SA80 History: L22A2 and Experimental L85 Carbines

Armament Research Services (ARES) is a specialist technical intelligence consultancy, offering expertise and analysis to a range of government and non-government entities in the arms and munitions field. For detailed photos of the guns in this video, don't miss the ARES companion blog post:
armamentresearch.com/british-e...
One of the original design intentions of the SA80 project was to replace the infantry rifle and the submachine gun with a single weapon that could fulfill both roles - hence the choice of a bullpup configuration. This would, theoretically, allow rifle ballistics and also SMG handling and maneuverability. As with most bullpup projects, however, this plan did not last. It quickly became clear that a shortened version of the L85 rifle could be made, which would be more suitable for troops who would previously have been issued submachine guns - notably aircraft and armored vehicle crews.
Today we take a look at a couple early prototypes of these carbines which did not go into production. We also examine an L22A2 carbine, which did become standard issue in 2003 for some units. This carbine includes all of the H&K A2 pattern upgrades, and was given the A2 designation despite there never being an adopted L22A1.
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[@tenaciousdnut]

"2 inches can make a difference" Ian McCollum - 2017

[@hodegetisch]

or in an apache helicopter ;)

[@charleswatson2088]

tenaciousdnut especially when you're trying to cram it into an apache.

[@QuantumOfInfinity]

I lost it there :D

[@DrSid42]

The videos were up and kinda hidden for some time. But people found out.

[@balazstorok9265]

TheTeeWorldsfreak it's an inside job :D

[@rubenskiii]

Can we just admire how great these look? They look futuristic and utelitarian but with a certain elegance.

[@simonbarcode4696]

Pity they were all bloody useless.

[@atinofspam3433]

a slightly altered form of the L85A1 was used in the film Akira (1988) to arm soldiers because at the time it looked futuristic, especially with the SUSAT, and they needed something futuristic and new.

[@babalonkie]

@@atinofspam3433 and a whole rack of new made L85's were in the film Aliens (Set in the Future) as one of their other available "future" weapons to the standard issue Pulse Rifle... a little fact that only hardcore Aliens fans know... yet everyone who has watched the film would of seen without realising. The L85 was the influence to the design of the Pulse Rifle.

[@thegit8698]

good job that place isn't called Armament Research Services England

[@Halinspark]

Jas Ward It should be

[@thegit8698]

Halinspark yes as I'm a Welshman it definitely should

[@alanfender123]

or Armament Research North Uganga Section

[@Lambotino]

Or arse for short

[@readman010]

Much why nobody in Tiverton has started a company called Tiverton Innovative Technology Services

[@ro32643]

Day 167: They still haven't realized I'm a Groza.

[@JS-311]

Put an obnoxious suppressor on L22A2 and it looks even more like a Groza-4

[@ro32643]

Notorious Incognito Perfect to cheeki breeki your way to the Zone.

[@JohnDoe-nf7up]

@@unnamed_boi just drop in a 300blk barrel.

[@JohnDoe-nf7up]

@@unnamed_boi then make custom bolt and barrel.

[@Sheridan2LT]

Except Groza came out 10 years after. Troll.

[@AtheistOrphan]

Thanks Ian for acknowledging our British pronunciation of 'carbine' at the top of the video.🇬🇧

[@nicorudoll4217]

Atheist Orphan because it is spelt carbine and not carbean

[@alexanderhowarth6460]

benzine, ravine, vaccine, magazine, machine, marine

[@eisenkrieg553]

Atheist Orphan Huh, see I have always pronounced it that way but I'm an American all the way on the west coast.

[@lamri13uk]

Alexander Howarth columbine

[@fix0the0spade]

Bovine, supine, elephantine, spine, fine wine and dine. The Englsh language is a strange and wonderful thing, we make all these rules and then proceed to bend, subvert and ignore them.

[@degtyarev28]

Ian is the Bob Ross of guns

[@andrewgraham6755]

Nah thats hickok45.

[@GunsNGames1]

He's the Gun Jesus

[@dpi_samantha]

@@GunsNGames1 "I am the way, the truth and the light, and sometimes the light is muzzle flash"

[@davidparsons452]

"A happy little carbine "

[@Aron-ru5zk]

The grozas tea drinking cousin

[@studentacadia]

Interestingly, I was watching a news clip on Prince Harry's service as an apache pilot in Afghanistan, and he can be seen with an A2 carbine at several points throughout

[@possiblycrazy442]

It's such a cool family of rifles. I just wish they weren't so weighed down by their development.

[@mitternacht4062]

Oh my, I know the SA80 carbine far too well. It's only a little less accurate than the full version, so not too sure why they thought losing two inches was so important. The weapons don't live in the tank anyway, they stay in the side storage bins unless we're deploying somewhere and even then two crewman will have pistols. If a chally crewman is using his carbine/rifle, something has gone very quite wrong somewhere.

[@Alucard-gt1zf]

If a challenger crew has to use anything other than the main gun, something has gone wrong

[@PaddyInf]

You actually lose over 8" inches from the L85. Considering the rifle is only 30.9", that's quite a lot. To put it in perspective, the LSW is less than 5" longer than the rifle (35.4" vs 30.9") but feels ridiculously long.

[@someguy3766]

Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

[@just4laughs76]

I used the carbine on a CP tour in a well known sandy country, absoloutely loved it and would have it as my IW any day of the week

[@Steve-cc6xc]

@@just4laughs76 Interesting John in my day we used MP5k’s for covert work in Ulster and the CP guys also used the same HK weapon . Interesting to hear you rated the sa80 carbine for the same work accepted the 5.56 is going to deliver more stopping power then the 9mm HK. Can I ask please did you ever use the Carbine in a contact it just range work and how you rate the stopping power . Thanks mate

[@simonbarcode4696]

As a Cadet we awaited the new SA80 to replace our aging SMLEs, but we were shown a Drivers Carbine that had a lever action, that was designed for use teaching cadets to shoot but had no automatic or even semi automatic capability. Cadets in the UK are between the ages of 12 to 17 and often attached to schools and firearms laws are frankly weird to anyone in the US ,but the idea was to produce something a small person could learn on but not have to comply with regulations regarding semi automatic full bore storage in the days when the IRA would try and steal anything they could. This was the reasoning behind us not being issued SLRs, lots of cadet units met up in drill halls with little physical security. Anyhow, we were shown these horrible pieces of junk at a cadet instructor camp at the same time the regular army was getting the full sized proper version, but we never saw them again, so there's another carbine version out there somewhere. Cheers for reminding me about this national embarrassment of a rifle and it's even more useless variants.

[@TarnishUK]

A small point to note, the wedge pattern trigger is not an A2 feature. It was introduced fairly early on in the A1 service life after use in artic conditions found that compacted snow behind the trigger prevented operation. The wedge shape being intended to cut through the snow.

[@SqubaSquid]

Just wanted to say, I have watched most of your videos for Forgotten Weapons and some on InRange here on KZbin and I absolutely love them. The way you present your topics and share your knowledge on these interesting guns is amazing. I love shooting and learning about the different mechanics and histories of different weapons. I do not own any notable historical firearms but I have always wanted to own some of the weapons I see you talk about, disassemble and shoot. You have given me a greater interest into the history and mechanics of different firearms and for that I thank you, Ian. Because of your excellent and educational videos I have decided to contribute on your Patreon page. You are humble and ask for only $1, but the quality of your work is worth way more so I am contributing $5 monthly because I absolutely love the work you are doing. I know you are probably not going to read this but in the event that you do, I just want to say...Thank you for all the great videos Ian. Keep up the good work!

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Thanks!

[@notNajimi]

The original SA80/L85A1 was always charming to me so these short carbine models are super adorable

[@firemannotsam]

One small correction you make in all your SA80 videos. Magazine release catch shield. They were fitted in 1992 as the issue was highlighted in the gulf. All the rifles I used from then had a cover/shield. This was not an A2 upgrade it was already there. As was the wedge trigger which was also put on later 90s models before the A2 upgrade. Excellent videos.

[@Maraoder8]

DOSH NEW MAG IN

[@just_zone]

Quit movin', or I stick where the sun don't bloody shine.

[@saltdetected1756]

EYE AM WELDIN THIS DOAH

[@charleswatson2088]

REVIVE ME I HAVE THE M9!

[@Dja05]

Maraoder Gimme sum'money, will'ya! ?

[@ChaosPootato]

Stay put you div

[@Sheerwater909]

Bread, cheese, beer and Professor Ian on SA80 derivatives - perfect afternoon.

[@joesmith7957]

We trailed these in the RE search team as when the full size SA80 was slung it was interfering with the search equipment due to the barrel been too close haha

[@CornishMoose]

These little guys are cracking guns, great to fire and so compact. Still pretty accurate even out to range too

[@nosferatu5]

Man these series is quite a treat. Fantastic work Ian.

[@newpeupyoass]

"Phased-plasma rifle in the 40-watt range"

[@GjVj]

Hey, just what you see, pal.

[@Phos9]

Mattias Petrmichl a 40 watt plasma gun? Be careful with that, you might give someone a painful blister with one of those.

[@jackandersen1262]

Phos9 except that plasma is basically a gas (for our purposes), so the plasma would just expand out of the barrel and pose no threat to anyone.

[@markosofranic3905]

The actual plazma rifle gun prop from T2 is made from a rifle version of the Calico smg.

[@jackandersen1262]

cloridan Beauchamps plasma is created by running an electricity through a gas, not the other way around.

[@vorpalarms8734]

The wedge type trigger was retrofitted to the A1 very early on, certainly by the early nineties, long before the A2 was produced. Same goes for the magazine catch guard.

[@firemannotsam]

Same with the magazine release catch shield. They were fitted in 1992 as the issue was highlighted in the gulf. All the rifles I used from then had a cover/shield.

[@ek8710]

Snowcutter trigger

[@DirtyDave-ii3wu]

Your series about the SA80 is great, thanks for your efforts!

[@Datsyukiandeke]

Ian you are awesome...ive seen all of your videos and youre the most detailed, well spoken and most interesting history teacher of weapons...great channel

[@nickl7488]

oh wow! even more to this series! this is awesome!

[@spef7396]

these guns are really interesting simply because they look so familiar yet so different. Definitely the kind of thing I look to see you talking about Ian

[@tobyshort5162]

i read the comments on every video just to see if youve commented

[@spef7396]

I appreciate that man, I can't be bothered with making comments as soon as the videos come out as much anymore because I have stuff to do in real life and the comment section is super cancer, but I guess I'm basically the reason it's that way.

[@BuccesEnjoyer]

Please link me to the video and timestamp of your avi

[@Beanpapac15]

spef you are a god

[@IXIBobOhIXI]

The way these rattle around like a toy as Ian handles them amuses me.

[@kenricnarbrough8191]

They are unbelievably cool looking cut-downs of the standard service rifle. (only the sa80 with HK launcher is better) Thanks Ian, top video.

[@Shoorit]

The memories start flooding back seeing these..

[@MacKay1812]

Great video again! Thanks!

[@grahamehadden4320]

Great series

[@fonkyman]

never heard of or seen it and it actually looks really cool.. also as if it would handel very nicely

[@pebbingpebs4102]

Couldn't sleep so I go onto youtube only to find this beautiful video. Glad I couldnt sleep now. Also, with the hk rework of the rifles did they just trim down the old triggers or make new ones?

[@troy9477]

Interesting. They look like decent designs. I think i like the final design best. Not surprising, since it's HK. U mention that they were all made on LSW receivers, and u allude to a problem with LSW's. Did i miss that in your previous L85 videos? The history of this system is both fascinating and tragic. Great video as always. Enjoying the European tour.

[@Dmnv]

God damn it i love this channel.

[@adamsaunders5149]

LSW = crow cannon

[@madmack7501]

Long Silly Weapon

[@anthonypritchard2798]

@@madmack7501 Long Shitty Weapon

[@Jaemon4Eva]

I like it a lot, it may not be conventionally cool or aesthetically pleasing but something about it oozes cool.

[@damolux3388]

I used a Steyr Aug carbine while in the Royal NZ Armoured Corps. Awesome little weapon.

[@whereiskenneth]

Are you going to cover the L98 Cadet Rifle too?

[@Tighman77]

the a1 would be interesting, the a2, not so much (given they literally just removed the select fire switch)

[@Elektroid]

we just got some .22lr l98 a2s. That would be interesting.

[@hbuss12]

No point, the only difference between the cadet A2 rifle and the actual A2 is the sight, which is iron sights not SUSAT or other optic, lack of select fire switch and the hand guard, which uses the old plastic one, meaning it melts after lots of use.

[@Elektroid]

true but the background information about it would be interesting. and the .22 version...

[@hbuss12]

The .22 does more damage if you turn it around and use the butt of the rifle to attack someone. Its so weak and pretty useless. I haven't even used one since i was 1 star, and only very rarely get it out to teach.

[@spacepirate1955]

I love these

[@matthayward7889]

I wondered when you'd do the carbines! :)

[@jamesbernstone2961]

We had the L22a2 in the RAC and was allot easier to stow in the Chally. need all the space you can get in there when it's fully bombed up. Easier to shoot on your weapon handling test too ;)

[@PurpleHelmet]

Hey Sir - don't know if you will see this but I hope so. I have an Airsoft L85A2 that I'm thinking of converting to a carbine - undecided which style yet - and maybe making a video on for my channel. Would it be possible to use short clips - few seconds and/or screen grabs from this video to show folks what I'm looking to achieve? Totally understand if not!

[@Fight4MyCountry]

Did he ever get back to you lol

[@ducomaritiem7160]

I'm missing you mention the deflector-bolthandle on the last version.

[@whiteboygaming-xt3ng]

those are sum nice looking guns 😊

[@Elektroid]

im an army cadet in the UK. Is there any chance you could do a video on the l98 a2? Its our general purpose cadet rifle. Its an sa80 a2 but without the rails or optic and the selector switch is removed. We also just got in some .22lr conversions for it which could be interesting.

[@Elektroid]

yea unfortunatly the weapons are kept in a vault that looks like something out of payday

[@alvindurochermtl]

If he makes one cadet rifle video he might as well make videos for BB guns and olympic air rifles too. Not sure if this is what the channel is about.

[@alvindurochermtl]

BleechX gaming And what much do you expect he could say really? The different variants he reviewed before were all operational weapons designed specifically for different operational environments and hence there is substance in the reviews. Your .22 is just a target practice shooter with no operational value and no benchmarking interest whatsoever against other weapons performance under the same operational conditions.

[@Tumour-killer]

We used the L98A1s back in 04. They were useless back then.. Always seemed to jam.. Never had a 22cal though. 5.56 for us 😃

[@C4ndleJ4ck]

So much innuendo at the end ;)

[@ericpertnikovs8866]

Dear Sir I enjoy your channel immensely, may I however ask a question? It relates to gun caliber. Why the seemingly odd measurements? 5.56 mm, .45 cal ( I gather that is the diameter of the barrel , ie .45 of an inch.), .38. Are they just arbitrary or is there a system behind it? Eric Pertnikovs

[@Alucard-gt1zf]

I believe that relates to old musket ball sizes Here's a link which describes it amp.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/34qd1a/why_do_guns_have_such_bizarre_calibers/

[@commando552]

I imagine that somebody has pointed it out elsewhere in the comments here but I cant find it, but the thing about the AFV prototypes being made from LSW receivers is a myth. The same goes fror the L22A2 despite what wikipedia says. The LSW receive has holes in it for bolting the outrigger to which are missing on all of the carbine versions. In the case of the protos they were made from new L85A1 receivers, and the L22A2s were made from excess L85A1s that hadn't yet been upgraded to L85A2s. They could theoretically use some LSW internal parts, but the receivers are deffinitely L85 ones. This leaves a bit of a mystery as to what happened to all of the LSWs. There are a lot of L85A2s and L85A3s that have the LSW outrigger holes, but this is because they have newly built A3 receivers where HK included the holes in all of them for commonality in case the LSW continued being used. This suggests that rather than being rebuilt into anything, all of the LSWs are either sitting in a warehouse or have been completely scrapped.

[@awmperry]

Always liked the look of the L22. Any chance of a video on the L98 Cadet GP rifle? My first 5.56 rifle - I have very fond memories of it. :-)

[@Alucard-gt1zf]

It's an sa80 without the automatic option.... If you've fired it then you should have dissembled it and figured out the only difference is the fact they removed the automatic setting

[@spamboli]

at 5:46 - TIL the MOD uses NSN's as does all of NATO. in the USAF we call them National Stock Numbers, but evidently elsewhere it's known as a NATO Stock Number. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Stock_Number

[@londonjolly9174]

They made a dissipator L85. Never thought I'd see that.

[@swietoslaw]

wow this first shir version is really short and cool, kinda similar to russian OTs-14 Groza

[@JammyD2579]

I actually found the history of the carbines a little more interesting than the journey of the full rifles! Genuinely did not know and not consider that the carbine was "L22A2" because of the HK rebuild, so obvious in hindsight.

[@olliehain]

Do a video on the sa80a3

[@danhulson8703]

i think this is a really smart looking weapon

[@jsdennis90]

I love the royal armouries. Best museum

[@DaddyPims]

Damn that HK Carbine is tasty. Didn't know we used these.

[@Alucard-gt1zf]

Yep, navy and air corps use them along with tank crews

[@castintime6245]

Leeds Royal Armouries is a fantastic place to visit if your ever in Yorkshire

[@sulivanmagnum]

Ian, will you cover the single shot cadet version?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Yes.

[@laxityazathoth1423]

I fired one of the 2nd pattern carbines at corsaam at bisley in 96/97 or so

[@tommyrockstar100]

i noticed on the last gun they added a gaurd around the mag release at last

[@exploatores]

what is the diffrence in weight between the carbin and the full lenght version and wich is the heavyest of them.

[@lightie-vp6bd]

Exploatores Ayup buddy. I trained with the Sa80 and was issued a carbine in Afghanistan as my rifle became faulty. They're similar in weight really, the normal sa80 although having a longer barrel has a light foregrip. The carbines metallic front seemed to make them equal in weight overall.

[@craigpp10]

Would love to see these being fired!

[@TheKusa5]

jeez! the middle one looks just like a Micro Tavor!

[@Shad0wBoxxer]

How many people tried to clean their cell screen because of that black dot

[@Tobascodagama]

Looks like even HK couldn't figure out how to address the "firing from the hip" concern with the bolt handle.

[@granapriego]

Just out of interest what has ARES got to do with Ian? Is it his day job?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

A do writing and research for them from time to time.

[@viperdagger7732]

That L22A2 would without a doubt kick ass in 300BLK with a suppressor.

[@chavezchavo]

The more I watch Forgotten Weapons, the more i realisze how much i don't know about firearms. Never knew the significant difference between the carbine versions and the main rifle itself.

[@GdaySport]

Have you noticed whenever Ian is at Leeds Armouries, he is never given the courtesy of trying the weapons on a range like at Rock Island? That's because Leeds is in England, and nobody is allowed to have any fun here anymore...

[@olivialambert4124]

Surprised they didn't take a folding handguard too. I'd imagine that might help bulk a bit.

[@pmodd]

To be honest, I quite like the crude 'all business' look of the gun. Sure it might not have the style of a TAR-21 or a P90, but it's still pretty badass. Pity that charging handle looks like an accident waiting to happpen...

[@tacticalvelociraptor9458]

God i miss my l22a2 i lost it when my unit re reroled from tanks :/ it was so comfy to shoot standing

[@SacoreyRugger]

that second pattern company would be a neat s/a

[@MB-fe6ly]

How are you supposed to fit the front sight on the latest a2, as I see no dovetail

[@PaddyInf]

You don't. You use a SUSAT/LDS.

[@MB-fe6ly]

Groucho thx

[@johnwebb7411]

Watching this on my phone and I've tried to wipe that black for over his left shoulder off my screen about 10 times now

[@BoloH.]

That carbine would look pretty badass with a silencer

[@ThompsonDB]

British - CarBINE, like wine, brine, shine. American - CarBEEN, like fuck you make whatever noise you feel like.

[@adriansilva9377]

I used the carbine version in Iraq but my one had the acog scope and more upgrades than the ones shown here but it was 2009 it was great very accurate and rear to see as I was always stopped and asked about it on base. It was very useful as I was ARF (Airborne Reaction force) always jumping in and out of helicopters.

[@mattjohnson7775]

oh those things look fucking cool!!

[@readman010]

Drinking game, watch every FW video of a bullpup and take a shot every time Ian says "bullpup"

[@GunsNGames1]

I got a better one, knock your head on the wall every time he says bullpup

[@ParabellumHistory]

if the experimental ones had the problem of the bolt handle hitting the user while firing from the hip, how did HK fix that? Or they decided that the problem was how the soldier fires from the hip and the solution was for him to move his arm away from the bolt handle?

[@Alucard-gt1zf]

They just said to suck it up and learn how to not hit yourself

[@hekkenschutz]

I'd love to the developmental process of this rifle compared to the AUG or FAMAS

[@RavenDrakearud]

That '94 version looks Hella smexy. Sad that version wasn't adopted.

[@crazyfvck]

I think the 1994 version looks pretty sweet :)

[@burdofr7524]

Now this is much better than the l86

[@TimStamper89]

I remember the first time I saw one was on the news next to Harry Wales when they finally released the footage of him on Op Tour I wondered wtf is that thing as I'd only ever seen standard A2s

[@ciderandthorazine]

huh... it does seem that "car-been" ought to be the more correct pronunciation given the origin of the term. i've been saying it wrong! the original '89 version looks the most badass somehow. very cool.

[@ThatGhillieGuy]

That black dot on the wall bugs the hell out of me I keep wiping my screen trying to get rid of it

[@WizuTheLich]

So, is this AKS-74U of L85 rifle?

[@ringowunderlich2241]

Why would i want to shoot a bullpup design gun from the hip? I mean wasn't it a partly purpose of the bullpup design, even to go along with all of its short commings, to have a gun that can be worn tactically tight on the body, with the buttstock always on the shoulder and therefore easy and fast being brought up for a proper aim (in an urban environment)?

[@ProjectD13X]

So how many bottles of Vodka do we have to crowdfund for you to be able to take a look at those Korobov prototype rifles?

[@TrooperLFC]

there's nothing forgotten about the SA80 family of rifles lad.. they are still in active service for fucks sake :D :D

[@daktari]

Any plans to do a video on what actually bridged the gap between the Sterling and the L22A2, the HK53? The British military and police had tons of them for a very long time.

[@Solidsnake0208]

I've not yet found out, but I have a good idea why there was never an A1!

[@jean-lucpicard5510]

Not clear what a Carbines particular use is, could someone enlighten me?

[@Alucard-gt1zf]

It's a rifle that is shorter than your standard rifle, they are used in places which need compact guns but can forsake accuracy due to being in tight areas The main uses are tank crews, helicopter crews (Apache) and ships due to their tight corridors

[@sulivanmagnum]

How ironic that in the US, we have mock dissy AR builds, with fake rifle length front sights and carbine gas under the handguard, where the Brits did the opposite; a mock carbine length sight if you will with a hidden pistol length gas under the handguard, built on an LSW receiver!

[@lukeweemanperry1062]

These are used by helicopter aircrew and pilots in the RAF (Royal Air Force )and the AAC( Army Air Corps )

[@TenebrusI07]

A smg length l85 is probably still heavier than a 14.5" AR15