Ruslan PRESSES Johnathan Pageau on Praying to Mary & Saints

[@BlessGodStudios]

🤝: Check Out The Bless God Prayer Journal Here: blessgodprayer.shop

[@pigetstuck]

they 100% pray TO Mary and the Saints-- in the highest sense of that word... some Catholics even admit to worshiping Mary (JP2 did)

[@mgoVEX]

Stealing Metatron’s name is Blasphemy @BlessGodStudios

[@vociferous777]

this is spiritual nonsense. and the only justification for it that they seem to have is "you cant be an island unto yourself you have to talk to other christians". Yes. "Alive" christians. Not the countless amount of dead christians. And do i need to mention how making a potentially endless amount of dead mediators between you and God in the spiritual realm will pull us further from God and make us rely more on our dead relatives for comfort? I need a good explanation for how this is functionally different from ancestor worship, rather than just being accused of not participating in the community of christ. I get that Ruslan is trying to extend an olive branch to catholics, which is fine, but sometimes i feel he does not press hard enough. This is looney toons. And i thought confessionals were a bad Idea this is bordering on necromancy.

[@pblegalassets4382]

​@@pigetstuck Not true. Examine the Hail Mary prayer and notice the last phrase has "..Pray for us sinners.." which is a clear indication that Mary is NOT God and thus should not be worshipped. Also please Google Litany of the Saint prayers and notice what follows when God's name is mentioned and compare it to when Mary and the Saints are mentioned.

[@pigetstuck]

@@pblegalassets4382 Look into it. They do make a distinction between the type of worship given to Mary vs given to God... but they do use the word "worship".

[@bairfreedom]

I'm at the beginning of his explanation and I literally do not ask the author of the book I'm reading to show me what God showed them. That has never crossed my mind one time. Instead because I know this is the inspired word of God I ask God what he is saying in the scripture. This is probably the biggest thing that I can't get my leg over with orthodoxy or Roman catholicism. No one has ever been able to give me a logical benefit of this. It's literally like saying " yeah you can go into the throne room .....but instead go into the green room! "

[@definitelynotsarcasm]

His point is that you are implicitly doing that, you are taking words inspired by the Holy Spirit but written by Paul and trusting what Paul wrote to have the Lord further revealed to you.

[@rhuttner12]

Mormons do the same thing you do. “I just ask God what he’s trying to say here.” How do you know you’re even interpreting it correctly, why not pastor Bob? Is a different God (demon) leading him to a different interpretation?

[@jamesbishop3091]

The saints are holier than us. Therefore, they have a closer connection to God and are better equipped to know HOW to pray. Sometimes in prayer, we don’t say/ask for the best possible things. The saints can do this for us because of their status.

[@kenyaprofit]

@@jamesbishop3091this confuses me. So are the saints living like Christ? If so, can you expound on that?

[@jamesbishop3091]

@@kenyaprofit the saints are alive in heaven, glorifying God and praying on our behalf.

[@Michelle071]

I feel like ima just play it safe and pray to and through Jesus

[@tomy2988]

As a Protestant these days I wouldn’t trust any pastor or church either, just go straight to Jesus.

[@Jerome616]

Yes, exactly. You are never obligated to go beyond that if you do not wish to. @@brandonofthedead

[@SabbathPriest33]

Veneration in Orthodoxy isn’t a necessary practice.

[@WallsClips]

you shouldn't feel unsafe about asking fellow believers to pray for you

[@Thenoble1j]

@@WallsClipsthat are alive sure. But I wouldn’t ask the dead to pray for me. Individuals from the time of Moses, or Jesus know nothing of OUR time. For they too are in slumber till Christ second coming

[@AdamLivesayCovers]

Yeah I just can’t say I’ve ever been reading the scriptures and found myself asking for Paul to reveal anything to me, nor am I aiming to be more like him. I ask God to give me revelation, and aim to be more like Jesus (just like Paul was). Paul’s an amazing example of how to live a Christian life but Christ is literally THE example.

[@treilers666vision]

So you dont use theses that Ecumenical Councils determined?)😂

[@windowsscreen]

Shout out to Ruslan for giving the brothers space to speak and not just want to argue. As a former Calvinist( and now Orthodox Christian ) I found it refreshing

[@andys3035]

Former Calvinist myself and now Orthodox. I was a big James White guy.

[@ChristianChannel]

Indeed. He’s a great host

[@haronsmith8974]

@@andys3035 James white made me catholic.

[@andys3035]

@haronsmith8974 God determined he make you Catholic 😂

[@avgeeks5638]

@@andys3035 did you listen to the podcast lol

[@michaelanguiano9749]

I just don’t understand why you would want to do that. Just based on logic. Jesus tore the veil so that we can come directly to the presence of God the father. Jesus literally died for that reconciliation and that direct communication.

[@miguelv765]

I'm protestant but the Orthodox view here is that we pray with them not to them, they're just as alive as we are but have been perfected in their glorified bodies as they stand before our Lord. Also, nothing in Orthodoxy is obligatory I've met Orthodox who take the "Trinity Only" approach similar to protestants, no one can force you to pray a particular way but this is seen as a great resource and not contradictory to the scriptures. Again I'm not Orthodox but have many friends who are, just trying to give a balanced view here maybe not entirely accurate either.

[@BaikalTii]

using "logic" is one of the reasons protestants are referred to as crypto-papists. the western Church fell away from the True Faith by rationalism and scholasticism. we venerate the Theotokos and the saints with love, not logic.

[@Americanheld]

Read the book of Job again. God himself said the prayers of a righteous man are more powerful than your own. The living and the dead who are with God are all one body. Hebrews says we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses. Hence asking the saints and Mary to pray for you, who are more righteous than all of us, is more powerful than even your own prayers. It’s literally exegesis from the Bible.

[@Americanheld]

@@miguelv765you are correct. This is the Catholic and Orthodox view.

[@juanharold5128]

Because the prayers of a righteous person is very powerful so why not God gave us saints to pray for us and Mary why not use it

[@melaniaperez8756]

When I read scripture I am looking to be more like Christ and to learn from what God has revealed through them my thoughts is never to be like Paul but to be like Christ

[@trosenthal3711]

Well, it was no longer Paul but Christ that was living in him. By imitating Paul you become more like Christ.

[@CreationSGame01]

Imagine an authority puts a teacher in place to spread his teachings. This teacher administers the teachings of his teacher. You come along and doubt the teacher, the authority puts in place. Now you ask why you don’t understand something and you are left confused. You call upon the authority for help and he will ask you why are you ignoring my rules. The rule being listen to the people the authority puts in place. It’s like, why bother reading what Paul sent to the churches with this logic. Why bother reading the Bible when you know he didn’t write it?! Exactly.

[@LOSTFOOTAGE]

“Brothers, join in imitating me, and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us.” ‭‭Philippians‬ ‭3‬:‭17‬ ‭ESV‬‬

[@1214gooner]

You don’t ask people to pray for you?😂

[@treilers666vision]

And to use Ecumenical Councils while being “protestant”

[@joseguerrero2253]

Why do we overcomplicate things? Jesus clearly said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one can get through the Father, except through the Son" John 14:6

[@thebenzaga]

This is not so different from asking friends and family to pray for you. It is not a way to “get to the father”

[@diegogomez7240]

Yeah, and the Saints help to lead us to the Son.

[@TheRealTrucido]

@@thebenzaga The dead cannot hear you though.

[@jeannettegodisgracious193]

When we ask believers on earth to pray for us, or anything, we are asking in the name of Jesus, we pray as the Body of Christ to the one Triune God. Jesus gave us the prayer to which we pray to ‘Our Father….’ It’s really that simple, even a child can understand.

[@TheRealTrucido]

The Catholics have a lot of heretical teachings and practices... such as treating the Pope like an idol (not everyone does, but a lot of people do), or purgatory... and others.

[@protestanttoorthodox3625]

Through the prayers of our Holy Fathers Lord Jesus Christ our God have mercy upon us 🙏

[@OrthoDebo]

And save us, amen! ☦️

[@jacqloock]

Idolator

[@windowsscreen]

@@jacqloockPharisee

[@windowsscreen]

@@jacqloockPharisee

[@Oddn7751]

@@jacqloock you really convinced him there

[@Tito_TG]

I don’t ask Paul to help me understand what Paul wrote. I ask The Holy Spirit to help me understand what The Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write.

[@poldreborn4281]

Amen!

[@andrewdurand3181]

One would never pray to a saint to help them understand God, unless we are asking them to pray to God so that we may understand. They are intercessors. Not gods.

[@Tito_TG]

@@andrewdurand3181 We have direct access to The Father through Jesus Christ through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. No other. Not Mary, Not Paul, Not Peter. None but One.

[@andrewdurand3181]

@@Tito_TG Of course we do. No one says otherwise. Pray to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And do so directly. But ask others to pray for you as well. We humbly ask for others to pray for us. Involve the Church eternal in your asks. You ask your loved ones to pray for you. So we also ask those who have shown us what it means to live as Christians since we know their prayer is righteous. God is God of the living. We all stand together as the host.

[@gideon4773]

But there's no rejection of asking your fellow brother for prayer? And this is because we think that prayer is effective, even if it's coming from someone who is possibly not even right with God. But we know that God is not a God of the dead, but of the living. So we ask saints who are alive unto Christ to pray for us, and their righteous prayers avail much. Christ intercedes on our behalf day and night, if those saints have been made like Christ, should it be a surprise that they would be interceding as well? I understand you were taught that we sleep and rest until judgment but the bible doesn't teach this nor did the church fathers that predate the reformers. Lazarus wasn't sleeping, rather he was with Abraham. Moses and Elijah weren't sleeping rather they appeared with Christ on the Mount. Those with ears to let them hear.

[@jonmack2437]

I’m a former protestant, now orthodox, and see a lot of animosity between Christians (which I don’t care about necessarily, debate on!), but I see many do not have patience to hear another position with maturity and understanding. Big shout out to our brother Ruslan for that

[@dimensionninja4929]

I agree, I'm not Catholic but I think we must be more patient with each other. Without hating, because we're only stopping Christian growth

[@timothym2241]

Jesus is fully approachable. Make sure you put your best effort into having a direct relationship with him, as he alone is the truth, the way and the life.

[@jbray07]

@@catholicpog7183 as God??? lol

[@dimensionninja4929]

@@catholicpog7183 he is everywhere. Matthew 28:18 All authority on heaven and earth has been given to me

[@BigJesusGal]

Applauding Ruslan’s gracious posture towards them and not being combative but asking good questions 🙌🏼

[@PeterHeang]

As a person who grew up as an Asian Buddhist..praying to the saints kinda sounds like praying to dead ancestors

[@Yaas_ok123]

It is and also forbidden.

[@rhuttner12]

Well, in correct Christian theology, the people we ask to pray for us are still alive in Christ. They’re not dead….

[@Yaas_ok123]

@@rhuttner12 Connection to dead(not living here anymore) is forbidden.

[@VirginMostPowerfull]

Other religions can have truth in them even if imperfectly. Buddhism also teaches self discipline, so does that mean we should stop being disciplined as Christians? Look up the videos Sam Shamoun did on communion of saints.

[@juanharold5128]

@@Yaas_ok123Saints aren’t dead do you read the Bible? We are all alive in Christ

[@mpsmoov128]

As a protestant ive never prayed to Paul or hoped to be more like Paul. Hes a saint bc the early church made him one. He would say (does say) don't look to him, look to Christ.

[@HudsonFamily7]

I don't believe im even close to being the kind of Christian St Paul was?

[@goalazo93]

@@HudsonFamily7 no need to. We got to be like Christ

[@kohenbrown7606]

@@goalazo93 1 Corinthians 11:1

[@csec8740]

True Eph 5:1 “Does say be imitators of God”, not Paul

[@glennlanham6309]

You just said the Early church HAD AUTHORITY to canonize a Saint....sounds very much not like Sola Scriptura

[@Rooneykillz]

Brothers, Jesus was so clear when He told us, “i am the way the truth and the life… NO ONE comes to the father if NOT THROUGH ME”

[@lukecc1097]

I've never met a true believer in Christ who said if I become more like Paul then I'll be more like Christ. Paul.stated he was chief among sinners. And I'm right there with Paul, I only aim to be more Christ like, not Paul. Being closer to Christ makes me closer to Christ, not Paul

[@johnnyd2383]

"...it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me..." (Gal 2, 20)

[@AnthonyBruns]

Yeah, but Paul is and was more Christ like than I am. So, logically, if I became more like Paul, I would be more like Christ.

[@joshnjericho]

Not the best example, but I understand and agree with what you're saying. Paul did say, "Follow me as I follow Christ." I would say that Paul, as an Apostle, was the exception, and not the rule.

[@sakamotosan1887]

I am not as holy as St. Paul. Full stop. We are not the same. To presume that we are equals would be prideful and presumptuous.

[@4ALC]

Paul didn't want to be more like Paul why would I. I imitate Him in my honor and submission to Messiah

[@alysarenee3915]

But Paul himself tore his clothes and said “we are only human, just like you” acts 14:14-15

[@MelodicDreamers]

Because they were wanting worship and sacrifice things unto them. Praying (asking) is different than sacrificing and worshiping.

[@jamesbishop3091]

Literally a different topic. Paul said that in response to being worshipped. The verse before says that the priest and crowd brought sacrifices for them.

[@bwalyakangwa1973]

People asking others to pray for them is not a New Testament teaching. It all stems from a high priest principle, so as much as it's okay it is not God's ideal. He made us priests so that we can pray on our own, with Christ as our high priest

[@Thenoble1j]

@@MelodicDreamers how if their dead? The ONLY mediator we need is Christ. He is the only person that’s had victory over death. I wouldn’t ask the dead to pray for me. Individuals from the time of Moses, or Jesus know nothing of OUR time. For they too are in slumber till Christ second coming. For God is all knowing, but no where in the Bible does it says that the saints are… there no way Mary here’s the prayers of BILLIONS the only mediator we have is Jesus.

[@victorheras5882]

@@MelodicDreamersprayer is an act of worship

[@Rashomon69]

“For there is one God, and ONE mediator between God and man, the man CHRIST JESUS.” 1 Timothy 2:5

[@OnlyCatechumen]

I love how protestants don't know the definitions of words mediator and intercedor isn't the same.

[@AveChristusRex789]

Why do Prots like you and the others in the comment section always comment this verse but not the verses beforehand: “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” Christ is the one mediator in that He bridged the gap between our sin and the kingdom of Heaven, however, that doesn’t mean we cannot intercede/mediate for one another as the Bible clearly shows we can

[@jacktipton4830]

Thats such a shallow argument google says intercedor is a synonym for mediator. Justify that please

[@gannonleonard]

1 Timothy 2:5 is an incomplete sentence compared to what is written in Scripture. Here is the complete sentence: 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. If "the man Christ Jesus" were to be removed, the sentence still makes sense. "The man Christ Jesus" is describing the one mediator who died for all people. What It does not say is that he is the only mediator, just the one who was "ransomed for all people." How To Be Christian has an excellent presentation on this.

[@anthonyoer4778]

The chapter starts...1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people- 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

[@ac1045]

“No one comes to the father except through me” was good enough for me to know who to pray to.

[@poldreborn4281]

I would also add to this 1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,"

[@TylerMadison711]

Right but you do understand the difference between prayer/worship and me requesting prayer from my dead brother or a dead saint asking him to pray for me from the other side. I sometimes just have whole conversations with my grandmother who's passed on just in case she can hear me. So yea prayer is something you give to God. But I don't wanna ever pretend that my loved ones who accepted Christ isn't with eternal life by the father and there to put In a word for me. Definitely not prayer.

[@yobigmerce]

Amen!!

[@ForkThe6]

The key verses in the bible on this topic is John 16: 25-27. I believe this speaks about timing. Until the moment one becomes born again, that person needs help of witnesses, saints and Angels. The moment when he/she wholeheartedly experiences the rebirth in Christ (more precisely, having the Christ through the Holy Spirit being born inside his heart) he can communicate directly with God in the name of Jesus. John 16:25 I have spoken these things to you in figures of speech. An hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you this way, but will tell you plainly about the Father. 26 In that day you will ask in My name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. 27 For the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came from God.

[@stevenheart-tongue2977]

@@TylerMadison711sorry man that’s straight up goofy. There plenty of scripture that straight up says we cannot commune with the dead.

[@Tony-sy7ed]

Iv always thought praying to Mary and saints is one thing. However, building alters to place bread, and flowers on is quite a bit different. Also kneeling, bowing, and kissing the feet of statues. As a former catholic Iv seen all this done. When I decided to actually accept Jesus into my heart, something Iv never actually heard of as a catholic, I was hit with this abundance of grace that Iv never felt before. For the first time in my life I had never felt more free, free from fear, fear from anxiety. Thank you Jesus for saving me, you are the lord of my life.

[@SabbathPriest33]

1 Corinthians 9:13-14 New King James Version (NKJV) Do you not know that those who minister the holy things eat of the things of the temple, and those who serve at the altar partake of the offerings of the altar? Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.

[@SabbathPriest33]

And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God” (Rev 8:4).

[@juanharold5128]

As A Catholic I can agree that making offers for Mary could be a stretch but you don’t have to do that to be Catholic

[@schld7976]

Sorry mate but you didn't try to learn about your catholic faith. There is the acceptance of Christ as Lord and saviour, it's called confirmation where you as an adult with all your faculties in place accept Christ as Lord and accept the trachings of his church. Secondly, an alter is built for the Lord, yes a statue of Mary or the saints can be present at the alter (as a representation that this is their place in heaven right next to the feet of our lord). Would you not buy your mother, sister, etc. Flowers to show them you love and appreciate them? In the same way we show appreciation for Mary. Now we cant give it physically into her hands, so as symbolic representation we keep it near her statue. At some point you may have look at the pic of your child or spouce and kissed it. Does that mean you worship or love the pic? No you love the person, and since the person isnt in front, you symbolically show your love or appreciation.

[@SabbathPriest33]

I love how when you literally have the Bible prove you wrong, you just continue to live in your ignorance and not acknowledge your own logical fallacies.

[@BennieSmithJnr]

“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.” ‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭5‬-‭6‬ ‬‬ Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6

[@joshuaberrios]

Amen!

[@PantocratorFollower]

Really? So when you go through people to get your prayers answered, by your definition, that is heresy. God being the mediator has nothing to do with intercession my friend.

[@BennieSmithJnr]

@@PantocratorFollower Christ as mediator (1 Tim. 2:5) refers to His unique role in salvation-no one reconciles us to God except Him (John 14:6). Intercession among believers (1 Tim. 2:1, James 5:16) is not salvific mediation but prayerful support. We go through Christ to the Father, always. (Heb. 7:25). 🙏

[@PantocratorFollower]

@@BennieSmithJnr Do you believe that angels and saints intercede for us?

[@hoperoesler]

Didn't Jesus Die, so we could have direct relationship with God and not need an intermediary?

[@jameskeen593]

Bingo!

[@thecrow4597]

No not at all. Christ died to destroy death and revivify human nature. Among many other mysteries

[@djidjine5082]

@@thecrow4597The veil was also broken. We do not need a high priest/mediator. Jesus is the high priest

[@SabbathPriest33]

@@djidjine5082So the apostles are heretical??

[@SoutheastTx]

​@@SabbathPriest33 No the apostles were chosen to spread Jesus teaching the gospels. Scriptures say God hears all of our prayers on all occasions. If we pray in silence or out loud He is the only one that can hear and answer our prayers. I've never heard or seen a passage that says the apostles, Mary or any saints can do this.

[@LanceKirkman]

"Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."" John 14:6

[@juanharold5128]

Y do Protestants try to use the Bible to prove catholism wrong when we canonized it We know Jesus is the only way to the father but it’s also biblical the prayer of a righteous man is powerful and the saints help us get closer to Christ and Christ gets us to the father

[@roman_kofyno]

Exactly, period, debate should be over after this verse. It´s like so many people are full of cognitive dissonance and can´t understand simple text, basic logic... It´s like it would say "blue", but you somehow convince yourself it says "green" - WTF?! Stop lying to yourself, or just find another "religion" and just admit you don´t believe what Bible claims...

[@haronsmith8974]

The Church is the Body of Christ. Everyone who is in the Church is coming to the father through Jesus Christ. The Church is called to help each other and be intercessors between heaven and Earth.

[@orpheemulemo8053]

​@@haronsmith8974 When is the church called to that after death you die your already in heaven and this idea that saints are holier than other saints is hypocrisy because the Bible says all believers are equal non of us Go to heaven because we are holy we Go to heaven because each of us christ life sacrifice has been allocated to us

[@orpheemulemo8053]

​@@juanharold5128 No all Christians are equal and righteous through Christ you don't need saints because you yourself are a saint what's the point stop buying other people's connections to God and make you're in the Bible prayer is only made to God Jesus says his the only mediator a mediator and intercessor are the same thing do you call Jesus a liar

[@xrendezv0usx]

Wow NO I have never prayed to Paul to show me! Whenever I read the Word I pray to the HOLY SPIRIT to speak to me and to reveal His Word to me!!

[@axelhappenstance4476]

I mean, if you really don’t feel like you need anything from Saint Paul then why read his letters? They’re not directly addressed to you after all.

[@xrendezv0usx]

@axelhappenstance4476 you don't know Paul. Paul wants me to pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance. The very LAST thing humble Paul (his name "Paul" litetally means "little" or "humble") would want me to do is to pray to HIM for guidance, or to bow down to graven images for worship. And if you knew Paul you would know exactly Who he wants me praying to!! And YES Paul's letters are written and addressed DIRECTLY to me, which is why I read them (you also should try reading them, instead of serving the "queen of heaven" or bowing down to graven images or blessing homosexual couples. You know as little about humble Paul as you do about Holy Scripture.

[@SuperSarahalex]

There is only one Mediator between God and man. I Timothy 2:5-6

[@miguelv765]

The Orthodox Church agrees with this statement.

[@joyhenry-dp8nd]

As do my fellow Catholics. So you don’t pray for other people than? When people ask you to pray for them to the Lord, our God, you are mediating for them. We have been told to be little Jesus’s and imitate Him and that includes praying/interceding for others to Him. And that is what we do to the saints who are certainly more righteous than us as they are sinless and in the presence of God. In Job God told Job’s friends to ask Job (a righteous man) to intercede for them. God uses His creation to do His work all the time. It is the way He orchestrates things in the ordinary method. For example, when you go to the doctor who heals you with those Antibiotics? Is it only man? Why didn’t you go directly to God every time? Instead He allows and uses His creation to testify Him- like the psalmist often says about the earth declaring the handiwork of God. We, as His creation, have been given the privilege of partaking in the salvation of those around us as we imitate Christ through His grace and help from the sacraments.

[@juanharold5128]

Strawman Mary is an intercessor not a mediator Only Jesus is the mediator

[@RodrigoMera]

Come on, average Prot, say your thing!

[@anthonyburke2353]

Who is that One Mediator and why? What makes that Mediator the ONLY one to mediate between God and man?

[@jacobsutchko1794]

Hey Ruslan! I was Baptized into the Catholic Church last year. I just wanted to let you know that I love your videos. It brings me joy and confidence to see you acting as a witness to God. Thank you for your diligence to your Faith even if we share not the same Tradition. You are in my prayers and I thank you for your testimony.

[@jake-up1027]

If I’m asking dead people to help me, demons might use that as a way to give me false sign’s.

[@NDCCMTX]

That's EXACTLY what happens

[@christinep5807]

Then what’s the point of going to heaven, if you”ll still be “dead”. It’s kind of a sad perspective, if you are a believer is Jesus Christ. We are all considered the Body of Christ both here on earth and in heaven.

[@TheChristianFlock]

And that's your problem, you ignore scripture and say that they are dead when they are more alive than us

[@Rabbinicphilosophyforthewin]

The pattern we see in scripture is Jesus, right? He went into the grave then was resurrected and came out. When he came out, the grave clothes were empty behind him. But I’ve been in churches with bones of saints-sometimes mountains of them (like Kutna Hora). Those people haven’t followed that pattern. They’re dead. They’re waiting for the resurrection. But “God of the living, not the dead”-ok, Paul talks about those who are dead in their sins then are made alive. Is he talking about them being actually dead right at that moment? No, he’s saying ppl whose telos is death are “dead” without the aspect of time-as in a “dead man walking” from death row to execution, who’s not yet dead, but who’s walking to a telos of death. So, “God of the living” means those in Christ have a telos of eternal life. But the souls under the throne in Revelation! In that book that’s chock full of metaphor and symbol, you’re picking that passage to interpret literally? So weird. But, Lazarus and the rich man! Parable, metaphor, esp. considering the entirety of Jewish philosophy and theology. Are you smarter than Solomon (crack open Ecclesiastes)? Jewish mainstream thought has never involved discorporeal consciousness. Jews have believed in resurrection, and Jesus affirmed that in his teaching and in his example. Greeks believed in floaty souls, but I’ve never been inclined to let a pagan interpret the Bible for me (unlike Augustine: “Plato proves that man’s soul is immortal!”).

@@christinep5807 & @TheCristianFlock This is like asking what's the point of going to France if you're not going to be in America? The term "Dead" is referring to the physically deceased. You are subtly changing that to also mean spiritually dead. The bible as far as I know, says not to consult the dead (As in physically dead). The reason we say Jesus rose from the dead, is because he was physically dead and then reappeared in the physical world. He was never spiritually dead / annihilated from existence.

[@IntentionalityMentor]

This was very insightful 👏🏾 & heart provoking... in a good way!

[@ServantofGOD__]

Contextual question: where does scripture infer that brothers and sisters in Christ become omnipresent or omniscient when they transition into glorification? (Personal note: there was much conjecture, and pre-suppositional framework imposed in this conversation; not nearly enough exegesis of scripture)

[@ZippyDChimp-mr1tf]

There was a lot of conflating in this video.

[@gamingterrain3703]

Hebrews 12:1-2 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith.

[@subzee5623]

When John sees all nations pray to God in all tongues in revelations, was he omnipresent and did he understand all languages? When Abraham talked to Lazarus and knew how he lived on earth, how did he know? God can make the saints aware of whats happening on earth, since what is impossible with man, is possible with God

[@chuloc80]

The story of Transfiguration.

[@ServantofGOD__]

@@subzee5623appreciate the position you have. In grace, this is a far reach. We will be blessed with FULLER knowledge in glorification, but that doesn’t mean omnipresence or omniscience. Obfuscation is just not precision. God bless

[@jo-xp7ss]

Jesus Took The Cross for us, Jesus Paid The Price With His Life Blood Jesus Is The ONLY Way

[@thandinkosi6034]

As an African a lot of people here pray to their ancestors, it is the most demonic ritual you will ever see.

[@marcodontplay]

As an African, I don’t fault one for acknowledging their ancestors

[@pilgrimheart]

The dead are dead. We should not ever think otherwise. We pray only to the Father in the name of Jesus through the Holy Spirit. No other man or woman can take that place.

[@kedb621]

100%

[@codymarkley8372]

Except in Christianity the Saints to pray for us, we don't look to them to provide answers or power, but to come along side us and pray to crhsut with us and for us.

[@nuphhrffe875]

@@pilgrimheart what? Everyone who goes to heaven is alive, eternally through God and is closer than we are to him.

[@marinusswanepoel1825]

1:55 - see there is the problem. It is not necessarily a natural extension of that idea. Saying that we have access to St. Paul we can read his letters is all fine but how does it follow logically that he can hear me now when I ask him for intercession. What reason do we have to believe that we have access to anything other than the throne room of grace through the blood of Jesus?

[@jbray07]

There's no Biblical support that any of the saints can hear us. I'm not convinced those alive in heaven can be troubled with our earthly concerns. I've seen Rev 8:4 cited to defend this and I don't see how that proves that claim (it doesn't).

[@marinusswanepoel1825]

@@jbray07 Of course I wouldn't go as far as you do. I think part of what makes it heaven, and by extension the doctrine so intuitively appealing, is the fact that "as a project" heaven is deeply concerned over the affairs of the earth. There is joy in heaven among the angels over the repentance of every sinner. There is silence in heaven before the great plagues are poured out. I guess what you mean is that the saints in heaven have moved on and are, in a way, resting from their labor on earth and to that I say, Yes - I am no expert but I think the saints in Rev 8:4 are people on earth and not those in heaven. I would not expect the Bible to comment on this if it was universally believed that we can access those who have gone before us through our prayers. And so I am very interested to know how the very early church fathers approached the topic.

[@robertlewis6915]

It's equivocation.

[@marinusswanepoel1825]

@@robertlewis6915 yip

[@johnmainwaring6556]

Yes just at that moment the logic that has been building block upon block suddenly gains a sphere upon which all the following blocks are supposed to stand.

[@achildofGod36]

Philippians 4:6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. Pray to God, only; only God hears prayers, only God answers prayers. 1 Corinthians 4:6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other. Do not go beyond what is written. God have mercy on those who worship people by praying to them, instead of worshiping and praying to you LORD, in Jesus' name.

[@sonicrocks2007]

I mean going to Hebrews, Revelation, Maccabees and Tobit alone. You get the saints are in heaven and can hear our prayers and do join us.

[@achildofGod36]

@@sonicrocks2007 what verses?

[@sonicrocks2007]

@@achildofGod36 Hebrew 12:1, 12:18-30 Revelation 5:8, ch 6 , rev 8:1-7 ( for catholic , maccabees ch 12 , ch 15 and tobit ch 12 ) In revelation well everyone argue interpretation. We see prayers grabbed by saints who put them in bowl. Then grabbed by angels and mixed with more prayers then echoed and given to God and then they create fireballs to rain on earth. Hebrews 12:1 talks about witnesses in the clouds. Then elaborates in v18-30. That it is God the Father, Angels and saints and Jesus broke the barrier for us to be with them. And Jesus is one mediator. Now most Protestants focus on Jesus is the one mediator part. But then forget the part Jesus opens heaven to allows angels and saints peer into our lives and are witnesses

[@achildofGod36]

@@sonicrocks2007 Hebrews 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, The cloud of witnesses are those who had faith in God, our fellow brothers and sisters; not witnesses in the clouds. And those witnesses are not elaborated on in verses 18-30, the cloud of witnesses are described in Chapter 11. We are the saints; the Church, the body of Christ, the children of God. Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people. The prayers of the Church are collected in golden bowls, yes, but we are only ever commanded to pray to God, because only God hears prayers and only God can answer them. Philippians 4:6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. Proverb 15:29 The LORD is far from the wicked, but he hears the prayer of the righteous. 1 John 5:14-15 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15And if we know that he hears us-whatever we ask-we know that we have what we asked of him. As well, the Bible I read plus most if not all born again Christians read has only 66 books in it: Ecclesiastes 12:12 Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them. Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body. And it has nothing to do with protestants or whatever denomination/division/separation; true born again children of the Living God know that the focus is on Jesus. Hebrews 12:2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Jesus is God. Jesus is the focus. Jesus is LORD.

[@sonicrocks2007]

@achildofGod36 Hebrews 11. Also had saints who were fallen. And in 18-30 which you didn't touch. The dead saints in heaven are with christ and in the present of the Author. This is actually call back to when Peter went to the Holy mountains and saw Moses. And the dark mountain was actually the mountain of Moses. The Greek words for what is happening Revelation 5:8 and 8. Is Echo and Sieze. The saints in Heavens literial grab and own our prayers and then angels echo and repeat them for everyone to hear. Most translations say they hold it or uplift it. But the Greek is Echo and sieze. As stated in the video pray means to ask. And in catholic theology. All prayers are directed to God through Jesus and the holy spirit WITH believers. It elaborates in catholic catechism that pray to Mary means asking Mary to ask God something. I might ask my pastor to ask God to bless me or my marriage. Likewise Paul says in Corinthians that mankind is higher than that of angels. And Christ says in Mathew he is of the living and not the dead. We see in Hebrews and Revelation and few other places that Christians don't stay dead they get raised to heaven and are with christ and glorified. This is not the case to people in old testiment. Actually in Luke 16. We get the Richman asking Abreham for intercession. And abreham is like no one can stop death and I can't ressurect lazerus. But the irony of the story is that Christ actually totally breaks chasm and actually ressurects lazerus. Meaning that the Richman prayer and asking abreham have lazerus ressurected was actually fulfilled by Christ. Catholic Bible doesn't have additions in it. Rewind 2000, years ago. There were Jewish sects. Saducees with only book of moses. Samaritans with only book of Moses but location for the temple was east vs west. Then the pharisees had 2 versions of the old testiment. One longer and one shorter. The essenes who had a longer canon. Early Christians had vote and chose the longer version however had questions on the books of Hebrews, Revelation and the deutrocanon. This was the Bible used for 1500 years. Protestants on their like 8th Bible and second edition. Chose to pick pharisee shorter canon and combine it with the Christian new testiment. Meanwhile the catholic church doubled down on deutrocanon as scriptures as protestants didn't. If you look into the reasoning protestants didnt want longer essene and pharisee version. They thought it had contradictions about works and had no Hebrew copies. And likewise actually wanted to get rid of Hebrews and Revelation again but this time james and peter was on the chopping block. as well then due to financial reasons cut deutrocanon and jamss, hebrews and Revelationwere saved.. However we would later find out in dead sea scrolls. Surprise catholic canon did exist and did have Aramaic copies. Jesus also knew essenes, pharisees and Samaritans and never addresses hey you have wrong canon. Rather we see the Samaritian woman, John the Baptist ( essene ) and Paul ( pharisee ) convert to Christianity. And they probably brought their canon od different scriptures. Until the catholic church chose the Latin the Bible. Protestants point out there was shorter canon previously used. Yup.

[@mattb4249]

“Asking” those who are asleep to pray for us seems to give an omnipresence to them like a god.

[@izzyhale8350]

God became man so that man could become God - Saint Athanasius

[@jbray07]

@@izzyhale8350 Why would you use a quote from Catholic to defend your Catholic position against a Protestant?

[@Unknown-hb3id]

Except it doesn't. As God is the reason that they are alive - in Him - so too would they be able to pray for us. We're surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. All of this is thanks to God Himself.

[@mattb4249]

​@@Unknown-hb3id So, if you believe you are speaking to the saint's that have passed on, how do you know the following is true: 1. The saint who is asleep is omnipresent and can hear all the prayers of the living, i.e. how can Mary hear all the prayers of those praying to her across the planet if she is not omnipresent like God? 2. How do you know the people you are praying to are actually in heaven? Can you judge the heart like the Lord?

[@Unknown-hb3id]

​@@mattb4249 In heaven, they're outside of time and space entirely. But they can hear our prayers by the power of God. Though we become "like the angels", it is entirely God that enables the prayers to reach them.

[@patrickbell9808]

If this is a part of the church then why is it not predominant within Scripture? Why didn’t Jesus ever tell the apostles to pray to Abraham or Elijah?

[@lepanto3607]

why didn't Christ say in scripture God is a Trinity? why didn't Christ say in scripture "I am God"?

[@rhuttner12]

Do you think all of Christianity is contained in the Bible?

[@rotzen9269]

@@rhuttner12 Revelation 22:18-19

[@tomy2988]

The church and its traditions existed before New Testament scripture.

[@DavidRealMusic]

​@lepanto3607 Christ communicates both of those ideas without using those terms. John 8:58, John 10:30 etc. Praying to dead people is not communicated at all. Yes they are alive to God but they have not been resurrected and they are dead to us.

[@dolceannmarie]

I have this debate with people constantly. Give me ONE bible verse, i only need ONE that tells us to pray to anyone but Jesus. I’ve never gotten one…. Bc there isn’t one. It’s a human condition to refuse to let go of this obsession with praying to dead saints. There’s only one way to the Father… the Son.

[@heteroGMRVet]

Philippians 4 1 Thessalonians 6-7 What is even a Protestant prayer rule

[@smvallet]

@@heteroGMRVetWhere in those verses does it say to pray to anyone but God?

[@heteroGMRVet]

@@smvallet Those are verse defending the use of icons. I’m not even going to address the claim that I offer prayers to saints. Your stance is completely laughable, it wasn’t until the iconoclasts that were refuted and died out and then the radical reformers much later icons weren’t in church’s your church is not even 500 years old, everything you believe is nonsense

[@smvallet]

@@heteroGMRVet That’s an interesting take, since 1. you don’t know my church affiliation, nor my beliefs. 2. I was asking for the actual verses, since there isn’t a chapter 6 or 7 in 1 Thessalonians and Philippians 4 only speaks about letting their requests be known to God. The only mention of saints is in reference to the believers in the church. Very much alive people, bc the dead aren’t in heaven until after Jesus’ second coming.

[@heteroGMRVet]

@@smvallet Only a Protestant would take issue with the veneration of icons and call it prayer. And you’re just wrong about the second part.

[@georgelulgjuraj1007]

In my thirty years of reading the Bible and being around other Protestant believers, I’ve never known anyone “to ask for help from someone who lived a long time ago on earth “. It hasn’t even crossed my mind to do so

[@Zell101]

I totally understand, but that's an understanding that is divorced from the early church's experience and beyond. The Church has always venerated and honored individuals who lived lives of heroic virtue and radically transformed by God. The same Church that compiled the books of the Bible is the same Church that recognizes Saints alive in heaven who can intercede for us, and not the same kind of intercession Jesus is for us to the Father. Obviously that is a different kind of intercession, but a kind that is like a mother or a father who prays over their children, there are Saints who have been graced the Lord to dispense, in some unique way his gifts. Key word is HIS gifts.

[@ryanpowell9003]

@@Zell101 the problem is those you're asking for help can't answer because they are dead (in Christ - Paul says so in 1 Thes 4). Jesus can answer because he is alive and present on Earth currently.

[@raskolnikov6443]

@@ryanpowell9003present on earth? You mean the Holy Spirit right?

[@raskolnikov6443]

@@Zell101the early church is a misnomer. This os not a practice from the early church be it NT or even shortly after. Hundreds of years after Christ is not early.

[@AirAaron88]

That's because the dead have no ears and cannot hear us in Heaven, praying to the dead is utter nonsense and wasted time and effort, and borderline idolatry.

[@mikeeng957]

Scholars believe that Queen mothers of the ruling House of David were crowned, occupied a throne next to their sons, and that both state and religious functions required their presence and attention. That Kings used to honor their mothers in a certain way. Jesus on the cross said behold your mother. That is why she is considered to be the Queen Mother of the new Davidic Kingdom. I find it beautiful how God uses people, particularly Saints to bring people to him; but also to share in his salvific plan. The only tragedy in life is not to become a saint. Jesus wants us to share in his divinity in the afterlife, and therefore the dispensation of Graces through Jesus Christ

[@gregolson7499]

That's just guessing or worse, taking something that Jesus said and figuring out a way to use it as your own proof text. Jesus could also just as well been telling John to take care of her as his own mother. We can't really know, because this has not been expounded on by any of Jesus' disciples or Paul.

[@maluill]

@@gregolson7499 how's it a guess? Jesus is literally of the davidic line and rules from David's throne. This straight from scripture 1st Kings 2:19 When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the KING STOOD up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a THRONE brought for the KING ’s MOTHER, and SHE sat down at his RIGHT hand. Jesus also affirms himself someone will sit at his right hand Mark 10:49 but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places BELONG to those for whom they have been PREPARED.” Who else would it be but his mother?

[@TommyGunzzz]

"Just guessing" lol. The queen mother is widely discussed and understood throughout the OT. Have you researched it? There are dozens of verses, heres just two: Jeremiah 13:18: "Say to the king and to the queen mother: come down from your throne." 1 Kings 2: 13-21:"Adonijah, son of Haggith, went to Bathsheba. the mother of Solomon. "Do you come as a friend?" she asked. "Yes," he answered and added. "I have something to ask to you." She replied, "Say it." So he said, "There is one favor I would ask of you. Do not refuse me." And she said, "Speak on." He said, "Please ask King Solomon, who will not refuse you, to give me Abishag the Shunamite for my wife." "Very well," replied Bathsheba, "I will speak to the king for you." Then Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king's mother, who sat at his right.

[@andys3035]

​@gregolson7499 I'd say you're guessing at best to explain it away

[@witherow777]

Except that every time someone tries to go through the Queen mother with a request of the king, it was recognized as a bad thing and the king killed them… so there’s that… 🤷🏻‍♂️🤔

[@lelandlarochelle312]

I appreciate the distinction and definition they give to prayer. Prayer is not worship.. worship is sacrifice and praying is to ask for help and build relationship

[@FaithfulComforter]

Glory to God ☦️🙏🖤

[@gabof92]

The amount of mental gymnastics these guys have to do to get to that conclusion is incredible.

[@cloudlanding8258]

I Disagree. Any intellectual discussion involves depth. And Jesus requires both. Upmost simplicity. And upmost depth

[@cozzwozzle]

They are trying to explain things in alternative ways, because Protestants get triggered by certain words and argue against things that they don’t understand.

[@mikefox1257]

​​@@cloudlanding8258I agree with what what you said but I also agree this isn't deep. Deep is thinking that, if you want God's will and not your own will then God's will is gonna happen no matter who prays for you. Don't ask for specific things trust the Lord. He knows what we want and need and he'll continue to be a great provider. He already knows and we trying to force him to do what we want asking others to pray for us and keep preasuring him after he knows what we want and need. I think it's mental gymnastics also, just finding ways to justify their thoughts instead of thinking it threw in different perspective. Like me I don't agree but I listen to their perspective and wear their shoes then think what I typed. I'm not convinced they thought about what I typed and I thought about it within 30 seconds but I do have an issue over thinking everything. Much love!

[@Eudaimonia239]

Disagree on this one. When one thoroughly studies and comprehends Christian and church history, many aspects begin to make sense. Education and acknowledging one's lack of knowledge are crucial, irrespective of perspective. That's why I strive to consider all angles from individuals more knowledgeable than me, who dedicate their lives to sorting this out. Examining various perspectives in good faith before reaching premature conclusions. I seek insights, avoiding closing myself off due to my own bias.

[@twitch8703]

It’s funny you say that bc being a Protestant requires heavy mental gymnastics to rationalize. The Protestant Position wasn’t believed by any Christian ever before the 1500s. All of a sudden this Martin Luther guy comes up with doctrine, again why is the reformation trustworthy? Why do you trust that the reformers have rediscovered the faith? How do you know their position was something that was rediscovered and not made up in that time. When you look at the history of the religion you follow, you’ll see that Protestantism doesn’t make sense. I don’t mean any of this in malice. May God bless you🙏🏿

[@MarilynG423]

This was so uplifting to listen to! I’m a returning Catholic and I “had” a problem with praying to Mary and the Saints. You guys just simplified it so beautifully!!! Thank you! This was my prayer for this Lenten season… for God to reveal why I should be Catholic!!!❤❤❤❤

[@nicholassingh5355]

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 - Is clear that the dead know not anything. That their love, hatred, envy.... etc. that they have no more portion in anything under the sun. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Paul says not to be ignorant concerning the dead or those who are asleep, and that their is hope in the resurrection when Christ returns. The dead cannot pray for you. Your loved ones who have died are dead and resting in peace until the Lord comes. That is our blessed hope. "For there is one God, and mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" 1 Timothy 2:5. May this be a blessing 🙏🏽

[@atgred]

Oh but, but Revelation says that they are neither dead nor asleep but praying for us!! Rev. 5:8. And even Jesus shows a “dead man” praying for the living!! And not to God but to Abraham!! ”Then he said, I *pray* thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.“ ‭‭Luke‬ ‭16‬:‭27‬-‭28‬ Or was jesus lying to us!?!

[@juanharold5128]

⁠@@atgredthank you I don’t know for putting this verse it’s so funny because Protestants are Bible alone but don’t read or understand it is clear that saints aren’t dead in the Bible they are alive

[@thecrow4597]

Yes Paul was talking about normal people who are in Hades until the second resurrection. The Saints are not in Hades

[@SabbathPriest33]

@@juanharold5128Seeing all the Protestant arguments makes my head hurt, guarantee you can find 20 people at their own church who disagree with them😂😂

[@christopherpeterson6004]

@atgred None of your scriptures quoted resemble what is written. What is wrong with you?

[@winstonsavage6338]

Where does it say that we become omnipresent when we die? I can ask a friend to pray for me if they are in the room but no one prays for a friend to pray for them unless they are actually talking to them.

[@Androiski]

I agree! Sure I can have my friend pray with me, but not on my behalf. His prayer of repentance will not save me. On top of that, why take a step away from the person of Christ? What does praying to Paul give me that going to Christ not have??? Christ has two natures, his divine and his man. Does physical death make us also perfectly divine (omniscient and like God)? If so, then would that mean we are not yet spiritually alive until we are physically dead, right? The biggest flaw these churches have is regards to veneration and praying to saints. Yes they are “closer” to God due to a physical death, but definitely NOT more like God than us

[@gentlemanbronco3246]

At that point, why are you even a member of the church? The church was set up in order for there to be a communal aspect. When you are part of a community, you also share the community’s beliefs

[@juanharold5128]

Revelation 8:3 saints can hear our prayers in heaven they are more alive than us

[@ecumemeical]

The Orthodox Church teaches, as far as I'm aware, that the saints partake as fully as is possible in the Divine Nature and are perfected in the Holy Spirit. And so our bond with those who have been perfected in Love and are beholding the glory of Christ is stronger than our bond with those who walk the earth.

[@eddardgreybeard]

@@Androiski *I agree! Sure I can have my friend pray with me, but not on my behalf* I think you completely misunderstood "pray for me." *On top of that, why take a step away from the person of Christ? What does praying to Paul give me that going to Christ not have???* The only thing you're asking of Paul is to pray for you. He'd be praying to Christ, for you. You can pray to both of them. You can pray to Christ alone. But it's perfectly fine to ask Paul to pray for you. *Christ has two natures, his divine and his man. Does physical death make us also perfectly divine (omniscient and like God)?* None of us know the nature of our spirit, so who's to say that omniscience is required to hear prayers, or that God alone is omniscient? We know that Moses and Elijah were aware of what was happening here on Earth when the Transfiguration happened, and they were able to speak with Christ. They are clearly capable of far more than what we are capable of now, I fail to see how hearing prayers would be something absolutely beyond them. *Yes they are “closer” to God due to a physical death, but definitely NOT more like God than us* Precisely why the Orthodox don't try to rationalize beyond basic human understanding. I can understand attempting to understand or having an idea about the unknowable. The thing is you're trying to shine a light into a dark room. You can never illuminate the entire room at once, and you can never keep it illuminated more than a brief period of time. It's unknowable. No matter how much to try to understand and rationalize it, you'll never know. And it's every bit as absurd to close your mind to it as it is to claim you actually know.

[@juliamahoney1509]

I’m never disappointed by Pageau’s answers!

[@slomorrison814]

Thank you for this video, these were the two things holding me back from visiting the Orthodox church. I will def be looking into the church more....I'm feeling called to it.🙏☦️

[@Nonz.M]

I encourage you to reconsider. Take a look at an Eastern Orthodox prayer to Mary: "From polluted lips accept thou a prayer, O unblemished, pure and most- pure Virgin Theotokos, and despise not my words, O my Joy, but look down on me and have pity, O Mother of my Maker. During my lifetime do thou not abandon me, for thou knowest, O Mistress, that I place all my hope on thee and all mine aspiring is after thee. Wherefore, at the time also of my death, stand thou before me, O my helper, and be not then ashamed of me. For I know, O Virgin, that I am guilty of many sins, and I, the wretched one, tremble, contemplating that hour. But thou, my Joy, reveal unto me then thy presence, work thy mercy marvelously upon me, O Mediatress of my salvation. Rescue me, O Mistress, from the cruelty of the demons, and from the fearsome and terrible trial of the spirits of the air, and deliver me from their malice, and transform all that grief and sorrow into joy by thine enlightenment and grant me to pass unharmed through the principalities and powers of darkness and to attain to worship at the throne of glory before Christ our God Who sitteth there with His Unoriginate Father and All-Holy Spirit. Amen." This is not at all like merely asking someone to pray for you. In this prayer, you claim that Mary is your joy, in whom you place your hope. You ask Mary to have pity on you, to have mercy on you, to not abandon you. You asked for her to rescue you from evil. It is evident that the role of Christ as our savior, deliverer from evil, and our help in time of need is shared with Mary in Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. The saints do indeed interceed for us, but that does not mean that we are to pray to them. Contrary to what the East and Rome want you to believe, praying to the saints was not a common practice in the first few centuries of the church. Many early church fathers wrote against the practice, describing prayer as a part of worship due to God and saying that those in heaven can't communicate with us: St. Justin Martyr - What sober-minded man, then, will not acknowledge that we are not atheists, worshipping as we do the Maker of this universe, and declaring, as we have been taught, that He has no need of streams of blood and libations and incense; whom we praise to the utmost of our power by the exercise of prayer and thanksgiving for all things wherewith we are supplied, as we have been taught that the only honour that is worthy of Him is not to consume by fire what He has brought into being for our sustenance (The First Apology) St. Irenaeus Against Heresies 1.31.2: They also hold, like Carpocrates, that men cannot be saved until they have gone through all kinds of experience. An angel, they maintain, attends them in every one of their sinful and abominable actions, and urges them to venture on audacity and incur pollution. Whatever may be the nature of the action, they declare that they do it in the name of the angel, saying, 'O thou angel, I use thy work; O thou power, I accomplish thy operation!' And they maintain that this is 'perfect knowledge,' without shrinking to rush into such actions as it is not lawful even to name. St. Irenaeus Against Heresies 2.32.5: Nor does she [the church] perform anything by means of angelic invocations, or by incantations, or by any other wicked curious art; but, directing her prayers to the Lord, who made all things, in a pure, sincere, and straightforward spirit, and calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, she has been accustomed to work miracles for the advantage of mankind, and not to lead them into error. If, therefore, the name of our Lord Jesus Christ even now confers benefits [upon men], and cures thoroughly and effectively all who anywhere believe in Him, but not that of Simon, or Menander, or Carpocrates, or of any other man whatever, it is manifest that, when He was made man, He held fellowship with His own creation, and did all things; truly; through the power of; God, according to the; will; of the Father of all, as the; prophets; had foretold. Tertullian: And if we speak of Paradise, the place of heavenly bliss appointed to receive the spirits of the saints, severed from the knowledge of this world by that fiery zone as by by a sort of enclosure, the Elysian plains have taken possession of their faith. (Apology 47) Origen Against Celsus 5.4: Having thus learned to call these beings "angels" from their employments, we find that because they are divine they are sometimes termed "god" in the sacred Scriptures, but not so that we are commanded to honour and worship in place of God those who minister to us, and bear to us His blessings. For every prayer, and supplication, and intercession, and thanksgiving, is to be sent up to the Supreme God through the High Priest, who is above all the angels, the living Word and God. And to the Word Himself shall we also pray and make intercessions, and offer thanksgivings and supplications to Him, if we have the capacity of distinguishing between the proper use and abuse of prayer. St. Athanasius - For if there were no unity, nor the Word the own Offspring of the Father's Essence, as the radiance of the light, but the Son were divided in nature from the Father, it were sufficient that the Father alone should give, since none of originate things is a partner with his Maker in His givings; but, as it is, such a mode of giving shows the oneness of the Father and the Son. No one, for instance, would pray to receive from God and the Angels, or from any other creature, nor would any one say, 'May God and the Angel give you;' but from Father and the Son, because of Their oneness and the oneness of Their giving. (Discourse 3 Against the Arians) St. Jerome Letter 60 (To Heliodorus). Whatever my words, they seem as good as unspoken seeing that he no longer hears them.... Nepotian is happy who neither sees these things nor hears them. We are unhappy, for either we suffer ourselves or we see our brethren suffer.... if we can no longer speak with him, let us never cease to speak of him. Synod of Laodicaea 35: Christians must not forsake the Church of God, and go away and invoke angels and gather assemblies, which things are forbidden. If, therefore, any one shall be found engaged in this covert idolatry, let him be anathema; for he has forsaken our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and has gone over to idolatry St. Theodoret Exposition of Colossians 2:18: They were leading to worship angels such as were defending the Law; for, said they, the Law was given through angels. And this vice lasted for a long time in Phrygia and Pisidia. Therefore it was that the synod which met at Laodicea in Phrygia, prohibited by a canon, that prayer should be offered to angels, and even to-day an oratory of St. Michael can be seen among them, and their neighbours. St. Augustine: So then we must confess that the dead indeed do not know what is doing here, but while it is in doing here: afterwards, however, they hear it from those who from hence go to them at their death; not indeed every thing, but what things those are allowed to make known who are suffered also to remember these things; and which it is meet for those to hear, whom they inform of the same. It may be also, that from the Angels, who are present in the things which are doing here, the dead do hear somewhat, which for each one of them to hear He judges right to Whom all things are subject. For were there not Angels, who could be present in places both of quick and dead. (On the Care of the Dead 18) If you want traditional Christianity without these added doctrines, I recommend looking into Lutheranism.

[@abford03]

Glory to God! May the Lord guide you brother ❤️☦️

[@ricky01_]

people like Jay Dyer and Sam Shamoun are great at explaining these things

[@Nonz.M]

I urge you to reconsider. Let's take a look at an Eastern Orthodox prayer to Mary: "From polluted lips accept thou a prayer, O unblemished, pure and most- pure Virgin Theotokos, and despise not my words, O my Joy, but look down on me and have pity, O Mother of my Maker. During my lifetime do thou not abandon me, for thou knowest, O Mistress, that I place all my hope on thee and all mine aspiring is after thee. Wherefore, at the time also of my death, stand thou before me, O my helper, and be not then ashamed of me. For I know, O Virgin, that I am guilty of many sins, and I, the wretched one, tremble, contemplating that hour. But thou, my Joy, reveal unto me then thy presence, work thy mercy marvelously upon me, O Mediatress of my salvation. Rescue me, O Mistress, from the cruelty of the demons, and from the fearsome and terrible trial of the spirits of the air, and deliver me from their malice, and transform all that grief and sorrow into joy by thine enlightenment and grant me to pass unharmed through the principalities and powers of darkness and to attain to worship at the throne of glory before Christ our God Who sitteth there with His Unoriginate Father and All-Holy Spirit. Amen." This is not at all like merely asking someone to pray for you. In this prayer, you proclaim that Mary is your joy, in whom you place your hope. You ask Mary to have pity on you, to have mercy on you, to not abandon you. You asked for her to rescue you from evil. It is evident that the role of Christ as our savior, deliverer from evil, and our help in time of need is shared with Mary and the Saints in Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. The saints do indeed interceed for us, but that does not mean that we are to pray to them. Contrary to what the East and Rome want you to believe, praying to the saints was not a common practice in the first few centuries of the church. Many early church fathers wrote against the practice, describing prayer as a part of worship due to God and saying that those in heaven can't hear/talk with us: St. Justin Martyr - What sober-minded man, then, will not acknowledge that we are not atheists, worshipping as we do the Maker of this universe, and declaring, as we have been taught, that He has no need of streams of blood and libations and incense; whom we praise to the utmost of our power by the exercise of prayer and thanksgiving for all things wherewith we are supplied, as we have been taught that the only honour that is worthy of Him is not to consume by fire what He has brought into being for our sustenance (The First Apology) St. Irenaeus Against Heresies 1.31.2: They also hold, like Carpocrates, that men cannot be saved until they have gone through all kinds of experience. An angel, they maintain, attends them in every one of their sinful and abominable actions, and urges them to venture on audacity and incur pollution. Whatever may be the nature of the action, they declare that they do it in the name of the angel, saying, 'O thou angel, I use thy work; O thou power, I accomplish thy operation!' And they maintain that this is 'perfect knowledge,' without shrinking to rush into such actions as it is not lawful even to name. St. Irenaeus Against Heresies 2.32.5: Nor does she [the church] perform anything by means of angelic invocations, or by incantations, or by any other wicked curious art; but, directing her prayers to the Lord, who made all things, in a pure, sincere, and straightforward spirit, and calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, she has been accustomed to work miracles for the advantage of mankind, and not to lead them into error. If, therefore, the name of our Lord Jesus Christ even now confers benefits [upon men], and cures thoroughly and effectively all who anywhere believe in Him, but not that of Simon, or Menander, or Carpocrates, or of any other man whatever, it is manifest that, when He was made man, He held fellowship with His own creation, and did all things; truly; through the power of; God, according to the; will; of the Father of all, as the; prophets; had foretold. Tertullian: And if we speak of Paradise, the place of heavenly bliss appointed to receive the spirits of the saints, severed from the knowledge of this world by that fiery zone as by by a sort of enclosure, the Elysian plains have taken possession of their faith. (Apology 47) Origen Against Celsus 5.4: Having thus learned to call these beings "angels" from their employments, we find that because they are divine they are sometimes termed "god" in the sacred Scriptures, but not so that we are commanded to honour and worship in place of God those who minister to us, and bear to us His blessings. For every prayer, and supplication, and intercession, and thanksgiving, is to be sent up to the Supreme God through the High Priest, who is above all the angels, the living Word and God. And to the Word Himself shall we also pray and make intercessions, and offer thanksgivings and supplications to Him, if we have the capacity of distinguishing between the proper use and abuse of prayer. St. Athanasius - For if there were no unity, nor the Word the own Offspring of the Father's Essence, as the radiance of the light, but the Son were divided in nature from the Father, it were sufficient that the Father alone should give, since none of originate things is a partner with his Maker in His givings; but, as it is, such a mode of giving shows the oneness of the Father and the Son. No one, for instance, would pray to receive from God and the Angels, or from any other creature, nor would any one say, 'May God and the Angel give you;' but from Father and the Son, because of Their oneness and the oneness of Their giving. (Discourse 3 Against the Arians) St. Jerome Letter 60 (To Heliodorus). Whatever my words, they seem as good as unspoken seeing that he no longer hears them.... Nepotian is happy who neither sees these things nor hears them. We are unhappy, for either we suffer ourselves or we see our brethren suffer.... if we can no longer speak with him, let us never cease to speak of him. Synod of Laodicaea 35: Christians must not forsake the Church of God, and go away and invoke angels and gather assemblies, which things are forbidden. If, therefore, any one shall be found engaged in this covert idolatry, let him be anathema; for he has forsaken our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and has gone over to idolatry St. Theodoret Exposition of Colossians 2:18: They were leading to worship angels such as were defending the Law; for, said they, the Law was given through angels. And this vice lasted for a long time in Phrygia and Pisidia. Therefore it was that the synod which met at Laodicea in Phrygia, prohibited by a canon, that prayer should be offered to angels, and even to-day an oratory of St. Michael can be seen among them, and their neighbours. St. Augustine: So then we must confess that the dead indeed do not know what is doing here, but while it is in doing here: afterwards, however, they hear it from those who from hence go to them at their death; not indeed every thing, but what things those are allowed to make known who are suffered also to remember these things; and which it is meet for those to hear, whom they inform of the same. It may be also, that from the Angels, who are present in the things which are doing here, the dead do hear somewhat, which for each one of them to hear He judges right to Whom all things are subject. For were there not Angels, who could be present in places both of quick and dead. (On the Care of the Dead 18) If you want traditional Christianity without the added doctrines, I recommend looking into Lutheranism. Dr. Jordan B Cooper's channel is a great place to learn about it.

[@LemonLimeJuiceBarrell]

I feel like I have really tried to be open minded when listening to the arguments for icon veneration and praying to saints but the arguments just aren’t persuasive to me. Every conclusion seems like a reach but maybe I’m missing something.

[@editlife41]

We dont need to get confused with words. Just keep it simple. Pray to GOD and ask for the rest of us.

[@TheUnapologeticApologists]

I’ve heard this argument. My thing is it doesn’t address practices like saying “hail marry” 50 times to help absolve sins.

[@JacksonScott-os7kj]

don't think the EO do that.

[@helloibum]

Can I pray to CS Lewis is wild and hilarious 🤣

[@Moise_Mpala]

He’s not wrong though 😂

[@YuGiOhDuelChannel]

@@paxChristi123 Sorry man there is zero examples of asking strangers to pray for us, even if they are Christians/"brothers in Christ", I do not ask for some stranger in China to pray for me, regardless if they are Christian, that makes zero sense, CS Lewis is a stranger to us, and he is dead. When talking to living people we know personally they get the message because they are litterally right in front of us and know us.

[@jaybjay4121]

@@YuGiOhDuelChannel James Cap. 5 | NIV-EN 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

[@TheRealTrucido]

@@jaybjay4121 That's talking about LIVING people. Not dead people. Isaiah 8:19 ESV And when they say to you, “Inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter,” should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living?

[@TheRealTrucido]

@@jaybjay4121 Also Deuteronomy 18:10-11 ESV There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer, Or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead,

[@kenyaprofit]

I find orthodoxy intriguing but after watching this I still find it very hard to wrap my head around asking saints to pray for me

[@Yaas_ok123]

No connection to dead people is allowed.

[@miguelv765]

Nothing in Orthodoxy is obligatory if you're uncomfortable with prayers to Mary and the saints then don't do it. My priest gave us this guidance as it has been a recurring issue for converts, Orthodoxy is a journey and a process not everything will come to you at once just take steps in that direction and let the Lord reveal to you what it is He desires for you to know.

[@Yaas_ok123]

@@miguelv765 I have read their official doctrine book, garbage theology. Bowing to man made objects, taking connection to the dead. Dangerous stuff.

[@frankmeyst1923]

They get that out of the book of revelation

[@countdooku75]

It’s fairly simple really. If you’ve ever asked a fellow Christian to pray for you, particularly someone who’s been in the faith longer or you feel is more spiritually mature, then it’s the same thing at a higher level, because the saints are not dead, they are alive in Christ, and part of the body of his church. “The prayers of a righteous man avail much” “Continually pray for one another”

[@chloe-lg2db]

Isaiah 8:19 When men tell you to consult the spirits of the dead and the spiritists who whisper and mutter, shouldn’t a people consult their God instead? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? I think that’s all I need to hear.

[@shawnboahene5231]

Thank you. Praise the LORD

[@universeman657]

Good thing intercessory prayer isn’t necromancy. Maybe you should look into what those terms actually mean.

[@AngelDGomez-vz2vz]

Though I myself feel skeptical in praying to saints (and even the Virgin Mary) since I have had much success praying to Jesus, the Father, and even the Holy Spirit, the following points make me think: 1. There are many miracles performed by God via the Virgin Mary and other saints (such as St. Spyridon). This suggests to me that God is still present within the Orthodox and Catholic churches since they witness MANY miracles despite resorting to intercessory prayers. If this was strictly wrong, some saint relics that remain today (such as St. Spyridon's) and apparitions of the Virgin Mary would be impossible since God does not approve. 2. God, despite being omnipotent, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent, sometimes uses intermediaries for His work as evident by angel Gabriel's annunciation to Mary that she'd bear Jesus Christ, Moses parting of the sea, and miracle healings by the apostles (Peter, Paul, etc...). He can use whomever he wants to perform miracles. 3. Jesus granted eternal life, so Mary and the saints ARE NOT dead, but very much alive. It begs the question, however, of how they'd hear such prayers if they are not omnipresent.

[@hserwahtarwawa5378]

What about these verses ”I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead but of the living.“ ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22‬:‭32‬ ‭KJV Are the saints more alive then as or not?

[@giovanni545]

​@@hserwahtarwawa5378the saints are awaiting the resurection, if theybare more alive than us then why would the be waiting the resuction??

[@bosspaw4028]

As a Roman Catholic I appreciate this video. Great dialogue. We need more of this between denominations.

[@YeetMachinen]

Its like having a tireshop with all the utilities you need to repair a tire but you decide to call the tire shop next door and ask if that guy can bring his tools over and help you.

[@renouncreation]

It is truly meet to bless thee, O Theotokos, who art blessed and all-blameless, and the mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim, thou who without stain bearest God the Word, and art truly Theotokos: we magnify Thee! ☦

[@abford03]

Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, both now and forever and to the ages of ages, amen ☦️

[@Ehhhhhsureeee]

My goodness, this is so heretical. Calm yourself.

[@renouncreation]

@@Ehhhhhsureeee heretical in what way

[@blackwrits]

@@Ehhhhhsureeee the original Christian church is heretical?

[@Querymonger]

​@@Ehhhhhsureeeeyou have no authority to declare things heretical. This is a prayer older than the Bible

[@chrisgagnon5768]

I've never asked Paul to show me anything. I come before the Lord and ask Him to reveal divine revelation to me.

[@house0paine535]

If you are prayerfully reading Corinthians, you are seeking revelation from God THROUGH Paul... Paul's personhood isn't some dead-vessel in that act. You can seek revelation from both simultaneously without problem.

[@anthonyoer4778]

If you read the prayer to Paul and or his prayers throughout the new testament for others and himself, you just might find his story a wonderful example of life and his transformation through his relationship with God. In doing so, you just might find solace through his example in your own hardships.

[@robertdelisle7309]

I don’t believe praying to the saints is an Apostolic practice because :1) we don’t have an example in scripture of believers praying to anyone other than God, 2) the saints would need to be able to hear multiple people praying to them simultaneously in different languages- prayers vocal and unspoken. This sounds like the saints would need Gods attribute of omniscience, which blurs the distinction between God and saint. 3) veneration looks a lot like worship in form and practice. Burning incense to, praying to, singing songs about, bowing down to, kissing the image of are all ways we express worship to God yet these practices are also used to venerate saints. Again, the distinction between God and saint gets blurred. I am uncomfortable with this and couldn’t do it in faith.

[@thebenzaga]

Worship requires sacrifice so in no way are they worshipping icons or saints. Eucharist is the center of worship with all the things that you mentioned in point #3 being things that surround or accompany worship.

[@robertdelisle7309]

@@thebenzaga we offer a sacrifice of praise as believers. Every act of praise to God is our sacrifice to Him. The Bible doesn’t recognize the the category of veneration. The practices and postures that are used to worship God are also used to venerate saints. In them, we give praise to God and give praise to saints. A person venerating a saint may not intend to worship them, but that seems to be the only difference because in practice they are the same.

[@eph3.19]

IT SAYS EVERYWERE NOT TO PRACTICE IN DIVINATION, FAMILIAR SPIRITS ETC. Catholicism is justifying these practices.

[@thebenzaga]

@@eph3.19 they are not familiar spirits though. That is witchcraft

[@robertdelisle7309]

@@eph3.19 Divination is when you seek information from a spirit other than God Himself. If a person was asking a departed saint for information in this way, then yes it would be divination, but I don’t think that is what is occurring. They are asking the saint to pray for them and some are seeking for a miracle from them, which are both unbiblical but it isn’t divination. We shouldn’t straw-man their position.

[@marina-hermione]

It is such a bummer to read comment after comment from Protestants making assumptions about the Orthodox faith while living within the confines of Scripture that they interpret themselves. As a former Protestant I remember being in the same boat with these sorts of topics but at the end of the day, our faith is more than the Scriptures. The Word of God is not the Bible, it is Christ, the Logos, and He has established a church with structure and authority who has given us the very Scriptures. There was a time in which Christinas didn’t have the Bible. Protestantism is innately liberal and although I respect the rejection of Rome, it inevitably remained divorced. I only hope and pray for Protestants to further look into church history with an open heart and truly learn about Christianity and experience the fullness of God instead of making assumptions. Lord have mercy. ☦️

[@yellowxj1]

I've been looking into church history a lot lately. It defiantly gives you a different prospective.

[@yojimboeastwood5602]

Protestants. Had a coworker several years ago that made complaints over a crucifix I hung over my bed in my station bed. The vitriol. It left me speechless.

[@christopherpeterson6004]

@yojimboeastwood5602 Yeah, it's offensive to worship a statue of the dead Jesus! We worship the God of the Living! The good news is that He is Resurrected!

[@MichElle-zc9tu]

@@christopherpeterson6004 Prots are ashamed to even have a Cross on their manmade churches, never mind a Cruciifx of which they are terrified.

[@acaydia2982]

@@christopherpeterson6004It’s for us to contemplate His sacrifice for us.

[@Donk3y-K0ng]

In the name of the Father , Son, and the Holy Spirit, amen. Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, through the prayers of thy most pure mother and all the saints, have mercy on us, amen.

[@DougSamm]

Have always been concerned about this as a Protestant. Thank You for covering this ! I feel much more comfortable and accepting of the subject now !!

[@joeskill4663]

I got to give it up to Ruslan for being such a respectful host and letting these guys speak on the Orthodox perspective ..👍🏽🙏🏽❤️‍🩹

[@themisterg.]

The best argument I’ve heard in favor of prayer to the saints, Jesus was speaking to Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration.

[@joshmeyers372]

It makes the kingdom greater and the participation is a beautiful reflection of glorify. Think about it this way… you have a Father.. but you love also having a mother. And even though you have them, you love also having brothers and sisters, and even though you have them, you love having friends, and even though you have them… etc.

[@dimasvenancio709]

This veneration is so beautiful as the sacrifices that Saul intended to give through desobedience.

[@loeweal5641]

Sure I imagine a lot of things but that doesn´t make that legit but instead it´s my fantasy.

[@edi1499]

Ruslan did not “PRESS” them, bro just agreed and listened

[@riffeteddybear7573]

Yes I love Ruslan but the word press is used veery loosely here lol

[@StillWatersFarm-w4z]

But we don’t pray to the bank teller to ask them to pray for us. That’s the part people like this never explain. I don’t pray to my friend who I can call. Do they practice this with living saints? And then call them and say “hey did you get my prayer?”

[@wpcarey1914]

Exactly! When we ask the bank teller to pray for us we simply say, "would you say a prayer for me." And this is appropriate because the bank teller and I are still in this earthly realm. We both have to live in this world and experience the trials that come with it.. so she prays for me.. I pray for her.. and we both build each other with Christ through prayer. However, Mary ain't on this earth no more. She has no more trials. Her faith needs no strengthening. She is in her sabbath rest with Christ. Let her her rest! And is she omnipresent? Can she hear all prayers directed toward her? Is she spending her entire time in heaven intermediating for the people who pray to her? RIDICULOUS!

[@StillWatersFarm-w4z]

Yes… exactly. They don’t mention scripture at all. I’m actually reminded now actually of Saul using a medium to talk to Samuel and Samuel rebuked him and asked why he was disturbing him.

[@-GodIsMyJudge-]

Prayer means to petition or request though. But somehow the meaning has been obscured and been equated with worship, however that is not the way that Catholics or Orthodox Christians use the term. Worship in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches is the sacrifice of the Eucharist which re-presents Christ's sacrifice (which echoes beyond time) to God the Father.

[@PaxChristi7]

“Pray” means to ask. So when you ask, “can your pray for me?”, that is in the most basic sense, a prayer. That’s why a very common medieval phrase was, “pray tell me”. We know from the Bible that the saints in heaven are more alive in Christ than you or I here on earth. If the saints are truly dead as a lot of Protestants say, then what does eternal life mean? Does God stop being their God once they die?

[@PaxChristi7]

@@StillWatersFarm-w4zyou fail to realize Saul’s critical mistake. He engaged in divination by using a medium and asking Samuel for future knowledge. Asking for a saint’s intercession is nothing like this. It’s simply asking that saint, “I see from your example you were a devout, holy person. Please pray that I may become more like you and in doing so, will become more like Christ”. We know from Job and James that the prayer of that saint holds more weight than my own. So, it makes sense to ask that saint to pray on my behalf. I’m not then waiting for an answer from them or asking them to grant me some hidden knowledge. God will be the one that answers those prayers.

[@oxysz]

Learning so much about the early church recently and going to a baptist church , we really need to do more on the amazing history and lineage of the amazing men before us and hold that to a higher regard. It strengthened my faith a lot learning about the history

[@nathanbrown3544]

As a Protestant, to me, this was one of the most convincing arguments for the veneration of Mary and the saints.

[@Yaas_ok123]

Connection to dead people is forbidden.

[@bairfreedom]

I'm not convinced, but I understand them.

[@nathanbrown3544]

@@bairfreedom yeah, I don't think I'm fully convinced but it was a very clear and charitable explanation

[@juanharold5128]

@@nathanbrown3544the Protestant belief on Mary is unorthodox even Martin Luther prayed the rosary

[@runictellings1536]

I think the book of Hebrews clears this up a lot. We are to pray to Christ who will supplicate to the Father.. Never in Scripture does it state we are to also pray to deceased saints. Prayer is exclusively to God (find me a firm example in Scripture, or else this practice is not part of God's word). Veneration is tied to reverence, and we should only revere God, not man. Also, prayer is not just "ask". While that is a use case, there are other use cases: beseech, comfort, exhort, desire, pray, intreat, besought to name a few in the New Testament.

[@lukesbacon]

My biggest question about this is firstly that Jesus instructed his disciples that when they pray to pray directly to the father and not even through Jesus. And secondly, by whose power can a saint hear you? Does Mary have the power to hear your prayers? Surely it would be through God’s power, and so you would in effect be asking God to ask a saint to ask God for things. So why pray to saints and not just speak to God and have relationship with him? 🤷‍♂️

[@zeenkosis]

We participate in each others salvation is so beautiful ❤ I love reading about the Saints and their lives. I love Mary. But I really struggle with the prayers to her to save us. That’s where I struggle the most with this aspect of theology.

[@devourthetruth5694]

I believe the Orthodox prayers involving "Most Holy Theotokos save us" can be also translated as" Most Holy Theotokos help us" Essentially the meaning is to save us from danger or temptation. Salvation only comes Christ. Though Mary the Mother of God does intercede she does not give us Salvation as Jesus Christ does.

[@shadyflipful]

Who conquered death? Thats the “only “ one that deserves your prayers 👍🏻

[@nikomak7572]

They’re not praying *to* saints.. it’s literally no different than asking your friend or parent to pray for you or to pray for them.. Christ is the God of the living, nobody is dead as all are alive in Christ.

[@BasicTrish]

I guess I missed the part in the Bible where Peter and Paul ask Moses and Elijah to pray on their behalf

[@peterhenryzepeda3484]

The Transfiguration Moses and Elijah appear to Jesus and his disciples.

[@gregorylatta8159]

Living believers can pray for you 🙏

[@MrRainone99]

Asking someone to pray for you and actually praying to them are 2 different things... I don't bow my head and kneel when speaking to a friend... There is a difference between approaching God and approaching man. Also there is nooooo example of the apostles or prophets trying to talk to people who have passed away. None!! Ohhh wait, Yes, there is one. Samuel's spirit was contacted by the witch of Endor due to Saul's request, and Samuel says to Saul "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up? I don't think anyone should be contacting or trying to speak to people who are now with the Lord. You have plenty of people around you who can pray for you.

[@pepisl4906]

My question is , did any of the apostles pray to Abraham or David, Moises, Noah or even to Adan ? Because I don’t see it on the Bible

[@giannismor8496]

There are levels to humility, and there are levels to understanding the theological principles the apostles left. If you really want to know more about the way of the apostles look into orthodoxy. I don’t know enough to help you, and I’m clearly not humble enough since I’m typing this, but I hope you’ll take a look. You may be surprised by what you see.

[@DrMeme-oj5bg]

All I can say to you my friend is look into Holy Orthodoxy and church history. You’d be surprised. I certainly was :). God bless you ☦️

[@MrRainone99]

What does that have to do with the subject they are speaking about?@@DrMeme-oj5bg

[@-GodIsMyJudge-]

But praying didn't (and doesn't) mean what you seem to think it means until quite recently... Prayer means to petition or to request but somehow it has come to be associated with worship alone. But for the majority of the history of Christianity, the worship accorded to God alone was the sacrifice of the Eucharist (which offers up Christ's sacrifice on Calvary that echoes beyond time).

[@JCnumber1]

How bout we listen to how Jesus told us to pray. And not these man interpreted “traditions”. What did Jesus say??? Read Hebrews again. Jesus lives now to make eternal intercession for us. No one else in heaven. Nowhere does it say to pray to dead saints in heaven. We ask folks here with us to pray for the building up of the body of Christ who are here now on earth. To strengthen relationships. When we pray for others needs and God answers those prayers there is a strengthening of unity within our fellowship. There is no relationship with dead saints. I’ll stick to what Jesus says. Orthodoxy, no thank you on this one…

[@Kai-ni1uv]

AMEN BRUDDA

[@troyan4aic]

Our God is The God Of the living not of the dead! Mary is not dead ! Saints are in heaven with the mary! If the word of god remains in you you will remain in him!

[@ceedee873]

​@@troyan4aic That's actually the lie that the snake told Eve, he said "Surely you will not die" most denominations still fall for the same lie.. "Surely we don't die after death" it makes no sense, read Ecclesiastes chapter 9, something most churches consider to be metaphorical when it wasn't meant to be taken that way.

[@ceedee873]

​@@troyan4aicYes Mary and all the saints are dead but are currently waiting for the resurrection on the Great Day of the Lord, as explained in Isaiah and Revelation, and even Ecclesiastes to a degree.

[@jeazurlantes]

​@@ceedee873Revelation said that the slain (dead martyrs) still prayed to God. That is clearly alive in heaven.

[@nikkilengyel]

Beautifully explained! Thank you, this was a great talk! 🙏☦

[@Rashomon69]

“For there is one God, and ONE mediator between God and men, the man CHRIST JESUS ;” 1Timothy 2:5

[@thisgirlreviews1]

10:11 how can they KNOW for sure it's the "saint" that is helping with the miracles?

[@djidjine5082]

Exactly.

[@neyneynanamo2071]

Hello. You can believe me or not, but I was literelly brought back to Christ from the depths of deprvation by the actual presence of a new Saint, a monk that I knew in life, that came to me years after his "death". Not only his presence, things happened too but I will keep those for myself...

[@twitch8703]

I forgot to mention that some Relics come from Saints and that’s why it’s mentioned, it could be their vestments, or object they had on them a lot.

[@roses993]

​@@neyneynanamo2071if that experience was truly from God, then you should praise God alone. About 3 years ago, God spoke to me in a dream through a man of God. I knew God spoke. Not that man. I connected and prayed to God only. Never did I pray to the man I dream or even believed that it was him who spoke to me. The dream was God only

[@winter-wb7cf]

Blessed Solanus Casey’s casket is at the Solanus Casey center in Detroit. A woman came in with a terrible skin disease. She put her body on the casket asking him to help her, and her skin disease immediately fell off and she was cured. That is I believe the miracle that got him the title blessed, as the Catholic Church requires several miracles that are clearly attributable to that saint’s intercession before canonization. The process is really intense!

[@JosueSantiagoG]

I haven't watched a ton of this discussion, but as an Orthodox, I'm happy to see how thoughtfully all three of these gentlemen are participating in this conversation.

[@Ehhhhhsureeee]

"Mother Mary mother of God have mercy on us sinners and help us and protect us from the evil one and the people who want to hurt us ,our life,family.💐💐💐Amen,Amen,Amen" This is a prayer from an EO person on a EO channel. What EO say vs what they actually do is completely different. How in any way, shape or form is it okay to pray to Mary and ask her to have mercy on you? When I ask someone to pray for me, I am not asking that person to have mercy on me as if that person is my savior. This is a common practice in EO that doesnt get talked about enough.

[@BriannaNorum]

👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

[@JWM5791]

She was a human, she can't protect anybody.

[@christinep5807]

She is the queen that crushes the serpent’s head. She is given grace to fight the devil, through God the father and of course her son Jesus Christ. Did the disciples not perform miracles in Jesus name? Are those same graces not bestowed on the mother of Jesus? It’s like saying this, if someone breaks into the house, who is the first to run and protect the children-the mother is usually found embracing and protecting the children while the father is out to defend the family. I think Protestant take forgets the role of the mother.

[@oathr1950]

At the end of the day , we are all praying and believing in the same God , let us pray for his guidence , and wisdom so we can be closer to him .

[@fernandomiranda9736]

One Mediator 1 Timothy 2:3-6 (KJV) 3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

[@CosmicMystery7]

The dead are dead. Those who have finished the race and kept the faith are alive in Christ. More alive than you and I.

[@Tenken77]

When I ask someone to pass me the butter, I'm not praying. I'm asking him to pass the freaking butter!

[@diegogomez7240]

Pray means to ask.

[@eddardgreybeard]

Prithee, "pray thee," literally means "to ask." A simple google confirms this: Pray - Transitive verb. 1: ENTREAT, IMPLORE -often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea, "pray be careful" 2: to get or bring by praying intransitive verb 1: to make a request in a humble manner 2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving Pray can mean worship. Pray can also, even more originally and true to the original definition, mean "to ask."

[@harrygarris6921]

The word pray means to ask. It’s changed in its common usage over history but that’s what the word actually means. When you pray to God you’re asking him for something.

[@valeriehashim]

Any request is a prayer in the original usage of the word:). So yes, you just prayed, and he answered your prayer by passing the butter 😊

[@davidmcbrine4527]

The obvious question that comes to me is, how can Mary or the Saints receive prayers from millions all over the world possibly simultaneously? That would take an omniscient omnipresent being, namely God who is the only one with those qualities.

[@1776iscool]

When you ask a friend to pray for you you don't say things like "Save me this day from sin", and "You are my hope and my sweetness". That's not even close to the same thing.

[@mireliomarzo6468]

♠️They kiss the Icons, bow their heads to them, and light candles for them… if this isn’t a form of worship please remind me again, which verse tells us to do all this as part of our Christian faith?

[@wesleyerickson8661]

The amount of “no one can come to the Father except through me” citations in the comments is something. No Saint mediates for you and bypasses Christ - just as your pastor doesn’t bypass Christ if you ask Him to pray for you. Yes we can pray just directly to God - this is good, but also we are placed in a community and a family and instructed to pray for eachother. Saints in glory aren’t excluded from that…

[@AP-Design]

Much love to my Orthodox and Catholic friends, whom I would call brothers and sisters in Christ. I’m just having a hard time seeing the link between having our faithful brothers and sisters in the Lord pray for us while they are with us on earth to continuing this after they have passed on. While I see verses reveal a continued status and participation with Christ after we pass away, and a reverence paid to them for their faith, I don’t see direct participation with them continue by those who are still on earth, despite how influential the deceased once were to them.

[@annb9029]

We believe god is involved in the church in earth and heaven and god let’s our hearts in the spiritual realm worship together and pray for one another those in heaven are more alive than us on earth Intercession The Bible gives an example of the Blessed Virgin Mary’s intercession in John 2:3-5: “...And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine. And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come. His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.” This verse plainly shows that Mary knew of the miracle that He was to perform, and that it was at her request (intercession) He performed the miracle. The Bible exhorts us to honor Mary, prefigures and compares her to the honored Ark of the Covenant, and gives an example of her intercession: * Luke 1:44-56 prefigured in Psalms 44:14 (Catholic numbering) * Luke 1:35 prefigured in Numbers 9:15 * Luke 1:44-56 prefigured in 2 Kings 6:9-15 * John 2:3-5 * et al. The Bible esteems asking the angels and saints for their intercession: * Apocalypse 5:8 (Revelation for Protestants): “…and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.” * Tobias 12:12-15: The archangel Raphael intercedes presenting Tobias and Sarah’s prayer to God. * Zacharias 1:12-16: Guardian angels intercede with God on behalf of the living of Jerusalem and the cities of Juda. * 2 Maccabees 15:7-16: Jeremias appears alive with Onias to intercede for the people and the city. Protestants try to cite 1 Timothy 2:5 as a command against intercessory prayers: “For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:…” but note that 1 Timothy 2:5 is not even the complete sentence. Read the rest of the sentence, 1 Timothy 2:6: “…Who gave himself a redemption for all, a testimony in due times.” The full sentence, 1 Timothy 2:5-6, is completely non-controversial. Jesus Christ was, is, and always will be the only sufficient mediator of our redemption. Only the Sacrifice of the Son of God on Calvary could ever be the sufficient cause of our redemption. We Catholics acknowledge and celebrate that at every Mass. To ask for the intercession of the Angels and Saints with our requests does no injury to His Sacrifice. As further evidence that 1 Timothy 2:5-6 does not proscribe intercessory prayers, note that the author of 1 Timothy 2:5-6, St. Paul himself, repeatedly asked for intercessory prayers: * Romans 15:30-32: “I beseech you therefore, brethren, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the charity of the Holy Ghost, that you help me in your prayers for me to God, That I may be delivered from the unbelievers that are in Judea, and that the oblation of my service may be acceptable in Jerusalem to the saints. That I may come to you with joy, by the will of God, and may be refreshed with you.” * 2 Corinthians 1:11: “You helping withal in prayer for us: that for this gift obtained for us, by the means of many persons, thanks may be given by many in our behalf.” * Ephesians 6:18-20: “By all prayer and supplication praying at all times in the spirit; and in the same watching with all instance and supplication for all the saints: And for me, that speech may be given me, that I may open my mouth with confidence, to make known the mystery of the gospel. For which I am an ambassador in a chain, so that therein I may be bold to speak according as I ought.” 
[Note: St. Paul describes himself as an “ambassador in a chain”: St. Paul > his intercessors > Our Lord] * Philippians 1:19-20: “For I know that this shall fall out to me unto salvation, through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, According to my expectation and hope; that in nothing I shall be confounded, but with all confidence, as always, so now also shall Christ be magnified in my body, wither it be by life, or by death.”
[Note: The prayers of St. Paul’s intercessors do not injure Christ, but “magnify” Him.] * Colossians 4:1-4: “Masters, do to your servants that which is just and equal: knowing that you also have a master in heaven. Be instant in prayer; watching in it with thanksgiving: Praying withal for us also, that God may open unto us a door of speech to speak the mystery of Christ (for which also I am bound;) That I may make it manifest as I ought to speak.” 
[Note: Another instance of the prayers of intercessors being links in the “chain” to God.] * 1 Thessalonians 5:25: “Brethren, pray for us.” * 2 Thessalonians 3:1-2: “For the rest, brethren, pray for us, that the word of God may run, and may be glorified, even as among you; And that we may be delivered from importunate and evil men; for all men have not faith.”
[Note again that the prayers of intercessors do not injure or offend Christ, but instead glorify His Word.] * Philemon 1:21-22: “Trusting in thy obedience, I have written to thee: knowing that thou wilt also do more than I say. But withal prepare me also a lodging. For I hope that through your prayers I shall be given unto you.” Also Mary was sinless because God himself made her that way to carry Jesus In the book of Habakkuk, the prophet says to God, “Your eyes are too pure to look on evil” (Habakkuk 1:13, CSB).

[@acaydia2982]

We’ve seen Mary still interact with many people over the years.

[@WeWillShowMercy]

Now I'm not Catholic, but I know that those who have died who believed are actually hidden in Christ (Colossians 3:3, and therefore are in the bosom of the Father, John 1:18, akin to the bosom of Abraham, Luke 16:19). Therefore, they are alive because He is alive (and not in the earth), for He is the Lord of both the living and the dead (Romans 14:9). Now therefore, as they are in Christ, as a result, all must go through Christ (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:25, 1 John 2:1). So if one prays to someone who has passed from death unto life (and they are no longer alive on the earth), they must pray to Christ Jesus, lest it reaches no one. I also don't believe that praying to someone who has passed on is evil/necromancy, unless of course, they are wanting to use unclean spirits to seek answers from them; for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For to miss and to want to talk to a deceased loved one is not the same as wanting and/or attempting to conjure them up to speak to their soul/spirit. It's all about our heart, and God knows it, whether it is seeking good or evil. Anyway, that's "my take" on all this stuff. God bless 🙏🩸✝💗🕊

[@jocelyn4981]

Um...no, I'm not asking Paul what he has to say to me. I'm *directly* asking GOD to speak to me *through* a letter Paul wrote to a church in Corinth. I'm directly asking GOD to help me as a learn about history, culture, language, etc, in order to get a deeper understanding of what GOD means me to understand.

[@faithandfailures]

1:45 I have never asked a dead author to reveal to me what the scripture says. I pray to the Holy Spirit that he will reveal what the word is saying.

[@scott7695]

Ehhhhhh….his analogy of “going to ‘St Paul’ and asking ‘St Paul’ to show me what Christ showed him” is stretching it. As a Protestant I don’t know anyone who is asking Paul for clarification on his epistles. I’m asking the Holy Spirit because that is the true author…

[@eliwithgod4848]

Most protestants think of the saints as dead. The saints are in the land of the living. They are more alive than we are. The dead are those that refused the mercy of God.

[@ChristianTurnes]

In 1 Samuel 28 Saul tries to communicate with Samuel, yet he is rebuked by Samuel for disturbing him. Also I understand that a lot changed with the law after the new testament happened, but why is there, as far as I know, 0 evidence that this was practiced by the Jews before Jesus? Yes, just because something isn't practiced in the old testament doesn't mean it can't be practiced now, but I can't think of a reason that, God wouldn't have let us speak to previous Godly figures after their death before he sent his son.

[@eliwithgod4848]

@@ChristianTurnes All souls were waiting to enter into heaven before Jesus opened them for us. After the fall we lost our unity with God and the doors to our heavenly home were shut. Jesus came to rescue us.

[@rachel1lynn]

nobody knows the heart but Christ.. truly baffles me that yall think you know who’s in heaven

[@SabbathPriest33]

@@ChristianTurnesWe’re not communicating with them💀💀

[@SabbathPriest33]

@@rachel1lynnSo you don’t believe you or your friends and family are saved??

[@freedomfisher2496]

As a protestant that has been very interested into especially Orthodoxy but also Catholicism the past 6 months or so, I really appreciate this conversation 🙏

[@Jdaddy208]

It’s not about praying to the dead or living. It’s the fact that the Antichrist might use the guise of “hey! You might really need this overwhelming comfort and peace in these trying times, you could overlook some minor disagreements we have about scripture..” don’t fall for it! Why would we ask God to ask the saint to pray for us? Wouldn’t prayer to God be enough? These “saints” people want to worship were sinners and we don’t even know who they were, personally, but we do know they didn’t hold a candle to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. We can’t let these HERETICS slide in with friendly faces and kind words. They’re here for our youth and they know they what word-choice and verbiage they just use to spread doctrinal lies, such as “there’s so many people! Why would God make so much people, but we consult one person?” What upsets me is that most people my age can’t tell them from sound doctrine and that’s something they’ve perfected. Dress everything up with word choice and inclusion-style vocabulary. Why else would they take out the verse regarding the KIND of demons that can only be cast out by PRAYER (hmm, I wonder if that’s prayer to Mary or St. Peter?)

[@awakeandpraying9913]

Ruslan seemed intimidated by these brothers.🫤 Only the living can pray and intercede TO Our Heavenly Father THROUGH Christ Jesus.

[@wen0651]

That’s exactly what I thought. I was trying to see where he was pressing the guy? Lol

[@Kelly-jb5pq]

Jesus sent the Holy Spirit as our helper

[@jlopez47]

1:12 His whole argument is based on this one weak premise that as we read a letter of Paul, we do so asking Paul what he meant. That is false. We read asking God what He meant through Paul. "Open Thou mine eyes that I might behold wondrous things out of Thy Law" - Psalm 119:18 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2nd Peter 1:21 The words in both the Old and New Testament are not men's words, but God's words. Peter and Paul were both moved by God to speak and pen them.

[@StillWatersFarm-w4z]

The reminder in 1 Thessalonians not to be grieved over those who have passed in Christ didn’t end with “pray to them to remain in communion with them.” It was an encouragement that they are with the Lord and that we will be caught up with them. It appears that there is grief because that fellowship with them is temporarily broken, but to fix our eyes on the future hope we have. But if you don’t believe in sola scriptura you really can say whatever you want..

[@Nonz.M]

Precisely. Ultimately, Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics don't really care if a doctrine is in the scriptures. They believe that their respective churches have the authority to create doctrines and they hold the same weight as scripture.

[@abford03]

We don’t pray to them to remain in communion with them. We ask for their intercessions to Christ who, as sole mediator, takes them to God the Father. We do this because the prayers of the righteous avail much (James 5:16)

[@StillWatersFarm-w4z]

Do you pray to your living friends who are not with you? What does the conversation look like afterwards? Im curious. Any biblical reference for this idea?

[@Nonz.M]

@@abford03 you do indeed pray to them. Let's take a look at an Eastern Orthodox prayer to Mary: "From polluted lips accept thou a prayer, O unblemished, pure and most- pure Virgin Theotokos, and despise not my words, O my Joy, but look down on me and have pity, O Mother of my Maker. During my lifetime do thou not abandon me, for thou knowest, O Mistress, that I place all my hope on thee and all mine aspiring is after thee. Wherefore, at the time also of my death, stand thou before me, O my helper, and be not then ashamed of me. For I know, O Virgin, that I am guilty of many sins, and I, the wretched one, tremble, contemplating that hour. But thou, my Joy, reveal unto me then thy presence, work thy mercy marvelously upon me, O Mediatress of my salvation. Rescue me, O Mistress, from the cruelty of the demons, and from the fearsome and terrible trial of the spirits of the air, and deliver me from their malice, and transform all that grief and sorrow into joy by thine enlightenment and grant me to pass unharmed through the principalities and powers of darkness and to attain to worship at the throne of glory before Christ our God Who sitteth there with His Unoriginate Father and All-Holy Spirit. Amen." This is not at all like merely asking someone to pray for you. In this prayer, you proclaim that Mary is your joy, in whom you place your hope. You ask Mary to have pity on you, to have mercy on you, to not abandon you. You asked for her to rescue you from evil. It is evident that the role of Christ as our savior, deliverer from evil, and our help in time of need is shared with Mary and the Saints in Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. The saints do indeed interceed for us, but that does not mean that we are to pray to them. Contrary to what the East and Rome want you to believe, praying to the saints was not a common practice in the first few centuries of the church. Many early church fathers wrote against the practice, describing prayer as a part of worship due to God and saying that those in heaven can't hear/talk with us: St. Justin Martyr - What sober-minded man, then, will not acknowledge that we are not atheists, worshipping as we do the Maker of this universe, and declaring, as we have been taught, that He has no need of streams of blood and libations and incense; whom we praise to the utmost of our power by the exercise of prayer and thanksgiving for all things wherewith we are supplied, as we have been taught that the only honour that is worthy of Him is not to consume by fire what He has brought into being for our sustenance (The First Apology) St. Irenaeus Against Heresies 1.31.2: They also hold, like Carpocrates, that men cannot be saved until they have gone through all kinds of experience. An angel, they maintain, attends them in every one of their sinful and abominable actions, and urges them to venture on audacity and incur pollution. Whatever may be the nature of the action, they declare that they do it in the name of the angel, saying, 'O thou angel, I use thy work; O thou power, I accomplish thy operation!' And they maintain that this is 'perfect knowledge,' without shrinking to rush into such actions as it is not lawful even to name. St. Irenaeus Against Heresies 2.32.5: Nor does she [the church] perform anything by means of angelic invocations, or by incantations, or by any other wicked curious art; but, directing her prayers to the Lord, who made all things, in a pure, sincere, and straightforward spirit, and calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, she has been accustomed to work miracles for the advantage of mankind, and not to lead them into error. If, therefore, the name of our Lord Jesus Christ even now confers benefits [upon men], and cures thoroughly and effectively all who anywhere believe in Him, but not that of Simon, or Menander, or Carpocrates, or of any other man whatever, it is manifest that, when He was made man, He held fellowship with His own creation, and did all things; truly; through the power of; God, according to the; will; of the Father of all, as the; prophets; had foretold. Tertullian: And if we speak of Paradise, the place of heavenly bliss appointed to receive the spirits of the saints, severed from the knowledge of this world by that fiery zone as by by a sort of enclosure, the Elysian plains have taken possession of their faith. (Apology 47) Origen Against Celsus 5.4: Having thus learned to call these beings "angels" from their employments, we find that because they are divine they are sometimes termed "god" in the sacred Scriptures, but not so that we are commanded to honour and worship in place of God those who minister to us, and bear to us His blessings. For every prayer, and supplication, and intercession, and thanksgiving, is to be sent up to the Supreme God through the High Priest, who is above all the angels, the living Word and God. And to the Word Himself shall we also pray and make intercessions, and offer thanksgivings and supplications to Him, if we have the capacity of distinguishing between the proper use and abuse of prayer. St. Athanasius - For if there were no unity, nor the Word the own Offspring of the Father's Essence, as the radiance of the light, but the Son were divided in nature from the Father, it were sufficient that the Father alone should give, since none of originate things is a partner with his Maker in His givings; but, as it is, such a mode of giving shows the oneness of the Father and the Son. No one, for instance, would pray to receive from God and the Angels, or from any other creature, nor would any one say, 'May God and the Angel give you;' but from Father and the Son, because of Their oneness and the oneness of Their giving. (Discourse 3 Against the Arians) St. Jerome Letter 60 (To Heliodorus). Whatever my words, they seem as good as unspoken seeing that he no longer hears them.... Nepotian is happy who neither sees these things nor hears them. We are unhappy, for either we suffer ourselves or we see our brethren suffer.... if we can no longer speak with him, let us never cease to speak of him. Synod of Laodicaea 35: Christians must not forsake the Church of God, and go away and invoke angels and gather assemblies, which things are forbidden. If, therefore, any one shall be found engaged in this covert idolatry, let him be anathema; for he has forsaken our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and has gone over to idolatry St. Theodoret Exposition of Colossians 2:18: They were leading to worship angels such as were defending the Law; for, said they, the Law was given through angels. And this vice lasted for a long time in Phrygia and Pisidia. Therefore it was that the synod which met at Laodicea in Phrygia, prohibited by a canon, that prayer should be offered to angels, and even to-day an oratory of St. Michael can be seen among them, and their neighbours. St. Augustine: So then we must confess that the dead indeed do not know what is doing here, but while it is in doing here: afterwards, however, they hear it from those who from hence go to them at their death; not indeed every thing, but what things those are allowed to make known who are suffered also to remember these things; and which it is meet for those to hear, whom they inform of the same. It may be also, that from the Angels, who are present in the things which are doing here, the dead do hear somewhat, which for each one of them to hear He judges right to Whom all things are subject. For were there not Angels, who could be present in places both of quick and dead. (On the Care of the Dead 18)

[@abford03]

@@Nonz.M Reread my comment. I never outright stated we don’t pray to them in some regard. I made a qualified statement. I even went onto say we do pray for them, because the context by which we in the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches understand prayer is that it has 2 definitions. One of which is the older more common use of the word which means ‘to make a request of’ so when we ask the Saints for their intercession we are praying for their intercession. This is still not to be confused with worship, given only to God. Peace and blessings Note I also made a slight error in my initial comment so have mercy on me, what I meant to say is we don’t pray to them exclusively to have communion with them. It’s multifaceted. Lord have mercy, God bless you.

[@hyweldda56]

excellent interview and excellently overseen. Thanks