Rumination Analysis on Grand Theft Auto IV

[@Infernal460]

The question you ask is Niko evil? I think Niko would say: *"I'm evil when I need to be, and I've had a good education".*

[@haterdesaint]

But what do you think he means when said "the creature that could do this (murder, torture, kidnapping), doesn't have a soul" In the "Niko Bellic trailer"

[@Eightsixseven23224]

@@haterdesaint I think the statement is more depressing when you apply it to more then just Niko. After witnessing all the horrors and sadism within man through The Fall Of Yugoslavia I feel like Niko is somewhat rejecting that there is anyone with a "soul" In his mind there is no innocents left.

[@Eightsixseven23224]

I think Niko is like any human, stuck in deep seeded patterns. Niko's only real coping mechanism towards reality is rage and violence. I'm not saying he isn't capable of change but Niko has never existed in an enviroment that rewards a "normal life" I'm not saying Niko is purely a product of his enviroment but it has nutured him to a point where the bad decisions seem more tangible than a an average exsistence.

[@namelessbaron1289]

And if you want to talk up Roman's exploits more Lore. He created, owned, and expanded his taxi business after setback after setback during the 2008 economic recession! Yeah again if not for his gambling Roman would be great.

[@sarafandumah4572]

Neko struck me as the ideal soldier. He is in essence a tool.

[@jmk3178]

I used to already believe that this was one of my favorite games with the story it tried to tell and you have given me such a new, and invigorated appreciation for it with this Rumination. Thank you.

[@ChocolatierRob]

Joining you on stream or watching them after the fact is a really big time investment so I do love that you now have a rumination on the end that summarises your main thoughts on a game. Even when I drop in to a stream I am unlikely to get a good overall idea of what you are thinking in the short time I am there. That said it’s nearly always fun to be watching whatever you are up to moment to moment.

[@TheIrishSpartacus]

Been binging all your videos lately. Huge fan of your stuff. I literally could listen to you ruminate on the dictionary and find it interesting 😂

[@hazardousmaterial5492]

Experiment keeps being a success, the usual high quality analysis is still there. So keep it up. Regarding the question, i don't think Nico is a bad person. I think he is a good person who was forced into bad situations. And i also think that's why he never "goes big". Because he never wanted to be a criminal

[@deconyus3412]

Answering the question around 11:00 I have plenty of vivid memories of GTA IV vanilla story. While the missions were a bore the dialogue and cutscenes kept me going. I remember the moments where the game suddenly got very realistic and how jarring and cold it felt when you go outside and accidently hit a pedestrian passing a billboard of a lady blowing a bottle of beer. I loved it, but then felt it aged very poorly. Now, I appreciate some of the nuance and juxtaposition feeling they were attempting cause it really works in certain spots. Poor Niko will always be a blacksheep though

[@DiestroCorleone]

Totally agree. The missions might have got boring, but the story kept me wanting to play more and more. I even loved hanging out with Packie, LJ and Roman between missions (and after beating the game) to listen to their conversations. Some cutscenes got real. I felt things that no other GTA made me feel before OR after IV.

[@BrokerCast]

Hey Lore, finally got around to listening to this! I watched the streams a while back, but forgot to watch the rumination I've wanted you to do since forever, haha. There's a few things I want to mention.. So, I never thought about the "stuck in the past angle" and how the three protagonists are all stuck in a way. At least, all three if you consider Tony Prince as the protagonist of Ballad of Gay Tony and I've never thought about it from that perspective and that's a really cool take you have. It's something that not many games do, but it does happen sometimes. One example I'd use is Oblivion, Martin Septim feels like the main character, not the PC. I always thought that was a cool concept and it gives me a new perspective to think about whenever I end up replaying TBOGT. You also made a great point about TBOGT actually being a dark story underneath with levity that feels kind of tacked onto it. I wouldn't be surprised if you're right and they switched up the tone because of the negative to GTA 4's more serious tone reaction at the time. Of course now days people look back more fondly on 4, thankfully, but it was controversial at the time of release and haunted the game for years until GTA 5 became the new popular GTA to hate on... I appreciate what you said about the three characters, Darko, Niko and Bernie, about how they haven't really moved on, even Bernie, and how they're all still clearly dealing with the stress from what happened. Roman wasn't a soldier, but he was still there and was deeply effected by the war and I would put him in that same category too. Roman's optimism is a coping mechanism for what he went through, he's basically burying it with the "positive mental attitude," same with Bernie. Niko on the other hand became a fighter, a survivor. He got very good at killing people and surviving, and so it became his employment. Niko didn't really learn to cope with what happened, instead he just took what happened to him and weaponized it. Darko just gave up altogether and went for the simple fix to cope with what happened. All of these characters are broken and it shows. And speaking of Roman, I appreciated your emotion for Roman on the stream when he lost the wedding ring at the apartment. I've played GTA IV somewhere around 8 times and I've never teared up at that scene before, but when I saw the VOD I teared up too. Specifically the part where Roman said the ring was worthy of her. That line really spoke to how much he loves Mallory and how crushed he was. I like your take about the short term gain long term loss and how it factors into the ending with Deal and Revenge. I'm not sure if it lines up with my personal view of the game and its themes, but I think your take is well thought out and interesting and I'll have to keep it in mind when I do another playthrough. I don't remember exactly, but I think you made a point on the stream about how every time he enters combat he's basically having a PTSD episode and reliving the war? This makes so much sense to me and when you think about things like this, it greatly improves the quality of the game. One of the things I love about the combat dialog is that it makes the game more violent without it actually being more violent, if that makes sense. It's the small details like this that make a big difference. I also think your theory about the diamonds is awesome btw. I'm glad your analysis did justice to the Darko scene. I made a video about GTA 4 on my channel, I wanted to talk about Darko more in the video and I was going to bring up the 500 dollars you mentioned, but I over extended myself. I kind of burned myself out by the end, rushed through the ending, and forgot to mention it. Doing that video put things in perspective for me about how hard it is to do what you do because talking for 2 hours straight was very difficult for me and I haven't actually done it since. In the very few videos I've made since my GTA one, I've had to record in 30 minute segments to take breaks and I end up stitching all of it together in post. The thought of actually lorerunning a game is even more daunting to me. Watching your videos did more than just inspire me to make the video I made, it also inspired me to analyze video games in normal life. Before I discovered your channel, I think I took game stories for granted. I used to just play games once and never play them again. Now I replay games like crazy and look over all of the fine details. I love to take notes and actually study games now and by extension it's inspired me to have a more analytical eye for films, music and other entertainment. So your channel actually had a big impact on my life, especially when I was a teenager. Thank you for the hard work you put into this channel over the years. I understand it's hard, I understand it hurts the throat, but my hope is that you read comments like this and it inspires you to keep going because I know when I get a new comment on my GTA 4 video, especially the sentimental or longer ones, it always makes my day and inspires me. So thanks again, have a good one!

[@Beatnuki]

Frell, you're right. The "Dimitri" scenario IS when anything I recall from playing this all those years ago cuts out. Huh! The new post-stream Rumination beats remain strong thus far - and thank you for them. :D

[@jamesalauri460]

I myself am of the unpopular opinion that a game can never be too long. I love the fact GTA 4 is a good 30+ hours to complete. Even though most of the missions boiled down to go to X kill Y lose the cops repeat. I feel there's a better payoff for the narrative when the story is so long. It forces you to invest in these characters. I understand that it will feel like a drag for most people but I believe these characters deserved the extremely long story being told. And I personally felt GTA 5 was a massive disappointment, not only is it much shorter but it splits you up into 3 different characters. Which on paper looks like a good idea and gameplay wise spiced things up. But I loved how GTA 4 would lock you into this dramatic story in this dark world and it's quite the rollercoaster.

[@alexwilder5561]

Johnny is pretty much Arthur.. And Billy is pretty much Dutch.. I know I didn't wanna hear that either

[@unr8ted77]

GTA4 is not only my favorite GTA game, but my favorite game ever. Of all time. From the second I started playing after that amazing intro cutscene, I was just part of the living world of Liberty City, and Niko is one of the best written and developed characters of any medium. Due to the engaging story, I never once found myself bored and the missions imo only got more fun as the story ramped up. The combat is visceral, the mechanics are responsive (I was on PS3) the sound effects drip atmosphere. The driving was also amazing and required genuine skill. I can pretty much recite the game word for word. I even hung out with all the friends just for those extra layers of character, and the writing is something else. I can put the game on and just cruise through the city and take it in. GTA 4 is a masterpiece in every possible way. So far ahead of its time too. Regarding the two DLC’s, while they’re a fun time of course, they suffer from rushed stories which is strange because you praised their short lengths, but GTA 4 is such an epic crime caper that it needed to be long, and the DLC’s as a result feel rushed in order to line up with Niko’s story (I understand why this is the case, as they are just DLC’s not full games). As a complete package, the main game and the two DLC’s it’s just the kind of care and quality you don’t see nowadays (a problem that went on to plague GTA 5, the worst GTA...)

[@NA-kj9lc]

Gta 4 is also my favorite. Only thing is I couldn't stand the drive mechanics in the beginning.

[@stanmanlyman4550]

just started watching, gotta say this; I enjoyed the driving more than any other GTA. The "weight" of the cars made the driving feel just a bit more "realistic", and I always prefer realism.

[@manlet_king]

Is Niko evil? No, he is a good man ruined by war and circumstance. You can tell that through dialogue with Roman about their time before the war and through Nikos mother (emails). He has been through so much that he is just desensitized to doing bad things. It takes extremes to make him uncomfortable (encounter with Eddie Low for example) and quite some effort to make him act out on his anger, usually he is collected and calm. Honesty and loyalty are two most valuable things to him and all he ever expects and respects is the same in return. Also lets not forget that he came to Liberty City for revenge but at the same time to get away from a life of crime. The only reason he becomes a criminal again is because his hand is forced by Vlad and after that he was practically strong-armed into dirty work for others (Faustin, Dimitri, ULP, Michelle/Karen, Francis, Graveli) or he was broke and on the run giving him little choice in career. While he is a pro at being a hitman and hired gun due to his bloody history it is implied that he does not enjoy it in the slightest. When speaking with Kate he does reveal that he is trying to get out of it all which is why in my opinion revenge ending is the cannon one, tying up loose ends to be free. Also His mask is the ''cold mercenary'', but he does care for the little guy which we can see in his random encounters, Marnie being the best example where Niko just helps her because he feels its the right thing to do by giving her money and helping her leave, expecting nothing in return. I could go on for hours but that is just a testament to how well written he is as a character. Demons run when a good man goes to war.

[@TylerSane5]

You actually mean he "was" a good man! Because we can fix the future! But that don't erase the past..

[@deed7964]

Loved watching the stream. Great rumination Lore!

[@wolfgangfrost8043]

GTA IV is one of my favorite works of fiction! I've done runs of the game where I try to play like I think Niko would actually be as a real person. Only killing the people necessary for storyline purposes or if a Pedestestrian really crosses him in a way that deserves retribution or does something fucked up to an undeserving innocent while you're in free roam mode.

[@pastorofmuppets4552]

Didn’t Johnny work with a politician? Stubbs?

[@cookie1157]

Love watching these to chill out!

[@ghostmanlemagnifique9110]

Could it be that GTA4 was initially supposed to take place in the winter season and that's why it feels like driving on snow?

[@brentc2411]

I like that in GTAV, if you wait a second in your car after getting into it, your character will put on their seat belt, and you won't fly out the windshield on impact. But if you take off right away, you can get thrown through the windshield.

[@DiestroCorleone]

Like the motorcycle helmet in V. That's interesting, never noticed the seatbelt thing.

[@MrSiloterio]

The question of Niko's morality can be further clarified by asking: what kind of evik, objectively or subjectively?

[@Inignot12]

Posting the rumination right after the highlights video was very cash money of you

[@kieranholmes8086]

I don’t think Niko is evil, there’s many examples of Niko being empathetic and kind and actually wanting to be normal

[@damaciogarza2998]

Unexpected.

[@davedave3023]

If you wait before just taking off. Niko puts on his seatbelt

[@djflick8631]

Hey lore have you been playing any older games during the shutdown?? I’m playing thru mass effect again all dlcs were on sale

[@ashleydolin4292]

I still enjoy 4 over 5 more. Well to be fair I enjoy playing the story more in 4 and I enjoy just rampaging more in 5.

[@SnipingMachines]

How long have you been on KZbin for? Keep the content coming btw 👀

[@HybridRaider2]

great work as always lore

[@anarchistjesus7354]

Gta 4s wanted system was an important step, but 6 stars was waaayy to hard to get away from. Gta 5 fixed it by getting rid of the massive search areas. However, that makes it too easy as sometimes, still hard others.

[@sorak185]

Perhaps unusual opinion here... but having played only GTA3 prior to playing 4, I mostly played a GTA game to cause chaos and have fun doing so. Between 4's cops and driving physics, I just didn't enjoy "playing GTA" in GTA4. I also have done literally none of GTA5's single player, but I have well over 700 hours in GTA:Online. I've just... never played GTA for a "story", I've always played it to be a complete societal rebel. And then GTA:Online said "now you can be a societal WARLORD rebel!" It is, in my opinion, the "real" GTA game. 4 just did everything it could to fight me trying to play that way, and that's why I didn't play it for very long. Plus, go to hell Roman, I don't want to play darts!

[@hazardousmaterial5492]

This is part of the reason why San Andreas is still my favorite GTA, because it offers the good quality free roam to anyone who just wants to mess around, but it also has a good story

[@AnaPradosA]

I don't think Dimitri is evil, but that he is in a situation when evil arise normally. But over time I have switch from people is evil mentality to evil is a construct that will arise naturally when the condition are meet for it.

[@jamiepoujade267]

2:25 EY! I love that mechanic. Niko should probably wear a seatbelt more often tho so I can understand why it's irritating for you lol

[@slowerthinker]

If you think that the missions in GTA IV sucked and were a shallow repetitive slog then wait till you get to Red Dead Redemption II ! I stand in awe of Rockstar's ability to create a game with such an awe inspiringly wonderful world environment, and yet somehow make playing the game not in the least bit fun. I certainly agree that the expansions (particularly Gay Tony- I was never too keen on motorbikes) were much more enjoyable than vanilla GTA IV.

[@butterball8359]

He has already done a stream of rdr2

[@N0RulezX]

wait wat, this is a pleasant surprise

[@deslardesslok]

1 YEAR LATE SQUAD WHERE YOU AT?!!?!?!?!?!?!?

[@harrypower98]

FINALLY!!!

[@sonofapirate]

jhonny was just a man who needed to have a more open mind...

[@TylerSane5]

The real ending is the one where Roman lives there a few things that prove this! One being Jimmy from GTA 5 being on Romans Life Invader Page and Niko is wishing him a Happy Birthday this couldn't happen if Roman died since Life Invader wasn't invented till a year after GTA 4s main story plus I doubt Niko would say Happy Birthday on the Internet to his dead cousin Nikos more of the type of dude to actually visits somebody's grave instead! Plus I believe the main reason Packie leaves Liberty City for Los Santos in the first place is the fact almost all his family passed I bet his mom even passed away before he left only leaving the d*ck head cop brother and they don't get along, with Niko and Packie not speaking cause Niko finally put that part of his life in the rear view mirror while he drives cabs for living happy to have normal life even if he isn't super super wealthy but he does have a decent amount of money by the end of GTA 4 I loved the tone of this game too especially cause I play all Rockstar Games like a movie that aims for realism.. if there's one thing this game does get right it's attention to detail I'm still figuring out stuff I never knew like how if you date the Lawyer Chick and dump her for someone else she will occasionally of beat you're car with a bat when you come back from doing an activity or how you can hold Y (on X Box) to turn the car off, but If you press Y you'll leave the car running instead! With the radio on and everything! There's a ton more little details like that to that aren't in GTA 5 sadly! But it could be worse like Cyberjunk $1.99 lol.

[@69dividead69]

No Niko is not evil.

[@DiestroCorleone]

I have to agree that what I loved the most about this game was the story. The missions got repetitive, not too much variety, but the characters, their relationships, and how the story unfolded, is what made GTA IV a great game for me. And right after that I played GTA V, that paled in comparison. Don't get me wrong, it has plenty of stuff to do, a bigger open world, more variety when it comes to secondary missions, but to this day IV is my favorite GTA game.

[@johngun7418]

Lol I literally just finished another playthrough of this game last night.

[@aredub1847]

do gay tony.

[@Starfightingf104]

N