First accurate photo of Joseph Smith, the LDS prophet?! | with Curtis Weber

[@2000disneyland]

I always felt that Joseph Smith was more rugged than shown in other portrayals. He lived a hard life, he worked strenuously clearing land and timber, and providing for his family thru manual labor, plus the migration with the early saints.

[@epicon6]

The scratches on the photo and the age of the photo itself makes him look even older. And many 38 year old people can look anything between 29 and 45. And people back then worked outside in the sun a lot, without any sunscreen and that ages the skin fast.

[@bubba7665]

I can hardly believe anyone had a harder life. I thank God everyday for the strength and courage he displayed without fail. The unceasing nobility he displayed throughout his life (Emma also) fills my heart with gratitude and I daily think , praise to the man who communed with Jehovah.

[@JIKOKALOL]

JS fits best in the FLDS community

[@sharonberget5442]

So excited, as a descendent of Hyrum Smith I find this so very exciting. I’ve sent this broadcast to other relatives. Thank you.

[@KalleenHa]

Same! What child do you come down from? He and Mary Fielding are my fourth g-grandparents through Martha Ann.

[@KalleenHa]

@@HopeinAllThings82 Why does this make you sad?

[@Debster279]

@@KalleenHa Lets see, he used my unique technique and acts like it's not something he saw me do, he is giving them false hope after forensic scientists this January said it had no apparent likeness to the Prophet, he repeatedly threatens to attack me and has since June, and frankly believe he's been in attack mode since 2017, when an unknown "expert" in the Church History dept used his same words he used in an email in 2018, same ideas in 2019, he frankly in my opinion is only doing this because I brought to light the fact he's made 12 pages of google thick believe only Shannon Tracy disagrees with him on the skulls, no real experts to doctors and that's a lie, claiming that the skulls were not misidentified when they were in 1928, convinced so many Tracy did the analysis when it was not even him, but doctors with Phds in 1995 who used correct current techniques, he's been trying to attack Tracy on MY KZbin PAGE very recently, the guy is in remission for cancer and has nothing to do with me letting the world know that 6 doctors think the skulls are switched in the graves by accident, I had to make a video, I am not living in Australia with the experts I was working on a paper with for four years, they watched my channel and I felt that was a great way to get notice for the Book In Search of Joseph and it's great analysis. I am sad for him even though he's been so mean to me for many, many years... I've had no "teams" of experts other than Teghan Lucas and Maciej Henneberg who know nothing of Church History, and so much is just inaccurate as well, ignoring the many sources linked to JS III stating the forward facing painting was done before 1844, three times JS III said this... three.

[@jakebeaver2139]

The clown is a befitting picture for that statement

[@ShapesAndColors_]

I’m only a random 16 year old kid, But, in Nauvoo I have seen his and Hyrums ( idk how to spell) Face casting and they don’t really look similar at all.

[@HopeinAllThings82]

Forensic Scientists Teghan Lucas and Maciej Henneberg Agree with you, so you're good! They were offered an interview with them and refused, they only trust people from Utah, it's a Utah paranoia thing.

[@kboydlake83]

I’m an experienced 3d character artist. I agree with you. The nose in the daguerreotype is not Joseph’s nose. The death mask gives it away.

[@boysrus61]

Curtis does an in-depth discussion of his findings with a lot of drawings and comparisons on the Mormon Book Reviews podcast. It is called "Joseph Smith Photo the Latest Evidence! w/Curtis Weber". It is an extremely interesting discussion. Easy to google and find.

[@MormonBookReviews]

Thanks for the shout-out!

[@matthewsailors3153]

I love this photograph. Something about the oil painting that Emma had in her house gives Joseph almost a boyish look. In the photograph, I see a man -- I see determination and serenity, but also sorrow and the burden he was called to bear. In these last days, all things shall be revealed, and we welcome truth from whatever source it may come, just as Joseph taught.

[@lindamartinez7006]

Emma did say that none of those paintings even looked like him .

[@palimpalim5291]

The paintings and the death mask match. This does not.

[@HopeinAllThings82]

That painting was done from life, Joseph saw it done when he was 36 (died at 38), and his some Joseph Smith III had it duplicated, better and better... and... it shows an injury doctor Herrod noted in his notes back in 1995, a step deformity of the left eye, no at all apparent in this daguerreotype, but IS shown in the Iowa Historical Societies' painting.

[@bayshorelaw6970]

Fascinating and VERY exciting! l agree with Mr. Weber about involving additional experts. In my work, we often bring in different types of forensic specialists, and the technology and precision they have now is mind blowing. The one piece I think is important, is hiring specialists not only from within, but also *outside* the Church. The tools they have are incredible, but most still rely on human elements. Because this is so big, I would want to be sure any potential confirmations can be backed by people without a dog in the fight, who wouldn't have any emotional investment in the answer. Because when theres human factors of any kind, even in the highest tier of science and research, things can be skewed or weighted in or out of favor without our conscious mind even realizing it. Great show & work guys!

[@acurtweber]

My work has been reviewed by four forensic anthropologists, only one of which is a member of the Church, and 3 of the 4 have stated the man in the daguerreotype is likely Joseph Smith.

[@bryandyer5454]

Like having an impartial jury, I suppose.

[@Gasp7000]

I looked at this photo and as a sculptor and artist with some forensic and age progression and regression understanding, I immediately said, “Yes, that feels correct”. I have never accepted the death mask as the actually look of his “living face” alignment and for good reason. I know it is his mask, but lying down, sunken skin, chin back and lower eyelids “unlit” and the corners of the jaw excluded, it just doesn’t help us see his living countenance. Age progression and issues like the trauma he was always going through make a difference, too. The one that is a lot younger aligns for me, too.

[@lang1031]

Not to mention I heard his lower jaw broke when he was shot while jumping from the jail window

[@janetcarlson4923]

One thing no one ever mentions is the look in his eyes. First I see is sorrow which Joseph had more than Hyrum. Then the eyes look like they ate looking straight into my soul. Not that I think it matters if is him for my testimony but I feel it is him.

[@richardtong3099]

I'm not ruling it out but in my mind the most distinguished features of Joseph based on his death mask and paintings were his large rounded cheek bones, they are not a feature at all in the photo

[@acurtweber]

Tissues of the face begin to swell 18 to 36 hours after death, and the death mask molds were created about 24 hours after Hyrum and Joseph were killed. Artists I have spoken with (including some with forensic training) think the mask of Joseph evidences swelling of facial tissues, and this might account for the apparent difference in the cheeks (and maybe even the nose to some degree, though the nostrils being stuffed may significantly contribute to the shapes of the alae and to of the nose in the mask).

[@lindamartinez7006]

You can not know what someone looks like ever from a face mask or a painting by any artist . The only way to know how a person really looks is a real picture . There is a real picture of him that is painted from the real picture .

[@richardtong3099]

@@acurtweber I'm no expert in forensics but I'm am an artist with a fair bit of experience in portrait work. When I look at the mask I actually see significant shrinking in the areas of soft tissue, I would have to admit that the shrinkage could give the appearance of larger cheek bones. I'm not fully convinced though yet.

[@charlemagnetheFranks]

​@@acurtweberI left my uneducated Abraham Lincoln comment above. I agree.

[@palimpalim5291]

@@acurtweber The face of the death mask doesn't look swollen at all.

[@latterdaycovenantliving]

I have already watched the 3 hour breakdown on the other channel. I am sure this is Brother Joseph anyone who still thinks this is Hyrum needs to check out the other video which obviously has more info to back up everything he says here.I was pleased to see you already have the link in the description.

[@Debster279]

Publicly Dee Jay Bawden said two experts in England concluded that this wasn't Joseph Smith, two more in the Anthropological Review's January issue also noted this was not Joseph Smith. If you look at the dibble death mask you can see his eyebrow hairs, look at Benjamin West's cartoons- although not trying to be humanistic to the point of looking exactly like Joseph- he emphasized Joseph's eyebrows greatly, when meant... you see them sitting in courtroom as him, as he sketched the Prophet from Life, and his nose was and is large, this is a man with a small nose and yes- I know who the forensic scientists are that are looking at it right now and they have not publicly said anything yet, but pray that they are given permission to!!!

[@anonymoussdmtsemployee7770]

Man our prophet looks so amazing! My great great great grandpa William W Phelps looks like him kinda

[@brookefair]

David Lindsley Studio did an analysis of this daguerreotype in a video called “What Did Joseph Smith Really Look Like” that has me pretty convinced that this is actually a picture of Hyrum.

[@dbwoolston]

Curtis addresses the Hyrum argument in his 3-hour video on Mormon Book Reviews.

[@katrinad.571]

⁠@@dbwoolstonI just watched the Lindsey Studio analysis and look forward to viewing the BoMR interview. All the analysis is quite impressive.

[@latterdaycovenantliving]

The link to that video is in the description of this one

[@JennieFur47]

Like others, I watched a video where the guy was saying all these same things about it perfectly matching Hyrum. Let’s have a debate!

[@DegaVertigo]

I was also pretty convinced by Lindsley’s series on it, but Curtis’s analysis presented on MBR was so thorough that it changed my mind. While I had expected Curtis to address Lindsley’s points directly - he didn’t - instead he went into the material evidence at a granular level.

[@geralddavis3326]

Does it really matter in the long run if it is Joseph or Hyrum or neither of them? We don't worship Joseph Smith Jr. we look to him as the Restorationalist of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Will knowing if its really him change anything, no, the Church will be same, it won't convert a soul. Don't get me wrong I love the Prophet Joseph Smith and testify of him when I can, but a picture isn't going to make my testimony stronger than it already is, the Holy Ghost has given me what I need to know and feel about him. Blessed be his name throughout all eternity, but we don't really need this to have members of the Church say yes its him no its not causing disputations, which the Lord warned us not to have. I'm glad the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve that I know of have not come out saying it is or it is not. They may have personal opinions but I'm happy they have not shared that with the Church.

[@JD2CYLINDERNUT]

😂, yea, ole Joe Smith was a model citizen. Treasure hunting crook that had a skill of deceiving folks especially young girls. Several different accounts of the first vision, wacky “interpretation of the Book of Abraham”, documentation of drinking after the “revelation of the word of wisdom”, planned to over throw the US govt, financially screwed folks in the name of “the church”. Do your homework man. You’re in for a long. eye opening trip.

[@juststokedtobehere]

You are right, but it makes his story more real to us which helps us appreciate his sacrifice and the reality of the restoration of Christ's church on the earth.

[@juststokedtobehere]

And that does in fact help others take us more seriously and in turn can help in people's conversion.

[@bubba7665]

Agreed

[@Ditka-89]

Why did early Mormons refer to him as their god? And why is it canon that he became a god after his death. I don’t understand why he WOULDNT be worshipped if he is now a god and is on par with Jesus Christ-which are Mormon doctrine

[@benjaminsmith6031]

I like this picture. I think he looks tough. Joseph Smith is a prophet of God, just like Abraham, Moses and Elijah. My testimony has come by reading and following his teachings. Calumny may defame, but his name and his fame will go on forever. Millions shall come to know Brother Joseph again and repent and come unto Christ.

[@RyanMercer]

Oooh I forgot about the daguerreotype. 📷

[@itsdutchintime1907]

Do you think it's Joseph? I'm personally on board with it.

[@RyanMercer]

@@itsdutchintime1907 I didn't but this video has me changing my mind.

[@JaylaBee]

Thank you for the awesome editing that showed us everything they were talking about so well

[@sjskousen]

I understand when the remains of Joseph and Hyrum where transferred to their current location the Reorganized Church took Polaroids of their bones. From that they discovered Joseph, after being shot and falling from the 2nd story window landed on his face. This broke most of his facial bones and severely affected the death mask which was also affected by cotton balls inserted to fill the face. How does this affect the drawings based on the death mask and this analysis?

[@lucybates8078]

Interesting perspective I hadn't thought of.

[@HopeinAllThings82]

Actually, when you superimpose Maudsley's profile of Joseph with the death mask, no change, and the skull buried as Hyrum- with just the maxilla broken is the skull six doctors and three studies have concluded really is Joseph Smith's. Dr. Niles Herrod a Maxillofacial Surgeon wrote the maxilla looked fresh with no decay, it was probably broken when they disinterred the skulls, and a matching injuring to the left eye was seen a step deformity only seen on Joseph's death mask, which shows his left eye is lower than his right- from major impact, and since that orbital bone is intact, it remodeled and would have shown in his photo. Dr. Van de Graaff wrote books on anatomy and taught at BYU, he was working with Dr. Herrod and ZYGOTE media, they ALL concluded the skull with intact facial bones was Joseph Smith, as did three more doctors in 2008 and one more that year in a third study, Joseph Lyons tested real test lab skulls neurosurgeons use in skull to practice their techniques, and found no way could Hyrum be shot through the nose and have an intact maxilla right below that hole and the forehead of Hyrum perfect matches the skull buried as Joseph (broken facial bones), plus the Joseph Smith papers has notes by the apostles stating when Hyrum was disinterred in fall 1844 by Emma her team, his team were falling out into his mouth and his face was basically caving in, the soft tissue wasn't holding the broken bones together anymore.

[@taylor_su]

The moment I saw the daguerreotype, something hit me. I don't know how else to put it. I looked at him and thought, "Now here is a man who has been tarred and feathered." There's just something in his face that, like Curtis said, communicates struggle, exhaustion, and hard work on the American frontier. And his eyes, man. No wonder people followed him to the edge of the map.

[@Debster279]

"Many people have come forth with daguerreotypes claiming to be the prophet, however, none have been conclusively proven to be Joseph Smith Jnr (McCarl 1962). The latest of these claims has been made in 2022 when Ronald Roming and Lachlan Mackay presented a picture found in the locket inherited from Joseph Smith III’s son’s wife. The origins of this image are still discussed, while the similarity of the person depicted on this image to Joseph Smith Jnr is not apparent." Roming and Mckay 2022) Doctor's Teghan Lucas and Maciej Henneberg, Debra Hatfield, "A morphological comparison between a death mask of the American Prophet Joseph Smith and a photograph likely to depict him", pg. 3, ANTHROPOLOGICAL REVIEW January 3, 2023. Above Doctors Lucas and Henneberg professional face identifiers note they do not see similarity between the Larsen Daguerreotype and the Death Mask, artwork of Joseph Smith, having at this point spent FOUR YEARS studying his death mask, with no pay from me, but pro bono- impressed with the similarity between the death mask a Carte de Visite printed by copying a daguerreotype (much like Emma's CDV of her holding Baby David Hyrum Smith, original done in 1844, paper reprint done in the 1860s, likely paid by Julia Murdock to a local photographer), which was printed ten miles away from the sons of Joseph Smith, the sons being Joseph Smith III who was running the RLDS Church and working Editor of the Saints Herald (since 1866), on a CDV that was printed after August 1866, due to a lack of Sun Stamp, which ended the month Emma wrote a letter to her son Joseph Smith III stating she wanted to Visit Plano, she would have had to go through Newark- where this image was copied to get to Plano and she did this trip a few times! Plus, J.S. Bibbins the photographic artist own father knew Emma Smith, Elisha Bibbins was noted in papers done on the Hale Family and her Father Issac's overhearing Emma praying in the woods- was due to her conversion through Elisha Bibbins who was on the circuit in 1812, according to the family records of the Bibbin's family- he then moved a few miles south to Scranton area where he married in 1814, J.S. Bibbins was born in 1821, and with initials such as "J.S."- a famous Methodist Father, Joseph Smith III noted having many Methodist friends in Plano... but no names, J.S. brother was a methodist preacher in Plano. Curtis Weber and I talked in 2018, he started to photoanthropometric studies of my image and I asked his training, I asked about his training- he trained himself studying cranio facial reconstruction, he had no training in forensics whatsoever. I had a strong inspiration from the Holy Ghost to not work with Curtis but to work with forensic scientists and I got to work with real Professional face identifiers Doctor Teghan Lucas and Maciej Henneberg, emailing her less than 8 months later, she responding January 2019 and after three months studying separately these two forensic anthropologists (who have written Scientific paper, have Phds) said they each separately studied the image different and were going to write a scientific paper on all alleged images, but they would need permission to do so, by January 2023 the paper was just on my image, whatever occured between Curtis and them is not something they have divulged, but their opinions are noted on page three of this image. As I got to know Teghan and hear who wealth of knowledge I told her about my technique of sketching facial features, as Curtis is dishonestly claiming to have come up with, something I came up with in 2017 and she stated that they do not do that- in 2020, Curtis has been copying me. I was told about the inappropriate use of photoanthropometry and it's level of not even identifying the same person- as the same person (study done in 2011 and one I am able to verify on my own channel looking at images of the death mask of James Dean) angle distortion, camera distortion, LIGHT DISTORTION all play a role in debunking this identfying others as is the same with photos of the skull. In the above noted paper in the anthropological review they state, "…Given the potential for bias in facial superimposition, and the unreliability of photoanthropometry and the inappropriate use of the holistic approach for image to image comparisons where time to complete the task is irrelevant, morphological analysis is the preferred method for facial identification." Curtis claims to have used morphological comparison but his photos are are not the without tweaking, he changes things for his own bias and is a dishonest in his techniques, exploding the size of the nose for comparison of my CDV to try and prove the nostrils are not shaped right, his tracings are not well done and again it's an artistic technique he copied from watching my channel, he admitted to watching my channel and gives no credit and it's not a forensic technique at all, it's only good in a video as you can remove the tracing and show what is below with I have done for 6 years straight, to be transparent NOT altering the mask as he has and I have proven it so. Gaiwan Weaver was a great help in my analysis of my likely Image of Joseph Smith, as we studied Lucian Foster's photography styles and found he commonly had bad lighting, he was poor and living in the Mansion House, the Larsen Daguerreotype has even "good lighting", whereas Phoebe and Wilford Woodruff's daguerreotypes have same lighting as seen in my CDV harsh side lighting, and a short background, Emma's daguerreotype was done in 1845 and was better lighting but still side lighting, but again a background that near perfectly matches the angle and direction of a shorter background tilting down to the left, very unique pattern found on it as well that matches. The hair I've noted as matching the mask, artwork mostly is from 1842, two years BEFORE Joseph Smith died, later artwork by Maudsley show's Joseph being unable to do the brush forward pop up hairstyle but coming over and receding greatly. Larsen's image shows ears that are very unique and do not match artwork of the ears of Joseph Smith, but my CDV does, the nose lines up too low on the lower lash line on the daguerreotype, whereas the artwork and mask show it protrudes above the upper lash line and Curtis is not using a sketch of Joseph Smith's skull at all.

[@lindamartinez7006]

Do you actually think Emma smiths picture real Picture holding baby David looks anything at all like Emma’s paintings ? She had lazy eye looked nothing like her paintings nothing .

[@HopeinAllThings82]

@@lindamartinez7006 It is in the Memoirs of President Joseph Smith III as "Emma Smith" and in Julia Murdock Smith's family album, written below it "Mrs. Joseph Smith and son Dave, born 4 months after his father was kill". The original daguerreotype is in the Anthropological Review's free January issue, all black and I helped write that scientific journal that took four years and was peer reviewed, but the Community of Christ sent us paperwork showing the original daguerreotype was passed down to David Hyrum's family line, as he is the baby in the CDV you've likely seen. On top of that, there are older images of Emma Smith as an elderly woman we 100% know are her with the eye droop on the opposite side of the face (as the daguerreotype was laterally reversed). I have 6 years of research on this subject and have written book, been published in a scientific journal. Pg. three of the January Issue of the Anthropological Review they state that there is no likeness between this locket image of a man and the known death mask, artwork of Joseph.

[@Debster279]

​@@lindamartinez7006 I'll try responding again (I reply and the reply disappears), when we wrote our paper that was published in the Anthropological Review, the Community of Christ had a signed provenance letter stating David Hyrum's descendants donated the daguerreotype original to their Church, and it's David Hyrum in the Picture. Julia Murdock Smith owned the Family photo album the 1860s paper Carte de Visite- copy of the 1845 daguerreotype was found in, she wrote on it that was Mrs. Joseph Smith and baby Dave born 4 months after his father was killed, very specific. With so many later verified older of images of Emma Smith, with the exact same ptosis of the eye, face shape... everything, owned and passed down by her sons and grandchildren, there is no question the oxidized- blackened daguerreotype of Emma and baby David is real and is of her. Rick Grunder ran a site and once owned that Smith Family Album with images verified to be of the the four adult sons of Joseph and Emma Smith, it's 100% certainty it is of Emma. The lazy eye is seen in her elderly photos as well. I think her husbands murder and giving birth 9 times, Gracia Jones (a descendant) has said that the eye was a result of a stroke during childbirth with David Hyrum Smith. I hope this answers the question... Rick Grunder's page changed, but I linked the way back machine version on The Prophets Scars page.

[@BlueJayBirdSaint]

What I like the most about that picture, is that you can see a real-man there.

[@Rudyard_Stripling]

I also feel a sense of knowing what Joseph looks like after seeing the photo. His face just reaches out to me and tells me, yes, I am Joseph.😃

[@aliunde]

Has anyone done an analysis of the daguerreotype with Hyrum Smith as the comparison? Some things (like the lack of a protruding middle portion of the top lip-I just don't see it in the daguerreotype) make me think this is actually Hyrum, not Joseph. At least the daguerreotype didn't strike me as looking like Joseph the first time I saw it. It seems not to match the images (paintings or otherwise) that I had become familiar with before the daguerreotype appeared.

[@latterdaycovenantliving]

He has a 3 hour video on this on a channel called Mormon Book Reviews the link is in the description of this video

[@boysrus61]

@@latterdaycovenantliving This 3 hour video is very very good.

[@smoothie7362]

The painter david lindsley goes in depth on it and comes to the same conclusion that it’s hyrum

[@chasbee]

@@smoothie7362 David Lindsley's videos are VERY convincing! After seeing them I too am FAR more inclined to believe it's Hyrum - if, in fact it is either of them.

[@lucybates8078]

I agree that it would more likely be Hyrum. The most reliable images of the two are the death masks rather than the paintings. Joseph had a stronger nose feature than Hyrum.

[@kaitpricot]

Hi friends! Thank you for your thoughts and another great video! I was wondering if anyone knew where I could connect with LDS members online as someone who is new to LDS? I’m meeting with missionaries but would also like to connect with others online to make friends!

[@RyanMercer]

/r/latterdaysaints and /r/lds on Reddit both have healthy communities, //rlatterdaysaints also has a discord server.

[@rutht2023]

Where are you? You can always reply to me, but if you want friends in person please go to your local ward. You will meet many people there and probably be able to make some good friends. :)

[@lucybates8078]

A better and more reliable place to meet other members would be at church.

[@kaitpricot]

@@RyanMercer thank you so much!

[@kaitpricot]

@@rutht2023 I live in the Bible Belt! And thank you!! I’m absolutely gonna go and am so excited, I just like being able to connect with others around the world too :)

[@Laguero]

Joseph looks weathered in that dagguereotype, which would be fitting given the demands of his era as well as his life.

[@Freddy78909]

That hairstyle was very very popular during that time period. The photo could be anyone. But if that is Joseph, I'm happy with it 🙂

[@sarahswanger979]

I watched another video from a specialist/artist that says it’s not Joseph but could be Hyrum. When I saw this picture it felt wrong to me. So far all my instincts have been pretty much on. Something doesn’t match. I could be wrong.

[@waynelevitz6672]

That was and still is my thought; this is Hyrum. However, this is pretty compelling. I would love to see the same level of evaluation/comparison to any surviving data, death mask, etc., to Hyrum. And maybe do the same between Joseph and Hyrum.

[@HopeinAllThings82]

Forensic experts don't think it's Joseph Smith, they wrote it in the Anthropological Review, and Saints Unscripted is so convinced this is it, they keep deleting my comments saying JUST THAT, nothing controversial, they don't wan the truth to be out. Hyrum's nose is wide, very wide and seen in the forward facing painting of him... Emma kept it in her Parlor, but there was one, it's lost... this man in the locket has a SMALL and very THIN nose. It was a January issue of the scientific paper, pg. 3- top right collumn.

[@ryanbradley3293]

It’s so weird how much the painting looks like what I think he looks like but the daguerreotype doesn’t look anything like I thought he looked like despite them being practically identical.

[@Debster279]

He is hotter than this, was younger looking, this man is really truly too old.

[@1brennon11]

I hope you have an episode coming about Porter Rockwell.

[@RyanMercer]

Oooooh, I'd watch that!

[@MormonAlly]

This is probably one of the best photographs that could indicate it could be him. However, it doesn't matter whether its him or not. Mormons continue to follow their hearts without needing to have pictures.

[@PageTurnersbooktube523]

I'm 35 but look really old I feel due to my military service

[@carlbaumeister3439]

Not sure. Even though he makes a convincing argument based on so many things lining up, when compared to both the famous painting and the death mask, the eyes look too small, the nose too short and narrow, and the general demeanor & character of the face is different. If the painting is based on that particular daguerreotype, why then is the hair parted differently, and not as wavy, especially around the ears? Why are the eyes so much more prominent, the nose longer?

[@hrv4908]

The jaw line is more of a wedge shape in the painting.

[@palimpalim5291]

Well they compared self portraits of Da Vinci and Mona Lisa and "found out" that she is actually a transgender version of the master himself. Or so they think.

[@carlbaumeister3439]

@@palimpalim5291 Yes, I’ve heard that theory. Who knows, right? 🤷‍♂️

[@palimpalim5291]

@@carlbaumeister3439 I find it fascinating how fast people jump on these things. Apparently 3 experts (?) were examining the photo, 1 concluded (this one) it was Joseph Smith, one that it was Hyrum and the third that it shows neither. So it is 2:1 in experts that this is NOT Joseph Smith. Still people take it as fact.

[@carlbaumeister3439]

@@palimpalim5291 Agreed. The guys in the video are saying things like, “oh, now that I see the photo of the prophet, I feel like I know him much better.” And lots of comments say similar things. And yet, there’s a really good chance it’s not Joseph Smith.

[@harmagician1]

The painting shows hanging earlobes. The photo shows attached earlobes. Not him.

[@acurtweber]

Which painting are you referring to? The front facing oil portrait?

[@bobwilkinson1217]

That is not Joseph Smith. There was a Dagueorritype in New York that matched Joseph's face far better. That face seems way too old for Joseph who died at age 39.

[@chadmerrill5778]

What is his response to the opinion that the man in the daguerreotype looks like he’s 54 not 34 or however old Joseph was.

[@lindamartinez7006]

That man does not look 54 Gezz. He looks about 42

[@RyanMercer]

Go find someone that works outside for a living today, especially in rural America, most of the time you're going to think they're considerably older than they actually are. Go find a woman that spends a lot of time intentionally tanning, the uv damage alone will make them look years or even a decade or more older than they are.

[@palimpalim5291]

@@RyanMercer The death mask does not look that old. End of story.

[@Debster279]

People forget... they had better sun protection practices than us! It was life or death if they didn't protect all their skin! Oliver Cowdery was nearly the same age, see an image of him at or near this time period of 1844... there is one... he doesn't look as old as this man, BUT BY looks this own in his 1850 daguerreotype- taken when he was... 50...

[@phoenixtimber4343]

When that picture came out I was excited but I did a bunch of research and decided it probably wasn’t him. There is another younger daguerreotype that is a better match. It would’ve been taken right after he lost a lot of weight in jail.

[@alissong.]

ok but we know that the owner of the photo is a old woman who is a relative of joseph so that could be her grampa or something and they could just look similar because of genetics, just my 2 cents, if this is really him, this is very cool!

[@ggrace1133]

It looks more like drawings of Hyrum, but they are brothers, after all. Cool stuff. We’ll all see him soon enough, I reckon.

[@richardbarrow4620]

We focus too much on Joseph Smith. We even sing praise to the man who communed with Jehovah.. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is about Jesus Christ.

[@JD-pr1et]

Studying Joseph Smith's Image and Life has another picture that corresponds with the death mask much better. This gentleman in the photo doesn't match. She also goes into some of the issues with Mr. Weber's analysis.

[@MarleneKerr-p6x]

This is not joseph smith

[@sdb816]

Still can’t be 100% certain because the scaling tools can be easily manipulated to transform the source imagery (paintings, photos, etc) to the template. Tools like photoshop and others, are designed to allow skewing and distortion to shoehorn things into shapes and proportions we want. Need to see the process and workflow along with the rationale for the choices made during the process. Otherwise it’s actually quite easy to make any overlaying photo “fit” the parameters.

[@Debster279]

Which is what he did when analyzing the Newark, Illinois CDV copy of a daguerreotype on his facebook page, he enlarged the nose when comparing the CDV and narrowed it for the Larsen daguerreotype's superimposition and his morphological comparisons look nothing like what I came up with using the best photograph on the web of the Dibble Death mask, and when comparing the locket guy's lips to the painting he notes he reduced the width but just doing that doesn't make the midline of the lips thicker- but somehow... it did, when it is completely missing in the original photograph, he photoshopped that in, thus making a convincing 3 hour long video because... yet, you got it- he photoshop things to look like they matched.

[@philandrews2860]

I can see how the facial measurements could match up, but one thing that just doesn't seem to match up are the eyes. I don't see where he finds the eyes matching with the Maudsely drawing, for example. They are quite different. For me, it's both the eyes and cheekbones that don't match up. Other depictions of Joseph Smith seem to indicate fuller cheeks and higher cheekbones than seen in this newly discovered daguerrotype. Also, when I compare photos of a young Alexander Hale Smith (one of Joseph & Emma's sons) with the Maudsley profiles of Joseph Smith, I see a strong resemblance in the eyes of both men. This eye resemblance between Alexander and his father was also noted by the Smith family of that time period. I don't see this same eye resemblance with the man in the newly discovered daguerrotype. David Lindsley feels that it is more likely to be Hyrum Smith. He has done a fairly convincing 3 part video on youtube. Couldn't 2 brothers be expected to have similar facial measurements?

[@mandalyn212]

Another possibility to consider is Mads Madison. Father of Bertha Madison who was second wife of Joseph Smith III.

[@palimpalim5291]

The cheekbones that are very prominent in every painting, and the eye brows that are very distinct and bushy in every single painting but the man on the photo has almost none at all. Ears don't match either.

[@Debster279]

@@palimpalim5291 AMEN! lol

[@Debster279]

The Larsen daguerreotype is of a man who has curly hair, Joseph Smith III stated in his 1910 letter specifically, that his Dad did "NOT have curly hair", he was upset about this, and he also stated in 1910 the painting was done before his father died, and in 1879 (saying he was 36, he died at age 38). The eyebrows are thin as can possibly be, something also noted as NOT being so, many noted Joseph Smith as having "bushy" eyebrows, "definitely thick indeed", this man has almost NO EYEBROWS, the shape of the eyes is not correct and they are too small, the artwork of the skulls is from the measurements which were done with a straight ruler, and Anatomist who wrote BOOKS on anatomy Doctor Van de Graff stated in his 1995 analysis that the measurements were unreliable, but alas a sculptor didn't understand the reasons or have access to everything Van de Graff had and then a completely based on the measurements of the skull was a sketch of the skull created, but photoanthropometry was debunk in 2011, 2 years after Curtis' 2009 study of the skulls... using photoanthtometry. The Nose of the Larsen daguerreotype lines up as protruding at the line of his lower lash line, this is TOO LOW, Joseph's nose was large and protruded at his top portion of the orbital bone. The hairline does not match, Joseph had a receding hairline on the sides, seen in Maudsley's profile artwork, receded to his ears, Larsen's image shows a man who does not have a receding hairline on the sides- at all. The eye shape and alignment are level, Joseph Smith's eyes were NOT level, in the painting that WAS based on the daguerreotype by Victor Kress, donated to the Iowa Historical Society, as it was NOT done from life, his left eye is lower, Joseph Smith III commissioned this piece and spoke about it in his 1910 letter as being better than any Utah Artist's BECAUSE he had a daguerreotype of his father he used to help, "sustain the characteristic likeness of my father in the painting"- but he's not specifying which painting, having referred to the "authentic oil painting" which he noted in 1879 was done when his father was 36, by an artist from "new york" David Roger's was from New York, Curtis has no viable candidate for the painting the original oil painting, as he knows William Major was NOT from New York and was NOT able to paint Joseph but is the ONLY EVER mentioned artist as possibly painting it, very later source almost mid 20th century and too vague, it was done by David Roger's from Life.

[@lindamartinez7006]

I’m so laughing when you try to describe to us how Joseph Smith looked . And that his nose was larger. Sorry but no paintings count . No none . All the artists in that day sucked . They all paint him different . They all have no talent . And I totally believe Emma she. She’d said that this’d paintings were an embarrassment and did not even look like him . However his son did say a real picture was taken of him . We have used it for a long time . A painting was done off the actual picture . Look it up or google . I will look . This is not Joseph Smith . But there is a real picture of him .

[@rainyapril178]

Deb, I notice you always start off by saying that the man in the daguerreotype has curly hair. I disagree. It is "curled" on the ends, but not naturally curly all the way to the roots. This was achieved by wetting the hair, maybe using a little pomade, and forming it around a finger, then left to dry that way. My grandma (born 1915 in Plymouth Hancock County IL) taught me that trick. So this was a well known technique from the olden days. Caucasian people have some natural wave to their hair, but naturally curly is rather rare, and never looks like what people imagine it to look like. I speak from personal experience here, fighting the frizzy blues all summer long. It does not have a pattern, such as permed hair or set hair does. Same with Bertha Madison. Those curls have been "set", probably on rags, not at all natural. Have you asked to see a picture of Mads Madison? The John Whitmer journal article on this daguerreotype says that Mads was ruled out based on an actual photo of him that has been located. I would be interested in seeing that as well. I follow your videos and find this subject fascinating, being a lifelong resident of the historical area of Hancock County IL. Since you have comments turned off, I am responding to you here about the misconception of what "curly" hair actually looks like. Others, I have noticed, have responded about the eyebrows. They appear to me to be sun-bleached, but full thickness.

[@rainyapril178]

As an addendum to this, regarding Bertha Madison Smith: There is another photo of her on the Community of Christ Historic Sites Foundation KZbin channel, entitled "Hidden Things Shall Come to Light: The Visual Image of Joseph Smith, Jr." It is @ the 19:30 minute mark, depicting Bertha wearing a locket. And another photo of her, the same Community of Christ channel, entitled "Be of Good Comfort: Emmeline, Bertha, and Ada" with Wendy Eaton, @25:15. It is quite obvious from these varying hairstyles that Bertha used hairpieces and that none of these three photos of her depict her actual hair. The one with the locket shows her hair pulled straight back with a "switch" which is attached by a comb. The better known curled hair switch is attached by the braided head band.

[@Debster279]

@@rainyapril178 " The picture represents a curly-headed man, but my father’s hair was not curly." Joseph Smith III letter to the Salt Lake Tribune, March 1910. Why would Joseph Smith III be critical of a painting with barely wavy hair by Ramsay, if he was using the daguerreotype of his father with curly hair to make a whole new painting? Your description of the hair only being curly at the ends can apply to the forward facing painting, which doesn't match artwork earlier in 1842, or any other artistic depiction of Joseph Smith at all.

[@Debster279]

@@lindamartinez7006 It's condescending to tell people you are laughing at their comments, let's try to be a nicer than that. I am happy I turned off notifications for comments, I simply want to share my opinions, if you don't agree explain yourself, however I am well aware that Joseph said it was a pretty good painting but looked nothing like a prophet of the Lord an that he looked like a silly boy.

[@dfausti66]

Curious, here I thought the proposed picture of Joseph Smith Jr was that of John Portineus Greene who served as the Nauvoo City Marshall and the last to bless Sister Emma after Joseph and Hyrum's martyrdom. John also has no known photo, but this picture looks a lot like John's eldest son Evan Melbourne Greene. I guess we will never know!

[@Debster279]

Oh boy, found one image of that guy, eye shape is quite different and ages are not right. We will know soon enough.

[@JerkerSvensson-c1d]

Hi. I think this is most interesting. But I am, by nature, sceptical. I have a few things that bothers me. I have always felt that pictures we use in the church is a beautified version of JS. These pictures has formed our understanding of how he looked like. It looks to me that they are constructed from the death mask. Firstly, I once read something about that the death mask could be somebody elses, mixed up with a prominent person in the area. How sure are we the death mask is JS? Secondly, if the death mask is JS, how come the shape of the eyes in the death mask is quit different from the photo. The eyes in the mask has no corners as the eyes of the photo. Look forward to more about this!!

[@marlenegallacher7178]

My first impression when viewing the photograph was emotional to me. The words flowed out of me “There you are Joseph. There you are”. I was quite overwhelmed. Tears of gratitude streaming down my face.

[@sdb816]

It’s not him. Look at the death mask.

[@samuelmoon3051]

Incredible!

[@Wonderboywonderings]

I've never heard of Andrew Ehat. I'm a 46 years old, lifetime member, avid church history student. I don't know everything, not even close. But if he's indeed the world's leading Joseph Smith scholar, we have to do better. I feel like I should have heard of the "world's leading scholar" by now. 🧐

[@firecloud77]

I don't see it. The cheek bones and the nose of the death mask are far more prominent than the daguerreotype.

[@avy8907]

Absolutely love this!!! I love putting faces to the name and stories. His countenance is unmistakable! Love this photo! 💕

[@sdb816]

Hoffman was skilled at forgeries. How easy would it be to forge a daguerreotype? Has anyone considered that? Making daguerreotypes today to resemble the original thing? Wouldn’t it be easy to take from the painting and other sources, and then create the daguerreotype with those details…that’s why there are correlations. Pretty sure you can find a tutorial on how to make a daguerreotype online. Maybe they should be questioning whether the photo is in fact from the 1800s.

[@acurtweber]

It seems quite impossible for the Larsen daguerreotype to be a Hoffman forgery as it appears to have been used to paint the famous oil portrait of Joseph sometime after his death and before the winter of 1874-1875.

[@sdb816]

@@acurtweber I’m not saying Hoffman did it…I’m just stating that these types of things can be done by skilled conmen…

[@Debster279]

@@sdb816 The Larsen Daguerrotype is not a forgery, as it doesn't not resemble the death mask well enough at all. True superimpositions should be tried by EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO THINKS THIS IS HIM, all you do is go into photoshop, take the best stock photo on google, silverpicent has a fantastic one done back when the mask was straight vertical so it's lacking in camera distortion and is level, in photostop you click embed- select the death mask, go to layers and select opacity and put it at 50% and resize it to the same dimensions of the Larsen daguerreotype, THEN stare at it for four days and realize... it's not a match.. at all... and then look at Curtis Weber's "morphological comparisons" and... you might just see something is a little off.

[@lucybates8078]

in examining and comparing the features of the death mask, this image look more like Hyrum Smith.

[@Debster279]

Nope, please... please... see Hyrum's painting from Life, totally different, no likeness, he had sunken in eyes in all artwork, this man does not and he had a bigger and longer nose than Joseph, and this guy has a tiny nose- length wise, no bump, tip height totally different, and he looks short, very short (see the length between the shoulders, if it's shorter it's a shorter man- usually, and Joseph and Hyrum weren't short), but it depends if you think 5'11 is short. Look at Oliver Cowdery at 5'5'.... he was very short and the length from shoulder to shoulder is shorter in comparison to his face... this locket is of a short man!

[@aaronhinton92]

Please just make the audio consistent between the left and right speakers. This is so hard to listen to.

[@RyanMercer]

Sounds fine?

[@aaronhinton92]

@@RyanMercer No, it doesn't. The audio mix isn't the same on the left and right channels. It's louder on the left for some of the voices and louder on the right for other voices. It's improperly mixed and sounds horrible.

[@fightingfortruth9806]

This is Hyrum Smith. No doubt in my mind.

[@cutebusdriverchick]

What makes you say that? Sincerely asking.

[@shoup_group]

Hyrum’s skull doesn’t match.

[@fightingfortruth9806]

Watch the 3 part analysis by David Lindsley.

[@PapaKryptoss]

I don't know

[@brandondherin2558]

He’s got a 3 hour video about this if you want more information

[@TvorCrl]

Really interested in seeing that photo enhanced or using ai to create a lifelike modern reproduction of the photo.

[@jeraldramos3014]

My first thought was his Father, bcos two of them are both Joseph Smith.

[@bradjennings8714]

I felt the Holy Spirit of truth hundreds of times when I studied the life of Joseph Smith. God builds his church on revelation. The Spirit doesn't accompany this photo. I believe it's false.

[@bradjennings8714]

I can only go by what I believe vs what anyone else believes. That attitude has served me well. My life was, is and hopefully will always be amazing.

[@bradjennings8714]

Men including you and I say and do things that are far from perfect. I know that so testimony destroying mistakes from all eras of history do not influence what God has told me is true. I will never deny that. Ever!

[@HopeinAllThings82]

Doctors Teghan Lucas and Maciej Henneberg don't think this is Joseph Smith, and they know this... January Issue of the Anthropological Review, page three states there is no apparent likeness, at all, and I know they have bluntly told me it's not him, more "experts" in Europe said it's not him, and forensic scientists in another country, I cannot divulge are trying to get a huge study on all the images done soon, but like you, I Spiritually knew before I logically knew ;) He's much kinder looking and handsomer than this shorter, curly haired Norwegian guy. Curtis is gearing up to go on full attack on Teghan and Maciej btw... he already tried, but keeps using photo-anthropometry logic to ignore photo distortion in other alleged images, uses my made up for FUN technique and claims it's commonly used, yet, the sketch superimposition shows the eyes are WAY too small and way closer together, you don't expert things to morph perfectly, but really- it should still be at least a close match and this ain't at all, thin nose like 1970s superman, no bushy eyebrows that is seen in artwork, death mask and in statements by his friends... the family just got super excited, and since a Smith descendant found it...

[@dinocollins720]

Fantastic video! Thank you!

[@SaintsUnscripted]

You're very welcome!

[@saldomino1639]

Wow gray stuff thanks !

[@jamesbaldwin7676]

This is a case of the Emperor's new clothes... It doesn't matter how many scientific tests or forensic examinations of Joseph's skull are conducted. I'm not convinced that the picture is that of Joseph Smith.

[@nygraphs1]

NO WAY! Joseph's death mask is very good-looking. The guy in the pictures looks like a boxer from the 1920s

[@Debster279]

The Anthropological Review supports the possibility of a way better looking, kinder looking man than this guy, January 2023 Issue they state on pg 3- this locket image is not the Prophet Joseph.

[@jrblack78]

When I saw his eyes I knew it was him. You can see his soul. It is definitely Joseph Smith Jr.

[@russellricksbooks2579]

How do you know it's not Hyrum Smith? Could be?

[@KadMac25]

Agreed. This picture looks like Hyrum Smith to me.

[@latterdaycovenantliving]

He did extensive research on this there is a 3 hour video explaining why it is not Hyrum

[@KadMac25]

@@latterdaycovenantliving David Lindsley also has done research and explains why this photo is not Joseph but Hyrum. I recommend you check out his two videos here on KZbin.

[@prestonflatt]

Glad they found that photo.

[@Pocketkid2]

I gotta be honest, I have a really hard time accepting the photo as legitimate, even after hearing all the evidence. The lack of smile and the messy hair just doesn't trigger a positive reaction in my mind.

[@sapphirelily54]

Well…to be fair, no one smiled for photos in the beginning.

[@Pocketkid2]

@@sapphirelily54 Even though the proportions match, I just can't see the likeness between the purported photo and the legitimate paintings/deathmask

[@Laguero]

​@sapphirelily54 True. Exposure times were at least ten minutes. That would be a long time to hold a smile!

[@HopeinAllThings82]

@@Pocketkid2 Amen, it's not him, pg3 of the anthropological review's January issue says this just isn't a match, but another more handsome man is ;)

[@aprilpark7223]

This guy looks 50. He looks way to old to have been Joseph .

[@RyanMercer]

Visit rural America, or just some go talk to some blue collar folks that work outside. The sun is a harsh mistress, so is hard labor.

[@palimpalim5291]

@@RyanMercer The death mask was made at the very end of his life and it looks way younger than this picture.

[@RyanMercer]

@@palimpalim5291 death masks are mayd laying down.

[@HopeinAllThings82]

@@RyanMercer His real picture shows aging, but keep in mind he wore a hat all the time, they all did, they knew the sun meant possible death if they were overexposed, so huge hats... they thought Orson Pratt was suicidal partly because he wasn't wearing a hat, it was like not wearing a seat belt, you never left home without your large hat! BY aged 50 looked like this man, he certainly looks 50 years old and numerous scientists have sought permissions to write about this and, a soft rejection was had this January in the Anthropological review, pg. 3- top right corner ;)

[@HopeinAllThings82]

@@palimpalim5291 The Real Likely Photograph of Joseph Smith in the Anthropological Review is just better looking, more scarred, matches so many unique injuries this man is totally missing...

[@BettyHorn]

It's not Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith was balding. It could be Hyrum, but not Joseph.

[@janaprocella8268]

Relatives. Can. Resemble. Eachother..

[@crgracia1998]

Send it to the Church historical department. They should be able to give some insight.

[@acurtweber]

The Church History Department does not have any individuals on staff qualified to analyze the forensic evidence. They can and have spoken to the documented provenance of the daguerreotype, abs they are correct to state that we do not know anything of the daguerreotype's history before 1992.

[@Debster279]

I heard there was already a "meeting" with people from the Church History department with Curtis where they all said this was not Joseph Smith, with an expert in anthropometry and sculpting, and two sets of forensic anthropologists have been studying this, one published set published a short conclusion (no apparent likeness was found to Joseph Smith, see the January Issue of the Anthropological Review), that I know- personally, they just need Daniel Larsen's permission to write AND publish publicly a report, if he pays for one- he could burn if it hates it... there were other experts that already found the same negative conclusions, some were quick analysis that cannot be used as permission wasn't granted or paid for- but it happened (making six experts total that I know of, 4 concluded this was not Joseph Smith), the last two are seeking to do something bigger than them all, cannot say anything more, but they want to write and get published, I know that, and another was found in the January Issue of the Anthropological Review, where a Morphological comparison was done.

[@grorc]

How is this a "recent picture"? Its been around for years... it was debunked quite a while ago.

[@ThoseOneGuysInc]

It’s only from 2020 and I don’t think anyone ran any stories on it till last year.

[@acurtweber]

The public announcement of the Larsen daguerreotype was made on July 21, 2022. The only people who have attempted to debunk the image, as far as I am aware, are myself (Curtis Weber), David Lindsley, and Debi Hatfield (with her two co-authors who are forensic anthropologists). The extent and nature of the evidence I've uncovered persuades me that this is an authentic image of Joseph Smith, while Lindsley believes it is Hyrum and Hatfield does not believe it is either Hyrum or Joseph. I've had at least four forensic anthropologists review my work rather thoroughly, and three of them agree with my findings. In going to collaborate with them and others to bring the best scholarship forward, even when there is inconclusive or contradictory evidence or conclusions.

[@roberthall9452]

​@acurtweber I look forward to more research. After watching the 3 hour video elsewhere, I'm utterly convinced the Larsen daguerreotype IS IT.

[@garycrosby8562]

@@acurtweberSo, per your response, we’ve really got three (3) yeas and three (3) nays by experts. This is sooo not conclusive. This just isn’t good enough for anyone to think one way or another. Thus, I’m going back to the painting as being the most accurate of all and is the most accepted as well. No more pushing this narrative as the picture of Joseph even though fun to think about.

[@mellasone]

Beautiful discussion, thank you

[@deanbunnell4822]

I don't believe it matters but I don't believe that is. Joseph Smith, that's one of his kids so who really cares? I love the prophet Joseph junior and I we have the death mask. What else do we need and we will see Him again and so I can wait until then, thank you.

[@8dreamersfarm]

He looks worn and tough, I’d imagine that would be Joseph.

[@palimpalim5291]

Every one looked worn and tough in those days.

[@Johnboynid]

What’s with the phones in front of you both?

[@RyanMercer]

They had their notes of what questions they wanted to ask him, Curtis stated so elsewhere in the comments.

[@BravyM9]

Is this image haunting any one other than me-in a good but overwhelming way?

[@Debster279]

You should sleep at night know two experts in England concluded this was not him, Two forensic scientists put their names on a scientific paper in the Anthropological Review- saying this was not Joseph Smith the Prophet, and Dee Jay Bawden the man whom Curtis keeps referencing says it is not Joseph, saying the hair is too curly (this is in Joseph Smith III infamous 1910 Letter to the Salt Tribune that his Father did NOT have curly hair), nose bridge is too wide and I say the bump is too low at the lower last line, he also notes many other things publicly. That is four experts saying this is not Joseph Smith, and more are working on studying it, but use the same techniques as used in the Anthropological Review's January issue about a better matching image.

[@romdos11]

They completely omitted evidence of a LeForte fracture that Joseph had when he fell out of the window so the death mask wouldn't match up with his real face anyway. The daguerrotype doesn't even resemble any of the drawings, paintings, etc. I agree with the person that said it looks more like Hyrum

[@idahousarmymomma9120]

Is a copy of this photo available for purchase?

[@HopeinAllThings82]

Yep! and you can tape the name Mads Madison on it after you purchase it.

[@TroySchoonover]

I've seen other analyses, and I think the conclusions it is Hyrum Smith is more compelling.

[@Debster279]

Oh, please see the forward facing painting of Hyrum Smith his nose is super long, the tip of the nose is much longer than this man's, and his eyes are sunken in very deeply... this man is short too... papers are being written, PRAY they are allowed permission to publish them publicly, if paid out they can hide and or burn it.

[@MattSpringer4]

My aunt has the Joseph smith daguerreotype that David Lindsay did an analysis on. I’m dead serious, my Aunt is Kim Marshall. I can link her page if you guys want

[@lindamartinez7006]

Link it . Who does she think it is ?

[@MattSpringer4]

Blogspot

[@MattSpringer4]

The photo talked about in the video is 100% Hyrum Smith, not Joseph

[@fightingfortruth9806]

Everyone should go see the analysis of this photo by David Lindsley.

[@goodtoGoNow1956]

I think its Hyrum.

[@sandrajohnson5624]

haha I married a direct desendent of joseph smith , he probably looks like him and my son , there very good looking

[@GuerreroSUD]

It seems obvious to me that it is Hyrum, not Joseph

[@Ily779]

I was surprised by just how attractive he is.

[@rainyapril178]

It seems very superficial, and I hate to admit it, but that is why I DO believe this to be Joseph Smith. Human nature being what it is, this daguerreotype is by far the most attractive depiction of Joseph Smith I have ever seen. People of both sexes were for some reason attracted to him - charisma - and it starts with physical attractiveness. Now, this is pure speculation on my part, of course - but is it possible that there was toward the end of the 20th century, a collective memory of what a charismatic preacher looked like? Who does this man look like? Google search Burt Lancaster as Elmer Gantry images. Elmer Gantry is a 1960 American drama film about a confidence man and a female evangelist selling religion to small-town America. The film is based on the 1927 novel of the same name by Sinclair Lewis, and stars Burt Lancaster. Somehow deep in our heart, don't we all know what this character must look like? At the very least, it shows that we all can "see a resemblance" to what our preconceived notions about such a man are. Just a personal observation for what its worth.

[@davidsarkar6423]

So sad, may God save these mormon people.

[@RyanMercer]

He did save us, when he sent Jesus Christ to die for our sins. :)

[@CertainCharism]

​@@RyanMercer Sorry to inform you my friend but you/Mormons were never saved. The guys in this video are discussing about Joseph Smith in such a manner and in awe as if Joseph Smith is Jesus Christ. Here are few questions for you: 1. I'm really disappointed that the Mormons don't consider me as the prophet of God, why don't you all consider me as the prophet of God ? 2. I'm really disappointed that the Mormons don't believe in Scripture and by Scripture I mean the divine revelations I got from the angel Certosis in the year 2021, which I then wrote down and that book is named as the book of Certoson. Why don't you all read my book the book of Certoson as Scripture ? 3. I'm really disappointed by the fact that you Mormons don't see the divine importance to read the Bible side by side on an equal level of reverence and value side by side with the book that I wrote that is the book of Certoson. Why don't you Mormons read the Bible along with the book of Certoson ? 4. According to the book of Certoson, before the creation of this world there were many children of God in heaven, but when satan caused the revolt against God, then those who rooted for God were made to be white people in this world, and those who rooted for satan were made to be demons, and those who remained neutral about it were made to be Asians in this world. So why don't you believe in this doctrine from the book of Certoson that people are made to be born as Asians and not white people because they didn't root for God when they were in heaven ? 5. Finally, I'm really disappointed that you all have not yet converted to the only real religion that is Certosonism. When will you all convert to Certosonism and become Certosons ? You are not saved because you're not a Certoson. The future generations to come should all follow the only true religion of Certosonism and they all should strive to be devout Certosons and they should preach and spread the message to the whole world and evangelise and tell people about the Gospel AND about me, the prophet of God and show others the only true way that is Certosonism. There will be many Churches in the future and all Certosons should go to that Church, the only true Church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latest-Day Saints. And also they should make a video about me oohing and ahhing about me, keeping my legacy alive because without me people would have been in hell. Without me the Bible alone could do nothing because the Bible alone in itself is insufficient. Without me Jesus Christ could do nothing. That's why Jesus Christ had to send a guy like me to this world to save you all !

[@clarkkent3730]

*Mormons say that Jesus makes up the difference after all that YOU can do in your own strength! that is blasphemy! the true Jesus Christ said; "apart from me you can do NOTHING"....John chapter 15*

[@garycrosby8562]

Thank you for your “super” insights. So informative.

[@CrimsonArchon]

This is where we need a seer to be a seer and say yes this is thus sayeth the lord or no this is this specific person thus sayeth the lord

[@TP-om8of]

Fantastic old photo. Is that a salamander on his shoulder?

[@MissJanina1]

My first thought upon seeing the picture was that it looked exactly like Hyrum's death mask.

[@Brother_rick]

That photo is so obviously Hyrum but they want it to be Joseph

[@44hawk28]

That photo is Hyrum Smith and it is listed in his journals because he was the one that was available to take the photo I don't remember the exact date. But that is a photo of Hyrum Smith. Considering we actually have photos of Hirams skull and Joseph Smith's skull, only Hirams skull fits that face shape. It's also how we know that somebody inside the room shot Hiram underneath the chin and the bullet exited the side of his nose. Because if you've been shot in the nose by a musket, most of his head would have been all over that room! This is the first time I have ever seen anyone scale the death mask Patrick Joseph Smith. When we got all of the actual skulls, it doesn't seem to batch, because we know that the roof of the palate and the front teeth were blown out of Hiram's face when John Taylor shot him from underneath his chin. If you want to argue with me about that, I've been studying gunfights for a long time and nobody shot him from outside the room.

[@Debster279]

Positive it is no, go go the Joseph Smith Papers and look at Hyrum Smith's bio, there is a painting from LIFE, amazingly well done, way better than Rogers... and his nose is HUGE, way bigger than this man's, Hyrum's tip of his nose has a lower tip height, making it 100% not this man, and both Joseph Smith and Hyrum had a longer nose than this man. This is somehow likely related to Bertha the 2nd wife of JS III.

[@vocalysemusicworks]

I believe it is a Smith, but I do believe there is things supporting this being either Joseph OR Hyrum.

[@vocalysemusicworks]

As for the "hard life", I am not as sympathetic, as he brought a lot upon himself, though it was for reasons he understood.

[@Debster279]

Two sets of forensic anthropologists have studied this image, one published a short statement in a thorough review of a better likeness found in a CDV copied from a daguerreotype- in the Anthropological Review, the other set are seeking permissions, if they pay for just a report- it may never see the light of day, but if they give permission for a public scientific paper to be published... well... let's pray for that...

[@binmyrtmind]

The ear lobes are different in painting and the photo

[@acurtweber]

The shape, scale, and relative spacing of the ears in the oil portrait of Joseph once owned by Emma perfectly match the shape, scale, and relative spacing of the spacing of Frederick G. W. Smith's ears as seen in two of the three known photos of him (his ears aren't visible in his circa 1855 daguerreotype).

[@strawberryme08]

I don’t feel like it’s him but maybe his brother

[@HopeinAllThings82]

There is a forward facing painting of Hyrum Smith on the Joseph Smith papers, his nose was large, the tip of the nose longer, but for sure this is not Joseph Smith.

[@jennifferwalton3345]

I saw another one that says tbis is Hyrum. Paintings Ive seen of Hyrum looks like this.

[@mikelangley3919]

Its Hyrum. Joseph had a pecked nose and his lips were more fuller. Hyrum had the thinner lips.....Just saying

[@acurtweber]

You can see the comparison of the mouth in the daguerreotype to both Joseph's and Hyrum's mask in my 3 hour interview. You are 100% correct that Hyrum had thinner lips. However, you are mistaken about the lips in the daguerreotype matching Hyrum's lips. They match Joseph's much better. And Hyrum's nose is taller, wider at the alae, and more pointed at the tip than the nose of the man in the daguerreotype. Oddly, however, the man's nose matches quite precisely the nose height, width, nostril shape, and alae shape of the nose in Joseph's mask. Hrmmmm. 🤔

[@michaelparks5669]

could be of a brother of Joseph.

[@PresidentBrighamYoung]

I still don't think its Joseph, but that's just me.

[@Debster279]

There have been many experts saying the same, page 3 top right column two forensic scientists wrote a paper published in the anthropological Review about the face of Joseph Smith, using morphological comparison, Anyone using photoanthropometry is using an outdated and inaccurate technique (and many have the attention of the masses who only learned this technique), this blatantly stated to be outdated, and even then the dimension just do not come close to lining up. So many other experts have also concluded this and as Curtis implies- forensic anthropologist are at least looking for permission to analyze this image, I just know permission has to be granted for that to have been done, I know four real experts who attempted permission... and there are more I am hoping got permissions... but ... they can also PAY for a report... and do whatever they want, they could SIT ON IT, they could burn it... and no one would know, as they paid for it...

[@sdb816]

NOT him.

[@shireecox122]

I’m so glad it’s JS. I thought it was him when I first saw it.