Why Hadestown is the Most Brilliant Musical Ever

[@arc291]

This was one of the best youtube videos I have ever seen. And I've seen shrek retold.

[@1chromehearts]

first reply on pinned hey

[@DoodleZoo]

Roman IsGod cool

[@Mr_Mimestamp]

thirst reply on pinned hey wait

[@DoodleZoo]

Nathan L I’m a girl simp now

[@Lacie9]

Shrek retold is truly a masterpiece

[@evastahl]

I feel like Orpheus turning around to look behind represents human error. It's not that he didn't have faith that Eurydice was there, but he was convinced that he was tricked.

[@kirstyfairly4371]

Evamakesart-If I remember right Hades did taunt Orpheus by tellling him how Eurydice had chosen to leave him & go to Hadestown, that caused him to fear that if she could choose to leave him once she could do it again & he turns around so there was definitely a part of him that had begun to doubt her love for him.

[@Catchandelier22]

I always felt that Orpheus turning to look at Eurydice was an echo of his love for her

[@cannibalisticrequiem]

@@kirstyfairly4371 It was mainly the Muses who put the idea in Orpheus's head. They're represented as being the inner voices of certain characters, mainly Eurydice. The song "Chips Are Down" is them convincing Eurydice to die ("lie down forever") and go with Hades to a place where she will never have to worry about the cold or hunger. "Doubt Comes In" is the Muses taunting Orpheus that Eurydice isn't actually following him and abandoned him long ago. There's a reprise of "Chips Are Down" where the Muses taunt Hades saying that if he just allows Orpheus and Eurydice to leave, there will be a slight uprising with his workers, that they won't take him seriously and consider him "soft". Their role is to be that negging inner voice that tells you you're not good enough, that people will always abandon you and you have to look out for yourself over everyone, that you have to keep up this hard exterior otherwise people will think you're "weak" and walk all over you and take advantage of you. It's interesting because the Muses seem to focus on the characters that are the most insecure in the show (Hades, Eurydice, and Orpheus). They are almost never shown directly interacting with Persephone or Hermes, almost as if they know they can't say or do anything to manipulate them because both Persephone and Hermes are pretty confident characters and are not going to fall to doubt as easily as Orpheus, Hades, and Eurydice.

[@rescatooor]

@@cannibalisticrequiem They're fates, not muses. They're goddesses as well, hence why they have more power over mortals than gods. If you want to believe that they have any power at all, apart from seeing what will happen. They technically just give a voice to those doubts and in Hades' case they give advice. If one had to find a villain in this story, it would be the three fates. But Orpheus' backstory of being a son of a muse and having been abandoned by his mother is clearly something that influences his behaviour about retrieving Eurydice from the underworld (his determination not to abandon her like he was once abandoned, hence why he is not like anyone of those players Eurydice has met before) as well as his shock and horror at finding out that she too left him and might do so again. In Hadestown, unlike the myth, he genuinely doubts Eurydice and has real reason to. It fits his character damn well.

[@tylerjones7592]

@@rescatooor is ex k n

[@gretahsieh3338]

Schlaff: *makes this video* Theater kids: MY TIME HAS COME

[@Exarian]

I've never met a theater kid in my life because my school had no non-football (or volleyball for the girls) extracurriculars.

[@racctti]

@@Exarian hi, you've met one now

[@moustachemanplayz7098]

MY TIME TO SHINE AS A STAR

[@wjjekehdjs]

hAhhahHhhAaAaa

[@merp6491]

IM NOT A THEATER KID BUT IM ADDICTED TO MUSICALS SO AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

[@davitheeclown]

I so greatly wish that they had kept the original "ending" lines from when the musical was off-Broadway. In that version, when Orpheus turns around and sees Eurydice she says to him "You're early," and he replies "I missed you." The exact words exchanged between Persephone and Hades when he came to pick her up during Way Down Hadestown. I sobbed like a baby.

[@pugglesshooba4442]

Where can we posibly find a version of that song i NEED to hear it ;-;

[@melissagola3786]

Oooh I like that. That's like the only version of the myth that I can really understand I.e. Orpheus steps in the light and turns back to see Eurydice but he's too early, she's in darkness. I think that combined with the doubt and fear we get for Orpheus in this kinda makes it a bit more understandable that he turns (plus, in my head, the journey is long as fuck so it's not just 20 steps and out)

[@Hakajin]

Kinda disagree. I mean, I like that; I'm a terribly literary person and love that kind of parallel. But... The way they say each others' names is so raw and touching! It's like how the lyrics of the musical were originally more complicated and poetic, but if Orpheus is earnest and naive... The way he's portrayed as straightforward and honest is at odds with that more literary style.

[@abiteofchalk]

Don't SAY THAT! NOW IM EVEN MORE SAD ABOUT THIS

[@MadameDinoLady]

Stop stOP STOP IT RIGHT NOW 😭😭😭😭

[@clary2659]

we need a proshot i cant stand the low quality bootleg anymore

[@valeale8851]

Do you have the link??

[@axolotlking1072]

@@valeale8851 see above

[@valeale8851]

@@axolotlking1072 thanksssss

[@juliasings6131]

@Adrian ok Theres one under two names: 'you had one job (hadestown)' and 'the tragedy of orpheus and eurydice explained ft. Hadestown obc' Theres a different one under the name 'orpheus and eurydice but with music' And a third one that I just found under the name 'hades has a town' The lyrics arent always the same (especially on that last one, I've only made it to epic I and it's already crazyyy different), but still, there you go, those are the ones I've found

[@juliasings6131]

@Adrian oh theres also '1920s greek mythology slime tutorial'

[@lianaflores]

schafrillaaalalalalalalas

[@euphoria7372]

Omg your hadestown mix was literally one of the first videos I saw of you!

[@zfrenchtoast]

LIANA FLORES OH MY GOODNESS

[@baileyjoy7866]

One thing I love about this show is how every time Orpheus sings the lalala thing, the ensemble joins in, but in Doubt Comes In, when he sings it, no one repeats and they back up Eurydice's part instead, flipping everything and making Orpheus seem even more alone

[@ruzspruce9984]

please don't make me cry okay

[@TheTradge]

I love this detail, I only noticed it on the fourth or fifth listening of the soundtrack, and it really gives that scene an extra layer of unease.

[@ZPrince]

oh my god and then how him and the fates both sing the last “where is she? where is she now?” lyrics,,, AHHHHHHHHH 😭😭😭

[@m0vieduerin042]

Schaff: Gonna talk theatre Theatre Geeks: You had me at Theatre

[@jackroark4349]

More specifically theatre Greeks

[@itspandasaur]

YES

[@awesomeblb3407]

Orpheus looking behind him is the biggest “Bruh” moment ever

[@a-s-greig]

You could say that... kzbin.info/www/bejne/iWiQpXiQituXi9k

[@fish3977]

greek myths really get fucky but I honestly think this is one of the greatest adaptations I've seen of any

[@carlsoll]

Yeah, you could say he doesn’t trust the devil.

[@jordkirstein2418]

IT WAS ONLY ONE METRE LEFT HJFKKYTGH

[@AbigailThinks]

I literally gasped SO hard in the theater when he turned around. I was like YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING ME

[@dumpsterhag]

Ok the fact that in Flowers, the only thing Eurydice remembers about Orpheus is that he "turned his face to mine, and then I turned away into the shade" is just the most painful, blatant bit of foreshadowing I've ever heard. That's literally what happens. He turns to face her, and she has to go back into the shade of the underworld.

[@melissagola3786]

😢😢😢😢 I didn't realise that.

[@rafaelaveralugo7626]

Didn't even catch that. Dang

[@emilyharasin4209]

Not to mention Eva noblezada’s voice is pure bliss and she’s a queen

[@genevieveowusu885]

Exactly.I heard she is going to be in an upcoming film called Yellow Rose.

[@stellapark4579]

@@genevieveowusu885 I got to watch yellow rose and it was incredible, evas acting was so beautiful and her voice sounds good in any genre. Only complaint is thag Lea Salonga was barely in it and the ending was pretty abrupt

[@genevieveowusu885]

@@stellapark4579 Hmm. Well, don't spoil, please - I want to watch it online.

[@stellapark4579]

@@genevieveowusu885 of course! Idk it will be available but it’s definitely worth the watch!

[@genevieveowusu885]

@@stellapark4579 Great, if only the film didn't go down in history as one of the most obscure films you ever be released. (Well, not really, but you know.)

[@theelvencyclops1089]

A few things I love about Hadestown that I’d like to add: 1) There is a reason behind Orpheus losing Eurydice. At the beginning of the show all Orpheus can see is how the world could be, he's blind to its harsh realities and it contributes to Eurydice's death. As the story progresses he grows more and more pessimistic and by the end he can only see the gritty reality of the world around him and doesn't trust Euridyce to follow him after everything that went down. He went 180° in the other direction (literally and philosophicaly) but it had the same effect on him. An excess of either optimism or pessimism can and will blind you to reality, its only when you strike a healthy balance between the two that you can make the world a better place. This is the lesson I took away from Hadestown. 2) Hermes is the perfect choice for a deific narrator in part because he’s a storyteller in the mythology. In the myth of Io, he lulls Argus to sleep with a long, boring story about the invention of the panpipes. So for Hermes to be telling us the story of Orpheus and Euridice is pretty appropriate. 3)The ways Chris Sullivan and Andre De Shields portray Hermes each have mythological merit. depending on whether you view him from a mortal’s or a god’s perspective. If you view Hermes from a god’s perspective you get Sullivan’s Hermes, one that’s young, exuberant, and mischievous. Sullivan’s Hermes leans more into his non-Cthonic traits. The god of thieves, liars, travelers, and herdsman, the musician who invented the lyre (the instrument Orpheus plays) when he was literally a few hours old. If you look at Hermes from a mortal’s perspective, you get De Sheilds’ Hermes. Compared to a mortal Hermes is impossibly old, and De Shields’ Hermes leans more into his Cthonic traits. In the mythology Hermes was one of two gods that lead the souls of the dead to the river Styx, the other being Thanatos. De Sheilds’ Hermes still has some fun-loving, mischievous tones, but they’re not as pronounced and he’s not as loud as Sullivan’s Hermes. He’s calmer, more collected, and seems wiser. And he’s more of a guide to Orpheus, “I took him underneath my wing,” Remember. And don’t forget the Soliloquy Hermes has during ‘Wait for me II’. I know both portrayals of Hermes have this, but Sullivan’s felt more like a break in character, but it didn’t for De Sheilds’ Hermes. 4) Hades can be kind of a softie in the mythology and I like that Hadestown portrayed this side of him instead of him just being greek Satan. He absolutely adores his wife. His first line in the entire musical is him saying “I missed you” to Persephone, and this comes after all the other characters talk about how big and mean he is. When he first brought Persephone to the underworld he showered her with lavish gifts and pampered her like the goddess she is. And his three-headed dog Cerberus? There is etymological evidence that his name means spotted. Hades named Cerberus, the fearsome three-headed guard dog of the underworld, the ancient Greek equivalent of Spot. 5) Our Lady of the Underground is incredibly important to Persephone’s characterization and here’s why: Persephone was feared by the ancient greeks. She was a bringer of spring, yes, but also a bringer of famine, drought, and plague once she was angered. Mortals would pray to her and Hades to curse people. She was so feared that most mortals wouldn’t even say her name because they didn’t want to risk her wrath, instead, they’d use epithets to refer to her. Listen to ‘Our Lady of the Underground’ again. When she asks a tavern full of mortals what her name is they don’t respond with her actual name, they respond with epithets. ‘Our lady of the underground’, ‘our lady of ways’, ‘our lady of means’, ‘our lady of the upsidedown’. Throughout the entire show, the only mortals to call Persephone by her name were probably drunk or too excited to be afraid, during ‘Living it up on top’. Otherwise, the only people to say “Persephone” are characters with deific blood like Orpheus, (who is technically a demigod, not a mortal), Hades, Hermes, and Persephone herself. Despite her being mostly benevolent during the musical, most mortals would never call Persephone by her name, especially in the underworld where she is the literal queen, they wouldn’t dare. I could go on but then there’d be a full-length novel in the comment section. Thanks for coming to my TED-talk.

[@tinymxnticore]

GREAT analysis! ✨✨ Our Lady Underground is SO important for Persephone herself and the central themes of the show.

[@MercifulEmma]

Read Lore Olympus if you like the idea of Hades and Persephone falling in love.

[@sthirukk]

@@MercifulEmma yeah, it's a great webcomic, but I think you should mention some heavy topics it deals with. Content warning for those of you who don't know, lore Olympus involves rape. It's been a long time since I read it, so I don't know what other heavy topics it deals with. If you find yourself triggered by reading about rape, I wouldn't recommend it. It updates every Sunday on webtoons if anyone is interested.

[@asher-kylawood7160]

Bees?

[@oliviawang1550]

@@asher-kylawood7160 "our lady of means" is the lyric, I believe

[@liambenson]

Our Lady of the Underground is one of my favorites, because it touches on something so often neglected in musical theatre: the band. Never before have I seen a musical that takes explicit time to thank the other musicians who help to make this experience. Hadestown really is all about bringing people together. Also, chaotic wine aunt vibes all the way babey

[@kentrodrigoroble8822]

This. This!

[@orchidsarepretty1422]

I agree! Although SIX also kinda does this

[@liambenson]

@@orchidsarepretty1422 i feel like hadestown has invited more of this ideology into the musical theatre scene, and we'll probably see more musicals like it (i.e. SIX)

[@orchidsarepretty1422]

@@liambenson oh good point!

[@asmileisspecial]

Six does! But yes, I agree!

[@cheesecakelasagna]

Imagine one day when Hadestown performs its very last show and the ending is different. Closing the loop. I wanna be there to see it!

[@dylanchouinard6141]

OMFG YESSSSSS!

[@awafflefry7126]

That’s what I was thinking about like a random group of people just see a whole other ending

[@onceinsaratopia]

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I THOUGHT BY THE END OF THIS OMG

[@pooks333]

Had the same thought - we can hope! 🤞

[@GrainneMhaol]

If Dark taught us anything, you can't undo the knot.

[@silvercheetah92]

You had me, "Why Hadestown is the most brilliant musical ever."

[@SSMp315]

He speaks the fucking truth

[@mysticxjuice]

You need to ad the "At" bro ✌

[@razbuten]

I hope that one day they do a single performance where it ends happily.

[@ashnesslinguistics3570]

Another commenter mentioned what they might do for their last show to change the ending and, y'know, close the loop? I think this would be a very good way to do it, if it weren't for the way it goes against the original story and thus undermines the point of the tragedy (it was written long ago). It would have to be done correctly, but I do think it would make fans of the musical go _crazy_ if they gave it a happy ending to conclude the last show they ever did. I would love to see it!

[@PineappleLiar]

I’d be scared of people going completely feral over the tickets for the one good-ending of the play. Musicals are already a pretty limited media and adding that once-in-a-lifetime tinge to it seems... dangerous.

[@bellringer53]

@@PineappleLiar no they only show it once. They wouldnt advertise it or even hint at it. Everyone goes in to watch the show one last time, resigned to the ending but with that small spark of hope. Then Doubt Come In starts and, this is it the end. They couldn't do it just this one time. But then, they enter the light. And they made it this time

[@stellapark4579]

That would literally be so brilliant and I would cry endlessly

[@erinepperson435]

Imagine if they did it randomly and you show up to a show expecting a tragic ending and it ends happily

[@ananicholas9852]

Me, seeing the title of the video: Ah yes, I love watching my opinions being affirmed

[@nunabisness7191]

You’re God Damn Right

[@chapps.6891]

yeah, right?!

[@shmaptainshmericaa8709]

It is a CRIME that you didn’t mention THAT iconic part in Wait for Me reprise. If you know, you know.

[@camer4459]

There's so many iconic parts in the song lmao you can't just pick one

[@tofuchoobi929]

I'M COMING WAIT FOR MEEEE

[@jamms.mp9]

I feel this comment in my SOUL

[@star_str3m63]

chills

[@itamarolmert3549]

IT SOUNDS LIKE DRUMMING!

[@MorningDusk7734]

It took me until now to realize that this is the definition of a pyrrhic victory. Orpheus did succeed, in the end. He lost everything he loved, but he succeeded at his original goal. He wrote a song that brought the world back into tune, bringing back spring and fall. Most people forget that and think he just failed at the end, but no, he probably saved humanity by stopping the fight between Hades and Persephone.

[@manglesmusic]

Right!!

[@AtlasBlizzard]

Exactly! It's a tragic ending, but one that brings about good societal change. Orpheus personally lost, but the world gained because of what he did.

[@taylormonk4222]

Something to help you enjoy Lady of the Underground: Persephone is doing “the best she can” to not only replicate the celebratory feelings of the living world, but also giving the workers something in the way of memories. That’s why she’s not pedaling wine like in ‘Living it Up’; her wares in Hadestown are memories.

[@Nilpferdschaf]

It also comes right after an intermission in the stage play, which you don't get if you listen to the album on spotify. It works much better in that context, getting you back into the story after a break. When you listen to all the songs back to back it sticks out, because preserving the flow between songs didn't need to be considered originally

[@cass4774]

here's something that helped me enjoy it more: someone pointed out how it relates to the motif of "names" in the show. we know names arent a thing in hadestown bc hades treats names as something that hold power, in fact hades never calls anyone by their name in the show until after Epic III (instead he says boy, son, songbird, lover, my wife, etc.) but persephone doesnt believe in that, she calls everyone by their names, even when hades wont (see: Papers- Intro, How Long?, even a bit in Epic III) SO! in our lady of the underground, she's encouraging the folks of hadestown to say her name, but in the end she's the only one who will ik that its not the main message of the song, but it is an interesting comparison to how persephone's mindset is so different from the folks in hadestown, and hades himself. it may not be intentional, but its a cool thing to notice if you relisten to the show :)

[@sirensong1794]

@@cass4774 That might also be because in ancient greece, saying the god's names would often get their attention, sort of like a little prick that they may or may not pay attention to, thus people would try to avoid saying certain god's names. Especially ones associated with the Underworld like Hades and Persephone. Persephone especially because their harvest was dependent on her returning and unlike Hades who was all about death she was vital to that aspect of their life. Also as far as I can recall, the only mortal that says Persephone's name is Orpheus, and that's when he's giving thanks to her or singing in the Epics. That might be looking too far into it, but it's interesting nonetheless.

[@jeanettecabrera9368]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/mKStapV-ZtarfcU

[@bobbysyblik68]

Not gonna lie, Hadestown is the only reason I have survived school this far. Edit: 2 years later and I still listen to it religiously. Not as often as I used because there’s so many great musicals to mix in to my playlist

[@marina.gansey]

mood.

[@teddi5039]

Me too!

[@jeanettecabrera9368]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/mKStapV-ZtarfcU

[@manglesmusic]

Hadestown is one of the biggest reasons I managed to finish my Master's degree. I did my thesis hoping that it would turn out, knowing that if it didn't, at least I tried.

[@rose-ui6hk]

i love how even though you're upset and disappointed that orpheus turns around, you can't be mad at the writer or even orpheus himself because his actions are perfectly in character. one of the first things he does is immediately ask eurydice to marry him despite hermes telling him not to come on too strong. he's impulsive, he's driven by emotion, and he's not great at following directions. _of course_ he's gonna turn around.

[@Kyman102]

"It's a sad song... And we'll sing it again!"

[@sakura9959]

🥲

[@jglenbateman]

I was going to like your comment but then I saw that it had 666 likes!

[@rose-ui6hk]

@@jglenbateman it's at 667 now so go ahead lmao

[@HugoGojibiter]

I mean you can definitely be mad at a character even if the thing they do is in character

[@thegriffin2135]

I have a theory: the entire show is set in a time loop made by Hermes, in which the only characters who remember how the original Greek myths went are Hermes and the fates. Since Hermes has an emotional attachment to Orpheus, he constantly attempts to intervene with the Orpheus/Eurydice story, but the fates always find a way to shift the story back into the side of the original mythology.

[@roseyw4226]

ooooooh I like this theory a lot

[@coziclair]

EXACTLY. or, he's just an all knowing narrator who knows it's a myth and a play and a musical and that they're performing it over and over. i love the "again and again" aspect of the show, i have so many theories about it. road to hell II is my absolute favorite. so chilling.

[@jeanettecabrera9368]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/mKStapV-ZtarfcU

[@thatoneannoyingsoprano8066]

some people have already written a few fics about that concept!

[@faeb26]

I hope the final performance of Hadestown on Broadway changes to the way it could because it would break the cycle. I know it would never happen but I'd love for it to happen.

[@PigsSSBM]

Wow, it’s so interesting that Hades is portrayed ruthless “capitalist,” because in Greek myths he is the god of wealth among other things

[@natcorrea7421]

But how does he get the wealth?

[@undeadwolf5844]

@@natcorrea7421 He rules the ground under them. Thus having all the gems, oil, gold, and metal of the earth.

[@Hakajin]

Stands to reason, too, because precious metals and oil come from under the ground.

[@emailgmail6775]

@@natcorrea7421 listen to the playlist. It's there

[@angeliparraguirre7329]

i remember learning that from rick riordan

[@cutecat304]

I'm a bit sad he didn't like Our Lady of the Underground because it has one of the best character building moments for Persephone. When she's in Livin' up on Top she has so much fun letting everyone know that all the stuff that's happening is because of her. But in Our Lady of the Underground she can't even get anyone to say her name. Only recognizing her as her as the wife of Hades

[@Kiterpuss]

That was actually a reference to the real cults of Persephone. Mortals were never allowed to sing her name, they referred to her by the titles like "lady of the pomegranate." I think the song does a ton for her character because we see how she relates to the souls feeling trapped in hadestown and losing who they are.

[@akward4210]

I always thought that it did make sense why Orpheus turns around in the end of the musical. The whole show plays with the duality of "seeing the world as it is" and "seeing the world as it could be", with Eurydice on the former side, and Orpheus on the latter side. Orpheus, through his relationship with Eurydice, changes as a character by having no other choice but to see the "the way of the world as it is", not only by the inhabits of Hadestown, but also by Eurydice herself. At the beginning of the musical, she insists that Orpheus see the way she sees the world, because doing so has been her way of survival. She is proven right when Orpheus abandons her, and she feels she has no other choice but to go to Hadestown, which, at the time, she saw as a potential "way that the world could be" (bright, warm, no suffering). However, in the end, she finds out that Hadestown is a literal hell, and she begins to question her way of seeing things. Orpheus travels to Hadesown to rescue her with the same view of "what the world could be", but he then gets that view shattered when he learns that Eurydice chose to leave him for Hadestown, which, in turn, plants a seed in his mind that maybe world isn't what he thought it was. He perseveres by playing his song for Hades, which he does through his continued belief in his view of the world with his new found view of how the world actually is, but, that seed has still been implanted. In the end, no matter how optimistic the ending seems to be, Orpheus still abandoned Eurydice, and Eurydice still abandoned Orpheus. Now the lovers are opposite of each other from where they were at the beginning: Orpheus showed Eurydice how the world could be through his song to Hades, but in turn, Eurydice's insistence at the beginning that Orpheus "see the world as it is" has come back to haunt her, as now his whole experience in Hadestown has blinded him to only "see the world as it is", as highlighted in the song "Doubt Comes In", and that is why he turns around. It plays on the delicate balance of the two viewpoints, and that there really isn't a clear answer as to whether its better to "see the world as it is", or to "see the world as it could be". Being too optimistic about the world can lead to willful ignorance and fear of reality while suffering occurs, but choosing to only see reality suffocates any ounce of optimism and hope, which can lead to personal destruction. That is how Orpheus could have come so far and fail at the last second against all reason. Its a sad tale, its a tragedy, because that is sometimes how the world works.

[@SM-cs2my]

i really love this breakdown of the conflicting themes

[@lightworthy]

YES!! i never once felt shocked at him turning, and havent heard anyone else say that, and it’s because of how artfully they wrote in the shift in world views especially through the fates. that’s also part of why hades gave him that test, he was trying to see if a man so like himself could be better and more like orpheus who he saw as trusting and hopeful and kind and loving, but orpheus had turned out to be more like hades by that time and it poisoned him. it cursed him to have the same fate as hades did, in turn likely teaching hades that his relationship wouldn’t be mended by hope and trust the way he thought could be true after seeing orpheus. it was not only a purposefully hard test, but it was also self destructive in a way. if orpheus failed as the “better” version of hades, how could he while still so flawed succeed? meanwhile orpheus saw the worst case scenario for him and eurydice and how evil hades was in his mind, and couldn’t put trust in the way the world COULD be anymore, but only the way he had observed it. but hades was also AFRAID of orpheus succeeding, because that meant maybe hades could too. he struggled for so long thinking he wasn’t enough for persephone and now he can’t see himself as worthy anymore, which is “why” he works on hadestown, another self destructive behavior as it pushes her away. basically orpheus’ test was REALLY hades’ test for himself, and he orchestrated validation of his future failure. i think the main theme in the musical is definitely hope, and hades had JUST enough to test it, but too much doubt still to fully allow himself to do so in himself. thus damning orpheus to fail and suffer the same fate he has/will. but we tell the story again in the hope that this time, hope will be enough to change the world

[@kealiiamaoli]

And at the end, that’s why they continue telling the story, knowing how it will end but hoping anyways. Loved this 💕

[@mischr13]

great comment, wow

[@akward4210]

​@@lightworthy Great interpretation! Orpheus and Hades are meant to be compared, which is why Orpheus is so effective at reaching Hades in Epic III. In addition, the doubt that Hades feels regarding his worth to Persephone is highlighted in Orpheus' characterization very early on. The motif of "who am/are I/you?" appears as early as "All I've Ever Known", when Orpheus questions who he is that he should get to hold Eurydice. It appears again in both in "Wait for me" and "Doubt Comes In", instigated by the Fates. Orpheus was never supposed to be that much better than Hades. I wouldn't say that Hades is necessarily evil, he's just become extremely jaded due to his own insecurities.

[@phadenswandemil4345]

The ending doesn't just literally apply to the story of orpheus and eurydice. It can only be read as an allegory to any kind of revolution. A lot of unjust things in history aren't won over by one battle. Its often a series of battles and protests which eventually lead to a slightly better society than before. Like Orpheus. Even though he couldn't save Eurydice, he still brought the world back into tune. Sometimes, battles are lost. Yet the spirit and determination of the fighters continue to inspire the future generations fighting for the same cause. That's why stories of these fighters are retold across generations like the myth of Orpheus and Eurydice. We hope that one day, things might end differently.

[@flusel4949]

Beautifully said!

[@Hakajin]

I feel like allegory is a bit of a strong word. I mean, that theme is definitely in there, but I don't think it's a one-to-one kind of deal. And it's... I wanna say it's not the only theme, but that's not quite right; what I mean is, it's one aspect of the central theme, which is cycles: the cycle of the season, the cycle of life and death, the cycles within people's lives and relationships, the cycle of prosperity and poverty, and, of course, the cycle of oppression and freedom. Which are all bound up in one. That idea of cycles, particularly of death and rebirth, is kind of embedded in the original Persephone and Hades myth. She's the goddess of spring and of the underworld, which might seem kind of strange, but it makes sense when you think about it: dead things return to the earth, but new life also blossoms from it. And with the aspect about people's lives, one thing that interests me is, it's not framed as a straight progression. Orpheus and Hades are framed as kind of yin and yang, but... They've switched places by the end of the show. Hades gives idealism a try again (he even refers to being made a young man again), and Orpheus gives in to doubt. And! I feel like the ending, starting where it began, is not really an ending at all. Because by showing the same events again and again, it might be getting into the idea that there's no such thing as a happy or sad ending, because change is constant? In any case! One of my favorite aspects of the musical is the stage itself, because it creates literal cycles. Like, I love it when they have thematically opposed characters standing opposite each other, circling. And... I'm not sure, but I have this idea that it might also imply fate. Like, walking against the direction the stage wants to carry you could imply fighting fate.

[@phadenswandemil4345]

@@Hakajin Oh yeah. I do like the idea of cycles. I agree that "theme" is a better word than "allegory". I just didn't think much of the difference at the time. But I don't believe there is a one-to-one allegory there at all.

[@ManubibiWalsh]

This is a beautiful comment. Really wish our battles will be won eventually. I want to hope our efforts won’t go to waste.

[@Coeurlarme]

That’s exactly it. Moreover, my personal interpretation but at the end while Hermes sings how a lady stepped out a train and spring has come again, and we sing it again and again and again: the set is resetting to be played again. Eurydice is chilling on stage during the whole show, and at the very end a cleaned up Orpheus (he gets dirtier during the show) arrives and him and Eurydice look each other, like they’re seeing themselves for the first time. Basically: the show is replaying, everything is reset, but in Hermes song spring is there, which I took as spring actually being there this time the story replays. If anyone saw it I’m getting the same vibe as that “the point of devilman crybaby” video. It super does apply to any kind of revolution: do it, even if you lose the big goal (and you likely will like any system you’re trying to change is a godlike entity) you might still earn slight progress (even just awareness and exposure in the masses) that will influence the outcome next time a revolution happens. Shoot for the moon, you won’t reach it but at least you will get closer. And that’s my real interpretation of the show. But if you assume the story and the characters actually exists in some sort of broadway limbo where they reappear with a “reset” and redo the show and that’s why they sing how it’s like they’ve known each others all along, the show still does make sense.

[@imtired9646]

Something I noticed was when Hermes says “songbird versus rattle snake” in when the chips are down, in the original myth Eurydice dies by getting bitten by a snake. These lyrics depict hades as the snake that bit her and in the end killed her. That is brilliant.

[@AimaFreaKtdy]

"During a certain slime tutorial I watched " *I'm dead*

[@bi_beans9011]

Did you mean..... *I'm gone?*

[@AimaFreaKtdy]

@@bi_beans9011 you got me there

[@dangosandlemons]

@@bi_beans9011 hoooooo boy

[@e-linamarie]

headcanon: hermes and the fates are not the only ones aware of the fact that they “sing it again and again,” persephone is aware too. she’s trying to push for some kind of change, so as to break the chain; the “there’s a crack in the wall” line in our lady of the underground is her trying to show the workers the way out. but it doesn’t work, no matter how she tries, so she falls deeper into substance use as a way to numb herself out from being stuck in the loop

[@AbigailThinks]

That's really insightful, never thought of it that way.. but it makes sense since she's so tired of being suffocated by hades attentions, when all she wants to do is leave the underworld.

[@pazyamor2292]

But she gives up the substance abuse and convinces Hades to let Orpheus sing.

[@graceho7479]

Oh, also another clever lyrical mirror: Way Down Hadestown - “Everybody looked, and everybody saw” Way Down Hadestown reprise - “They can look, but they don’t see”

[@JustinY.]

Schaf: *Makes a video on Theater Town* Theater Kids: *I have waited 4, no 5 thousand years for this moment!*

[@MegaSoulHero]

Hi, Justin

[@ryanfriscia1132]

Does that mean the Pillarmen invented musical theater?

[@Vapez759]

Hey

[@southsidehaydts4209]

Is this the Justin Y?

[@tbirge10]

why are you everywhere

[@123tree39]

Now all we need is the 2 hour KZbin exclusive about why Tamatoa is the greatest entity of all time

[@amoderatelysizedmango2551]

You can't possible cover that much ground with only 2 hours. Better make it 5.

[@mastersio3647]

@@amoderatelysizedmango2551 Double it

[@matthewhunter1193]

I thought he said it would only be 1 hour

[@spiritly_106martinez]

Nah you can't do that to Tamatoa gotta make it an entire day then I'll be satisfied. 🙃

[@kaileykrantz]

Or a KZbin exclusive of Shrek the Musical

[@elle-says]

I think he musical explains why Orpheus, despite performing a magnificent feat, looks back beautifully. The beginning of the musical establishes Orpheus = what could be and Eurydice = what is. This severity in difference causes Eurydice’s death. By Doubt Comes In, Orpheus and Eurydice have switched places: Eurydice sings about future faith and Orpheus is consumed by current doubt. They’re not on the same page. The same severity of difference causes her death again.

[@melliedoucette4525]

And at the same time as their perspectives shifted, what they're seeing is still kind of the same: Eurydice sees what is, she sees that her and the Workers are behind Orpheus and that they are on the road home. Orpheus is consumed by what the world could be-- That he's been tricked, or betrayed, and he's going to emerge alone.

[@trustindean5164]

Some of my favorite little details in Hadestown: 1. There's subtle costume design choices that tell you about the characters. My two favorites are Eurydice wears a ton of fake jewelry to show how she wants to live glamorously and all of the jewelry directly relates to her character, and all of the Gods have rhinestones somewhere on their costumes with Hades literally having it sewn into his pinstripes. 2. During "Doubt Comes In" the entire stage goes pitch black with the sole exception of a very dim spotlight on Orpheus, making it look like he's completely alone and showing things from his perspective. When the Fates sing their lantern lights up to show them in a different place in a different pose almost like they're teleporting, and when Eurydice sings a spotlight shines on her and the workers showing they're all still on the stage. 3. The beat in "Chant" is the steady, mechanical beat that Hades brings up as a sign of his order. When that order is questioned in "Chant (Reprise)" the beat gets a little hitch in it at the end. I'm sure there's more but brain no work

[@beta910]

I have a question,did you watch clips of the show or just search up photos of the costumes,I’m trying to see when exactly Persephone’s costume changes from the light green to the black/dark navy one in the show

[@trustindean5164]

@@beta910 i saw the show in Broadway when we could go places. To my understanding it was an addition for the Broadway version. She changes after reappearing in "Why We Build the Wall"

[@QuikVidGuy]

I never saw any jewelry on eurydice, wow

[@luuuuux_]

I never knew this

[@trustindean5164]

The jewelry Eurydice wears is more subtle, like rings featuring birds, snakes, and chains

[@littledewdroplets]

I feel like Our Lady of the Underground is very important in showing how Persephonie is not just unhappy with her life in Hades, but that she doesn't belong at all when being herself, she can only survive there by changing into something she isn't. She enthusiastically tells Orpheus that she will always fill everyone's cup when she is on Earth, but when she is playing the role of Hades' Wife she is charging people for her gifts, even while trying to cheer them up. She is trying to get people to cheer for her in the way they do above ground, but the refer to her only through her titles and Capital. The only one who actually says her name is... well... herself. She has this perception of herself that is just not compatible with who she is when she plays by the rules of her husband (Capitalism), and she refuses to see herself as she is now, trying to hold on to who she was.

[@bilnik6593]

To be honest, I always liked that song but it kinda baffled me. Like, why is it jammed in there? What purpose does it serve? Like, I get that Persephone is depressed in the underworld, but narratively, I couldn't quite put my finger on what exactly was happening in the story at that moment. I've never seen the show, so I did make up some of my own interpretations for it, but I think yours right here beats all of them!!

[@sirensong1794]

@@bilnik6593 It's also the beginning of Act 2, so it feels less abrupt that it likely is on the cast album.

[@jeanettecabrera9368]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/mKStapV-ZtarfcU

[@jaguarenduda]

what??? no! no no no

[@2nnawrap]

@bil nik in the story it’s right when hades takes eurydice into his office, so persephone is taking a drink with the workers ‘while the foreman turns his back’

[@Thorn_Ursulo]

One of my favorite moments in Hadestown comes from "Our lady of the underground" from when Persephone sings "Look a little closer and there's a crack in the wall" as I take it to mean both there is a crack in the wall of the river styx, which is how Orpheus got into Hadestown, and ALSO that there is a crack in the 4th wall which is why she introduces all the band members to the audience

[@mateakalanj3988]

i'm not standing for our lady of the underground shade. the way she relates to the workers??? the unfair and artificial commodification of natural goods under capitalism?? the alienation of the worker from nature and humanity in general?? the understanding that persephone resents hades for the way he treats his workers???????????

[@saltyysnails]

RIGHT ITS SO GOOD!!?? i cant believe this 😔

[@ayatr26]

M O O D!!!!!!!

[@abagel3902]

Thank you!

[@xiang5814]

It fucking slaps and I stand by this

[@littlelost7402]

honestly!!! I had to pause the video. One of the best songs?? a whole 5 minutes of Amber Gray? what more do you want?!?

[@MilkyWayGrump]

One point about Our Lady of the Underground. There's a reason it seems so disconnected; it isn't supposed to be part of the musical. At one point, during intermission, the actress playing Persephone was supposed to come out with the audience and play the song at the theatre's bar while the show was out, mingling and interacting with the audience as they got their drinks. The idea was scrapped due to logistical issues, but the song was written, so they crammed it at the beginning of act 2. Just a bit of trivia.

[@RubyBlueUwU]

Oh that’s fascinating? It’d be cool if they could still play it during intermission, but that’d rather defeat the point of the intermission I guess

[@rafaelaveralugo7626]

@@RubyBlueUwULol, I can imagine "John, use the restroom. It's a two-hour show" "NO. Our Lady of the Underground is playing!"

[@TheAnga27]

@@RubyBlueUwU I suppose at the same time it does reference old theatre where the intermission had shows of their own. Back during the peak of kings and courts in places such as France, where for these theatre plays they also referenced what they knew of from the Greeks

[@aaaaaaaaaa1094]

ok so i literally wrote an essay about hadestown and there's a few points i think i can add (they'll probably be under the read more so uhh contents: the symbolism of the flower and the themes it shows, the real tragedy of the ending, and a small easter egg that was probably unintentional but really cool so i'm putting it in here) 1. the flower we can all agree pretty much that it's a red carnation, right? like based on the shape of it. so, why not a rose? both flowers mean love and affection, but carnations have more than one meaning. think of international worker's day (and socialism in general), or the carnation revolution. both use the red carnation as a prominent symbol, and both are relevant to the workers (sub?)plot. there is a part of the show where it changes from one to the other, and its so obvious why they chose it: if it's true. we see orpheus almost give up on his love for eurydice and be defeated by how bad things really are, but then almost immediately shift his focus onto how other people also need help and the song ends with him asserting his love for humanity and the rights of the common person and being willing to stand for it. (also when hades puts the flower in his lapel he looks kind of like president mckinley, who is well known for his presidency having a great general economy but awful working conditions) 2. the ending i respectfully disagree that there's no point to the end and that the message is 'doubt is bad'. in the original, sure, but not in hadestown. throughout the show, orpheus changes from a naive, trusting boy into someone who is committed to change but aware that people take advantage of others. the tragedy in this is that, had hades asked orpheus from the beginning to do the same thing, he would have succeeded. the message is that capitalism creates the conditions to completely break your spirit, forces you to become distrustful, gives you reasons to believe anything good that happens to you is a lie, then laughs at you when you assume that that's true. no single person can be blamed for working within that mindset, and it's a tragedy that the events of the story lead to orpheus' ultimate failing. amber gray once said in an interview about hadestown that activism isn't about getting all your goals, it's about making it easier for the people after you to achieve them. orpheus did create real change, he just failed in his personal goal. (bonus: the easter egg in my essay, i found myself writing about how eurydice's position in chant is reminiscent of the triple burden of women talked about by many second-wave feminists. this got me looking at marxist feminist margaret benston, who said "the amount of unpaid labour performed by women is very large and very profitable to those who own the means of production." this was relevant to that paragraph i swear. anyway, she also wrote a chapter in an anthology titled 'for women, now the chips are down', which made me like 👀. ok thats it bye)

[@HyrumCooper]

This was a great analysis, you should share your essay or make a video going further in-depth

[@AA-cf4es]

I need to read your essay

[@carlygorgal4514]

I NEED that essay 🙀

[@anthony..5737]

This comment is amazing

[@mooglenort3570]

I’ll just be gushing about “Hey, Little Songbird” in the back. Patrick Page’s voice in the song and in general actually scares me. The way his voice helps his character is insane and I can’t even put it in words. The song, it’s lyrics, and the performance is amazing. Also Eva Noblezada.

[@psychedelicfeline6164]

His voice sends chills down my spine in the most delightful way

[@clara.galley]

I do really like that song but I can listen to it at night bc his voice honestly freaks me out when I'm like in the dark and alone in my room.... but he's super talented so it's still a great song haha

[@galaxystudios370]

Well, it made his villain song list so...

[@saltyysnails]

yes!!!! i’m more familiar with the live version, and whenever eurydice says “wasn’t it gonna be the two of us, weren’t we birds of a feather” in that recording, it’s so full of sheer emotion and it makes my heart hurt a lot

[@cdplayr]

Eva Noblezada 💕❤️

[@hunnybunny12730]

When Hermès says “...but we sing it anyway” after doubt comes in, I get chills man. Genuine chills. Love this show.

[@checofy]

I’m just gonna leave this idea here: Closing Night = He doesn’t turn

[@razberrymist9475]

I gasped

[@noellealmeidasantos374]

i would sell my soul to see this happen

[@aisarete]

My friend and I have been saying this, I would pay anything to make that happen, just once 😭

[@happybalaga4716]

@@noellealmeidasantos374 me too

[@sapphireannahope8121]

I'd be a blubbering mess in the theater, even more then I usually am.

[@Emily-fs7vd]

The cool thing about Hermes in Hadestown is that in Greek Mythology he was one of the several Greek gods who escorted the dead to Hades, I think it's interesting that they chose him as the narrator and the station master for the train to Hadestown

[@sofiac6911]

in "road to hell" hermes says "a man ... who could help you to your final destination" about himself!

[@Miss_13th]

Something I think is a little detail and that’s easy to miss is that Carnations (The flower used throughout the musical) are one of the cheapest flowers. “Orpheus is a poor boy” so he only used a cheap flower. Of course I could be looking into that too much, because they also represent love and devotion.

[@sillygoosetaur]

Yeah I’m guessing it’s because of the love and devotion this time ^^

[@seineevee]

I think it could be both

[@somebodyelse5369]

Call it a hunch, but I think he likes Hadestown.

[@sophiaw5319]

Woah really?

[@Stargazer_Pie]

No way. (Also nice NKG pfp)

[@MarieJes23]

Yeah, you don’t say

[@thought-full3445]

Call it a hunch, but I think you like Hollow Knight

[@maverickhunterstupidiocy7779]

Call it a hunch, but I think I'm breathing

[@lorenzoaten4442]

when "build the wall" was written, it was just a metaphor.

[@mollyjaneleblanc]

your icon is fucking amazing

[@sophiedingman7211]

420th like let’s go

[@lorenzoaten4442]

@@sophiedingman7211 YOOOOO

[@samsara801]

No it wasn't? Humans have been building walls forever for political reasons... for example the Israeli West Bank Barrier, the Berlin Wall, hell, even the Great Wall of China... It's not like Trump was some genius who came up with the idea. The Bush and Obama administrations already did work on the US-Mexico border wall as well.

[@lorenzoaten4442]

@@samsara801 buddy... the song isn't about building a wall...

[@boboboaaa8050]

I find it utterly gut wrenchingly bittersweet how the end of Hadestown basically tells us “Orpheus saved the world, but lost his along the way”😭😭😭

[@alangivre2474]

Yes indeed. It is one of the parts I liked the best of the musical.

[@ajaykundlas7461]

I think Lindsay Ellis put it best: It's a show that emphasizes the appeal of tragedies and theater especially. Performances, cast members, sets, musicians, etc, are dynamic and change. The orchestra that Persephone specifically names in the universe of the play changes. And it's that hope that if they can change, maybe so can the ending, that brings people back, that makes them hope. It's like NieR Automata and how it contextualizes death and game overs in its story: it's something that literally can't work as powerfully in any other medium.

[@emjenkins464]

If you look st through an academic slant it's really similar to Locus and Platea in the Early modern theatre (a good example being Shakespeare). They create place and space in a minimalist way, yet are aware they are performing a set tragedy that cannot be changed.

[@SuperSeebass]

When did she talk about it?

[@ajaykundlas7461]

@@SuperSeebass At the end of her Titanic Video.

[@caitlinwhitfield5621]

When did Lindsay talk about hadestown???

[@lordknightalex]

something abt it cutting to hermes himself saying "but we sing it anyways" just hit different

[@super-sizedmcshizzle6235]

It startled me a little lol

[@emilyk4061]

Sometimes when I'm sad about lockdown, I like to think about the hypothetical first time Andre De Shields walks on stage after reopening, and the ENEGERY that first long pause and subsequent "Alright" is going to have. It gives me goosebumps.

[@TheDogsarebest]

And a year later, you were completely right. I hope you've seen that video, cause it's intense and amazing

[@averyjeanne]

I saw Hadestown a month ago and it was amazing. Andre de Sheilds is an incredible performer.

[@anerdiguess1029]

And then there’s the one from his closing night. Absolutely insane energy and applause longer than Hugh Jackman’s Music Man entrance

[@amberlyveil8856]

You talk about Hadestown WITHOUT mentioning "Why we build the wall?" Blasphemy! That is the single best villain song ever! And a brilliantly subtle critique of capitalism

[@chiannegibbs9462]

It’s one of my favorite songs like its just so haunting

[@maverickhunterstupidiocy7779]

It’s kind of a yuuuuge deal

[@catarinaverduro2966]

i mean it's not at all subtle. it's amazing but not subtle.

[@briobrien5729]

yeah it ain't subtle

[@amberlyveil8856]

@@briobrien5729 its subtle enough that I've heard MAGAheads singing along to it unironically... thinking it supported their side

[@kyla596]

Muse’s son = musician Play the lyre = liar and a player Electric city = electricity ^ some of my favorite wordplay from the show

[@happychaosofthenorth]

Kyla Q And when the Fates sing “The whole damn nation’s watching you.” Dam nation = damnation. Love that one too.

[@radz6430]

@@happychaosofthenorth thats one of my favourites too

[@sillygoosetaur]

and “women are so seasonal” I don’t know if that counts as wordplay

[@rafaelaveralugo7626]

I almost thought Hermes said "musician" in Road to Hell

[@katie3706]

The thing that breaks my heart is that Orpheus's character development is what makes the ending so sad. Over time he has become aware that the world isn't always nice and kind and lively. He knows that people get hurt, or lie, or leave. So, when he has the chance to leave Hadestown, Eurydice right behind him; the fact that he knows how the world is, disregarding what it could be, leads to him doubting whats going on. It leads him to turn around.

[@Phasmania]

It’s rare that musicals can pull off character development so naturally and with subtle placements throughout the track instead of just having a big number about how someone has changed from like 3 songs ago. Love Hadestown so much

[@Madiwithluv]

Me who has no knowledge of musicals but have read the percy jackson series: okay, lets see what this is about

[@mittycommitspizzatime92]

same lol

[@Euclideia]

Mitty Commits Pizza Time Even better, there’s the actual Percy Jackson musical that I heard is pretty good too. (I’ve only read the first book a long time ago though)

[@baileythewitchofvoid8784]

@@Euclideia I highly recommend you read the rest of the series (pirate it online)

[@user-uo9gg2zc6j]

@@baileythewitchofvoid8784 why pirate it?

[@elicurtis9999]

the TLT musical is actually so good and does the books way more justice than the movies which i mean is a low bar but the musical beats it by a mile

[@PotatoChicken-gg1ju]

Ok, but just a thought about the ending? I have ocd, and for those who don't know, it's not a disorder of perfectionism or hand-washing. Ultimately, it's a disorder that feeds off doubt. The obsessions bother sufferers in part due to the fact that there is an element of uncertainty to them. What if my hands aren't clean? What if I left the oven on? So on and so forth. The compulsions are a way to get reassurance, but they only work for a moment and ultimately make the disease worse. This is why the ending of Hadestown speaks so personally to me. In order to get better, I have to struggle with the anxiety that comes with the uncertainty. Like Orpheus, I'm told not to do the one thing that I think will make me feel better. When he looks back, I can relate to the feelings of temporary relief, and then sadness when I realize that I had just given in to my compulsion. Then the message of hope that this is the way things currently are, and not the way they could be is amazingly encouraging to me. An EXTREMELY personal reading, I know, but just something I thought I'd share anyways 🙂

[@amnahaq699]

So apt and profound..... 😭😭

[@PotatoChicken-gg1ju]

Thanks! Glad I could add to the conversation! 🙂

[@ava-ff9rt]

I felt like this at the end of the musical too

[@izzygiorgi3446]

YOOOOOO I HAVE OCD AND I NEVER EVEN THOUGHT OF THIS

[@AtlasBlizzard]

Thank you! As someone else with OCD, it's good to hear this angle that so many people don't understand about it. Uncertainty and doubt are at the heart of OCD.

[@katieodonnell4745]

Okay, as someone who had studied Classics (and more specifically, Greek tragedy and myth), I feel SO passionately that this show is a beautiful modern interpretation of not just the myths it is based on, but the art form of Greek tragedy itself. The way the chorus is used, the subtle hints at mythological truths, and the true catharsis you get at the end is beautiful. It manages to take the core elements of Greek tragedy and modernize it for a more contemporary audience. Greek tragedy was composed to be sung or at least have elements of song from the chorus, which would serve as our narrator (much like Hermes and the chorus do in Hadestown). I don't even know how to properly put into words all the things this show does perfectly from a Classics standpoint, I'm honestly flabbergastedd

[@beccac.4923]

YES! That was my thought when I saw it, how the fact that the chorus is so integral to the action that it felt like the show honored its roots. And as you said and I did not think of, it nailed the other elements of Greek tragedy too. I did not think I could love something so sad this much, but this show is endlessly brilliant and the more I see it, read on or even think about it, the more I love it. Anyway, terrific analysis!

[@inspieredanimal3809]

Yes! Also Hermes is the god of messengers and often a messenger would deliver news or share details in ancient Greek theatre, so having Hermes narratoring/delivering key information plays into both ancient Greek theatre and his role as the god of messengers

[@SilverCookie412]

Another cool thing I noticed in the lyrics of “Wedding Song” I love the double meaning when Orpheus says “the river will break their banks for us”. Literally, it’s saying the riverbank will move to reveal gold, but “breaking the bank” also means paying a lot of money since weddings are expensive lol

[@carolinebrown9051]

"Breaking their banks for us" could also refer to both the benefits and/or destruction of flooding. When the Nile would 'break its banks', it would leave behind fertile soil that allowed for easier growth of crops to sustain the population. However, a river 'breaking its banks' can also destroy homes and crops, destroying the livelihood of everyone in the surrounding area.

[@fuzzytheduck]

It could also refer to the crack in the wall!!!

[@t.h.1492]

In Greek mythology, the nymphs of the rivers loved Orpheus’ music so much that they would throw gold to him. The river literally broke its bank for him

[@twitterforandriod1560]

me a person who's only listen to the original hadestown: oh yeah all I've ever know is her backstory so- Shaff: Their love ballad me: **THEIR W H A T**

[@dundonjon]

Every time I hear the la la la melody, I swear I get chills. Anais did an incredible job at creating such a fluid and beautiful melody that makes me want to listen to it on repeat

[@picklesthewise]

This is the first musical I've really thrown myself into loving in a long time. Not only is the writing in the songs wonderful (there are strengths in every version), but the way they're written to be performed is interesting. Most of the womens' parts have lower ranges than "normal" shows on Broadway - this has been commented on by Anais Mitchell herself in some interviews. In a "typical" show women usually are cast in a higher soprano range and have to do a lot of difficult, belting, bring-the-house-down numbers. But that puts a lot more undue pressure onto the actresses and also excludes women who sing naturally in a lower range. Anais Mitchell instead wrote in her own range, and wrote songs for all types of female voices. So you get mezzo-soprano, alto, etc., even soprano notes that are much more comfortable for women to sing, while still being very impressive. Just look at Eva Noblezada and Amber Gray for two amazing examples of women who don't sing "high" but are still powerful on stage. And then, with the guys...MAN do they have some challenging stuff to do 🤣. I kind of find it funny that the tables have turned and now the guys have to do the "impossible" ranges women had been putting up with for so long. But the best part is, they're not done without thought; they're meant to show contrast and character. Orpheus is meant to be a young, happy idealist, so he has the highest range in the show and stands out from all the browbeaten cynicism around him. Enter Reeve Carney who, although he's taking over from a pretty good vocalist in the initial pre-Broadway run, gives the character what he needs to be the real hero of the play; youthful uncertainty, but a universal hope. Meanwhile, Hades' voice has to come from the literal depths of Hell, in complete contrast. Even though I wouldn't call him a villain, he's still the main opposing force. And damn, I really don't think they could have gotten anyone but Patrick Page for the part. If we're playing baritone limbo, the bar has to be all the way at the Earth's center before we find a note he can't hit. Big fan obviously 💖 These are characters on two opposing sides of a spectrum, not only in vocal scale but in ideology in the story. So the decision is done with intent and done beautifully. I really respect this show for its technical prowess, meaningful story, and for taking risks that pay off. EDIT: Also, the jazz. Definitely the jazz.

[@radz6430]

oh yes the jazz. also i agree, i love the vocal diversity

[@constantTVstatic]

I love jazz band. I love jazz. Well, not all of jazz. But definitely, like, jazz band jazz. That's so weird. I'm sorry.

[@radz6430]

@@constantTVstatic you apologise a lot.......

[@bilnik6593]

I introduced my sister to Hadestown recently, and during "Hey Little Songbird" she commented that the whole thing about Eurydice going to the Underworld of her own accord kinda sounds like she committed suicide because she couldn't bear living in poverty any longer which... oh my aching heart! (Plus I feel stupid for never realizing in any of the bazillion times I'd listened to it.)

[@razberrymist9475]

There is something eerie and haunting about that number

[@AbigailThinks]

I thought the same thing when I saw the play. It makes sense to me that way because she couldn't handle living in squalor anymore. Right before she goes she's warning Orpheus that a storm is coming, and how they need food and shelter. Also, she willingly goes.

[@juanitaperkins4833]

Not to mention Eva noblezada’s voice is pure bliss and she’s a queen

[@carlotta4th]

Or she starved to death. Take your pick.

[@dimentoplexitronum4923]

Hadestown is my favorite grek-mythology based, anti-capitalist broadway musical about a labor strike to end climate change and establish socialism.

[@garrettwade1294]

Sounds like a very competitive category with many good contenders

[@baguettegott3409]

And that's weirdly what put me off about it. Not that I don't like all of these things, but it was introduced to me as such. Not as a musical with cool characters, a cool story or good music, but as "and she wrote Why Do We Build The Wall? ages before Trump, can you believe it?? And Hades basically does industrialization, see, and this is how it's also socialist if you listen closely!" And idk. I like the music now, after a while, but I still feel deeply disconnected with the story and the characters. The ambiguous setting also doesn't help with that. I have no intuition for this world and these people beyond "a giant anti-capitalist allegory".

[@mfairyx]

​​@@baguettegott3409all of that socialists messages are just points of view of some of its audience. Which doesn't mean the musical was created with that point. Just listen to it without talking on count others people opinion and form ur own based on what you thought. It's just a piece of art (based on a myth told ages ago!!), and at the end of it all it doesn't mean it will have an big "socialist" effect on todays society and politic.

[@kxena2913]

Wasn’t the whole meta thing also a common trait of old Greek epics?? Like when they were performed, didn’t they always open by addressing the audience and had a whole “let me tell you a story” thing.

[@lpsloveandgame6046]

k xena Yep, most of them were poems recited again and again in cities by poets like Homer

[@WHAATEVEN]

Nah I know he did not just say Lady Of The Underground was the worst song. A 30 minute video could be made on the hidden little nuancey things in that song alone!! 😤😤

[@franm938]

Right!! I was shocked when he said that ;-;

[@whimsical_bitches_club]

thank gods im not alone in thinking this😭🙏

[@juliasings6131]

And also The obvious best reason for why it's amazing Amber gray

[@iAmMadeOfSoup]

That one is one of my favorites

[@Eval999]

Lady of the Underground is like so obviously one of the best songs in the musical like wtf is he on LMAO

[@LOLWAAHH]

I watched this show knowing absolutely nothing about it -- I won the lottery for it and was extremely fortunate to have gotten a seat 3 rows from the front in the center orchestra section, and let me tell you this was a transformative journey. Being that up close and having the swinging lights literally swing _right above me_ was mind boggling and mesmerizing, and having the characters tower and rise above me as if they were actual gods, along with the set transformation had me in mind-numbing disbelief at the overwhelmingly beautiful musical I just watched. Never had an experience like it before, and likely never will again. Favorite musical, favorite piece of art, hands down

[@BasicStockMan]

Watching a profile picture of angry Tamatoa walk into a theatre is something I never knew I needed

[@GaeFootballClub]

"why Hadestown is the Most Brilliant Musical Ever" *you had me at Hadestown*

[@baeah3021]

The a cappella part in Epic III really represents the magic of stage shows for me. No accompaniment, no editing, no cinematography or anything to embellish the moment. Just a group of people absolutely pouring their hearts out to an audience, hoping that they’ll receive the emotion. It’s amazing

[@mareike8244]

Maybe the reason for the tragic ending is to show us how the world really is, which is one where death isn't reversible. You can't just go to the underworld and bring back your loved ones, that is not reality. That would also make sense with 'Raise a Cup': in that song Orpheus stands for everyone who has lost a loved one. "Let all our singing follow him and bring him comfort" the musical is supposed to help those people deal with their loss. "But the ones who sing in the dead of night, we raise our cups to them", the music is for those people who are going through hard times but who are nevertheless keeping hope alive.

[@fiddler_stickss]

Wow, I never thought of that.

[@Fairygoblet]

Even though it doesn't really fit with the conflict of The story, I often like to interpret eurydice going down into the underworld as her starving to death. Orpheus just couldn't finish his song In Time and she succumbed to her mortality before he could finish. Orpheus is unable to bring her back because he can't see life or death the same way after he lost her. Just a thought.

[@mollystringer6273]

That's the message I've always gotten from we raise our cups; sure it's about the story and the characters, but it's also a message to people who are struggling for a whole host of reasons, most directly the loss of a loved one. They quite literally say that the song is for both "orpheus and all of us," they're breaking the fourth wall and singing directly to whoever is listening.

[@juliafraa6419]

​@@Fairygobletthat's how I interpret it too

[@kinz_tea]

I love this musical so much. I’m an animator, and as soon as I listened to the musical, I could immediately imagine the story in my head. There’s so many small details that I actually enjoy doing research on all the lyrics and metaphors. I’m still trying to storyboard the songs to make animatics, but there’s so many things I want to honor in them that I keep stalling to make them. I can’t tell you just how much I love this musical and how much it’s impacted me. Just wanted to get that off my chest, this was such a great video that showcases the genius of this musical and condenses my numerous geek out sessions into a an amazing video. Great work!! 👍

[@eatatjoes6751]

I'm a writer and this musical is a godsend to us.

[@likecaroline]

schlaff: imagine writing a song for the whole musical and it sucks me: ugh like "your eyes" from rent schlaff: *plays "your eyes" from rent* I'M GLAD WE ALL AGREE........

[@VillageDigby]

Still the worst song in the entire show

[@emalaw1329]

@@VillageDigby Really? When fucking Over The Moon exists? I get that it's meant to sound awful, but that doesn't make it satisfying to listen to...

[@emalaw1329]

@Sakura I agree, the context and the role it should fill make it worse. I still find Over The Moon more grating in a vacuum, while Your Eyes is tolerable at best and boring at worst, but I definitely see your point

[@mfairyx]

​@@emalaw1329 I think that was Larson's point. It was Maureens show and her protest, it isn't good and mediocre, but it is a song written by the character instead of the actual writer.

[@rafaelaveralugo7626]

@Sakura-uo3qzFr, the only reason I like Over the Moon is because of Idina Menzel

[@bane2201]

For some reason "Contractual Pomegranate" sounds like a parody subtitle for a Professor Layton game.

[@facilityhues]

Underrated Comment

[@a-s-greig]

Or a Psych episode.

[@ryanrenn4815]

professor layton and the legally binding pomegranate

[@DisneyGeek_]

I love The Fates and their haunting alto melodies. To me, it somehow found a way to build and still be steady at the same time. Broadway needs more alto roles.

[@m4rtina.]

Yes, I love the deep part in wait for me reprise. It made me feel good about my deep alto voice

[@pazyamor2292]

I love and fear the fates! Such glorious nightmares!

[@jojowolfe1753]

I love how the fanbase chooses to collectively forget that after Orpheus leaves Hadestown without Eurydice, he tries to kill himself over and over but fails every time. Eventually he was killed (by maenads or beasts, depending on the version).

[@sillygoosetaur]

what do you mean this never happened it doesn’t exist

[@luuuuux_]

I remember reading this in the original myth. And then deciding to suppress it. Thanks for helping me remember.

[@nickbb6185]

I dont really understand this comment, like, last i checked that straight up does not happen in the musical?

[@Gemnist98]

That’s because most editions of the original myth (including adaptations like this) stop at the part where he loses her to emphasize the tragedy.

[@sillygoosetaur]

@@nickbb6185 it happens in the original myth

[@meisheencalsado4142]

I want Schaffrilla to make a list of his favorite musicals. I need to watch more musicals and i know he'll have good recommendations.

[@Isarai1705]

I can recommend some I think are good too Natasha, Pierre and the Comet of 1812 In the Heights Amélie Fun home Next to normal Something Rotten Falsettos Hunchback of Notre Dame Legally Blonde (it's good trust me) Tucker Everlasting

[@Ash-bo9eu]

He made a tier list a while back on twitter

[@ktw5574]

This is so rando, but: Spongebob the Musical is a really good musical. Nick aired a pro-shot on TV a while back, and it has a really fun cast album, the characters' actors all portray them in the most perfect way, and the stage design is...**chef's kiss**

[@christopherjamesbautista901]

I don’t hate SBtM. But the songs seems very disjointed.

[@ryanrenn4815]

I've been thinking a lot about alice by heart lately. not perfect, but super emotional!

[@macabreAtlas]

Bruh, I had tickets to go see Hadestown on Broadway. With the OBC. And then COVID struck. And then I dove deep into sadness

[@adarateranroldan]

Maybe they’ll relaunch the show. I’m just learning about it and crying that there’s no proshot a la Hamilton.

[@channart374]

hadestown is back babyyyyyy 🎉🎉🎉

[@eclair566]

Our lady of the underground is more on Persephone than anything else, showing her compassion to the workers by showing them hope like sunshine in jars and a crack in a wall, and giving the workers the bit of humanity that they need, furthering her role as a character that embodies death and rebirth at the same time.

[@MrSmile078]

The story of Eurydice and Orfeous have a happy ending, after Orfeous dies (by being murder for signing to many sad songs) he got reunited with Eurydice and the legend says now they walk together side by side along the shores of the river Styx

[@carverbrauchle891]

Only a Greek myth would have a happy ending being a guy getting stabbed to death

[@Licoryce14]

Only in some versions though, in other versions of the myths he gets his head cut off by nymps and is forced to sing for them for the rest of time. Resulting in him never reuniting with Eurydice again.

[@giuliagabriela9729]

omg 3 diferent versions, why?

[@INTPTT]

In the version I heard, some female worshippers of Dionysus propositioned him, he rejected them since he was still mourning Eurydice, so they literally ripped him to shreds.

[@rafaelaveralugo7626]

You know for a fact that Eurydice held this over his head for all eternity. Eurdyice: Orpheus, I have a surprise for you, so I need you to not look. Can you do THAT? Orpheus: That was ONE time! Eurydice: The same number of chances you had

[@Ari-wc2dr]

Me: crying bc the way schaff talks about the musical is just so beautiful and his words moved me Schaff: sQuArEsPaCe

[@jackrosenfeld4713]

when hades finally sings "la la la" i get chills every time. he finally breaks and remembers everything- seeing it live must be so intense.

[@froggyfun1830]

I would also like to point out another layer to this show that makes me love it even more. Annais Mitchell has talked about how this show is also a metaphor for the treatment of immigrants in the US. Listening through it with that context... my god it’s even more beautiful. The story of Orpheus and Eurydice not only is a tragic love story but also, the story of two immigrants. Orpheus, staying in poverty to try and change the world that Eurydice is running from, Eurydice running from that world because of poverty, only to realize the world she was running to, is a nightmarish hellscape, tricking you into believing that the the only way to live is to work and yet work yourself to death to get there, losing yourself, and your culture in the process. Why do We Build the Wall shows this really well, especially in showing how the US dehumanizes immigrants as “invaders who take our work” and also is a terrifyingly accurate portrayal of the LITERAL WALL being built now. “Why do we build the wall? The wall keeps out the enemy, the enemy is poverty, and we build the wall to keep us free. That’s why we build the wall.” Then you have Orpheus who knows the process of trying to save Eurydice from the shackles of Hades, slowly breaks down at the realization of Hadestown’s horror. But he rises up and in the realization, used his vision of a better world to fix this one, starting an uprising with the other workers in “If it’s True.” In wait for me reprise, the lyrics are also hauntingly beautiful. Orpheus and Eurydice represent more than themselves now, they represent a success story, hope for immigrants in the face of discrimination. “If you can do it, so can she, if she can do it so can we. We will follow where you lead.” And so the heartbreak of when they fail hurts even more. Eurydice didn’t make it and for the others hope is lost. But not completely. It’s why they tell the song over and over again, in the hopes one day the world will be better and they will succeed. The failure and the retelling represents how this can’t be a happy story yet. Because this problem between the US and immigrants is still ongoing, it still must be fixed. So they keep retelling the story. In the hopes that one day, the world will be how Orpheus invisioned. Happy, kind. I would really reccomend re-listening with that context in mind. It truly shows how much thought was put into the show. Like how Persephone can represent a migrant who made it in the US but misses and visits her old home. How the coin hades gives people to come to Hadestown represents how hard it is to get to the US without money and that why most people come illegally is because they literally can’t afford to get there. How poverty is what drove Eurydice to Hadestown in the first place (which is a huge reason for immigration) How they way around the back that Orpheus went represents illegally coming to the US How they people forgetting who they are in Hadestown represents how immigrants slowly start to become Americanized and detached from their own culture “Why we build the wall” AS A WHOLE GOD THE MUSICAL IS AMAZING THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING ABOUT IT SCHRAFILLAS

[@gabrielbolanos3871]

Wow. This... is actually spot on. Also, that makes me think of some other instances where it matches up. Persephone smuggles wine for those in the overworld, just like immigrants in the US tend to send remittances and packages to their relatives in their home country. Eurydice gets lured into going to Hadestown because Hades makes it sound like a world without poverty when really it’s a nightmare where you work until you die, just like what so many penniless immigrants to the US find out when they arrive. Orpheus represents activists who try to make the plight of immigrants better, only to get bogged down by their disillusionment with the system and doubt that they can really make a difference. Orpheus turning around last minute shows how close we’ve come as a country to create the world that immigrants dream of... only to fail time and time again. Wow, Anais Mitchell is so good, it’s chilling.

[@TheTubbyboy69]

Wow. That’s Incredible!!

[@caseytaylor4896]

“But Eurydice will come back...right?” STOP I SOMEHOW FORGOT THERE WAS MUSIC AFTER EPIC III and NOW, my heart hurts

[@jamesanderson3902]

By watching, WE are orpheus, seeing the show how it COULD be with a happy ending. Instead we dont see the world as it IS. Just like orpheus. It isp probably the most impressive parallel in the show, the connection between orpheus and us

[@marina.gansey]

i discovered this musical by accident and i think it’s the greatest accident that’s ever happened to me. i agree with everything you said (except our lady of the underground part, that song slaps) and it’s my favorite musical as well. simply a masterpiece.

[@MegaSoulHero]

The show was gonna come to my city in January 2021, but then the pandemic happened. I’m sad.

[@matthewhunter1193]

F

[@shalmali-379]

f

[@sarahlong4432]

They were coming to mine Nov 2020, I feel you 😩

[@Ari-vy7xe]

F

[@randomamy9400]

i just watched the "slime tutorial" of hadestown, a musical I loved for so long. I love looking at how the choreography works with the lyrics. Its so beautiful. When orpheus turns, eurydice freezes and sinks down as if pulled into hadestown. It's as if they aren't acting they are truly upset, the fact that they lost the most important person theyve ever known. I may have not cried, but I could feel the pain.

[@qrangejuice8225]

I found this through an animatic in June and just fell in love.

[@Angelina-sc4bf]

Why Hadestown is the Most Brilliant Musical Ever but its just a bootleg of Hadestown

[@codelchodester4006]

You mean slime tutorial ;)

[@Littlestraincloud]

Hadestown: A Folk Musical Schaffrillas Productions: The music has a folk feel to it!

[@alliguidoo4251]

I just screamed "YESSSSS" out loud when I saw the title God I love Hadestown;;;

[@user-xb5bz4fu9o]

Everytime I see Hadestown stuff I just feel the need to scream about the off Broadway live cast and Damon Daunno and how underrated it is

[@angelaphsiao]

I took my dad to see the tour in LA just yesterday. He said it was “fine”, and “if it’s about greek mythology why are they wearing modern clothes”. I tried to explain the show but it just went over his head. I think he would be happier if Hadestown was an italian opera. Oh well, you can’t please everyone. I thought it was amazing though.

[@j-art1207]

I went with my sister she didn't like reeve carney's voice which is unfortunate considering the entire musical is about him singing but I absolutely loved it

[@queenkatara7861]

My half-Greek, Percy Jackson-loving ass forgot what happened in the Orpheus myth until 2/3 into the musical and I was freaking out the whole time and then went into a state of shock when he turns around even though I knew at that point what was going to happen.

[@abihunter4134]

If you haven’t already I think everyone should watch Starkid’s “The Guy who didn’t like Musicals” musical...

[@idkdude8795]

Yes!! The Guy Who Didnt Like Musicals is literally my favorite musical!!!

[@swirlingsun]

this is the third comment I've found saying this and I'm so here for it

[@timcraig5865]

CONSIDER THE COCONUT

[@asrieldreemurr1988]

They should

[@alejandraayala8815]

I agree!

[@annewainwright9558]

What I love about this show is that you start wondering what would've happened if Orpheus hadn't turned around. You start to hope that they'll do one show like that. But the thing is, that could never happen. Never. And not just because of the whole "probably would have to write another ending song" thing, but because that's simply not what happens. I wish he hadn't turned around. But as Hermes says, even in the first song, "It's a sad song, it's a tragedy." Having that hope that things might somehow go differently someday is part of the experience. It makes us believe in the ending that could be, in spite of the way that it is. We hope to see something different, but that's not the way it is. And it's not because of character development that the show has to end up that way, not Orpheus learning how to hold on to those he loves, not Euridice learning to hope for what could be, but because that's just (bluntly) how it goes. We're supposed to hope for a different ending. We're meant to wish for more. (Also those who haven't seen the story and aren't particularly invested in the story would be confused by the ending if it went well) BUT ANYWAY. "Raise a Glass" is particularly important, I think, despite it not being my favorite song of the show. We are asked to raise a glass, not just to Orpheus and his god bending song, but to Hades and Persephone for fixing the seasons through the renewal of their love, in sorrow to Euridice for trusting in love even as Orpheus grew doubtful, to the Chorus for looking up even when a god was telling them not to, to Hermes for telling the tragedy of love, even if it hurts, because it must be told, and even to the Fates for helping us understand that this ending, like many other endings, was fate and can't and maybe shouldn't be changed. We are asked to raise a glass to the truth of the tale, to acknowledge what happens, and almost to promise to never give up hope that things could be different one day. Also, we basically know that the story is a loop. When we start the song again snd everyone shows up on stage in the bar wearing their original clothes, we think "oh. this is a loop. they're literally going to sing it again and again". Giving it a happy ending one time would break that loop and make it impossible for it to be sung again. It would save us all from another broken heart, though.

[@funsizedkola1667]

"I should probably learn more about this (Greek mythology) stuff." [cough]OverlySarcasticProductions[cough]

[@baconous689]

Aha! I have found a fellow viewer! Honestly Red's is the only reason why I know the tale of Opheus and Eurdicie (I really should look up how to spell her name correctly.)

[@corenlavolpe6143]

Yeah they got me into Greek Mythology, it's such a cool pantheon.

[@sailorhatphilosopher9149]

That’s where I learn the mythology most of the time

[@odinseinherji9719]

YES! I love OSP

[@neccodealer]

Same thought

[@Bala_Niranna]

the lessons of greek tragedies are just "lol the fates are dicks sometimes" also i wonder if orpheus and eurydice will get their happy ending on the last showing of this musical

[@a-s-greig]

I read the last sentence, and I laughed. Orpheus and Eurydice haven't gotten a happy ending for well over 3,000 years. These guys are a good 5-6 times older than Romeo and Juliet, and that story is every bit as fixed as theirs. You don't just get to rewrite _the_ tragic lost lovers archetype into a happy ending. That's not how this works.

[@fae1722]

Andrew S. Greig damn andrew why r u pressed

[@happychaosofthenorth]

I've tried to argue that The Fates are the actual villain of the story. My theory is that in Hadestown they are your own mind and inner voice, specifically your doubts, personified. They drive the character's decisions which leads to their downfall. They follow Eurydice because her experiences have left her full of doubts and that's why they follow her and guide her into choosing to follow Hades to Hadestown. They sing to Hades when he has doubts and is faced with a difficult decision about whether to let Orpheus and Eurydice go or not and the implications it will have about him as the King of the Underworld. And of course, they sing "Doubt Comes In" to Orpheus, the one who had been tempted by them before (Wait for Me - "Who are you? Where do you think you're going?") but his song and love for Eurydice gave him the strength to resist those doubts and keep him going. But knowing he has only one chance to save her, knowing that she chose to leave him the first time, The Fates, and the doubts they plant in his mind have a much stronger hold on him and eventually he can't resist turning around. Yep, the fates are dicks sometimes.

[@PhantomsoftheOpera]

​@@a-s-greig Actually, the second opera ever written, back in 1602 by Jacopo Peri, was the story of Orpheus and Eurydice, and it had a happy ending, and it was so popular it established a new art form that is still going today (including Hadestown, which is often called a folk opera). Many or most of the musical retellings that followed also ended happily, because people have always wanted it to turn out well, and because stories are not set in stone. They evolve with each telling, that's the beauty of them. That's exactly how it works.

[@tired_0177]

great lyrics? great acting? cool ass stage? AND criticizes capitalism??? hell yeah

[@cherrypuddles]

"The way they both die is kinda comical in hindsight"

[@a-s-greig]

They say "comedy is tragedy plus time." This is one of the oldest tragedies known.