Is Adrien Problematic?⎮A Miraculous Ladybug Season 4 Discussion

[@isabellefuoss9737]

Generally when our two protagonists are not thinking about their love interest or hero relationship standpoint there pretty enjoyable to watch because it doesn’t feel creepy or hypocritical

[@katrinaleahu9369]

So true bestie ✋😭

[@itspienoon7883]

Exactly. The romance in this show is so bad let's just back to the hero stuff

[@toastysweaters5692]

I think Chat Noir’s problem boils down to this; codependency. Codependency is when one person has too much reliance on the other, which I think describes Chat Noir’s feelings towards Ladybug completely. He’s emotionally attached to her, to the point of obsession, and in doing so, they are stuck in an never ending loop where non of them are happy. This would’ve been an interesting plot line, where Chat Noir is forced to confront his codependency, maybe even realise it partially originated from the neglect of his father, and learn to better himself. But like you said, Chat’s flirtatious nature is treated too lightly by the narrative, just like Marinette’s stalkerish attitude. It’s kinda sad how far downhill these two characters went, because they started out as pretty decent characters. I don’t really have hope that Chat’ll get better, as much as I love him, I lost my faith in the writers when they still continued to make Mari unbearable after four seasons of nothing.

[@eshajoshi3597]

I think Kuro Neko addressed his issue of codependency, it wasn't just about Ladybug realising how Chat's been feeling left out but also Adrien realising Ladybug isn't obliged to give special attention to him when there's a whole team she is managing. He said so himself as Cat Walker. And even Kagami called him out on not being independent enough in Risk. So I'm hoping this was the writer's plan all along and they are gonna grow his character from here on. I also wanna hope for Marinette's development with that issue but that will probably take longer than Adrien lol

[@gabrielleduplessis7388]

God bless fan fiction, right?

[@kindabatooni9314]

Oh no, don’t compare CN to Marinette’s behavior. The video pretends CN is not called out or looked down upon because of his behavior. The video pretends he wasn’t undeservingly thrown in trash. The video pretends Ladybug doesn’t flirt back and act touchy feely with him all the time and calls him “hers” when she knows quite well he has feelings for her ( the video laughingly calls it “victim blaming”). Marinette literally broke into Adrien’s house and played in his freaking bed behind his back and no one looks down on her or calls her annoying or throws her in trash. In fact she got away with bullying and sabotaging other girls as well. She’s always praised and rewarded while Cat Noir is humiliated and looked down upon. The video is completely biased as.🤷🏻‍♀️

[@kindabatooni9314]

@StrawberryStar It is biased because its trying to pretend both are the same when they aren’t. It also tries to pretend CN isn’t called out when he was thrown in trash. This video is filled with wrong information and twisting facts.

[@mk3015]

@StrawberryStar Stop it her friends try to literally help her with her creepy crush chat doesn’t get called out enough because marinette doesn’t call him out she sometimes flirts back and when she does he should stop. Marinette doesn’t get called out at all and when she does she learns nothing as well plus she’s treated better as a character overall obviously while chat is useless and gets demeaned. People literally help her do bad things it’s ridiculous. Chat is bad and I hate it but at least he has reasons for his emotional failings and sometimes marinette banters back which is not what you do when you want someone to stop, even with all that what marinette does is far worse and I love marinette. It really boils down to the writing being horrible.

[@ArcticFFox]

I guess what disappoints me about Catnoir is that they keep making him flirt with Ladybug and make him get rejected over and over. Instead of having an arc where he accepts the truth, isn't upset because he got rejected but instead because his feelings are one sided and he has to move on. And then have a conflict about him growing distant from ladybug because he doesn't know how else to get over the feelings.

[@kindabatooni9314]

He never got upset because he was rejected other than one single time and it didn’t even last more than two seconds.

[@kindabatooni9314]

It’s Marinette who has always got upset over Adrien praising as a friend out of all things… as if she expects him to say something else when they are friends.🤷🏻‍♀️

[@90lancaster]

Marinette is more than likely happy to ignore Cat Noir when she's the one doing the ignoring, but if he showed disinterest or dismissiveness to her in anyway to her face she'd be flipping tables over it. So If Cat Noir/Adrien did love Square flip to Marinette and she doesn't notice she'd get really tetchy about that and maybe even love square flip over it herself - as she'd want what she can't have (likely some sub-conscious self-destructive streak she has that also made her sabotage her relationship with Luka and fail to confess to Adrien)

[@90lancaster]

@@kindabatooni9314 I'm still salty as hell about her rejecting his roses... the red one fine - but Pink, white ? He ended up having to Friendzone himself with a yellow one in the end.

[@poijnve3912]

but lb has correspended his flitting in multiple ocations, she even flitterback first sometimes... hell,she was even jelly when chat didn't flirt with her because of kagami!

[@mk3015]

The romance is horribly written, we have to root for a stalker and a aggressive flirt. I think we need to just blank out the romance it’s the only way to stay sane. My biggest thing right now is chat is useless seeing him on screen is not it, it’s just sad and there are too many heroes lol they could just jump every enemy. I need hawkmoth to get a massive win need more steaks to spice things up cause the romance is not cutting it.

[@dbzcupcake]

Writers: they are so terrible they can only be with each other

[@rawdasalmataman7908]

Well . Chatnoir is not an aggressive flirt if you don't think loserbug is the worst partner ever not for returning his love back but for not being fair with him. She is a hypocrite. The romance is bad just simple for the stalker mari and the toxic loserbug in reflector in season 3 she treated him like shit that is just a simple example.

[@gabrielleduplessis7388]

My head cannon is them going their separate ways, figuring out who they are, and coming back together and dating slowly. Also, the way they wrote Ladynoir this season, I need to see an episode of when he finds out Ladybug’s identity. I always picture him excited at first and than suddenly breaking down on the ground confessing to someone of how Marinette, his so called “best friend” neglected and verbally abused (not using it lightly) him and just destroyed any confidence and self-esteem that he had. He had to change his entire identity for her to stay Cat Noir and that wasn’t enough for her. He felt he needed to do this to stay a partner, but the show made it seem like it was because he was in love with her. Jeez.

[@rawdasalmataman7908]

@@gabrielleduplessis7388 Well. Adrien doesn't understand anything about realionships which makes sense and excuse his actions but the writers doesn't make it clear in the audience in kuruneko it was kind of obvious because of when Adrien questioned himself who is his true self or maybe the audience are just tok blind in this episode.

[@gabrielleduplessis7388]

@@rawdasalmataman7908 she is a hypocrite. I get that he needs to dial down his flirting at times, but her behavior is always 10 times worse. This is the person who changes the rules on him and breaks them time and time again and yells at him if he does one thing wrong. I wish the NYC special was cannon. A) she yells at him for not telling him that he left Paris and is in New York. Ok understandable, but this is the same person who not only not told him she left but gave someone else her miraculous. She did not say anything about it or acknowledge how wrong it was. I am going to let the guardian rule slide. She has to know the identities and he gets that so… B) she keeps saying he is irreplaceable and yet keeps replacing him. C) every time he moves on and stops flirting or making puns, she flirts with him and kisses him on the cheek and gives him cute names (which she was against the get go). She keeps getting framed as perfect and can do no wrong while the writers bash on him for everything.

[@holeworm]

It would be great if you could do a updated version of your older video about "ranking of miraculouses", since we got many new miraculouses from the season 4

[@gamergod8538]

Ye i was going to say that

[@ellyyyy]

Yes!!!

[@Gollzz11001]

True

[@Fluffycakez5]

The rooster miraculous is broken af

[@mj8959]

Thats a great idea

[@yaaaas9778]

I really love both Adrien and Marinette. I don't think that the flaws they have necessarily need to be fixed, but that the writers should show that it's bad. Like you said, Marinettes creepyness serves as comedic relief a lot of times when it should really be adressed as the toxic behavior it is. I don't want those two to be perfect just so they can be perfect rolemodels for kids. But the other characters around really should adress these problems and flaws more so they get the point across, that this creepy or pushy behavior is a flaw

[@incognito2008]

They need to tone both aspects down a notch, maybe even a few notches (especially on Marinette's end)

[@katrinaleahu9369]

Bestie i couldn't agree more. But what I also want to see is not only them to recognise these creepy behaviours as bad but also grow as characters, you know, slowly stop doing them? I personaly would love it

[@yaaaas9778]

@@katrinaleahu9369 trueee, I wanna see some development!

[@clarehidalgo]

Ah yes, the double standard Girl stalker "cute", boy stalker "creepy"

[@yaaaas9778]

@@clarehidalgo I wouldn't say Adrien is a stalker, but I agree the doubke standard sucks

[@strawberrychocolate9383]

I agree with the sad pining. I would rather want him to be friendly towards LB while struggling with his feelings for her instead of constantly expecting her to fall for him or win her over. I would love to see a self-discovery for Adrien.

[@leoniemelodie7]

Imagine in later seasons if Adrien actually becomes a really charming flirt, Cat Noir becomes more serious, respectful of boundaries and reliable, Marinette is still awkward with romantic interactions and ladybug develops feelings for Cat Noir (since he became more mature) but is still awkward af. That's be a cool change of dynamic and would work if the character were like "as a civilian I like this person, but I also have strong feelings for that person! And which relationship would be the most realistic?" as the romance keeps getting bigger and bigger for both pairs. That's be a true love square situation, not just the never ending "chassé-croisé".

[@dbzcupcake]

That would be good writing so I doubt it would happen

[@vermiciousknid2456]

I actually don't want to see Adrien or Cat Noir change. Well I would like to see Adrien stand up to Gabriel and Cat Noir get over Ladybug but I worry if Adrien is too much like Cat Noir somebody will figure out his identity. And the only thing I would want to change about Cat Noir is his love for Ladybug I don't want to change from the flirty joker he is I just want him move on.

[@90lancaster]

I'm guessing Love Square Flip and then a one sided reveal. Even though they have had both kinds of one sided reveal now and both blew up in their face.

[@chrisbowers7523]

@@vermiciousknid2456 this person is not saying that Adrian agreste is going to be all seriousness Adrian agreste is still going to be funny and the same but he is going to realize that maybe he should respect her wish and she will realize that she does have a little bit of felling of love for him and I think that this season we are getting that but first she needs to take a break from the Adrian agreste love thing and start falling for cat noir as friends and become more than friends like Danny and Sam from Danny phantom became a couple after friendship . and don't worry if you remember that the people who are in this show are idiots and to them it would be weird to them.

[@chrisbowers7523]

@@90lancaster agree with you on that one .maybe a one side reveal but then again maybe not .

[@dyland1842]

The issue with the "unrequited love" is that, for the first three seasons, and to an extent the first half of season four, it wasnt that unrequited. What i mean by that is whenever chat flirted with ladybug in the first three seasons she had two main responses, "nows not the time" and flirting back. She showed clear signs of interest in him, whether she actually had interests in him or not. She was also willing to use his feelings to win certain fights, like in dark cupid. So yeah, im not denying that what chat has done is creepy, but if you look at the mixed messages ladybug sent him, then it becomes understandable.

[@demetrivilliers1692]

i don''t think ladybug actually ever lead him on besides in the episode risk tbh and in dark cupid ladybug was unaware that cat noir actually had feeling for her he didn't confess to her untill season 2 glaciator but feel free to name another time ladybug used " cat noir feelings" to win a fight (also up until glaciator ladybug thought that he was just a flirt and didn't actually liked her like that)

[@gabrielleduplessis7388]

Yes, exactly. Also, when he does not flirt with her like in Volpina, she unreasonably got jealous and angry with him. What the heck? Do you want him to flirt or not flirt? Pick one so he is not confused. Oh and keru nekho. She made puns and when he did not laugh (cat walker), she realized she missed cat noir. Do you like his puns or not? Pick one. This is why I don’t like Ladybug and gloss over some of his behavior. While his behavior can come off as annoying or creepy, he is always honest and genuine about it.

[@gabrielleduplessis7388]

@@demetrivilliers1692 well, she knew he flirted and liked her a bit and while I get why she thought the kiss would help, she still insisted on kissing him despite knowing that he liked her. She does not comment on the picture or tell him why it happened until (what’s her name) Natasha painted her against a corner with it during the interview. That is kind of playing with someone, in a way, right?

[@MooNLight21400]

I see it this way. As long as Chat noir doesn't constantly push his flirting on Ladybug. He can love Ladybug all he wants and still be a hero. Also kinda off topic but..... (SPOLIERS) Kuro Neko why did Ladybug immediately fall in love the Catwalker??? She just met him and already finds find him to be PERFECT ☺️ Was it just because Catwalker was Serious and quiet or Is it because he let ladybug take the lead? If so Does that mean ladybug is only into serious people because if that's the case then she need to give up on Adrien😩

[@90lancaster]

@@demetrivilliers1692 They are so busy Flirting in Gigantitan than she nearly comes a cropped because of it - I think it's not out of character I think Marinette has never been noticed by a boy (so far as she knows - the boys would disagree - she's just kinda oblivious to it) and because Cat Noir is so over the top she finally notices and I think she actually likes it (to a degree) if she didn't he wouldn't keep hugging him, and leaning on him, and flicking his bell and tickling and stroking him and calling her "my Kitty" and "Pussycat" and the like. She is SO giving the boy hope.

[@pixelfairy6128]

Unrequited love is always a better storyline than the friendzone, and unfortunately, this show chooses the latter. Unrequited love is "I love them and they don't love me back and that'd something I have to deal with" but the friendzone is "I love you, why don't you love me back, I love you, your friendship is okay I guess but did you know I love you? You should love me, I love you"

[@ivetterodriguez1994]

And it's even weirder because we're meant to want them to be together and even though it's gonna happen eventually she's clearly uncomfortable about it. It feels pushy and I'd rather them be friends.

[@pixelfairy6128]

​@@ivetterodriguez1994 absolutely. I'll be real, I haven't straight up shipped them since maybe mid season 2. Season 1 had a lot of potential but then Kagami and Luka, frankly a better fit and a better influence for the both of them, arrived an made me see- wow,,,, this could be so much better??

[@pixelfairy6128]

@@ivetterodriguez1994 There was also that eency weency detail where Mari found out Adrien was Chat and her infatuation completely shattered as we learn that not only does she just not feel that way about chat.... she barely liked him (at that stage) as a person, let alone as a friend let alone let alone a romantic partner.

[@ladyblubel]

Honestly, Cat Noir’s biggest issue for me is how easily he throws his life away and forces Marinette to solve the problem to save him. I know it’s supposed to be a “show of trust” but it speaks more to how little he values himself, which kinda aligns with how passive he is in everything. How many times are we going to see Ladybug cry over him as a sign of how much she unknowingly loves him (and not like,,, because he keeps forcing her in traumatic situations)?

[@ririchi6062]

Sometimes I often forget that this show is romance-centric, because, the issue is, the mystery aspect of it is much more interesting. I'm more interested in finding out more about the Agreste family and Felix's family, than whenever Marinette is going to confess her stupid love for Adrien. Im not saying mystery and romance can't go tgt, but they're writing the romance so blandly that its completely being outshined by other elements (which sucks bc the show invest most of its time in the romance, hence the mystery goes no where)

[@lemonieeng2695]

Adrien earlier season wasn't really problematic because the reason he was so close to Ladybug was that she is his first and true friend except for Chloe and Felix. He had a reason to do so. But in season 4 he is just so out of character like in Hack San, Sentibubbler, and Kuro Neko

[@z-one5941]

Hack-san was Marinette leaving without telling him, he thought that something happened to the real Ladybug and that "Scarabella" was an imposter who works for Shadow Moth.

[@lemonieeng2695]

True, but he could do better than that.

[@z-one5941]

@@lemonieeng2695 And why didn't LB tell him? Hawk Moth/Mayura have already tried to use fake versions of Ladybug and Chat Noir to trick the others. Imagine seeing a new Ladybug out of the blue. Heck, Marinette didn't even tell him that someone knows her identity. So it made even less sense!

[@demetrivilliers1692]

i feel like in those episodes you named he was reasonably mad and out not of character

[@lemonieeng2695]

​@@z-one5941 Ye. It agree. That's was hypocritical for Mari to do that

[@Hickory958]

Let's be real. While Adrien is only problematic because the writers won't let him be independent of Marinette. This show doesn't care about partnership. Like, Chat learns the same lesson so many times and then they decide "Nope. High school Musical Status Quo." And Ladybug flirts. She's scratches him under the chin, flicks his bell, gives him low eyelid gazes. Plus, she got jealous in season 3 finale and was pissy when he *didn't* flirt with her, like WTHell. Marinette should have learned her lesson with her crush like 3 times now, too: in Puppeteer2, Heart Hunters, and Truth where she's supposed to stop trying to get with people. The real problems with their partnership is her purposely not involving Chat in her guardian duties and then the characters are made to whine about his love for her when that wasn't even the issue being presented. And Marinette is bitchy to people because they hang out with Adrien or she feels inconvenienced. Ex. Ephemeral and Juleka's birthday. Adrien is portrayed as bitchy whenever Ladybug doesn't show up and or his feelings are hurt. This works in Glaciator as a one time thing, but then in Frozer it's confusing since Ladybug didn't do or say anything harsh in that episode. Now, in Season 4 she's definitely being a terrible partner, but then they try to make us think it's about love. In Glaciator 2, literally throwing Chat in the trash is uncalled for, but then later in the episode they show just how obsessed with Ladynoir all of Paris really is, what with all the billboards. However, the problem then doesn't make sense since Adrien already learned the lesson of projecting what he wants onto someone back in the original Glaciator. If you don't care to read all that: Basically, the writers suck

[@kindabatooni9314]

The video pretends CN is not called out or looked down upon because of his behavior. The video pretends he wasn’t undeservingly thrown in trash. The video pretends Ladybug doesn’t flirt back and act touchy feely with him all the time and calls him “hers” when she knows quite well he has feelings for her ( the video laughingly calls it “victim blaming”). Marinette literally broke into Adrien’s house and played in his freaking bed behind his back and no one looks down on her or calls her annoying or throws her in trash. In fact she got away with bullying and sabotaging other girls as well. She’s always praised and rewarded while Cat Noir is humiliated and looked down upon. The video is completely biased as.🤷🏻‍♀️

[@moonie6801]

@@kindabatooni9314 Yeah, I sometimes feel Smarty Pants is too lenient with Ladybug and too strict with Cat Noir. He seems to purposely overlook things. I saw a great comment a while back addressing the "hypocrisy" of reproaching Marinette's behavior (her obsessiveness and possessiveness) and not reproaching Cat's (his unwanted flirting). And the commenter said that he doesn't have to condemn Cat Noir's behavior because the show does it for him. And that's true! Even since season one, he's been called out for not respecting Ladybug's feelings/preferences. But fans have to call out Marinette's behavior because the show never does.

[@Dred0n]

People say Mari hate chat noir flirting but now I remember when she was upset that he stopped in season 3. So what does she want somebody to fawn over her so she can rejects them over and over again.

[@moonie6801]

@StrawberryStar I think you have me confused with the person who posted the original comment. I never mentioned "Ephemeral" or "Crocoduel". ☺️ My guess as to why no one besides Ladybug has chastised Cat Noir for his advances is because they don't see the whole picture. It's what people do all the time. They're superheroes, they work well together, they always have each other's backs, they're very close... And so, naturally, Paris thinks they're a couple. What they don't see, of course, are Cat Noir's repeated attempts to woo Ladybug despite knowing she loves someone else. No one, not even Alya, sees that. But Marinette is supposed to be our "lens" into the show. She is, by extension, the voice of the creators - deciding what is right and wrong, good and bad. And that's typical of most main characters, whether on TV or in books: they speak on their creator's behalf. They are their creator's message to the world on any given topic. And so, when she condemns Cat's advances, the show itself is condemning them, too. The writers are condemning them. That's what I mean when I say that Cat is already being chastised. ☺️ (And I think Plagg, too, has tried to get Adrien to give up on Ladybug, at least on a few occasions...) Usually when people complain about Marinette's behavior, they refer to her "creepy stalker" tendencies and less about her being possessive of Adrien (although both are problems). And while Alya and Tikki (among others) have told Marinette to let Adrien be with other girls (like Lila and Kagami), no one (and by extension the show itself) has condemned her "stalker" tendencies. (I put that in quotes because I, personally, don't see her as a legitimate stalker. It's supposed to be an innocent running gag/endearing character trait.) Tikki will caution her against something, like making a tower of trash cans to get into his room, or disguising herself as a boy to crash his all boys party, or giving him a present when he's depressed to impress him. But we know the show doesn't have a problem with it because Marinette still does it. And what does everyone say? Marinette is the one who really loves Adrien. It's defined as love, not infatuation. Now, at the end of the day, these are characters in a children's show. I get that. And this overly dramatized behavior (flirting, "stalking", etc.) is supposed to be for laughs. But speaking character-wise, I think there is a difference in how Marinette/Ladybug and Adrien/Cat Noir are treated, and not only is it frustrating for fans (especially when they're supposed to be equal partners AND both their names are in the show title), but it's also just bad writing. It's bad storytelling. It's writers who don't really care what they're doing, they're just interested in having fun. And that's my main problem. If you're going to make a competent show, you have to go all the way. Anyway, I hope that better explains my thoughts. ☺️ I'm all for open dialogue on MLB, and I never want anyone to get mad about other's opinions. The fandom can get so heated about stuff (myself included), but I think we should all be friends. ☺️

[@Dred0n]

@StrawberryStar yes I would be confused and also relieved but her expression when he stop all of sudden she kind of seem sad in that episode I can tell you this if chat noir should behave like how he did in season 3 she's going to miss the old chat noir.

[@Artemix4137]

This makes it so clear why so many people love marichat. There’s no creepy stalker marinete. There’s no nice guy chat not taking no for an answer.

[@kiyomi_kamimoto]

I 100% agree. I'm not really a Mari-hater (well, not a huge fan of her, but there are some things about her that I can relate to and some sides of her that I like) nor an Adrien-hater, but I can see the bad sides to them both. That is not a secret, but Mari is way too obsessive, creepy, paranoiac and irrationnal towards Adrien, which is a big problem that I'm tired of seeing humorized in the show. I actually liked her in Glaciator 2 when she says that she doesn't know how to behave herself with boys she holds dear and just starts to imagine stories to reassure her. The part where she says "What people see is not Marinette opening her heart, it's Marinette who tells the fantastic stories she has imagined." touched me, and the end of the episode really made it seem like her love for Adrien is really beautiful and pure, but that is so poorly showed in the show that the next episode we see is again her being overly obsessed with him. It would have been so great to see her just being more confident and less obsessive after this episode... And Adrien has his problems too : I totally agree, the fact he continues to try to seduce her, to romantize everything, to kiss or hug her, always calls her "My Lady" or "Bugaboo" even though she said no multiple times is getting frustrating and annoying to see. Even though he's just a 14 year old boy who doesn't really understand how friendship and love works and the fact he's not a stalker compared to Mari, the way he is written to show his love, being overly jealous and sensitive is a problem and shouldn't be shown as something where he should be the victim. But just like you said, I have some issues with how LB treats him too. The fact she refuses his advances don't bother me, because she has 100% the right to, however, the wa she treats him even when he's doing nothing is not acceptable, even if it's supposed to be humoristic. But that's not what I want to talk about : my main issue with her is how she is shown to tease Cat Noir and encouraging him to continue. If she really wants him to stop, she shouldn't call him "My kitty", touch him like she does, kiss him, and basically everything she is doing rn. That's extremely confusing, for the viewer, and for Cat Noir too, who is told both that his behavior is problematic and that he shouldn't force her, and also that he should continue because she likes it.

[@90lancaster]

I think she'd be worried she'd done something wrong if he stopped calling her "His Lady" anymore. She loves the validation.

[@moonie6801]

So with you on "Glaciator 2". That's why we need Maricat! I think the writers fear that if they change the status quo (Marinette wiping out with Adrien and Cat Noir's continual flirting), people won't like the show anymore and leave. But the opposite would happen: so many people would love it! 💕 "Glaciator 2" had such promise for the love square, and then it just...died.

[@kiyomi_kamimoto]

@@moonie6801 Oh my gosh yes. Glaciator 2 was such a great episode 😭✨ It's really sad that they show and start something great, but then just go back to what it was before... they really don't want anything to evolve in the romance, we know they won't break the love square, probably won't reverse it either seeing how Thomas is _so supportive_ towards MariChat *(sarcasm)* , but if it stays like this too long, the show will really become boring :/

[@90lancaster]

@Fisayo Ajisafe I think she saw it an an indication of the change in status of their relationship as at that time (before season 4) Adrien was a decent enough person to not play dirty on Kagami - season 4 Adrien isn't so considerate though. Season 4 Adrien is kinda awful too - perhaps as a compensation for how terrible they had Ladybug acting it was like every episode she was being a patronising prick like she was in Kwamibuster and Reflektdoll - and doing her typical thing of screwing up and blaming someone else - that she does. Or lampposting that she screwed up ONCE and then acting like it never happened afterwards. She did so much wrong in Miracle Queen - it's a very long list. Oh and fun thought - almost all of Season 4 could be skipped and condensed into a single episode if Gabriel had grabbed Chloe while she was still wearing the miraculous and ran off with her. He'd just like now have a whole set of Miraculous and no box. & the other heroes being out of play makes more sense if Season 4 is ignored as pointless padding - which to be honest is exactly what it probably was the entire time.

[@b7881]

Honestly this season had so much potential for Adrien/Chat Noir, specially glaciator 2... it really looked like they were going to do something different and have him, at least for a bit, try to move on and accept that she didn't like him but the ending with him saying he'll keep trying to win her over just defeated all the character growth we saw. Also with Marinette's reaction to finding out Adrien is Chat noir, it really made her crush on him feel more superficial... she doesn't really see his goofy side any more than Kagami did and yet we are supposed to root for them to be together. The same thing is somewhat true for Chat noir because he puts her on a pedestal but ironically I feel with her distancing herself because of the new heroes its he's actually finally starting to see her as at least a little flawed and so more human.

[@elizaalmabuena]

Honestly, what I liked about Luka as he started being more present in the series is that it permitted a healthy relationship. Kagami a little less, but it could be chalked up to limited social interactions for both her and Adrien which they could maneuver through together. It also seemed a bit refreshing for the possibility of the two leads to not just be 'meant to be' and have it be pushed over and over. A bit unfortunate that the relationships were scrapped almost immediately and they went back to the really dangerous and toxic stuff, they didn't even use them as a way for Adrien and Marinette to learn about being in a relationship. edit: now that I reached the bit. No, a kiss on the cheek is not leading someone on. Remember, this is set up in FRANCE; kiss on the cheek is a normal gesture amongst acquaintances and even a normal greeting towards strangers. Doesn't matter if the individual has feeling for you which you have already made clear are not returned, the kiss is just a common mannerism. That is borderline equivalent to stating (within the US for example) that if she held his hand for any reason (regardless of it having no romantic intention) that it is her leading him on. I get that in many countries/cultures kiss on the cheek isn't the norm, but in this case it is.

[@cielo5907]

Thank you for speaking about this, its really infuriating seeing people excuse his behavior and jab at Marinette only. As someone who's been on the end like ladybug, its not fun, its not easy to let someone down, but when they keep doing it at that point its a boundary issue that keeps being crossed.

[@gabrielleduplessis7388]

Here are the questions we need to ask. 1) why do the characters need to be problematic? 2) why do the creators write the characters as problematic? 3) why do they keep putting most or all their bad traits in this show. I feel at this point that Thomas hates Cat Noir. He neglects him on the show with the Ladynoir storyline in season 4. He gets physically beaten almost every episode when he fights the villains. Than on top of that, they keep making him a “toxic” flirt even when he decides to stop. I think why we let this go is because the writers just dump on him with every bad thing in the book except the guardianship. We feel bad that this one character just gets beaten on all the time.

[@kabsageigj8941]

I hardly call around 7 out of 25 this season "almost every episode" Also can you even point to any flirting after Glaciator 2? Because I can't. He was expressing his feelings to Ladybug in Hack-San but wasn't flirting with her. Rocketear and Wishmaker really didn't have any. Simpleman didn't either and they were dumbed for most of that fight, Qilin has maybe some mild flirtiness but he's certainly not "toxic", Dearest Family has that crown moment which Ladybug has no issue with whatsoever, not much in Ephemeral and he doesn't flirt in Kuro Neko or Penalteam. Not Risk either.

[@Underworlddream]

I think they made him worse in later season because everyone always pointing to Marriette creepy behavior and we know Thomas will do stuff to characters to get back at fans.

[@kabsageigj8941]

@@Underworlddream What has he done this season that's worse than Season 1 Animan or Copycat? Season 2 Glaciator and Frozer?

[@samaragiggles8617]

@@kabsageigj8941 Have you seen Season 4 Lies

[@kabsageigj8941]

@@samaragiggles8617 Yes

[@z-one5941]

The only episode where I consider CN problematic is Glaciator 2, but that was the point. He realized that flirting is wrong.

[@90lancaster]

It was more like he was Terrified that she was going to beat him up - I thought.

[@roxirock5455]

Yea,but the problem is that I don't see that lasting,and that's not the caracters fault,it is the writers,let's be honest here,the first chance they get to an easy free out of jaile card with CatNoire they will take it,they will continue to reuse the same plot and continue to not give any divelopment to the caracters

[@livvworm]

Then he proceeds to act like a child yet again in Frozer

[@francesscaena6822]

I like that this topic is discussed, bc I always, ALWAYS, get dismissed when I explain that Chat noirs pushy attitude reminds me of a guy I used to know who made me uncomfortable on many occasions. He would not stop hitting on me, no matter how often I rejected him. I don't like how the show treats this behavuor as romantic and perfectly fine. Amd everytime I bring that up, I get accused of victim blaming. Bc Adrien is abused and therefore, it's nit allowed to critizise him, ever. I don't say that liking Adrien is necessarily bad, I just wish his stans would understand that people are bothered by it.

[@aarssassin]

6:29 Frrr!!!!Kuro neko was a wrongly interpreted episode ,though it was rlly good I really didn't understand the logic plagg tried to register into ladybug He didn't give up his miraculous because he was in love with her...it had nothing to do with that,not in the slightest He gave up his miraculous because ladybug was keeping him in the sidelines again and not calling him as frequently for missions...There!!that's why he gave it up It was kinda confusing how one half of the episode followed that concept and the other half just forgetting about it

[@clarisacalderon9555]

to be fair plagg isnt the best listener nor the best at articulaing feelings.

[@FeligamiAdrizoeSworaDooplivian]

@@clarisacalderon9555 He's a tsndere! x3

[@MLPLUNAROSE]

Finally someone said it! Both of them are problematic. I'm so tired of people always defending him. Same with marinette

[@topgame2645]

yep

[@kaykay8855]

Both ladybug and cat noir suffers from the whole ‘unrequited love’ trope, but the extent of cat noir’s flirting is just flirting and ladybug either giving a witty/equally flirty retort; but him should have taken the hint and respect ladybug’s boundaries.

[@90lancaster]

He got thrown in a bin for saying "Hey, maybe if we kiss again, our memories would come back!" Quote ///// Ladybug: This is baloney! All of these photos are taken out of context! We were fighting supervillains! (points at a picture of Ladybug kissing Cat Noir from "Dark Cupid") This one is me breaking Cat Noir out of Dark Cupid's spell, (points at a picture of Ladybug and Cat Noir kissing from "Oblivio") and this one... we can't even remember this one cause the villain erased our memories! Glaciator: Of course, it's always the supervillain's fault. But the mind forgets and the heart remembers! (starts to fire ice creams) Cat Noir: Maybe he's right, m'lady. After all, he's still André, the Sweethearts' Ice Cream Maker! Ladybug: (while dodging Glaciator's ice creams) Cat Noir, not now! (Glaciator continues to rain ice creams on them.) Cat Noir: (while spinning his baton) Hey, maybe if we kiss again, our memories would come back! ////// Which is totally in keeping with the tone of their usual banter and usually wouldn't have got him more than a push in the nose, a bell flick, an eye roll or a "silly kitty" remark - I don't think he expected to be assaulted and thrown in the trash in front of witnesses.

[@WarmLillie]

Flirting 101 with Lillie Lillie: “It isn’t about one big jester or the one perfect moment, but the little moments instead.”

[@fatherplatypus2316]

SAY. IT. LOUDER!!!! Like, their characters already in sync with one another: Marinette a designer, Adrien a model. She has a bakery, he wants food. The potentials are endless! They can use more of the Adrien modelling for Marinette's design like in Reflekdoll, more cooking lesson with Tom, have Adrien teach Mari all he knows about designer world, and chinese too, for that matter. There's a LOT of wasted potentials. WASTED IM TELLING YOU!

[@Mariaecm]

y’all, i completely agree. if anything i think ladybug flirts back to shut him up. chat noir will disrupt or give up on a mission just because ladybug turns him down. she constantly has to apologize for not returning his feelings. she has the right to get upset and mad at chat. anyone in that position would get annoyed especially when you have mission to complete.

[@90lancaster]

She's so invested in flirting with him sometimes they both kinda forget they are on a mission.

[@redballoon9007]

11:11 I’d argue that this scene is still problematic because both of them were dating other people (Kagami and Luka) at the time.

[@fresnelbiteu5052]

Ye i didnt like that either. Like why are the writers trying to do fan service when theyre in their own relationships. Butni bet if luka knew he wouldnt mind it because he has no self respect for himself. As for kagami adrien was wrong in how he treated her. I remember in truth where marinette calls luka adrien and she goes my name is luka. My mind is like how are you so realistically okay with your girlfriend liking someone else. Hes one of those sterotypical chill guitar boy who gets turned to a sleevebag later on.

[@diamerald39]

I never thought of Chat Noir that way, but now that you say it, you're absolutely right. He does keep pushing his feelings on Ladybug even when she is extremely explicit about her stance on that for the majority of the time... This being perfect Adrien, I'm sad that he never truly realised how unfair and even disrespectful he's been to her and her feelings

[@keyboardkets379]

I can agree, that Adrien's character has had slight changes though seasons 3-4 and for all the wrong reasons. Don't get me wrong Adrien/Chat Noir character has always been slightly flawed, he's not this "perfect" character. But when it comes to flirting with Ladybug as Chat Noir, Ladybug in the earlier seasons didn't shows signs of having romantic interest in him, but she didn't show signs of not having romantic interest in him either, when Chat Noir would flirt with Ladybug, she at times would flirt back, so this isn't this whole thing where he was flirting her and she was uncomfortable, if she told him to stop, he would stop, for that specific episode. The whole jealousy thing, in my opinion is entirely new, to me that came out of nowhere, he went from flirty and charismatic to jealous and obsessive. This whole season, Marionette qualities got implemented on to him, as for Marionette, yes these earlier seasons she has shown signs of improvement. but her redeeming stalker qualities are there, she also has a acted like she practically owns Adrien when he's around any other female character in the show. In your exact words "it's kinda troubling behavior from a character that's supposed to be, viewed as a protagonist" and like Marionette chasing after Adrien "it's even made the more troubling because the show clearly tries to position you to root for "her" Anyways for everything point you make against Adrien it applies back to Marionette character if not worse in her case if you look at everything she's done then compare to what he's done

[@kindabatooni9314]

The video pretends CN is not called out or looked down upon because of his behavior. The video pretends he wasn’t undeservingly thrown in trash. The video pretends Ladybug doesn’t flirt back and act touchy feely with him all the time and calls him “hers” when she knows quite well he has feelings for her ( the video laughingly calls it “victim blaming”). Marinette literally broke into Adrien’s house and played in his freaking bed behind his back and no one looks down on her or calls her annoying or throws her in trash. In fact she got away with bullying and sabotaging other girls as well. She’s always praised and rewarded while Cat Noir is humiliated and looked down upon. The video is completely biased as.🤷🏻‍♀️

[@FeligamiAdrizoeSworaDooplivian]

@@kindabatooni9314 Exactly!

[@Underworlddream]

I think they made him worse and worse because people been pointing out that creepy things Marriette does and we know the creator does stuff to get back at the fandom, they add Zoe basically a blank slate with no character development and made Chloes a less redeemable because people though Chloe had character development and upset that it was walk backed.

[@keyboardkets379]

@@Underworlddream exactly, I feel like there taking Marionette stalker and obsessive qualities and giving it to Adrien/Chat Noir since people been pointing out how creepy Marionette actions are

[@Dred0n]

And also ladybug to remember how she got upset when he kissed alya hands and how she got upset when he all of sudden stop flirting with her. I really don't understand this show sometimes.

[@SanGal_101]

Honestly, I find it disturbing how many teenage girls and older women defend Chat’s behavior sometimes, especially since they’re prone to being victims of sexual harassment themselves. Kind of tells you how normalized Chat’s pushy behavior is in the real world, even amongst women. Internalized misogyny is a bitch. Edit: another thing to add is that people keep saying that Ladybug “leads Chat on” even though she really doesn’t (and even if she does, that doesn’t justify Chat going against her “no”). Just saying, that’s an excuse REAL harassers use in continuing their poor behavior. Don’t peddle it for this show.

[@incognito2008]

I understand your (and chat noir's)point of view. Imagine this, you've got a love interest and said love interest sometimes flirts back knowing your interested and sometimes they simply brush you off, you're going to be like 'well i really dont know where they're going with this so I'll just keep doing what im doing'. The times she HAS been clear about how she feels (like in glaciator 2) he instantly backs off and shuts up about it, it's a back and fourth kinda thing.

[@hannarow1543]

I want Adrian to be a full protagonist with Marinette. Partly because he needs more time to shine. But mostly because he needs to be the one learning the lesson for once. Instead of Marientte acquiring a spontaneous new personality flaw or having to relearn an old lesson, just for the episode. Adrian is too perfect. To the point where it feels mean to make him address his flaws like flaws which is poison for character development.

[@nekogamer2508]

Won't happen because Thomas Austruc

[@marygraceoyangorin8918]

@@nekogamer2508 sadly....

[@topgame2645]

It won't happen because Adrian is not the protagonist

[@nixthelapin9869]

I actually knew a guy who wouldn’t stop approaching me back in middle school and into high school. We were close friends in middle school (pretty much my only genuine friend, since the group we were in was full of jerks), but we did go to different high schools because of residential zones (we both lived right next to our schools). We still kept in touch, but didn’t really see each other much. Though we were friends in middle school, looking back it’s really clear how creepy he was. One big example was he attitude towards his height- he was always very short, and even after his growth spurt in high school, he was only around my height (5’3”). Not a bad thing in off itself, but because he did get teased a lot for it, even in our friend group (like I said, jerks), he took it to the level of “woe is me,” and would use that to guilt trip me into hanging out with him more because “no one takes me seriously.” I could also tell he had a crush on me because he once made a comment to me about how “my eyes lit up” with a dreamy expression. I just ignored it at the time. When we got to high school, we would still occasionally text, over which he would “drop hints” of his interest. So I not-so-subtly told him I’m not interested in romantic relationships (not in response to those things, I was still not confident enough to do anything but ignore those). Yeah, he still went on. Then one night, he was laying it on really hard as we were talking about middle school, and I could tell he was taking it in the direction of his crush. I tried to end the conversation, since it was late and we both had finals the next day, but he sent this huge text for his confession. Summed up: “I know you aren’t interested, but I want you to know anyways- I’ve been obsessed with you even though we haven’t seen each other for like 2 years.” I still shot him down, but I was dumb, so I didn’t end the friendship. Until junior year, when he guilt tripped me into going as his date to his school event (some award/dance thing) because “all my friends have dates, and if I don’t, they’ll make fun of me.” It worked, and I hated the night. Oh, and none of his friends had dates, so he straight up lied. And during the dance, he kept pulling me closer to him (hand on my waist, I was very uncomfortable) and staring at me with a dreamy look as I pushed him back and literally turned my head to avoid his eyes. I was pissed and I blocked him once I got home. The similarities with Cat Noir are there in how he treats Ladybug: the physical closeness, looking at her with dreamy eyes, not taking "no" for an answer, guilt tripping (though I can't really think of an instance where he lied to guilt her, but I could be wrong), and just being obsessed with her. I don't really like how Ladybug treats him a lot of the time, but I would be throwing him into trashcans too if I had to put up with this as my partner. She doesn't have the option of blocking him. He has a lot of good qualities, so he has the opportunity to grow, but the good behavior doesn't negate the bad stuff- like I said, I was good friends with the guy who creeped on me and I did genuinely enjoy hanging out with him a lot of the time. I really wish the writers would let him grow and understand his behavior isn't okay, because it clearly stems from his social ineptitude and how he grew up (as Cat Noir, he doesn't have to be controlled by his dad, so he basically does whatever he wants with no thought of the consequences). But no, we just get the sad incel boy.

[@AlyssaPerrine]

i come from the tumblr fandom when i say this: hearing your takese is SO refreshing. so many people focus on Coulda Shoulda Woulda, and dont want to acknowledge how they've been WRITTEN-- bad writing or not.

[@twigb6863]

I appreciate you shedding light on all characters and all sides. Of course everyone knows the main problems that are pretty repetitive but I like that you take a fair glance at everyone. It’s actually pretty refreshing

[@KomicalFox]

The way viewers have finally been collectively realizing how bad the romance writing is has been so amazing to watch unfold haha

[@blondesalute]

Okay; here is the moment that made me dislike Adrien. In the episode Dispear Bear, right at the end, Chloe started insulting people and making Mylene cry. And Adrien LAUGHED. Even says fondly, "She'll never change." He laughed when he saw his childhood friend bullying another when there was a whole episode about him standing up to her. Adrien is not a bad character, but he is an enabler and pushover. AND IT IS NEVER ADDRESSED!! Both Marinette and Adrien have some serious character development to get before they should get together

[@jedemu]

I partly agree with your point. I 100% agree with your point that Ladybug shouldn't just accept his love. If she says no, he should not push his feelings onto her, no matter what you feel. I agree that Ladybug isn't doing anything wrong when it comes to rejecting his love. However, I don't agree that that makes Adrien a problematic character. I just think Adrien doesn't know how to decently flirt with a girl that doesn't love him. Remember, Adrien is a teenager that lived a very sheltered life until the beginning of the show. He's a model, so he has a lot of girls who love him, and with the limited of friends Gabe and Emily let him have, I think Ladybug is the first girl that rejected him. I think he just needs to learn how to handle rejection and flirt with girls without being pushy. I doubt Gabe, Nathalie or Gorilla taught him lessons like that. The best thing the writers can do to resolve this, is make Adrien realize that he needs to romance Ladybug in another way. Maybe have Nino or Luka give him advice on how to flirt without being too pushy.

[@marcyram]

no, this does make him problematic as he continues to go after a girl whos told him no. it isnt just him being bad at flirting. its the flirting thats the problem.

[@lightwing897]

From my viewpoint i feel as though the miraculous and the kwami have some influence over personality of the user when transformed. It doesn’t justify the behavior in any sense but that how i’ve been interpreting it and it kind of does make sense. As Marinette she’s clumsy, soft-spoken, and a bit scatterbrained but as Ladybug she’s masterfully acrobatic, out-spoken, and always has backup plans. Which sounds alot like Tiki when you think about it. Adrien is Mr.Perfect, Happy always, and ready to put his wants aside for others. As Cat Noir he suddenly is a lot more emotional and relies more on instinct than logic and only strives to fulfill his wants which sounds a lot like Plagg It doesn’t justify the behavior of cat noir at all and doesn’t make me feel less creeped out at the scenes but it does explain why their hero alter egos are so drastically different from their civilian egos. So a long ramble short. I feel like Plagg’s nature bleeds into Adrien causing him to come off creepy because he’s not use to this array of emotions that plagg gives him

[@90lancaster]

I think that every time I hear Plagg make a joke or a pun. Or when we see Tikki with a plan.

[@angellmaeroberson3169]

Honestly, I feel like the kiss on the cheek was a direct response to Plagg telling Marinette to be nicer to him. I don’t like the implications of that. Like she has to humor him or lose him

[@FeligamiAdrizoeSworaDooplivian]

Plagg honestly yelling at her was something I've needed to see since season 3. My opinion. So do not come at me!

[@evanwebb6374]

The thing that bothers me about their relationship and how it's portrayed is that Marinette will constantly tell him to back off and that she's not interested in him (which is fair if she doesn't like him), but as soon as he shows interest in or pays more attention to someone else she gets upset and questions whether or not he likes her anymore, Adrien even asked her if she was jealous because of how upset she acted when he stopped calling her m'lady/bugaboo or whatever in season 3 (at least I think it was season 3, but feel free to correct me). If she really didn't like him, she would have no problem with him finally backing off as she's been telling him to do for months, and they'd both finally be able to move on. Marinette wouldn't have to do with his constant flirting she claims to hate so much (despite being upset when he stops for some reason), and Adrien, despite probably still being upset about being rejected, would be able to move on and they'd have a healthier relationship to better work together. If you tell someone for months on end to stop flirting with you, don't just backtrack and ask whether or not your still the center of their attention and get upset when they move on.

[@roxirock5455]

I fell like I CatNoie is the one who learns from his mistakes and grows the most,but the problem here is the inconsistent characters,no matter how much I think he understands the lesson and progresses,the next episode all of that can be erased and it wodent be a surprise,also this is the reason Marinette is so anoying,she has been doing it for 4 seasons,and every time she learns a lesson,we all know that her progression will be erased for plot convince most likely,which I can't even blame the characters for,but it's still annoying how you don't really get a felling of satisfaction watching this show,the characters never learn or grow,their personalltys or actions barley change at all

[@90lancaster]

If the writers were a bit less forgetful they could at least make her keep more to the things she decided to change and invent a new problem for her to "get over" It makes her look dishonest to tell him she's going to respect his feeling and then go back to ignoring him again. Like missing Patrol for example.

[@angiecakes04]

i get ya I really do but its how the writers wrote him like one min he accepts LB loves someone else and next min he flirts non stop if anything blame those writers 😭😭

[@awesomepbear233]

Marinette’s stalker behavior and Chat Noir’s aggressive flirting aren’t things that make me want to root for their relationship. Both of those things don’t seem healthy. That’s why it was nice to see Adrien and Marinette with Kagami and Luka. Adrien and Kagami understood one another with their strict parents. Marinette didn’t have to act all anxious and obsessive around Luka. They were two healthy relationships that had potential but were broken up for the purpose of having the main protagonists end up together.

[@FeligamiAdrizoeSworaDooplivian]

And that's why the show writers suck! And if someone goes to a comic con. Say it to their face!

[@НиколаПавлов-м7б]

As an Adrien fan, I agree with this video. But I gotta say I kinda like the fact that, you know, he has some pretty toxic traits. Why? Because (in my opinion) when a character has a lot of flaws, he has a lot of room to grow as a person by realising that what he is doing is wrong (whether it is the easy or the hard way) and facing consequences. The idea of a character like Adrien having so many flaws is really interesting to me. Him becoming Cat Noir didn't just give him freedom, but it also slapped him with some bitter but important (for him) truth. He wasn't taught this by his parents, he was just ordered around. He had to be taught another way. This is also a pretty good idea to teach children the importance of acknowledging your flaws/mistakes and putting in effort to fix them and becoming a better person in the process. But I also agree that Adrien's actions are treated too lightly. For me, his family life and upbringing are definitely a big part of the reason behind his toxic behavour (but I'm in no way saying that they justify it). I guess if he faced consequences it would be fine.

[@FoamyADC]

i didn’t know Sentimonsters can be problematic

[@kickyouinthegrass4672]

even tho most of them end up destroying half the city in the show?

[@FoamyADC]

@@kickyouinthegrass4672 only if they get cataclysmd

[@kiyomi_kamimoto]

I don't see how the fact he may be a sentimonster has something to do with the video buuut- 🤷‍♀️ Also, sentimonsters are created by Hawkie and are used to create chaos in Paris because they are super villains so...

[@kaekaesam6240]

My GOSH Finally! Ok here we go, look at this way, Marinette actually knows stuff about Adrien! Like personality, his family life, his friends, and his social Dynamics. and she even tries to help him out and cheer him up!, it’s adorable and romantic, but of course she comes off as a; creepy stocker, crazy girl!? Like seriously 😒 is this the same light given to Cat Noir a total stranger(well at least that’s how it is in the story). They don’t know each other’s identities! My thing with him is that he only loves; the strong, butt kicking, girl in red tights! He doesn’t know who she is or anything about her, outside super hero team work-….. that to me is crazy. I do emphasize with having a crush is a difficult thing, even on both parts! But my stance on this is pretty crystal clear, I mean without suit and powers ladybug is Marinette and I can’t believe Adrien is so smooth brain as not to see it honestly, (It’s so painful) but o well, the show must go on!

[@shami5enwow]

Adrien has always been fascinating to me cause when I see Cat Noir and his behavior, I feel like if Adrien had not been raised to be a perfect model and he wasn't conventionally attractive but still homeschooled, then he would have been like some kind of an outcast/nerd. The fact that the 'pretty boy' archetype and the guy that blurts out stupid shit and acts like a literal furry are the same person is amazing. I'll always remember the scene where Cat Noir joked about how all the girls were into Adrien but not him. In his mind, a catsuit should be more seductive than wearing versace on a vogue magazine. That's hilarious. About the actual content of the video though, yeah he's not the best when it comes to boundaries. I don't think anyone has talked to him about how to approach girls, he only knows what to do when girls approach him. I can even go a bit..freudian and say that Adrien is kind of into women that come off cold/aloof and have a bit of a superiority complex just like his father. Ideally, I hope that Mari/Lady can teach him to appreciate his own self-worth and value his independence, while he can teach her that it's okay to need others and that she doesn't have to be talented, special, competent, always successful, etc. to be worthy as a person. The trope in general though...yeah it's been around I guess. Maybe it's getting acknowledged as problematic and it will go out of style. Actually Ladybug stalking is tamer than some older shows I l know like Chowder with that Panini girl.

[@aliiqwn8778]

I disagree that the 'creepiness' is integral to Marinette's character that you can't really separate it, I feel people focus too much on episodes where she has crush stuff with Adrien. There's many episodes where her focus isn't on Adrien at all and we get to see her outside of a marketing box. My thing is, the 'romance' aspect was something that has been severely warped and misguided since I think around season 2 or 3, season 3 especially has this issue. I don't like. want to say that the 'creepiness' is intentional because it isn't, like the reason we don't have 'development' for it is because it's just a writing issue where the writers wish to self-project and fetishize onto Marinette (and Adrien as this video proves). Like, if I recall from the writers, her creepiness was /always/ treated as just a joke to them. It will never be something important or integral to her character on purpose, it's not intentional. Just as Adrien's creepiness isn't inherently intentional either. I feel like we have swan dived so far from season 1 that people sorta forget season 1 is inherently the building block entirely of what service we are getting as a show. Season 1 was what was supposed to be intentional of both Marinette and Adrien as characters. It doesn't help that the episode release schedule is so out of whack that it takes like years or so for a new season to release so our brain is so clouded by the waiting time and only focused on 'newer' episodes that we forget the writing intent of both Marinette and Adrien -- then we go on this spiel that this ooc writing is what these characters were 100% like from the start.

[@izzy1356]

Massive agree. The minute you take away the romance sub-plot from both Mari and Adrien, they're instantaneously more enjoyable to watch. Especially when they're throwing friendly jabs at each other in their hero forms (like "there's only one goody-two-shoes here and I'm not her"), or Adrien's venting to Mari about modeling or his family. There's a *lot* of genuinely good moments between them in the show... and unfortunately it's buried super deep under the writers' bizarre (and frankly twisted) idea of what "true love" is.

[@emmaw2672]

100% agree with you. One of the things I was thinking too is - yes Marinette is creepy - no doubt about it 😅 but I feel it's a little different with Cat Noir. Adrien doesn't know Marinette loves him and has never asked her to stop. She isn't trying to force her love on him and make him accept her love. Adrien has never asked her to stop. However, it is the opposite with Cat Noir.. he is trying to make Ladybug accept his love and even tho she wants him to stop he won't. He knows it makes her uncomfortable. 😬😬😬😬 Ugh I wish the writers wouldn't do this to him. They are messing up such a beautiful character.

[@90lancaster]

I like to hope he is the way he is as he wants to cherish and protect her, and not just because he's lonely and she's available - I think he is genuine - for the reason if he wasn't he'd not have treated Kagami so poorly as he did.

[@lunarplumas5525]

He doesn't know to tell her to stop. [Edit] that's how stalking works. You don't know it's happening until they get bold and blow their cover. He has shown how uncomfortable his rabid fans' actions make him and yet Mari has never made the connection between them and her actions

[@Nuwairaahmed333]

Yes agree and also when things comes about bad habbits comparison shouldn't be involved in it

[@LexysamaIllustrations]

@@lunarplumas5525 Actually that's not how stalking works. Stalking is related to harassment and intimidation and unwanted attention. Marinette has never done any of those things to Adrien. In fact Adrien has said that Marinette is special to him and according to Party Crasher and Puppeteer 2, actually wants Marinette around. He has no problem spending any time with Marinette. And Marinette doesn't like him because she's a fan, she likes him because he's kind. She wasn't even a fan of his until after she met him in school and he apologized for the gum incident.

[@foxial5358]

@@LexysamaIllustrations It is stalking. Whether a victim is aware of their stalker or not, there´s no question what Marinette does to Adrien is just creepy stalking. Sabotaging his love life, humiliating his girlfriends, being absurdly jealous, following him around the city, following him to ANOTHER COUNTRY, having a GPS tracker on him, breaking into his home, stealing from him, knowing his entire schedule, searching Kagami's phone just to see if she's texting Adrien, having pictures of him all over her room, even taking a strand of his hair etc. are all horrible things that victims of stalkers have to endure irl. But because her creepy behavior is just meant to be played for laughs, no one, including Adrien, is bothered when she does creepy things. If it was a character like Lila or Chloe doing any of these things that Marinette always does to Adrien, both of them would be just demonized by the narrative.

[@hyo-the-snow-king]

The show should change names to " the problematic tales of ladybug and cat noir"

[@Inuyasha619]

I see him as understandable. Not ok. But understandable. He grew up with Chloe as only friend and always having to be perfect. The only place he doesn't have to pretend is with Ladybug. That's what makes him love her so much. And I think it's hard for him. Cause he sees her rejections and turndowns as his true self being unwelcome. Is it ok no. Is it understandable. Yes.

[@ChaoticbratDND]

Does she lead him on? Yes. She has a LOT this season 4. Cat Walker, Hacksan, Glaciator 2, Ephemeral are almost 90% her manipulating him in some way that could EASILY be interpreted as leading him on. I do agree with 90% of wat u say, that the show really pushes for "sad boy keeps getting rejected" or "keep pressuring her to ware her down!" And I hate that. It's creepy and gross how forced this can get. Dude needs to chill just a bit, but so does she. I'm pretty sure I couldn't lead on a guy I'm not interested in or manipulate him into doing what I want. Adrien needs better writters/Marinette needs a better personality

[@annieandelsieofarendelle3294]

It would actually be more interesting if Chat Noir realizes he needs to stop being dependant on others for his own emotional security.

[@clearlycloudy-ci6yn]

I find it interesting how it was pointed out that they’re both heros for their good nature. This is because back in season 1 (that part thing how we find out how they both developed feelings for one another), Marionette only started crushing on Adrien once she discovered how nice he really is and Chat Noir seemed to appreciate Ladybug’s impressive strategy and confidence in doing so especially with that line “whoever’s behind that mask, I love that girl” (I’m going off memory so it might not be the actual quote) happening right after she did a grand display of heroism. In the opening, there’s that part where Marionette swoons over Adrien and Chat Noir does the same for Ladyug. It feels like a marker for how they both long for each other in different forms and implement it to be a fundamental formula for the show and I feel like something is trying to be told with that. Marionette is not completely confident in herself. This is often shown when she will rely on others to cheer her up in order for her to move on with a plan in saving the day (I feel like this gets even further pushed when she tried to be more in control as the new guardian and fearing the capturing of all the kwamis because she doesn’t know if she could face it on her own as she sees herself as the leader and responsible for everything). Marionette even stammered in front of Adrien out of fear of getting rejected because she didn’t believe it could work out (she even needed a casual date in season 5 to feel ready to have an intimate relationship with Adrien). It seems she became a little codependent on Adrien when she was crushing on him because she wanted someone perfect like that to be there for her when she didn’t feel adequate enough (this is a big hypothesis, I don’t know how she feels). As for Adrien, it seems with his home life of loosing a mother and growing ever so distant with his father, he idolized ladybug because he knew he could trust her through everything and that through every ridiculous object she could find a plan and hope with anything (back in like season 2(?) he said he would always trust ladybug when she told him to jump off a building from the gorilla’s hand). Idk I could be reading too deeply into this (like WAY too deeply) but I think it could make sense and describe the stalkery feeling that their relationship seems to have but also the natural comfort they seem to have with each other regardless because like what was said in the video, their relationship does have some actual good moments on its own without the identity crush thing. Edit: Oh wow I just saw how long this is I’m so sorry lol

[@martinezti]

i think it all comes down to the show addressing that chat is being pushy with his feelings while marinette gets no consequences for her actions. chat gets called out but never changes, which repeats the same scenario again and again with ladybug calling him out for this “problematic behavior”. at the same time, the same characters from the show root for marinette and help her his her own “problematic behavior” the writers are doing an awful job with this couple, to the point that i don’t even know if i want them to be together at this point. it’s all too toxic + i completely understand when chat feels left out, not because of him being in love, but because he’s supposed to be the other main hero!! right now it makes no difference with him in the episode or not. he’s just another side character

[@federicofranco6419]

I honsetly got it all wrong, and assumed you were going to analyse the character per se and not the context. Which is unfair as I've seen videos from you and should have expected it. You're absolutely spot on! Chat Noir feels like a big attempt at justifying the (mostly male) demand for requited love. Like "I care about you, so you should care about me!". It is damaging to see the negative behaviour he can present and then try to make us all go "aw, but he loves her so much!". It makes girls second guess themselves and doesn't hold boys accountable for their actions. It is creepy indeed. Especially because, like you said, Adrien is perfect per se, but Chat Noir isn't. It's like, "but I'm a nice guy". Adrien is literally the "nice guy". That kind of guy that has trouble with relationships, and will probably blow up at you if you refuse him, because he thinks being a nice person equals deserving what he wants, which he ends up demanding. The show shows us both his side, the nice one that you can fall for, and the secret demanding/pressuring side, which would be sooooo good if only it didn't use the former to justify the latter.

[@-Addie]

I honestly think ChatNoirs obsession comes from his father. He never gets any attention from his only parent so when he finds someone who treats him like an equal (well used to ) he clings to that. If you think about it it's not right but still has a valid reason where Marinette has no reason. He shouldn't push it like he does but he does have mental abuse that makes him the way he is.

[@tell-me-a-story-]

How do people like this? He likes her, she likes Him, and they can’t be together because they don’t know who each other are? This has GOT to be insanely annoying.

[@theaboveaveragefangirl]

I have no idea what made the writers think that romanticizing aggressive flirting and creepy obsessions is a good idea. It's premium cringe.

[@cookietastik603]

In the end of the day they're both as bad and as good. But Cat noir IS very pushy especially since Ladybug has told him millions of times that she loves someone else, he dosn't take the time to think: "i love ladybug.. so if someone else tried to flirt with me and push me into dating them I would be mad too" LIKE ADRIEN, ADRIEN of all people, who has every girl after him and isn't in love with them should know how Ladybug feels about his behaviour, but in the same time Ladybug does lead him on alot and it gets confusing sometimes of what she actually wants it's like shes thinking: "oh well I guess until I can finally open my mouth and say the words I LOVE YOU to Adrien I'm just going to flirt back to Cat noir so I feel less alone" they're both kind of annoying for this

[@MegiMoon]

I think you missed talking about part that in season 4 Chat noir is actually flirting less with Ladybug and his biggest problem with her isn't love but being replaced and ignored as a partner. Ladybug keeps him in the dark far TOO MUCH. Let's bring up Chat's idea about getting back other miraculouses. Yeah first try was wrong because Ladybug was angry BUT he asked same question when they were both chill and more ready to talk but it ended again with Ladybug saying no and not even considering giving Chat some more stuff to do to help her. On top of that she confirmed that in her eyes Chat turned into holder like any other, messed with his feelings with a kiss to shut him up and then was all like ,,Ah you were amazing bestie~" with Alya who seems to have more important status than Chat beside fact of being holder of second most powerful miraculous. Alya knows who Ladybug is, knows where all miraculouses are, have miraculous to keep for herself, helps with getting back miraculouses. Arien really tries to help Ladybug more to point of even trying to be different Chat noir. I won't even mention how hypocritically Ladybug was falling for Cat walker. That really leads people to believe that Marinette is in love with idea of Adrien, not Adrien himself. Cat walker was pretty much Adrien in cat form and she was falling for ,,perfect boy". Adrien's love for Ladybug isn't a problem this season. His problem is luck of trust from Ladybug since she turned into guardian. I would say everything went downhill since she told Alya about herself. She should have just tell Chat that she feels like she is having too much to deal with and in that moment they should have a talk about how they could split things between each other like partners should do. Instead she broke in front of Alya and started ignoring Chat noir.

[@queerslovebts]

At this point the writers clearly ignore the past episodes as they don't matter at all. In furious fu he was ready to gave up on his miraculous if ladybug asks him so, like tf that 'i can be free as cat noir' that whole damm shit. In kuro neko instead of reacting like 'how can she think about replacing me', he decided to change himself to please her. Fuck his character has ended up being him a simp for ladybug! That's it! (This has nothing to do with sentimonster theory btw)

[@Allthingsasian]

It’s kind of disturbing when you think about the fact that literal kids watch this show and so are probably going to be influenced by the behaviour shown in the series. Meaning Astruc is basically condoning stalking and overall creepy behaviour to be interpreted as romantic. Like yeah, when you are an adult, you watch this show and know what’s right and wrong and so can dismiss the stalking because you know it’s not an acceptable kind of behaviour. But thinking about a 4 or 5 year old watching this makes the situation so much more disturbing 💀

[@doobeedoobeedoobah4461]

Idk it's more of problematic writing than problematic protagonists to me

[@FeligamiAdrizoeSworaDooplivian]

Yep.

[@najthebubble2887]

The writers are making the main conflict in S4 between Ladybug and Chat Noir love-related as opposed to it being about trust and confidence in a close working relationship. Yes, their romantic relationship is an important driver of the plot but it shouldn't be the main focus in this instance. This season should be about their effectiveness as a duo being compromised due to Ladybug's appointment as the guardian. Chat Noir's struggle should be about him being excluded from important guardian-related matters despite being a miraculous holder since day 1. Similarly, Ladybugs struggle should be about the guilt she feels when she's excluding Chat Noir, not, "ALl I wAnT iS A PaRtnER tHat'S nOT iN LoVe WItH mE." Kuro Neko addresses this issue pretty well but there's still an element of romance that doesn't need to be there. Also, we need this conflict to be explored in more than one episode.

[@WarmLillie]

Both sides are a gentleman, Adrien such a nice guy and even with flaw there beautiful. But Cat Noir might be a gentleman but he’s more of a super simp. Don’t fix what isn’t broken, but Catnoir could a bit of attitude adjustment. I’m not talk about Ladybug beating him to the ground.

[@ceciliafaith4132]

This is the reason why the ONLY healthy love square relationship is MariChat. These two are too immersed in the idea of another person, and they need to learn how to love and care about both sides.

[@missroyaltea4012]

even though chat is a flirt i dont think hes in the wrong ecpically with ladybugs behavior. when chat has stopped flirting ladybug has negative reactions to it, she gets jealous and upset. not to mention she flirts back, kisses him, and then treats him like trash. she is very much leading him on and creating a bad situation no matter what chat dose. im not saying is wrong for her to not want him to flirt, but she cant be upset when he dose stop.

[@ChristopherCapersJones]

The reason why Plagg tore into Ladybug was due to essentially making Cat Noir feel useless or unneeded.

[@90lancaster]

Also she never even seemed to notice there was anything wrong with him and saw his love as a burden -and the show is very vague with the Cat Blanc hints - so we have to infer that is why she's so broken by it in Kuro Neko and not just guardian stress and selfihness.

[@assaultgaming6614]

I honestly don’t like the way they portray Adrian/chat noir acting like he’s nothing without ladybug and I don’t like how sometimes they act like he can’t hold his own in a fight like for example rocketeer he was a fucking punching bag. And this whole relationship and the reveal it’s just never going to happen they act like they can’t be together because of hawk moth but there is a way to work around that but the writers don’t want to do that because the show would be over too quick

[@jamesglamstar6946]

They both need a school counselor abandonment issues for Adrian and martinet probably a better explanation of high school crushes

[@gigiisaweirdo8175]

I’m sad but this will cheer me up even it’s about chat/adrien being weird

[@ysarmestr9198]

About the kiss on the cheek, in France it's not necessarly romantic, especially if the girl said right before she doesn't have romantic feelings for him. It shows a strong affection which was, in my opinion, something very nice to do after rejecting him.

[@zoinksscoop20yearsago68]

They are making chat a "nice guy™", creepy smirk and fedora included. And it's just sad. «That “no” can't stop me because I'm deaf ;)» Can they just... idk... make them move on?

[@karencarter18042]

Let's no forget he said "whoever this girl is under that mask I love her" , that is not love . Of course a big problem for Adrien is the fact he does not seem to have any healthy relationships in his life to show him how to treat a love interest. Has he talked about Plagg and Tikki cause Plagg has called her "sugar cube" and Tikki has told him to stop. This could bring up an interest point does Cat Noir love Ladybug all on his own or is Plagg some how influencing Adrien? Which could lead into, have any of the pervious holders of the ladybug earring and black cat ring been in a romantic relationship

[@alainagray45]

I have to say, while previous seasons have shown him being pretty problematic, I think this season has taken a step in the right direction. After Glaciator 2, Adrien learns a hard lesson: that he can’t keep forcing himself on ladybug. She shows him she doesn’t like his advances with methods that were pretty harsh, but did the trick. Ever since that episode, Adrien’s pining for Ladybug has decreased drastically. In the new episodes, he barely flirts with her, and when he does, she tends to flirt back(and lead him on, but I won’t get into that). One of Adrien’s flaws, I feel, is his guilt. Anything bad that happens, he tends to immediately blame himself. If he pushes boundaries or gets upset, like in Glaciator, he immediately apologizes when he finds out what he did was wrong. Glaciator 2 was another example of this where he found out that the way he was acting hurt ladybug, and he immediately stopped. Sure, Chat Noir has always been pushy, but ladybug never really put her foot down until that episode. Before, she would even flirt back. So it would make sense why he didn’t stop. But now he has, and I feel that it’s important for people to acknowledge. The times where he was angry in the episodes after Glaciator 2, he was upset for completely valid reasons. Ladybug being hypocritical, not treating him like a partner, etc. People are complaining about the lack of character development, but fail to notice how much of that Adrien is getting, despite his limited screen time. This whole season has been a journey for him, and I feel that it’s just getting started, since there are so many things that still need to be revealed to him. Does he still love ladybug? Yes, but he isn’t pushy anymore. Love isn’t something you can switch on and off. And character development isn’t getting over your crush. He has grown, just in a different way than some people may have pictured.

[@Sam_Kings]

I think the main problem with Adrien's/Marrinettes relationship is that it has not been allowed to develop, at all. Marinette remains as a creepy stalker and Adrien as an obsessive flirt. The love square is becoming more and more toxic with each passing season and considering that it is the main selling point of the show to most people it would be nice to see this dynamic change. The writers really missed out on a chance to develop both the characters by ending their alternative relationships so quickly, as even if they still want Adrien/Marinette to be the end game it would have done the characters some good to experience healthy relationships. So, on the whole, I agree with you. I just don't think the writing going to change.

[@suenicole8979]

At this point, I'm starting to feel like the whole love story and love square factors are just making this a bit more complicated and less enjoyable. I love the show and I found the romance factor between Marinette and Adrien cute at first with the little antics but now it's just turning into overkill. It's come to a point where I just want to a wholesome episode of epic battles, happy good times, suspense filled mysteries and hilarious comedy. However, when it gets to crazy stalking, love confessions that go nowhere and lack of communication between partners that is never acknowledged or fully resolved which complicates things more then it just becomes a recipe for an unnecessary headache over something that can be resolved but the people who should be resolving it somehow make it more complicated. I wonder how things would be if they made the show with Marinette and Adrien's relationship in both their civilian and hero lives was like a close best friend or sibling like bond and then the romance can come in later which would add development to the story and make more sense in Adrien's tendency of saying that Marinette's just a friend cause it would aid in Adrien's emotional growth as he realizes he does love Marinette and maybe didn't acknowledge it cause he thought it might ruin the friendship or make things awkward, and Marinette could be a similar case which could reduce the stalking tendencies and let her have a normal friendly bond with Adrien instead of wasting time on pointless plans that go nowhere and make no sense.

[@thomascircle245]

I can't believe it took until now for me to realize the possible symbolism of one of Chat's powers being his staff that grows longer, which is often what moves him around.

[@ktostam35]

I honestly thonk she kinda enjoys flirting with Chat, but she blocks out all the 'I may like Chat Noir actually' thoughts because she knows that heros shouldn't know rach others identities or date each other. Sometimes they get so into flirting that they forget they're fighting. So, I think she turns hin down because she wants their identity to stay safe, but she also is obsessed with Adrien so she doesn't want to think about liking Chat. She has every right to turn him diwn and he should respect that. But the writers went "nope, let's yeet them into friendzone trope and make them act out of character". Honestly I feel like the pv version makes more sense. In the pv version Felix wants Ladybug to love him bc of her luck, while Brigette is in love with Felix who doesn't care about her. I feel like their duo is better since then the friendzone thing would make sense.

[@ktlady6731]

Adrien, oh. Let's call him Gary Stu.

[@3ialhdb]

yes

[@saramcmurtrie3955]

Well to be fair Adrien dies not invade her privacy or anything serious all he does is flirt.Which is still bad but if put in perspective it is the lesser of two evils.

[@blueotter5954]

I would like to reclaim that Adrien used to actively fix himself. In the NewYork special, Chat went out of his way to learn what rose would be okay to give to Ladybug. It was small, but a step in a better direction. However, I do see that the writing team, or general direction, for Adrien/Chatnoir has changed since that episode.

[@fresnelbiteu5052]

Ok so i dont think chat noir/ adrien is creepy or problematic.He does flirt with ladybug but at the same time i never had a problem with it since ladybug leads him on and flirts back with him. Like in the season 3 finale she got jealous when he was flirting with ryuko or in volpina she got jealous when he was flirting with volpina. Or in hack san when she tells alya to laugh at Chat noir jokes even if theyre not funny. As for the kuro neko epsiode they made love the problem when it had nothing to do with that hes been neglected in season 2-4. Ladybug didnt aknowledge her wrongs and put the blame on him. They made it come off as if chat noir was being sensitive when he had all the right to be mad. He also said sorry which he didnt need to. She often contradictes herself by saying cat noir is irreplacable but she was trying endlessly to replace chat noir. So in my opinion no adrien isnt problematic marinette is. I still dont ship them. Any ship with adrien would be more healtheir like lila and adrien or chloe and adrien. On another note: lila has a right to hate ladybug. Marinette abused her superpowers to pubicily embarrass her but she takes her dislike with ladybug too far.

[@kardelenkoc9746]

tbh even if marinette and adrien did exactly the same thing it wouldnt be the same. marinette's family and friends can guide her and tell her if she is wrong. marinette had a lot of social interactions all of her life. but even if adrien's dad tells him to act a certain way because its the "right" thing or way to do it. so when adrien does something wrong it is (to me) more normal and totatlly mistake. its easier for marinette to correct herself but adrien doesnt have a clue and cant acquire a clue so he cant really learn. he is not totally blind either, he can emphatize and he thinks about things and emotions, he is trying to understand things in his life

[@snatchingcareers4681]

I’m confused about how I feel in his problematic behaviour with pushing the idea of him and Ladybug being together. When it’s creepy and he’s pushing it to hard I’m totally against it but when Ladybug is like giving him cheek kisses, jealous and still flirting with him I’m like thought you didn’t want to be together? It’s like she’s showing she’s giving him a chance, some part of her likes him and it’s annoying

[@kindabatooni9314]

The video pretends CN is not called out or looked down upon because of his behavior. The video pretends he wasn’t undeservingly thrown in trash. The video pretends Ladybug doesn’t flirt back and act touchy feely with him all the time and calls him “hers” when she knows quite well he has feelings for her ( the video laughingly calls it “victim blaming”). Marinette literally broke into Adrien’s house and played in his freaking bed behind his back and no one looks down on her or calls her annoying or throws her in trash. In fact she got away with bullying and sabotaging other girls as well. She’s always praised and rewarded while Cat Noir is humiliated and looked down upon. The video is completely biased as.🤷🏻‍♀️

[@Dred0n]

Thank you and well said👏👏👏👏

[@3ialhdb]

@@kindabatooni9314 your completely wrong the whole fandom calls her out but everyone gives Adrien a free pass just because of his past. No one calls him out and is clear Ladybug is uncomfortable with his flirts your trying to justify his actions by calling out Marinette when shes already being called out up to a million times already, the people in the fandom dont acknowledge Adrien cause of HiS sAd PaSt. oh and Marinette is not always praised her actions have led her to more stress and burden and now all the miraculous are lost. You can say all you want but that wont change that Adrien is also problematic and creepy as well

[@kindabatooni9314]

@@3ialhdb I am not wrong because unlike you , I have facts on my side. This not an opinion it’s a fact. I think you’re completely ignoring huge things here, first Adrien is not creepy, friendly flirting is NOT creepy and it never goes beyond that because he never forces himself on her ever and she herself engages many times and even starts the flirting many times and calls him hers and yet Adrien was called out in the show and was horribly thrown in trash by Marinette who dared to kick and hit and throw him in trash when she literally broke into his room and played in his bed and was never called out or punished for it. People always give Marinette excuses like she’s just 14 or she’s stressed… that’s not the point, most of the characters in this show are 14 yet they are punished and humiliated by Marinette over much lesser things than what she did. The double standards of the show and hypocrisy are as clear as day. It’s a fact. She was never called out for her terrible treatment of Cat Noir calling him names , hitting him , putting him down and humiliating him when he mess up while she in return gets encouraged , praised, rewarded , got her spirit lifted and get supported. When she lost all the miraculouses not a single person blamed her and all of Paris shouted her name and Cat Noir called her the best hero to ever exists 🤦🏻‍♀️ When Cat Noir mess up in a much smaller way than her she puts him down , makes fun of him , rubs his failures in his face , hits him and calls him untrustworthy and she doesn’t apologize or gets portrayed as wrong for that. It’s terrible and it’s all facts.

[@beccad3296]

I partly wonder whether Cat Noir's over the top flirtation comes from his lack of social skills and not really knowing a better way. But then, he should respect her requests for him to stop.

[@rebeccapayne5760]

You have to remember that this is a French show set in Paris where kissing someone on the cheek is a traditional greeting so ladybug kissing chatnoir on thw cheek shouldn't be seen as leading him on. Anyway, keep up the good work!

[@hannahp7198]

Yeah, there were some times that Cat Noir might have been a little much, but at least for me it never got to the point where I felt like he was pushy and not respecting Ladybug. Adrien also doesn’t exactly know how relationships work, because of his abusive dad and the fact that he was closed off from the world for a time. But I think the writers should make it more clear for the kids, and just anyone who is watching this.

[@otakupower1048]

I think having a strong platonic friendship is valid. Like they care for each other and trust each without it being romantic because they honestly ruined the romance for me.

[@superstar-zn7wn]

Marinette haters and Adrien haters can be equally toxic no matter which character has worse writing. Some will just put too much energy into hating a character and that results in biases sometimes.

[@mrtotle1285]

Whats the point on hating them when they know god damn well that the writing is terrible

[@superstar-zn7wn]

@@mrtotle1285 exactly

[@miraculouslymiraculous6150]

I think you do have a point, but every time he leaves, it's not because Ladybug didn't reciprocate his love, but because of the secrets. 1. He was about to renounce his miraculous in Syren because LB wouldn't tell him who she keeps seeing. 2. He renounced his miraculous in the NY special because he couldn't handle the guilt of almost killing someone. 3. He renounced his miraculous in Kuro Neko because the whole season he feels like she's been pulling away from him and keeping secrets, that their dynamic isn't the same anymore and all that, however the episode did make it out to be about "love" which I disagree with.

[@tonyal8839]

I also didn’t know that saying no multiple times was sending mixed signals. Wow you learn something new

[@jj1abb]

I honestly never saw it that way. Taking a moment and looking back at it I can see your point and where you're coming from. The main reason I didn't see it as a problem on Chat Noir's part since Ladybug would either laugh at it or tease back at it. When she was serious it was rare and things went back to business as usual. She would say she wanted things to be strictly business but would turn around and start back joking around. I believe Glaciator 2 was the first time Ladybug put her foot down and explained how it made her feel. All the other times she either backtracked by not sticking with what she wanted. I can understand not wanting nicknames anymore because it made her uncomfortable but she was the one that started back up with using nicknames. Which doesn't make sense if her goal was to have Chat Noir see her as nothing more than a friend with no room for the idea of being something more. Chat Noir did push his feelings and stopped to the best of his f abilities. Since Ladybug is his first crush, he is failing miserably at it. When Kagami came into the picture, that honestly helped for a bit so he could not focus on Ladybug. That ended up failing as well. He can be dense at times but Dearest Family showed him making an effort to stick with not using nicknames. The talk should have happened a lot sooner in a calmer way. It was working for a bit until he started to feel it was okay to not stay strictly business as the pair started to joke around more.

[@sapphiregemhi5051]

this is like the only comment section where i actually see relatable comments instead of can we appreciate how lets just take a moment to appreciate i love how so and so dedicates to KZbin i just want to appreciate and i love it this is a good comment section

[@katherinereed]

I'm basing most of my information off of the first two seasons as I've been hit-and-miss on seeing episodes from seasons 3 and 4. For me, the issue is that the show waited until the end of season 1 to reveal that there was a series wide plot. While it was cool seeing the heroes as heroes without the backstory, it became an issue when the story had to span over 5 seasons. A lot could have been fixed by having Marinette's class be in the French equivalent to high school rather than middle school, or at least establishing and continuing other relationships for a time. By starting with Marinette and Adrien in relationships (or at least Marinette), the writers could work toward having Marinette and Adrien get together later rather than having both have crushes from the start. While there are problems with Marinette's behavior, I think those are not as much of an issue with Marinette's character as it is with the plot needing Marinette somewhere so that the story can happen. We don't see Marinette focusing on Adrien in every episode the same way that Chat Noir flirts with Ladybug. With Adrien, we consistently see how he flirts with Ladybug as Chat Noir. Ladybug doesn't like it at first, but then beings to accept it. I'm not sure that I think she's trying to encourage him, but I do think that she has gotten tired of telling him no unless he goes too far. After all, they have been partners for a few years and seem to fight akumas at least once a week, so she would get used to it while he keeps ignoring her telling him to stop. Personally, I think that Chat Noir's behavior at the start of Season 4 is more problematic than Marinette's as I feel like it was mishandled. Marinette's crush becomes what it needs to be to serve the plot rather than seeming to stem from her as a character, so I think if Lukanette (and maybe Adrigami) was given more time, then Marinette could have seen how bad she had been. However, I have a harder time seeing Chat Noir changing his behavior as he still goes after Ladybug when it seems to have only been a short time since Miracle Queen, so it is hard to believe that Ladybug has really been ignore Chat like he thinks she is. I find that I have more issues with trying to adjust Chat Noir so that he becomes less flirty with time than I do with adjusting Marinette's stalker tendencies. I would say that a lot of episodes would probably need to be rewritten, but a lot of them come down to one scene being the issue, and the episodes are contained enough that it doesn't have to derail the whole story. For example, the first time with Gigantian doesn't need to happen because Marinette and friends are trying a riciulous scheme to get Marinette time with Adrien, instead, we can have Gorilla getting frustrated with being stuck in traffic due to construction, or something else, so long as the intended Akuma disappears when Agustus is in place. This only requires the reworking of one episode rather than 6-12 episode so that Chat Noir slowly becomes less flirty as an abrupt change with no reason would be confusing to the audience. For me, it comes down to Marinette's behavior being more inconsistent and plot driven while Chat Noir's behavior is tied to his character. Plus it does seem like Marinette's get addressed more by fans than Chat Noir's does. Plus Marinette generally fails in the end (even if she isn't called out) while Chat Noir seems to succeed with getting Ladybug to like him (with only Ladybug calling him out).

[@hunterrousseau3770]

Oh trust me Marinette isn't the only simp here I mean c'mon we've all seen Adrien's photos of her as Ladybug on his phone, computer PC, and even hidden inside his trophy so it kinda balances it out

[@lasercraft32]

I think the flirting is in part caused by the cat miraculous. When Marinette uses the cat miraculous to become Lady Noir, she also seemingly can't resist making flirty comments. When Rina Rouge first shows up, Cat Noir also flirts with her. Heck, even Plagg is somewhat flirty around Tikki. Now, I don't think its ONLY the cat miraculous causing it (obviously not) but rather Adrien's feelings for Ladybug magnify those urges to flirt a lot, leading him to nag a lot more than he would otherwise.

[@noblepotato2319]

an obsessive stalker and an aggressive flirt who can’t take no fit an answer, perfect match!

[@noblepotato2319]

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