The main focus IMO isn't extra power, but greater safety with lower charge temperatures. The extra power is a very nice bonus, though. 🙂 IMO it's worth the extra investment to better preserve the engine.
@shadowopsairman15832 жыл бұрын
The intercooler makes the charge denser
@Roddy_Zeh2 жыл бұрын
@@shadowopsairman1583 Yes, which increases power, since you have more oxygen in the same volume, which you can combine with more fuel to make more power. But I'd be installing an intercooler mainly for the extra longevity and safety. 🙂
@markstanard63062 жыл бұрын
@@Roddy_Zeh or the same amount of safety with more power 🤔
@Toys4Life2 жыл бұрын
Agreed but E85 doesn't seem to care. Pump gas needs an IC. Only 14 hp gain with the IC and all that decreased temp. Probably because that small IC core is restrictive to flow.
@btchhopperou812 Жыл бұрын
@@Toys4Life You may be correct- and anytime an effective IC can be used, I'd use it as a hedge against detonation, as it does do a good job of cooling the charge. I've read that too big an IC may cause a little bit more lag, but IMO, more is better than too small of an IC. If all else fails and E85 isn't a viable option, spray meth or a meth/h2o mixture. The methanal effectively raises the octane, while the misted water handles the charge cooling duties AND keeps the carbon to a minimum(and will clean a dirty combustion chamber). I've never seen anyone use E85 AND spray meth/alcohol at the same time tho, as I'd assume it's due to diminishing returns, although I'm not 100% certain about that. E85 is not convenient for all of us, but spraying meth is an easy, and likely less expensive alternative, regarding the setup of both.
@jacobburskey30442 жыл бұрын
Would be very interesting to see if the intercooler would have a much larger effect on power in a pump gas stock cam configuration, great testing as always
@garagecedric2 жыл бұрын
It would, making such a test on e85 removes half of the effect of the intercooler, since it could run close to mbt igntion even without IC.
@typedrew2 жыл бұрын
The gains would be even more pronounced. On 3800s be usually either do intercooler or e85. Not usually both. And end up around the same numbers with a cam.
@alfreddurbyn64211 ай бұрын
Intercooler is not only a little boost in horsepower but is dramatically a horsepower saver from the heat, great testing. Testing separates fact from myths thanks for your hard work.
@CHINGY19932 жыл бұрын
The test i have been waiting for. The IAT data for adding the intercooler and no other changes is what i have been waiting for. Thank you very much
@SenorYuk2 жыл бұрын
This makes me want to get back into 3800 stuff. I know its a junkyard motor theme but some day id love to see a combo like I had with higher compression and worked over heads. When I first built my 3800 and had problems with the intercooler coolant loop I could tell right away when there was an air bubble in the pump. Knock city almost immediately. It was such a rewarding engine to tinker with.
@BLAKizLurKin2 жыл бұрын
Thank you for creating videos about the 3.8l V6 L67 SC, especially with intercooler. Wow 415HP that's awesome!
@rorybaldrey2 жыл бұрын
Richard, love your work, keep it up. A couple comments on this video. The drop in AFR on the intercooled run wouldn't be from a misfire event, misfires cause the o2 sensor to read lean (not rich) due to the excess air (12+/- times the amount of air to fuel in this case) not consumed be the misfire event itself. You mention the AFRs being close to each other in both configurations, afrs aren't significant to the power output on a fuel injected system, unless there is an outlying misunderstood issue, for instance a poor flowing injector. Power output should remain the same from somewhere in the range of 10.8:1 all the way to low 13s. Obviously we run lower afrs for cylinder temp control. Where is the IAT sensor? Did the Meth make less power due to the a rise in intake air temp (less dense charge) traveling though the supercharger, intake manifold and intake port?
@BassManBobBassCovers2 жыл бұрын
Consistent 100 degree difference! 15hp gain overall, but once the non-intercooled supercharger heat soaks, IAT's go up, you hit the compensation table with reduced timing losing up to 50hp makes it almost a 65hp gain theoretically. Depending on horsepower loss with maximum reduced timing.
@jplperformance9073 Жыл бұрын
Very well said
@rancherlee2 жыл бұрын
Water to air and ice in the tank makes for a great supercharged/turbo bracket racer and almost completely eliminates Altitude Density swings. I have the pump on a toggle switch and flip on the pump between the burnout and staging to conserve the ice.
@syzfilms2 жыл бұрын
I knew Richard almost 30 years ago at Extrude Hone. He's the real deal. Still one of the hardest working, knowledgeable men in the industry.
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
I MISS THOSE GUYS
@btchhopperou812 Жыл бұрын
I recently started watching him and I CANNOT believe Richard's work ethic and obvious love for what he does- we are fortunate to have his knowledge as well as the rather extensive library he's created along the way! IDK where else you could find that- and he doesn't seem to mind answering my most basic of questions... or telling a person if something will not work either. Straight up guy for sure!
@harryfp1494 Жыл бұрын
@@btchhopperou812 pretty crazy huh this guys the beezzzzkneezzz this information is detrimental to my next build
@btchhopperou812 Жыл бұрын
@@harryfp1494 Complicates things... just a little bit LOL!
@madmod Жыл бұрын
Extrude hone does some cool stuff. Porting the unportable!
@254967conwell11 ай бұрын
I was happy to find out how easy it was to install ZZP new full size intercooler with the dual pass heat exchanger and also equally as happy to look at my Aeroforce scan gauge and see no KR with a 3.0 pulley when before I was getting KR with a 3.4 pulley I also swapped out the pump that came with the setup with a higher volume pump. Its a bit louder but not a deal breaker. Its the piece of mind I was looking for and the billet fuel rails look good
@NOS2FAST4U2 жыл бұрын
Loving it …. Much needed dyno info cuz there is not much out there … closely guarded power secrets ….
@carnage50x2 жыл бұрын
I understand this is on Dyno giving the ideal perfect environment. However, water/air heat exchangers on these cars still have very bad heat soak. You can get 4-5 good convective pulls running a heat exchanger. Where as no heat exchanger you've really only have 1 maybe 2 if it's cold outside. In a vehicle, the coolant system for the heat exchanger is quite small so it doesn't take much to heat up the fluid. On my car, I've added small rad fans (typically found off of dirtbikes) to the front mount. These fans truly make a significant difference. I can make multiple consecutive pulls and my IAT are still reasonable.
@shanerorko80762 жыл бұрын
If you're having this issue and fans make it better you're not getting any passive flow of air through the heat exchanger. The air flow offered by a cars movement at say 100kmh or 60mph is magnitudes greater than any airflow fans can provide. A common mistake people make when installing aftermarket exchangers is assuming they work with positive pressure. This in fact wrong and no amount of air ramming will fix the issue. You need a pressure differential across the core so you need the egine bay to create negative pressure. If you examine OE cars you will find there is plastic all around the radiator to separate the engine bay from the front side of the car. This creates a high pressure zone on the front side and a negative pressure zone on the back side of the radiator allowing air to flow. I would imagine your intercoolers radiator is getting postive pressure behind it and you've bainaid fixed the issue with fans.
@MrScottt282 жыл бұрын
That intercooler is working real well! Wow!
@gmstudent932 жыл бұрын
My guess is that e85 is already taking up most of the heat, so there's no heat for the methanol to absorb. While the intercooler is making the air denser.
@zackchigo2 жыл бұрын
Awesome testing! This is almost the same as my build I did a while back. I was curious where I was and I was spot on with the 400/400 mark.
@benhowe20872 жыл бұрын
E85 is helping keep the intake temperature down. I bet the intercooler would be even more effective with pump gas.
@collin3800 Жыл бұрын
It shouldn't, on the supercharged 3800 the injectors are mounted on the intake port on the cylinder head, pretty far downstream from the blower.
@madmod Жыл бұрын
i think ethanol helps with Combustion temps, not so much IATs. The injector isnt far enough up stream to effectively cool the charge
@ebperformance843611 ай бұрын
My short stack intercooler made a huge difference….it allowed me to use a 3.4 pulley with 0 knock…..I was gonna change to a smaller pulley…..my 3.4 pulley gave me 10psi of boost. My conclusion is a intercooler itself might add a little HP, but it allows you to use upgrades, like smaller pulleys….ect.
@3800TURBO2 жыл бұрын
Used the same core to go 10s @3500lbs with the L67.
@ernestomiranda11222 жыл бұрын
I definitely felt the power loss after back to back runs in my old Regal GS. If only I would have had this information back then.
@hu3.7892 жыл бұрын
The reason that it doesn't make more power with water/methanol is that you introduce water into the fuel mix. Water contains no energy and takes up room in the combustion chamber. The gain you would gain in temperature reduction is offset by introducing water into the combustion chamber. If you're not going to add an intercooler, adding water/methanol is a good idea. You get more consistency in horsepower and torque. In addition, you get the benefit of cooling the air charge and it would allow adding more timing if running pump gas rather than E-85.
@177SCmaro2 жыл бұрын
What would happen then if you just ran methonal and didn't mix it with water?
@hu3.7892 жыл бұрын
@@177SCmaro - You would make more power. One problem with running straight methanol is that it is a hazardous material. That why Boost Juice or anything like it contains up to 49% methanol. Shipping hazardous material is expensive. Methanol fires can be dangerous because the flame is practically invisible and it has a very low flashpoint. It's safer and more practical to mix methanol with water.
@Hitman-ds1ei10 ай бұрын
Not true about the water as it's expansion rate increases compression ratio, if you think otherwise the go tell David Vizard he's wrong also !
@JacobLAChristenson2 жыл бұрын
When I built my 427 sbc with a vortech si trim blower made 665 no intercooler 730 intercooled on pump gas. Oh and with about a 1.5 pounds less boost. Going to a YSI trim next.
@EGGINFOOLS2 жыл бұрын
Headers were starting to glow on that l67. Sweet
@butlerweldingfabrication72092 жыл бұрын
GREAT VIDEO RICHARD. I LOVED IT. I THINK THE BOILS GAS LAWS WERE IN EFFECT HERE. i would like to see one double intercooled. 1 in the intake manifold and second one out side the intake manifold, cool though man .. very cool.
@SSDracerSD2 жыл бұрын
Good stuff man. Love the 3800 content 👌
@josephanders60522 жыл бұрын
Water suppresses flame travel speed I'd think and takes some of the heat that was pushing the piston. Richard do you do egt temps on all your dyno runs? Curious about more egt info vs intake temps ect
@collingill87854 ай бұрын
Water displaces air and fuel decreasing effective displacement as well as
@johnbrewer46192 жыл бұрын
Would you consider super/turbo with an Intercooler after the turbo, and the one after the supercharger? With temp sensors between everything. I would love to see the data on that!
@zd302gt2 жыл бұрын
What did the boost curve do with the intercooler?
@Toys4Life2 жыл бұрын
I think it dropped under the IC core due to the restrictive IC core. I think boost went UP above the IC core.
@petermuller1612 жыл бұрын
That intercooler really pulled a ton of heat!
@daviesdan18 Жыл бұрын
I think the power gain is from the intercooler cooling the air so much and we all know cold air is more dense. So more air with tune adding more fuel and timing you get more power...The methanol was just adding octane to the air not making the air more dense
@spacecase708 ай бұрын
Richard, I honestly believe the reason why you got more horsepower with the air cooler as opposed to the water meth injection is because of Plenum volume by adding the intercooler, you added more volume to the Plenum. Therefore, you had more air available and much better much better cooled air charge.
@richardholdener17278 ай бұрын
nope
@adamhulburt51402 жыл бұрын
If you look at the belt, at what's sounds like possibly 4,900 rpm, it has an unsteady vibration. It does the same slightly in a few other smaller power dips early too. I'm guessing the vibration is could be causing turbulence on air intake and possibly exhaust, leading to a sort of "blockage". Air pressure waves basically. It would be interesting to look into. An on-screen tach would be helpful in the future if possible.
@willsmith85862 жыл бұрын
I wonder if the Audi 3.0T supercharger can be adapted to the 3.8. It has two built-in "intercoolers"
@dogdue45887 ай бұрын
Yes, I agree! Any suggestions for brand or size?
@Letsgoooladdd7 ай бұрын
Yellaterra for w2a
@Ozarkprepper643 Жыл бұрын
Most engines most of the time spend their life just cruising. Mostly only needing boost during acceleration, or occasionally Towing or climbing. And for that gearing makes more sense. Nice thing about superchargers is they can be operated with a electric clutch. My bush plane has two superchargers with clutches feeding a stroked type 1. The superchargers are mostly only used for short takeoffs, and tricky Landings. I'd really like to see Dino runs with and without the supercharger engaged.
@Ozarkprepper643 Жыл бұрын
As far as intercoolers go. That's why I'm here. Considering using one for the 4.3 in the 75 Celica ST. And yes they are on clutches also. (2) I love the fabricate.lol But the extra horses from the intercooler would be welcome when playing hard.
@stephenalexander24272 жыл бұрын
I have a Terminator , they made engines with out a intercooler ? They don’t call them heatons for nothing
@GreaseMonkeyGarageTX2 жыл бұрын
I remember racing whipple swapped Terminators that barely got warm. Those heatons are exactly that.
@Matp3452 жыл бұрын
That's awesome. Definitely worth what ZZP is asking. I kinda wish I did go the l67 route for my s10.
@GreaseMonkeyGarageTX2 жыл бұрын
L67's are fine until you start breaking stuff. Parts can be a bit pricier and harder to come by. I loved my L67, but the LS platform is just so much better supported.
@Matp3452 жыл бұрын
@@GreaseMonkeyGarageTX I've seen a few higher HP 67s but never seen any issues. I've seen more problems on daily driven 67s that were neglected
@GreaseMonkeyGarageTX2 жыл бұрын
@@Matp345 once you start pushing them they break. Rings touch and you chip a piston. Forged pistons have a thicker ring grooze that helps a lot, but you are limited to a few options. The ARP kits were hard to come by, not sure if they still make them. Heads lift, head gaskets blow out, etc. I races an L67 for years and it was a blast, but not cheap or easy.
@shanerorko80762 жыл бұрын
I would think the power drop is a harmonic. Maybe disconnect the balance shaft and se if that helps?
@oldseabee54362 жыл бұрын
still dream of 3800sc swapped fiero
@kendrickwilliams36962 жыл бұрын
Just put a jdm 208 in my 02 wrx. Upgraded to STI pink inj. (565) Bigger charge pipe. Aem fuel pump and a tdo5 turbo. Looking for 300whp. Going to stick with stock intercooler.
@nathanhine2862 жыл бұрын
Love to know the differance as to why the Water Meth doesn't increase power but lowers charge temp.
@dutchylt6 күн бұрын
You attempted 1 of the 3 ways to interocool these engines. And these engines require very specific tuning. Look up Brushworks Slick Sixes.
@richardholdener17274 күн бұрын
they don't require specific tuning. The require tuning like any other motor (it's just timing an AF)
@richardfix39378 ай бұрын
I wonder if The dip is from so much torque. Being applied to the accessory drive belt. You can see the AC compressor starts to spin at higher rpms
@FieroAustin2 жыл бұрын
What temperature thermostat and spark plugs were you using? You guys should do more tests like these... Get a baseline With just a stock motor, and then do some of the common needed supporting changes as well like a lower temperature thermostat, and lower temperature spark plugs. Try a few different pulley sizes as well. And may be a phenolic spacer. That camshaft is not very common. And if you’re going to go big, try 2.8 inch pulley. The generation 3 heads have .030 inch larger diameter intake valves.
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
THE AC IS IN THE BELT LOOP, WE DON'T RUN A THERMOSTAT (THIS IS NOT A STREET CAR-IT'S DYNO), WE RAN DOWN TO A 2.6 PULLEY, i WOULD BE SURPRISED IF WE COULD MEASURE AND DIFFERENCE WITH A PHENOLIC SPACER-MAYBE IN A HEAT ENGINE BAY
@lindsaydempsey56832 жыл бұрын
Great video, would be curious to know if the boost pressure dropped with the IC in service.
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
YES
@Toys4Life2 жыл бұрын
@@richardholdener1727 I was amazed at how much is cooled the charge. Also would have thought that would have resulted in a lot more HP which tells me it must have been several PSI drop in boost due to the restriction of that small intercooler core. My conclusion would be that the IC is worth it with pump gas, maybe not worth it with E85. Curious what others think?
@danielwilson66652 жыл бұрын
@@Toys4Life … I was also impressed by the significant and consistent drop in temperature when using the I/C components. The psi loss across the core is minimal in most cases and shouldn’t have caused a very serious loss in power output. I also noticed how many people make a distinction between pump fuel and E85. I haven’t traveled out of the Atlanta area very much over the past couple of years so I can’t really comment on the availability of E85 in other parts of the country but locally it’s available at nearly every refueling station on every corner. Since 93 octane “pump fuel” and E85 come from the same pump, it will all be called pump fuel eventually 😁. Or so it would seem.
@vicmccartin2 жыл бұрын
The intercooler would have made a bigger difference on 91 octane, e85 is almost a intercooler itself
@sg34qw2 жыл бұрын
e85 is knock resistant at higher temps. if it was "almost an intercooler" you wouldnt see 214 degree IAT's non-intercooled.
@armcclure2 жыл бұрын
@@sg34qw eh.. the reality lies somewhere in the middle. The temp probe is before the E85 is introduced. E85 DOES significantly cool the air, but not until it's going through the port and into the cylinder, where we can't exactly measure it with a temp probe. But, you can calculate it.
@triplestangman2 жыл бұрын
@@armcclure e85 barely makes a difference when you have multi port injection. It makes a significant difference when carbureted or tbi.
@janilindroos36882 жыл бұрын
Single turbo with e85 blowthrough carb no IC. 25psi boost airtemp before carb is 210-220F. And below the carb 75-80
@armcclure2 жыл бұрын
@@triplestangman it makes a bigger MEASURABLE difference with TBI or carb. I understand what you're talking about, I've seen high-rise blow-through E85 turbo cars with condensation on the outside of the runners. That cooling effect still happens in a port injection setup. The fuel still has to change state to burn. We just don't have a temp probe inside of the combustion chamber.
@rodneykite88622 жыл бұрын
I'm guessing the intercooler would make this combo safe with 91/93 pump gas?
@jackrobinson96632 жыл бұрын
It would also be interesting to see what happened to the boost...
@johnbrewer46192 жыл бұрын
Would the Intercooler possibly pull heat away from the supercharger itself? Would be interesting to see the difference in the heat of the supercharger case
@jplperformance9073 Жыл бұрын
Good question, I was wondering the same??
@benhowe20872 жыл бұрын
The water meth injection is lowering the amount of air fuel mixture by adding an inert element. Water. This is displacing air and decreasing the amount of available oxygen?
@tech13022 жыл бұрын
How about a I/c 93 vs non e85? To me the biggest gain on the I/c is like you said consistency but also being able to run pump gas especially on the street.
@tomkelley110011 ай бұрын
I built one of those before zzp did for a guy in Illinois and Wisconsin. 2001ish
@idriwzrd2 жыл бұрын
The dip in Tq corresponds with the dip in A/F. I wonder what might connect the two. Spark gap too large, weak coils... ? Is this motor going into the Nova? The methanol, while decreasing intake temps, also displaces some of the air that can be mixed with fuel to make power.
@michellee83692 жыл бұрын
The dip i believe was the transition point of the airflow efficiency within the intake circuit
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
it was the dyno-its fixed
@kristiangronberg31502 жыл бұрын
Personally I think having gauges is really important in any scratchy build, you spend countless hours of time to build your car and then blow it up on one weekend...if running boost, not only a boost guage on the dash but also a charge temp guage. it might let you know when it's time to let her cool down for a minute, and it definitely makes you feel even more dumb when you keep oon pushing even when you know it's too hot and blow's up 🤣🤣🤣
@merylpelosi848517 күн бұрын
Gale Banks claims that charge cooling to add density make more power than increased boost does.
@samisdfosko13202 жыл бұрын
Good Video Richard. Would it possible to know following things aswell (also any other upcoming intercooler tests): Water temp IN and OUT to intercooler (along with IAT temp curve) + used pump/water GPM to understand efficiency of intercooler. Also try get video camera which is supporting 1080p or 4K :)
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
SHOT ON MY PHONE, DONT HAVE A SEPERATE WATE RPUMP, JUST THE DYNO-WE REGULATE THE FLOW WITH A VALVE, WATER IN WAS 68 DEGREES
@deanstevenson65272 жыл бұрын
3:25 the 4800 to 5000 harmonic ramp is just like I've seen on the RB25 and 26. On the DOHC Nissan it's at 3700 rpm, and it's from the ignition pickup and the belt driven cam harmonics. On the 3800 V6, it's most likely from the crank shaft pulley to belt. Probably slip, Maybee from the G rotor oil pump loads. On some engines, you get fuzz from certain RPMS. Ford's 120 degree F1 during development had a pinout problem with its EECIV, which created a lash Ariel which returned an incorrect voltage to the Crank position sensor. Prox sensors can fail due to alignment issues at certain revs. Happened to my mates 1967 turbo SEFI Holley HP managed 3.3 liter Ford on line six.
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
IT'S THE DYNO-WE FIGURED IT OUT
@keything84872 жыл бұрын
why does the video of the engine running on dyno sound weird? couldn't hear the vaaarooom vaaroom?...maybe its my computer speakers......... great video as always !!!
@rcairforceone2 жыл бұрын
This combo would be a ball in a GTP or Park Avenue Ultra! How much height does it add?
@GreaseMonkeyGarageTX2 жыл бұрын
It's a blast and it all fits under the hood
@sg34qw2 жыл бұрын
2-2.5"
@JC-gw3yo2 жыл бұрын
Richard, could you please slow down the intro pictures. Give us a chance to absorb what is on the test stand
@braydencool8070 Жыл бұрын
In Australia we have the L67 RWD in a few different Holden commodore/Statesman models (Vs Vx VY) etc…
@TurboTimZZP2 жыл бұрын
I wished you showed the boost drop, and then added a smaller pulley to get it back to the original PSI for additional power gains.
@SenorYuk2 жыл бұрын
Anecdote ahead: I had a similar setup (build shortblock with 9.5:1 pistons and an overdrive crank pulley)and while I could run a 2.8", it ran best on a 3". But I guess thats closer to a 2.6 with a stock crank pulley so i guess this whole reply is moot! Lol.
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
WE KNOW ADDING BOOST ADDS POWER
@EGGINFOOLS2 жыл бұрын
I much prefer this style video. I feel like I'm in the shop with you.
@LunarOutlawsGarage2 жыл бұрын
What a cliffhanger on this one. Why didn’t you gain any of power with the injection? Your leaving me on the edge of my seat
@ElPants212 жыл бұрын
Maybe the water/meth was less of a consistent mixture in terms of temp and AFR compared to just uniformly cooler air? How did thr intercooler change the boost pressure vs water/meth?
@michaelclanton11522 жыл бұрын
I run a TBS intercooler on a roots w/14# 446" and yes it works.I also had 100* drop in IAT and gained 100hp as a result.
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
gained 100 hp?
@michaelclanton11522 жыл бұрын
@Richard Holdener yes,on the dyno 1st no water in intercooler then water minutes later and was the result.
@colinbastow98902 жыл бұрын
Water/methanol converts the sensible heat to latent heat but also adding the volume of the vapor from from the injected liquid. The intercooler removes heat and allows for a denser charge and more mass of air into the engine resulting in more power. The water/methanol inject will lower temperatures but won't effectively add more mass of air going into the engine.
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
BINGO
@johniesmith76728 ай бұрын
I know a air to water. Intercooler is very efficient but I have always wondered if instead of water running alcohol fuel Through it, alcohol fuel stays super cold all the time Even if it it's been sitting out on a hot day it's still cold If it was pumped from a separate reservoir down through let's say a transmission cooler Mounted in front of the radiator and then pump through the intercooler, I would imagine that would be super-efficient.
@richardholdener17278 ай бұрын
never a good idea to run volatile liquid through the cooler
@patlandymore70352 жыл бұрын
My guess is that water going through the supercharger is consuming a portion of the total available mass flow. Because the supercharger is driven by a fixed ratio system there is less available room/flow for additional air/mass of any kind??…compounded by the fact the water vaporizes and thus expands on its journey thru the supercharger making the situation a bit worse. A really interesting test would be to remove the intercooler and jury rig the six fuel nozzles above it, but behind the throttle plate to confirm the evaporation cooling of E85 through a blower. But perhaps as all too often, I’m barking up the wrong tree… Cheers 🍻
@AdamOpheim2 жыл бұрын
So when you did the water/meth test on this motor and went from 190* temps to 105* temps. Why didn't you pick up similar HP/TQ? Is it because the IAT sensors data is junk when the thermistor bulbs are wetted by water/meth?
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
OR BECAUSE THE WATER METH DID NOT INCREASE THE NUMBER OF OXYGEN MOLECULES PRESENT AND DID DISPLACE AIRFLOW
@AdamOpheim2 жыл бұрын
@@richardholdener1727 If that's the case the spraying pre turbo should alleviate that somewhat as its cooling the air as its being compressed and upping the efficiency of the turbo itself. Have you done any pre turbo vs post tests?
@jeremyparsons29442 жыл бұрын
the methanol/water mix not wanting to compress in the s/c lobes causing enough drag/parasitic loss to counter the cool charge temp gains?
@totensiebush2 жыл бұрын
I'd love to see a test of how effective charge cooling is on a methanol setup making decent power. I know the methanol guys usually don't run any charge cooling, to save weight, so I'd love to see how much power they're giving up.
@scottr28982 жыл бұрын
i ran meth 93 octane, ported heads, 42# injectors, 1.95 yt rockers, 90 lb springs, gen 5 with 3.0 pulley and intercooled with ported lim. that blower never got hot once i sprayed meth. was able to run 21º max wot timing at 13 psi. i know of guys who ran a 2.55 pulley and the same set up as in the vid. making 16 or so psi and 28º wot timing. hes running the afr to lean for one, should be mid 11's. 12's are to lean.
@totensiebush2 жыл бұрын
@@scottr2898 I meant running straight methanol rather than water/meth injection, and preferably something a little more modern.
@scottr28982 жыл бұрын
@@totensiebush ill let ya know when my 5th gen camaro gets meth added. going straight meth with a alky kit. got a friend with similar mods as me making 700 wheel with meth, more boost and timing is all hes got over me. and im at 600 wheel.
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
TUNERS BE LIKE
@danielwilson66652 жыл бұрын
@@richardholdener1727 …. Well yes they do….
@hugieflhr032 жыл бұрын
Maybe valvetrain harmonics worked itself out or maybe the header savaging isn’t optimized to cause that dip and then it pushes through it. I’m assuming you aren’t using a knock sensor.. if you are, that would be the first place I’d look at.
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
ITS NOT KNOCK
@MercedesE63S-AMG Жыл бұрын
I don't know why these cars ever came without intercoolers. Every supercharged or turbo car I've ever owned had an intercooler except for my Fiero GT which has a 3800 SC GTP series 2 motor in it. I've thought about adding one but in a Fiero GT I don't know what & all it is going to take to do it. I guess I have to run the intercooler all the way to the front of the car but the only way to run piping up there is probably going along where the radiator piping is ran. 🤷
@BeansAndHermie2 жыл бұрын
Weird as it is to say i think plenum volume may have somthing to do with the power pickup on this one 🤔
@plumbs71992 жыл бұрын
With the water meth , did it have the same mbt timing ? Other than that , it seems water meth has the same impact on hp on motors that I’ve seen as well? Possibly the water is displacing fuel that adds power , with water that does the opposite? I guess with knock ears you could possibly over come with more timing and find mbt for water /meth . ??
@scca142 жыл бұрын
Hey Richard love your energy and ALL your content, I curious about the electronic side of the 3800SC, did you run a stand alone harness for it? And if so could you give some info on who does that harness work I'm wanting to swap a l67 or l32 in my 94 grand prix STE
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
WE USED A HOLLEY HP
@topdrivejesus2 жыл бұрын
It would also be interesting to see if the clutch dragging on the AC compressor cost any hp…..
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
ITS NOT DRAGGING
@1BigDaDo11 ай бұрын
That dip is the chart is from the dyno you can hear the engine straining around that rpm on the acceleration.
@dondotterer242 жыл бұрын
The dip maybe the design of the head intake ports?
@sandvick12 жыл бұрын
I'd be Interested to see how far down of pulley you can go down to before you see the efficiency of the blower fall off. I'd like to see you go all the way down to a 2.8, 2.6 and 2.4" pulley.
@sg34qw2 жыл бұрын
same. I have the parts to drop to a 2.6 on my gen 5'd l67 on e85. But i'd like to see the full data before moving forward. I'm at a 3.0/ic/e85 right now
@GreaseMonkeyGarageTX2 жыл бұрын
Eaton used to have the VE tables on their website for the M90. At some point you need to port the blower and that stock throttle body is like breathing through a straw. I daily drove mine on a 2.8 pulley with all the supporting mods, anything smaller needs race gas to keep KR in check and you need a belt wrap kit.
@sg34qw2 жыл бұрын
@@GreaseMonkeyGarageTX hes running the gen 5 though, not a whole lot to port there. He also has the gen 5 throttle body which is basically the same opening as the northstar if i remember. Would be more to gain if he was still on a gen 3. I've looked at the VE charts eaton posts and even a 3.0 pulley is wayyyy off their chart. Unless i'm reading it wrong
@sandvick12 жыл бұрын
I ran my 1.9rr, Intercooled, e85, nitrous125shot l32 down to a 2.4 pulley before before going turbo. I ran an 8 rib setup after going to a 2.6. I was also on stock cam so I only revved it out to 6000rpm.
@sg34qw2 жыл бұрын
@@sandvick1 i was actually basing my 2.6 build off of yours, to be honest. I always see people saying don't go lower that a 3.0 pulley just because "everyone" tells you not to, but no actual proof to back that up. I tend to see for myself in situations like that.
@dogdue45887 ай бұрын
Is there a percentage of improvement, running the E-85? Thanks.
@brettschacher8644 Жыл бұрын
I'm looking for a used Gen3 cooler core to put under my charger. Thinking someone out there has put a Gen 3 in and later maybe swapped for a Gen 5 arrangement. I also have some extra Gen 3 complete chargers on hand I would turn loose of. I know everyone would like to have the latest greatest piece but the cost of these and availability is not putting them out there in excess supply #'s.
@thomaseverley38472 жыл бұрын
Didn't pick up extra power with water/methanol vs the intercooler due to the air displacing effect of the water/methonal
@b20vtec832 жыл бұрын
I think the reason for the inconsistency and not showing the true potential of water/meth injection is due to the fact that using boost juice or any premix product, the meth content varies. Plus the positioning of the nozzle, The further away you have it to the valve the more time it has to atomise and the particles remain in suspension not clumping up into water droplets. And the best ratio of water meth to fuel is typically between 12.5% percent to 25% of total injector flow for any given load at any given RPM. For example in my Honda Civic Type R on the K20c1 engine I have for 1056 cc injectors from the factory and 1 1000cc water meth nozzle. Which works out to be about 23% water meth to Total Fuel flow capable of all the injectors combined. The nozzle is placed at least 42 inches away from the furtherest valve being at the number one cylinder there's plenty of distance for the mixture to atomise. And I typically see on average an air intake temperature of 10°c/50°f to 25°c/77°f. And this is done with a 50/50 water meth ratio. Maybe hit up Scott F Williams on the water methanol injection page on Facebook this guy has been doing it for years and is a pro at it
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
THE ATOMIZATION IS NOT WHY
@b20vtec832 жыл бұрын
@@richardholdener1727 I'm stumped then then what would it be🤷
@b20vtec832 жыл бұрын
@@richardholdener1727 maybe the overall methanol content? As meth has a higher rate of evaporation than water which helps evaporative cooling...
@codithheretic1102 жыл бұрын
I'm looking at an old log of my twin screw 3800 running around 20psi. This frame at 6000rpm has 326f on the pre-cooled temp and 193f after cooling - still hot as hell but good improvement. I know before I put thermocouple probes in, i had melted the plastic guard on the old gm IAT sensor installed in the lower intake :o
@SenorYuk2 жыл бұрын
My dream setup was always to ditch the Gen V and go with a whipple.
@jplperformance90732 жыл бұрын
I'd love a tvs rotor pack for genvm90 or some twin screw
@AwesomeFinish Жыл бұрын
14hp is not "dramatic".. lol. But I bet when that blower gets heat soaked under a hood, the effectiveness of that intercooler will really shine.
@johnlewis81562 жыл бұрын
Great test ! Glad you did it!!!
@MrZX12062 жыл бұрын
If you are still playing with the 3.8, I’d love to know what only water injection does in your meth kit.
@louisbabycos1063 ай бұрын
I would love to see this repeated with a bone stock , factory tuned 3800 on pump gas . How much does this add if any to a stock 3800:sc factory tuned if any ? Then the same test with mild ecu tuning but no physical tuning mods again on pump gas .
@richardholdener17273 ай бұрын
why limit what the intercooler has to offer
@177SCmaro2 жыл бұрын
What happens if you have a water/methonal kit but you just put methanol in it?
@4739-g9c2 жыл бұрын
Richard! On a carburetor, Why would you have to adjust jetting for elevation but not for blowthrough boosting?
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
YOU DO USUALLY HAVE TO ADJUST JETTING FOR BOOST-BUT THERE IS ALSO A BIG CHANGE IN SIGNAL WITH BOOST (WHICH DETERMINE FUEL FLOW)
@blanchae9 ай бұрын
It seems that the "rule of thumb" is 1 percent increase in HP for every 10 deg cooler. Or roughly 10 percent for the 100 degF change. 400 hp x 1.10 = 440 hp with the intercooler. I wonder if the intercooler is restricting the intake.
@blanchae9 ай бұрын
I came across this article which uses a formula directly relating intake air temperature and hp. According to the math, I would expect at least a 33 hp gain at 6100 rpm.
@richardholdener17279 ай бұрын
temp alone doesn't change power
@actionjksn2 жыл бұрын
I would not boost an engine without an intercooler. It's just too much improvement to not add that. You're already spending a significant amount of money. And it even protects the engine and maybe even the turbo itself.
@FACEBOOKS-WBDS8 ай бұрын
OK your the man to ask.....What if I rerouted the ac lines to use the intercooler as the evaporator for the ac...Yes I know i would have no AC IN THE CAR.. but what would it do for the motor?
@richardholdener17278 ай бұрын
colder is better but you still have losses from driving the compressor
@anthonymacaluso14882 жыл бұрын
Id say you made more with the intercooler because of the added volume in the intake manifold
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
no
@anthonymacaluso14882 жыл бұрын
@@richardholdener1727 what's your guess, I thought since it had a longer style plenum it picked up. What's your thoughts
@steveauston882 жыл бұрын
Hi. Just wonder what you think regarding the drop in the middle of the power curve. i assume you are still using the balance shaft because you mentioned your still using a chain tensioner.so i was thinking that the balance shaft may be sucking power at that rpm due to some sort of harmonic clash.?? maybe. is it possible for you to test a no balance shaft set up ? a few guys are doing this set up to run double row chains so i'm curious to see if it affect the motor in ways apart from balance..
@ChurchAutoTest2 жыл бұрын
How much did your boost change Richard? Or will we be seeing that in the next test where you start to pulley up the blower?
@richardholdener17272 жыл бұрын
I DIDN'T LOG IT UNFORTUNATELY, BUT IT SEEMED (VISUALLY ON THE GAUGE) TO DROP SLIGHTLY
@rogerweiland63842 жыл бұрын
The intercooler adds plenum volume, that's probably where the 15 hp came from for the most part.