Fitting 1958 Pattern 'Kidney' Pouches, The One Correct Method?

A video discussing the fitting of the 1958 Pattern rear or 'kidney' pouches.
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[@RiflemanMoore]

1958 Pattern Fitting Instructions - www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1958/fi.html Bex bugoutsurvivor's video - kzbin.info/www/bejne/apazeX2Fhcuofrs

[@j24530959]

The way he has put the pouches together would make it very uncomfortable to wear.why would he dye and startch it.

[@allanshillinglaw3083]

Hi mate, hope you are well I joined in ‘89 and done 13 years in the Royal Engineers and was trained up in my basic with 58 webbing, and it was your method of attaching the kidney pouches that we were taught. This was indeed to facilitate the need to quick release them if necessary, which was required on a regular basis when switching from fighting order to skeleton order for small arms training and such like. Keep up the good work mate, All the best, Allan

[@RiflemanMoore]

All well here Allan, thank you, hope you are too! And thanks for the information, certainly building up a picture of use from all these responses.

[@allanshillinglaw3083]

@@RiflemanMoore no problem at all bud, glad I could be of assistance. All the best, Allan

[@pierevojzola9737]

Hi, I have used the 37, 44, 58 pattern plus the US webbing (and tossed it and went back to 58 pattern in N’am).. When using the 58 pattern in the Paras we tended to toss out the mess tins as we carried two water bottles and the metal mugs for brewing and washing. We also added to the webbing a spade or a pick and helve, bayonet, and a poncho carrier on top of the kidney pouches where we also rolled up a light weight blanket with the poncho. The kidney pouches were use mainly to carry 2 - 3 days rations, the webbing pouches carried SLR mags, inside pockets of the smock we carried extra Bren mags, couple of smoke or phosphorus grenades in the front braces, 2 belts of 7.62 ammo, Energa projector and a couple of rockets wherever you could tie them on in the back braces. You packed your gear for the drop and then you unpacked and packed it again! Try running with all that on! Still it was easier to lie down flat to the ground then all the other webbing I have ever been issued with and worth while keeping with three different armies!

[@davehopkin9502]

I never saw the Bex method in 7 years, we always did it the way you illustrate with the addition of some black insulation tape on the ends of the tab

[@99IronDuke]

Yep you put enough insulation tape over the ends so they could NOT slide out. I don't ever remember detaching the pouches from the belt. Insulating tape was often used to tidy up and secure loose bits of webbing. Once you had it adjusted to fit you, you made it as secure as possible. I cannot think of many occasions when a infantry soldier in the field would want to ditch his kidney pouches anyway. That said other people might have done it other ways.

[@chaz8758]

@@99IronDuke We originally removed the kidney pouches in junior leaders when wearing our bergans (1983, tp Sgt was ex 59 Cdo Falklands Vet who got them for us cheap), supposed to help them fit correctly, soon stopped though.

[@andrewjohnston4127]

@@chaz8758 huh, my troop Sgt was ex 59 too and told us the same thing 😁 you at Dover too?

[@99IronDuke]

​@@chaz8758 It was many moons ago, but it was pretty common to ditch packs on exercises before a attack, etc and also not to have them for patrols and what not. I remember doing a anti armour ambush on a excercise once for about 48 hours (?) with a Charlie G, winter, no packs and no sleeping bags and it pissed down with rain constantly, we had two or three blokes get hyperthermia. Lol.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Interesting reading chaps, thank you al for the input!

[@andyleighton6969]

All seems vaguely familiar, but I'm impressed at the old and bold saying with confidence how they fitted their kidney pouches. I've slept [many, many, times] since then and I don't imagine I stripped down and fully rebuilt CEFO a handful of times in all the years I had it!

[@flatmoon6359]

If in an Infantry Battalion, you probably stayed with same Company,if in Corp setup i.e.Signals, Ordnance, you could move every 2 years, with every Squadron having different rules. I went from strictly 58 with large pack,to mix and match, with Bundeswehr bergan in a year and back again.

[@seanosborne4028]

Spot on as an old soldier this the way i was taught how to do it, thanks for sharing. Keep up the good work brother

[@j24530959]

The way you put the kidney pouches on is right, the other guy seems to think he knows more than us the wore it, the way he talks he is saying all the instructors that taught us have been doing it wrong all these years, yeah right lol.

[@richardbaxter2057]

Back in ‘83, I came across an NCO who had his belt order made up of a variety of pouches. One kidney pouch was done away with, the remaining containing his mess tins plus brew kit and biscuits. The remaining pouches were ammo plus two water bottle. All pouches were sown together through the sides, making a very stable and compact belt order with no gaps, save for where the belt buckle is located. The priority was for ammo, water and a greater number of individual pouches in which to break down his requirements.

[@andrewmacdonald1897]

Used 58 pattern webbing for all my army service (infantry) and I was taught and continued to attach the kidney pouches in the manner you suggested. Great videos by the way.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Thanks Andrew. Good to have the regulation fitting confirmed once again.

[@Jeffybonbon]

we used to put the ponch roll on top of the pouches and Bungee up the lot LOL

[@richthompson1234]

1977 to 1988, I was taught your method of fixing the kidney pouches, I served in an infantry battalion and an training instructor, never saw anyone fit kidney pouches using Bex's method!!! That said, in the field many of us used roll/pin buckles instead of the issue male/female buckle, this was for ease of adjustment of the belt when putting on jumpers or the issue body warmer. Another variation was the use of water bottle pouches instead of kidney pouches, especially prized was the water bottle pouch fastened with a push through and twist metal fastening (don't recall the correct name for this type of fastening). Metal mugs were also sought after items, with a piece of black masking tape (aka Harry Black maskers) to protect lips from getting burnt 😅😅😅. Nice vids, bring the memories flooding back. 👍

[@mickfifty]

I wore the 58 pattern webbing in the Army cadets (1975-79) and in the TA 4 RGJ (1979-82) and we were always shown your method and just used black insulating tape on the ends to secure the tabs (not the plastic type of tape you get today but the old fabric type). We also moved the bum roll onto the top of the kidney pouches and clipped it to the ammo pouches and then wrapped bungees around the bum roll and kidney pouches to get every thing to move as one when you were running or moving

[@chrislye8912]

You’re talking about black and nasty mate, basically duct tape. Insulation tape is for insulating conductors..

[@adlerarmory8382]

They still make the cotton fabric 20mm wide "Friction Tape" here in the USA, the use of that by us goes back to WWII Airborne using it to silence the M1936 webbing, brass snap hooks and D rings.

[@spook44]

I used 58 pattern webbing for the first three or four years of my army service and never saw pouches attached the way Bex shows. It seems unnecessarily complicated, prevents their (intended) quick release and would be impossible to do when the kit is either wet or has the ammunition pouches attached to the belt. Your original sources are the correct way to do this

[@gunner678]

It was the way I was taught. Otherwise the quick release gives way when least expected, especially with heavily worn kit. I wore the damn stuff for ten years of my 25 years service, hated the stuff. The replacement was far better, but still needed tweaking.

[@Quaker521]

Never, ever, seen anyone use that second method of attaching the kidney pouches, only the way that you did it. Incidentally we would never had dropped our kidney pouches as the whole belt kit contained everything needed for 24 hours.

[@jakebrowncollection1772]

Great video mate and thanks for the mention. Also I'm totally in agreement with you bex's method may be more secure but would be incredibly uncomfortable and the statement of this is the official method is what prompted me to send his vid to you. 👍

[@RiflemanMoore]

Glad you enjoyed and most welcome, cheers Jake.

[@gijake1989]

THATS WHAT THAT SECOND CLIP IS FOR! It's been bugging me for a while now. Thanks.

[@robc67]

I served from '85-'97 and used 58 pattern for most of that time. My method was the same as yours but with the addition of tape around the end to stop the straps coming back through the loops, certainly never seen or heard of the second method. Of course as some people have pointed out most of us made changes to the standard look, for me i replaced the kidney pouches with water bottle pouches which still at a squeeze mess tins would fit, one part of the two tins in each pouch, filled with the normal kit. Such as wash kit, boot kit, spare socks, foot powder, hexi cooker, food, etc. I think i was able to get 3 maybe 4 water bottle pouches in the space left by the kidney pouches. Having smaller tighter pouches meant less chance of rattles by items inside moving around, but still have the storage. All of these nicely wrapped with a singular bungee cord fixed from the right ammo pouch to the left ammo pouch...so better for when running etc.

[@planes124]

I love videos like this its pretty interesting and that alternative way to attaching the webbing pouches looks very strong and clearly works

[@williammurray3914]

Never used the Bex method,never ever heard of it ,remember this is Squaddies we’re talking about here.Bad enough trying to thread straps through when it was dry,never mind when wet.

[@DevilbyMoonlight]

not the way I did it in my time, but as soon as was out of basic I didnt use kidney pouches anyway - not seen anyone else do it that way either tbh- but it does look to have some merit as it seems secure and lines up nicely - one of the failings with the kidney pouches was when they were weighted (in training the CEFO webbing was 35 lbs) the top tabs would bend and pop out without reinforcement so you were no better off than using the early extra bouncy pouches

[@andrewjohnston4127]

So the idea of being quick detachable goes out the window then 😂

[@RiflemanMoore]

Yeah, exactly, had me wondering!

[@tommyjm9]

@@RiflemanMoore From the limited use I had with 58 gear, we never really saw a need to remove them quickly. In theory you could take them of for skill at arms trg but that was in slow time, the reality was they tended to remain in place.

[@66kbm]

@@tommyjm9 Ditto. When in place.....In the 80's at least....they stayed there.

[@gunner678]

Kidney pouches were horrible things. The whole kit was useless once wet. We made it work all the same as British soldiers always do.

[@Rokaize]

Matthew Dobbs was it really that bad? I’m sure as the man using it it can get annoying. But it seems like it’s so widely copied and used al over the world that it must have SOME positive, right?

[@gavinkempsell5211]

I seem to recall getting shown the Bex bugoutsurvivor's way to do it when I was in the TA in the late 80's early 90's but TBH that was over 30 years ago, it would certainly explain the 'extra' bits of strapping.

[@michaelstephanides1854]

Paras attached kidney pouches differently, that fitted the pouches lower than the standard method. Belt straps went up instead of down and connected to the yoke strap eyelets. Very secure.

[@mikescott6767]

In your method, the 2 surplus metal rings (one either side) were used to attach what we called the "bum roll" which had a rolled up poncho in. It was very uncomfortable with the "bum roll" hitting the backs of your legs when running. after training most squaddies used to attach the bum roll to the top of the kidney pouches with bungies.

[@patricklamshear1806]

Great piece of kit ⚔️⚔️⚔️

[@haalstaag]

Only ever used kidney pouches in training. Once I got to battalion, it was encouraged to use water bottle pouches. We also used to put the poncho roll (with NBC suit in) on top of your pouches. I had a lightweight camo poncho that rolled up very small that fitted in a pouch. Also had a liner fitted to the inside that I bought to stop webbing burns.

[@davidbrennan660]

Nothing stirs up a video than variations or bold statements on the adjustment of obsolete pieces of personal equipment .

[@RiflemanMoore]

Seemingly so!

[@tomkyle5213]

Most users of 58 pattern ditched the kidney pouches and replaced them with extra water bottle pouches, leaving mess tins in the rucksack and using a metal mug for cooking.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Indeed, though that does depend on the specific time period, 1958 Pattern was after all in use for over 35 years by some. The practice you describe certainly became very common later in its service life and is something I have recreated elsewhere.

[@Tconcept]

Most units in the 80's had a standing order of equipment and where it was to be carried. There was only CEMO and CEFO, only difference was the backpack. Sure you could add extra water bottle pouches in the gaps, but you couldn't discard your kidney pouches, your kit was always inspected.

[@auscam6666]

the method you show was the way i first set up a set without any assistance mind you, as an Aussie familiar with the M56 kit thats the way it seemed to go for me. The Bex method is a bit iffy and would make the set uncomfy to wear. Forgive me but the way you show is the way i've seen in the OSPREY book and the MOD manual i have also. To allow the most easiest way to remove the kidney pouches from your kit if you didn't want them for a short patrol or for drill order etc. Which was the original thought behind the set up.

[@davidalexander8649]

Worn that kit for many. Years but never used that method. I think this is just someone using his initiative! Personally, I always used a Bungee on my 58 gear , using the poncho attachment points on left/right ammo. Pouches , over the gas mask , water bottle and threaded through the top closures on the kidney pouches. It stopped bounce, and on a tab you could also just pull the bungee ends over the ammo pouches and then webbing was very tight against the body. Good for Double time.

[@andrewjohnston4127]

And no,I've never seen that method during the time I used 58 pattern webbing. Sure it looks secure but the pouches are designed to be taken off when not needed

[@keithmacdonal2466]

Used 58 webbing very late in its life. Was taught to use bex method without passing belt through the loop if that makes sense. It maintained quick release functionality with reduced risk of accidental kidney pouch removal. On leading recruit training, first unit was issued with 90 pattern in dpm.

[@keithmacdonal2466]

Leaving

[@chaz8758]

@@keithmacdonal2466 Never saw the bex method, we used tape to secure all quick release and dangling straps, with tape on the ends it pulled straight out still

[@harry9392]

I served for 22 years never seen the second way of putting kidney pouches. but it could be some unit Found a way of securing the pouches i must say it looks very secure

[@Albireo8]

The Bex method is quite alien to me. I was given a brand new set of 58 in 1983 when I joined the TA. It was VERY stiff. But despite that it kept falling to bits when using your technique (the official one) so we used to use black insultation tape to hold stuff in place AND managed to double over the ends of the tabs so they would stay put. Also we put much insul tape around the inside corners of the ammo pouches to stop the rigid new 58 pattern stuff rubbing the inside of your thighs when used. I wore that stuff for nearly 10 years and it never fell apart again!

[@deltafoxtrot2]

I cannot remember exactly how we attached the pouches, however we didn't jettison anything attached to the belt as this was for combat equipment fighting order CEFO. The yoke/ belt/ was supposed to hold enough ammo/water/food for 24hrs plus the respirator. Below the belt at the rear was the poncho holder which would also hold the NBC suit, it was a tight fit..😊 Extra gear with the Combat Equipment Marching Order CEMO (Large pack, sleeping bag etc) would be ditched before an attack The story I was told that the poncho roll could be released, however I doubt it could be as it clipped to the D rings on the belt.

[@RiflemanMoore]

I think the quick release feature of the rear pouches was used somewhat very early on, there are quite a few photos of soldiers on exercise during the '60s with them removed. I've not managed to confirm the reasoning though.

[@rexbarron4873]

We KIwis made it up as we went along. US shoulder straps and belt, UK '58 ammo pouches ( for SLR mags) with three US water bottle pouches that had to soaked and stretched to accommodate the Brit "58 aluminium water bottles. Having the '58 water bottle pouches banging around your arse in a contact is hindrance. We felt sorry for Aussies in Vietnam because they were issued the '36 pattern ammo pouches.

[@ianhouston4424]

The Bex method does not allow for the fitting of the poncho roll carrier. The D-rings on the belt are for the hanging spring clips on the top of the poncho roll carrier; the flatter loop rings on the long tail of the kidney pouches are for the spring clips on the side tensioner straps on the poncho carrier. Moreover, having the straps lying on the inside of the belt will be positioned just on the point of the hips - where it will rub and be uncomfortable. On a side note: with the upper retaining straps pulling the top of the kidney pouches upright and holding them against the braces, it creates a shelf for the bottom of the Large Pack to sit upon, transferring some of the weight of the pack onto the hips.

[@vonsprague7913]

It's unit specific, armoured infantry in the 80's had problems when debussing from apcs and that's where it comes from. In the mid to late 80's we regularly removed kidney pouches for guard duties and urban patrolling keeping two water bottles and ammo pouches. Using this method creates raised points which would be hot spots in an aleeady uncomfortable system.

[@wendyharbon7290]

My partner and former RA Gunner too, he used the first shown method, with a few personal touches, to make it more secure. But he says, that came from use on operations and training exercises too. Or you learning as you go as a soldier, especially learning from more experience soldiers. Or you learn from your own family members, who served especially if they were instructors in the Army too! At the end of the day, different soldiers adapted their webbing to suit themselves, whether you were left or right handed. Or with regard your build and body size, or the role you had in a patrol or unit, or even down to the weapon you were issued too. My partner said there was the official Army webbing kit layout, then there was your own adapted way of setting up your webbing too. Also depending on what type of Officers and Sergeant Majors you had, by the book ones, or more free sports. Or the unit you were in, as units did things there own way too. He says, the Infantrymen compared to Sappers, or compared to Marines. Or compared to Para's, or again compared to Gunners too. He says they all had a habit of doing things their own way, even just wearing berets differently too. It about being proud, of what type of Solider you were, each Regiment believes they are the best! My partner says, but all are second to RA Gunners, that a fact of life, he jokes! As he military family members, have served in the army, navy, Air force, marines, special forces and Reservists too!

[@paddlesat16]

Hi, used the 58 patten webbing as a young infantryman back in the eighties, we never used Skeleton order. The Bex Method is correct, but I think everybody had their own take on how to attach the kidney pouches. At the time you had to carry a specific amount of gear for in field living etc, the poncho roll was for your NBC jkt and trs and boots, and your poncho was rolled up and put over the top of the kidney pouches. Once wet the webbing shrinks and the belt is difficult to do up. It always seemed to rain when in the field. we were also issued 4x bungees which were wrapped around the kidney pouches, poncho roll and poncho to hold it all together and stop rattling.

[@NickfromNLondon]

Agree with you on facing the kidney pouches. We were show a variation in regard to poncho roll by a couple of Green Jackets. We rolled the nbc kit in the poncho roll place it above the kidney pouches and clipped it to where the yoke straps met the belt. Then used our bungee straps to hold the rolled poncho under the kidney pouches. This stopped having the poncho roll swinging about behind your bum. Supported the bottom of the misnamed large pack and the poncho and bungees stiffened the kidney pouches. The side straps of the bum roll could be clipped to the ammo porch bottom corners to pull them to the rear.

[@alexnicole7431]

I was in the artillery 80-96 and wore my kidney pouches as shown in your video would have ditched them for water bottle pouches but had to keep them to carry my 351 radio & battery when on foot.

[@starlightdiscosfalkirk729]

Was shown this method by a Argyle when I was in the cadets He said it was better this way as the other way He lost his pouches while he was in Ireland they fell off but he also rapped tape around the little bits of the end tab and every other loose piece of webbing he also said it stopped it from rattling as sometimes it jingled a little Great channel

[@mikel6517]

We usually wore skeleton order in NI. Even rural everything went in Bergen, ditched if running so we were in light order. Mind you it was over 30 years ago.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Interesting, thanks for the info.

[@mikefaulkner3163]

I used 58 pattern in both the TA in the late 80's and regular units through the 90's, both infantry, I also have family and friends who were both RM and Army, and I never saw them attached this way, only ever in the prescribed method as per the instructions. His method, where it might be more secure leaves a lot off fold overs and kinks in the straps and belt, which would be intolerable on any sort of speed march, and would rip you to shreds on something like P company! - I was always under the belief that the rear pouches were quick release fore a reason so yo could change from fighting order to marching order quickly.

[@norwegianwiking]

If I remember correctly the old, old P company documentary that was filmed during the Falklands at one point shows the guys all covering their backs in sports tape to prevent blisters chafing from the webbing before a particularly long march, so I don't doubt any extra chafing would be appreciated at all.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Thanks for the input Mike, good point on the issues with chafing.

[@alexbonham2361]

As ex soldier and ex army cadet. My dad and uncle both guardsman and showed me how to 58 webbing. It was a mix of second one but not put belt that he showed.

[@gunner678]

Yes, that's how I was taught as far as I remember. The first way I know falls to pieces in the least opportune moments, especially with very worn kit.

[@alexbonham2361]

I wish I kepted the pocho holder for my plc webbing.

[@tommyjm9]

Not used that method, but we used to secure the lower tabs to each other with a split/grenade ring (you had to un-pick the stitching at the ends of the tabs to fit it) and the upper ones went through the loops twice to secure them. For whatever reason there was a trend to keep the pouches really secure and the one shown looks like a version of that.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Thanks for the input on this! Once I have room to leave a set assembled I'll use the method with the ring, cheers!

[@simonh6371]

Warned for orders for destruction of Her Majesty's property! (unpicking stitching)

[@simonsignolet5632]

NOW you tell me! That split ring method is a really good idea, I never thought of that...

[@Albireo8]

Concerning rapid release. I was taught that belt order ie ammo pouches, water bottle, and kidney pouches were essential and you NEVER let any of that go as it had all you essential kit in it: food, water, ammo, hair dryer. Plus respirator in some occasions. The only "rapid release" bit was the large pack which could be undone high on the front of the shoulders and dropped.

[@donxz2555]

Having been instructed to build up and fit my “58” webbing as you described (and go on to instruct new recruits the same) I find the ‘Bex method” both something I have never seen in over 20 years service in the of various branches of the UK military The whole idea when changing from CEMO to CEFO is get rid of surplus kit quickly, hence a ‘quick release’ system. One would not expect to have a system between ‘quick release and have to take off your webbing to alter it ? I have seem more Negligent Discharges than accidental webbing malfunctions ! I am not saying he is wrong, as maybe the original design had other connotations to fitting we do not know about and the trials ‘developed’ the system of fitting as you show. I would say that the loop of material does facilitate quicker operation of and then removal of the pouches and both systems however do seem odd when looking at the make up of the ‘quick release’ material.

[@zen4men]

I was in 1 Wessex TAVR 1977-79 ( the hierarchy were too bureaucratic socialist for me to stay, although I come from a long line of army and naval officers ), and I liked the 58 webbing, in spite of it's faults. ...... I have more modern webbing, but nothing beats the 2 kidney pouches. ...... I often look for MOLLE pouches the same size, but no-one seems to make them. ...... I have a set of 58 kidney pouches in my collection, so maybe I will attach MOLLE straps to them. ...... The poncho roll is useful too.

[@UlsterAndy]

I was only shown your way in 15 year's of service. Never was I shown brix or came across it. 58 was a pain when it was wet

[@mikel6517]

Used 58 pattern in the infantry between 1987 and 1990/91 when the PLCE was issued. Everyone in my battalion and others soldiers i knew from others units used the MOD 1st method. Never had a problem with loose pouches. I seem to remember we might of somehow doubled back the bottom strap back through a metal loop (Not sure, sounds like Neil Hughes description below). I also remember we did not always wear the kidney pouches certain tasks not requiring them so would prefer a quick method of release eg Skelton order. The end of the bottom strap on the 2nd method looks like it come out of the metal loop therefore letting part of the pouch hang. Squaddies did experiment with their webbing hence some of us using extra waterbottle pouches instead of the kidney pouches so they could have used the 2nd method but I never saw it used.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Thanks for the input Mike, building up a picture of different mods etc. from these comments, it's all useful information!

[@mickm234]

Always your way, in addition I always bent the end of the key way push through straps in towards the kidney pouch, and then put tape on the ends to increase the thickness, they never pulled out.

[@thebiggeezer1471]

Only ever did it your way, no idea where Bex got that from. Extra water bottle pouch - not necessarily for a water bottle - and extra bum roll for the basha kit, good to go!

[@chrislye8912]

Bloody ‘58 pattern that brings back memories of packing your life back into wet shrinking webbing! 😂

[@ancientmariner7473]

I wore the 58 pattern. Forget quick release. We (RM) fastened the pouches together with brass nuts and bolts. The whole shebang was one unit and made running speed marching easier.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Interesting, not come across that mod before, thanks for sharing! When I mention quick release I'm not really thinking terms of how the kit was actually used, more the thought process when it was initially designed. It's interesting how often the two do not align. Especially when modifying kit began to become more common.

[@KTM-xz9qj]

Never in all the time of wearing the 58 pattern webbing did I put together or was shown the second method. The first demo was the way I was shown. In several units I served with the kidney pouches had to be carried to sick parade with wash kit etc in. Imagine trying to strip down your kidney pouches down if the second way was used. The two metal loops on the end of the straps we attached the 58 utility straps too to pull in the kit. During basic we attached a green towel fastened with bungy cords over all the crap against your back.

[@willjohnson1273]

I have never seen or used the method employed by the BEX guy. Still have my personal adapted webbing which evolved through various merhods over my 13 years in TA. His method seems to be over complicated. I tended to stitch my pouches together to stop bounce issues. If I get chance will dig out my kidney pouches and photograph how i attached mine which is only slightly adapted from how you depict.

[@chaz8758]

We always fitted them the way you showed, apart from the top quick release - I would turn them around so the folded over part was towards the body and then when pushed though the end would pull against the metal loops to stop them coming out To stop the bottom quick release from coming out we used to just tape over the ends - the same as any other loose ends, fit it to you and tape up. No way would we have used anything like the second way - Sapper served in 6 units with 58 pattern before getting PLCE (which I still used my kidney pouches on).

[@RiflemanMoore]

Thanks for the tip on the upper tab, I've heard that from several others too, going to use that method going forward as it makes a lot of sense.

[@martinryder6910]

6 years and always did it the first method but the 2nd looks better

[@eddiebergin741]

Hi If you are doing the commando endurance course or the bottom field at lympstone this method stopped your gear falling off and being caught up etc so specific to ctcrm.

[@Tconcept]

I'd guess that 58pattern webbing was desigend for different equipment to that which it was used for the 80's/90's, and most of it was pretty old by then (although it was still possible to be issued brand new items of 58 pattern right up until it was withdrawn). Think in my day the "poncho" roll carried NBC suit.

[@dearohdearwhathappenedhere9640]

I've got my own set of 58 pattern webbing and I've just got a quick question: what would actually go inside the kidney pouches? For me, I've got my two mess-tins (ones inside the other) that will, when i get some, hold the rations, a spare change of underwear and socks, my wash kit in the roll and a hexamine stove. Is this accurate or should I remove/add anything? Thanks

[@johnnymoto77]

The only mod I ever saw was putting the poncho roll above the pouches, I left mine underneath so I could get into the pouches easier.It was all a very tight squeeze with the NBC kit we carried.

[@simonsignolet5632]

On 19-Dec-20, there are 154 likes, 1 dislike. So I guess SAS Bex *HAS* watched this video!

[@wi2190]

I used 58 pattern as a cadet and in phase one in the early 90's, I have never seen that alternative method used and it would've been a right pain to use as we constantly swapped between cefo and skeleton order.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Interesting. Thanks for the information!

[@thebelfastvikingmartinbrow3603]

I just used your way . Number two just seems a lot of trouble . but yet again I was just a l/cpl cook. And after basic my gear spent most of the time in the back of the lorry. But I post this on Facebook and ask my brother UDR and my cousin 2 Para Falklands etc and see what they say

[@RiflemanMoore]

Will be interested to know what they say.

[@glosfishgb6267]

we did ours the way bex did was shown at ijlb in 1985 / kidney pounches part of cefo never a need to remove them / when you passed out they tended to get ditched for a ring of water bottle pouches and not used at all by trained soldiers / but whilst training useing as standard was the rule and we did it the way bex showed at infantry junior leaders batt Shornecliff also we had corprals not manuals

[@simonh6371]

Well I served in TA & Regs, wore 3 cap badges and was instructed by DS wearing a lot more cap badges - Staffords, RRW, D&Ds, Hampshires, RPC, Int Corps, DWR, RM (transferee), RGJ, and Royal Signals, and none of them ever taught us this. It was always done as you demonstrated initially Rfn Moore. However many would have only ever worn and been instructed by one cap badge, so probably that is the case with Bexbugoutsurvivor and was the method in his regt/corps.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Possibly so, I just wish that had been the answer when asked. Still haven't received an informative answer, unfortunately.

[@simonh6371]

@@RiflemanMoore I hadn't seen his vid before although I watch some of his other content more from bushcraft / wild camping angle. I looked at that upload just now and bizarrely he has turned comments off (I wanted to ask him) so presumably the comment section must have been heated lol

[@simonsignolet5632]

@Simon H "so probably that is the case with Bexbugoutsurvivor and was the method in his regt/corps." You've obviously not seen his video. He's wearing a "them" T Shirt: kzbin.info/www/bejne/apazeX2Fhcuofrs 'Nough said!

[@davidbrennan660]

The Soldier fix l know still allows or the quick release feature but increased securing of the tabs by trapping them more with the belt and keepers. The new method at least now gives a reason for the flat loops “no one knows the use “of as I was told by my old Cold Warrior Ex Queens Company Mate.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Interesting, will have to try that one, thanks David!

[@neilmaston5116]

Never seen that method of attaching kidney pouches , served 14 years in RM from 1976 to 1990. To be fair we didn't use them very often preferring extra water bottle pouches to hold small items. Also kidney pouches were not user friendly when carrying a Bergen which almost all of us bought ourselves until they issued. During RM training we had to use kidney pouches and wore webbing for all fitness, speed marches, assault and Tarzan course's we used to pull the kidney pouches in tight to our body by using string which went from the metal loops at the front of the webbing under flaps of water bottle and kidney pouches then tied off tight to the other loop at the top of the ammo pouch. This made a huge difference we also attached the poncho roll above the kidney pouches using the loops designed for the entrenching tool and the same loops we tied the string too at the top of the ammo pouches.

[@simonsignolet5632]

I'm researching Berghaus rucksacks and LONG believed RM to have used them during Op Corporate. However, I've not seen ANY pics of any Cyclops Rocs (or Crusaders) used in theatre. All pics seen so far are with the issue Arctic rucksack. Three questions: 1) Weren't Bootnecks paid an allowance for kit of their choice, eg: boots and rucksacks, etc? 2) Were any NYLON Berghaus rucksacks used during Corporate? 3) I've read in MANY places that RM were issued SAS/Para bergens - but I've NEVER seen - or seen pictures of - a Bootneck using one. Were RM issued SAS/Paras? I hope you can clear this up for me.

[@neilmaston5116]

@@simonsignolet5632 No we were never paid extra to buy our own kit, we just did to make living in the field more comfortable and therefore more professional. Its impossible for me to deny no nylon Berghaus bergens were used in Op Corporate, however I don't remember any, most guys had the green heavy canvass ones (Roc ?), the side pouches had to be purchased separately. Nylon is far too shiny for Bootnecks , don't remember anyone having one. Prior to 1982 we were never issued any backpack other than the Cresta Bergan, the Artic H frame began, or a large pack, the best of these was the Cresta, however with that choice you can see why we all bought our own. By SAS/Para bergen I take it you mean the A frame canvas bergen. I do remember seeing the odd one , but never issued in my experience.

[@neilmaston5116]

@@simonsignolet5632 further to your initial message , I only remember Cyclops Rocs (with detachable side pouches)don't think the crusader was available until after 1982 ? I actually still have the berghaus burgen I bought just after getting back from down South, it has permanently attached side pockets and a lot bigger than the Roc, not sure of the model ?

[@jurajobrtac1741]

Please help, i hawe this system but my back pouches doesnt hawe upper rings to attatch, and it always rols over, are mine different or what to doo with them? Thanks for help.

[@muwuny]

You forgot to put the link to the site in the description. Also my dad was in the Army and he complained constantly about P58 pouches detaching by themselves if you ran around too much, so the other method the other guy shows might've been a squaddie-developed improvement to stop that from happening.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Both the site and video are linked in a pinned comment above. Thanks for the info.

[@muwuny]

@@RiflemanMoore I can't see the pinned comment for some reason, my KZbin might be playing up.

[@ZvZd]

@@muwuny Change the comments at the top, Sort by, then change it from Top Comments to Newest First and scroll down and his pinned comment is there. For some reason KZbin isn't showing it normally. Either way here: 1958 Pattern Fitting Instructions - www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1958/fi.html Bex bugoutsurvivor's video - kzbin.info/www/bejne/apazeX2Fhcuofrs

[@pfcparts7728]

Have you ever considered doing a review on the South African Pattern 70 webbing and field pack?

[@RiflemanMoore]

I have but I do not have a set.

[@Tconcept]

Only way is for someone to try both methods and complete a TAB followed by an assault course 😊👍. We were shown to fold the ends over and fit them back into the previous slot. I wonder if they were left just poking through wouldn't they work themselves loose?

[@michaelmulligan0]

We were taught as you did except fold both the top and bottom small belts back on themselves to keep them secure

[@Wildschwein_Jaeger]

The second version makes a big knot after he runs the belt through the loop. A nightmare on the road march that is. The original version seems like there is a risk of releasing the pouches if the pull loop gets caught on something. A longer tail on the upper and inside might help or a way to secure the pull loop. The second method just seems like an improvised method to make up for a percieved deficiency.

[@RiflemanMoore]

A good point I'd not really considered, thanks for that. I've read of several other ways to countering the quick release tabs inadvertently pulling out in the replies to this video.

[@logancote717]

Quick question, I have a set of ammo pouches for the lee enfield from late ww2 but instead of three pouches on each side there are two. Do you have any idea what they were used for or who would of used them?

[@RiflemanMoore]

The cartridge carriers are to carry rifle ammunition in chargers. They were initially intended for troops other than units using the Bren. They were then more widely issued for a time due to shortages in 1940.

[@logancote717]

Rifleman Moore so they were used by riflemen? also I messed up on the date I checked again and they were dated 1952. Good to know

[@Jeffybonbon]

Never seen them attached like that in all my time

[@paulbatterbury704]

the way he attached the bottom of the pouches make sense, otherwise you have redundant loops, the way he attach the top of the pouches, make no sense, there is enough excess on top taps to thread the though both metal eyelets, and then back over the top inner eyelet and in out the outer eyelet to lock it off better, but still allow for quick release in favor of skeleton order, if work from a vehicle, with a GS or Para Bergen. looping the belt though the excess also twist the belt, that will just added to extra discomfort while in use.

[@johnshanahan8477]

Never used 58 pattern. But did you PLCE and we would string a bungee to them to keep it tight to stop it jumping around . Very interesting way do

[@RiflemanMoore]

Ahh yes, seen that. Seen 1958 Pattern pouched slit to take a bungee. PLCE designers took note of this user mod and added sitched loops to the back.

[@chaz8758]

@@RiflemanMoore You could just place the bungy on the outside of the kidney pouches and hold in place with the quick release catches on the lid, that way you could still use the bungy on your basha

[@ZvZd]

Jesus I didn't think Pattern 58 webbing could get any more confusing haha No way that's an official way, just a soldier fix i'm sure, still cool to see

[@RiflemanMoore]

Oh aye, just trying to establish if it is indeed a legitiate soldier fix or a prepper adaption.

[@davewellings6281]

Well they are supposed to be quick detach, so who ever that was got it arse about face. Any one that has used kidney pouches for any duration understands how good they can be in the quick detach department! The best way I found for the kidney pouches was to get the pouches and place them as far away from your rig as humanly possible and install a lot of 58 water bottle pouches instead. btw I never would use a 58 water bottle pouch for water, that was the 44 pattern's job.

[@cuhurun]

I served with the Royal Anglian Rgt during the early 80's and only ever used '58 pat... never, ever saw Bex's method used by anyone back in the days.

[@ww2britishbricks769]

Cool beans

[@RiflemanMoore]

Why thank you.

[@RD-dn7yv]

That method is new to me, it negates the quick release operation. Anyhow, it's all ancient history now - 58 pattern was bloody awful and once wet the added weight was unwelcome.

[@patrickbalfe8340]

I am just wondering how "Quick Release" would work if the equipment got wet?

[@flatmoon6359]

Ten years service Infantry and RSigs ,never seen this method of Bex's.Never come apart,even when switching from CEFO.Then again never used large pack either.Time spent with K.O.S.B. and other units.Try putting it back together in poor light,no chance.

[@neilhughes3529]

The way I was taught when I joined was slightly different from both ways described. Hard to describe, but......Looking at the right kidney pouch as you look at it (actually the left) feed the bottom tab through the first key way ( I think you called it that) right to left as you did. Then get the spare metal loop on the right of the tab (which you have left loose as a quick release “pull tab” I think). Fold it over to the left, and feed the tab back through it before then feeding the tab through the remaining metal loop and key way on the kidney pouch. Carry on with the top tab as you showed. That way the pouches are secured, but still relatively quick to drop. The other point is that if that end was designed to be left loose as you showed , why would they bother putting a metal loop in there and not just leave the webbing to pull for quick release? That metal loop obviously has a design purpose and in your method it is redundant.

[@RiflemanMoore]

I would stress it isn't 'my method' it's the method specified in every published set of 1958 Pattern fitting instructions I've seen to date from it's introduction to the 1990s! The method you've described sounds like an interesting mod though, I'll have to give it a go.

[@daveogle3614]

First chance most got we discarded kidney pouch’s and used water bottle pouch’s

[@TonyBelas]

Hi, I used 58 pattern in the infantry from 73-90 and mainly used the standard method and this was certainly what was taught, but was aware of the bottom loop being used for extra security - especially from people who had been to brecon where bits of equipment falling off would be a big problem. I think it was part of the original design where QD pouches wasn't needed. Let's face it why would you want this feature? Nothing else has it, poncho carrier ammo pouches water bottle - non QD

[@RiflemanMoore]

Thanks for the information Tony! I think the quick release of the rear pouches may originally have stemmed from the ability to drop the 1937 Pattern haversack which they essentially replaced but I'm not sure on that. There are quite a few photos of troops in the '60s out on exercise with the webbing worn without them which might lend some credence to this, I don't know.

[@TonyBelas]

Thanks for the reply. Yes, there was skeleton order (weapon training order where belt, front pouches and yoke were worn), but that and fighting (battle)order were the only two official options. There were no drills or mention of dropping just kidney pouches in any drills. I sort of think some of the second method might been part of the original design but this was not passed to the pamphlet writers on they decided not to adopt it - it’s happened before.

[@66kbm]

OK, a couple of things. Firstly, i am in no way, or any other soldier i served with in 7 years, 84/91, familiar with matey boys method. Far too complicated. Goes against the most basic of Military Acronyms......KISS, Keep It Simmple Stupid. Secondly, i would like to confirm to all that the only part/piece of 58 webbing issued that was new was your Respirator Haversack. All the rest was used, sometimes extremely used by maybe 8 other soldiers over time. Most Soldiers recieved a "decent" set but the 2 worst parts of this kit as used/substantialy used were the belt and kidney pouches. The belt became softened over time, thats ok if you want to wear it around a combat jacket on its own, but with ammo pouches with the weight in them, the pouches tended to fall off the belt, the belt having no rigidity to support the weight of amunition in those pouches. With the kidney pouches it was the top locking tab. Over time as these became worn, they tended to just fall out with rough usage. To counter this, we used to feed the whole tab through the top loop and then pass the end back through the furthermost/outer loop. This could only be done with used/heavily used webbing. New items would not allow either of these occurences to happen.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Thanks for the advice on that method! When I have space to leaves sets assembled I'll use that. I certainly have a worn set of rear pouches whichc should allow it.

[@harry9392]

Never seen Bex's method looks complicated and you don't have the quick release option which cold be needed. ,on my recruits cse we were taught the you assembled it

[@gunner678]

Kidney pouches were always a pain. A better solution was to attach extra water bottle pouches, far better solution for kit carrying in belt order. The second demonstration is the way I was taught.

[@buonafortuna8928]

Wish I'd seen this 39 years (FFS really) ago

[@Grahame59]

The long metal loop at the right of the screen at 3:43 seems over-engineered for a 'pull' to release the straps passing through the keyways. While I don't doubt your official method, the other method does at least utilise this metal loop. Thoughts?

[@RiflemanMoore]

I think the metal loop is just a handle to allow these to be easily removed whilst wearing the set. This does seem to be a feature of the set as designed.

[@ricasteli]

@@RiflemanMoore as a cadet mind we were taught to attach the poncho role hooks to the spare tabs, i'll have a dig round see if i can find it in storage

[@rorybrown9750]

I was in a Guards regiment for Five years in the seventies, never seen it done this way. Far simpler just to wrap a bit of duck tape around the end of the tab to stop it pulling through. Duck tape and rubber bungees seemed to hold everything together back then, mostly due to the crap equipment we were issued with, which i suspect was supplied by whoever gave the lowest quote to the MOD for said crap equipment. Woolen gloves, boots that would soak up water, and no wet proofs what so ever, great!!

[@RiflemanMoore]

Thanks for that Rory, good to hear another take on this. Which Guards regiment were you with?

[@rorybrown9750]

@@RiflemanMoore 1st Battalion Welsh Guards mate. 1975 to 80, support coy . cheers.

[@simonsignolet5632]

I remember when I left service, wondering if I REALLY was issued those woollen gloves I passed over the counter! And the longjohns...

[@grayb3003]

We called it "Arry Black" and it held the whole of the BAOR together everyone used it.😁👍

[@paulmitchell9575]

Nope never seen the method shown and first wore 58 webbing in 1988. To be fair shows some outside the box thinking but I suggest it is far too complicated for the average squadie... I remember it took be a few tries before I got my head around the SA80 sling and compared to this its as simple as a thumb knot. I remember the idea of kidney pouches being quick release being mentioned but in reality at least for me bungees held everything in, reduced things bouncing around and had the advantage of allowing adding the local plant life to aid camming up, saved time sewing on elastic to the pouches to aid camming up and using black nasty to tape the straps up that would then to removed when cleaning or stripping down to "skeleton order" though I know some also did this. Others of course in units that would allow would replace kidney pouches altogether such as with waterbottle pouches.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Thanks for the input Paul! When I've got space I plan on having a set suitably assembled with bungees, tape etc.

[@jonjon9047]

The prepper’s method is bollocks. Additionally, if I’m prepping for the apocalypse the very last webbing I’d use would be ‘58 pattern.

[@mikesmith2771]

Never used it like that I was 1RRW 80 to 90 I used 58 patt than we got issued PLC webbing

[@danwilson1669]

I'm an army vet I was in the mercians regiment and no i never used that method

[@RiflemanMoore]

Thanks for the info!

[@puma1304]

the Bex method seems to me too complicated if little time is available, and for that reason I doubt that this would be the "official" method