So, I tried Age of Mythology Retold Beta!

So, I tried Age of Mythology Retold Beta! (Game played on 12-July-2024)
Merch: grubby-shop.fo...
Commentary channel: / @grubbytalks
Would love for you to join me at the daily live stream: / grubby
#AoM #AgeOfMythology #Retold #Beta

[@milosmarinkovic2853]

Now the circle is complete. All the RTS titans got the polish and renewal they deserve. Oh wait I forgot one is missing that got butchered (Wc3) . Thank you Activision!

[@user-ct2dj4bg6s]

Did you mean Microsoft?

[@tudorserban111]

@@user-ct2dj4bg6s Microsoft only acquired Activision last year.

[@MechShark]

@@user-ct2dj4bg6s uhh. MS bought Activision in 2022, well after Reforged

[@MALEMization]

@@MechShark This is correct! This is ALL Activision's fault since Microsoft didn't buy Blizzard yet at that time! If Microsoft had Warcraft 3, this would never have happened! The Remake would be of the same value as AOE2's Remake or even AOM's!

[@raptorhacker599]

whats wc3?

[@vinneasverran831]

Lol at him not noticing she is telling him how to attack move when he is trying to figure out how to attack move.

[@tribalbeat6471]

You are misunderstanding the Attack Moves at 25:45. Aggressive stance means that units will chase enemy units. Defensive stance means units will chase enemy units only a bit. Hold ground means units will not chase enemy units. These are totally separate behaviors from Attack Move. Attack move behaves exactly like in Starcraft or in Warcraft 3, the only difference is that you toggle it by pressing SPACE+clicking instead of A+clicking. The reason your units are getting stuck at 26:30 is because the fog is blocking the road until you kill the manticore.

[@ikosaeder3625]

Or use Alt + right click for attack move, just right click for regular move.

[@BlunderBuns]

Right click is not attack move, space + right click is. You are overthinking it. The control scheme is not complicated. You need to give it time and you'll see its actually very intuitive.

[@goink3368]

Yeah Grubby got all confused over nothing. He’s played Dota which has pretty much the same controls

[@gongal]

He struggles with everything that isn't WC3

[@jahrazzjahrazz8858]

Space+Left click works just fine as well. Just when you press Space, the text that you can now press right click to attackmove tells you how to "confirm" the attackmove

[@ikosaeder3625]

Alt + right click is *attack move,* simple and useful. Always has been in AoM, I'm glad they kept it. Yes there is also space by default (or whatever you want to bind) to enter *attack mode,* so you an activate it with next mouse click. Why make your life more complicated?

[@simonkapadia7582]

Honestly I rebound three or four keys and then it was fine, undeniably it feels a bit counterintuitive to have space as a-move, but I wouldn't regard rebinding a key as a deal breaker in and of itself. Construction is a grid layout, same as AoE4, and not how AoM worked. Control groups are standard. It's all reasonably normal.

[@ikosaeder3625]

You can also use Alt + right click for attack move. Spread the word!

[@dynastes4938]

The best RTS of all time is finally getting the treatment it deserves. I really hope you'll cover it more in the future, Grubby :)

[@lioneddy]

The best from the series is Rise of Nations ;)

[@raptorhacker599]

@@lioneddy rise of legends

[@klavicus2276]

@@raptorhacker599 Rise of nations but especially rise of legends could need a similar remaster/remake treatment. Rise of legends had so cool units and thematics…

[@ArawnOfAnnwn]

@@klavicus2276 Let's not forget Empire Earth, another game where you can play through ALL of history! :)

[@EB-bl6cc]

"The best RTS of all time"? Brood War: "..am i a joke to you?"

[@SuperPhoenixFrog]

It's actually in the same engine. The engine created for AoM was the engine used when they made AoE3, Retold is updated to use what what's in AoE3/DE

[@raquetdude]

he still needs to try out AoE3, as thats the most similar to Warcraft

[@EB-bl6cc]

yeah a lot of wrong information in this video. But it's ok we still

[@goink3368]

I’ve been looking forward to this I’ve played this game for 20 years, imagine my reaction when I realized that Retold is not available in my region

[@jorge15266]

Just pirate it.

[@goink3368]

@@jorge15266haven’t found it online yet. Probably will once it’s out

[@zedopikao]

@@jorge15266 no multiplayer tho

[@ArawnOfAnnwn]

Damn, what region are you from dude?

[@goink3368]

@@ArawnOfAnnwn Russia

[@ShiroAisu10]

I can't believe Grubby got filtered by attack move. It's especially bizarre that he thought the stances had anything to do with attack moving, since stances aren't particularly rare in RTS, and he played both AOE2 for a while and AOE4 for quite some time, both of which have stances. It's even more wild that no one in chat corrected him.

[@BlunderBuns]

Grubby is RTS God, he cannot be corrected. If you try to correct him the chat will punish you

[@gall217]

30:48 Hydra front flip

[@FripFrops88]

I hate that they renamed the Ulfsark to Berserk...

[@eachristos8736]

Why tho

[@Jombozeus]

Ulfsark means man wearing wolf skin, Berserk means man wearing bear skin. So Berserk is correct.

[@consonaadversapars]

@@Jombozeus They wore bear skins in the original?

[@Jombozeus]

@@consonaadversapars exactly so this is a name correction

[@DarkMSG]

Berserk is the correct term for this they wear bear skin not wolf

[@MrGaleanon]

Welcome to the family!

[@cubandarknez]

Hope grubby gives this another try down the line, this game has such great flavor! I think the default keybindings are really subpar, but only took me like 15 minutes to set up the things I needed to get started, and since the hotkeys have a search function I could find the other things I needed to change after a few skirmish games. I do think the QoL is nowhere near the current standard for RTS (likely as a result of the engine), and there are clear implementation issues with pathing jankiness and units getting stuck. However, as a fan of the setting it is still tons of fun for me, and it lends itself to some of the most enjoyable team matches with distinct civilizations, and kick ass myth units + god powers. If they actually get villager automation to work properly, this will be a great casual RTS to enjoy 3v3 / 4v4 on for years to come.

[@ikosaeder3625]

Interesting, can you give some QoL that the game lacks? I am used to the original game and the beta had waaaaay more features already. Now I'm astonished by what else I might miss without knowing.

[@cubandarknez]

@@ikosaeder3625 There's a few things that show the age of the engine in terms of how smart the unit AI can be, and then there are some limitations on hotkey customization. It's nothing major, just small things that have improved over the years, primarily through SC2's contributions, but also a few other titles. Personally for me one of the more annoying things is the units slowing down so much for the slowest unit in the group, wish there was a setting to turn that off or a stance that ignored that.

[@ikosaeder3625]

@@cubandarknez Thanks, I get your points. I had really high hopes for the new AI, now I am kind of dashed. The hotkeys are fine imo, you can still create a user.con for custom hotkeys - though the default bindings *force* you to do something about them, really bad UX. I think they used the AoE3DE engine instead of AoE4 because the latter would no longer support most of the physics and mechanics of AoM. An act from necessity, so to speak. Better this way around than losing all resemblance with the OG. Hm, I actually prefer to be slowed down to the speed of the slowest unit. And I like that when one unit is attacked in melee, the whole formation gets slowed down slightly. Forces more micro to split your army. But it's a really peculiar mechanic.

[@Joek9100]

Why is the ulfsark now called berserk?

[@FloosWorld_AoE]

Different fur

[@wilboehmer5620]

Just a note. Pretty sure they used the Aoe 3 DE engine not the Aoe 3 engine

[@Adribird]

A lot of misinformation in this video for not being attentive. I hope your impression will change when you play it again.

[@AndreyGP]

Hotkeys with norse are very weird, militar units can build, so you have 2 different menus, the militar positions and the build one, and "A" changes between them. Also villagers can turn into berserks and "A" transforms them, so you have to change those 2 hotkeys before changing Attack move from space (default) to A. Then everything will work alright.

[@RancorSnp]

The Norse are honestly the biggest victims of lack of the build button. I've complained a couple times already how badly this affects Norse micro. Sure hope it gets fixed. There's 0 benefit to not having the build button. If I have to make one extra press to build something, chances are my build order will hit the exact same timing. But if I have to do an extra button press to issue combat commands - well now I may have just lost the game

[@AndreyGP]

@@RancorSnp Yeah, I would very much prefer if it was the other way around, but for now we have to try and work with what we have, kinda annoying.

[@skellumfh]

The artist creating your thumbnails is doing a great job.

[@tehstrongbad]

You can build dwarves to mine for you...I'm sold already.

[@FloosWorld_AoE]

Technically, AoM Retold is still in the same engine! :) The BANG! engine as it's called was originally written for AoM. They now just reenabled the Myth related features for Retold using the most recent version of BANG, which is AoE 3 DE.

[@Tirishhai]

I just love the unit audio in this game :D for 20 years some of the lines come to my mind from time to time :D

[@misterpanini8169]

One day empire earth and the battle for middle earth will have their time to rise

[@NoName-ex9db]

Maybe we'll see Rise of nation one day !

[@AnUtterMesh]

Gonna be weird with the new voice actors for people who recall the old stuff.

[@tzoanast1061]

Well the va for units is the same. We'll see about the campaign.

[@St1TcHinGMonk3y101]

Eh, AOE2 DE did the same thing and the game turned out amazing - they probably didn't have the rights to use the voice actors anymore 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@AnUtterMesh]

@St1TcHinGMonk3y101 Weird that the tutorial had the old one. Just wondering if it's the modern notion of making sure it's culturally appropriate. In which case I would have rather it be in Greek with subtitles like Grubby suggested. Mispronounced English VA with accents isn't appropriate imo

[@Mene0]

Prostagma?

[@klavicus2276]

@@tzoanast1061 Not all but most of them.

[@Mene0]

I hope this does well

[@connormako1987]

I know this isn’t your game but please please please do an old vs new graphical comparison video like the one you did on reforged recently. You are very articulate on that stuff.

[@HighLanderPonyYT]

Agreed, the UI/UX and QoL puts me off this game.

[@AnUtterMesh]

Hope this is good. Have multiple play throughs of the original and it was just a lovely story with a solid rts behind it

[@queldron]

3 Greek Gods, 3 Egyptian Gods, 3 Norse Gods and 3 more Greek Gods xD

[@ArawnOfAnnwn]

And later 3 Chinese gods and probably 3 Aztec gods (two expansions have been confirmed).

[@peterkirby7546]

I try to mentally justify it by imagining the Atlanteans as pseudo-Minoans, but yeah, in the end it is inarguably just more greeks. Sounds like they have new ones planned too now at least. They confirmed they are redoing China, and also hinted at an as yet unannounced one...

[@SolitaryLark]

3 Greek titans

[@royasturias1784]

@@ArawnOfAnnwn ​The devs are strict about the NDA concerning the 6th (but not the last) distinct culture to be welcome additions in Re-Told. Could also be Celts, Slavs, Japanese (strictly Shinto and lots of yokai), Hindu and Filipino (before the visitation of Fernão de Magalhães and his crew) as candidate cultures

[@ashiinsane90]

If you are referring to Atlantis, its more of an Egyptian than Greek.

[@DravenphilupDoom]

Bro trolled... there is an attack move...

[@M.Albury242]

Oh man, the BGM and game sounds...instant memory flashback!

[@2Siders]

17:53 Don't talk to me or my son ever again VIBES

[@straygoat4366]

This was my favorite RTS. I am stoked. Thanks for showing us.

[@levenundag9723]

Grubby still learning AOM the retold is good ❤

[@KeeNGaming]

gast, ik heb nog nooit zoveel moeite gezien over een paar hotkeys lol.

[@BlunderBuns]

If a top tier rts god like grubby cannot understand the hotkeys then no one can, for he cannot be wrong or mistaken since he is an rts god

[@KeeNGaming]

@@BlunderBuns idk wc3 is like duplos, aoe games are legos.

[@generalsdragons6952]

Of all the old school RTS's Age of Mythology was my favorite and the one I played the most. I META gamed it before I knew what META gaming was, I can still remember every stat and upgrade stat of every unit.

[@marsh3674]

played this game since i was 7. My friend and I at age 20 would still go back and play. We had so much fun and always wished they would recreate it. Everyone is hypercritical and shitting on the game in the chat, mostly people who don't play it offering up their educated opinions on what they expect the game should look like. As someone who loves and enjoys the game, i am beyond pleased. In fact, this may be the most excited ive been for a videogame since i was a kid.

[@SolitaryLark]

16:30 pretty sure the voice acting isn’t done. This seems like devs voicing.

[@Trebonianus0815]

i sincerely hope so

[@liberatesweden2404]

"Thanos with less self control"? Dude unalived half of humanity. Wonder what this guy will do.

[@wroughtp1002]

You just need to get couple of games and understand bit by bit. My first 3 norse skirmish were awfull (played OG game) becaus of the new UI, unit changes (ox cart was recruited from settlement in OG but now your gatherers do that instead and etc.). But ones I played around each civ and underdtood more I have a blast in this beta. Main complain is campaign VA and some UI decisions. I recommend Greek or Egypt first becaus the norse is soo much different.

[@boing5106]

I have seen other youtubers do review or play matches and their game looked preety smooth and good but yours look preety different idk if its me or what but yeah i only noticed those cartoony graphics in this vid.

[@peterkirby7546]

I remember when I started trying WC3 after being an AoE2 player, I had to spend an hour changing all the building and ability hotkeys to a 'q,w,e,r,t/a,s,d,f,g... etc' grid 😂 (Btw, I think I heard a comment in another video/interview that Grubby might check this out with Viper of AoE2 fame - I think that it would definitely be a lot of fun to see that, whatever happens in the long run :)) .) (Final edit: I hope the bad audio balancing that was commented on will get fixed post-beta.)

[@FlintLostsoul]

YES! I hoped you’d get into this soon :)

[@helmofgod]

prostagma

[@nadantagaming2276]

The game looks amazing! Love the changes they've made from the original!

[@makatooreal]

AoM the GOAT of RTS' imo

[@ItsYoot]

this game and the campaign got me hooked on mythology as a kid

[@dwrety]

I played this game so many times when I was in middle school.

[@anubis483]

Voice actors are employed on a contract for a particular product. I imagine they were not allowed to use the same voices for the new game unless they got permission. So, i am sure they asked the voice actors from the originale. I am surprised people make this out to be so simple. Why they changed voice and raging and so on? like.. It is not that simple.

[@F10F11hm]

I don't know what happened, but the RTS genre used to be so great, with many unique franchises - from fantasty to scifi, filled to the brim with creativity. Nowadays, it's so creatively bankrupt and bland.. Truly, late 90s-early 2000s was a lighting in a bottle kind of period in gaming in many ways.

[@elvis2nd2none36]

Big fan here grubby. Sorry but you're simply too lazy and completely biased by wc3 controls... AomR definitely needs tuning but it is far from the level of bad controls you're trying to transmit here...

[@nikr.5344]

Texture quality set to "medium"... 😭 Well, does it make a noticable difference?

[@ikosaeder3625]

Depends on how far you zoom in. Not when you are zoomed out more than half of the possible scale.

[@DPSAX95]

looks great. As a greek what I find very weird is that the cinematics have English with Greek accents but the ingame unit voices have mostly english accents that really dont sound like greek.

[@kevinalexander9678]

I love watching you play this Thanks Grubby

[@Crosmando]

Norse are the nomadic civ (bit like Night Elves) thus the ox carts and basic infantry being able to build.

[@anubis483]

Graphics are horrible in Aoe4. Happy about this.

[@EdGarciaDiceYT]

Prostagma? 🗣️

[@ace100hyper3]

They have accents now

[@mrmistmonster]

Mr. Microsoft, the people, they yearn for a good WC3 remake, please.

[@CocolandiaYT]

Grubby you gotta try out 0AD! I'm very curious about your opinion on that game

[@raptorhacker599]

probably already has

[@alexandrup8199]

From my point of view voice acting of the story part is waaaaaaay weaker than the original ones ... :( in the original game they had more ....i don't know how to call the word ... more soul / more spirit .... for me the new voices will be a big down but i still got the game

[@ZMSTA]

19:45 Yeah, if you're going to get subpar voice actors with Greek accent, either get someone that can voice act in Greek or go fully English but with proper voice acting. I am gonna guess most people that dont have the nostalgia factor (99.99% of those that played the game) would agree about the voice acting being worse in retold. Also they fucked up the pronunciation of prostagma hard the Accent (or stress) should be on pro and not on stag as arkantos says it while in game. Makes me cringe each time i hear it.

[@YeenMage]

The God Selection arts are mostly awful. They look like AI-generated even. The old ones have more soul in them as well.

[@MisterDragon]

Watch some high level AoM grubby. There's actually a grassroots competitive scene where people show there's a fair bit of skill ceiling.

[@PlanetaJuegosPC]

I think attack move in AOE3 was hold control + right click

[@Buttersman]

I was hoping for a big upgrade on the UI and controls of the game. It really looks about the same 😅

[@chrisdaignault9845]

Ancient languages only in cutscenes would get old fast. Easier to localize, I guess. You say it’d be more immersive, but would Arkantos really speak to Amanra in Ancient Greek, while she replies to him in ancient Egyptian (or Nubian for that matter)? Makes no sense.

[@royasturias1784]

not ancient Egyptian, but the closest living relative Coptic

[@karmos_]

Retold looks good. Voice acting is worse. Solid overall from what Grubby showed.

[@perseval]

Звуки и музыка остались оригинальные) Ну че пацаны: ПРОСТАГМА?)

[@nfwlpw]

Anyone remember a game called Kohan?

[@Ducky-vl7mp]

Now I understand that hotkeys are the bread and butter of every serious rts player but whats so different betwen this and say SC2 that it bars certain players from playing it based solely on hotkeys alone? I watched Winter on his stream and he had such a problem with hotkeys that he gave up on Norse entirely based on a single attack move hotkey. Someone explain

[@MultiReptilian]

High level rts are played at 400+APM, if the keys suck and cannot be changed it feels terrible to play

[@Ducky-vl7mp]

@@MultiReptilian But keys can be changed and you can't expect two different games to have same exact layouts beyond basic commands. Most of these pros drilled the same game into their minds for 10+ years and when they try something different they simply can't or don't wish to adjust. They get hung up on tiny differences and write off the entire thing. They also jump into the game without actually looking at anything and expect the hotkeys to be exact same as in their prefered rts. I genuenly want to know if I'm missing something here or if it's just people who don't care about these games and simply play them once or twice for views and then go back to their rts of choice.

[@LucidEquinox]

​@@Ducky-vl7mpfrom what I could understand. It seems by default right click is to attack move. Which is usually just the move button in most rts games. This means if you try to move units away from people they will stop and attack units behind them

[@MultiReptilian]

@@Ducky-vl7mp it is different, keys can be changed but the way4 the command tree works is fundamentally different, that was a problem on the original AOM that blizzard RTS do not have

[@P4nem___Et___C1rcenses]

@@MultiReptilian True but AoM was never a game that needs 400 APM. It was more about tactical decisions and such and quite chill to play, even at a high level (I was there).

[@Bagginsess]

Better have Laser Bears, Flying Purple Hippos, Fork Boys, Dogs, and BAWK BAWK BOOM or I will cry 😢

[@danpower7416]

For BAWK BAWK BOOM I'm not sure but in another video there were at least the laser bears, the hippo (which now has long blonde hair xD), the fork boy and the dog (which I didn't know of until then tbh^^).

[@Bagginsess]

@@danpower7416 wait they replaced the hippos top hat with blonde hair? btw thanks

[@Repwnzle]

Missing this

[@AurelianoShowsTheWorld]

thx for the vid

[@diego2817]

Sc2 and war3 are super mega overrated... Sorry

[@royasturias1784]

Blame those Blizzard game glazers

[@Followtheham]

Love everything about this, but the sound and voices are not the same, which is sad... :(

[@djohawkeyes4776]

its comming out in september !

[@ninahagds8654]

Wtf were they thinking when they changed the voice acting? The new ones sound ridiculous and unemotional especially at the campaigns..

[@johnfredriksson9565]

the art for the gods is very AI like. very disapointing.

[@svenkuechler1930]

try to play one time the aoe 3 DE grubby, is very different to other AOE games from the saga

[@TheMekansm]

If you want to learn how to play just start with the campaing. Trust me

[@rockinneal91]

Grubby and whining, nothing changes lmao Stay away from trying new games if you will just try and whine and try to ruin the games for actual people who like em.

[@mobpsycho6658]

Love this game

[@MrDaftFunk]

Why does Atlantis look like Mindanao?

[@royasturias1784]

Because Herodotus's interpretation of the lost island nation was too milquetoast for Ensemble Studios. Rumour has it that the island might have been the resting place of the Bakunawa (Filipino version of the Jormungandr).

[@andreicristian9575]

You almost made me not buy the game by playing it on the wrong resolution. I thought it looked like crap and was actually thinking I've been lied to by MS.

[@vapecat1982]

New voices suck hard, no emotions in Arkantos voice like it used to be

[@bartenev_vitaly]

Its cool game!!!

[@TagaBearClaw]

ggs

[@gastondelacaze4863]

I have to admit... graphicallly it looks the same as OG AoM... what the hell...

[@Sonlokill]

why woman Ulfsark

[@royasturias1784]

Because female Gatherer upgraded to male basic warrior instantly had been baffling in the OG 2002 game release The devs are more prepared now.

[@FloosWorld_AoE]

@@royasturias1784 Yep. Same reason they added female vills to AoE 1 with the RoR DLC

[@SuperKingNNN]

Nostalgia!!

[@AkshayPrasadrocks]

I dont know if AoM fans like it, but to me the voicelines repeating literally every click is extremely annoying

[@Ge_n_Ge]

Man the graphics looks terrible

[@TheOneWhoServes]

game looks literally the same with some graphics bump.... I dont get it anymore

[@paradachshund]

It's so funny to me about the voice acting. I have no nostalgia for the old voices and the new accurate accents are MUCH better to my ear. I think people have some rose-colored glasses going on for the old ones. 🤷

[@vexienroe]

the old ones have gravitas and breathiness which leads to myths and legends, the new ones just sound like a greek dude telling me how to play the game, its fine, but it is immersion breaking.

[@raptorhacker599]

its not about accents

[@peterkirby7546]

​​@@vexienroeYep, gravitas sums it up best. New Athena sounds like just another average person that has bumped into Arkantos socially... . Having said that, it is maybe better that they didnt try for the more powerful 'gravitas' with the new VA; I've seen a few projects recently where a new actor tries to replicate the tone of an older performance, and it rarely matches up. Not everyone can pull it off. Shame they couldn't just keep the original voices really.

[@ikosaeder3625]

So you are saying that Athena, one of the 12 most powerful gods of the Greek pantheon (arguably even the strongest and wisest of them all), should sound like an everyday young woman? And not like a mysterious power beyond human comprehension?

[@ikosaeder3625]

What I mean with "should sound like a mysterious power beyond human comprehension" is exactly that... No matter your opinion about the old voice acting, the new one is *not* a step in the right direction. At least they didn't cast some trendy influencers, so yay?

[@Wolsfen]

Let's goooooooooooooooooooo. I'm first ! 😅

[@gambit_elstar]

Don't become a last one)

[@Wolsfen]

@@gambit_elstar 😂

[@Cayarl]

The new voiceacting and artwork is extremely bland im so disappointed in it the original had soul this one feels like an aii-generated cashgrab

[@Yasir.alsaidi]

This looks so outdated 😮

[@Hdtk2024]

I dont like the AI art. Lets hope the game is good anyway.

[@Fantasygod930]

Wait the art they use is AI? I need some evidence to confirm or deny

[@TheTeaGrinder]

@@Fantasygod930 Well at least it looks like it anyway

[@BlunderBuns]

I think he’s talking about the god portraits, not the unit models or anything like that. There was some controversy about the god portraits when they revealed Bast’s portrait a while back. Some of them do have that AI feel

[@klavicus2276]

@@BlunderBuns there are surely some great ones and solid ones like Loki, hades, isis and so on but especially regarding some minor gods the quality really differ in my opinion. Some are really good like Freya, Athena and some are not good and feel more AI … I wish they would listen to feedback here more… (also why does Ares look still so old wtf xD)

[@nadantagaming2276]

@@Fantasygod930 Believe the internetz!

[@sgredsch]

theres a soft spot for age of mythology in my heart, but why is microsoft not able to do another age of empires game that can touch AOE2 definitive? the graphics of AOM retold are certainly better than the original, but why stop at 50%? this could have been alot better - im not hating it, but it could have been truly epic instead of acceptable. its not like AOM had so great controls or control mechanics back in the day that needed to be preserved - its one of the first 3D RTS and it was kinda bad in this regard. wc3 is 10x better. whats worth preserving is the mythic units and the cool stuff. on the flip side - AOE4 doesnt look any better, so maybe this is it. thats the limit.

[@ikosaeder3625]

You really can't compare a isometric game like AoE2 with a 3D perspective. Those look like two different worlds. I share your opinion that any 3D just doesn't feel as good as isometric. So yeah, that's the limit.