Rumination Analysis on The Last Of Us

[@shadow4798]

"I didn't like this game" 39 minutes of praise and thoughtful commentary about the game. :D

[@THEWall69OFFICIAL]

to be fair i didnt like the game. i loved it because its dark an well written. still havent replayed it tho, once was enough x].

[@Esakosarara]

You don't really need to like something to acknowledge it's good. I have a friend that hates "Breaking Bad" and in fact haven't finished watching it, but he still mantains it's an amazingly well done show, just like I don't like "the wire" but i think it may be the best cop show there ever was.

[@SairekCeareste]

Joel's decision aside, I never really trusted the Firefly's. Ellie was a rare case of MAYBE finding a cure for humanity and rather than doing tests on her first, the first thing they wanted to do was kill her to extract her brain. Like... why? That's not professional at all. It makes no sense. Maybe you could do tests without having to kill her first? If you kill for her brain, but it's not the solution, they effectively would have doomed the only hope humanity had for literally no reason.

[@shomeghuy7226]

Exactly. That's not professional, that's not medicine, that's not science, that's not ethical. That's a villain trying to justify his/her actions. Doctors don't go experimenting and murdering people for "research." The only ones who did were called nazis. So many people automatically fall for "the cure" excuse, it's unbelievable. What happened to using your brain? There can be no cure. Maybe there's a "cure" for the infection, but that doesn't magically destroy all the infected, and it doesn't magically restore civilization. It doesn't magically make the military, the hunters or the fireflies disappear or reintegrate them into a civilized society. A vaccine can't change what those people had done and what they had become. Not to mention, how the hell do you mass produce and mass distribute a vaccine in this world? Hello? But this is supposed to justify experimenting on and murdering a child? And stopping that murder is "selfish"? HUH? Only if you are as psychopathic as Marlene.

[@CasualShinji]

The Fireflies are pretty desperate at that point. The game starts with us seeing how they're getting kicked out of Boston, and then later we see how a rebelion they started in Pittsburgh turned against them and they got booted there, too. Their resources are dwindling, and when you meet up with Marlene at the end she even says how she lost pretty much eveything trying to get back to HQ. They obviously did tests on Ellie since they figured out how her immunity works, but the net is closing in around them and they have little time to really act professionally. The fact that they're taking advantage of Ellie being unconcious after almost drowning says as much.

[@vladi1Z]

Absolutely not. You just sound like people trying to desperately justify Joel's emotional reaction. Ellie was special, the chance of having a cure from her was very high, we hear that in the recordings. This moment/choice was MEANT to be questionable. The entire plot leads to Joel being so connected to her that he would doom the world for her. If the Fireflies were some baddies trying to kill Ellie with near zero chances for a cure then the ending would be empty and anti-climactic. Don't rob the ending of its meaning, it was obvious what it was written for.

[@Sjono]

I really doubt Joel saw Ellie as purely an object by the end of the game

[@sandrobsnake]

Especially if you are "roleplaying" and you have kids...

[@shomeghuy7226]

Not even by the middle of the game. Probably only at the beginning. Even before they get to the Capitol, she's already reminding him of Sarah, and Tess has to snap him out of it.

[@frenchynoob]

I dont think that was his point...

[@TheOneOrMore]

I feel that your assessment of Joel being selfish is correct, but not in the sense of Ellie being a possession. I felt it was more along the lines of "The world took my daughter from me once, I will not allow that again. Even if I have to kill the world and everyone in it." And if the cure would have worked, he did just kill humanity. It's selfish to the extreme. He takes Ellie's choice away from her. But it's human. I noticed you didn't mention Henry and Sam, which is a shame because I thought that Henry was kind of what Joel could have been. Causing the death of the person most important to him, justified or not, and being unable to go on. If Joel had let the Fireflies go through with it, that could have happened. Really enjoying these ruminations.

[@Flaris]

Yeah, I thought Joel's actions made sense and were very human. It is totally selfish, but humans are selfish. He lost his daughter and we can see where Joel ended up over the years. Through this journey he found another daughter and he wasn't about to let her be killed. She didn't let him die either and put herself through incredible danger. If given a choice would he have told her to risk herself to find medicine for him? I doubt it. They both made selfish decisions through that journey because the other became someone they didn't want to lose. And I'm with Joel emotionally and as objectively as I can be. Trying to pass along any cure in that world is insane, everything has gone into total chaos. Manufacturing and distribution seems pretty hopeless. But also looking at their previous records...I really doubt they would have been able to do anything more than turn Ellie into a corpse. They weren't going to make any major breakthroughs. Just killing off someone who can actually survive in the current world. Potentially killing off the future. In the end Joel treated Ellie as family that he wanted to protect. Marlene, someone who should have treated this girl as family just used her as a tool.

[@artmanxp]

if what they were doing work, to begin with. by the end I had ZERO faith in the fireflies founding a cure if not surviving at all as every turn they were dead or not dying when you made it to any of there strongholds. hell, they don't even basic test or let Elle choose. just go into the brain cutting. from the start, I got the feeling that fireflies were a dying political movement by people who didn't fully understand what the infection was and at this point, fighting is old hat. they never really want the cure for humanity, just power over what's left of humanity at most and a ragtag team of dumb asses trying to justify to themselves that all the disruption to the remains of humanity was for "the right thing"

[@miller-joel]

Flare, I would agree, except for your definition of "selfish."

[@780d4]

I don't think he saw her as a possession, i do think he cared for her. He tried to get rid of her 2 times with Tess and by dropping her off at Tommys. I think Ellie is joels "finding something to fight for". I agree that Sarah represents humanity, so does Ellie. This is why Joel doesn't want her with a gun and why he overreacted when she shot that guy drowning him. Ellie represents humanity, hope. But she is HIS hope. HIS reassurance. HIS reason to fight. And as i write this i have just realized you are right.. holy shit he did have a sort of possession over her.. but i do think it was love. I think he loved her and possessed her, both can exist It's flawed but possible. I loved the game

[@jacobgill8912]

but what I want to know is Stephen .A. is can lavar Ball beat the goat MJ

[@rohgenextfan]

Joel shot Marlene because he sees Ellie as his daughter, he's holding her the same way he held Sarah, and he wasn't going to let another daughter die.

[@rohgenextfan]

Marlene didn't ask, Joel didn't have a chance to ask - he made a snap judgment. "You're going to kill my daughter? You're dead."

[@whodareswins999]

You made some interesting points with regards to Joel's motivations that I find myself agreeing with. I personally believe that his selfishness was motivated by a fundamental need to recapture his humanity, as personified by Ellie. No human being can maintain the persona of the survivor indefinitely without some form of psychological touchstone to remind them that they are, or were at one point, more than the animal that the situation has compelled them to be. In the early game, Joel's touchstone was Tess. They didn't particularly like each other but they were a source of stability that otherwise didn't exist, and so they trusted and tolerated each other because they were reminders that each was more than a monster in a world full of monsters. He could bear the loss of her because by the time her luck ran out, Ellie was in the process of becoming a more powerful psychological anchor than Tess. Henry is another example of what happens when you lose the focus of your existence in that kind of situation. By the late game, Ellie had become a reminder of the man and the father that Joel used to be before the world went to hell, and he couldn't bear to lose that. It doesn't help that he'd been essentially at war for twenty years. That level of exposure and psychological detachment and hardening plays hell with any kind of value system beyond absolute survival, and it's only going to get worse as the conflict between the military and the Fireflies becomes more heated. I find the dynamic between the two organisations interesting because they're more similar than either would care to admit. They are both trying to restore some semblance of the world that was and using extreme methods to do so. Moreover, both sides have such a narrow focus on what's necessary to bring about their agendas that neither have really noticed or care to notice that what's left of humanity has in large part left them behind. It's one of the justifications I use for not hating Joel for the monstrous and selfish things he does. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Part of the reason I love watching your ruminations is because I find them thought-provoking, and I really enjoyed the opportunity to share my thoughts on the subject. You're doing amazing work, thank you.

[@doomrider56]

Love your content. Found you 3-4 days ago and have watched 20+ of your ruminations already. Keep up the good work. Also you mentioned my reasoning as to why Joel saved Ellie, he loved her. He found in her what he had lost from Sarah's death and he couldn't handle the thought of losing another daughter.

[@Mrcrazy80]

My take: Joel's reason for killing Marlene is exactly what he states - they'd "just come after her". Joel lost the one thing he truly cared about on the eve of the breakout and has spent 20 years on survival auto-pilot. I think it's implied that he and Tess had a 'thing' once, but he's at a point where he (at least subconsciously) is desparate to find something to care about again. At the end of the game Joel has realised, not that he necessarily despises humanity, but that saving humanity wouldn't be worth sacrificing his surrogate daughter. It's VERY clear from the parallels of the start and the end of the game that Joel feels for Ellie what he once felt for Sarah. Joel can't live through losing her again.

[@JadedSpartan719]

I agree. I also think that he’s lonely. First he lost Sara, then it’s implied he and his brother parted ways in a not great way, then he loses Tess. He can’t bear to be alone with himself and his thoughts of all he’s done. This child can justify everything he’s done up until now for him I think.

[@acousticlibra383]

So from what I get after listening to your rumination Lore (which was really great by the way), I’m guessing that TLoU is a coffee situation for you? You said you didn’t like the game, but you did have really great commentary and praise for its setting and writing. So while it’s depressing for you and not your thing, you did well in acknowledging its strengths. The grim and depressing setting is exactly myself and many others like it. The game just has such a bleak atmosphere and I love it. Your take on the ending is very interesting. I don’t think Joel views Ellie as a possession (not literally at least), but I see where you’re coming from. It’s an interesting view that I don’t think many people bring up. It’s true that he does rob her of her choice and makes the decision for her. It’s completely selfish, but not in a “this girl belongs to me and i will do with her what i wish” type of way but “I love you and know what’s best for you” type of way. I think we can see his actions as selfishness motivated by love. So not entirely what you said, but a little of both. By the end of the story, I think it’s obvious that Joel sees Ellie as a surrogate daughter. He lost his real daughter and still can’t get over her death (he still keeps the watch Sarah gave him in the opening even after it’s stopped working) 20 years later. Then here comes along another young girl who slowly worms her way into his heart even though he’s been dead inside for years. In the very last cutscene he says “You always find something to fight for” to Ellie while subconsciously touching his watch. Sarah is dead, but Ellie has become his new reason to fight. And he’ll keep that reason (Ellie) alive no matter what the cost, even if it means humanity won’t find a cure (which wasn’t even guaranteed in the first place) then so be it. So I think that Joel’s selfishness was motivated by love, not by possessiveness towards her.

[@JebberGamingJaws]

I think that Joel did love Ellie. I truly believe that if there were a scenario where it was either him or her to die, he would choose to save her. I also think that the idea of losing another daughter was something that he just literally could not allow to happen no matter what. The trauma and the living with Sarah's death was bad enough, I do not think he could survive it twice.

[@TheNardran]

As you were finishing your thoughts on the game I was a little bit disappointed because you skipped a bit part of the narrative. Tommy community. Although we don't spend much time and don't see much of this it, that I feel is the beacon of the remnants of humanity. I did love the reluctance that Joel have when Tommy invites him to stay. IMO, it might simbolize the fact that Joel doesn't feel 'worthy'. I maybe am reading too much in between the lines here.

[@shomeghuy7226]

32:55 Not a different equation at all. What if a "doctor" told you they had to murder and harvest organs from your niece because they were completely certain they could use that to cure some disease that kills thousands of people every year? The right answer would be "fuck off, find another way." That would not make you selfish. That end does not justify those means.

[@sandrobsnake]

I was losing hope... Some logical thinking. Thank you man. I can't understand how can be selfish to save your "daughter"...

[@JayRNaylor]

I'd argue Joel's motive wasn't possession, but a rekindled sense of responsibility that comes with fatherhood. The fuss Ellie made when she found out he was going to give her to Tommy could be seen as him interpreting her choice. His sense of responsibility weighed in fully when he decided to continue the journey with her, instead. It outweighed his fear of loss. It overrode his instinct to voluntarily sever a relationship instead of lose it tragically, again. When he realized finishing the journey would cause him loss, again, he made a stand. It's funny you mentioned coffee. When they're going through an old coffee shop and Joel absently remarks "Man, I miss coffee." That line had more impact on what the apocalypse meant on a personal level more than all the crumbling buildings, overgrown foliage, rusted out cars, cannibals, infected, and martial law combined. It's strange. I guess because we're more used to seeing all the latter stuff in games before, but then to see that little glimmer of relatable character experience that gets taken away, something we'd share if we were in the same boat, just brings it all home.

[@OnesieTwos]

I like to believe that the ending could have been different if Marlene had found the patience and trust to wait one day. As Joel, we get knocked out before we can save Ellie from drowning, waking up separated. We have to take it on long-expired faith that Ellie would, in fact want this and the sacrifice is what is best. It would have been interesting to see a conversation between Ellie and Joel in the Firefly base after they both wake up, where they can process this choice. Do you think he still would have done it if Ellie had gotten the opportunity to tell him to his face, knowingly, that the price was reasonable? Would he have betrayed her wishes, saving her life at the potential cost of the world? The world may never know.

[@whatspadethinks]

I discovered your channel awhile back and have really enjoyed going through your video game reviews & analysis. You took me back to the bleakness of this game with your discussion, and I remember that feeling I had after the closing scene...I get where you're coming from, although I would say I do like this game very much, but it does leave a palpable darkness over the player for a good while after it ends, did to me anyway. Brilliant stuff, subscribed...

[@smokimusdankimus5353]

Man, I was thinking of playing this again on PS4 recently but haven't pushed myself to do it and I've also been watching your ruminations again. This is a sign! Time to boot it up after the video lol

[@crimsonking440]

It's a testament to this game that so many people here have different interpretations of Joel and his actions at the end. I personally took it as Joel seeing Ellie as his daughter and refusing to lose her even for the sake of humanity. Selfish, but very human. One of the things I love about this channel is that even when we disagree on aspects of a game, you explain your view so well that it makes me see a game I know very well in a whole new light.

[@sandrobsnake]

I think the interpretations must come from the heart of the player, not the character. People playing TLOF in a "i don´t care" way, can have many interpretations.Most people playing this with the heart, "being Joel and not playing as Joel", see Ellie as a daughter and all his actions are driven by love. It´s an interesting thing...

[@gurufabbes1]

I just finished the Last of Us yesterday and of course came to hear your thoughts. I 100% agree with your thoughts on Joel and his motivations near the end.

[@Capt.Slappy]

Full disclaimer, it has been a while since I've played this game so my information isn't exactly as fresh as it could be however, the fact I remember as much as I do should add to the fact that this is a very memorable title. To answer your question, I believe that Joel is a broken man who is as you pointed out pretty much is just running on auto pilot after the opener. The man lost his entire life in the span of a few minutes very unexpectedly in probably the worst possible manner, betrayal. The loss of child and I mean any child to a loving parent is probably the worst pain anyone could ever possibly endure, and I say this as a father of two (dear god the very idea of it crushes the very fiber of my being). Also, he and Sarah would in fact be a lot closer than a typical family. Please don’t misconstrue this as me saying he loves his kid more than I could love mine, what I’m saying is he is a single parent raising a member of the opposite gender (trust me there is a reason why the stereo type of daddy’s girl or mamma's boy exists. Fathers will always be more protective of their daughters and vice versa for mothers and sons) So taking that into account, when Joel finally gets his little girl through hell on earth to someone who should be his protector, his keeper, his bulwark against all that is currently evil in his world utterly betrays him and lets him know it just before it happens, and he is utterly helpless to prevent it is just jaw dropping. Yes, you accurately stated the death of his daughter was the death of humanity (more so for Joel) and I agree with your assessment of his motivations but not as harshly. He is selfish but for more understandable and very acceptable reasons IMO. Considering all he went through and how he undeniably sees Elie as his daughter, she is his chance at redemption, she is his chance to correct his failure to protect the one he loved. The cold-hearted execution of the firefly woman at the end (forgive me I forget her name) is something I 100 & 10% agree with, and not only from my own experiences do I draw this conclusion, we as the audience have the benefit of the outside looking in. What I mean will also maybe…. very maybe explain why The Last of Us 2 is thing other than capitalizing on the fame of the 1st game. Elie has immunity to the scourge of mankind, but I can’t honestly believe that she is the only one out there with the immunity, she’s just the only one known of to the people in this corner of the world. I am almost certain there are quite people in our world that have the be all end all cure for disease x, y, or z floating in their systems, we just don’t know and won’t know about them without a little luck. So perhaps there a light at the end of this tunnel, the fact that naughty dog has made this seem so helpless is credit to their story telling ability, also if they can manage to give the entire setting a proper ending I’d be happy (not saying it has be a happy riding into the sunset moment but proper closure to the world ) …. here’s to hoping they don’t fall anytime soon like so many other developers have. As for an end note, the game play to me is absolutely awesome and the brutality of it gives a lot more weight to the fucked-up world that this game is set in…. even if I can’t seem to aim worth a shit…. so many bolt action misses it hurts.

[@michaelmicheletti5794]

I really appreciate your honesty about this game. I know there have been games that clearly demonstrate a great deal of effort and care that just don't work for me. A very recent example has to be the new Spider-man game, I just don't like that game. So it makes perfect sense that you don't like The Last of Us. Good video, keep up the good work.

[@smokeymcgee7585]

The last 4 ruminations have been golden, thanks! Would you consider ruminating on Logan or God of War ps4? I would love to hear your opinions.

[@kinggoten]

god of war was likely requested, he only accepts request from patrons

[@smokeymcgee7585]

Zero Cool ohh i didnt know. Hopefully a patron will read it and suggest it for me haha

[@uhurunuru6609]

Second daughter, not a boat, that changed when he found Ellie hacking chunks out of David, and called her his "Baby Girl", while hugging her. She saved his life, and he "adopted" her. Clearly parental love from that point. Second games starts only 5 years later, so Ellie who was 15 by Last of Us ending, will be 20, at start of second game. As for no hope, she is that hope. The main issue I had with Marlene's maybe cure, wasn't that Ellie didn't know she would die, as she may well have known, in Boston, before she ever net Joel. My problem is the "Maybe" part, when there's as good, if not much better chance Ellie's children would also be immune. That should have been tested at least. Marlene, and Fireflies were willing to risk human extinction for a slim chance that they could be cured, when breeding Ellie was the logical choice for species survival.

[@miller-joel]

That's how arrogant Marlene was. She wanted to be the one to find a "cure" and "save humanity." If you listen to the tapes, it's very clear she also needs that to justify the horrible things she's done. So she's every bit as "selfish" as Joel, and then some.

[@BenjiDWJ]

Awesome rumination as ever! 😁 this game was absolutely phenomenal it's hard to believe at times that the same studio who created a tremendously fun trilogy of platformers revolving around a fox/marsupial hybrid also created this.

[@InfiniteBalance]

Absolutely wonderful take, you've changed my perspective

[@chainsawsubtlety9828]

Wrong. Joel does what he does because he is a parent and she is his child (surrogate, admittedly). A true parent, who loves their child, would do ANYTHING for them. If that means that the world dies , then so be it.

[@marinary1326]

I appreciate you talking about and generally praising a game which you say you hate, for nearly 40 minutes. And going out there with your conclusion about Joel's reasons! I can't imagine you were unaware of how other people would disagree, and you said it anyways, while not also saying that this is the only interpretation, that all others are wrong, people are wrong for liking this game yadda yadda. It is refreshing to find someone with his own opinions but who doesn't devalue everyone else's. I'm reminded of recently trying to have a discussion about some video game that the other person insisted on turning into an argument by basically saying that their interpretation was the only valid one and that no other view was possible. It's nice to remember that there are reasonable people out there, willing to engage in actual good faith discussion and debate. As for Joel's actions... Something that I haven't seen in the top comments here I've skimmed through is the fact that we, as a player, have been experiencing this game through Joel, for the most part. We meet Ellie as him, we get to know her and we argue with her and though we would not necessarily make the same decisions Joel does, I think the fact that this is a video game with player interaction forces us to have empathy with him, and also to color his actions through the feelings we as the player have. The player grows to love Ellie, not as just some useful companion but as a person, someone we are responsible for, someone we want to see be happy and healthy. I think these feelings color the experience of watching Joel rescue Ellie and shoot Marlene, even if we may not have made the same choice. It's a point of high emotion, and it's the best reference we have for what Joel is feeling. As for the sequel, I am REALLY excited, and see it as a natural progression. Yeah, humanity may be slowly dying out, but it hasn't been that long- what, five years since the first game, and humanity has been clinging on for over twenty at that point. I think our extinction can wait. Also, in TLOU Ellie is something of a deuteragonist- a second character whose actions and growth propel the story. However, where Joel's story of finding a new meaning to live, learning to love and be vulnerable again, and seeing what he is or is not willing to give up- that feels like a complete arc. Ellie, however, has not yet finished growing up, and the end of the game leaves the obvious hook of Joel's lie. In some way, her story will not be complete without the inevitable conclusion- her learning (or confirming) that Joel did indeed lie to her, dealing with the fallout of that, the breaking of trust. Not that I think the game is only going to be about that- but it is something that is going to have to come up in order to conclude Ellie's story. Growing up is when you realize that the adults you trusted to care for you were also selfish, flawed, and not always honest to you. And whether or not Ellie did feel that Joel was lying to her at the end of TLOU, it's not yet confirmed, and she doesn't know what he did to get her out, nor what her fate would have been otherwise.

[@TheNardran]

I do agree with you completely in the motives of Joel. It's selfish to a point that the circumstances mimic that of when Serah was killed. Joel's downward spiral begins with the death of Serah and so it makes sense to me that when the circumstances repeat, this time with Ellie, Joel (now hardened and broken by years of survival, doesn't flinch when it comes to save/protect his “baby girl”. It's a possessive and toxic relationship, but it's the only one that Joel have and allows himself to have.

[@sandrobsnake]

I don't understand this logic... What he should have done? Let her die? Not fight for her? It's selfish to save her... but ok to let her die? I really don´t get how the most human thing to most people on the comments is to do evil...

[@rmsgrey]

+San Blindsnake What he should have done is let her have a say in the decision. She's the one most affected by it, so to not even consider her opinion is a problem.

[@miller-joel]

rms, nonsense. She was a child drowning in survivor's guilt. Not capable of making life and death decisions she couldn't fully understand. She would have sacrificed herself for nothing, before being old enough to even understand that choice. That's why parents have to make those decisions for their kids, and Joel was the closest thing to a parent.

[@marchewkaaron9951]

I've been waiting for a rumination of this game! :D

[@shadow8928]

My answer to your question: Joel's a father, and ellie is now his baby girl. He was given a chance to do what he could not with his daughter in the intro, his own selfish redemption. although even if joel asked for ellie's opinion, there is the issue of the possibility of the cure not working and even if it did work, there's the whole can of worms that is production and distribution of said cure, of which imo is nigh impossible at this stage.

[@andrewlong9799]

You honestly surprise me with the games you like and dislike. I thought you would enjoy this game due to the writing and the focus on character. Then again, I understand your feelings on things that are 'depressing', and that sort of story can really just kill someones mood. Anyways, thanks for reviewing this!

[@Wesker10000]

I like your reasoning for Joel's actions. Reminds me of what Matt Lees said as well. That's the take I ascribe to as well.

[@clearmountain28]

I believe he loved her but it was THAT he loved her. Let me explain. Throughout the game Joel is shown, at his core (at least to me) to be willing to do anything for whatever he loved most. In the opening he drives by people with there children on the side of the road, he even leaves his brother behind, for his daughter. It the interim time from the opening to when the story really gets going we are told that Joel protected his little brother, doing some truly horrible things. Things so horrible his brother eventually left him. Then, although I don't think he loved Marlene as much, she was what he cared about most, so when she asks for him to finish the mission he does. The he grows to love Ellie. And, even if it means humanity dies, he chooses her. Because that is who he is. He is an old west gunslinger, all that matters is what I care about, I won't let you harm it. Whatever he loves most he will do anything for, and Ellie earns his love way more then the rest of humanity.

[@ttobinupinit]

I haven't been a subscriber for very long, but I really enjoy your reviews/ruminations... I like to think of it as having a slightly more worn out Eyore telling me what sucks about well-liked films and video games. I like to listen to your stuff when I'm working on my art... Like my painter buddies who listen to Bob Ross while they paint. But, instead of happy little trees, it's "Humanity is dead..." Playing softly in the background. Thanks, dude... Keep up the good work.

[@MrPKirkbride]

My take on Joels final decision is very similar to yours except Joel loves Ellie and considers her a surrogate daughter and not a possession, however this might just be Joel lying to himself. His decision is very selfish and Joel is not someone who philosophises about whether humanity should continue existing, who has time to think about that when you still don't have food for tomorrow. I think Joels final talk with Ellie reveals his mindset in this moment, Ellie had become his reason to continue fighting and surviving. Ultimately Joel has a twisted and warped version of love fuelled by over protectiveness (As protective as you can be in this setting) and control. This originated with the loss of Sarah, his failure to protect her and the lack of control and powerlessness he must have felt during the prologue. Overall i love Joel as a character despite his actions because you can think up of multiple reasons for why he acted and is only one reason why TLOU is one of my favourite games. Thanks for the great rumination as always.

[@lynkalot5334]

Lore hopefully will have a chuckle at the coffee reference in LOU2 after the infrastructure breakdown..

[@mikecarter86]

Great rumination as ever. I think you could have summed it up as saying 'Joel is not a hero, Joel is not a good guy, Joel is a father'.

[@yodamcyoda]

To me, one of the central questions of the last of us is whethet or not you think Ellie understood what had happened with the fireflies and whether she believes Joel. Personally I think she understood

[@CEEthedinoman]

I actually felt exactly the same as you. I'm always surprised at everyone who feels that Joel's care is selfless or genuine, because the ending almost flat out states Joel was selfish. Through the final lines deliveries and Marlene's words (bear in mind that Marlene knows Ellie well), I think it's certain that Ellie would have wanted to have gone through with the process. She saw her best friend and lover die to this disease leaving her here, and has really no one left. Joel had two options, to lie or tell the truth. He knew that if he lied, Ellie would realize that he killed Marlene, broke any chance (even if it was small) of her saving humanity, and broke her trust. He did all this for himself as Ellie loved Marlene and wanted to take that chance. The death of his daughter broke him, and I believe that he isn't a grey man, but evil. However, he was made that way.

[@sandrobsnake]

Damn... He save a child... And so he is evil... The line of thought is heartbreaking.

[@CasualShinji]

Joel is just a lonely old man who's sick of surviving for the sake of it. That's really what the ending comes down to. The tragedy of Ellie having him open up his heart again is that all that trauma that he burried, all that anger and fear, comes rushing out. Joel still loves Ellie, but he's so afraid to lose it by the end that he's willing to do some pretty despicable things, like coldly executing Marlene and completely betraying Ellie's trust. What he does is selfish, but its selfishness fueled by fear and loneliness. As for a sequel not making much sense in this world… remember that the smaller the human population gets, the slower the infection would spread.

[@FooQuuxman]

It may sound like a cop-out, but I think Joel's reason is "All of the above". Yes. Joel _requires_ Ellie. Yes. Joel doesn't think Humanity is worth saving. Yes. Joel cares about Ellie. And I think this game does a great job of getting the player to see things the way Joel does: we see how far "humanity" has fallen, with the capstone being David. We become attached to Ellie and care about her. And we need Ellie to survive so that there is _some_ sort of bright spot in the whole thing. Or maybe that is just me: when it comes down to it.... I'm pretty sure I would do the same as Joel in that situation. I was genuinely _angry_ in the hospital. There is an interesting point you didn't mention: This game does not have a "final boss" as we normally think of it. Yet it does. The "final boss" is in the player's head: "Are you willing to kill the surgeon? And what about the orderlies?" FWIW on my first playthrough I saw that he was between me and Ellie and shot him without batting an eye. The orderlies I left alone ass they weren't trying to stop me.

[@h.a.m.9840]

I don’t think Joel just saw Ellie as “his”. I think he shot Marlene because he felt betrayed by her. I don’t think he shot Marlene because of Ellie. I think he saved Ellie because he didn’t want to kill someone for something that *might* work.

[@AdamSiuda]

I always respect your opinion and insight about gaming in general and i can see why someone would not like this game. It takes courage to admit not liking some work that is popular and loved by majority. I think there is one scene that represent hope, and that was the dinosaurs sequence. Joel took Ellie maybe because he actually start to care about her, but i also saw pure anger and rage in him. The world took Sara from him, he took Ellie from the world.

[@sandrobsnake]

"The world took Sara from him, he took Ellie from the world." He took her to the destination, but he did not accept that they were going to kill her. He did not take "Ellie from the world", he save her... simple as that.."

[@shomeghuy7226]

28:05 No, Marlene doesn't kill Joel because she wants to think of herself as a good person, and needs to maintain that illusion. She rationalizes all kinds of horrible things. That doesn't make her good, and doesn't mean she has a moral code.

[@sandrobsnake]

On the contrary... Marlene is the villain of TLOU... There is no honor in taking a person life. "We don't trade lives"...

[@0rthogonal]

Thanks for your analysis. Based on comments you made in the past, I’m not surprised you didn’t “Like” this game but totally expected you to still appreciate it and what they were trying to do. As far as a sequel, I completely agree with you, it is unnecessary and confusing. You do know why it is coming though. Sony won’t pass up on a Blockbuster exclusive. Last of Us has sold 17M copies.

[@casmith1998]

"Ellie was Joel's boat." LMAO

[@gage9171]

I disagree with you lore. Yes he was greedy and selfish to the point of obsession it seemed, but it was a genuine form of love. The whole season of spring paints that picture of growth between the two characters. Elle even gave back the picture of his lost daughter and they delve into that horrible past together. This is a man who saw and experienced how much life sucked and what was out there. Elle was innocence, and she took on the world with a spunk that contrasted Joel. Just like any father, he'd do anything to make sure she survived, and like any father, that involves taking away their choice from time to time.

[@RepublicAgent]

I agree with you on why Joel made that choice. To me there is no other explanation than selfishness. It would have been harder if Ellie was awake and consciously choose to die for the cause. Lucky for him that wasn't the case. I believe he did love her. Yet that wasn't the reason he saved her and killed Marlene. For the sake of his well being, emotionally and psychologically, he had to keep her with him. It make sense in terms of possession too. I never saw that very clearly. He does love her. That's tainted now tho. Thank you for doing this story. My enjoyed listening to your thoughts despite the feeling other, smarter people have already given their own. I like hearing what you think. Take care!!!

[@shomeghuy7226]

btw, not zombies. They don't die and then come back to life. There's nothing supernatural about it. It's the opposite.

[@LordMarshalGremlin]

Shome Ghuy I think he meant that functionally infected play exact same role as zombies in a zombie apocalypse. That role could be zombie, animal, mutant, alien. Functionally same setting.

[@shomeghuy7226]

Lord, except it's not the same thing. The spores exist in the real world. The only leap here is that they infect humans. Here's another example. Take guns. They work the same way and do the same thing, but it's completely different if you have unlimited ammo, or you have to scrounge for bullets. It changes your whole strategy. If you are just going to go through the mechanics of the game, as some people do, and ignore the characters and story, you would be missing the point. Completely. You would have it completely backwards.

[@kieranholmes8086]

Hey Lore this is unrelated but have you ever thought about doing ruminations on Spider-Man games? Maybe even the new PS4 one since that probably has the best story out of any of them lol.

[@Ocean5ix]

He did it because he couldn't lost another daughter but also because he doesn't think humanity is worth saving. It was very selfish and that's why I think it's excellent. Even if it works, what is left of humanity to be saved? People that actually got so engrossed in being evil.

[@BIGxBOSSxx1]

I'm so surprised this has never been done before

[@superstrat5826]

For someone who supposedly doesn't "like " this game, you sure are good at explaining alot of the reasons why it's so good. Also, as far as TLOU2 is concerned, I think you're looking at it from the wrong perspective. I don't think the writer is really looking at it from the big picture survival of the world. He's looking at it from a purely character driven driven perspective, Ellie in-particular since she seems to be the one the game will focus on the most. It honestly wouldn't surprise me if by the end TLOU2 the state of the world hasn't changed much, more so just the main characters. I'm could be wrong tho, it's just that the marketing so far seems to be a very personal driven story for her.

[@joecrazy9896]

You can acknowledge that something is well made, but not like it if the work doesn't suit your personal taste. An example for me is that I respect what "Evangelion" is, and what it did for anime. However, I don't personally enjoy deconstruction stories all that much.

[@sandrobsnake]

I need to disagree. Obviously, the player has the ultimate word on how Joel is feeling in the last part of the game. But I was not playing as Joel, I was him, and all I did was out of love for Ellie.Even if the events are not a choice, all that happens is in line with my view of the situation. I can understand people people thinking otherwise, but "my Joel" found his daughter in Ellie, and would kill the whole world to save her. But not out of hate for the world, for love to a daughter.

[@joluoto]

I agree with you that the name: The Last of Us is because this is the last of humanity. In this setting humanity has no chance and will not survive in the long run. The zombies will never go away, and the number of humans will keep dropping, and probably go extinct in about 50-60 years.

[@lovebaltazar4610]

Surprised you didn't like this game haha, great to hear your thoughts as always!

[@sandrobsnake]

After The Witcher 2 is not so much as a surprise...

[@BeanoSmokinAce]

Love last of us so much

[@1stCainite]

Before you get to your belief why he shot Marlene (if you get there) I think he did it, because he could not bear to loose his daughter again.

[@1stCainite]

I agree with you that it was an entirely selfish decision.

[@Esakosarara]

I loved Joel's decission, I would have done the same. I don't know if it's gonna work, I don't like/trust the fireflies and more importantly: I don't care for humanity, I care for people and more specifically people I love... Joel only had her to love (since his relationship with his brother was so deteriorated and he saw her as a daughter of sorts by that point). Besides... "humanity" in this setting was clearly proved lacking. Edited after finishing the video: And she would have sacrificed herself for most likely nothing. Developing a "cure" would have taken too much time specially in this setting and in the meantime all sorts of terrible things could happen to the research, it's team or both (If chopping Ellie's brain of proved useful, that is). But she still would have done it... and that was a hard "sorry but no". And she doesn't know the truth, so it's... ok? right? . . . "THE LAST OF US 2" xD. By the way, I still agree it's a selfish decission.

[@blake112x]

I disagree with the idea of viewing Ellie as a possession, but I can see how people view Jeol as selfish. I personally disagree with that idea. I believe that Joel saves Ellie, because of his own experiences with "for the greater good." And obviously he cares for her. Basically the ending of the game, are echoes from the beginning of the game (the same idea, only on a larger scale). Sacrifice the few to save the many. Joel and Sarah were going to be executed - in a chance - to save all the other people on that bridge trying to escape. And Ellie and (almost) Joel were going to be executed to try to save mankind. And I think people that view Joel as a selfish villain, should also view Tommy in the same light. He selfishly saved his brother and tried to save his niece despite all the other people on that bridge tying to escape. He did exactly what Joel did. The ending of this game is kind of like the Trolly Problem.

[@Anthony19byrne]

I loved the game at the time but looking back i tend to ask myself does it stand the test of time. I don't think it does. I don't put it on & get the same feeling i get if i were to play Fallout 3 or Final Fantasy or even uncharted 2 for that matter. Sone areas stand out more than others but yeah good game but can't stand the test of time.

[@Wastingsometimehere]

I thin Joel loves her like a daughter, but clearly never cares for the fate of all humanity even if her death could save it.

[@GlassesFreek]

Hey Lore! I really appreciate your take on the game! You obviously gave it a lot of intelligent thought. I just had one question: you said you didn't like the game (completely valid btw, I hate when people criticize someone over an opinion someone can't control), yet I didn't spot anything negative you had to say about it. Was that because it's a situation where you appreciate what it does, yet don't personally enjoy playing it? Also, since you said this is the type of thing you would write, does that mean you wouldn't enjoy your own writing or is there more going on? Thanks!

[@Lorerunner]

I thought the depressant nature of the story was reason enough to dislike it, I THINK I mentioned that in the video but it's been a few months since I recorded this. As for my own writing, no my stories have a way for things to actually get better. But I do tend to write dark works.

[@benshihadeh8561]

Lorerunner: I don't like this game. Also Lorerunner: I'm gonna spend 40 minutes praising this game

[@kailryu]

A possession? That's pretty reaching... you're basically disregarding the actual text in front of you to find subtext that's not supported.

[@st2rseeker]

Lore, so what is the reason you did not like the game? It wasn't really clear 😊 The fact that it paints a bleak picture of humanity, without any real relief? On another note: I lean more towards your interpretation of Joel's final decisions, but not to the full extent you present. I do think it's selfishness, but mixed with love to the Sara-surrogate he didn't think or expected or hoped to find. Whether it was a fair assessment of Ellie for him (or whether it was fully reciprocated) is not important, as he latched on it with the desperation of a man who thought he lost everything 20 years ago and been emotionally wounded since - and he couldn't accept losing this for any reason, especially after what he knows (or thinks he knows) about humanity. IMHO, of course, as usual.

[@andariel654789]

In my opinion Joel shot Marlene because he wanted to punish her for trying to take Ellie from him. He took out his anger on her and veiled it in pragmatism.

[@shomeghuy7226]

In fact, he stops, thinks about about, and then goes back to shoot her. As in, "shit, I'm going to have to do this."

[@nakamikado6579]

Glad to know I'm not the only one who can appreciate a game without necessarily enjoying it. I went into this game with the distinct feeling that I had better like it or else. It was a bit frustrating actually; there are many good elements to this game, but the overall package was left wanting. Great rumination! Why did he do it? Selfishness. He'd been through too damn much keeping Ellie alive to just let them kill her now. Ellie is his now and Joel's not giving her up. How can there be a sequel? Because money.

[@sandrobsnake]

"Why did he do it?Selfishness." And that´s because he did not let a young girl died... Selfishness has a new meaning? Good, love?."

[@Sjono]

Zombies make for very bland villains narratively. They’re very One note and in most cases are just obstacles that come in hoards. Of course every villain in any zombie based project will be regular humans.

[@1234kalmar]

Damn, wehener I try to snap my fingers I just cut my thumb with my fingernail. Even if I just cut it five minutes prior.

[@ChairmanKam]

Well that last comment aged poorly.

[@Marshy50]

I'm the opposite of yah. The story is the only thing that was good in this game, the gameplay was mediocre at best. The AI had tons of issues and its yet another 3rd person stealth game that blends in with the rest of them, but that story and the environments were top notch.

[@ChocolatierRob]

Well of course the zombies are not what the game is about, it's called The Last Of *Us,* not Zombie Apocalypse. I must say I am surprised by your upbeat attitude to zombie apocalypses, I've never got the impression that they are actually something with which you can wait for it all to blow over (even if it takes a decade or two rather than a few pints at the Winchester). Generally I feel that they are a two stage disaster - First there is the relatively quick 'annihilation of society and conversion of most of the populace' stage, then there is the slower 'random bands of survivors getting whittled down' stage. Even if the initial overwhelming population of zombies breaks down over a decade or two they are never going to be eliminated enough for what is left of humanity to overcome. Don't forget that in a most zombie stories you don't 'need' to be bitten to turn (it just advances it to a more immediate problem) usually those who die of more natural causes will still become zombies anyway, so they will always be a threat to whatever dregs have managed to survive. On Joel's decision I actually compare him to Kain in the Legacy of Kain series. He makes selfish decisions that somehow turn out to be the better option for different reasons. Kain refused the sacrifice because he was selfish but only later did he realize that sacrificing himself would have been the worse option in the long term after all. With Joel I think that not letting the doctors cut out her brain was a much better option, brain extraction just seemed like a really rushed decision that would misfire badly. Ever hear about the couple that killed to goose that laid the golden eggs? There is exactly *one* (known) person that has avoided zombification and in the time it took Joel to wake up the doctors decided that _killing_ her was the smartest move. "Well gee, she's already unconscious now. If we wait to do more comprehensive analysis or non lethal experiments she might wake up again and we'd have to look in her eyes and all..." One thing that always irked me when discussing this game was how many people completely misunderstood that Joel was _lying_ when he told Ellie that there were 'dozens' of other immunes out there. They heard the tape recording of the doctor saying something about 'other' test patients and conflate the two, thinking that Joel was referring to this tape when it was just talking about other infected subjects, not other immunes. So yeah, Ellie surviving the Firefly brain butchers is probably a good thing compared to the alternative.

[@PinguKrueger]

I really do appreciate you being very objective about something you personally didn't like. Because there is a big difference between not liking something personally, and thinking/saying it's bad. I don't think it comes across exactly what your own issue with the game is. Although I suspect it has to do with the very bleak and depressing setting, and maybe some things crossing the line for you. Just spitballing here, you may very well have covered this in the past, and don't claim to know what your exact thoughts on the matter is :) I agree with you, in that I think Joels actions at the end of game are fueled by selfishness. I do however, as other have said, not agree with you that Joel viewed Ellie as a possession, at least in my interpretation of the word. I think he just couldn't bear the thought of losing "another Sarah". Which i don't really think is possession, or if it is, it's the same type of possession that a father would feel about his child. Which would make every parents fear of losing their child selfish (which of course leads into the whole "altruism doesn't exist debate) I don't think Joel really considered humanity all that much at the end there. I don't think he decided that the species would be better off dead. I just think that Ellie's safety pushed every other concern away. Like the future state of the world. I realized after beating the game how little I questioned Joel's behavior in those final scenes. I was totally on board with his actions because the only thing that mattered at that moment was saving Ellie. Every action taken to insure that was justifiable to me. Which I think really shows how "real" these video game characters felt.

[@jacobgill8912]

R.I.P. Joe Rogan

[@danielmuller6724]

Great video as always, but, if i remember right, you didnt told us why exactly you didnt like the game. Story flows naturally, game play was ok, world was full of details, different groups and characters were interesting and entertaining. Did i overheard the i didnt like this game, because... part or did you forget to share this informtation with us?

[@shomeghuy7226]

No, it's there.

[@aranerem3767]

The best game ever

[@johngun7418]

Tbh I probably would've done the same if I was Joel. I know it's super messed up and selfish. I can't really justify it, it would just be my response.

[@sandrobsnake]

"I know it's super messed up and selfish." Yeah... It's really messed up to save a child's life. And selfish... I really don´t get you guys...

[@elizarkozik4715]

Hahaha yes I Love your opinion :D

[@Valynis]

You say you didn't like the game. Maybe I'm dumb but I'm not exactly clear on WHY you didn't like it, especially since, to me, it sounds like you're praising a lot of its aspects.

[@superstrat5826]

He says it's depressing.

[@johngun7418]

Maybe he just means that he didn't like the actual gameplay. The dark souls rumination is similar. He didn't like the game but he praised the lore and story parts of it.

[@shomeghuy7226]

He thinks Joel considers Ellie a possession. So he didn't get it at all. Never gets to what the "game" is about. Most of the rumination is about background.

[@Spartanj42]

I'm really glad that you disliked the game, for pretty much all the same reasons I don't.

[@roastpork5437]

I presume you do not have any children of your own? If you do then you would understand fully why Joel did what he did. Cause I would do the same thing he did. The last section of the game made me emotional and angry. It was no longer a game, I just wanted to kill all these people so I can save my daughter. Because I understand the feeling of being a parent. It is why parents sacrifice themselves so their children may live. Lastly, why would you ask if your own child is willing to do die or not? She was clearly not 18 of age, but even then... you would not wait until she wakes up and let her choose to die or not, that's not how a parent would react, not even in a normal modern day society so never mind a horrible world the Last of Us people are in. Also, God of War 4 also has different meaning for people playing it if they are a father... that game truly speaks how a parent would respond and would do for their child.

[@jacobgill8912]

I didn't like it either it's clunky

[@Gollvieg]

It's funny, I have always believed that Joel was nothing more than completely selfish. At the absolute best, she was a replacement goldfish. At worst she was just a possession. I strongly disagree with Joel defenders when they assume that because he is the Protagonist he was morally "right" in the end. Even the evilest monster in the world can still have something they care about and Joel have shown and multiple occasions that he does not have one bit of altruism, selflessness or humanity in him after Sara died. Hitler loved his dogs, that does not absolve him of his crimes. Also, the way the stupid fungus works in this setting is pretty stupid. The energy requirements along with the fact that only humans can carry the fungus mean that it would very quickly burn out if people were not stupid and attempt to break quarantine. Even then, the reduced population density would aid in containing the outbreak. It can be argued that the spores can survive for decades dormant, but if it is possible to only require low-efficiency gas masks to protect against then there would not be any major challenge for the NBC Corps to burn it out. I do not believe that this game is "realistic" at all and could only function as a setting because of "Magic Zombies"