Schizoid Psychology: Are You a Primary or Secondary Schizoid?

In this video I express my views on the differences between Primary and Secondary schizoids, to help to clarify why people who are diagnosed with Schizoid Personality Disorder (SzPD) in the DSM, vary in their internal subjective experiences.
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[@talkingpsychology]

I am glad to see you revisit, expand and develop your concepts of primary and secondary schizoid. It also great to see you intergrate other psychological state and how they fit in your theoretical framework !

[@SchizoidVision]

Thanks for your Feedback, there is more I aim to add to this in future.

[@GreatRegression]

Do you have any thoughts on how much reduction in affect and tendency to dissociate may differ in primary vs. secondary schizoids (if at all)? Thanks.

[@SchizoidVision]

This is a good question. I would say that dissociation varies among individuals in both primary and secondary schizoid categories. Primary schizoids typically experience dissociation from their physical bodies early on, with minimal ego attachment to the physical world. In contrast, secondary schizoids may maintain a stronger connection to the physical world but still exhibit emotional detachment. If a secondary schizoid experiences dissociative disorder due to conscious trauma, their dissociation can be significant. Hence, differentiating between the two based solely on the level of dissociation proves unreliable. Similarly, both categories may exhibit a loss of affect, albeit to varying degrees. Hope this helps to answer your question.

[@normanwatts7318]

Very interesting and informative. I must say that your videos give me a lot to think about.

[@amethystanita168]

Very well presented and explained. The text groupings visualised is a great training tool. It reinforces and acts as a memory aid. Very well done.

[@udonge1043]

this reminds me a lot of self disorder specifically with the demarcation/transitivism category of symptoms. im surprised you havent done a video on that because its crazy dude. also that one thing in the betrayal of the body with the schizoid barricade/retreat.

[@SchizoidVision]

I think I see what you mean... The concepts of self-disorder, particularly the demarcation/transitivism category, definitely align with some of the ideas I covered in my video on hyperpermeability. In that video, I explore how schizoids can struggle with maintaining boundaries between themselves and others, which seems closely related to what you're describing. here's th elink if you're interested: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ipmmknt7eN-Cbsk. I appreciate your mention of The Betrayal of the Body, I touched on this issue in my schizoid true self, false self, and divided self video's, however, there is a lot to this issue and I've been gearing up to make a video that focuses specifically on the schizoid relationship with their physical body.

[@papasmamas1]

I spent many time thinking I had Schizoid, I came across the wikipedia's article about schizoid when I was 16 and thought "yes, this is all me!", 3 years ago (being 30yo) I askes to my psychiatrist to make me a diagnosis, I re.read about all the disorders and thought schizotypal suited me better, and yes, that was the result. I still feel very related to Schizoid, I think in some cases are deeply related. The introspection.

[@SchizoidVision]

Schizoid individuals can have some schizotypal traits, and I think that people with schizotypal personality disorder often start off as schizoid, with the same internal mind body/mind emotion splits.

[@neferzoe]

Thanks ❤

[@vahajqureshi]

So I have been told that i have a combination of schizoid and borderline personality traits. The correlate for my condition is the elevation of 48/84 two point code type according to MMPI2. I don't know if you are a psychologist. If you are, would it be possible for you to infer whether I am a primary or a secondary schizoid? Because it is difficult for me to objectively analyse myself.

[@SchizoidVision]

I understand that it is difficult to objectively analyse yourself. While I'm not a psychologist, I can provide some general insights based on what I've discussed about primary and secondary schizoid traits in my videos. To my knowledge, the MMPI-2 two-point code type 48/84 you mentioned typically indicates a complex personality profile involving internal conflicts, emotional distance, and perhaps some inconsistent behaviors, which align with the mix of schizoid and borderline traits you're experiencing. In terms of distinguishing between primary and secondary schizoid characteristics: Primary schizoid personality is inherently rooted in a person's temperament, indicating that these individuals have always had a schizoid disposition as a fundamental aspect of their personality. This means their emotional detachment and solitary lifestyle are not reactions to external factors or specific experiences but are integral to their personality structure from an early age. Secondary Schizoids, on the other hand, usually develop schizoid behaviors as a defensive response to 'conscious' negative experiences or trauma. Their withdrawal arises as a protective measure to prevent further emotional pain or rejection, they have consciously been through. Given the overlap with borderline traits, which often involves intense and unstable interpersonal relationships, fear of abandonment, and emotional volatility, I would say that it seems that your schizoid traits probably lean towards the secondary type, where there's a reactive element to your detachment. However, it’s important to consult with a clinical psychologist or other mental health professionals to get an accurate understanding of your psychological condition.

[@vahajqureshi]

@@SchizoidVision Great explanation. Thanks

[@SchizoidVision]

@@vahajqureshi You're welcome.

[@tripwire202]

​@@SchizoidVisionGreat, informative explanation. I can follow along even though I'm tired and often struggle with academic concepts. Currently recovering from neurological symptoms so clear information is much appreciated :)

[@jethrobodine9155]

I’ve wondered whether I might be high-functioning autistic, a.k.a. “Aspergers”, but I don’t really fit the techy-obsessive stereotype. I’m not into computers and video games, but more into philosophy and the humanities. Schizoid Angst had an interesting observation in one of his videos that autistics are detail-obsessive while schizoids are big-picture obsessive. I don’t know how scientific that is, but it does seem roughly true, intuitively. I also have the majority of traits of Sluggish Cognitive Tempo. One of Millon’s subtypes is the “languid” schizoid. I’ve been languid all my life. Very lethargic. A major procrastinator. You might want to watch the lecture by Dr. Russell Barkley. It might be relevant to the Primary Schizoid model you’re trying to develop.

[@SchizoidVision]

Interesting. I'm familiar with Millon's schzioid types, when looking at myself through that lens I seems to fit more than one type, but I think that the theory is still useful for considering one's main traits. Dr. Russell Barkley seems to focus on ADHD issues, do you know of him addressing schizoid issues as well?

[@jethrobodine9155]

@@SchizoidVision Yes, he does focus on ADHD, but his theory is that SCT and ADHD are very different. I see schizoid traits in the SCT model, and the sluggishness, apathy, daydreaming explain a lot of my unsocial behavior.

[@jethrobodine9155]

@@SchizoidVision I totally support your development of a secondary schizoid model. I was just suggesting another condition in addition to your autism and avoidant. What I resist is that I am "afraid" of socializing, that I feel "unsafe", because I've been "hurt" Yes, people have been cruel, but hasn't everybody experienced cruelty? I just find the culture of "normal, healthy-minded people who can be "intimate", who are "mature", and get emotional satisfaction from family, relationships, sports, community, etc., etc.--- boring, meaningless and unrelatable. I don't hate or fear them. I just know they're very different kind of people than I am and I don't apologize for how I am. I've tried to have relationships with them. I obviously bore, annoy or repel them in some way. That's fine. There's a tiny part of me that would like to immerse myself in their life, or some parts of it, and actually I have, but it was anti-climactic. I have my sorrows, a sehnsucht longing for an ideal, unattainable past. They have their own sorrows. I've pretty much accepted that as a late-stage secondary schizoid.

[@SchizoidVision]

I see where you are coming from. The Sluggish Cognitive Tempo is new to me, sounds like it is still undergoing research, like so many aspects of psychology, but it could provide a framework that is relatable for many people, because it sounds like it has aspects of dissociation involved, like with the daydreaming etc. I think that the more unique a person is in their way of being, the more likely they will struggle to find people who relate to their personal ideologies etc. Thank you for sharing Dr Russell Barkley.

[@kinderblutsaufenderreptiloide]

Very interesting!

[@yoyok7504]

May I ask, do you feel like your sense if self is more "solid" when not interacting with others? Or is the lack of sense of self a more permanent condition for primary schizoids? If so, how would you describe the difference between being primary schizoid vs experiencing chronic depersonalisation? (If there is any)

[@SchizoidVision]

I would say that I feel more in touch with my own thoughts and more at liberty to explore my own thoughts when I am alone. I am probably more in touch with myself, but I never feel a solid sense of self. I tend to drift in and out of different mental states with little sense of self awareness. Primary schizoids have ego weakness to a greater degree than any other personality type and the splitting that we engage in fragments our sense of self.

[@tripwire202]

I'm curious to know if a character of mine fits schizoid paremeters. Love your channel. It's informative, interesting, and I admire your kindness in how you respond to comments. No obligation to respond - only do so if you'd find it interesting. I'm more than satisfied just to write out my own thoughts - I don't particilarly need an audience so no worries if you don't want to respond. He starts out with hyperempathy. It does not lessen, but his ability to notice and express it does. Instead of crying, he will feel a general sense of anhedonia and purposelessness when around those suffering. He tries to alleviate suffering more out of rote habit and a desire to be a good diplomat more than a sense of satisfaction/empathy. I'm not quite sure if he qualifies due to many of the schizoid like experiences being more accurately attributed to malnourishment. He's chronically ill and can't keep down food well. His body doesn't have the energy to feel or express strong emotions. He has an extreme level of disassociation to deal with pain, living almost entirely in his own head. This continues even after he stops being malnourished, but his emotions are still faint compared to other people's. He's suited to be a solitary acedemic and can happily go months without talking to people - but only if he knows what hes studying can help people in some way - whether that's by honouring the dead by remembering their history or by understanding those in the present better. Aside from paranoia, he feels a general sense of goodwill towards everyone. He doesn't have to trust you to have warm intentions. His actions are close to identical whether you are a dear friend or a stranger due to his personal code of ethics. He thinks it's immoral to change behaviour based on your personal biases and emotions towards someone. Choosing the ethical option regardless of personal feeling is always the correct option to him. As a result many feel shafted, especially friends and romantic partners, like he has no true attatchement to them, even though he's just trying to be kind. He's autistic like me, which might complicate matters, but I do want to give as close to a complete picture as a can.

[@SchizoidVision]

Good to hear you're enjoying the channel and thank you for your positive feedback. One question, to clarify, is this a character you are creating or someone that you personally know?

[@tripwire202]

​@@SchizoidVision A character that I'm creating! I'm incredibly flattered and happy that he sounds like a real person, as that's one of my goals in writing. By the end of writing my story, I want to have improved my understanding of other people. I want the process of writing, the research gathering stage especially, to help link me to the real world and know people better.

[@SchizoidVision]

From the details you've provided, your character does exhibit several schizoid characteristics, particularly in terms of emotional detachment and preference for solitude. However, there are some nuances worth exploring to enhance his portrayal. Based on the traits you've described, your character indeed shows several elements consistent with schizoid personality dynamics, particularly his dissociation and preference for solitude. His tendency to live almost entirely in his own head and his reduced emotional expression-even in contexts that typically evoke stronger emotional responses-are characteristic of schizoid individuals. These traits manifest as a protective mechanism, allowing him to maintain emotional and social distance. His continued emotional faintness and preference for solitary academic pursuits, even post-malnutrition, are very characteristic of someone with schizoid tendencies. Your character's approach to relationships and ethics, where he maintains a uniform code of conduct regardless of personal feelings, can also be seen as a schizoid feature. This objective detachment often leads to interpersonal challenges, as others might perceive it as a lack of genuine attachment or emotional depth. However, your character's hyperempathy doesn't align perfectly with traditional schizoid presentations. While schizoids can indeed exhibit a form of heightened empathic sensitivity, it is distinct from how empathy is typically understood. They can be extremely sensitive to their environment and to the emotions of others, often more than they let on or more than others perceive. Despite this sensitivity, individuals with schizoid dynamics typically struggle with expressing these perceptions and emotions, largely due to their overarching withdrawal tendencies and preference for isolation. Their high sensitivity does not usually translate into active empathetic engagement, but rather into a protective withdrawal to manage the overwhelming input. This internal conflict between awareness and expression is a key component of their interpersonal difficulties. Therefore, they may appear as though they are emotionally cold or detached, as a consequence of intellectualizing emotions to distance themselves from them rather than experiencing them. Your mention of his autism is an important consideration. Autism can overlap with schizoid traits, particularly in areas like social withdrawal and a focus on internal thought processes. It's important to distinguish between behaviors driven by autism, such as difficulties with social cues and empathy, and those more aligned with schizoid dynamics, such as emotional detachment and indifference. Overall, your character does exhibit several schizoid traits, but the presence of hyperempathy and the effects of chronic illness add unique layers to his personality that might diverge slightly from typical schizoid presentations. This creates a rich, multi-dimensional character who navigates his world in a way that is uniquely his own.

[@tripwire202]

@@SchizoidVision Thank you for your wonderful analysis and response. Much appreciated! I will continue to learn about schizoid versus autistic functions to see where he places/fits. Your channel will be invaluable in deeping my understanding of the many ways to be alive. I hope Asran resonates with both autistic and schizoid induviduals. Apologies for the delay - I couldn't think of a good response at the time, and then I forgot. I have limited memory, and I try to use what energy I have to understand fellow humans and our minds work. I'm happy I remembered your comment and got to say thank you Hope you have wonderful days filled with many interesting insights.

[@SchizoidVision]

@@tripwire202 You're welcome :)