Rumination Analysis on Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan

[@mirzaahmed30]

This guy is amazing....I rarely comment on videos, but I thoroughly enjoy listening to his analysis and thoughts. Good job. I look forward to hearing his comments on Star Trek the motion picture (a.k.a. the best Star Trek film of all time)

[@NYKensington]

I lost track of you a few years back, but then, every now and then, I come upon videos like this, and I'm reminded of how terrific your content is!

[@Supergrunt8]

Funny how this rumination is longer than the actual movie.

[@CaptGage]

I know, right?

[@kazuonamikiri6556]

You know,I thought the same thing. Then I realized I’ve spent over 20 years thinking about this film,so two hours ain’t so bad.

[@dylanlewis5113]

Wrath of Khan is not only my favorite Star Trek movie, but also one of my favorite movies of all time. It's also one of the few movies that make me cry.

[@stukya]

I loved the battle scenes in Wrath, i still get giddy watching it. Also have to mention how beautiful the ship models looked in that movie.

[@toransilverman]

Stu kya Considering the amount of thought put into not only the ship movement themselves, but the crew tension, i think it feels better than the more flashy combat of the TNG era movies.

[@Venti242]

Makes me giddy too.

[@EiduartdasEi]

So, first of all: I love that movie. A lot, actually, probably one of my top three movies of all time. I first watched it when I was 13, four years ago. Now, most people in my age group don't really know Star Trek (or, even worse, think it's only those new movies - kinda makes me want to cry tbh...) and none of my friends ever really understood what fascinates me so much about The Wrath of Khan, or why I can literally quote half of the movie. But listening to your thoughts and seeing how much you love and appreciate this movie has made me so happy! I am so glad that finally I hear someone sharing my complete love for the scene where Kirk explains how he beat the Kobayashi Maru, and how everything just fits perfectly, just... thank you so much. You say exactly what I feel, how you describe the characters perfectly, and how you talk about Spock's death (a scene which, despite knowing what was going to happen because you can't really avoid spoilers in the 21st century, made me cry) and about the love between Spock and Kirk (however one might interpret that). So, uh. Yeah. Thank you. This was a pleasure to watch, I'll now go and absorb everything else you did about Star Trek ;)

[@bananaslug85]

With regards to why Reliant's crew mistook Ceti Alpha 5 for Ceti Alpha 6: When a starship approaches a system, it doesn't start at the sun and work it's way out, it starts at the outer edge of the system and travels in towards the sun. So if the ship's computer tells them that Ceti Alpha system has 9 planets, as they approach they would see the 9th first, then the 8th, then the 7th, and since the original 6th planet is gone, they would think Ceti Alpha 5 is the 6th planet because it is now the fourth one from the outside. Why did no one from Starfleet ever check up on Khan? I remember reading somewhere that Starfleet likely quarantined the planet because Khan and the other genetically modified humans were so violent and dangerous. The last thing anyone would want was for him to take over another starship. Also, with regards to the Genesis device, one thing that you are leaving out is what it means for Khan and his followers. Khan left Earth to find a planet to colonize with his fellow genetically engineered people. At the end of Space Seed when Kirk "maroons" Khan and crew on Ceti Alpha 5, Khan is pleased because he got what he originally wanted: a planet on which to establish his colony. The Genesis device gives this to Khan again; he can now custom-terraform a planet to his liking and colonize this new paradise with his remaining people. This is what Joaquin is trying to tell him during the battle scenes. He has Genesis, they can all have what they have always wanted if he will just stop chasing Kirk. Can you imagine Khan, with his knowledge of Starfleet technical manuals gained in the Space Seed episode, building a civilization of supermen with spaceflight capacity?

[@CRocketSlim]

If I can buy into being able to shave distance off of the Kessel Run by strategically slingshotting around the event horizons of the Maw, I can buy this one too

[@curtinparloe]

Ceti Alpha VI: Thank you for this. It always bothered me that V is still the fifth planet (unless it shifted orbit out beyond VII, which seems crazy), but this is a plausible explanation.

[@tylisirn]

The wrong Ceti Alpha 6 still wouldn't match the cartographic data in their computers. The orbit of the planet would be wrong, the size of the planet would be wrong, the planet would be in the wrong position in its orbit. They should definitely know that something is wrong with this planet. Doubly so since they on a mission to specifically survey the planet!

[@DrewLSsix]

@@tylisirn that and just because you enter a system from the outside doesn't mean you pass each planet in order. You could in fact approach the system from an angle that takes you past all the other planets AND the sun before arriving at the target planet, or you can approach from above or below the ecliptic. Sensors in star fleet also have more than enough range to detect the entire system, and notice both the missing planet and the debris from said planet. Then theres something that the whole franchise has ignored, with FTL you have an effective time machine to actually watch things like this happen. As you approach a planet from light years away the light you are receiving in real time is from the same distance in the past as your distance in lightyears. This means that there should be very little in terms of mystery for many existing episodes. When responding to a distress call a few hours away you will at some point hit the light from the event you are responding to, so you shouldn't be showing up to the debris entirely in the dark. Or at the least you can warp away a few light hours and.... look at what happened!

[@johncervi7100]

I love The work you do for these rumination thanks for the time and effort you put into these. I always try to listen.

[@TheBoundBowman]

Kurogumas thoughts: 1. I prefer your normal background to the green screen. If you want the background, can we at least make you bigger? 2. Nostalgia was best defined by Don Draper - "It's a twinge in your heart far more powerful than memory alone." 3. Fantasy Island. Come on now Arche. De plane! De plane! 4. 49:28 "We're off our first page guys, woo hoo! Actually before we leave the first page..." - Classic Arche

[@spaveevo]

KHHHHHHAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN! Someone had to say it.

[@tjf7101]

I just stumbled upon this channel and wanted to say how much I enjoyed this rumination. I could go on and on, but I'll just suffice it to say that this is my favorite movie, irrespective of genre. I've loved this movie since I first saw it in the theatre at age 11 and I still love it today. I even read the book when I was in the 7th grade and remember the scene where Kahn kills everyone in the lab. I've always been a bit embarrassed at my own fandom of this film, surely I should have something more serious at the top of my list! However, you've done a great job in validating my view of this movie, and I want to say thanks for that!

[@williamebertz8828]

Interesting how Kirk’s arc parallels that of Roddenberry himself, having been “kicked upwards” and out of his metaphorical captain’s chair.

[@kirkhenry3867]

Your thoughts and comments on the movie are really excellent and insightful. I appreciate your making the video....very much enjoyed listening and thinking along....one of my all time favorite movies!

[@fatsqueek2657]

Though I'll admit that I'm significantly younger than you, my dad introduced me to Star Trek when I was about 7 by way of the original series. I watched a fair amount of with him, but I'll never forget the day I first saw Wrath of Kahn.This movie is an absolute masterpiece, and I cry each time I see it. You've certainly done it justice.

[@garrettroesler3207]

Fat Squeek I'm on the same boat the earliest memory was when Spock sacrificed himself

[@andrewthorne3570]

I like to think that Carol Marcus is referenced in the (second) pilot of TOS: "Lt. Mitchell: If I hadn't aimed that little blond technician at you... Capt. Kirk: You what? You... you PLANNED that? Lt. Mitchell: Well, you wanted me to think, didn't you? I outlined her whole campaign for her! Capt. Kirk: I almost MARRIED her!" Why would he almost marry her? Maybe if she was pregnant with his son?

[@lucasvincent2875]

Absolutely!

[@TalsarGeldon]

you did a fantastic job with your analysis of Star Trek. this was great to listen to while I was at work. I'll definitely listen to your other videos.

[@pk2hitman47]

Here's an idea: do loreruns of movies without showing the actual movie, we'd have that open in another window watching it side by side with the youtube video, and you'd tell us when to pause and all that.

[@charleskingsley9685]

That's an awesome idea

[@gingeroverseer9302]

Id definitely be on board with that

[@STSWB5SG1FAN]

@01:41:01 One thing no one seems to recall was that towards the beginning of the first battle with the _Reliant_ McCoy had come to the bridge with Kirk and Spock (you can see him partially in the background standing behind Kirk). At some point McCoy had [transported?] to sickbay but the computer might have still given his location as being on the bridge.

[@christopherjaskowiak9327]

As the Enterprise was reeling from Reliant's phaser blasts, you can see McCoy make his way into the turbolift closest to Spock's station.

[@modernmanno9943]

I too, love that scene in the cave. "I don't like to lose." Chills...such a hero move.

[@michaelfong5424]

Just recently discovered your channel. Great work! Being a massive Star Trek and movie fan I enjoy listening to your insights.

[@MrTrekFanDan]

...I gotta disagree on Khan destroying the Enterprise... I think he would want to personally strangle Kirk, while gloating over the fact he will now be it's Captain and will bring down Starfleet. Superior ambition.

[@dylanlewis5113]

Wrath of Khan is my favorite Trek movie, and might be my favorite movie in general. It's also one of the few movies to make me cry.

[@andrewthorne3570]

In my own headcanon Carol Marcus is mentioned in the second pilot for TOS. About 14:30 into the episode (first sickbay scene) Mitchell to Kirk "If I hadn't aimed that little blonde lab technician at you" Sounds like it could be her

[@williamozier918]

Point of order: Lorerunner says that Spock's death ties into 3 of the 4 themes, age; death, and no win scenario but does not tie into the theme of obssession. I respectfully disgaree. Spock's sacrifice to save the ship is the compare and contrast of the obsession theme. Spock sacrifices himself for something WORTH sacrificing one's life for, whereas obsession, as we see finally and fatally with Khan is someone throwing their life away for no real purpose. That is what makes the obsession so tragic. Khan is in a winning scenario yet still looses and sacrifices his life when it was totally unnecesary, given the preciousness of life this is the true tragedy of the obsession scenario and we get to see that very clearly by comparing the deaths of Spock and Preston to the deaths of Juaquim and Khan.

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

maybe, also maybe, that Spock's obsession (in his own way) is pride, the pride of dying like an officer, the pride in acting logically without heed to his fears, his emotions... he does in for the lives of his ship and crew, but does it in a way that is both very human and very Vulcan... his obsession is acting as himself, in his "superior way" and he dies the way of a superior being, proving he is more than just a member of the crew, a quiet but very much proper & textbook hero. the tragedy, in doing it he fulfills Khan's plan by hurting Kirk in a way only he could, this is also very classical Greek form... the trope of Sacrifice of Patroclus that spiritually kills/destroys both Achilles & Troy.

[@DrewLSsix]

I want an alternate timeling WoK where Khan takes the Reliant and spends some years building a powerbase, learning the ways of the future, then he shows up around the time of ST6 or Generations to wreck Kirk's shit up. Or better yet, they escape the planet... then return the ship to its crew and requests asylum. After all why not? Any political system that might have had a grievance against them is long gone, the attempted hijacking of the Enterprise could be called an act of desperation and Kirk enacted unilateral punishment and arguably violated their human rights by not providing adequate care during their "incarceration " and most of the people judging by their age were either children or were born around the time they were stranded. THEN he begins worming his way into the societal fabric of the Federation and starfleet! Make Kirk watch as he parlays his celebrity wit and charm and begins to rebuild his empire right under his nose.

[@csteinmayer71]

Excellent. Thoughtful. I really enjoyed your rumination on The Wrath of Khan. Though it took me three days to watch.

[@mr51406]

Just rewatched this fantastic movie and your excellent review. Both still as awesome. 🌟 What struck me most of the movie was its relentless energy. It could easily have been 30 minutes longer to flesh out the details and characters, but that would almost have been fan service.

[@MercuryKnight5]

Exactly! Investigating catastrophes and lending a hand to potential survivors is (or should be) Starfleet's bread-and-butter. The minute somebody discovered Ceti Alpha VI was unstable there would've been a science vessel despatched to investigate and record the event, and scan Ceti Alpha V (and VII, if there was one) for life forms that might be affected.

[@christopherjaskowiak9327]

The reason Khan and his people were able to effectively control and operate the Reliant was that they were able to enslave a number of the crew with the Ceti eels. Khan controlled the captain (Terrell) and the first officer (Chekov), and their knowledge of ship functions were no doubt tremendously useful to him. However, the novelization noted that the entire engine room company were given the horrible eel treatment, too, likely with one of Khan's people supervising them.

[@noblevi3623]

A note on the No-Win Scenario test, to quote HK-47, "Cheating seems to be only considered a relevant term when one is caught in the act... otherwise it is viewed as Intelligence, no?."

[@nahleiamartinez7010]

Noble VI Which is why they gave Kirk a commendation for original thinking, then immediately changed the programming of the test to where you couldn't do that again. Starfleet Academy still says he cheated, but they rewarded him for doing so, because it showed intellect. Paradoxical? Yep! Did Kirk changing the conditions of the test teach him anything? Probably not. He still had to take a real life version of the Kobiyashi Maru in his battle with Khan.

[@noblevi3623]

Nahleia Martinez The game of chess revolves around the idea that you win no matter how much you lose in the process of the game. The idea of the test should be, how much are you willing to throw away to win? Not Overwhelming odds that aren't defeatable. And more importantly, are you willing to not live to see your own victory? Edit: To clarify, the test itself is a cheat. Which Kirk mentions in 2009, you can't be scared of a test that isn't going to hurt you. Although in Wrath of Khan it was to get the whole "we're gonna kill Spock" out of the way and done with, only to gut punch you later. But the fact still stands, they call it a test when it should be an experience.

[@nahleiamartinez7010]

Noble VI Thank you! That is exactly what I was thinking while writing, my finger failed to convey it! I remember hearing it said somewhere in-universe that the Kobiyahsi Mary wasn't about a no-win scenario, but that it was also a test of character. That it was meant to show cadets just how they would handle that type of situation. I do believe that Academy cadets should be told that straight out. "It is not about how you handle losing, but hw you handle the situation overall, about learning how you do things, regardless of circumstance."

[@TopGun816]

The ear slug was called a Ceti Eel. In a deleted scene, Saavik was being mentioned as being half Romulan/half Vulcan.

[@TheycallmeMrWonka]

I may have misunderstood what you were saying but with regards to Kahn's necklace thing. I had thought it was the Starfleet insignia from the belt on one of the uniforms.

[@harrypothead42024]

I always felt the Carol Marcus character should have been used more. Great actor, doing some fantastic acting.

[@polygonwrangler]

Late to the game, obviously. TWOK is one of my all-time favorite movies ever. And it is a film I can play in my mind to completion simply by listening to the soundtrack. The soundtrack to this film is absolutely incredible. I truly grieved when James Horner died in a plane crash. It was a terrible loss of a great talent. Anyway, a fantastic soundtrack. If you don't own it, buy it. If I am anticipating a drive in heavy traffic I use a thumb drive with three tracks: Surprise Attack, Kirk's Explosive Reply, and Battle in the Mutara Nebula on loop repeat. When I saw this in the theatre back in 1982 with my dad (yes, I'm old, get off my lawn`) the ending was *completely* devastating. Yes, I'd heard the rumor about Spock's death, but as you said it was deflected in the opening sequence. But I shall never forget as my father and I left the theatre we didn't say a word. We walked to the car. Got in. My dad put the keys in the ignition, stared straight ahead, and said, "I can't believe Mr. Spock is dead." We both started crying.

[@whowantstono8881]

Kirk's disbelief in the "no-win scenario" is really first touched on/hinted at in Operation Annihilate when Kirk tells Spock and McCoy that he refuses to accept either alternative and demands they find the 3rd alternative. We see that belief again in The Corbomite Maneuver "Not chess Mr. Spock. Poker... Do you know the game?" Kirk's belief that there's always a better alternative has always been there.

[@paulscott2037]

In regards to Scotty bringing Preston's body to the bridge, I've always thought of it like this: Scotty is very fond of Preston (in actuality he's his nephew though I don't believe its stated in the theatrical release) so no doubt seeing the young man who he is proud of and even has a strong family connection to getting hurt like this is going to send him into a state of shock, particularly if looking at his wounds Scotty can instantly tell he doesn't have a chance. However Scotty is always about his job. So I can imagine that while in that intense state of shock and carrying Preston's body to sickbay, Scotty gets into the turbolift and ends up asking to go to the bridge, because while his intent is to get Preston to McCoy, there's an automatic part of his brain which is saying "I have to give the Admiral a damage report." Now since the scene always cuts when the turbolift doors open, we don't know what happens immediately after, but I can just imagine that Scotty starts laying out a list of what's wrong with the ship, while Kirk and the other officers are desperately trying to help him and telling him that he needs to get Preston help, possibly to the point where its not until the point when Kirk says it as an order that Scotty snaps out of it and realises his mistake.

[@hughsmith7504]

Another idea is that Scotty was so used to McCoy being on the bridge instead of sickbay, that he went there thinking it was preston's best hope.

[@1701Wren]

I've had a thought while rewatching this. It has been said that Kirk like Pike had 2 five-year-missions but with Kirk being an Admiral he probably had a few troubleshooter missions after ST:TMP before returning to HQ & the Enterprise is retired from active duty (noting what the CinC(?) says in ST3) with Kirk preserving it for Starfleet Academy training cruises.

[@1701Wren]

Also why do they sound the Boson's whistle before opening the airlock & not while it's opening? That has always bugged me

[@krisvires]

This is an old video but: Scotty brings the dead Engineer Preston (who we are told is Scotty's Nephew in a deleted scene) to the Bridge because he knows that's where McCoy is going to be, not in Sickbay. In TOS when was McCoy ever actually in Sickbay, unless he was actively working on someone? He was always hanging out on the Bridge with Kirk and Spock, which is why Scotty brings his nephew there in the hopes that McCoy can do something for him.

[@williamozier918]

35:05. OK, here ya go: The reason the Klingon Neutral Zone is a small bubble has to do with the way navigational displays scale warp drive. Here me out. So at say Warp 7, you're going so fast Klingon is basically a small bubble because each square of the grid represents 1,000 light years (let's just say). When you slowed down to Warp 6 the scale would change and now each grid would be 100 light years, so the bubble would now be an order of magnitude bigger in your display..

[@Dudepatrol47]

I’ve always found the parallel interesting that Khan was stranded on a vibrant planet that was made barren, and is rescued by a device that could make barren planet vibrant

[@garennevar9287]

Starfleet is clearly military - they fight in like every conflict around + Federation have civil structure (president etc) while starfleet is military branch (admirals, inteligence ... ).

[@kardy12]

It doesn’t surprise me Marcus is allowed on the bridge, because Starfleet is not a purely military organisation. It has a military role, a policing role, and a scientific role - research and exploration is a key function of Starfleet, so it would make perfect sense to have scientists on the bridge.

[@padawanmage71]

I could be wrong, but the 'Genesis Effect' sequence was the first true use of CGI in a movie, at the time. I think even predating 'Tron' by a year or two? James Horner did the soundtrack for 'Battle Beyond the Stars' and you can hear some similarities between the two. Another continuity gag...when Khan tells Chekov, 'I never forget a face', there's some irony there since Walter Koenig wasn't even on as the character in 'Space Seed'. You'd mentioned earlier of Loreruns of movies but unable to do so due to copyright issues. What about doing something similar to what RiffTrax does where they record a track for a movie, and the viewer downloads it and watches in time to the movie? I know you mentioned interaction with your audience but it's half a possible solution. It's been a long time since I read the novelization but the scene I remember most is Khan going nuts and killing all the Regula One scientists when they refused to give him the Genesis info, allowing Carol and David to beam down to the planet. Good job and can't wait for ST3. =)

[@Monkismo]

Arch, you probably know this but most people doing riffs/commentaries simply do them as audio tracks that are synced up with the film with audio cues. Obviously this doesn't allow for long pauses to discuss particular scenes or topics, but don't let the copyright concern be a dealbreaker.

[@sjnm4944]

As a kid in the UK my parents used to rent the VHS of Wrath of Khan for me - it was my favourite film of all time then - and that version had all the scenes which had been deleted from the UK theatrical version. Annoyingly now every time Khan is broadcast on TV here it is the cut version, and it's jarring watching this film knowing which parts had been cut out from memory.

[@DJonScott]

Why the eel left Chekov's brain: Lots of organisms put out chemical "danger signals" when killed (bees and wasps, for example, but also ants, I think). So, the smell of the other one dying could've triggered the other one to act in some way. Also telepathy between the eels should be considered as a possibility, since we are dealing with Star Trek.

[@KainiaKaria]

Starfleet by the 2260s and 2270s has become primarily more akin to NASA and secondarily a military because the Federation would want Starfleet to be ambassadors in a sense who when they come across other species and so you would want those aliens species to see what the Federation is about through Starfleet But by the late 2270s all the way through 2290s Starfleet became a little more militaristic than normal because of problems with the Klingons and after the Battle of Narendra III they would become too peaceful but it would be the Battle of Wolf 359 and the threat of the Dominion that would push them to be more militaristic again.

[@UkrainianPaulie]

Exactly....explorers in pajamas. That's why they lost so many ships. Multi-mission cruisers sucked. They didn't learn till after Sisko's "Pimp Hand" kicked Dominion ass.

[@kblargh]

You know, i didn't really know what a midlife crisis was until you spelled it out just now. I, uh... recognized the symptoms. First world problem, to be sure, but it does suck, tremendously. The "he stayed at his post" thing always stuck with me. There's this thing that comes with death, or the idea thereof, anyway, that sort of boils down to "if i die now, what did it all mean?". In movies, the people that die early are the cannon fodder, the nobodies. You think about them for half a second and after that they're out of your mind forever, irrespective of the fact that, in-world, they're people just like the main character, with lives with as much weight as his, just as worthy of existing and probably just as interesting as people, yet they're discarded like trash. If i die, suddenly my life will have been a joke. A footnote. No one will have cared, no one will have known, no one will have gotten the point, if there ever was one. And worse than acknowledgement from other people or lack thereof, there's the nagging felling of it actually being true - that in the end, this or that life WAS a joke. And then here's Scotty, holding and mourning this nobody cannon fodder guy who only died to show the situation is serious, and almost in tears says how he was the better one. This was the guy that was worth keeping. The one you could count on. The one we lost, exactly because he was brave and reliable, and wouldn't abandon his post no matter how dire the situation. And now we lost him, and will never know how far he could have gone if this one thing hadn't happened that took him from us. I just thought it was very poignant. And alludes, in a series that throws away redshirts' lives as if they're nothing, that yes, their lives are indeed precious. About the Kobiashi Maru thing, am i the only one who thought right from the get-go that testing someone's character in a certain death situation, by running a simulation thereof (that the test subject is aware of, no less), is a failed, self-defeating premise by itself? About the Mutara collision, i get the circumstances and the consequences, but are we forgetting that in a space battle with energy weapons, in that space, the relative distance would be astronomical? It'd be more of a problem for the two ships to ever find each other's general vicinity, i think. I'm guessing that in reality, they'd probably just look for each other to exhaustion, until they were forced to retreat by their supplies running out or something. Just my thought on it. So, how to tie it up... you know, i think that even if Star Trek III had failed to bring back Spock, it would still be a worthy title to dedicate an entire movie to dealing with the loss of such a monumental character. Because really, the loss of Spock isn't something you properly deal with in a coda. That leaves a mark, and you have to work through it, no matter how pretty the ending monologue might be. But more on that later.

[@RA-VEN8]

J.H. composed Battle Beyond The Stars. (1980)

[@MercuryKnight5]

Agreed. 'Roddenberry's Vision' notwithstanding, Starfleet is the Federation's navy. Given the resources obviously expended on it, and the nature of some of the missions assigned, it wouldn't make sense for Starfleet NOT to be a branch of the military.

[@thirdway29]

Love this film.I find the dropped thread idea fascinating and find it a really unique and interest way to preserve continuity. DS9 did it but may favorite example is JMS and the way he handled it for Babylon 5. I am thinking here about Talia Winters and the sleeper personality and the emotions they saved of her. After she leaves Mr. Garibaldi has a flash to that scene and it is implied he can use that to bring her back. The actress left and so they dropped it but I always liked the entry and exit points JMS left for every character.

[@cityman2312]

I liked the way Khan was introduced in the original series with their alternate history and Kirk and the rest being open minded about him. When compared to certain other twentieth century dictators, he was a real sweetie - from what we know about Khan in the episode, he was an angel when compared to Hitler or Stalin.

[@ameier5570]

For me the death of Spok says a bit more than "There is no no-win-scenario", it says for me "Yes there are always possibilities, but somtimes there is a price to pay for the solution." And i personaly loved the little line "What do you think of my solution for the Kobajaschi Maroo?" It is so very spok that his solution is to sacrefice him selfe, somthing only a few people would even think of let alone do. Great Rumination, thanks

[@Spartanj42]

I totally get why Roddenberry insisted on the sign being cut, that's just wrong.

[@Raxaimus]

"Picking Spock as the character to die was the logical choice." Pun intended? In all seriousness, though, I'm actually glad that Nimoy of all people held such antagonism toward the series. In hindsight, that death and the events that followed made the trilogy of II, III, and IV one of the best things in Star Trek, in my opinion. And this was due, in no small part, to the emotional attachment we as fans have always held for that crew, and for Spock in particular.

[@ShadowLink108]

RIKU-ANSEM! >(

[@ShadowLink108]

Still will never unsee your pic the same way. On topic, I not sure how I feel. I don't like it when people hold bitter resentment, silent or spoken, for years, mostly because I dread running into the same fate. Growing to resent something I used to love that I spend years/most of my career doing. Makes me feel nihilist, like those years might have been wasted in the end. But I more happy he was won over, intentionally or some soul-searching on Nimoy's part. I just glad he return to Star Trek (though he didn't quit leave par say), because the character and fable of Spock, what he was, what he stood for, and what his struggle and balance meant more than words I can't describe. He was among the first to show me, "logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end." God knows I could easily have become one of those types of people with my intelligence and vast mental skills. Characters like Spock are so rare to find that apply to "smart" or thinking people. Lessons and idols to look up to.

[@craigp4853]

Another fantastic rumination. Great job.

[@Kuramajp]

Janeway's nemesis was the space time continuum.

[@themindseyecmh]

I always thought her nemesis was an empty coffee pot lol

[@ifandbut]

The biggest thing that struck me, was how similar the warp core is to Voyager's warp core. I just rewatched it and had a double take and shouted "Is that Voyager's warp core!".

[@RA-VEN8]

I think they used the same lighting techniques.

[@georgeauldiii3886]

It WAS a redress of tmp engine room, voyage even had the railings etc, just new paint. Happens all the time

[@kiltedjohn1000]

im 23 mins in and its still very interesting...now 1hr 18mins...ended,,brilliant

[@ZGMFX28ANuLiberty]

Well, in regards to your points regarding Ceti Alpha VI, one interpretation of why the Reliant wasn't aware of the planet's destruction and assumed Ceti Alpha V was its sister planet can be found in the Vanguard novel series (I'd highly recommend it myself): Ceti Alpha VI exploded due to Starfleet meddling with artifacts connected to a long dormant and highly malevolent species sourced in a region of space known as the Taurus Reach. The charts of that sector were then forged to cover up said meddling, pretending that Ceti Alpha V was Ceti Alpha VI. Thought that might prove interesting food for thought.

[@christopherjaskowiak9327]

Which book was that?

[@ZGMFX28ANuLiberty]

@@christopherjaskowiak9327 That would be the final book of the series, Storming Heaven.

[@towermoss]

In the TOS episode "Space Seeds", Kirk promised Khan that his people would be left alone. The Federation has stayed away from the Ceti Alpha system, as they have with other systems (like the Talos system from "The Cage"). Kirk, and Starfleet, would have no reason to visit Khan's planet. And Khan would probably kill him if he did anyway.

[@UkrainianPaulie]

Laugh at the 20th century exit signs hanging from the ceilings.

[@FreihEitner]

I only recently came across your channel (specifically the Trek ruminations). While I really enjoy Star Trek, I've never spent much time researching it. I had no idea that Spock was (probably) originally going to die in Khan's first attack. That would have seriously been a punch in the gut for Kirk and would have massively changed the latter part of the film. I like speculating about what that would have looked like. Wow.

[@ToxicCrayon]

As scripted, the eel exited because Bones hits Chekov with a hypo and "sours the milk" and the eel thus flees. They cut that bit out, unfortunately.

[@ledarbyromeo9667]

I know I'm 4 years late but I wanted to comment on why the Genesis device was not tested on Regula. Simple: cross contamination. Carol said phase one was tested in a lab that phase two was tested underground in that phase three would be tested on a planetary scale. now Carol did not say that those were conducted in the same environment as previously used.

[@AdamCollings]

Your point about the Starfleet symbol necklace having belonged to MacGyvers is REALLY interesting. I've always assumed that Khan took the Starfleet symbol from one of the Reliant crew members.Why? Maybe because it was a symbol of his dominance, taking control as the new captain of the Starfleet ship. It never occurred to me that it had belonged to his wife. In my defence, it's the movie-era Starfleet symbol with the circle around it. If they'd made the symbol look more TOS I might have understood. Assuming of course, that your theory is correct (but I'm gonna guess that you're right). Either way, that's my new headcanon.

[@scottstallings5029]

Wow! You got a great 👍 channel. Keep up the great work!!

[@thurin84]

very nice. i was dubious of watching such a long critique but its been most enjoyable. i too always found the ceti alpha V-VI discrepancy troubling. as far as why ceta alpha VI exploded ive always attributed it to being hit by a planet killing comet or asteroid. the part i had the most trouble with is its effect on ceti alpha V. as you said earlier space is big, really big even on a stellar level. the chances of both planets being near enough along their orbital path to have significant effect on one another seems to me, well, astronomical. i agree with you up to a point that starfleet is quasi military/police force in organization but thats clearly not its main function but due to the inherent danger of its primary goal of exploration. as far as the brain worm bailing on chekov this has always been my take. hes a starfleet trained officer. hes met certain standards physically and mentally and been indoctrinated into a starfleet mindset. the thought of being ordered to harm his mentor and friend captain kirk creates such resistance in his mind causing a brain chemistry environment so inimical to the brain worn that it has no choice but to flee. that this is implied to be unknown to kahn and his people is because of their increased arrogance so it has never occurred with them nor marla mcgyvers because she was obviously subtly flawed as evidenced by her poor choices that led to her banishment. a couple of things that always bothered me about kahn, his people and his abode. kahns necklace medallion thats clearly a star trek movie uniform belt buckle post dating his marooning. most of kahns disciples are too young to have been there for 15 years and too old to be offspring born there. the ss botany bay seatbelt and artifacts that chekov recognizes. when kahn took over the enterprise he in kirks words "cast of their useless ship" it seems unlikely that they kept such souvenirs before casting it off or that kirk went back to get it when he marooned them. i think ricardos performance was spot on portraying kahns obsession and mental unbalance. i dont see how anyone could find it over the top. "he tasks me, he tasks me" the mutara nebula battle was directly lifted from the tos episode "balance of terror" which was directly lifted from the sub movie "enemy below" about spocks death. ive always found it gimmick, shlocky , and unnecessary to the story. i consider it a plot gimmick and egostroke to placate an important actor. granted it made the movie and human story more poignant but it couldve been any important npc who died to accomplish the same thing (or nearly so) and it really wasnt necessary to the story at all. heres why i find it shlocky and contrived. 1st from my understanding the reactors were primarily for backup and couldnt produce enough output for the ships vital functions. 2nd the whole set up of spocks death room was frankly silly in light of 22nd century technology. it woudve been inaccessibly to humanoids and serviced by rovs with many layers of backup systems. 3rd the radiation spewing spock killing phallus is ridicules in design for a functional piece of equipment. it wouldve been more remote, heavily shielded and had built remotely operated actuators to do whatever it is spock was doing when it spooged its radioactive death all over him. lastly boy it sure was convenient that the room was constructed with glass see through walls instead of say like your average nuclear pile. just sayin. the whole death thing felt overly contrived and if it hadnt happened the story wouldve been not much effected and we wouldnt have needed stIII to get spock back. dont get me wrong its still my favorite st movie but i feel it wouldve been better without spocks death.

[@TopGun816]

Judson Scott was the name of the actor who played Joachim.

[@toransilverman]

In regards to why they didn't use the moon as a test bed, I would think they would rule it out because the previous testing might contaminate the results. Doing it on a planet or moon that wasn't touched by the device would remove any possibility that the previous test helped the result. That or Regula 1 is not in the habitable zone of the solar system.

[@Sabaition]

You should do a Lorerunner movie analysis the way Oliver Harper does movie commentary on KZbin. Works fantastic. He runs a timer on the screen so you know where he's at in the movie as he talks. Absolutely no copyright infringement issues because you're showing neither video or sound outside of yourself talking.

[@Eval999]

I'm surprised you like Moby Dick Arche. I'm glad, though. The way those last few chapters play out after the build up is BEAUTIFUL.

[@johannpopper1493]

I'm officially establishing "miranded" as the new term for being marooned in Star Trek.

[@GeppettoProductions]

Marooned by a Miranda-class ship.

[@scottstallings5029]

I have a good question. Why didn't Spock just put on a space suit to protect him from the radiation? Just like Chekov was wearing when he met Kahn & friends on the planet with the delicious brain bugs. 🧠

[@MrTrekFanDan]

Scotty calls Kirk "Jim" in "Mirror, Mirror".......Also, I think the exploding planet term was only phrased from a stranded observers point of view.... I can only surmise it may have been a collision with a passing planetoid sized object....my question on this topic has always been , how did the Reliant sensors not know the positions/orbits of the planets were shifted ?...and one was missing. ;-)

[@richardvernon317]

Easy, planet 5 is where 6 should be due to orbit change and where 5 should be is the other side of the system's star and out of view of the ship's sensors. Assuming that the Reliant approaches the system from that direction. Is Reliant doing a full survey of the system? No, as its already been done at least once before Enterprise dropped Kahn off there. Ceti Alpha 6 is what Reliant was interested in and nothing else.

[@quicksilvertongue3248]

Imagine how much better Into Darkness would have been if Quinto Spock hadn't yelled KHAAAN!, But instead had just bowed his head for a second, then looked up, with steel and murder in his gaze, and quietly said "Khan.". That would be how you reference the old scene instead of awkwardly parroting it.

[@amaris27]

I always wondered if the reason they wanted a planet to test the Genesis device on was to test it's scalability. They had already generated the Gen. effect inside that planetoid, but its not a full sized planet. Ive always felt that was the main reason for them wanting a larger test target basically. Also, something interesting to think about is why didnt the interior fail like ST3's Genesis planet did? Could it be that the Genesis effect when scaled up to full planet sized was unstable? I know the real reason is cause the writers didnt put that much thought into it but still, I like to think that maybe the genesis effect would work on small scales.

[@matthatter56]

Hey Arch do you know any good Star Trek books staring the Romulans? The Romulans have been my favorite since I was kid even before I really watched the shows. Specifically books from the TNG era or TOS. TNG is preferred.

[@MercuryKnight5]

Heh, I came to Star Trek through the Star Fleet Battles boardgame, though I did watch TAS when I was eight. In SFB terms the Reliant got an Alpha Strike on the Enterprise at knife-fighting range. If not for the natural ECM provided by the nebula, the damage would've been even worse. I never even got to see TOS until I was an adult, and watched that and TNG pretty much simultaneously. I guess becoming a Trek fan through TAS via SFB gives me a..unique perspective on the franchise.

[@lucasvincent2875]

Genesis phase 2 would require a full size planet for the gravitational pull needed for comfortable human life. I think. Kahns necklace was the first flaw i noticed in this film. It's a movie era buckle, blackened and broken.

[@gordondavis6168]

I like this Christmas Special: The Wreath of Khan.

[@TheSyledir]

I agree with the opinion that Kirk or someone of the Federation should have checked in on them every once in a while. It just sense to keep an eye on genetically enhanced super soldiers. And maybe poor Marla McGivers' family wants to know if she is well. Fact is, Kirk didn't. No one did. And now it is his mess to clean up. I have to admit, I sympathized with Khan in this movie. I wanted him to succeed. So much that I almost forgot what kind of a person he was, what his goals were. Even if his hunger for revenge was justified, Khan had to be stopped. In regards of age: I don't think it matters. Khan was over 200 years old and he still lost. Kirk on the other hand was younger but a seasoned Captain of a starship. With experience comes age but with age does not experience, at least not necessarily. I have to say I did not enjoy the final battle. It did not feel like one adversary had to outsmart the other. It rather felt like they were playing bingo, patiently waiting for luck to strike. I don't know which would have been better, Spock dying in the middle of the film or at the end and it doesn't really matter in my opinion. Bringing dead characters to life has been done to death in the last decades. So much that I don't believe it anymore, when someone dies on the screen. Death has regularly become a gimmick. It cheapens the gravitas of any death scene and I am sad to say Star Trek II is no exception. Having said that, I still enjoyed watching this movie and would recommend that everyone should watch it at least once. Kudos to Archengeia for another great rumination.

[@Greaseball01]

The Kai Leng field is clearly what is always responsible for Enterprise being the only ship in the quadrant, it makes perfect sense in that it doesn't.

[@PhialSubstance]

I never found a problem with the planet exploding, I mean from Khan's perspective he wouldn't know why, probably a comet or something. The federation wouldn't be surprised at the new system structure because things change all the time in space, although to be fair they should have paid more attention to the last group of genetic super-humans lol I feel like they would have sent ships to check. But assuming they didn't or couldn't, the planet stuff never bothered me. Space is big and confusing and in a constant state of change that they can't be aware of all of it.

[@DrewLSsix]

I star trek things like that seem to happen a lot, in the real universe not so much.

[@mb2000]

“Why is the Neutral Zone a bubble?” This, this is why you get my subscribe and I’ll be watching your whole back catalog (in video and podcast form) from now on! The Neutral Zone thing always confuses me too. Even in TOS, the Neutral Zone was show as a line, a border between the Romulans and UFP. The Klingon one must be very difficult to fly/trade or do anything through if it completely surrounds them as it’s shown! To say this movie had excellent visual storytelling, they dropped the ball on that bit. The Ceti Alpha VI exploding thing. Again I agree with you it was a big headscratcher. Especially when, if planets are numbered out from their sun, then Khan’s Ceti Alpha V would have been closer to the sun that Ceti Alpha VI. So... why did the explosion of CA-VI push CA-V into an orbit that apparently made it look like it was CA-VI (in other words, CA-V was pushed towards the explosion of CA-VI and further out the system, not away, which would presumably have sent it closer to its sun)? Despite this, CA-V went from Earth-like to a desert, as though it did get closer to its sun, but was still in a position to be mistaken for the further out CA-VI. But yet, Starfleet should be able to do more than count planets, like check databanks for any people that might have colonised these planets...

[@cheddar2648]

I listened for 15 minutes. Now I qualify for MENSA.

[@CRocketSlim]

Lorerunner's videos are like a geek info dump directly into one's brain, I love his stuff (been meaning to watch more of the let's plays)

[@simicmagic4806]

One thing that bothered me regarding the whole eel thing. The creature renders it's victims highly suggestible... Is there a reason they would be suggestible by Khan and not everyone else? I imagine a situation in which conflicting "suggestions" (Khan, "Shoot Kirk"/ Kirk, "Drop the phaser") taking place here.

[@ibnbattuta1304]

spock dying in the middle wouldn't work. he was the only who could save the ship at the end. spock was the solution to the no win scenario. or kirk had to lose spock in order to survive.

[@Thelizardviking]

I always assumed that the Genesis project was tested in the cave was due to better hide it. Just a theory.

[@amaris27]

I also think that a earlier Spock death would have ruined the movie entirely. By having him die from a sneak attack instead of a self sacrifice action, it would have really cheapened his death and in my opinion changed Kirk's entire motivation in this movie and basically turned him into Khan. There would be no self sacrifice at the end. I imagine the movie would have ended with the reliant just being blown up completely instead of a tense time limit escape. Spock facing his own Kobyashi Maru is also a big part of his growth in the movie.

[@reyperry2605]

There's almost a decade between TMP and this. Kirk may have held onto the Enterprise for a few years before finally trying to move on.

[@christopherjaskowiak9327]

Speaking of small details... I wonder why, after hijacking the Reliant and possessing the ship for about three days, Khan and his followers did not take advantage of the amenities on that vessel. You'd think one of the first things they would do, after marooning the Reliant crew and warping away from the Ceti Alpha system, would be to ditch their filthy, hodgepodge clothing, take luxuriously long showers, and cut their hair. But no, the whole time they have Reliant, Khan and his people still keep on looking like Hell's Angels.

[@47imagine]

Fantastic analysis. Well done.

[@CrazyChemistPL]

The first time I saw Wrath of Khan I was probably about the same age you were when you saw it Archengeia (of course I saw the film on TV years after you did in the theatre) and I must say what most stick to my mind and memory was abject terror caused by the ceti eels scenes. I just wanted to watch epic Star Trek adventure and I got really horrifying torture scenes... But when I saw it as a "mature" person, I saw the greatness in it.

[@rahulshah1408]

Thought experiment: What if bones dies instead of Scotty’s son? Also, I think 2 lines had to be said by a Vulcan. The comment about experience vs intelligence on the nebula hunt and the coded message.

[@richardvernon317]

Enterprise is not the Federation Flagship!!! It's the Academy Training Ship. All Navy's have a large oldish ship which allows new person to be trained to an operational level before they are posted to an operational vessel That is Enterprise's role in this film.

[@stvbrsn]

The director's name is Meyer. No s.

[@jdlyonsky]

Props. This was brilliant.

[@Threesixtyci]

Could probably do a lore run... but where the audence uses their own source for the movie... while you display and pause a film timer.

[@christopherjaskowiak9327]

For some of the minor plot holes in the details, read the magnificent novelization of the movie by the late, great Vonda McIntyre. I love her book as much as I adore this movie.

[@johannpopper1493]

Another excellent rumination. Thank you.