SFV Final Patch at a glance - Chun-Li

[@TSNMLitoFightingGamesPassion]

They Nerf Chun as much as they give her costumes.

[@PianoDensetsu]

Appreciate you, Bafael. These videos are the thing I look forward to the most when patches drop. Much love!

[@madonnasantoddio]

I think It's unfair to compare Chun's cr.hp to Bison's cr.fwd hp. Yes, in a vacuum, Chun's cr.hp is pretty much objectively weaker but holistically speaking she has more ways to cover the long startup than Bison, like fireballs in the corner that put you in a hugely plus situation on block. For example I can totally see cr.mk -> fireball followed up by cr.hp being a thing, just as cr.fwd hk has always been a thing in that same situation.

[@kuahee4334]

Chun's cr MK xx kikoken is not only negative on block, but it's also not a true blockstring. I don't see how that sets up the new cr HP? Personally I think the larger frame gap between the 2 hits is an unnecessary nerf and makes the move harder to use well.

[@Chun-believable]

@Alex (Alexander) K But why do all of that when you have easier and better options?

[@RIP-Daedae]

@Alex (Alexander) K The further you space it the wider the gap between fireball.

[@RIP-Daedae]

@Kua Hee Came say this basically lol.

[@Samflaful]

@@RIP-Daedae yeah that's self evident, but it's never about this stuff in a vacuum. There's very few things in street fighter in general that are like straight up hard to see/ react to, but the mix between cr.mk > fireball, and cr.mk > wait, is enough to make it a situation worth keeping in mind.

[@thorasskicker1751]

Hey Baf, regarding your point at 2:46. VS2 actually does considerably more damage and stun than what you showed. The most optimal combo, from my findings, is cr.hp xx VS2, st.lp xx L. Legs, st.lp xx L. SBK. This combo was not possible until this new patch due to the decreased pushback on Hazanshu. Also, on a crouching character, you can actually do cr.hp xx VS2, cr.lp, st. mp xx M. SBK for slightly more damage, but less stun.

[@elegy8187]

I don’t even play SF5 but when I saw the patch get announced the thing I was looking forward to the most was your videos on each characters updates

[@JasonYJS_xoxo]

Some Chun Li players still pick VS1 in spite of the damage nerfs. Fixes Chun Li's shortcomings like her floaty jumps and has more combo routes than VS2. However, VS2 combos fill up her critical bar more than VS1 can. After VS1 launch and jump follow-up, she can jump again for 2 stomps and lightning legs, maybe not as much. VS2 gives her better critical bar build (St. LP > LK legs > St. LP > LK Spinning bird kick)

[@Marwu21]

I definitly think Chun is one of the chars in sf5 that has been constantly overrated since getting her VT2. I at least don't think so many of the draw-backs she got in the patch were necessary, but the buffs to VT1 is welcome. If they had reverted b-hp's frame data it could've been a really nice button to go with v-skill 2 now.

[@kastle09-gaming86]

Whiff punishing s.hp feels so good now. I had more trouble with that then some chars medium pokes.

[@Angel7black]

Youre supposed to, its supposed to be one of the best pokes in the game and the reason she has a god awful jump and shorter range on her conversion buttons. Shes supposed to have the beat neutral control outside of the hard zoners. She didnt need any nerfs, she was at best mid tier with a significant number of counter picks. Yeah she had some match ups she handily one but those characters were usually one dimensional characters that have a hard time getting in. A lot of nerfs this patch just come off feeling lazy to me. Like getting rid of uriens ex headbutt invincibility but leaving it a crush counterable punish. What even is that

[@TheSlottedPig]

Hazanshu got a big dmg buff. You can link into st.lp legs st.lp sbk, which is higher damage than VS1 combos last season.

[@BHS289]

Weird that they strictly buffed VT1 to make it more appealing since VT2 is so widely-picked outside of niche matchups, but felt VS1 had to be nerfed so VS2 players don’t get FOMO? I don’t really understand the logic, something better would have been adjusting the move’s pushback and hitstun to allow crMK afterwards - or at least make it blow up fireballs better. Only being comboable from crHP really limits it compared to VS1. She’ll probably be fine but it’s a bummer that the ‘final’ patch barring a follow-up feels like she’s been left in a weakened state despite not being that much of a competitive threat. The stHP nerf is fine and was expected, though; you shouldn’t be whiffing that move anyways. The good news is those QOL changes are welcome, like b/fMP in VT1, 6HK low crushing, and bHP CC making it way easier to confirm into HK Legs. I like the idea of using crHp after a spaced Kikoken to steal a turn back as someone else mentioned, too.

[@DEClimax]

honestly, i felt like i understood the logic right away. her VS1 still gives her noticeably more damage from her combos starting from a light normal than her regular routes (already far above average) do. i think you may be underestimating just how significant the gap between her meterless max damage from a non-CH jab and almost everyone else's was; she was doing damage on par with ken using VS2. she still has all the same routes, they just do slightly less, and slightly less is still more than almost every other character gets. i don't think it's true at all that she wasn't much of a competitive threat, i just think her playstyle was clearly outclassed by cammy and karin, who both got more significant nerfs and less significant buffs than she did.

[@BHS289]

@@DEClimax Oddly enough I've kind of come to the same conclusion - VS1 is easier to get into combos so it should do less damage, VS2 is potentially more rewarding but you have fewer ways to use it, etc.. Maybe the original explanation tried to explain this but the translation butchered it? If anything I wish they had just nerfed the stomps, the VS1 followup is pretty underused as-is. I'd still say being outclassed by clear top tiers is still a relevant criticism for nerfs (other than normalizing stHP) but eh. Barring a follow-up patch it is what it is.

[@scorpiomoon2535]

This was the most concise Chun patch review I’ve found so far! Thanks! The Cr.HP change….feels awkward. As other characters seem to have gotten crazy combo options with the new patch, I feel like someone at Capcom must not like Chun Li.

[@ronmexico7256]

Sigh, Chun nerfed again 😭

[@devoncampbell3607]

Is it strange that I want to see top tier chun-li? I don't understand why it is so appealing, but it is

[@khhnator]

because Chun is our girl and we love her

[@skychaos87]

Chun Li has always been high tier in SFV. In the first two season she is top S tier, now she has consistently been A tier.

[@nebiyuesayas5600]

I do think Chun was good, but I personally thing she's only upper mid, not top-tier. She has great pokes and neutral, but she struggles with low damage and a few defensive issues (mainly in anti-airs). Also, while I do like VS2, she loses a lot of damage and potential even with the VS1 nerfs. Unless they made Hazanshu an overhead again or something, it still won't get picked, and overall I think these nerfs were somewhat harsh. Also, for the last change (overhead vs v-skill), I kind of find it funny. In canon, Sen'enshu (proper name of the overhead) is the precuser move to Hazanshu, yet here Sen'enshu is arguably better.

[@alphach1mp]

Not won a tourney in 2-3 years. She is definitely not top tier.

[@nebiyuesayas5600]

@@alphach1mp winning a tournament is not indicative of tier. Mono has won tournaments with Fang, that doesn't mean Fang is suddenly top 3

[@alphach1mp]

@@nebiyuesayas5600 Winning tournaments mean top viability. It also means experts of these characters are utilizing them to the fullest potential. The pattern I keep seeing is that there are always Chun players who make it to the finals but never won. I've made my point and Chun should not have had 1 nerf regarding pokes and in fact should have had a few more buffs for pokes and anti-air.

[@Sakaki98]

Gotta say I’m not liking Capcom’s logic with how they handled VS and HP. Chun Li was an honest character with a bottom tier jump in game and barely average close range damage without Kikosho and/or specific corner fireball setups(and her corner carry wasn’t good without VS1 combos to begin with) so I’m surprised they felt the need to nerf her VS damage when she already couldn’t confirm into it outside of super close range counter hits with moves that pretty much end her already mediocre pressure entirely like Hakkei or two-hit strings that only work in the corner and can still whiff on crouchers. And yes, Cr. HP could invalidate certain characters so it needs the whiff nerf, Chun was always volatile in that characters with good enough range or projectile game to counter it like Menat, Guile, or Dhalsim could bully her the same way she bullied the ones who didn’t. In the worst case scenario, she was forced to play as what is effectively a worse version of every other ACTUAL rushdown character to get anywhere. The solution was to buff other parts of her kit so that she didn’t live or die by that normal in neutral(such was the purpose of Hazanshu in previous games which they made a shitty v skill in this one), especially because her floaty jump was just nowhere near good enough to get her out of those situations. This is why VT2 was so overused-because VT1 just strengthened what was more than strong enough without fixing the problems in her bad matchups. Meanwhile, combining VT2 with cr. MP gave her the closest thing to a proper counter zoning tool she’s ever had in this game and patched up the issue of being utterly unable to convert any of her best pokes-other than cr. MK-into damage/oki without counterhit and meter. Literally all they had to do was nerf HP a bit, give Chun-Li HK lightning legs oki again, and make BASE Hazanshu better so that Chun Li has a good tool to reliably counter zone and get more consistent long range V-meter gain with. At which point the V-Skills are in the perfect spot: both do their different jobs well and work better or worse depending on the matchup, coming together to round out the character they belong to overall. Nerfing VS1 and locking much needed VS2 buffs to VT1 comes across as a cheap way to even up VS/VT usage stats without actually addressing the core performance volatility issues that created that prolonged dynamic in the first place and after experiencing Respawn similarly balance Legends solely around pick rate for several seasons-rip Wraith mains-I can’t say I agree with that reductive approach in any game.

[@dimex3362]

Ive mained chun for a long time in previous games but dropped her in s2. All the things you talk about here were major issues that werent addressed, plus even more: People could walk out of her tick throw easily, she couldnt handle fireballs very well, and people could just run away from her and never try to directly challenge her pokes... i remember s1 and s2 watching nuki the chun god... double and triple dashing at people all day because thats how bad chun was at closing the gap... nuki dropped the game after s2 and not much has changed about her approach. I think the reason why capcom did what it did to hasan shu is because if it were a much better firebal deterrent... then she basically has a meterless fiteball deterrent that can do massive damage... i dont thinknthey want that at all. The way to fix this would have been to make it better against fireballs then buff its damage a bit... but give it no followups on hit and like -8 on block. Now it can deal with fireballs but you cant just throw it out. Also maybe reduce the range it works at because... its still a meterless anti fb weapon. All in all chun seems like a funner character, has much better shimmies and a better throw game. But the things that made her not so great havent been that greatly addressed. So imo shes still just mid tier, people can still just run away all day.

[@Zechswind]

I'm not going to lie I'm disappointed with this path capcom took with Chun li. Thank you for your honset review of Chun.

[@shanerpressley]

There's likely major depth to the crouch heavy punch change. Yes it can encourage mashing which opene up crush counters, but it's also a staggering tool that's safe on block. Chun Li has plenty of fast, long ranged buttons so this gives her a new tool to take advantage of the respect you see her get during a block string

[@theSHELFables]

St hp nerf is fine. The buffs to F+Hk and VT1 are nice. Them nerfing VS1 and stomps to make VS2 more appealing is really dumb imo. They looked at characters like Akira and Bison and buffed their underused tools but Chun just gets the more used one nerfed when it wasnt even overly strong to begin with. I am a little bummed because I really wanted to see her represented at high level but I just dont think its going to happen outside of character specialists.

[@prof.x3821]

After season 1 and 2 Chun-Li has been getting fucked over in different ways.

[@DragynFyre12]

I really like Chun in this game too. She did have the issue of just invalidating some characters with s.HP alone so I'm glad they toned that down, but I was hoping for something to round her out in return. She definitely still has the tools tho

[@Saxandfifths]

What is your rank? 😐

[@shaunmcisaac782]

s. HP wasn't so bad offline but with any kind of lag it was thrown controller worthy. Shifting from walking back to walking forward and then hitting HP would get rolled back this awkward teleport forward with very little startup and an unpunishable recovery.

[@R0omwithoutawindow]

I enjoy these videos more than actually playing fighting games lol

[@GoldGuard]

I find it very weird that Capcom thought it was necessary to nerf Chun-Li but gave Zeku ,who is generally placed higher than Chun-Li on most tier lists, only buffs with no nerfs.

[@bguy6778]

They don't usually take tier lists into consideration when it comes to balance, only those who complain the most That's not a completely bad thing mind since tier lists are so different from each so I don't blame them for not following them

[@GoldGuard]

@@bguy6778 Fair point

[@christianyu1675]

The down highpunch indirectly buffed v skill 2 since it gives chun a reason to use it for big damage or a mix.

[@WantSomeWhiskey818]

I wont stop playing Chun, especially since I play VT2 and this patch is mostly addressing VT1 but some of her changes seem kinda arbitrary. Shes not worse, shes not better. These changes just seem to be there for the hell of it. Its weird.

[@kyogredefender4039]

Can you give any tips for someone starting to play chun im kinda new

[@alphach1mp]

I can't believe I am saying this but this version of Chun has dropped a whole tier for me. Besides her poke nerfs and cr HP, you have to consider how many other characters have had minor buffs in their long and short pokes, better hitbox/hurtboxe, etc.., which are just as good or better to her moves..

[@Apexeon]

This is outstanding.

[@libertarianvoter]

I'm sure cr.hp will be very useful as part of auto-spaced blockstrings to maintain pressure and steal turns, which was not chun's strongest attribute pre-patch.

[@ronmexico7256]

Good players will stuff it on reaction

[@shanerpressley]

You can't stuff it out if she's using it after something like Kikoken

[@yinako]

been wondering what's reason for the c.hp change....here's my theory. it actually makes vskill2 viable now. c.hp is a combo starter for vs2. if vs2 lands you can land a combo. e.g. c.hp, vs2, c.lp, m.lightning legs, c.lk m.lightning legs. if the vs2 is blocked you are +2 you can throw opponent. if the c.hp 1st hit is missed, 2nd hit is +1 you can throw opponent as well. so all in all vs2 is as good as vs1 now. you can pressure with c.hp and vs2 pretty much...

[@TheCiggoc]

Vs2 still -4 ob. Only in VT1 it’s -2

[@sushisparkle]

So aAbout the Cr.HP. Both hits are special cancelable. This allow you to frame trap from the first hit with H.legs and FB but if you don't you are plus. This is very similar to how frame trap vs pressure reset work in arcsys games.

[@loveless9500]

only the first one is special cancelable the second one can’t even be v trigger canceled

[@IYPITWL]

ya so many incoming charas. Its Christmas in spring!

[@benjihuynh2970]

Baf! Your sleep schedule is as bad as mine

[@loveless9500]

I feel like her cr.hp change was meant to be used with hazanshu like they can take the +1 or get hit by hazanshu but even then standing attacks will still beat it out I’m sure so it’s not good still

[@SlugSage]

Give me back my poke!

[@JasonYJS_xoxo]

No limelight for VS1?

[@scorpiomoon2535]

Also, the hurt box on Hazanshu is HORRENDOUS. Can they at least change it to where she actually IS? She’s spinning in midair and standing MP hits her….

[@philip1718]

They are really disrespecting chun li with these nerfs. Might as well just delete her in the game.

[@GoldGuard]

Don't give them any ideas like this for SF6 lol

[@scorpiomoon2535]

I’m glad I’m not the only one who feels she’s being disrespected! This patch is a real mixed bag.

[@thaisennj9781]

Necalli.. Necalli.. Necalli.. *Snarl*

[@Bafael]

At least you found a creative way to ask

[@JasonYJS_xoxo]

I still can't combo into VS2 from fwd MP?

[@Ghaust8546]

0:25 What? Can someone correct me on this but i thought she was a 4 frame character

[@GoldieLock]

cr.lk always been 3f

[@Ghaust8546]

@@GoldieLock oooh good to know, thanks

[@evidencedotzip]

Man I love playing Chun, but I cannot believe that not only did Hozanshu get hardly anything for buffs but they also nerfed VS1! The fuck?! God I can’t wait until 6 is out and we can leave this trash behind forever.

[@akocleol3856]

agree. its like saying vs1 users go f yourselves

[@robertgeorge4602]

Great video Baf. There is a lot to go and appreciate you for doing all of this. Went I first saw the trailer, I thought Capcom would go absolute nuts like SF4 Omega. Turns out it didnt happen to that degree. Interesting that you think this Chun is your favorite to play in the entire franchise. What do you like about her more in SFV than 3rd strike, Alpha chun, or Sf4 Chun?

[@Bafael]

SF4 chun feels like she has no cohesion between her various attacks and a lot of them feel useless or near useless. 3s chun I just don't like at all since she counterpicks my main and dumbs down the game in general. Alpha chun is probably my next favorite version of her, feels like she's just a bunch of solid and varied buttons without feeling spammy, which is what I think she should be.

[@robertgeorge4602]

@@Bafael Thank you so much for replying Bafael!

[@Kenzamaka]

Is it possible that cr.HP (1 hit) can be cancelled into a special move to create a frame trap to punish people pressing buttons between the two hits? That would make more sense, even if said special move is negative or even unsafe on block. Still a wild choice for a change.

[@skychaos87]

Yes, its possible to cancel from the first hit. And yes, it creates a frame trap opportunity.

[@Kenzamaka]

@@skychaos87 Nice. Knew the cancel was possible but we'll have to see if anyone even utilizes it as a frame trap. All of her special moves barring EX Legs are unsafe on block point-blank...

[@skychaos87]

​@@Kenzamaka kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z4Hcd2trbamcsNE&ab_channel=MCMuraFGC There are some demo here. This change allow for Chun to continue pressure after c.hp on block which is plus and within throw range. In exchange for the pressure, opponents can punish the gap between the 2 hits. However, Chun Li can also cancel the first hit into special moves to punish mashers. IMO this is a good change, is not like c.hp was useful previously other than being used for combo. This change allow Chun to apply different pressure with some mind games involved.

[@mrchinee25]

Guys I have a question: how to punish Chun LI ex legs with zangief? Besides using super

[@Bafael]

Zangief is one of like 3 characters in the game who can punish it at all and you already know the punish lol. It's safe. You're just supposed to get mixups on her after blocking it.

[@mrchinee25]

@@Bafael so gief is literally fakked against ex legs...erghh that sucks

[@Bafael]

@@mrchinee25 if he's fucked against ex legs then every character in the game is lmao. Zangief has some of the best counterplay against it of anyone

[@mrchinee25]

@@Bafael ok so any ideas of what I should or can do against it? Thanks for the info btw

[@Bafael]

@@mrchinee25 Mix her up. Regular throw, or SPD, or cr. LK to cr. LP, all the mixups you normally get when you've got frame advantage. It's not like she can spam EX legs anyway, it costs a bar.

[@Darth_Bateman]

I mained chun and cammy back in SF4. SF5 has been sitting in my library for awhile unplayed. Time to dust it off.

[@BoneyGaf]

Can't you cancel the first hit of cr.hp into legs, making it counter hit people trying to push buttons between each hit? It's a 50/50

[@ensanesane]

You can but since legs is punishable that's a poor mixup. It'd be like Karin's VT1 "mixup". Also not sure that wouldn't just be a true blockstring, not in game to test.

[@BoneyGaf]

@@ensanesane Ah right, I guess fireball would be safe then?

[@akocleol3856]

nerf one skill so the other skill becomes a choice. thats like saying ill make a burger taste like a salad so u would pick the salad. wtf

[@nesmario123]

did any of the low tiers get any buffs?

[@60fpspeasant84]

Oh boy, just you wait for his Juri, Alex videos, lol.

[@dyldragon1]

@@60fpspeasant84 and Gill holy hell

[@robertgeorge4602]

Gill, Alex, and Kage got some fantastic stuff to work with. Dan also got buffed though not nearly as much as Gill.

[@kevingriffith6011]

@@60fpspeasant84 Don't forget Oro. He's almost a completely different character now.

[@GoldGuard]

@@kevingriffith6011 Oro isn't low tier though. He's mid tier

[@johnanr]

Are you doing a video for every character?

[@yabbadabbindude]

I hope so

[@Bafael]

Yes.

[@Hillthugsta]

@@Bafael Can't wait for Vega...😐

[@Chun-believable]

The nerfs weren’t necessary, and cr.HP isn’t anything special. They just had to give her the oki from HK legs again. She’s never been a character known for her damage, so they go and take more damage from her. Okay.

[@ameerkhan-mz2pp]

NO OKI AFTER HK LEGS BECAUSE PLAYERS WOULD DO THAT RATHER THAN BIRD KICK I ACTUALLY AGREE WITH THIS THATS Y I LEARNT THE MOVE BUT THE SHOULD OF BUFF HER DAMAGE

[@Temperance_Noblige]

I hate when companies diliberately sabotage moves to force players to use another one. They do this nonsense when new moves are added to decrease the desire to use existing ones. And constantly touching her fundementals and lowering her damage even more makes no sense to me. Hazanshu was the problem and need fixing not her pokes being made worse.

[@akocleol3856]

totally agree

[@fleshkilla999]

and they nerfed it in the patch before already ...chun is like one of the only honest chars in the game. There's no cheap stuff for easy wins. Now it might be damn near impossible to get consistent wins. Nerfed her only good poke and lowered her combo damage when she already has the worst jump in the game lol damn.

[@robertgeorge4602]

I get where your coming from but sometimes I think its a good thing. Its not good if a character has 1 button that does everything and invalidates other parts of their kit. Nerfing a super strong move and buffing lesser used parts of a characters kit tends to be a good thing. Now for this case specifically, I agree.

[@akocleol3856]

@@robertgeorge4602 her st HP doesnt do everything. lol.

[@simons9264]

Holy fuck imagine coping this hard

[@RedMage409]

More stupid and unnecessary nerfs.

[@superbigtime]

as someone who is a firm believer that chun is an annoying piece of shit in this game with its subpar online, seeing her get nerfed in any capacity brings some life to my soul