S3#42. Aluminium or Carbon Mast and Rigging?! We need YOUR help... Portofino 52 Build

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In this episode we, the Barefoot Doctors Sailing face some major decisions in the options for the building of our new performance catamaran, a Portofino 52, that are outside our experience - carbon fibre masts, rigging and in boom furlers. We have to make these decisions and look to the experience and wisdom within our viewers to help us find out if the cost of these options, is value and beneficial for us in the long term.... So PLEASE can YOU HELP us....
We also share the process of design modifications in the build process - as this is a prototype and constant reviews of the details are required.
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[@kaydittrich7753]

Dear Barefoot Doctors, a carbon mast would be a difficult decision for me (30+ years in aerospace engineering in Materials & Processes, but only coastal skipper). Carbon fibre reinforced plastics (CFRP) are incredible materials, with high specific strength and stiffness, excellent corrosion resistance (as long as you don't put unprotected aluminium rivets in 😉) and in pristine condition very good fatigue behavior. So a fantastic material for masts. However, there is a potential issue when subjected to impacts. An impact on the CFRP (e.g. a shackle on a swinging sheet) may lead to delaminations on the inside without any visible clues on the outside. These delaminations can considerably decrease the compression strength of CFRP, and a sailboat mast has to take a lot of compression. Also, delaminations may grow in size due to fatigue loads. In aerospace we tackle this problem by testing the effect of different impact energy levels on various material thicknesses of a given CFRP material to determine the compression strength after impact (CAI) and the energy level after which a barely visible impact damage (BVID) occurs with the logic that any impact level below BVID shall not have a detrimental effect over the lifetime of the aircraft. So if done properly if there is no BVID no problem shall occur. I cannot comment on the design of sailboat masts, but if you followed the last Vendee Globe you may have noticed the number of CFRP masts that broke, and race teams have all the know how and equipment (e.g. ultrasonic inspection) to identify delaminations. For a cruiser I assume the mast manufacturer uses a large safety factor. In my mind these considerations are not a show stopper for CFRP (aluminum masts may break as well), but I would propose to interview the mast manufacturer about how they tackle impact damages, what their experience is and how thick the laminate is (the thicker the laminate, the less risk there is for large delaminations below BVID level). If the answer is not satisfactory I would be cautious. And better use a soft shackle. Have fun with your boat design! Cheers

[@KirkThomson]

That's the kind of information everyone considering CFRP needs. Thank you!!

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Kay, lots of great info there and we have already started using soft shackles instead of SS. Very useful thanks!

[@Bigfish300]

Carbon is a dissimilar material to the aluminium on your boat. Every fixture will have corrosion. I am glad about the hull mod. I could not understand shortening your waterline lenght and having an inverted step at the waterline. In boom furling Riley and Elana from Lavagabond tested a trimiran with In boom furling with catastrophic failure on their youtube channel. The sail could NOT be brought down when the furler jammed. The boom angle is critical as per your own boat builder.. You want to save 170 kilo in the carbon mast but add a dishwasher, washer, dryer, full size refrigerator and a dive compressor?? Total weight 300 kilo... You are not going to race. I am sure that you can reef normal sails right from the helm.

[@clivestainlesssteelwomble7665]

@@Bigfish300 That was a particularly bad example. The guys from Dazcat have a very long experience with boom furling systems and designs .. The strength of the goose neck is just one critical area.... But they are a boon done right for short handed sailing . Lagoon have just developed a design to overcome some of the potential failings of roller booms ...basically its a larger diameter open roller system thats got nothing to jam on and a hefty goose neck .

[@gordondyer4587]

I saw that episode and was stunned at their arrogance for not finding out how to use the furling boom first, (which was obvious before they left the dock, doing everything contrary to the manual, breaking it and then dissing the manufacturer. Furling booms are not for novices or people who think they know everything. I do not allow experianced sailor friends on my boat to use my furling boom until they really have their head around it. There is a lot to learn if you do not want problems and want the benefits of one.

[@ZeroDot42]

Hi, 7 minutes and 10 seconds into the vid ,the hydraulic fitting is a 90 deg into the boom furler the usual fail point will be where the black hydraulic hose goes into the fitting crimp..consider a 45 deg fitting ..my ten cents worth of experience with hydraulic hose

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Zero Dot! Good point and I am not sure which that brand was but I expect it would be in the "not good" group we are not considering.....

[@davidolson7575]

I have used Sheldon In-mast furling without issue I love it!

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi David, good to hear! I do see lots of monohulls esp in the charter fleet that use them so presumably they are reliable enough or the fleets would not use them... Thanks for the feedback. The other disadvantage is that you lose the leech surface area and the square topped main which cats often use...

[@RGF56]

In regard to the boom furling I watched a Xquisite X5 plus review recently and it has Boom furling . So you can monitor the furling it has a camera mounted on the mast . Pretty easy solution . Cheers

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks RGF, yes that sounds like a good process.

[@leeway777]

The answer is simple: Aluminum. If lightning hits a carbon fiber mast, the mast will shatter, and passengers may be hurt. If lightning hits an aluminum boat, the aluminum mast will work as a lightning rod, saving passengers.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Lee, great point!

[@JCKR-yv4gy]

As usually, a very enjoyable experience to watch your video. I love the technical parts you discuss - it gives insight to the ship not normally seen. And - what a surprise to see that I was relatively near the correct answer. Thanks!

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thank you very much, JCKR! Please can you send me your email for the prize - to [e-mail] please

[@rodlynch2319]

I've owned sailboats for over forty years. As anyone knows, the more stuff you put on a boat the more things can go wrong. When I bought a Beneteau 47 last year I had as a priority electric winches and furling main because I sail mostly solo but I compromised with the main because the boat I found was an absolute beauty. It had a new triple reef main with single line reefing which I have only used once in the past year. Raising and dropping the main into an open sail cover with lazyjacks is a breeze, it drops in seconds. I wonder if fabric strength is lower with a boom furler? I know it is with a mast furler. Rigging... Stainless has always worked in the past, why change? Best regards.

[@rodlynch2319]

PS Weight advantage with a carbon mast is an advantage but mainly in monohulls to improve mast weight at top half of mast to reduce healing. Not really an issue with a cat

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Rod, yes, you raise all the issues we struggling with. The sail strength though with boom Furler is no different and we are favouring a good performing well shaped sail, whatever rig we get. The weight, as you say is less important but we are told that the ride is smoother with carbon as there is less momentum on the waves (?just sales pitch). Other other big worry with carbon is that lightning even near the boat (proximity strike) means you need a new mast.... So it will be a decision that we have to make!

[@rodlynch2319]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 good point about sail pitch (hobby-horsing) I've owned two cats and it's never occurred to me weight aloft will contribute to this. Still not too old to learn :)

[@PeterAcrat]

Aluminium mast, carbon fibre furling boom and dyneema rigging. If you can get some sailing experience on a boom furling vessel that would give you some quality information to for your considerations.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi Peter, having sail on a boat with boom furling is a really good idea! Thanks for your comment.

[@kptbillburkett8735]

I personally like a Boom furler. Because it is easier to reef. And if for some reason it jams, you can still drop it.( Most of the time when they jam it is because the sail is old or torn) Now my opinion on carbon fiber or Aluminum. Carbon fiber is light and strong, But Very expensive. And when it breaks, it is very expensive to replace or fix. Where Aluminum is Strong and cheaper and easier to replace if you have to. You have to remember your a cruising boat and not a racing boat. Ok a few weeks ago ya'll was going to tell us how the boat cought fire 🔥 ( I believe from what I have seen it started from the Wiring of the solar panels) Just from what I could see. Ok Thank you for asking us what we think. I hope it helps. Ok until next time ⏲️, Aloha from the Big Island of Hawaii! Cheers 🍻

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi Bill, thanks again for your info and advice- very valuable. We are hoping to get the fire video out next episode....

[@user-hw5ow9zr7q]

If you can afford it, always go for the best. So my choice would be a carbon mast for the weight savings and stiffness, I would also seriously consider a rotating carbon mast, actually no I wouldn't, I'd insist on it. Carbon rigging 100% yes, but not all carbon rigging are created equal. I'd suggest you look at the latest racing carbon rigging that not only saves weight and adds strength but incredibly reduces wind drag. Now if you think, what wind drag from the rigging! You'd be surprised. Your mast is probably going to be 60 to 75' above your deck. So that's say 80' per each length of rigging, say by an inch thick. By the time you add this area of all rigging pieces you'll come to around 3m² or more. For an example, an 8x4ft sheet of plywood is 2.88m², now imagine being at anchor during a storm 50 knot winds. Now image the force or strength needed to hold and 8x4 sheet of plywood vertically on the deck and the extra drag this will put on your anchor. Unlike the freeboard of your hills which typically the hills mostly point into the wind, your rigging is a major drag in ALL wind directions. So I suggest your rigging is a major consideration. Boom furler, one one option, go for the best money can buy. You'll be glad you did! Good luck guys! 😃😃

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks HW, great info and very sensible. I had not heard about the wind drag benefits from carbon rigging but had expected the boom Furler to reduce drag immensely because of the absence of boom bag and all the Lazyjacks...

[@user-hw5ow9zr7q]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 You're very welcome 😃 The boom furler is a no brainer. There's you both in the cockpit enjoying the sail and a sudden storm blows in, you look at each other, shrug your shoulders, push a button and the main is reefed AND you think nothing more of it, just continue your conversation. The "other way" you suddenly see the storm coming, drop everything, hurriedly grab your harnesses, rush up on deck and try to reef the main in howling winds, your partner is in the cockpit panicking, hoping you don't trip, you're struggling with lines everywhere and after 20 minutes or so you scamper back to the cockpit, wet through, freezing cold and thinking there's got to be a better way! As for the conversation you were having prior to the storm, well that's long gone and forgotten! Really a no brainer 😃 The only choice is which one and my suggestion is to get the best one so you can enjoy the relaxation, safety and enjoyment you've both dreamed about for many years to come!

[@MrHelmuth1]

Many very good and thoughtful views and advises ! I personally prefer mast furling over boom curlers and am a carbon fiber enthusiast… but I accept also aluminum as viable, especially for cruising boats and cost reduction. In the end it boils down to individual preferences and means, as well as good or bad experiences with the different systems.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Helmuth - good to get your experiences. We have not experienced carbon or boom furlers so everyone's comments are very interesting!

[@bryankapteyn8489]

Check on insurance cost CF versus aluminium. A friend just installed a new CF mast, and then found out the insurance was astronomical

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks for that info Bryan - no-one else has mentioned THAT yet!!!!

[@WillN2Go1]

I've got in mast furling on my 20 year old Hunter 456, I've owned it for two years. Initially furling worked, then I went through months of always being jammed, then.... and now it's working. They can be fussy, mechanical issues can magnify with wear, stretch, bit of corrosion.... but mostly voodoo, and those fussy angles (I was told about the 'angles' and then I figured out that slack lets the sail geometry choose the angle it likes. I might be wrong. ) I'd want to talk to riggers (and bo'suns) who actually use/fix the furlers, What are all the possible problems? And sailors who've been in storms with them, who've had problems in remote areas and resolved them. Duct tape and bailing wire or a long wait for air freight? Ideally, I'd want to sail at least a few weeks on a boat with the system I'm thinking about buying. Experience in sailing is almost better than money. And can be harder to find. And $50k? Is there a boom furling cartel? Find a manufacturing engineer/consultant who knows about pricing, s/he'll be able to tell you if the price is reasonable and where the $30k one cut corners and if those corners maybe shouldn't be cut. An engineer like this will know the price of each screw, cost of the materials, milling, ball bearings... and how the company could save a Euro by.... You just want the big picture so it should be easy for them. Portafino might know someone. The huge pluses are of course: furling and unfurling and especially single handed reefing. Crossing the North Pacific in June, with Predict Wind, so we never got in the middle of any storms, pretty good weather; we still reefed all the time. Personally, I might've reefed more, like every evening -- we didn't do that. (So even more reefing.) Of course a roller system makes this dead easy - and there's three fewer lines to get chaffed (I had to redo the third reef and figure out how to run it through the boom.) A downside is when the sail stretches gets baggy (Dacron) you might start to have problems with it taking up too much room in the boom. I expect you'll be getting carbon fiber sails so, perfect until they need replacing. The carbon mast/rigging question, I think is really a money question. If you have the money and spending it doesn't damage or risk your future, go for it. If you don't than don't. Everything will be so amazing you probably won't notice the difference. Also, someone with performance boat like an ORC would definitely want this, someone with a Leopard or Lagoon it wouldn't make any sense. Also what's the longevity of the carbon compared with aluminum/Dacron/stainless steel? Hope this is of some benefit.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks again Will! Great advice and very sensible....

[@kirkb3473]

This is something I can speak to, having sailed 7k open ocean miles this year on 50’ performance catamarans 3k with Carbon Fiber mast & rigging 4K miles with aluminum masts & steel rigging. First off you get what you pay for and a quality Carbon mast and rigging is $250k, I know because I have all the quotes in my hands now. You get what you pay for and there’s no way I’d recommend buying a $50k Carbon mast, they are not all created equal and their quality varies dramatically as well as customer service, That being said, yes the Carbon rigs definitely made for a smoother ride and made a significant improvement in performance. $250k worth…now that’s subjective, but if cost isn’t an issue then it’s absolutely the way to go. The Portofino is going to be very heavy already so it’s probably a good idea to save some weight here. Regarding sails and in boom furling, I’m in the hell no camp. As a cruising couple you want to keep things as simple as possible. The boats you see running in boom furling usually have professional crew and lots of them. When stuff goes pear shaped it’s going to just be the two of you and having a sensor not reading the 87 degrees just right or the boom vang out of alignment is a disaster that’s not worth the risk. Spend the money on high quality sails from Doyle or North, or on a carbon mast from Hall or Marstrom. Going through final choices now on our cat as well. Good luck!

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks for the info Kirk! Have you sailed with a boom Furler as I have seen many cruising cats with couples and boom furlers. It is the difficultly reefing in high winds with just the two of us that we are trying to make easier.... The big question is "Will it be easier with boom furling or not?" Perhaps the answer is Yes , until it jams!

[@kirkb3473]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 yep, you are spot on with your reasoning, it’s easier until it isn’t and then it will be a big problem and potentially dangerous. All the professionals we’ve sailed with have said the same and strongly discouraged us from going this route and wouldn’t do it on their own boat. Plus you lose a bunch of sail area because the boom has to be raised to accommodate the vang. I understand the allure, but in our opinion it’s not the best for a cruising couple.

[@raibtube]

Yes, agree that not all carbon masts are equal. Was sailing on performance cats with Lorima carbon masts. They are > $100k. @barefootdoctorssailing8567 what brand is the mast and how are they constructed? Are they cured in an autoclave, woven or female molded and infused (like hulls)?

[@popsracer886]

Barefoot Doctors, I'm not sure if anyone covered this, so apologies if it was, I know about this from working in the aircraft industry; If you use an Aluminum mast rather than the Carbon mast, you would not have to worry about the Galvanic Corrosion possible from the Carbon/Aluminum combination. Carbon fiber can cause galvanic corrosion on aluminum. If the aluminum is anodized, this should prevent corrosion since there is a layer of oxide between the carbon fiber and any bare aluminum. Epoxy adhesive also can also act as a layer to prevent corrosion, but bonding and grounding for static electricity, stray currents and or lightning should be a high priority. Good Luck and I Hope this helps. I'm set on Aluminum for My future Cat, but I'm thinking of a Bi-Plane Wing Sail plan to avoid as many sails as possible and allow for a bit more automated sailing, since I will be sailing alone alot. Look Great and hope to see it when it's finished.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Pops! Yes we are aware of the corrosion risk with carbon and while that can be managed with care, the added risks of lightning, trauma has pushed us back to the AL mast.... Your boat sounds interesting with fixed wing sails - let us know what you are doing and how it will work and perform! That would be really interesting....

[@DarrenBainbridge]

As an engineer desiging my own boat. Things to member, Your are an Aluminum cruising boat, not a racing yatch. I would go with the longevity of aluminum mast and stanless rigging, you wont notice the weight saving in reality. You also get a lightening grounding advantage with the stainless rigging and aluminum hull. I would personally pick the boom fulling thought. It's tidy and has many reeffing points. You just need to learn how to use it.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Darren, good points....

[@georgesoswald5665]

When off grid carbon is very hard to repair I would go aluminum as we did with a Switch 51 for 15 years

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Yes that is a good point Georges!

[@DD-xx8wh]

whatever material is the most manageable by the owners, compatible with the boat and practical worldwide

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Very logical, DD! Thanks

[@jamesaron1967]

Unless there's an important reason I'm unaware of I would forget the boom furler. Maybe it exists but I haven't heard of a system that is 100% reliable. If you're going to be at the dock most of the time and only sailing for several days or a week at most maybe it wouldn't be an issue. For the long passages you're intending to make I'd save all that money and install a standard boom. Concerning the mast material, if you can fit it into your budget go for carbon. The lighter weight alone is worth it. You can probably spec a slightly taller mast in carbon compared to aluminum. When I look at options from yacht manufacturers, I often see the carbon mast option taller than the aluminum option. Some performance yacht companies will have a full carbon rig option where everything is made of carbon: mast, boom, longeron, rigging _and_ sails. You need not go that far but a carbon mast and boom would definitely be nice. One of the downsides is a lightning strike will probably obliterate the mast. It's one of the negatives and thought you should be made aware. Whatever you decide I'm sure it will be for the best to satisfy your requirements. I like how meticulous you are in making decisions for your Portofino 52. I think that's one of the reasons it will be an outstanding yacht when completed, and the fact the company is there with you every step of the way in fulfilling your wishes.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks James - yes it's a tough call....

[@gordondyer4587]

Carbon is massively stronger , but requires more maintenance. On my last yacht a 35’ racer cruiser, I replaced a broken alloy mast with a carbon one. I had to recut my main to suit the new stiffness. I cruised and raced hard for 6 years with it and wish I had one on my current 45 cruiser racer. I would rig it with composite standing rigging if I could afford it, or use Dyform wire. I am not a fan of rod rigging. I fitting a Leisure Furl boom 2 seasons ago, it took a while to get it sorted as there was a issue with the new mainsail. I love it now, as I currently sail in the Med and it’s not uncommon to adjust the size of the main every 30 minutes!!! But I would only recommend it to sailors who really understand the shape of the sail they are looking at. It is very sensitive to inattention when furling or raising the main. If I was just doing blue water, I would stick with slab reefing. But happy to do it with my Leisure furl.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Very useful experience to share Gordon- thanks very much!

[@rayb3117]

I aplogize as I know squat masts and rigging. But, I, have heard that carbon fibre if the way to go for racing and some sport sailing, but, there is a potential for damage from objects striking against the mast. Aluminum id also good for sport sailing or cruising. Less chance of damage when getting struck by objects striking the mast, As for furlors, I would reach out to Brian on Delos. he seems to have a very good grasp of all things sailing. Good luck with the decision and cheers

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Ray for those aspects which are significant downsides to Carbon. The Amels which Brian has are in mast furling which is suitable for monos but not cats and eliminates the ability to use full battens and square topped main.... I Need to hear from those that have been using boom furlers for some time, preferably cruising....

[@Skippernick1957]

Aluminium mast , easy to repair with inboom furling

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks for the tip, Nick! That was certainly our original plan but we are now exploring the carbon....

[@glynmatthews2156]

Sorry guys, I know nothing about masts and boom furlers, I consider you guys as my experts in this field. Looking forward to learning about the outcome though. Boat is looking great 👍🏻

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Awesome! Thank you, Glyn! Thanks for your ongoing support and interest.

[@ebutuoyotwen]

It seems like mast lightning strikes on a "bluewater" cruiser would be considered in this decision regarding the mast and rigging especially on an aluminum vessel. Money on such an expensive boat for standing rig seems a lower priority. Losing motor and sail in one event seems more worthy of discussion. And an aluminium mast seems more tried and trued way to prevent crew from being the highest point on a grounding plate. I say aluminium mast and Dyneema rigging seem safer if my boat was at Point Nemo sailing short handed :)

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks for the detailed comment and aluminium mast and dynamo. Rigging certainly seems to be the most sensible way to go.

[@guenthermichaels5303]

I like the KISS concept. Keep it simple St**d. No furling boom, cost and more complexity and more prone to failure. The carbon mast savings in weight aren't worth the price. Aluminum is proven. Also I thought you were proud of your eco friendly use of aluminum. Carbon fibre is not recyclable. Stay Green. Cheers from yyz

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Great point, Mike! We are leaning towards AL throughout as several factors are against carbon incl the resilience and easy repairs. We are enjoying the eco benefits of it too but have to explore all the options. The boom Furler is still in the air as the ability of Eli and I to reef fast and easily without leaving the steering position is something we are still struggling with...

[@JRTurgeon13]

From an old comment about carbon fiber spars. Carbon fiber has little or no tell tale signs when it is weakening or is about to break. Steel will have broken strands, rust or discoloration of the surface.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi JR, apparently every few years the cover can be taken off the carbon fibre shrouds and each strand looked at and replace any broken ones. That way the carbon rigging lasts as long as the boat but needs to be serviced to maintain integrity...

[@jimlofts5433]

Having absolutely no experience and wisdom in boom furlers rigging and mast - here is my valuable input just because its the internet and we have too - all good but prefer stainless rigging - the reason being how easily damaged is the carbon fibre rigging with a knock, scratch or impact - Also show Portofino the vlog from Distant Shores - Ask Us Anything! Building an Aluminum Sailboat - that shows a clever way to manufacture the fitout ?? and an estimated 6 month shorter time build

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Jim, we have seen many of their episodes but not that one... Will check it out!

[@user-zz7by5ud7d]

Good evening Barefoot Doctors, Having sail off shore on large yacht and experienced both Carbon and Ally rigging I would say Carbon less maintenance, and stiffer. I would contact Southern Spars in New Zealand they also supply a full package of mast, boom and rigging in carbon, they have also alot of experience in boom furling there background is both racing and very large sailing yachts. Personally in boom furling needs some very precise boom angles and constant tension on the halyard. I hope this helps.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks for the comment and great advice. We will look into it further.

[@juergenzenner4219]

Sailing La Vagabonde had in their video 392 an accident with the in boom furling….difficult decision…….

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi Juergen, thanks for your comment again. In that episode, my feeling was that it was their error that created the problem because they had never used one before. That sort of problem is not an event that I have seen ever before and their lack of knowledge about the process made it look like user error...

[@waltervanderboor]

We’re in process of designing/building a larger catamaran. We decided on a carbon mast but conventional rigging and a mast without spreaders and we considered in boom furling but didn’t see it worth euro 250k for an hydraulic In boom furling system. We currently have in-mast furling and see the benefits of unlimited reefs but not at all price levels, hence we’re going for 4 reefs in the main instead. We feel traditional sails have a better shape in our experience than furling booms allow. There’s no best system. Boom furling can work. Some sailing channels have reported disastrous results of inboom or in mast furling. Others swear it’s the best. Keep it simple is our motto. But with that said a standard square topped sail often gets stuck behind the lazy jack lines hence it’s also far from perfect. Hence we are hoping to have solved that issue with some adjustable lines pulling the jack lines towards the mast whilst hoisting. Hope this helps in the deciding process

[@jackwickman2403]

I often have to show a new person helming during full batten/lazy jack mainsail hoists how to steer head to wind to center the battens between the lazy jacks. Once they understand this we don't have any further issues hoisting. The lazy jacks don't need to connect to the masthead and outboard end of the boom. Moving them down and inboard reduces, but doesn't totally eliminate the batten snagging problem. Once the first 2 or 3 battens clear the lazy jacks we're good to hoist with no snagging.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Jack....

[@pbr-yt8zc]

For carbon on furling boom and mast and aramid on the rigging vs carbon and save some money.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Good idea - thanks very much!

[@claudiof.barbano5530]

My view (absolutely not technical, have not enough competence), but I would LOVE to have furling mainsale, well worth the extra cost. Mast in carbon or not, for me not needed, UNLESS it makes the furling much more safer to operate. 220kg more or less I don't think is a big deal in a cruising boat. Again that's my opinion without great knowledge and giving a hot, quick, answer

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks again Claudio - good advice and my gut feeling before ether carbon was raised as an option...

[@NJ-Cathie]

You might message Happy Together….i think they switched to a carbon mass.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Yes, Cathy I have emailed them and waiting for a reply.

[@gbsailing9436]

Hello there John and Eli. Another great video again this week. I admire your bravery seeking advice from the armchair sailors out there. Why was there designed such a large over hang to begin with? I understand you are looking at horizontal plates? Can the rear platform not have vertical plates, say 10cm apart across the area? This would still break up a waves energy, reduce the flat area being exposed to that energy and yet add strength to the structure. They could be shaped ( or drilled - holed to help baffle wave energy quite easily - to reduce surface area (which is probably not necessary in a vertical alignment), and would stop wave chop coming from abeam or rear quarters slamming up into the flat surface while still sufficiently wide enough apart to allow cleaning. Having seen a mast explode that was under severe compression and with what I have learn from Formula 1 (where shards of carbon fibre are sharp and light - meaning they travel easily), I would hate to be around a carbon mast if it were to explode under stress. In addition, mast like these are typically used on ultra expensive yachts owned by the rich and famous, who can easily afford to replace a mast if it is slightly damaged or suffering from any issues that may happen over time and use. Talking of cost, how much will it increase yearly insurance premiums? Then there is the issue of longevity in my mind. Aluminum is a tried, test and true (as the saying goes) material that is easily "fixed" or welded anywhere in the world as welders are fairly common. Carbon, not so much. I can't make a comment on the boom furler as I know nothing about them. Except to add to things to their discussion: Firstly: what type of sails are you getting and does their shape rely more heavily on batons? Secondly, with more complexity comes the greater chance of breakage. This is always the case with mechanical systems. If you going with carbon sails then I guess that batons wouldn't be required. Having read through some of the comments below, specifically I would draw your eyes to @kaydittrich7753, who appears to have extensive knowledge of carbon and its uses in industry. My final take on it would be to steer clear of carbon - it's for those ultra rich who can afford to travel sown that road. Azimut Yachts did an interesting thing with a VIP cabin a few years ago where the bed was hinged at the head end and could be swung together when needed. See any quick review of the Azimuth 62S for the idea in the forward VIP cabin. Great to see the boat coming together and that your ideas are being so well received by Raffale. Safe travels at this time of year! Fair 💨's and following 🌊's!

[@jackwickman2403]

Great bed idea. When in a V you get in and out in the center. When swung together you have a small walk space on each side like an island bed. Best of both worlds.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks again Garth! I think the overhang came about because of aesthetic reasons and the designers hull shape that cam first and the rest of the hull came later... Anyway sorted now! We are going to be looking into the insurance cover for carbon and Lithium and we are going for performance moulded sails so are trying to get the benefits of speed if it can be done easily. Thanks also of rthe info about the V berth rotating - interesting. Keep well. Regards, John and Eli

[@gbsailing9436]

All good. I'll check out the App soon. @@barefootdoctorssailing8567

[@neilmathias7249]

Furlcraft makes a carbon mandrel boom furler that works on an aluminum mast. I wouldn’t go all carbon just to get the furler.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Neil - good points!

[@user-ku9wf3si5c]

Just to mention carbon fibre Mast/Booms do not break they explode ! I would keep it simple its not a racing yacht

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks for your point of view and advice. Important facts.

[@MrJerobona]

With the little experience I have, I would do aluminum mast and boom, and invest in a proper boom furler, I would go for boom furler for 2 reasons: easier to lower your sail in emergency, and weight of sail lower to center of gravity. The rigging is done more and more in dyneema lines, strong and light, I have no experience on that, but I would considerer it for my own build!

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Jero!

[@seawench555]

Hi it's Me, ok I don't need to explain why I'm choosing these materials as u already know there benefits. Aluminium Mast, Aluminium boom Furling, Stainless steel Rigging. John, I love u but you've got to loose the man piggy tail, it's just not U, Just cut ur hair enough so it's not in ur eyes. It's a shame the boys won't share a bed, I mean it's family, but Eli I like the way u think Women, again u have thought of a way to sort the issue. Hi to the Barefoot Crew, glad u had a nice evening, I'll be there next time.🤣 I'm so enjoying this adventure, and can't thank u both enough for sharing and including us all in this wonderful exciting time. 🤗🇦🇺🌊

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks again Karlene for your comments and kind words. Good to have you along!

[@patrickabas1112]

i would always go for a boom furler as it is easy to repair/replace/access. Anything in the mast is always a problem to reach and taking off the mast takes a lot of work/time/effort/money. Boom you can take off with to adult men. Always go for carbon but I cannot decide on your wallet.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Patrick, wise words and useful!

[@LiFE1688]

I would recommend saving the money and get an aluminium mast, forget about carbon fiber. Carbon Fiber on aluminium can cause corrosion because it happily conducts electricity. Carbon Fiber mast will snap and break when it ages, with aluminium you can still see it bend.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Good points, thanks LIFE!

[@robthompson7174]

Am agnostic on boom furling but am firm believer in KISS principle for bluewater cruising, so you better have workable reefing plan if the furler stuffs up, and not have loose main flapping around in a big blow. We decided to have Allyacht Spars single line reefing system on reef 1, and simple slab reefing on 2 & 3. Reefing lines all dyneema with technora chafe covers in wear spots. Aluminium mast is a no brainer for reason of lightning. Are you aware your carbon mast will need to be replaced if there is a strike just near your boat, not even hitting it? The carbon is weakened by the induced current caused by nearby strikes, and would need expert diagnosis (Xray scan?) to determine if it has been damaged. Where you going to get that done in third world cruising grounds??? You would negate the advantage of aluminium hulls re lightning by going carbon. Why not go alloy mast with dyneema rigging?

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Rob, all the dilemmas we have been struggling with!!!

[@billycox1795]

I have been watching your videos for a while now and you keep stressing that your new boat is recyclable. If you put a carbon fiber mast on the boat, then your boat will not 100% recyclable. I also understand that weight is one of the most important things that hurts the way the boat will perform in the water and the amount of fuel that will be used when you need to motor. So, the best choice is what fits your budget and how you want the boat to perform.

[@gbsailing9436]

Plus Carbon burns !

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Billy! Yes you are right and carbon is not recyclable and does burn... Of curse int eh building, there are going to be many internal fit out stuff that is also not recyclable but at lease we are much more advanced with all of the hull being ozone friendly. We started emphasising the recycling issue because we see so many channels talking about hybrid "green" systems that use Kubota engines (HH44 hybrid marine) that are so heavy on emissions, they are not allowed to be built in the EU and they don;t meet the international ships standards. We are still undecided on the mast but are trying to get the benefits and risks of each to make the decision.

[@michelrenaud9400]

I'm no sailer but Schaefer inboom furling system would be the one to look for. Check out the track on the mast.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Michel

[@arnfinnsaetra1602]

With boom furling, you also get the weight of the sail lower, which makes the boat more stable

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Good point Arn.

[@Cptnbond]

Stability is not an issue for a multi-hull. Rather the oppoite, if you don't reduce sail in time at a blow your mast may come down.

[@F3DD1]

For me. Mast aluminium and furling boom. Bertrand le capitaine f3dd /mm

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Bertrand!

[@jorgenlundberg2876]

I whod for a aluminium mast and syntetic rigging. Most bang for the buck

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Jorgen, the synthetic rigging yo are referring to I presume is Aramid / dyneema? We are thinking that is a good alternative to carbon and much cheaper - an extra $40K for carbon rigging in a cruising boat (all be it fast) seems out of balance...

[@johnmajewski1065]

Everything on a boat is a compromise . I can share the rigging savings l made from wire to Dyneema for my monohull 15 meter weight savings 240 kilograms for 30 kilos of rigging as l have a Profurl forestay is wire. Also the safety lines are dyneema cost 2021 AUD 12000 cheaper than wire because there is less manual work and swagging NZ make rigging screws if you have an aluminium mast in my case l had too have 3 sets of spreader ends cut off and new ones weld on to suit my new rigging. 100% l will never have wire rigging again! Weight is everything if you can afford it get a carbon mast and boom. It you rigging is going to be in dyneema don’t hire a wire rigger only contract a dyneema expert rigger. Dyneema weight is nothing you can carry spare rigging as backup…I don’t have any experience with boom reefing my advice is to sail on a boat who has one installed. Before you buy! Personally l have nothing to give you ether way as a good or bad solution? But personally l would like less complicated setup slab reefing is simple fast to reef when it’s urgent for sure will not jam - far less weight easier to remove main for replacement or repairs . Question do you know if a mainsail needs to be made especially for a a boom roller furling system if so how much more will it cost? Best you talk and sailing to someone who is experienced . Good luck with your selections. SV Skoiern IV John

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks for all that info John. Interesting facts about the cheaper safety lines in dyneema! WRT the mainsail construction - no difference in cost with slab or boom roller.... I must say that we have always used slab system but when we are short handed (Eli and I only) when it is rough and reefing lines jam (twists or catching on things) , it is a pain and probably the one time that things are risky. Still we will have to make the call

[@johnmajewski1065]

Understand the reasons, I'm not sure with a roller reefing if you can drop the main quickly in a squall if need be or do you need to roll reef it? this could be too slow? Nevertheless, your boat and great lifetime undertaking effort are showing great promise in a wonderful boat of both of your visons @@barefootdoctorssailing8567

[@lyfandeth]

IIRC when a carbon fiber mast takes a lightning strike, it is condemned and must be replaced. So now you've got to have a new one-off carbon fibre mast made up and the boat useless until those kind of pricey repairs can be made. Doesn't sound like a good idea.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks and good points!

[@kirkb3473]

This simply is not true, 99% of masts can be repaired.

[@F3DD1]

If you do competition carbon mast and sail normal good but if you do around the world with 2 people only aluminium mast and furling boom for catamaran. Bertrand le capitaine f3dd

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Bertrand!

[@constantinealexandrakis]

Based on what I've read in multiple forums, the biggest benefit of a carbon mast seems to be that it reduces weight high up, which is a safety issue, not just performance. However, i also read that carbon and aluminium touching induces galvanic corrosion similar to when aluminium touches another metal. So I'm not sure how they safeguard for that in an aluminum boat.

[@jamesaron1967]

That's a good question. I haven't heard of a carbon mast on an aluminum boat. There are relatively few aluminum boats out there compared to boats made from other materials. I'm sure it can be done with proper isolation of the two materials but don't know how it would be accomplished.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi Constantine, yes the carbon mast has to be insulated from the AL at any point of contact as the two will corrode each other. That is "easily" done so we have the weight versus lightning strike damage of carbon....

[@garenkarapetian709]

I'd say go with an aluminium mast - that way you can make more cans of coke. Since you've chosen a Portofino (I'd assume it's a very expensive cat, $1M+), which is not exactly a performer (10.5 ton; and those fat hulls speak volumes about its future performance), I can't think of a reason why you'd even consider spending an extra $50K on a carbon mast just to save some 100kg. Plus aluminium masts are easier to service, especially in remote locations. I've also heard that carbon masts bump up the insurance costs, so that's another factor to take into account. If you want to save 100kg and more, go with dynema rigging. Boom furler would be nice if you have a relatively light and small boat, AND if you can find a manufacturer that makes an HONEST and SIMPLE product (and easily repairable). Keep it simple, and always think of points of failure. For instance I just love the simplicity of hand-cranked boom-rollers on Corsair trimarans, but they can afford it only because the whole vessel weighs around 1.6t. I wouldn't pay $50K, or even $30K for a boom furling system - total rip off! My philosophy on sailing is a bit different: keep it light and minimalist, keep it as simple and reliable as you can

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Garen for al the good advice and info - absolutely agree to keep things simple and reliable and we will now go for the AL mast and SS rigging. However on the performance of the boat, that is determined by the weight, hull shape and sails and check out the episode on the performance polars which show the boat doing wind speed in many windspeed and frequent angles sailing over 12 knots... Here is the performance video link - interesting stuff and if we even get to 80% of this performance, it will be amazing!kzbin.info/www/bejne/poTLm2qZqqyamZI

[@garenkarapetian709]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Thanks for the reply. I’m sure you Portofino will be an awesome piece of kit. Designed by an Italian (with a real itAAlian AAccent), a cat built with aluminium- its bound to be a great cat. Beats any Leopard or Sunreef any day of the week.

[@claudiof.barbano5530]

A minor issue, don't like that there is no separation from the ladder that bring to the helm, to the small day bed

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi Claudio, not sure what you are referring to. There are steps from the steering position to the aft cockpit, not a ladder and the day bed is now double so not small. Perhaps you are seeing an old photo / render but I can't see in the video where you saw this...

[@claudiof.barbano5530]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 yes, steps, sorry, English is not my language. If something falls from the steering position (cigarette ashes, spill from a beverage, and so on) it goes on the head of whom is laying down on the day bed

[@SailingKokoro]

Dear Ellie and John, Our 46' new St. Francis built cruising cat will have an aluminum mask and aluminum boom furling with SS standing rigging. Cost is a factor but we also did consider all those factors you are currently evaluating. We are comfortable with our choices. SV Kokoro

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

That's good to know, Guys - thanks very much for the reassurance!

[@SailingKokoro]

Sparcraft/furlcraft who is building our rig states that a boomfurler with a P sail measurement of 16 meters or greater would be fabricated in Carbon and smaller can be made in aluminum. Out P measurement is 17M so I am now inquiring for our specific build to be launched summer 2024. @@barefootdoctorssailing8567

[@Kingsoly]

I would do the carbon mast and a non furling boom in carbon - just one of the carbon wing type main holding things - like a solid stack pack -

[@jamesaron1967]

Yep, my advice exactly.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks for your advice - we're getting almost every variation here but this one is popular, esp with avoiding the boom Furler.

[@alanpiper9614]

Another great episode, thanks. As regards to the mast and rigging, I think that it depends on what you want from the boat. Aluminium and carbon each have their benefits and drawbacks. From my perspective, I always look at the KISS principle for general use and ease of use. The weight saving by going carbon is roughly equal to 2 people, is this worth the extra $ and the possible issues if there are problems encountered in remote locations? For me I’d say no, as it isn’t a race cat, but a home on the water. Reliability and ease of repair would be my focus. Also what would be the actual performance benefits of going carbon? Would it be a gain of 1 to 2 knots in TWS of 10knots or less? I doubt it. Also aluminium is recyclable whereas carbon isn’t, so better for the environment, the aluminium hull is great in this aspect along with all the other benefits. I really look forward to the progress updates on this exceptional build and your attention to detail. Many are learning a lot as a result and I dare say are looking to do the same as you guys and go for a custom aluminium build. Stay safe guys and keep smiling. Cheers

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Alan, yes the speed benefit of carbon mast would only be 1/2 knot perhaps and as you say AL is more stable and recyclable...

[@greglight3745]

Thought I had heard that a carbon mast may have insurance challenges. Maybe that’s changed.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi Greg, I have not heard that but we will need to look into it - just like Lithium...

[@greglight3745]

ABYC has addressed lithium with a series of guidelines. Battleborn should be a good resource.

[@IvanMidwing]

Full aluminium mast with furling boom! (My choice) Think the extra cost for full carbon mast is ridiculously high and also more prone to lightning strikes..... Furler boom keeps CG low. The extension on the stern is very good and should preferably hab the "canoe" shape... Also I would have threaten the aluminum with zinchromate primers as they do on aircrafts before any isolation! Good luck!!!

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Ivan for sharing your knowledge! LIgthning is certainly another aspect we are looking into very closely but there seem to be different views on the level of that risk, so I am trying to find an biased and accurate risk level...

[@IvanMidwing]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 yes, Had a friend who went fishing with a graphite rod during thunder and he will never do that again....(still alive though) Carbon seems to be more prone to hits ... The airplanes use "static wicks" to help disperse lightning strikes and if a few of them carbon wicks are missing then the airplane is not airworthy.... I would definitely chose regular aluminium mast ;) Wish I could afford the PF52 also ;) Looks amazing!!

[@47714]

I would have no clue which one to pick. I would pick one that is least to attract lightning.

[@tip0019]

Good point on the lightning. That means an Aluminium grounded mast should be prefered with a proper copper lightning pinnacle on top. Alternatively a Carbon mast needs a complete copper rod all the way to the ground. They are going to sail mainly in the tropics I believe so the lightning issue is important in any decision 👍

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi and thanks for the comment because lightning is a very important issue for us. We are still looking into the relative risks of carbon vs AL and the lightning protection.

[@jankokman1791]

hey go for an aluminum mast and a cool roller boom where it looks like a plane with wings where you can go up in it and work and can also collect water ;) and then try with Dynama Rope instead of sreel wires ... and because of the aluminum mast and boom you can always make a hole. fix it. can sit a few steps up to the first spreader and two on the last 1.5 m ..... and inside the cat must have a radius like an aluminum box beer, on all edges;) have a good wind from viking 

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Interesting ideas Jan - never thought of using the boom to collect water but such a good idea!

[@Erica_Brenda]

If I am not mistaken, I like carbon Fiber because it is also less likely that you can be hit by lightening. My thought it, it is not metal, so it is not a lightening rod in the middle of the ocean.

[@jamesdwyer3238]

Carbon is an excellent electrical conductor too!

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi Erica, I don;t believe that is true and some say that the ionic rreaction with carbon masts make them get hit more often (but I have not been able to confirm or refute that yet). Definitely not less likely though and the mast is destroyed if hit or a near hit happens...

[@Erica_Brenda]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 DARN! I was hoping that would be a solution.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

KEEP UP THE CREATIVE THINKING!!!

[@warrenpowell6570]

Another awesome episode! Thanks again 😊

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Our pleasure, Warren! Glad you liked it!

[@wiredgorilla]

Alu mast with boom furling

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Wired! Another vote for AL!!!

[@wiredgorilla]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 cheers big ears 😄

[@stephenmurray9850]

I think the real question on your mast dilemma is how deep are your pockets? How fast do you want the cat to sail? If these match up go with the carbon mast/rigging. If you are starting to think about costs then go with the aluminum . I have heard a bit about in boom furling V slab reefing .. I think for simplicity slab reefing is the way to go , yes there are more lines and a bit more work but for speed of the boat , sail makers can make a better cut of sail for more power and higher speed for the cat. Good luck with your choice , Thanks for the video.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Stephen for your assistance and good points. While it is not the money (although I don't want to spend money unless it gives us benefit), it is the reliability and ease of use that are highest for us. We have used slab reefing all our lives and it does take work, being up at the mast to free up lines and confirm the correct setting etc and we would like to avoid that - hence our desire for boom furling.... We will share our deliberations in the future too.

[@stephenmurray9850]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Thanks for the reply. I always thought inboom furling was the way to go rather than inMast furling. Gives you better and bigger sail area. My mates first yacht had the boom furling , the only time it was a pain was when we sailed up to the mooring with the mainsail up and had to furl the sail after. . something to think about if you sail off and on a mooring (my mate never used his motor)

[@davidking1501]

furling systems for the boom or the mast can help sailing when short staffed but will limit the types of materials used and shapes (slats) of sails you can use. Sorry but it is a trade-off of the design. also have you considered for the rear of the hull as taper (almost a triangle) to a smaller area to reduce the s[ap by means of more defection and will help in the drag co-efficient when underway

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi David, thanks for those points and we have spoken to the sail makers who claim that the sail will be just as good either way. The flat stern is to assist the boat achieving a plane and rising up out of the water so this would be lost with the tapered stern.

[@clivestainlesssteelwomble7665]

Keep it all Al...pick a taper mast Its easier and cheaper.. ... Save wt elsewhere.... besides within the next few years it might be replaced with wood ....🤔 Modified softwoods being produced under the MettelWood name stronger than steel and half the density of Al and a fraction of the price plush the whole energy and carbon balance issue. Carbon masts need protection from UV.. Theres Carbon fiber replacements been deployed on racing vessels and most big Euro builders are combining flax and basalt to produce none reactive inert composites that are lighter and as strong as carbon but impervious to UV .

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Clive - good points and new things to think about too... You just make our decisions harder!

[@clivestainlesssteelwomble7665]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 I forgot the other way of saving wt up top and saving money ...use pre stretched Dynema standing Rigging.. 🤔 Its easier to repair and replace off the beaten track and as long as its protected in the key areas stronger than steel at a fraction of the cost and wt. Though if its not pre stretched it will need a fair bit of re tensioning ... so allow for more adjustment length than with Steel. Hanneka of Wharram cats did it on her iconic 63 ft Gia wingsail gaff rigged ketch vessel she estimated it weighed less than ten percent of the old rig and she could repair it from a spare drum of 10mm stowed in a locker almost anywhere. Your boat your choice ... but first time i saw it done was in and by Australian riggers on a large monohull.

[@julesmoto9022]

I would be very wary of a design that had a feature which you can pick holes in and that they impliedly agree can be improved by your suggestion.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

The designer said that it would not make any difference and my concern about slapping was not confirmed in the wave analysis. So there is no difference from the architectural perspective but I preferred to not have that large overhang...

[@lvdriver4]

My first question would e what is the longevity of both materials? If one needs to be replaced after a short time the one that the longest is the best

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi LV, the carbon rigging has a lifespan of the the boat but it needs to be serviced every few years to replace any broken strands but it does not need to be replaced fully like SS. The AL mast and carbon are both long term unless damage occurs with carbon being more sensitive to point impact than AL...

[@steinjohansen3142]

The YT channel "Cat Greatcircle" have had several cats with aluminium masts, currently they sail around the world in a cat with carbon mast. They should be the right one to ask. ;-)

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Good point Stein, we wil ltry.

[@doughall7435]

I have no opinion on which mast you should buy, and I read a lot of good opinions. My only statement is to be careful when choosing an item that is race related, racing designs are not always items built for longevity, they are built for performance and weight savings. Many race related items are changed or, worked on often, ie..tires and engines, money aside, If it were me, I want longevity and durability.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi Doug, thanks very much for your comment and we absolutely agree with the importance of longevity over a knot or two of speed...

[@jamesaron1967]

You're correct, generally speaking. The thing is that cruising specifications for carbon components are not the same as those which are speced for racing boats. You won't find an IMOCA 60 carbon mast and boom for example on any commercial cruising sailboat. Manufacturers design and specify components intended for non-racing applications that have very different tolerances engineered for them. The same for rigging and sails. Perhaps there are exceptions like the ORC model line, but those cats _are_ race boats thinly disguised as cruisers, and therefore not intended for the same market niche or the same owner profile.

[@fountainvalley100]

I think I would prefer an aluminum mast. I know an aluminum mast can survive a lightening strike. I’m not sure what a carbon fiber mast would look like. I’m thinking it would be split wide open like a tree after a lightning strike. I would get a hold of the UL and NFPA documents related to lightning protection and try to implement them on your boat.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

We certainly did have concerns about lightning risk with carbon and that is probably the biggest reason to go with AL. We still have to determine how much higher those risks are with carbon so have more investigation to do...

[@mikeferguson2828]

There is a Catana 47 with a carbon mast that was struck by lightening a month ago near Singapore. He managed to sail to Singapore. All electronics are gone as well as issues with starter motors, alternators on the engines etc but the mast is fine

[@fountainvalley100]

@@mikeferguson2828 the electronics wiring in the mast provided the down conductor saving the mast.

[@boatman909]

Boom furling. See La Vagabond’s comment on poor long term reliability of boom furling and to a lesser extent in-mast furling for high performance yachts. To much to go wrong just when you REALLY need to get the sail down. A good stack pack and roller bearing mast track is the best investment.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Boatman. Unfortunately that episode with the Boom furling on SLV that they managed to make fall apart, was more likely to be their lack of experience with boom furlers that lead to the problem as that is not a "normal" problem with boom furlers! However, we are still concerned about the practicalities and reliability...

[@jackjacksin55]

Contact your insurance company on cost of carbon fibre mast.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Jack - we will and wrt lithium....

[@Cptnbond]

First, you must ask if your fundamental concern is valid today or based on old perceptions of the mastfurling system. The weight gain with a carbon mast is ridiculous for a boat that displaces 10 500 kg. The weight up the mast is less critical. Your boat is not a mono hull, with the catamaran having enormous stability due to the two hulls. The boom furler locks the bottom edge of the sail in the system, whereas today, the foot is not attached to the boom except at the very end for modern sailboats. A modern in-mast (aluminum) furler, e.g., Selden, is computer-controlled, preventing jamming. Do some research since mistakes based on guesses can be costly. Cheers.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Yes I agree with the weight being less significant on a medium weight AL boat. I understand that mast furlers are great for monos and used extensively therefore reliable, I presume. However cats sails perform better with a large roach, square topped main and full length battens. This make boom furlers more functional for that sort of main - or do you think I am still missing something?

[@billhanna8838]

The Kiwi Boomfurler is tried & true , The rigging in exzotics is great for top end racers the same goes for sail material , I personally dont believe the costs out way the benefits for long time cruisers = KISS is still the best way to go &B the wight aloft wont make a hell of a lot of difference in a boat of your size , Sail cut & shape will .

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Bill, good points. So your advice is that the Kiwi Boomfurler is worth the money for long term cruisers? Absolutely agree that the sail cut and shape are more important than the mast....

[@williammolley6684]

Will your boat have bow thrusters on it … to help make it more maneuverable for you guys ?

[@williammolley6684]

It would be a pleasure to dock with bow and stern thrusters

[@williammolley6684]

Giving you complete control of your Cat

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi William, yes indeed we are! We are having jet thrusters on the bows ($15000) which are really effective without the maintenance issues of the ordinary thrusters. For the stern we will just put the wheel hard over and forward blasts with engine to shunt stern across.

[@SVThatway]

regarding carbon or aluminum, I have a question for you to consider. since carbon is so strong, would the spreaders on carbon mast be swept less aft?

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi Thatway Crew, Interesting question! I would not think so because the forward forces are caused by the wind on the sails and need to be balanced out and all the force still goes through the shrouds to the hulls so shallow sweep back would increase the force immensely on those attachments... However I will need to ask the carbon mast makers to get a definite confirmation as perhaps on an AL carbon rigging the extra forces can be coped with.

[@jackwickman2403]

I don't like boom roller furling/reefing. My main objection to it is that you have no outhaul or cunningham when reefed. This inability to tune sail shape in high winds is not a good thing. Even is you can achieve the ideal 89 degree boom angle during the roll, the reefed sail shape usually has too much draft and can't be flattened after reefing. I've seen crews with roller reefing booms laying strips of foam rubber along the boom and rolling them into the sail in an attempt to control sail shape. You could have clews with eyes built into your sail like a standard slab reefing main and then have a single outhaul and a single cunningham with hooks that can be inserted after you roll down the sail to one of the reefed positions. Then you could control the sail shape. Your coach roof design would have to allow you to access the outboard end of the boom without falling overboard. Full battened mainsails with lazy jacks keep the loose lower portion of a reefed mail under control even without lashing the loose sail to the boom. If you worry about the loose sail, adding extra battens half way between the reef points will keep everything inside the lazy jacks with only a slight weight penalty. Much lighter than a roller boom. In high winds you will want to flatten your reefed mainsail and the inability to do this with a roller boom is a deal breaker for me. Save your money. Full battens with a Battcar type mast track system and lazy jacks is the way to go. Yes, the slack second and third reef point outhauls flailing around when you go to the first reef can tangle, but a quick pull on them when lowering the main can avoid this. Single line reefing is not as good. It's better to have separate luff and foot tension controls. A single cunningham with a hook with multiple permanently installed outhauls can reduce rope count. Going to the mast to set the cunningham hook into the next reefing clew/cringle is a minor hassle. A mast track with multiple locking positions like the Karver system looks very desirable to me, but I haven't actually used one yet. The roller boom's inability to flatten the main when reefed in high winds plus its absurd price make it a poor choice. Don't do it.

[@jackwickman2403]

Typo: Line 2 Even is should be Even if. Sorry

[@jackwickman2403]

87 not 89 degrees

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Jack, yes there are two very distinct sides to this decision! Thanks for all the great advice and the detail about the poor shape with the boom furler in high winds - a significant issue that we will need to discuss with the sail makers.

[@jackwickman2403]

No outhaul is a serious shortcoming.@@barefootdoctorssailing8567

[@lincolnlincoln27]

My Vote: Aluminum mast with carbonFib rigging(weight savings you mentioned do not seem that substatiaal per your intro), "ware & tear wise" aluminum mast more fixable in 3rd world,,,/// i do not like boom furling system (do not think it is that carefree..!).. How about Aerofoil shaped mast with trailing edge short "arms" top & bottom with heavy duty roller furling systen(same as head sail furling) streched vertically, and substantial "bulletprooof" bearings and harware to operate. being external to mast will still be aerodynamic but no internal JAMMING risk. (BTW Jeff Bezo 3 masted yacht use mast furling....you might want track down his sail plan designer and pick his brain.///// stern flat spots: just weld curved tapered plate(on a mono hull this called a "counter" except wouls have 2, the curved shap dissipates the "pounding" forces 88888 Nice Hair style : can't wait til ypu braid & tar it!!!!

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Lincoln! Useful info that we will check up and thanks for the hair advice!

[@richardcelata2812]

I'm a mechanical engineer, what are the problems everyone encounters in the boom furler?

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi Richard, when looking at the online info about them, there is a lot of back stuff saying that they are very fickle, difficult to get the boom into the right position and you always have to go right up into the wind to do the drop.... Having not had one ourselves, I don;t know if those are from ignorance, poor quality furlers or inherent Furler limitations...

[@geofferyrobertson6608]

with safety these days they need to have a re-think on their decking on their Scaffolding ...... ha , ha

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

:))

[@chrisstephen4563]

Man bun 😂

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

:) Hope you liked it, Chris!

[@geofferyrobertson6608]

expensive , $50,000 for a boom furler although , I would say carbon fibre mast and furler and rigging , big saving on weight , Question ... are you going to be off grid totally

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi Geoffrery, yes we will be off the grid for extended periods and will eventually sail back to Australia.

[@ahminmabed5166]

All boats slap. That's gonna slap. My alloy catamaran slapped louder than my glass trimaran. Metal boats also split heads open so don't bang your head. Boom furler???????????? They all foul up. Look at Ningyo (Great Circle) to see how bad a sail can tangle. They had to cut the sail off. Also....why aren't boom furlers the norm??? Trust your gut. There's a reason you are concerned. It's because you're probably right

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Ahmin, thanks for the advice and good points!

[@ahminmabed5166]

@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Thank you for the videos

[@yirmiahumitchell1818]

a carbon mask would be better

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks for that angle - it certainly has several advantages (weight, smoother ride) and looks good but the counter argument is lighting damage, cost, difficultly repairing in remote parts of the world... Quite a dilemma so thank of your vote on the YES side!

[@ulrichhaepp2657]

I would never, never, never recommend a carbon mast , boom or hull. Carbo has by physics a very limited life span i would say guarantied stability. And more over unpredictable and unintelligible stability. There is no method to evaluate state of stability or degredation. And that stability is only good against traction and not against compression at all. Bad for a mast!!! Even if i had the money, to remove and renew al carbon parts after 5 years or earlier, i would have no trust in it even in early times. Things ca happen on first usage. Seen multiple times on round the world races, which are constructed to highest performance stability grades. Remember the last Vendee Globe or the Titan submergible. But i would possible opt for boom furling. In any case over in mast furling. Still comparing different in boom furling systems. And still struggling , that no one till today had thought of the need to slightly off set it to the goose neck axis. The roll off- parts still roll off parallaxed to the on mast sliding axis, which i do not like, because the more you reefed, the more it is off line, and that is namely, when the rigg has the most stress. But it would be easy, to put an electric engine without the need for any gear right in the middle of the furling axis. No one has done it since today. Why? Or the siding track had to be somehow bendable or swingable to the side according to the off set of the unfurling sail , may be for the first 2 feet or something. So there are some points to think about, Inspite of that, infurling in the mast can get stuck, and infurling only happens, when the the stress rises anyways, the wind increases, and fatality is becomes closer.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Ulrich - you present a very powerful argument!

[@ulrichhaepp2657]

thx, good luck; i thought, you did`nt a second catastrophe@@barefootdoctorssailing8567

[@user-df5zq9up3t]

There is no way would i have an in boom furling system. Refer to la vagabond video at what can easly go wrong. Akso there is a video called "2sailors died brcauce of this rope. Every body should watch this video who has a sailing vessel

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks DF for the comment and we saw that episode. Unfortunately the guys did not seem to know how to operate the boom Furler and used properly, they do not break. We have been seeing boom furlers on huge yachts of 100 foot plus and they work without break and jamming....

[@seppokopsala2969]

I cannot believe you will get a quality carbon mast for USD 50k. On your size boat the quality carbon mast should be way over 100k (at least). Is it worth it.. for ORC 50 type of boat, probably yes. For your aluminum cruising catamaran.. probably not. I think you would not notice any difference in performance or how boat feels. Regarding inboom furler.. definitely not for cruising. That thing will fail you one day in bad place.

[@seppokopsala2969]

Check out this good discussion regarding this topic on quite comparable boat kzbin.info/www/bejne/a4W1f6OIlrpgsK8si=Zysok32OmsU5PnK4

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks for the info Seppo. The price is the mast from the factory and not delivered and fitted and those costs will add up, I presume.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Great, I will check that out!

[@winkwink2u]

Aluminum is my choice. Lightening vs Carbon is just one more risk that causes anxiety. Easier to address Alum issues when abroad. In-Boom Furler on a Cat & if something goes wrong it will still drop, good on fully battened issues, reefing, & easier & safer to handle problems overall & hand-crank option is righteous. If something happens & one gets hurt & its just you two, then there is only one left & if that one is Ellie i want only what is absolutely safest & easiest & most possible for her to handle... while she tends to John's wounds. Carbon is fashionable but too dang expensive, small dings damage, it snaps, needs ultra-sound to detect damage & what are chances of it increasing in price for repair or replacement & the time out of your lives to get it done? Lightening alone is too threatening even if it doesn't hit the mast but is too close & you won't know it. Is grounding included in install price? Alum has a much wider use, repairs & issues are much more familiar. Lightening alone makes my decision. What started the questioning dilemma? Was it Carbon & its costs came into the picture? If you take out Carbon option all together, does this simplify your answers & on other issues as well? So pretend Carbon isn't an option & see how your mind feels about it. Does it release a larger burden? My fave: Alum & In-Boom Furler on a Cat.

[@jackwickman2403]

I sailed a roller boom rig . With hand crank it took over 10 minutes to raise or furl the main.

[@winkwink2u]

@@jackwickman2403 >> Sooooo true! But, hey 10 minutes is pretty dang good. The Crank as a 2nd option should all else fail. Its like my RV electronics, push button apps, mood lights, heated & massage recliner theater seats, portable induction cooktops, outdoor tv i never use but its there, all automatic & god-like until..! Give me a toggle switch & i can pull the dang shades down myself. I do appreciate the wind-sensor awnings & backup cameras however. Somehow it starts to feel unmanly. Men need problems. Show off for the ladies. Nothing like a good sea trial Crank. Earn extra pancakes & toasts to Poseidon, Palaemon, Leucothea, Brizo & Cymopoleia.

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Thanks Wink Wink - great summary and very close to my gut feeling. And don't they say that you should go with your gut? And yes, we were going with AL and looking at boom furling that led to carbon options.... Thanks for the sensible approach!

[@BoulderMTBR]

Can you use the system on the HH catamarans?

[@barefootdoctorssailing8567]

Hi Boulder, thanks for the good question! Ironically the diesel engine those hybrids use are the worst for air pollution and they are so bad that they are not allowed to be used in the EU as they do not meet the standards for emissions! They reach L2 emissions (Below EU standards, I understand) and the Yanmars reach L4 which is 4 times less toxic fumes (from 8 to 1 or 2 units).... So we are looking for other alternatives for hybrid options with our planned Yanmar engines!