Seraphon Points and Battlscroll UPDATES ~ Kroak Bomb is dead. Saurus is on the rise!

[@CalebHastings]

Sample list leaning into the new unit coherency and point drops: Allegiance: Seraphon - Constellation: Koatl's Claw Leaders Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur (260)* - General - Command Trait: Vengeful Defender - Artefact: Sotek's Gaze Skink Starpriest (130)* - Spell: Heavenly Frenzy Battleline 6 x Aggradon Lancers (380)* - Reinforced x 1 6 x Aggradon Lancers (380)* - Reinforced x 1 30 x Saurus Warriors (540)* - Spears - Reinforced x 2 Units 5 x Raptadon Chargers (150)* 5 x Raptadon Chargers (150)* Core Battalions *Battle Regiment Total: 1990 / 2000 Reinforced Units: 4 / 4 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 160 Drops: 1

[@TheGurroruo]

Before the new book, I was definitely a monster person but with the new book monsters just haven’t been it for me. I’m really loving the idea of going hard into the Saurus realm and just having a huge body of troops, so your list is exactly where I’m headed right now.

[@Lyth13]

Are those lancers using spears or clubs?

[@CalebHastings]

@@Lyth13 I think I like Spears better. That extra rend is tempting. Statistically... I think they work out to about the same damage on average.

[@Erikjust]

Question in alot of tournament lists i have seen they use endless spells. Is there a reason they aren´t in your list??

[@CalebHastings]

@@Erikjust Looking back at this list, id definitely make some changes after getting a lot more games in. I'd drop Warriors down to 20. I'd swap out Carno for Astrolith (same load out). Swap Starpriest for Starseer! Ha. That leaves us plenty of points for Maelstrom/Gemenids/etc.

[@dougnorquest602]

Kroak bomb was cheeky fun at first, but I'm fine with the change, i just wish the Trog had a corresponding points drop.

[@Lyth13]

I was already leaning into coalesced because I liked the Saurus more than skinks but this just made it even better.

[@aos-markus]

Just wanted to let you know how much I appreciate your content. You are my #1 source of info for Seraphon and would love if other content creators for other factions would be more like you :D Keep on recording these great videos!

[@DracoX215]

I've figured the maim and tear on the scarvet on carno was always for Monsters. I saw the oldblood as a all rounder and scarvet as a monster fighter.

[@GeneralPuni]

I knew the bomb was gonna get gutted. I’m more excited to be running packs of 6 aggradons and now with a scar vet on Aggradon now for those bonus attacks

[@bob3ironfist]

The correct way to fix the kroak bomb was by saying you can only vassal cast each spell once per phase. That way you can still vassal cast other spells.

[@nikolajzaremba2419]

Thats actually a good alternative to still give SB enough potential and not killing the Vassal mechanic entirely

[@umdieecke6266]

Exactly 💯

[@marcojacomedelangel2756]

That or just adding a clause to Celestial Deliverance to not be able to be cast through Vassal. Makes sense thematically and mechanically. Now Arcane Vassal is almost useless

[@marcojacomedelangel2756]

About the stormcast, i think you meant Domitan's Stormcoven, not Questor

[@husklife8314]

As someone who almost always plays coalesced, these changes are awesome!! Great vid man!

[@darkmatter7678]

Its been a long, rough ride for us saurus lovers, but been enjoying games lately and this just helps.

[@apatheticrabbit]

That coherency change is so nice.

[@stoickes]

Would love to see the new damage calculations!

[@seraphoncobus]

Im happy steggies went down. Feels like we can do stegadon battleline again

[@davidfortin6437]

Awesome, thank you Caleb

[@DJMexiMelt]

Too many people kitbashing new warriors into guards. GW had to do something

[@Erikjust]

Is there a way to make a Seraphon (competitive) list that basically pumps out spells like its nobody´s business. Or has those lists fallen into the background being replaced with a close combat list as ruling the meta??

[@Healadin]

Is there any way, or strat, to play against OBR nul merid? I played a game last night against a Arkhan, Katakros, 20 mortek guard, 10 mortek guard, 3 stalkers, 5 death riders and 2 foot hero wizards (can remember the names). I played Koatl's Claw with with an old blood on carnk, 6 aggradons, 30 warriors, 10 skinks (for battleline), a slann, starpriest and starseer for buffing my army as offensive spells are shrugged off on a 2+. As expected it was quite hard to get through the mortek guard with the aggradons and carno as he shieldwalled my rend after my roar failed to go off. After that I got stuck in the meat grinder that is the mortek guard and got piled upon by the rest and stuff died. The warriors were quite tough and the carno as well with thickly hide scale. He was able to negate the -3 rend from Katakros, but still took a lot of damage on the first exchange.

[@BeefyCrunch]

1 spell per frog through the vassel

[@aaronreeve7374]

This is great! Very excited to run more saurus

[@jayeshhoho]

big brain idea: Teleport your Kroak instead of the Trog

[@gravyjones9746]

lmao ya nerf the kroak bomb but leave Teclis in the game thanks gw

[@PT84]

I'm happy trogbomb got FAQ out of the game. It was not fun for opponents to lose their entire backline on T1. Now I don't feel bad for playing dinos.

[@CalebHastings]

Yep, makes sense. I kinda wish there had been a different solution... but i'm not sure what. Ha

[@apatheticrabbit]

Yeah. It was pretty easy to see this one coming.

[@sanhedrin]

330pts gets 2 units of Rippers and a Ripper chief. Three toads, 33 wounds, 12 inch move, and a good target for Hoarfrost if you can improve the rend on their teeth attack. With the toad, you're looking at 9 attacks from one 110 unit at 3+/2+/-3/2.

[@sanhedrin]

I'm talking myself into liking Rippers. The toads are a built in bonus that doesn't require a wizard or command point to buff. And playing 3 or 2 and a chief gives you 3 toads to spread around, which should be enough to hit the priority targets. Makes me wish they were battleline.

[@sanhedrin]

3 units of rippers with the toad bonus do 22 to someone saving at 4+, for 330 points. For 300 points you get 2 units of chargers (with geo bonus) that also do 22 to someone saving at 4+. But 3 units of rippers has 27 wounds while 2 units of chargers has only 20. Same 12 inch move, etc. Worth looking into!

[@zachboyce9728]

Honestly, Kroak bomb just fine just without trog. It was always better that way anyway, you just lean into chargers more. Or bring a bridge to teleport Kroak home

[@oldragnar2746]

Hi, where I can find the rules of stormcast unit that allows the second Agradon unit to fight first in the combact phase? I'm going crazy looking for it😢

[@CalebHastings]

I think I may have said the wrong name in the video. It IS one of the new Stormcast warbands... But it's name is.... Domitan's Stormcoven. wahapedia.ru/aos3/factions/stormcast-eternals/Domitan-s-Stormcoven

[@oldragnar2746]

@@CalebHastings thank you so much!! 😀

[@mritsscottie]

I was looking for this too!

[@Willireallyam]

Hi, noob question. I've looked for the download, but the only new points I can get are the old ones. Am I missing an obvious updated download?

[@Ignatiusofantioch87]

In order to make Kroak bomb work you HAVE to teleport Kroak with your second slann which doesn’t seem worth it imo. You could invest in spell portal to try and double up but you’re just paying extra points for less efficiency because even spell portal is only one spell per turn

[@DustinDalziel777]

With point drops on Stegadon, Bastilidon, and Oldblood on Carno is it enough to make Thunder lizards viable? Also, how do the new points play into your prior tier list video?

[@grimmhammerfist5174]

Love the video. Have one ?,if you run a unit of 6 Aggradon Lancers do you have to have 2 musicians and 2 standard bearers or can you go one of each and have 4 with spears?

[@CalebHastings]

The standards and musicians all get the same attacks that the spears get... So there is no downside to taking them. The standards and musicians are all just purely bonuses. No downside. See Core Rules Section 22.3.1 Command Models

[@kevinengel2134]

I disagree with your assessment of the Scar Vet Carno. I was tied up in combat with a Khorne foot hero, a unit of flesh hounds and a bloodthirster (that had 13 wounds on it from a previous turn) and I killed all but 1.5 dogs bc I whiffed on the jaw attacks. He just becomes a hero/big game Hunter

[@corner1137]

Question: When using arcane vassal, is the one spell still unbindable through the oracle, or do we treat the text box as above? (Sorry, I'm fairly new to this game!)

[@piffling2238]

Stegagedon might be dead but bringing a single Stegadon with groundshaker at 260 is something to consider for any army. I am confused why Engine of the Gods didn't get a points reduction.

[@CalebHastings]

Ah, I forgot about the EoTG!!! Poor EoTG is the unit that most needs changes to fix it!

[@piffling2238]

@@CalebHastings haha. Guess GW also forgot about it 🤣

[@d.c.4545]

The engine will sit right next to the screaming bell on the shelf, which is what GW intended apparently. GW really over values high risk turn 4 summoning.

[@aaronsomerville2124]

Are these Q&A citations drawn from an online document? I cannot find AoS FAQs online right now.

[@CalebHastings]

Yep, here ya go: www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/7JzgTwuVssyCCJdU.pdf

[@aaronsomerville2124]

@@CalebHastings Thanks! Google kept taking me to dead links for some reason.

[@sebastiandodson189]

Overall good changes guess I don't need to rush painting all these endless spells for Kroak bomb😂

[@umdieecke6266]

Why are the skinks getting more expensive? And as much as I can understand the change for Kroak, the changes and higher point costs are too much. We will see. I'm glad that one or two things have become cheaper for my skink army as well. Unfortunately I still do not have a good idea

[@CalebHastings]

Yeah, odd point increase!

[@sururu6]

yup no way they cost more than 70p lol, only 10w and dont do any ranged dmg,and really bad melee dmg too

[@echtalion]

Do these changes affect the new Seraphon army book?

[@MrJadeskies]

Stegadons are back!

[@lestrike2707]

Mhm. Once the spell lore of SB and Coa gets switched thise two subfactions might be equals

[@CLAREROMVoid]

But this unit coherency doesn't work (I'm new at this, please go easy on the noob here)... 2 model units simply can't fulfill such coherency requirements. They can't have one model vertically and horizontally at the same time. What I'm missing here?

[@BidnessGoose]

Scar vets feel like they might work if you brought two of them to fight one monster

[@AsteroidTVGaming]

ty for the video man

[@nikolajzaremba2419]

Great Summary Caleb! I´m sade about the Arcane Vassal changes, i feel like there could have been another change. Do you think a Trog vassal nerf alone could have been enough of a change? Cause if your using small Skink Wizards (before the changes) as vassals, your more restricted on how and what you can MW bomb. I feel like that wasnt OP or anything. Now you have to rethink Starborn

[@CalebHastings]

Yeah, that's what I thought they would do. Restrict monsters from the teleport. It would have forced more careful planning and not as much range turn 1, while still keeping the overall strategy similar. But... Oh well.

[@nikolajzaremba2419]

@@CalebHastings i like the alternative bob3ironfist presented in the comments: only vassal each spell once. But yeah, the change is final and now Starborn needs some more tactical build and play. Also, thanks Caleb for your awsome Seraphon content!

[@AzurielMist]

As a new player, I am kinda glad it has been addressed, my friend is building Seraphon and we are all looking to learn together. Seen some online games where the "trogg Bomb" was dealing out 30 to 45 mortal wounds in their hero phase.... just seemed so unfun. Edit: Unfun for the non-Seraphon player XD

[@darkmatter7678]

I agree the change was needed but not playing op combos is always an option, especially in friendly games. Your friend would be better off starting out with a base Slann anyway. Mine never lets me down, I haven't fielded Kroak in years.

[@paudimension2365]

I have played against trobb Bomb a few times and can say confidently that it was not fun for the Seraphon player either.

[@TheWolf1334]

For the Scar Veteran on Carnosaur would you roll 20 dice if you allocated 20 wounds into a block of 20 warriors ?

[@PikaStew83]

No you only roll the number of dice allocated at the end not how many wounds you do. So in monsters could be good on saurus you’d roll max 1 dice.

[@teryanshadowstorm6882]

No surprise really the trog/kroak bomb got hit hard, it was too strong. But it probably was our only truely competative list... so how competative are we now? Coherency changes makes Aggradons & Krox a good bit better since the whole unit can now attack more easily. Jaws are now useable, still not huge damage but much better than they were. Telepathic sumons: expected but sad, really couldve made it just outside 9 + no move or no monsters both probably wasnt needed. Look out sir is a bit a of a pain especially with this being a

[@DannyWadeson]

There's no way it was the only competitive list. And now Coalesced is competitive too. So, don't worry ;)

[@kenl9995]

@calebhastings and @chat I'm still going to try and make it work! Slann will be taking Merciliess Blizzard for the arcane vassal spell. With +2 to cast and the ability to use a primal dice that should be a 62.5% success chance with the average damage of the spell being 14 mortals. 1st Kroak cast will be Tepoks beneficence on Trog before moving it. Kroaks one vassal spell will still be celestial deliverance with a 85% chance to do 5+ mortals. With Astro Bearer stellar tempest is a 30inch cast, with a priority of target a unit of 10 or more with 3.3 mortals average per every 10 units. Kroak third spell is Comets Call, with +4 cast we are at 50/50 for the 10+ to pick d6 units with a minimum damage of 1 and a maximum damage of 18. I'll likely cast Cosmic Crush with the Trogg unless something else is in range. A unit of 10 with 5+ armor will average out to 3.3 mortals. Probably going to summon in Skinks with the Cosmic Power but Cleanse the Realms is also an option for max bomb output. Depends on how many units are within range, if it's 3 units then we get an average of 10.5 more mortals. For a grand total on average of 44 mortals. Granted this just tabletop math, in game will change the totals with how many unbinds the enemy has and dice will be dice but I believe this is within the realm of average. Obviously not as good as it was but I'm going to see if this can hold its own. If I messed up any of the rules or my math doesnt look right please let me know.

[@vanrussell4072]

Blizzard has stipulations in the spell description that it's range cannot be increased and you cannot use arcane vassal. The caster itself has to be within range.

[@kenl9995]

@@vanrussell4072 unfortunate! Where did you find the text specifying that? I've been looking around and can't find it

[@vanrussell4072]

@@kenl9995 in the GHB. There's several GHB review videos if you don't have the physical copy or links to the leaked version.

[@h3adcrabbio]

so skink oracle on trog is like C tier now again right

[@Rave.-]

Well, im glad I watched this video before I spent $200 on a box. Literally neutered Seraphon spellcasting. GG GW, I'm out.

[@sebastianschwalmweichel1020]

Can't you just tp kroak himself and use soulscream bridge to tp him back out in the following movement phase. No risk and still 4 spells

[@CalebHastings]

Possibly, but much harder. I need to put it on the board to test, but I'd imagine he will teleport out of range of Astrolith... Which makes him VERY easy to screen out his damage (just stay 3" behind screens).

[@sebastianschwalmweichel1020]

@@CalebHastings Aaaah that is true but he could still just damage the screens if there are multiple units of them within range. The spell is just better at hero killing

[@sebastianschwalmweichel1020]

i was also thinking he could do the 4d6 spell but he can't know it since he is unique :(

[@Rave.-]

The more I watch, the more I don't understand these changes. You say they changed it so it's not overpowered... but it never was. Just look at the winrates. It isn't Seraphon going 5-0 in tournaments right now.

[@nicksurename5392]

Starborne is still gonna be Good AF and I will be able to run it with less guily, woohoo

[@PikaStew83]

My KC list went down by 155 points! So now I can lose my starpriest and add a slann! My 6 Aggradons have deleted most things they’ve charged so happy about the coherency to be better!

[@CalebHastings]

Awesome!!

[@davelee6002]

GW still being the world's biggest wargaming company making rules writing mistakes like a tiny garage startup manned by two dudes in their spare time. (And even then.... )

[@rodahg5051]

millionaires in a garage you mean... laughing about how the world keeps buying their overexpensive plastics toys, while they change the stuff it can do with some text. over and over...

[@davelee6002]

@@rodahg5051 change by quite a lot too! They make you keep buying and own multiples of the entire range for your faction if you care about attempting to play the optimal army compositions in the future. The 9th Age is the far more player friendly system for sure

[@sururu6]

like always dinos haters won, and kroak got deleted instead nerfing him. only good part is book is balanced now, nothing is good but not so many scrolls are unplayables, now most of book is only weak/okish. at least bites got half rule fixed. only need to fix the 1" part, doing them bad

[@Rave.-]

Seriously though. I just came back from 2 decades ago playing Lizardmen in fantasy, and my first thought was "damn this entire codex is kinda shit, huh? Well at least I can still cast spells well." Aaaaaaand it's gone. Saved me some money, not getting back into the game though.

[@sururu6]

@@Rave.- well.. miniatures are amazing, thats the most important part to collect an army. but is a bit sad when something is too bad, i hated how kroak list was played, but numbers showed it wasnt op, so gw should have change it instead only deleting it

[@Rave.-]

@@sururu6 looks like they've got Riot's balance team. They nerfed the ability but then still also hiked the cost, all the while making changes based on outspoken minority community opinion rather than practical gameplay.

[@Rave.-]

@@sururu6 how often does GW update these, btw? Am I stuck with this garbage for a full year? Or do they ever go "lol my bad. Here's a change before we lose our customers"?

[@jameshutton3960]

Gw release unbalanced rules. Watch as stock of models is snapped up Nerf unit to oblivion Force players towards opposite builds Repeat.

[@CalebHastings]

We never learn, do we! ;)

[@just_sn0wy566]

im dropping the whole army pal, this is a joke