How a Mormon lawyer transformed archaeology in Mexico-and ended up losing his faith

[@BunnyWatson-k1w]

This involves two competing theories of Book of Mormon geography. One says the events took place in the American northeast, particularly upstate New York. The other theory says the events took place in Meso America including central America. BYU professors have focused on Meso America and northwest South America. The church has bet the farm on upstate New York. Neither geographic locations have ever located artifacts that would verify the Book of Mormon. There are even some church members who have funded studies to see if the American mid-west or southwestern Ontario, Canada are Book of Mormon locations. Still no evidence has been found.

[@lukegraven7839]

well said. In other words it sure looks made up

[@lukegraven7839]

@@blissmatters4119 the jaredites and Olmecs not the same. Olmecs were real. Jared-ites w ‘horses’ ‘steel swords ‘ ‘ silk ‘ just not a historical thing sorry.

[@blissmatters4119]

@@lukegraven7839 You’re entitled to your opinion. I hope you don’t believe the Earth is flat as well.

[@lukegraven7839]

@@blissmatters4119 the earth is roundish. Just like there’s no planet kolob imo

[@blissmatters4119]

@@lukegraven7839 no doubt it’s interesting how people arrive at their beliefs. You are clearly not neutral so I suspect you are an apostate who once enjoyed the blessings of the gospel. I can feel your unhappiness and lack of peace. The glorious thing about our farther is he doesn’t turn away from those who come to him. The the power and atonement of Jesus Christ enables those who have strayed to repent and change allowing them to regain their standing with the father. It is better to suffer the pain of sore repentance than to be consumed by evil. In the end, the evil one rewards you no good thing. I have a clear conscience and am ready to stand before my Lord. Do you? If not, you can become clean. Just don’t wait before it’s too late. It is a fool and a sign of the followers of evil to condemn things that are good and true. Sadly, those who sin against the greater light receive the greater condemnation. On judgement day, it will better off for those who sin ignorantly than those who had a knowledge of the truth. Is there a Kolab or supreme governing planet? No you say? How can you know this? For you have nothing save your word only, but I have God, the Holy Ghost, all the living prophets, and millions of saints-disciples of Christ that say otherwise. I will follow the living prophets not some evil apostate.

[@MaxwellsUnearthly]

And here we are, still no evidence, anywhere, that book of Mormon ancient civilizations ever existed, not one sword, coin, or Armour. We can find 12,000 year old civilizations that existed in other places in the world, but we can't find BOM civilizations that existed couple thousand years ago. As much as ppl want to say they know this literature BOM is true, it's just as important to know it actually existed, otherwise I can say Harry Potter is real, only because I prayed about it and it gives me the warm fuzzies in my chest.

[@dasonmouser1542]

Actually the Mound builders fit the Book of Mormon perfectly. The adena are the jaradites and the hopewell are the Nephites

[@MaxwellsUnearthly]

@@dasonmouser1542 got any credible scientific articles on these civilizations, their artifacts, their weapons, their coins, their language, what they grew, what their ancestors wrote to colloborate JS and the BOM writings?

[@dasonmouser1542]

@@MaxwellsUnearthly Yes actually in the archaeological record they have found at the Hopewell and the Adena civilizations Had copper armor such as head plates Breast plates, Arm shields arm bands and weapons made of metals such as copper bronze iron and steel. And they’re having over 40,000 artifacts with Hebrew Egyptian and Mesopotamian writings on tablets of clay and stone. Academia however does not recognize any of these findings even though they have them in their basements and they are documented they are not allowed to be on display and I have actually seen a lot of those things. Specifically at the Michigan Institute of archaeology and the Chicago field museum. They have everything that I’ve said all the cold storage is in boxes weapons swords scimitars. they have it all but they’re not addressing the issue because they claim even with all these artifacts which number around 4.8 million artifacts, They say they are all fakes and yet they’ve all been found on official digs from the Smithsonian they put the copper stuff out but they don’t put the iron steel or bronze stuff out and I’ve actually talk to the curators about this and they say they’re not addressing this simply because all The other stuff are fakes.... all fakes! They can’t do that! you cannot just put some thing off because it does not fit the paradigm you say and that’s exactly what they’re doing. Paul and Morgan started this whole thing and they even said they found that stuff but they said they’re fakes.

[@MaxwellsUnearthly]

@@dasonmouser1542 I find this hard to believe, I'm sorry, I'm glad you know this, but I would like to see or read about this, because this is important to read about, if it is true.

[@dasonmouser1542]

@@MaxwellsUnearthly you can read about this stuff. This is a website not based on opinion but facts and years of research. Go look through some articles with an open mind and you will be dumbfounded. BookofMormonevidence.com

[@helorumtheknightsofmambrin2155]

Wait, so you didn't find, made of precious steel, millions of swords, whose workmanship were exceedingly fine?

[@cxarhomell5867]

@@alexwilliamns It is true, though.

[@richarner3856]

@@cxarhomell5867 True Believer Syndrome

[@44hawk28]

I understand the interest. But there is, categorically, not a single point of reference in mesoamerica that is consistent with the Book of Mormon. Every single edifice especially the temples, have stairs on them. That would be forbidden in a Jewish context. Not only does their background and language not come from Hebrew, it can actually be traced back to Southern Asian India. A huge clue is Maya. Which means the way and it comes from those from India, not those from the Middle East. Furthermore, Native American Indians have far more of the X1 pay haplogroup marker in their blood had that is utterly consistent with every Hebrew group on the planet to this day. It is interesting to note that these people in Central America did have a special relationship with their God, and they did fall away from that relationship and became quite pathological it's at least a few instances but they were not people of the Book of Mormon.

[@jasongartner570]

They should have looked at all the things that Joseph Smith actually said about where the Book of Mormon happened. The word "isthmus" is never used in The Book Of Mormon. The word "neck" is used which is one of the possible translations of Niagara. All of Joseph Smith's references to places where the Book of Mormon happened specifically were in the heartland of America. The evidence is there like crazy among the Hopewell region. Oh well. We treat spiritual evidence like it's more important than scientific evidence anyhow.

[@hollayevladimiroff131]

There is no archeology evidence of the Book of Mormon, NONE!!!

[@anthony212459]

That's what happens when the evidence falls flat. They argue semantics of interpretation of interpretation of inspiration and hope you fall asleep and stop asking questions.

[@torta2012]

Your delusional. You're religion is the stupidest set of believes. Its incredibly stupid

[@unrealuknow864]

Mormonism is based off of a bunch of lies by JS. It's a cult

[@stephenjackson7797]

gullible

[@shannonw8075]

JS never said the boom of Mormon took place in South America. JS says that he walked the mounds of the Lamanites and they were teaching their ancestors. That was in New York. Some stupid guy tried to say is was South America but it's not.

[@elistevens6366]

I agree, I think JS intended for the setting of the Book of Mormon to be in the Midwest of the United States. Which is why it's even more phenomenal that two massive battles happened at the foot of the Hill Cumorah (2 Million People were said to have been killed), and yet not a single piece of evidence has been found.

[@shannonw8075]

I honestly don't know what kind of excavation has been done there, what was found, and what was hidden. Do you believe people would want to prove or disprove JS? I haven't heard anything about a large or wide scale excavation being done have you? I don't know how deep they would need to dig or when exactly they would need to look. I doubt the battle was very close to the hill. First, if it was being hidden during the battle so laminites didn't get it, he wouldn't be out where they could see him. If it was after the war, there would be dead people all over the hill. Would he like roll bodies over and dig? I think it's pretty amazing that a man with a 6th grade education could come up with such a story and why he would never say he lied even after all he went through even as a boy.

[@nilesbutler8638]

"JS" also kept changing all the rues when people tried to check the accuracy of his supposed tablets. Good lord, the man was a con artist, everything that is known about him says so. Its not wrong or false to be taught a false belief in childhood. indoctrinating soft-skulled children is what religious people have been doing for aeons and still do. But once grown up, one should learn to accept the falshehoods. We can check shit nowadays, you know.

[@shannonw8075]

What do you mean he was changing the rules? He wasn't a con artist. Yes, he did use the stones for fortune telling when he was about 21 I believe was his age. He was taken to court and actually had some witness that said they found treasure on their property but it was against the law to do fortune telling so he was fined. Being a seer is a gift of the Spirit. People were using cons to take advantage of people. Spiritualism was just getting started. i would like to know where you get that info and what cons you are referring to.

[@richardholmes7199]

Update everyone. The EGYPTOLOGISTS and the ANTI-MORMON cult have been DEBUNKED. Google ''Book of Abraham pt 1 (Why Egyptologists are wrong) youtube''. A video that debunked the Egyptologists by demonstrating Joseph Smith's translation/explanation of the Book of Abraham Egyptian sensen text papyri was never supposed to match up with the translation from that of the Egyptological field to begin with. Basically the Egyptologists and the anti-Mormons are pretty unintelligent for assuming that Joseph Smith's translation of the Egyptian papyri was supposed to match up with the translation from that of the Egyptological field.

[@tylerahlstrom4553]

One small problem with this video. Mr. Ferguson didn't lose his faith in the Book of Mormon! It appears that he was mostly troubled by Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham and struggled quietly with his faith for a time, but towards the end of his life was an active and believing member. He told his testimony of the Book of Mormon and the Church to multiple people and he was working on a book, The Messiah in Ancient America, upon his death. I have that book sitting on my dresser as I write this.

[@blusheep2]

Yet, he never was able to find archeological substantiation for the books claims? I'm not asking this as a hater. I actually love mormons but after all these years the only thing that can be pointed to is loose similarities, possibilities and artifacts in the age of mass fraud. I evaluated Mormonism a long time ago. Spent a couple of weeks with missionaries from the church. Its where I grew to love the Mormon but the most basic of truths teaches us that most that claim one God or another are wrong and believe in error. A critical analysis of Mormonism leaves it pretty low on the list of possible true religions.

[@towardcivicliteracy]

@@blusheep2 "...He never was able to find archeological substantiation for the books claims?" (1) Arbitrarily assumes that only a single academic discipline matters. (2) Arbitrarily assumes, by this, that no other evidence exists (or matters). Obviously, neither are true. Maybe it's time to re-evaluate.

[@blusheep2]

@@towardcivicliteracy Well what do you mean. I'm open to a new perspective. Which academic disciplines matter in this regard? There is archeology and paleontology(maybe). There is textual criticism. There is history. Obviously if we are discussing archeological evidence for the Book of Mormon then we are going to assume that archeology is the proper discipline. I don't understand why this would be an arbitrary decision. (2)I never assumed that other evidence doesn't matter. I apologize if it came across as if I did. Here is the kicker though. When we evaluate evidence, from whatever medium, we must evaluate evidence for AND against. This is where the BoM runs into all its problems. The evidence for it is extremely week... A "Jewish star" on a temple in S.America, a bat used for clubbing that had obsidian teeth and looks something like a sword. An ancient Native American population that had cities with walls(this is a bit better then the others). Consider the common Mormon line. We are told that if we just read the BoM and talk to God about it we will feel a burning in our bosom about the book and no its true. Well, then how does that explain all those who did and don't feel a burning in their bosom? So I would love to hear what evidence you have, and should have by now, for the BoM. Then we can discuss the evidence against and come to a rational conclusion.

[@kennethyoung7564]

​@@blusheep2not really. Ireneaus, origen, papias, and John chrysostom all taught three degrees of glory. Eternal hell became mainstream in the fifth century. And the closing of the canon was mostly an adaptation to the montanist heresy in the late second century. The new testament really does prophecy a restoration. Keep in mind that less than 1 percent of sites have been excavated, and the nephites may have been a smaller society in a pluralistic world. I know you don't accept spiritual witness but I know Joseph was a prophet. Heck my own cousin has had open visions of the pre mortal life. He has no mental illness. I even know of one man who was ministered to by Christ before his death. My grandfather was also healed of a healing problem under the hands of the priesthood when younger. Joseph Smith was everything he claimed to be, in spite of what people may think they know.

[@stephenjackson7797]

Incredible number of head-in-the-sand Mormon trolls in the comment section.

[@blnzoad]

Mexicas have our own myth of creation. All true great cultures does

[@nilesbutler8638]

Every child does. Creation myths abound. Humans like that shit and add to it whenever they can. The world was spoken out of nothingness, was licked out of a giants skull by a cow, birthed by an eart mother, built by angels, ejaculated by the father god, grown from a tooth, sung into existence, smithed from the dark, shit out by a crocodile or cooked out the mother godesses cut-off mammaria - and much, much more. Its all nice stories, but once youve grown up you shouldnt credit them for more.

[@FoxTrot2000]

El calendario maya y el fin del mundo en el 2012 los mantuvo preocupados xd​@@nilesbutler8638

[@wagnerthesilva]

Simple task: xray the hill Cumorah and show the cave or hole where the book of mormon and the other artifacts JS said was deposited there. Don’t need to show the artifacts, just that there is a space, whole or cave under the ground. That’s it.

[@TheSaintelias]

You wouldn’t need to do that if the battle with 1 million dead bodies, armor and supplies are supposed to be all around the hill. That much material wound be an easy and obvious proof. Yet nothing.

[@JoseMorales-ld2lg]

I was born on the other side of the border (Guatemala) and have visited Izapa as well as many other archeological sites and museums in Guatemala. I was also raised in the LDS church though I am no longer religious. I see a lot of parallels in Mayan Culture, legends and even religious practices that do have an amazing resemblance to narratives and theology found in the Book Of Mormon. Not enough space here but I will mention a few just to show there is always TWO SIDES to each story and this lady here obviously only has one side. The "science" side. (She started by saying very little is known about Me so America, indeed in Guatemala there are as many as 50 thousand archeological sites and less than one percent have been attempted to study much less understood. But here are just a few observations from a Guatemalan of Mayan Descent: 1 Mayans wear temple garments in their rituals even today and build altars and kneel to their Ajau (ocush ka and jun tepeu, father and mother in heaven) 2 Mayans in Guatemala in Popol Vuh have parallels to the brothers Hunahpu and Ixbalanque and their other two brothers who are turned into monkeys because of their disobedience (even have the PALO VOLADOR dance to represent them) Book of Mormon mentions 4 brothers also, two good and two who are deterred because of disobedience. 3. The Maize God (corn husk) "hungs" from a milpa (cross) then dies then resurrects and goes up to heaven again. Mayans still wait for his return some day near this 14 baktun we are living in. 5. This same diety goes in the underworld to defeat xibalba (devil) and defeats the snake bird, feathered snake or monster eagle (mexican flag and Quetzal in Guatemala flag) This is called THE DRAGON OR ANCIENT SERPENT in Book Of Mormon that dwels in THE TREE OF LIFE with fruits (San Bartolo Murals, Or ten) and Catus Tree with fruits in Mexican Flag, also represented as a gourd or pumpkin tree (skull tree, fruit of knowledge of good and evil -bible-) Jack o Lantern for Halloween? Stay with me please. All this is BEFORE the Spaniards brought the bible. 5. Popol Vuh and other murals mention the Flood, the creation and the turtle (earth) The Purepexhas told the Spaniards that their ancestors came on top of turtles from the east (book of Mormon boats with shapes as turtles) 6. When Pedro Alvarado fought The Quiché, in Quetzaltenango, the Quiche offered to have a one man to man fight to settle the battle and spare the men lives (like David vs Goliath) The Book Of Mormon has a battle story were they do exactly that also. 7. Mayans sent their damsels to avoid battles due to softening the hearts of their invaders (the Tlaxcaltec Tlatuani gave his daughters to the advancing Spaniards so did the Caciques in Tabasco (Malimchin and 19 other damsels) The book of Mormon mentions this ancient custom in MesoAmerica BEFORE the Spaniards wrote about it, though Joseph Smith (book of Mormon translator) could possibly know a little about Mayan Culture in 1825 this is too deep for a farmer in New York to know. Mayanist scholars are constantly being corrected by New finds and are often wrong in the eyes of Mayans today. In fact they know so very little and their theories are changing by the day. Natives are secretive about their deeper religious knowledge and meaning. 8. Mayans have a ritual were they kill chickens and mix the blood with corn masa and eat it as a remembrance of their god who died and ressurrected. Exactly as the Book of Mormon says the meso Americans did. 9. The numbers 2, 3, number 7, number 5 and number 12 are very sacred in Mayan religion. So they are in the book of Mormon. (The father and the son, the trinity, number of knowledge 70 times 7 must we forgive, 5 stones of David, 12 disciples in meso America etc etc) I could go on and on but as you can guess, religion is based on faith not on knowledge, the scribes and doctors MISSED the birth of Jesus but the peasants and shepherds did not. The wise men did humble themselves but not Herod so all his "scholarship" was for naught. Jesus said "Abba Father, for he have hidden all this precious truths from the scholars and the erudite and hath revealed to the meek and lowly of the earth, for that way it pleaseth there"

[@commoncents5191]

Christ said he was going to visit other sheep after the Nephits. Maybe he went to Guatemala but that history is not in the BofM

[@3D4Ureel]

When looking for answers there’s the path of god and the path of science. Those go to opposite directions, one takes you to satisfactory false answers that are easy to digest, the other one takes you to the bitter truth.

[@dabish2888]

3D4Ureel This video was highlighting Mormonism, not Christianity. Are you familiar with the differences?

[@RB-zh1eq]

There are none.

[@JustViolet626]

I'm a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (a mormon) and I can say that science and religion do go hand in hand when you look at it correctly. I love science and do know that a majority of things scientists claim are correct. For example, evolution does exist and I know that, however, I do not believe humans evolved from anything.

@@dabish2888 Sure, they are as different as Coke and Pepsi.

[@richardholmes7199]

Google ''Book of Abraham pt 1 (Why Egyptologists are wrong) youtube'' everybody. The EGYPTOLOGISTS and the ANTI-MORMON duplicates DEBUNKED by demonstrating that Joseph Smith's translation/explanation of the Book of Abraham Egyptian sensen text papyri was never supposed to match up with the translation from that of the Egyptological field to begin with.

[@grasonicus]

Interesting and well presented. No fluff, just information.

[@blissmatters4119]

Mostly misinformation.

[@ancientanswers]

Book of Mormon happened in North America not central.@@blissmatters4119 Nephi even says this.

[@mattkaustickomments]

Cmon, you can say you thought it “ludicrous” and not just “strange”.

[@bonniebeaumier2919]

Try Wayne May. This poor lawyer became disillusioned because he spent his whole career trying to prove the wrong spot

[@KB-nv4bl]

Exactly! Wayne May has it figured out.

[@joshua.snyder]

Wayne May is a money chasing, charlatan whose ideas are unfounded, cultural appropriation.

[@JollyJaro]

​@@KB-nv4bl Wayne May will be just as delusional

[@chn9285]

all these hate must stop. stop hating churches in general. only God can judge not You people. Let the mormons worship God the way the want it.

[@kevinpyne24]

That's the thing about faith, if you have it, no proof is necessary, and if you don't, no proof will do.

[@rodneyross607]

Not true. Knowledge must come before faith.

[@rickdavis2235]

Kevin Pyne KEVIN WROTE: " That's the thing about faith, if you have it, no proof is necessary, and if you don't, no proof will do. " Many people in the world have the wrong impression of faith. They think that faith is something that is blind, believing that those who have faith are those who believe in something that has no evidence. Paul said in 2 Corinthians 5:7, “For we walk by faith, not by sight,” but notice that he did NOT say “For we walk by faith, not by evidence,” because in Hebrews 11:1, it says, “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” We are told as Christians to only believe something after it has been proven or evidenced. We have tons of evidence for the Christian faith. Sadly, Mormons cannot make that claim.

[@blissmatters4119]

Incredibly inaccurate in all the aspects that matter. For an accurate description of the truth, I recommend the the book exploring the lands of the Book of Mormon second edition. I will correct the most egregious errors. The Book of Mormon contains a history of Jesus Christ dealings with a remnant of the house of Israel. Specifically, 3 groups of people that were descendants of the tribe of Judah, the tribe of Ephraim and the tribe of Manasseh. The Jaridites arrived ~2000 BC. When the Book of Mormon was first released, the experts of the day ridiculed its author because there was no knowledge of a people that early. Since then, non-believers not only see the evidence of this early culture but have found evidence that suggests the Maya and Aztecs were significantly influenced by them. For example, it is believed the Aztec and Maya calendar came from the Jaredites/Olmecs. The experts of today call the Jaredites Olmec. The next group of people were landed in the americas ~600 BC. They were called Mulikates . Mulek was one of the sons of Zedikah. The third group of people was a contemporary of Zedikah. The patriarch of this family was the prophet Lehi. He and his family and a few others were guided to the Americas. Two of Lehi’s sons were named Nephi and Lamen. Lamen and his brother Lemuel rejected Christ . They With their wives and other dissenters parted ways and became known as Lamenites. After Lehi died, those who followed Christ were called Nephites after the prophet Nephi. Those who denied Christ were called Lamenites after Lamen the first ruler of the dissenters. As The remnants of the three peoples mixed, those who followed Christ were called Nephites those who were enemies Christ were called Lamenites. Lamenites who were converted to the gospel became Nephites. An equivalent comparison to Nephites and Lamenites today would members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and non-members.

[@TLMcRae-uu1cz]

People will believe what they want that supports their particular agenda. If one reads the Book of Mormon and prays about it, they will know for sure that it is true...if they are sincere. A lot of people are not sincere, and choose to tear down a religion that has so much truth to it. That will be their downfall. Agency is agency, and people can believe whatever they want to believe.

[@richharkness5942]

My great uncle Archeologist professor at byu was on that expedition. He spoke 14 languages translated their book into Greek and he wrote his diary in Spanish. I went on my sales trip for the church to Argentina. Many pictures he drew like the liahona was put in the paper back book of mormon. He wrote his paper after his return presented it to the church. They wanted him to change that they could not find the truth and excommunicated him as a heritic. Your own leaders should be excommunicated today for their fraudulent act with the SEC. Lose their temple recommends they are not honest in their dealings

[@grasonicus]

“People will believe what they want that supports their particular agenda.” Amen, brother. That's the story of people, they think with their hearts, not their heads. That's why a con man like Joseph Smith can so easily trick them. And admit they were wrong? That's the last thing they'll do.

[@Ether-pb5gb]

The evidence of the Book of Mormon does not point towards Mesoamerica, but to the midwest/northeastern USA.

[@Ether-pb5gb]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/o3KnfmaIjrCfa7s

[@REDEYEDFEELiN]

Jackson county Missouri to be exact lol

[@Ether-pb5gb]

@@REDEYEDFEELiN Ether 12:26

[@KLFD530]

Reformed Egyptian is BS. Joseph Smith was a liar

[@beboystyle620]

What evidence?

[@youngchristianboy]

If the Book of Mormon is the Truth, why did he contradicts the Bible?

[@dasonmouser1542]

In the book of Mormon it does not talk about an isthmus. The narrow neck of land is where the sea divide the land and not the land divide the two seas that’s what happens in Central America and North America however the sea divides the land A.k.a. the great lakes so all along scholars have been looking in the wrong place. Hop on mound builders match the nephites perfectly and the time frame and in Culture so do the adena with the Jaradite’s

[@atheistapostate7019]

ROFL... The "Heartland Model" HAS been disproven TIME and TIME again! For starters IF "Lehi" DID arrive in the America's, Florida cannot fit the location for geography, NOR can the Great Lakes work, your Sea West is broken up and you end up with a "sea" in the south BUT land south of that were Florida. Second the OLDEST mound is from approx 10,000 yrs ago and at the HIGHT of its civilization there were NO MORE than 2000 people, WAY WAY under the claimed numbers of TENS OF THOUSANDS according to the BoM accounts.... Issue there too, the BIGGEST ever community is located in the Louisiana Delta FAR from Missouri and the claimed site for Zarahemla. THIRD ISSUE... Smith HIMSELF STATED that it WAS more than likely IN Mesoamerica. I'm former LDS, I have heard this silly BS before and I HAVE RECENTLY done a video DEBUNKING the Heartland Model, it IS a frigging JOKE of a "model".

[@BenMcrea61]

The Book of Mormon took place in North America - not Central America. The plates were found in New York State - not Mexico.

[@rickdavis2235]

Ben McCrea BEN WROTE: " The Book of Mormon took place in North America - not Central America. The plates were found in New York State - not Mexico. " There were no plates found. Joe was a 14 year old boy when he allegedly found the plates. He had a lame leg that caused him to limp yet, by his account, he ran through the woods being chased by men carrying plates that would have weighed in excess of 200 pounds under his arm.

[@hermanramos5919]

Mexico belongs to North America not Central America, They aren't evidences that they were plates,And there ain't such thing as golden plates they're no evidence that Jesus visit America, They're ain't no evidence of the nephite end Lamanite the book of Mormon is a fictional book.

[@jackburton307]

@tapir rider very predictable, troll.

[@1234567890sunshine]

Wait so I'm confused. Why did finding out that the glyphs were from the book of the dead shatter his faith. What's the difference in what Joseph Smith was saying and the scientific findings. (I'm not mormon, I just didn't understand the conclusion of why this was a faith ending revelation).

[@wadeb5042]

1234567890sunshine Yeah, that wasn’t explained very well. I’ll try to sum it up: Joseph Smith claimed to translate an ancient Egyptian text into The Book of Abraham which basically retells the Old Testament story of creation and details some events and visions of the life of Abraham, the Old Testament prophet and origin of the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Islam, and Christianity). The original text that Joseph translated was supposedly lost in a fire, but it was later recovered and Egyptologists were asked to translate it. Turns out that it had nothing to do with Abraham or the Old Testament. So the Egyptologist translation has nothing in common with the Joseph Smith translation. When a Mormon learns that they can conclude that Joseph didn’t have the gift of translation that he claimed to have. What this has to do with the Book of Mormon is that Joseph claimed the BOM was translated from ancient plates through the “gift and power of God.” We don’t have the plates to be able to do a similar comparison as was done with the Book of Abraham. If you just look up Book of Abraham on Wikipedia you can find more comprehensive info.

[@ejoshcoron]

well said!

[@dabish2888]

He was looking for archaeological evidence for the events and people of the book of mormon. This didn't, and never will, materialize because it is a fictional book.

[@lukesteele4510]

+Walter Bored Correction. some fragments thought lost with the main scrolls in the great Chicago fire that Joseph had were recovered but the main scrolls by all reports dozens of feet long are confirmed as having burned in that famous Chicago fire. Though there are similarities between those fragments and the book of Breathings there are also notable differences as well that could easily be overlooked. Because the main scrolls were lost we really can't do a comparison of it either so like the Book of Mormon it still requires an element of faith, and since Faith is how God works i think that may be by design.

[@Pren10]

Walter Bored, good summary accept that's not the whole story. One of the most common phenomenon associated with glyphs, and the diagrams on them, is that the diagrams almost never associate with the immediate surrounding text. Also, the book of Abraham was translated from scrolls that equated to dozens of feet in length. The only scrolls that are recovered today were the burial rights. Not the important scrolls. Both of those came with the mummies that Joseph purchased because he was required to purchase the entire collection. The gold plates are protected but you can read the statements of all of the witnesses of the gold plates many of whom later became estranged from the church but NEVER denied or recounted their witness testimony even though they were pressed to do so. There are many reasons why some don't want to be LDS but unfortunately "because it's isn't true" isn't one that holds up.

[@chrismoore2429]

The point is, about the book of Abraham and the papyri text not being accurate is that the lord worked through Joseph’s own mind trying to figure these things out with his personal revaluation, he wasn’t supposed to directly translate it, he was used to get gods point across

[@stephenjackson7797]

bull

[@samlee5514]

While mostly factual, the interviewee makes one claim around 2:30 that no evidence was found. This is a false claim, but hey, got to say anything to support your assumptions ig

[@ThomasJDavis]

She said Thomas Ferguson thought he would find _proof_ of the BoM any day while he was there and not only did it not happen then, it hasn't happened since. edit: There has been no direct evidence found for the BoM ever. What apologists point to is all completely circumstantial evidence.

[@stephenwarren9355]

@@ThomasJDavis it’s fine to not accept the evidence that has been found as that is your prerogative, but please don’t try to pretend that none has been found. From Nahom and Ishmael, to Beit Lehi, to Hebraisms, Chiasmus, lidar scans of Central America, genetic discoveries, etc. One cannot in good faith examine the Book of Mormon and its history, without coming to the conclusion that either Joseph Smith was the single greatest human mind to ever live, or he was a simple minded man who God called to fulfill a greater purpose. It matters not how much evidence emerges for the book, enemies of our faith will continue to deny it.

[@christopher6082]

There are lies, damn lies, and there’s the Book of Mormon.

[@johnharvey4448]

Chris Kendall Lies exist. Damn lies exist. The Book of Mormon isn’t lies.

[@richardholmes7199]

LDS scripture are not lies. Google ''Book of Abraham pt 1 (Why Egyptologists are wrong) youtube''. A video that DEBUNKED the LIES your anti-Mormon cult have been saying about the Book of Abraham translation. The Book of Abraham translation was never supposed to match up with the translation from that of the Egyptological field like the Egyptologists and the anti-Mormons were dumb enough to have believed.

Brainwashing a soul is most easily done. Easy to the extent as to which, it would be most difficult for victims, to war with their inner souls and liberate themselves from the "Mental Enslavement" !!

[@bryan3673]

There are lies, damn lies, and those who are damned because they lie about the Book of Mormon.

[@workermannamrekrow2768]

What lies in the Book of Mormon are lies.

[@iconacy]

never bought into that Mexican theory in meso America it was always in murica

[@mr.champlinssciencechannel906]

Even less archeological evidence for that hypothesis.

[@1goldenugget]

His mistake was putting the story of the B of M in central America. It's in N. America and can be found in the ruins of the "burial mounds" in the Mississippi valley. Other possible evidence can be found in the surveys of the Army Corps of Engineers as they came across ancient "forts" in the states of Ohio and Illinois in the 1800's. They were told to bulldoze the "forts" down. The book of Abraham and the funeral papers, though from the same group of artifacts, are from two different books. Aloha

[@Z3kyTw0]

Please tell me this is a joke lol

[@marksanders2168]

🤦

[@rickdavis2235]

There is no archaeological evidence for the book of Mormon anywhere. No traces of cities, civilizations, artifacts, coins, pottery, battle sites, weapons, skeletal remains, and most importantly, not a single ancient manuscript from any of the alleged Mormon prophets. There's a Mormon Ph.D. Egyptologist that has debunked the book of Abraham and he's one of their own. Here's one of his quotes: "…..when you start doing [Mormon] apologetics you've got to twist the evidence. That what we have just doesn't support us. You've got to do something to it. You've got to manipulate it, you've got to move it, you've got to put quotes together from tops and bottoms of pages and stuff like that.” - Dr. Stephen E. Thompson, Ph.D. degree in Egyptology from Brown University in Providence, Rhode Island. He is the second LDS scholar to earn a doctorate degree in Egyptology. We still have Romans, Jews, Egyptians, Greeks, etc. We still have Alexandria, Rome, Carthage, Jerusalem, Bethlehem, and so on. When archaeologists dig where battles were held in Old Testament times, tons of evidence is exposed; skeletons with weapons, shields, chariot parts, buried villages, coins, pottery, names of biblical characters etched in stone, etc. of that time period. The Mormon books have the same problem as the Qur'an. Mecca is described as a major city on the major trade route with fertile valleys, abundant fruit, olives, trees, etc. Mecca is in the middle of the desert. There is nothing growing there, there are no ancient maps depicting Mecca as ever being on any trade route and when they excavated in and around Mecca, they found nothing and then digging was halted just like what happened at the hill cumorah in NY state in an attempt to save face. There's only one true Gospel that was handed down by the Apostles. Joseph Smith failed all of the bibilcal tests for a true prophet of God. Anyone following his teachings that started out with monotheism and the holy trinity to evolving to polytheism and many gods, will not have eternal life.

[@remorselesscuckslayer2318]

@@Z3kyTw0 No he is serious. Delusional but serious.

[@jackburton307]

@@Z3kyTw0 there will always be Mormon hater trolls lol

[@phav1832]

There is no way to take the extremely narrow and limited evidence that archaeologists have access to and prove or disprove anything with the clarity that many who are so quick to condemn the Book of Mormon claim.

[@richardholmes7199]

Being ''quick to condemn'' is the anti-Mormons biggest achilles heel. For example Google Book of Abraham pt 1 (Why Egyptologists are wrong) youtube. A video that DEBUNKED the EGYPTOLOGISTS and the ANTI-MORMONS by demonstrating Joseph Smith's translation/explanation of the Book of Abraham papyri was never supposed to match up with the translation from that of the Egyptological field to begin with. In other words, the anti-Mormons and the Egyptologists assuming Joseph Smith was supposed to translate the Egyptian papyri figures the same way that an Egyptologist would is what debunked both the Egyptologists and the anti-Mormons. As they were ''quick to condemn''.

[@curtisowen3233]

There's definitely enough to call bullshit. From DNA to archeology to swords horses chariots and elephants. Imagine just for one moment that maybe, just maybe, he made it all up. Just like all those hundreds of other religions you think are made up. Swallow your pride and be honest. Its scary to lose something as large as that faith, trust me I know. But you will be so much happier when you leave behind the lies that are your worldview and expectations for a fairytale afterlife.

[@rickdavis2235]

P Hav wrote: " There is no way to take the extremely narrow and limited evidence that archaeologists have access to and prove or disprove anything with the clarity that many who are so quick to condemn the Book of Mormon claim. " Christianity has tens of thousands of ancient biblical manuscripts. Mormonism has zero. They allege that their prophets lived during the same time in the Christian arena and yet there isn't one single, solitary manuscript from any of their prophets. We still have Greeks, Romans, Hebrews, Jews, Ethiopians, Arabs and other biblical cultures that exist today. We can visit Israel, Egypt, Africa, Rome, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Jericho, the City of David, Mount Arat, unearthed Semitic villages in the Land of Goshen (exodus) or the Red Sea. We have excavated civilizations that left behind coins, pottery, skeletal remains, weapons, tools and even biblical names engraved in stone. When archaeologists excavate a battle site, they find evidence of a battle. Mormonism has nothing. They're still arguing about where it all took place.

[@brucelloyd7496]

You are digging in the wrong place. The Book of Mormon events happened in ancient America, NOT Mesoamerica. The river Sidon is the Mississippi River. The Great Lakes are the East and West Sea.

[@laughman7357]

What if I told you.. ancient America is a time period and Mesoamerica is a region. Would your head explode at the thought of how stupid what you just said was? You meant North* America and there isn't evidence to support the historical accounts given in the book of Mormon. This is a religion that attempts to rob the American Indian of their own culture by telling them they are descendants of a sinful people lead astray from not only Israel (which backed peer-reviewed science even by LDS scientists has proven false and continues to cement with every year) but that they are lead astray from God and morality. Theres nothing wrong with being in the church, or living by the bulk of the guidelines the church represents. Theres a massive problem with perpetuating a false narrative consistently disputed by multiple fields of science and denying the tradition and culture of the indigenous populations of the Americas which is racist and disrespectful. Ah fuck it. You've made up your mind why do I even bother Edit: Also Google ancient America sometime. Guess what regions it will tell you the bulk of the civilizations were located in........Mesoamerica 🤯

[@hollayevladimiroff131]

There is no archeology evidence of the Book of Mormon!

[@workermannamrekrow2768]

No religion can prove anything. But they all believe their own myths.

[@Brutici]

@@hollayevladimiroff131 there literaly is: nahom

[@marcusbrockman3133]

Elvis is alive Tupac is alive. People make all sorts of claims.

[@ericlopez7120]

Lol. No one would even know about Ferguson, who was a lawyer, had he not lost his faith. There were a lot of people part of this expedition who gained faith after the expedition. Good video overall though.

[@Useenworld]

Ive been a less active Mormon for over 10 years. My advice is the same! If you really wanna know for your self if the book of Mormon is true... just read it and pray and ask genuinely, and you have the right to be answered from God... I mean, who better to tell you...

[@hollayevladimiroff131]

The devil!!!!!!!

[@UtahKent]

Not likely, she's a "scientist ". No room for faith.

[@Dyslexic-Artist-Theory-on-Time]

Thanks for sharing!!!

[@TheBensMeister]

The book of mormon didn't take place in mesoamerica. Should never put your faith in archeology. "Science" - A guy loses his faith over a false assumption about geography. Of course the information on the scrolls is common. How many copies do we make of any popular book? I kept waiting for science, but it turns out this wasn't about science after all. What is the correct translation of this common document?

[@rodneyross607]

More from there Heartland Model. It is riddled with falsehoods and does not stand up to scientific evidence.

[@johnvillaflor2723]

Watch out for the discovery of the hidden ancients cities of the amazon forest

[@EricLovesCHRIST]

LOL I love how there is credits for this XD

[@amandadangerfieldpiano]

Our faith is (or ought to be) in the Lord Jesus Christ.

[@thetexasrapper7496]

Getting something wrong doesn’t make something not true, how many graves in Jerusalem and how many places do people claim was this or that?

[@rickdavis2235]

The Texas Rapper wrote: " Getting something wrong doesn’t make something not true, how many graves in Jerusalem and how many places do people claim was this or that? " Archaeologists have unearthed all kinds of biblical cities, battle sites, biblical people's names. The bone boxes of Lazarus, Mary, Martha, Simon bar Jona, and others were found in Jerusalem. We know where the Pool of Shiloam is, Jericho, the City of David. We have stones engraved with the names of Pontius Pilate, Prefect of Judea and the one who tried Jesus. We have stones with the name of Tiberius Caesar, the Roman emperor during Jesus' time. Every time they dig in the biblical arena they find something.

[@jamesyates9311]

After reading the many comments below I think the most important point is faith. If someone has faith in something, that means it can't be proven through science. If someone is going to Mexico to prove to themselves that their faith is true they will never find what they are looking for. The book of Mormon is not a history book. It another testimony of Jesus Christ. It is a book about faith. If you believe in the Book of Mormon then You don't need to prove anything to anyone. It is your faith in God that matters. And for everyone who has the uncontrollable need to prove someone else's faith is wrong you will never understand what it means to have faith. So move on. You actions are not make the world a better place. You are simply bullies who are trying to compensate for something missing in your life. So go find something positive to do with your life and leave good people of faith alone.

[@ThomasJDavis]

So I take it that your comment in this public comment section is only meant to preach to the choir?

[@workermannamrekrow2768]

Gobble gook.

[@zenosvillondo9965]

I do not believe science and religion are diametrically opposed, but that our current understanding is lagging behind what religion fortells

[@lukesteele4510]

+Zenos Villondo I would say that our current understanding of both is lagging but growing together day by day.

[@leonardfacturanan9494]

The Church of JesusChrist of Latter-Day Saints ( Mormon) is true . I testify that book of mormon is true . Prayer is answer to all your question :)

[@workermannamrekrow2768]

And Muslims and Jews and others all believe they have the true faith. Just because you testify that you know something is true does not make it true. People have faith in many different ideas and gods and so forth. Does that mean that they all have the truth?

[@joycezabriskie6827]

Wayne May who has searched and studied mounds along Ohio and in that area of America has found evidence of wars fought. The narrow neck of land can be any narrowed piece of land such as in New York and Lake Ontario and Niagara area. The more we research the more interesting things get.

[@stephenjackson7797]

gullible

[@solisprime2669]

Plus it's states that after Christ death but before he appeared to the people much of the landscape was altered from cities buried, burned, flooded, etc the landscape changed.

[@Ralph419]

Wayne May is not an archaeologist. His claims have been refuted by archaeologists and genomicists.

[@Brutici]

@@Ralph419 source?

[@Ralph419]

@@Brutici See Civilizations Lost and Found: Fabricating History, Part Two: False Messages in Stone by Professors Lepper, Feder, Barnhart and Bolnick in Skeptical Inquirer, Vol 35, No 6

[@purpleboye_]

You lost your faith for placing it on a crumbling foundation: the expectation of finding evidence in a particular place. The sad part is that the evidence you are looking for may well be out there, but you quit when you didn't find it where you wanted.

[@hollayevladimiroff131]

There is no archelogy evidence anywhere of the Book of Mormon!

[@GAILandROD]

there is plenty in the US. NOT GUATEMALA

[@torta2012]

@@GAILandROD you're delusional

[@hrothgarnogar]

He didn't lose his faith in the end though: "And Thomas Ferguson’s son Larry recalls sitting on a patio with his father shortly after his father had returned from a trip to Mexico with Elder Howard W. Hunter of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. It was only one month before the senior Ferguson’s entirely unexpected death. “For no apparent reason, out of the blue,” Larry recalls, Thomas Stuart Ferguson turned to his son and bore his testimony. “Larry,” he said, “the Book of Mormon is exactly what Joseph Smith said it is.” Sometime earlier, Ferguson had borne a similar testimony to his wife, Larry’s mother, and, during the year before he died, he had participated in an effort to distribute the Book of Mormon to non-Latter-day Saints." "Ein Heldenleben? On Thomas Stuart Ferguson as an Elias for Cultural Mormons," FARMS Review of Books, 16/1 (2004)

[@richardholmes7199]

Notice the anti-Mormons don't include what you typed, leave it out they say. Just like the Egyptologists being debunked in 2014, the anti-Mormons leave that part out when they publish more bigoted anti-Book of Abraham youtube videos.

[@ThemTwoJays]

Don't know how anyone can spend any amount of time on anything religious. Like if you have to try prove its real, you obviously know its fake lol

[@ThemTwoJays]

Yes they are?

[@richardholmes7199]

None of the Mormon scripture has been proven as fraudulent.

[@samlee5514]

Scientism: the belief that if science cannot prove or discover something it cannot be real or true. "It depends on a non-scientific position to take the position that only science authorizes us in taking positions worth taking...the very claim itself shows us that the claim cannot be correct" ~ Christian Smith, PhD

[@Pren10]

At best this accurately told the story of Ferguson. It did not explain anything else with much accuracy though. Thomas was always on the wrong trail. Interesting how this video conveniently just randomly slid that bit about the papyrus scrolls in there. Those 11 small decayed fragments of papyrus were with the collection but not the exact scrolls Joseph translated the book of Abraham from. those few funerary page couldn't have possibly held enough information on them to fill an entire volume of scripture. Neither do they fit eye witness descriptions of the scrolls that held those books. Anyways, this video might be an accurate description of Thomas Ferguson, but nothing else. Especially not the facts.

[@richardholmes7199]

Yes, it appears the translation of the Book of Abraham had to have came from a scroll we no longer have. What we know for certain though is the Egyptologists were proven wrong for assuming Joseph Smith's translation of the Egyptian papyri was supposed to concur with the translation from that of the Egyptological field. Not that a damned anti-Mormon will admit to it though.

[@tylerahlstrom4553]

The video didn't get the facts about Ferguson right. He struggled with his faith for a time, but died a believing Latter-day Saint.

[@torta2012]

You must be a lameatnight and day. Mormons have the most stupid beliefs in the world. You are not Christians. You believe in sexual god, who has no resemblance to the God of the Bible. Your all lame

[@grasonicus]

“Those 11 small decayed fragments of papyrus were with the collection, but not the exact scrolls Joseph translated the book of Abraham from.” Why did he have them, then?

[@MrTikalvideo]

just be patient....very soon overwhelming evidences will show up. Science is becoming very sophisticated and the proof of the veracity of the book of Mormon will show up. Is this particular place in Chiapas Mexico was wrong... well lets keep digging in other places.

[@amandamcgovern5744]

come on.. you don't actually believe this..

[@hollayevladimiroff131]

Joeseph Smith is a fake, he has lied to millions of people!!

[@richardholmes7199]

The guy based everything on false assumptions. By the way, take your hate full video elsewhere Science Magazine.

[@workermannamrekrow2768]

Was he affiliated with Jack West?

[@thiagones]

Great story. Loved your article!

[@clarasuccess]

I am a Mormon, and I saw vision of God in our Mormon Temple in New York and God healed me from auto accident that no doctor could heal. I also have lots of miracles after I joined this Mormon church "The church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". To explain briefly, scientists (human's wisdom) can never be smarter than God.

[@dusky4151]

It’s wonderful for you to believe that! But just know that you cannot expect anyone else to believe based on your personal experience, which is experience no one else has had

[@clarasuccess]

@@dusky4151 I am NOT the only one. There are millions of LDS faithful members testify The Book of Mormon is true. I invite you to read The Book of Mormon yourself. There are so many testify there miracles from God e.g. Saints unscripted youtube, etc.

[@dusky4151]

@@clarasuccess Ive read the Book of Mormon no less than 12 times. I have never received anything but radio silence from god. There are millions of Jehovas Witnesses that say the exact same thing too, that God told them it was true. Why should I take your word over theirs? Or Catholics, who also say the same thing?

[@grasonicus]

@@clarasuccess There are also millions of Muslims who'll testify the Quran is true, millions of Hindus who'll testify their writings are true, millions of… What is your point?

[@clarasuccess]

@@dusky4151Do you have personal revelation as you joined your church? I was skeptical about Mormon long time ago, that was why I didn't receive answer from God whileback. In order to receive answer from God, one has to be reading The Book of Mormon (whole book) without skepticism and humbly pray to God to repent also.

[@zandersturgill]

There were a ton of Mormon scholars involved in these expeditions who's faith in the scriptures were increased. Tons. Whereas there was only Fergusson who left due to incorrect expectations.

[@oliverdownunder9397]

Zander Sturgill Prove it. More mormon garbage...where's the proof?

[@richardholmes7199]

@@oliverdownunder9397 You are all the same.

[@oliverdownunder9397]

Richard Holmes Yes we all know what a ridiculous scam Mormonism is.

[@richardholmes7199]

@@oliverdownunder9397 According to the anti-Jesus bigots.

[@oliverdownunder9397]

Richard Holmes only the fake Jesus of Joseph Smith...a completely different Jesus to that of the New Testament....completely different and made up!

[@henochparks]

hahaha Joseph Smith pointed to North America not Mexico. This guy is not very bright

[@yolo204]

The reason why they chose Mexico because it was the closest to the Book of Mormon as far as evidence... the closest civilization to have the things they talk about in the Book of Mormon as far as steel Swords, chariots, and coins were the Mayans and Aztecs in southern America... it’s the reason the church runs the archeological foundation in Mexico...so you laugh at the one guy who came closest to solidifying the authenticity of the bom... because even he came up short...

[@henochparks]

@@yolo204 I laugh at those who do not consider the words of Joseph Smith who knew where the events of the Book of Mormon took place. Update there is more new evidence in support of the Book of Mormon in the Northern part of America.

[@nerdnul]

The great LDS Exodus has been caused by the mass exposure of mormon doctrine to the common mormon. People across the globe now have access to data never before available. People are thinking and not just accepting a 'feeling' prescribed by a church. The LDS faith is a dying artifact of an early American culture of greed, deception and criminal activity. It lingers today as an example of how Satan's work on Earth can hold captive educated people in a family/social polytheistic cult. Joseph Smith developed doctrine which fooled thousands into believing they too can be a god and control your own planet. He said that the god we worship was once a man like us but because he was a good mormon - he became the god we worship. (This is mormon doctrine; not mine). Smith was a known liar and story-teller. He had what he called a "seer stone" which he said gave him power to find treasure. Smith was a convicted swindler who decided he was entitled to marry 34 woman, of which 2 were 14 years old. Smith attempted to print his own money, build his own army, and declared himself a king. After being wanted for treason against the United States, Smith was killed in a gunfight. History, logic and wisdom have destroyed the LDS faith. As mormons have more tools of education and access to the actual historic record - not just the revised version, they are simply walking away from a cult. American folk religion and con artistry are sticky; - wisdom is the solvent. Joseph Smith was a con artist who fabricated a snake-oil folk religion into a self-serving, ego-feeding, lust filling cult. Smith fed his lust, greed, and ego and it continues to do so for the LDS leadership today. Now that there are open volumes of data available for inspection, the LDS faithful are departing in a massive exodus. The Book of Mormon has been exposed as to what it is; a prop for a con. There is no real or actual evidence to shore up the frail story and geography of BoM. There is no DNA evidence to support this Jew Indian Theory of theirs. Ironically, the best evidence against the BoM are all mormon sources and doctrine. The history vacuum plaguing the LDS faith cannot be filled by revelation knowledge from a prophet or a mormon's testimony; God does not leave us blind. We must call the LDS church what it is - a criminal enterprise began by a con man that continues today.

[@henochparks]

@@nerdnul you on crack right?

[@nerdnul]

@@henochparks Affirmative. Cracked open the Bible last night and read God's Word. You know, the one with maps in it because it is the truth Word of God. Unlike old Joe Smith's prop for a con you fell for. Did you crack your head?

[@rn6045]

Most of you Christians commenting dismiss our Mormon beliefs as myths and yet hold tightly to the fact the world is 7,000 years old and that Noah took two of every kind of animal on his ark 🤔🤔🤔

[@richardholmes7199]

@Kid Meoli Google Book of Abraham pt 1 (Why Egyptologists are wrong) youtube.

[@goodstory5890]

@@richardholmes7199 why don’t you go and watch the Dan Vogel videos on his findings on Abraham? You will get more information there.

[@markthefishguy]

Nope . USA is the place ..now after the BOM we know they went all over.

[@johnnyboy6429]

So let me get this straight. The 215 miles of underwater caves with pottery, culture, and bones is dated back to 11,000bc... and only in 2,000 bc people stopped being hunter gatherers? So we knew about culture and technology for 9k years and only settled 2k years ago? I call nonsense.

[@21LAZgoo]

yessir

[@johnnyboy6429]

@@EricM-gm5wz i did a slip. Forgive me. But the oldest civilization to date is actually Gobekli Tepe

[@johnnyboy6429]

@@EricM-gm5wz thats veeeeery old thinking. Gobekli Tepe is considered advanced enough to have planning and agriculture enough to supply men enough to build hundreds of pillars in concentric circles with detailed motiffs on them. You cant have Gobekli Tepe, nothing of significance, and then suddenly Sumeria/Mesopotamia. It doesnt work. Oh and there was also basic writing found there. But I agree no pottery.

[@kevingaimler7473]

Faith is about The Man, Jesus. Nothing else. The church won’t specify locations. It’s about the Man.

[@workermannamrekrow2768]

Then why did the LDS church produce the film Ancient America Speaks around 1972.? The Church itself seemed to push the Mexico, Central and South America ruins and artifacts as evidence of the B of M location(s).

[@LDSChristian]

This is a very misleading article and video. The individual mentioned here, Thomas Ferguson, did not lose his faith over the archaeology at all, but over a completely separate issue based on the Book of Abraham. Science magazine has pulled an old switcheroo here. The Book of Abraham should be discussed completely separately as there are answers to be found for that question as well, starting here for those who are interested: kzbin.info/www/bejne/fGKclWh5ob-AjdE If your not interested, that's fine, but don't give me any anti-Mormon rhetoric over it.

[@LDSChristian]

Mormons have a greater claim to the name "Christian" than any other group out there, especially anti-Christian idiots like yourself. Rant all you want, but HISTORICALLY Christians were so named because of the CHRISM. Have you been "chrismed"? You do not even know what it is. Chrismed means "anointed with oil". Here's the historical and biblical record: Bible - But the anointing (Greek: chrisma) which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing (Greek: chrisma) teacheth you of all things, and is truth (1 John 2:27) Augustine - but as we call all believers "Christians" on account of the mystical chrism St. Cyril of Jerusalem - Having been counted worthy of this Holy Chrism, ye are called "Christians" Gospel of Philip - The chrism is superior to baptism, for it is from the word “Chrism” that we have been called “Christians”, certainly not because of the word “baptism”. Rabanus - he is forthwith anointed on the head by the priest with Holy Chrism, and be called a "Christian" after Christ. So, get off your egotistical high-horse and learn how to become a real Christian.

[@MrWackypackages]

the catholic and orthodox faiths have had anointings with oils since their beginning, 2000 years ago

[@LDSChristian]

I appreciate your response, because when I first researched this I could find nothing on Catholics performing the sacrament of Confirmation with chrism oil. I know of no Catholics who have been anointed with oil (except in the case of sickness). I have talked to Catholic bishops and scholars who knew relatively nothing of the Chrism. Can you provide a source that it is still in use today by Catholics? Orthodox faiths, on the other hand, do use the Chrism oil for confirmation.

[@MrWackypackages]

LDS Christian Well, anointing with oil is one of the major parts of the catholic sacraments of baptism and confirmation. I've been to many baptisms where the priest anoints the people (usually babies) with some oil. Also, I was recently at a confirmation where the priest anointed each of the 18 people receiving that sacrament with oil. www.catholiceducation.org/en/culture/catholic-contributions/the-use-of-sacramental-oils.html

[@LDSChristian]

Thank you, I will have to revise my views of Catholics. I'm unsure why the Catholics I talked to were unaware of it. Perhaps they did not understand the word "chrism", which may have caused a language barrier instead of just saying "oil".

[@karlshaner2453]

It is sad when a man loses his faith based on the wisdom of man. Maybe he should have considered all the similarities in other ancient texts concerning Abraham and the translation the Lord revealed unto Joseph.

[@nilesbutler8638]

No, thats not sad, thats good. One should rejoice. If something is provably false, no one should believe it. If a religios dogma or superstition is provably, understandably false, it should be dicontinued. If the reality of the world shows a "sacred" text to bu humbug, its not the reality of the world that should be doubted. Faith in a lie is wort nothing! Worse, even. Its a sin against creation.

[@karlshaner2453]

@@nilesbutler8638 Only an idiot and the devil would rejoice in a man's loss of faith. Show me every faith on the planet, and I will show you, men, searching for truth. Show me a man who rejoices in others losing faith and I will show you one who does not understand truth. If you are a Christian please feel free to study your Bible. If a Muslim the Koran. All paths will lead to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ if a man refuses to give up his search through foolish pride and ignorance.

[@psychonauticparadox6106]

Karl Shaner we should rejoice that he found truth, even if that truth is inherently bitter. It takes astounding courage for a man to confront and accept unpleasant facts. Ignorance is bliss, but truth is liberation from lies.

[@nilesbutler8638]

@@karlshaner2453 No. An idiot is the person who has found out a truth, but then denies it because he/she has been told coddling religious lies all his life. Its a joyful moment, when people can let loose the idiocy and manipulation they have been indoctrinated with as children. And if a religious person knows this and still persistently tries to propagate the faith, the person is a despicable liar. There is no standpoint more dishonest than missionary religion on the basis of untruths - which Joseph smiths writings have a lot of. Faith on the basis of lies is neither moral nor helpful.

[@karlshaner2453]

@@nilesbutler8638 Thank you for clarifying your position. Care to list a few citations of the proofs that Joseph lied?

[@legendre007]

Interesting!

[@jeremiahsturk8982]

Book of Mormon did NOT take place in Meso-America!!!

[@chile_en_nogada2090]

What the hell was the point of this video when you didnt even talk about the figure with the tree and people which is the most interesting part

[@terryortiz7280]

When scholars and academics jumped on the Meso American model they ignored the teaching of the prophet thus lost their way and took down many with them.

[@workermannamrekrow2768]

Watch The film Ancient America Speaks from 1972 that was indeed produced by the LDS Church and you will be left with the notion that the Book of Mormon took place in Mexico and Central and South America.

[@workermannamrekrow2768]

And if that is the case, then the so called inspired representatives of God on earth led many astray did they not?

[@FaltosoO]

mormon bla bla bla

[@llgoldstein2710]

Yeah, you will lose your faith when you focus it in the wrong location. Joseph Smith said it took place in the United States. Look to the Hopewell and Adena cultures.

[@nilesbutler8638]

Joseph Smith lied the whole book into reality. there have been no semites in america in the olden times. its just something the con man smith dreamed up in a much more gullible time.

[@dontcallmetravis]

Please don’t call us “Mormons”. It’s a little rude.

[@alananat6628]

Stop whining.

[@workermannamrekrow2768]

Stop being delicate. Haven't you seen MEET THE MORMONS?

[@AndrewMechamIdaho]

Says nothing of the actual topic, highlights a man who lost his faith due to unrelated issues and lack of research.

[@goodgirlkay]

Andrew Mecham Dude, the Book of Mormon is a fairytale, even worse than the bible, because the tribes and places in the bible actually existed. Of course, all the supernatural bullshit never happened. But the BoM even made up the tribes and places. They never even existed. LMBAO!

[@billyhunt7867]

and where did all those ruins come from?

[@tlotus3032]

Billy Hunt the Olmecs Mayans Aztecs etc.

[@tlotus3032]

Andrew mecham he searched for proof of the bom in meso-America, his foundation is still searching, they still haven't found any. The book of abraham that Joseph smith also translated was just another fragmentnof the Egyptian book of the dead that he very very crudely mislabeled. E.g. Labeling Egyptian Goddesses as gods etc.

[@deweydewey6714]

Get up to date! Where is the hill Csmorah? Wher did the Lord send Jiseph Smith when He sent Him to the Lamanites? Why did Joseph Smith state that we were crossing the plaines if the Nephites on Zions camp march, etc., etc., etc.?!? You need to get up to date and see the videos by Rod Mildrum snd Wayne May!!!

[@Ralph419]

See Does Mitochondrial Haplogroup X Indicate Ancient Trans-Atlantic Migration to the Americas by Raff and Bolnick and Civilizations Lost and Found, False Messages in Stone by Lepper, Barnhart, Feder and Bolnick

[@Tails92Halcmm]

That is because he looked in the wrong place. Got to go to the mounds.

[@Spaseebo]

With respect, "LDSRaichuguy", WHERE is YOUR evidence? Is it available on the LDS website? May we have details? Do you have photos? Can you supply written material from recognized archaeologists? It appears that you are merely making a baseless claim. The Book of Mormon presents BIG problems that cannot be explained away: LANGUAGE: 1 Ne. 1:2, etc., states that Hebrews who left Jerusalem and came to the Americas spoke Egyptian. It is a known fact that Hebrews spoke Hebrew, and their records were kept in Hebrew. Egyptians were their enemies. It is absurd to think that Hebrews would have written their sacred history in Egyptian as to think that American History would have been written in Russian. In Mormon 9:32, 34, it is state that the language was "reformed Egyptian" and that no other people knew their language. There is no known language called "reformed Egyptian." DESERT FRUIT: 1 Ne. 17:5 talks about ample fruit and wild honey being products of Sinai desert (called Bountiful). Not possible! DESERT TIMBER: 1 Ne. 18:1 talks about ample timber that these Jews used to build a ship. There is not ample timber in that area. It was a desert. It still is a desert. LAMAN RIVER: 1 Ne. 2:6-9 mentions a river named Laman that flows into the Red Sea. There is no river there and has not been since the Pleistocene era. BOTANICAL PROBLEMS are many in the Book of Mormon. Wheat, barley, olives, etc., are mentioned, but none of these were in the Americas at that time. ANIMALS: North America had no cows, asses, horses, oxen, etc. Europeans brought them hundreds and hundreds of years later. North America had no lions, leopards, nor sheep at that time. Honey bees were brought here by Europeans much later. Ether 9:18, 19, lists domestic cattle, cows, and oxen as separate species! They did not even exist in the Americas at that time. The Book of Mormon also mentions swine as being useful to man. Maybe, but Jews would not think of swine as being useful or good; swine were forbidden, unclean animals to them. Horses, asses, and elephants were not in the Americas either. And what on earth are "cureloms" and "cumoms"? No such animals have ever been identified anywhere. Domestic animals that are thought to be "useful" would hardly become extinct. Ether 9:30-34 talks about poisonous snakes driving sheep to the south. The Book of Mormon states that the people ate the snake-killed animals, all of them! (v. 34). Hebrews would not have eaten animals that were killed that way. Chickens and dogs did not exist in the Americas at that time either. BUTTER is also mentioned, but it could not possibly exist, since no milk-producing animals were found in the Americas at that time. CLOTHING MATERIAL: No silk and wool clothing (or moths) existed at that time either, contrary to 1 Ne. 13:7; Alma 4:6; Ether 9:17 and 10:24. BEHEADING: Beheaded Shiz --- Ether 15:30-31 says that after Shiz was beheaded, he raised up and struggled for breath! MISCALCULATIONS: In Ether, chapter 6, we learn that furious winds propelled the barges to the promised land for 344 days! Even if the winds were not "furious" but, for example, blew only 10 miles per hour, the distance traveled in 344 days would have been 82,560 miles, or more than three times around the world. Absurdity, to say the least! And why would the Lord instruct Jared to make a hole on top and bottom of each barge? (Ether 2:20). POPULATION: When Lehi left Jerusalem, according to the Book of Mormon, his group consisted of fewer than 20 people. Yet 19 years later the people had so prospered and multiplied in the Promised Land that they built a temple of which the "manner of construction was like unto the temple of Solomon: and the workmanship thereof was exceeding fine" (2. Ne. 5:16). Looking at what the Bible says about the construction of Solomon's temple, we find that it took 30,000 Israelites, 150,000 hewers of stone and carriers, 3,300 supervisors (I Kings 5:13-16) and about seven years to build it (See also I Kings 6). And how many people could Lehi have had in his group after 19 years? The book further tells that in less than 30 years after arriving on this continent, they had multiplied so rapidly that they even divided into two nations. Even the most rapid human reproduction could only have resulted in a few dozen in that brief time, and most of them still would be infants and children and about one-third older people. Not only did they divide into two nations, but throughout the book, about every few years, they had devastating wars that killed thousands (i.e., Alma 28:2). SKIN COLOR: Beginning after the first 19 years or so, Laman and Lemuel and their descendants and followers (!) turned dark skinned because of their disobedience (2 Ne. 5:21). According to the Book of Mormon, dark skin color was a curse from God! This change of skin color takes place throughout the book. In 2 Ne. 30:6 we read that if Lamanites accepted the true gospel, they became "white and delightsome" (and since the 1981 printing of the Book of Mormon, they became "pure and delightsome.) But if they left this true gospel, they became "dark and loathsome." People's skin color does not change if they believe or do not believe! Nor is the skin color a curse! The Book of Mormon teaches that Indians originated from these Jewish settlers. Indians are distinctly Mongoloid. They have the "Mongoloid" blue spot, specific blood traits, and their facial features are of typical Asian origin, not Semitic at all. Current DNA evidence has confirmed this as well. Questionable Materials for This Time Period In Ether 7:8-9, we read of steel and breakable windows (2:23) in Abraham's time! Try to explain that to an archaeologist. Steel was not even developed until about 1400 years later. At the end of the Book of Mormon, Moroni tells about a great battle that took place on the Hill Cumorah. Over 200,000 people, armed to their teeth, were killed on that hill. The story tells about Their weapons, breastplates, helmets, swords etc. Nothing has ever been found on that hill or anywhere else in this continent. As a matter of fact, metal, helmets, swords, etc., do not disappear in a mere 1400 years. Before the LDS Church purchased the Hill Cumorah, it was literally dug full of holes and even caves, but nothing was ever found. (Joseph Smith told about a cave inside Hill Cumorah and how they - he and Oliver - went in and out of it. Supposedly it had wagon loads of gold plates, Laban sword, etc.) When people dig even for worms in the Holy Land, they make discoveries. In contrast to the Book of Mormon, cities, places, coins, clothing, swords, etc. mentioned in the Bible have been found by archaeologists, but not one single place mentioned in the Book of Mormon has ever been identified. There are still people in the LDS Church who believe that archaeology has proved, at least to a degree, the Book of Mormon. Some missionaries are still using slide presentations of ruins from Mexico and South America, implying that they prove the Book of Mormon, but they are from an entirely DIFFERENT TIME PERIOD and are ruins of idol worshipers who offered human sacrifices. further: www.namb.net/apologetics/the-truth-about-mormonism #

[@richardholmes7199]

@@Spaseebo Google ''Book of Abraham pt 1 (Why Egyptologists are wrong) youtube''. The ANTI-MORMONS (such as yourself) and the EGYPTOLOGISTS DEBUNKED. Oh, that's right. You know that.

[@Eeilza]

I agree pretty much with the host but think about this.... Why are there these Pyramids all around the world? right? Pyramids = Egypt?

Because it's an obvious idea.

[@Eeilza]

@ Interesting take but they are somewhat different in design but for sure the Israeli doesn't look like a Native American Indian I don't see that comparison.

@@Eeilza The Mormons claim that native Americans are the lost tribe of the Hebrews. They claim many completely absurd things.

[@Eeilza]

@ I know the Mormon Missionary's had me read the Book of Mormon and 2019 I read it cover to cover and couldn't wait to be done with it because it just got to be a rehashed slew of stories over and over again. I do like the Mormons though they are very nice people and about the only Americans I get to talk with in Asia.

[@Eeilza]

@ Ha haaa well.... I want to be more informed and when people like yourself or Mormons I'm somewhat ready for questions but you have a point, it's sort of like a skill I want to be able to have decent conversation. I begun reading the Old Testament after I read the Book of Mormon and that actually my original request from them I needed a KIng James version of the bible and they brought me one along with the Book of Mormon and sort of encouraged me to read that first... I thought the Book of Mormon was stories or the other books left out of the Bible so I was interested and then like I mentioned earlier I found out pretty quick it was a book of fiction.

[@JustViolet626]

Oh, cool. We would rather not go by Mormons anymore as it is not Mormons church, so either call us by the church's full name or lds. (I don’t really support the church anymore but I don’t feel like deleting this comment so that I can show my growth as a person)

[@JustViolet626]

@ That's pretty interesting.

[@JustViolet626]

@ Well, good luck finding somebody to comply.

[@quacks2much]

BenjaminFranklin99 In the late 70s, my Elder’s quorum president, who also worked at a bentonite plant with me, and was my home teacher too, smoked marijuana. I don’t know if he lied to get his Mormon temple recommend, or if he just didn’t know he was breaking the Mormon Word of Wisdom that prevents smoking or eating whacky weed. Temple Recommends were denied for illegal drug use (if the Mormon admits it).

[@xxtraspesh]

Ligma

[@jamesbaldwin7676]

Any archeological evidence, in support of anything other than what is already commonly taught and accepted, is going to be automatically dismissed, discarded and declared fraudulent. It's really no use to present any evidence contrary to published, textbook material. Any scientist or archeologists, who suggests otherwise, is quickly discredited or even accused of planting or manufacturing evidence. So I choose to listen to everyone, but believe whatever I choose.

[@anthony212459]

The mormons lead the archeological studies in hopes of manipulating history. But justice was done. By the grace of god.

[@jamesbaldwin7676]

@@anthony212459 I told you I listen to everything and I've heard you too . Let me tell you what I heard... You hate all things LDS, Book of Mormon etc.. And (according to you...so does God.) Is that about right? Well in this Country, according to law and the grace of God, you are free to believe or not, anything you choose, but so are we. I think that's something we both agree on? If you choose to be a hater, that's your choice, but do you also tell God what side to take and then speak for Him? Anyway, I'll make a note of your bigotry and distain.

[@anthony212459]

@@jamesbaldwin7676 Bigotry????? This coming from a man who represents a church who blatantly tells cultures their own history? Bbaahhahahahaha No I don't think I speak for God only convicted fraudster racist treasure hunters who stick their head in a hat can claim that.

[@jamesbaldwin7676]

@@anthony212459 OK now that we've traded insults, do you really think, that the Holy Bible is easier.to accept as the word of God, or that Biblical stories have come to us in a much more believable manner? Or is this just a case of the pot calling the kettle black? Tell me why, the Bible is the absolute word of God, while the Book of Mormon cannot possibly be anything but fraudulent? What makes Mosses believable but Moroni, nothing but a South Park Joke?

[@anthony212459]

@@jamesbaldwin7676 You're barking up the wrong tree if you're going to use the inconsistencies of the bible to justify you claims. If you want to tear the bible down I'll get a pin out and start taking notes. Try again.

[@danilobulseco1064]

Archaelogy to prove the Book of Mormon is true? Here’ s how to prove its truthfullness: And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.- from the last book Moroni

[@president234]

The is the most insincere way of proving its truthfulness. Denying all the evidence because you feel contrary to the matter

[@MsJaneel]

Maybe narrate the video when you're better at it....

[@delsage5952]

This video is just anti-Mormon propaganda from a woman who obviously never read the Book of Mormon. It was not the Nephites who built the city of Zarahemla which is what this "Scientist" is referring to. It was the Mulekites who inhabited the city, which could've arguably been built by the Jaredites, a people that inhabited the same lands and built cities immediately after the tower of Babel came to an end. Furthermore, in the Book of Mormon the city of Zarahemla was destroyed, so it's obvious the woman in this video has never read the Book of Mormon and is just spewing propaganda. It is fine for people to have questions, but don't lie to everyone about someone's faith when you are obviously just reading a script and have no idea what you are talking about.

[@richardholmes7199]

This video is just like the anti-Book of Abraham videos against the church, spliced, one sided. Google ''Book of Abraham pt 1 (Why Egyptologists are wrong) youtube''. That video proved the Egyptologists and the anti-Mormon christians wrong by demonstrating Joseph Smith's translation of the Book of Abraham Egyptian papyri was never supposed to match up with the one from that of the Egyptological field to begin with.

[@jerrygrover3026]

There actually has been a significant amount of archaeological research that does correlate the Book of Mormon taking place in Mesoamerica. www.bmslr.org features a few.

[@mstissy9605]

Jerry Grover yeah right where’s the proof?

[@mstissy9605]

Not some white delusions but actual proof that’s been proven by scholars!

[@mstissy9605]

Jerry Grover That’s not facts! That book is written by a Mormon. Where are non Mormon archaeologists who can conform the book of mormon

[@kolehiyals4908]

Ms tissy book of mormon is written and abridged by Mormon and his son Moroni. Try to ask a missionary. Open your heart and youll understand. I was like unbiever of mormonism but when i started reading the book of mormon after the missionaries had introduced it to me, i felt that this church tells the truth. There is something mysterious that makes me believe that it TRUE. So do you

[@larrycorett1032]

@@kolehiyals4908 the something mysterious you refer to is called evil. I believed the book of mormon for 45 years. GOOD luck.