Should The Crusader's Crossbow Be Banned?

The Crusader's Crossbow is in competition as the most powerful unlockable weapon in the game, and as it found a foothold in the competitive metagame, some felt as though it were unhealthy for the game. Let's take a look at the crossbow and ask the question of how healthy it is for TF2.

[@DucktorHeyDucktor]

It really is tough, the crossbow IS overpowered and banning it would make sense from a balance perspective, but it also makes playing medic so much more fun and dynamic, and makes the gameplay faster which most people prefer. I feel similar about the gunboats, to a lesser extent. It is kind of a point that you aren't creating a balanced game with bans, you are creating what you think is a fun game, which is a fine thing to do.

[@DataDrain02]

Yeah, that's why I'm not 100% sold on TF2C. They removed the Crossbow but kept other meta weapons from base TF2. Like Gunboats.... And yeah, it makes Medic less fun to play. They DO at least have the Shock Therapy. A melee, which does give an ally that you hit a full heal after a meter is filled. (Which is filled when you spawn in.) But. It has one major downside. (Or upside in some cases....) A 15% reduction in Medigun healing. (The reason I say it's an upside sometimes is because you get more Ubers.)

[@greenoftreeblackofblue6625]

Nah. They basic just gave the medic a design weapon he should have it's fine.

[@Quartermistress]

Without the crossbow we'd see some proper syringe gun vs syringe gun action when everybody but the med dies on mid as a plus side.

[@puzzlepuddles6712]

i have a timer for these

[@itsasecrettoevery1]

5:43 you just refused to heal your sniper 😭😭

[@yourdemiseishere]

6's classes only bro, gotta get the meta only.

[@kimgkomg]

The real reason is that he knew the sniper wasn't in any danger while they were walking to the front lines, so it made sense to buff his other teammates instead

[@paollus8575]

Based

[@bhopr3800]

Literally laughed so fucking loud at the opening line of the video

[@itchylol742]

a few weeks ago i learned if you hit 100% of your crossbow shots its faster to heal by switching between the medigun and crossbow instead of only using the medigun (even if you're using the quickfix, and are crossbowing teammates at melee range). i have been playing since 2011. you learn something new every day

[@mada2774]

The thing is that the medigun heals faster with critheals, and the crossbow effectively stops building 2.5% every time you use it. It's a nuanced question.

[@quantumgoosey1535]

Yeah like does that stat include critheals cuz that makes a big difference

[@sunderkeenin]

The xbow can be banned if you want to kill competitive TF2. The supermajority of all medics would probably quit on the spot with the xbow being even more divisive than getting rid of medic scout speed because xbow is the most interesting part of playing medic and it's not even close. The burst healing is insane and completely fucks the ammo economy during fights if the medic hits the ultiduo arrow and makes it so that you need a minimum of 3 players or two scouts in close range focus firing to actually kill a heavy and just generally reduces the persistence of damage. TF2 would be a less fun game for medics and significantly more balanced game without the xbow though.

[@Ratscallion_exe]

Mabye just increase the syringe gun projectile speed? DPS is already kinda high, spread keeps it in check from being a 100% accurate lazerbeam, and it already requires prediction to know where it lands It requires practice, as the weapon has the lowest to crosshair center projectile ark in the whole game Even "pipes" reach their apex of the arch above crosshair, not below it

[@vonskeedle5309]

It is really a shame that this game isn't actively developed anymore; the prospect of sidegrades to the crossbow (rather than the needlegun) is really interesting if you ask me.

[@mrstudent9125]

It's funny that 6s wanted to ban Ali Baba's booties because they were "over centralising", but not this.

[@dashyz3293]

I think bans should only be kept to fully degenerative weapons. For example, the quick-fix can be easily abused into a stalematey situation that would make the game significantly less interesting while bringing almost no pluses to the engagement of the game. On the other side, when Jay was bringing about the era of The Spoon, we saw a lot of clips of him getting really insane picks that sometimes seem even straight up unfair. This and a few other minor factors allowed The Spoon to develop and even flourish in competitive 6s across all divisions, to the point that even pocket soldiers are running it because of the amount of value it can provide both in a salvage and in a playmaker situation. However, returning to the original argument, it in fact does bring about dynamics to the metagame, and that's why it should not be banned.

[@oiytd5wugho]

Do we have proof that the current quick-fix is broken in this way or is this just theorizing? It's not the gun it was in 2013. Was it actually a problem when it got unbanned briefly? I wasn't following anything tf2 at the time

[@itsasecrettoevery1]

​@@oiytd5wughokzbin.info/www/bejne/hZLPiHeejsuXm8ksi=U7aJdb7dXhdSo6oI

[@greenoftreeblackofblue6625]

​@@oiytd5wughoquick fix is considered one of the most underpowered medi guns actually. If it's banned am surprised.

[@oiytd5wugho]

@@greenoftreeblackofblue6625 It is. I think people are traumatized by the 20 minute last holds it enabled 10 years ago so even though it's a different weapon, they're hesitant

[@Capiosus]

the fact that demos are better than replays just shows how much valve cares about the replay system

[@ubermorpth2208]

Yo another Medic thing (Your fashion is nice btw): The main part of Crossbow is for def sure making Medic actually fun to play, I can't say for certain but with regards to thing's like newbies mix (or casual for a more general example) There's a good case to make that most people on average just don't like playing a class who has almost 0 combat effectiveness and their only goal is basically keeping people alive with heals and such. Something like Battlefield for example where that series of games has a "Medic" like class who not only can heal people but even revive em MvM style after they died, still is a combat class just not as much of an effective one but still can contribute to a firefight or a 1v1. (BF1 for example as well you have more options to weapons like semi auto/full auto loading rifles for example on the Medic class rather then just two in TF2.) It is funny how I'd argue that aspect of how the Medic in TF2 is so dependent on his team with the strong heals is what makes him truly unique and well done (both from a design and gameplay perspective) compared to other shooters that actually had a healing like class in the past and even to this day. The closest you get would maybe be Overwatch 1/2 styled heros who are "healers" but that's a completely different game entirely.

[@TheDarkSlayer415]

The Crossbow is in a weird spot where it's a perfectly balanced and fun weapon to use, both in Casual and in more serious environments like Comp and PUGs, but it also makes every other Medic primary completely useless and irrelevant. Medic is honestly the only class in the game with this issue where there's an objectively superior option to every other choice that exists. IIRC, the developer commentary for Medic explictly stated that the Syring Gun was purposely designed to be a terrible combat weapon in order to encourage players to heal their teammates, but the Crossbow serves the function of both a combat weapon and utility tool to make Medic's job more fun and impactful for their team. One thing I don't see many community rebalance mods do is buff the Medic's other Syringe Guns to provide some form of utility like the Crossbow, and I think it would be beneficial for those options to exist. For example, here's what I would do; Stock Syringe Gun: Shooting a teammate provides them with passive health regeneration of 4 HP/sec (like the Conch and Cozy Camper), up to 10 seconds max (or 10 syringes). Blutsauger: Shooting a teammate provides them with up to 10 seconds (10 syringes) of health on hit that provide teammates with 25% of damage returned as health (like the Conch's buff effect or Mad Milk). Overdose: Shooting a teammate provides them with a small speed boost of 1 second per syringe (max 3 syringes). The speed boost provided will vary by class, but I think 50% of what the Disciplinary Action's boost would be fair. Speaking of the Crossbow, my favorite memory of it has to be when I got an airshot kill on an enemy Soldier who was playing a roamer-like playstyle during a KoTH match back when I used to play Highlander lol.

[@Psychopathman12]

The buff to crossbow enabling it to passively reload is a wild idea when it was already superior to its competition. That should have been a class-wide change to -- at the very least -- throw the syringe gun players even the smallest of bones. As already recognized, it gives Medic more stuff to do that help him do his job and that's fun for the Medic to be doing. The dichotomy between the syringe options and the crossbow is that syringe guns only really provide self defense as an appealing pull, but in the world of burst damage vs streamed damage (especially with projectiles), the crossbow just feels better to aim for that purpose (on top of the aforementioned passive reload). If Valve ever were to take another look at attempting to equalize the options, we'd obviously prefer for the syringes to be brought up to the level of the crossbow rather than dragging it downward. But the scary thing to consider is just how they'd go about it. The Blutsauger v Syringe Gun is an example of a weapon that originally was best in slot until they decided to buff Medic at a baseline level, and then remove that buff from the Bluts and suddenly it's worst in slot since you couldn't ever find enough frequent use of it to offset the new penalty. And the release version of the Overdose didn't provide anything to proactively DO as a Medic, since it was purely a reactive tool for trying to preserve uber like the current day Vita-Saw. Between the syringes, the only one that I can muster up a change that both helps Medic do his job and makes it a potentially worthy option would be to introduce the beta-overdose's mad milk application to it, in lieu of its flat +3 on hit -- it'd technically be stronger than +3 and it'd give the Medic's teammates health regen, rather than being purely selfish in its use cases. The base syringe gun and overdose are tricky because they don't actively DO things on hit, and taking the same road of buffing Medic at a baseline and removing that buff like they did with the Blutsauger creates an awful decision, especially since the only things that you can touch that would be worth considering are HP regen, max HP, uber duration, uber build rates, uber drain rate when swapping targets, max speed, or mirroring speed of healing targets (in the sense of moving it to a weapon rather than a class-wide feature), and doing anything that messes with uber is going to be like the prisoner's dilemma that the old Vita-Saw presented: either neither medic runs it, or both medics run it to prevent the other from getting advantage. Crossbow is the king of the slot and you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who would want to see it gone, at both the competitive and casual levels of play. But looking through the garbage pile of Medic's other options is always an interesting thought exercise.

[@WillieDangerously]

I could argue the Crossbow enables Medic to hit heals his base class design was never intended to and can allow the Med to heal teamates while being comfortably in a safe position behind cover or away from the fight. This level of burst healing allows med to not just outheal but diversify his healing patients significantly more than medics without. You can buff the Blutsauger or the Overdose all you'd like but the sheer utility of the Crossbow will always be prioritized over the speed boost (when deployed) or bonus self heal. In fact it trivializes the other primaries so much that this point alone I would stake a debate on. Devil's advocate, the logical consistency of why you argue for the Crossbow could also be used to endorse the Disciplinary Action. -it speeds the game up and increases the pace of it -provides plenty of opportunity for a player to retreat to recover at a health pack, medic, or just speed up a regrouping to form a push -it allows additional layer of mechanical consideration and depth to soldier gameplay, and could make pocket soldier all the more fun to use. With good whip timing you can easily save a teamate. And this is all with respect to the fact the Escape Plan is negligibly just as viable. I just feel like the decision is arbitrary, which is ok, and I certainly prefer Medic gameplay with the crossbow because I do agree it is more fun, but that's also an arbitrary claim.

[@DataDrain02]

Well, to the people who want the Crossbow removed. Play Team Fortress 2 Classic. There is NO Crossbow, nor any alternatives to the Syringe Gun. It still has the Ubersaw, but, with a 10 health penalty. The closest thing to the Crossbow is a melee that has a meter like Jarate. When it's full and you hit a teammate. They get fully healed. (Or if they already have full health, a full overheal instead.) The downside? Slower swing speed? Reduced damage? No, it actually does 100 damage when fully charged. (And uses that charge. And does 1 when not charged.) The two major downsides is. It makes your Medigun have 15% less heal speed. And it heals disguised Spies.... The latter hurts more. Because the 15% slower heal speed can help build Ubers faster. Especially with the Kritz. But... yeah... the lack of Crossbow does, as you said. Make Medic less fun overall. I find myself missing the crossbow when I'm playing TF2C. (And when I play vanilla TF2. =V)

[@TayoyoGames]

I love you rumpus

[@aidenb876]

that was a slow midfight

[@brennonplays]

Crossbow shouldn’t be banned simply because it allows the least versatile class in the game some fun skill expression :) Nothing like hitting a clutch bolt across map! One of the most satisfying weapons in the game for me!

[@sdfggdfg5fgdfg]

I agree, I wish syringeguns were updated or modded to allow similar skill expression and healing utility to rival the crossbow

[@koboldcatgirl]

God, this HUD seems so much cleaner. I was trying to figure out why your Medic screen looked so much "cleaner" than mine. I've been using stock since Day One. I need to figure out that HUD thing.

[@koboldcatgirl]

I just took the plunge and downloaded RaysHUD, and also did the Tryhard Engineer Keybinds thing. Way easier than I expected!

[@uhhno841]

i mean as a healing focused medic, (crusaders, quick fix, the emote heal saw i blank on the name of) there is alot that can be done to make medic a nightmare to deal with because his team wont die

[@tangerinepaint3643]

That saw is called the Amputator

[@kurrtathegreenknight8181]

Rumpus, do you think any scout secondary should be unbanned? Scout has many banned secondaries

[@masikfromdombasic]

Hilarious how you proceed to yap for 20 mins after answering the clickbaity question title in the first 7 seconds of the video, peak Wild Rumpus it is :D

[@RealBenitoMussolini1883]

I think that at this point the crossbow has become a fundamental part of tf2 as a whole you can't remove it from the game in any way without messing something up

[@asushi9663]

ill have to think about this one 🤔

[@master-pz5ed]

i mean it’s not even close ITS THE MOST BUSTED ITEM IN THE GAME my take? try a season and banned it so we can see just how much this GLUES TOGETHER THIS MODE

[@dashyz3293]

it's not busted. its alternatives are only significantly worse. It's like saying the escape plan is OP, especially when the market gardener was significantly less popular. It clearly is not, it's just that its alternatives don't provide anything useful in their slot, while the escape plan does.

[@master-pz5ed]

@@dashyz3293 bro THIS THING IS OBVIOUSLY BROKEN EVEN IF YOU BUFF OTHERS IT WONT DO SHIT this gives FUKING BURST HEAL ACROSS THE MAP FOR FREE,IS SUPER EASY TO AIM AND HAS UNLIMITED AMMO(iv never seen myself burn all the ammo and i have over 150 hours on med)

[@bobswitz3146]

big wild rumpus video

[@jakubkarel2336]

Nice arrows my guy!

[@rockowlgamer631]

Is there anyway to make Heavy more viable without neutering his weapons to "fit the meta" like how they did with the Eviction Notice.

[@sdfggdfg5fgdfg]

Buff syringeguns by giving them healing utility instead of nerfing the crossbow

[@CT-tt3bd]

Question: why do you keep shouting medic when you're the only medic? Is this a strategy?

[@itsasecrettoevery1]

to alert your team where you are

[@CT-tt3bd]

@@itsasecrettoevery1 I thought so, but isn't that alerting the enemy too?

[@itsasecrettoevery1]

@@CT-tt3bd well if your entire team is wiped and youre all alone waiting for them to respawn, of course you dont wanna squawk medic. but if youre looking for a teammate whos separated from you, giving an audio cue of where you are is useful.

[@Mixxium]

I am of the op that the crossbow should get nerfed just a weence on firing speed. And/or the other syringe guns get that same auto reload. It's hard to even joke that the crossbow isn't the best in every way over its contemporary.

[@Mixxium]

Okay, lowering the reload speed of the crossbow and universalizing the auto reload would actually create a really interesting dichotomy where you could choose better heals, better Dm, or better survivability.

[@deejaydaniel4154]

mogus

[@Mai.Calico]

13:30 99% UBER DROP AHHHH

[@gappleofdiscord9752]

0:33 nice arrow, holy

[@fumoaddict3526]

i guarantee you anyone who legit wants the crossbow banned has never played medic in their entire lives

[@kreany8981]

based

[@puzzlepuddles6712]

i never understood why the cbow had inverted falloff. i think I'd change that since it's redundant

[@jamethlawthon5602]

No!!

[@artifactU]

but its cool

[@queenbeeremedy6993]

imagine arrow tanking a heavy and soldier for 150....

[@Frw0ge]

what is this cope video thats trying to make tf2 relevant again??

[@altEFG]

Should it be banned in competitive? Those nerds can do whatever they want, they essentially want to bring TF2 as close to Quake 2/3 as possible. I think their ideal game would be a modded Quake 2 with 4 classes: Soldier, Demo, Scout and Medic. With no unlocks, and CC as the Medic's primary. As for casual, AKA REAL TF2, so many fun stuff has been nerfed to death already, I dread if Valve ever listens to competitive players again. If anything, it's not the Crossbow that should be nerfed, it's the Syringe guns that should be buffed. I dunno, give them all a heal on hit stat, so you can heal teammates 1 HP per syringe, leave everything as is. The Crossbow would be still the best in terms of damage/healing, but Syringe guns would have more fun stats.

[@tangerinepaint3643]

Honestly it just sounds more like Valve is shit at balancing their game rather than comp players whining about a weapon. I mean have you _seen_ the day 1 R8 Revolver in CS:GO? Or the entire existence of the Jarate and Razorback? Or the Wrangler?

[@altEFG]

@@tangerinepaint3643 I don't play CS, and don't you diss my beloved jar of piss. It's perfect.

[@Mardenii1]

Comp is super lame, doesnt fit TF2 at all.

[@oiytd5wugho]

1. press ⋮ next to the video in your recommendations 2. locate the "⊝ Don't recommend channel" option 3. press it 4. you're free

[@skelorbonor]

I wanted to see you cast the grand final because I saw you on the game before but it's okay😔😔