Social Mechanics!

The second in a series of videos discussing my upcoming RPG, "The Broken Empires", launching on Kickstarter October 1st. Today, I talk about the seamless blending of roleplay and mechanics in Social Encounters!
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Special thanks to James Arnold Taylor and Gabor Vida

[@nagaenigma]

This is hands down the most well-designed rules for social interactions I’ve ever seen.

[@MagnificentDevil]

This is the first time I've thought that social mechanics can actually enhance the roleplaying, rather than undermine it. I can't wait to try it.

[@MeMyselfandDieRPG]

It's kind of a game-changer (literally) ;)

[@JReilly9945]

An inspiring speech doesn't have to be "we can do it guys", a light in the darkness kinda thing. It can be just saying what failure means plainly. A reminder of stakes.

[@MeMyselfandDieRPG]

And that would be a call a GM can make.

[@edtcrandall]

I love your thinking on this - I have wanted to add effective "non-combat" rolls into my games for years, and have been struggling to state clearly what I mean. You are stating this clearly.

[@sebastienparadis9115]

I completely agree, a player that actually a chemist couldn't make his "fighter" build canons and explosive just because the player knows how to. The same apply to my character that would actually have less combat knowledge than I have as a martial arts teacher. So far I really like how your game is evolving. I had plenty of things that were rubbing me the wrong way at first that have mostly been taken care of. Bringing me to the idea that we look forward to a similar game experience.

[@LoneHorizons]

This sounds great. It means a group could have one or more players who don’t enjoy combat but love roleplaying and get to use the social mechanics as the party’s social specialist, and they’d get to advance their character by doing it.

[@MrYac-ie8ie]

this sounds like a really fun way to run social interactions, i love the idea of the character being weighed into the action by how they are played rather than just straight rolling.

[@DeadMarsh]

The more of a marriage there is between mechanics and roleplay…the better! I Love councils in the one ring. I’m SO glad you’re putting in social mechanics. It will be wonderful for groups AND solo players. I really like these videos focused on “arenas of conflict”. I get the feeling that layout for this system is going to be great for a semi simulationist game.

[@Stephen-Fox]

Fully agree with the fundamental underlying philosophy you seem to have behind this, and very glad to see formal systemic support for that philosophy. I don't care if Susan can convince me, the GM, to let her pass through the sacred grove as we would discover if we were to freeform the encounter. I want to know if Merellien, can convince the guard. Which is what the dice will tell us. Any more than I care if Bob can shoot a target from 100 feet with a bow. I care if Erimoud can shoot a giant hornet with a bow. Obviously I adjust my style of running when I'm playing a system that's opposing that style, but when a system gives me the option to run social stuff that way? I do.

[@sanjeevshah168]

I love how this game is looking. Very impressed Trevor!

[@TomTrustworthy]

Good topic for a video. I'm sure the book will cover this (as you've quoted some of it) but having this video as a reference as well will only help us out!

[@LD-gc4qg]

Love your thought process on this!

[@messenger3478]

I love this! It is sooo inspiring! I want to adopt these ideas into the game I am making, and my house rules for old school d&d!😃

[@Gidizz]

I love the language you use in the book, if to judge by what you read out loud. I can't wait for October 1st to back this system!

[@sebastienparadis9115]

I remember those times where I had to roll because of what I just said... In a TORG game I played I was attacked by priest with guns in place of a right arm. I looked at the leader and asked him : "Wow! did your mom get !@#$%@#$ by a tank?!?" and the GM went : Ok roll for taunt... I almost made a glorious roll on that one, rolling well above 50 on a D20 (it's an explosive D20 system)

[@philmitchell12]

This is excellent GM advice - essentially PC actions are required to trigger the roll. Looking forward to seeing the mechanics themselves. What you’ve described could be applied to 5e social mechanics. It’s also hard coded into all PbtA systems. Sounds like you will have a fantastic GM advice section - rules are rules are rules - the use of those rules is what makes the game.

[@FilCieplak]

The system, as I think you’ve mentioned, appears to take elements from the Council rules from TOR. Which I do thinks adds that little bit of needed rules to important social encounters. Speaking of TOR, I recall you’ve changed the names of certain skills throughout development, and have landed on Protocol as one of them, but have you considered Courtesy (taken from TOR) as a possibility? I feel Protocol sounds kinda sci-fi to me, but that’s just me. Cheers!

[@MeMyselfandDieRPG]

Yes, ToR was a big influence, as I’ve said elsewhere. As for Courtesy, I feel it’s too specific to what ToR was evoking, compared to what I want the skill to be about. But nomenclature is always evolving, so we’ll see.

[@jasonGamesMaster]

I think Etiquette could also be a good fit, but it's all good either way, lol

[@sanjeevshah168]

Duel of Wits!

[@waltdog123]

A lot of inspiration from the Burning Wheel

[@beowulf.reborn]

I love Social systems where the Roleplay triggers the Skill used, however I also like to reward the Roleplay through mechanics like Advantage. An example would be: Player doesn't even bother to put in effort, or says/does something outrageous given the context = Disadvantage. The Player puts in effort to Roleplay their Character = Straight Roll. The Player comes up with something clever, or witty, or is extra menacing, etc. = Advantage. I know some people don't like that, because they feel it rewards/punishes Player Skill rather than Character skill, but for me, a Roleplaying Game is all about that merger/fusion of me and my Character... also, we already reward/punish Characters based on Player knowledge and skill in virtually every other area of the game, so why not in the one area that really gets to the heart of what it means to Roleplay?

[@MeMyselfandDieRPG]

A Broken Empires GM always has the ability to award a +20/-20 bonus to any roll based on the given circumstances. There's nothing stopping you from doing just that to reflect your interpretation of the situation :)

[@vincentdurocher9699]

This makes me think of the Song of Ice and Fire RPG. In that game, Intrigue is basically verbal combat.

[@MeMyselfandDieRPG]

Hopefully my social rules are somewhat more intuitive. From what I remember, that system was a little hard to use. It's been a long time since I've looked at it, though.

[@vincentdurocher9699]

@@MeMyselfandDieRPG well, yes. But like everything, you get used to it after a while.

[@MeMyselfandDieRPG]

Indeed!

[@joespizza11b42]

As a player in a TOR2E game I sometimes find myself frustrated in councils because my character does not have the skills to support what I want to say, but of our 4 players I am (in my opinion) one of 2 players that are skilled at/enjoy role playing (speaking in first person, using descriptive language, etc.) I feel like if I don't contribute it becomes more like a series of rolls, and less like a scene. Still love the game, and looking forward to this one, just an observation

[@MeMyselfandDieRPG]

The system I’ve designed (and the one in ToR) is not for every type of gamer, that’s true. If you’ve made a character that hamstrings your own personal abilities, you can always develop your skills in another direction. But there are always ways to participate. (Standing back from the proceedings and rolling Insight to help your comrades is one option).

[@Matt_Volk]

I'm a GM who has been against charisma and rolling for social checks for a long time... But I've come to accept it as an incorrigible 😂 part of gaming culture so long as I can hold to a few concessions. First, just as the players would never be expected to succumb to a persuasion check, I reserve the right for certain NPCs to be immune to social checks. This is especially for villains, rivals, or other major personalities that I, as the GM, have taken time to flesh out and therefore know how they would react sans a roll to intimidate. Second, I tell my players that the more they roll during social encounters the less motivation I have to bring those NPCs to life. So, if you're going to barter with the shopkeeper using dice, we'll just run that out of character... No need to do the funny voices etc.

[@MrJHDK]

Enjoy the ethos and looking forward to the GM section. From watching Legacy, I have a nebulous question. In Legacy, you have used a characteristic matrix inspired by Pendragon for Veil. Is this a tool you are using in Legacy as an aid(like mythic) or will this be developed as a part of Broken Empires. And if so, is there a feedback (or enhancement or stacking etc) between characteristics and skills? Or would they be specifically separate for their own purposes.

[@MeMyselfandDieRPG]

The Personality rules are part of the core, but optional: you can get rewarded for using them, but suffer no penalty if you don't. They are only a player aid to help roleplay according to what the character would do. Once per personality Trait pairing per session, if you choose to roll the trait and be bound by its outcome, you can get a +10 to the next roll that is affected by the personality trait. As I said, completely optional.

[@SaintSolo]

I guess i really need a group, lmao i dont think i can wait for the solo stuff

[@proxxyBean]

When it comes to the declare, dice, and describe phases of roleplaying, I've always considered the words coming out of my character's mouth to be the describe phase. It sounds like you are making them the declare phase. What do you do when a character is skilled in persuading makes an emotionally moving argument, but the dice disagree? Do you ignore the beautiful roleplaying or the dice result? You can incorporate the failed roll into the roleplay by waiting until after the dice are rolled to do the speaking. So, how would I combat thinking in terms of just the mechanics? The player would say what they want to accomplish without mentioning the skill name unless it's just the natural verb for the activity. "I want to appeal to his workethic" instead of "I want to roll a persuade." Then, the GM would say what skill to roll. Then, if the roll fails, we decide whether it was a failure on the character's part or something that didn't stir the NPC. Then, roleplay out the results.

[@MeMyselfandDieRPG]

We’re saying much the same thing as far as I can tell. The player RPs the moment, which triggers a specific skill decided by the GM (and often by the table as it’s quite often obvious), the dice are rolled, and the outcome of that roll determined and abided by (“the dice always tell the story”). “Beautiful roleplaying” determines the triggered skill, and is its own reward; that’s why we do this in the first place, isn’t it? :) And understand, these rolls aren’t binary: failing one roll doesn’t normally end the whole encounter. The goal is to accumulate many success levels before the tolerance is reached.

[@MagnificentDevil]

HOW do they appeal to his work ethic? If they say "I have always admired how hard you work" is persuasion, whereas "Just wait until your subjects hear of your laziness" is intimidation. It actually requires some degree of roleplaying in not just what qualities the opponent has, but how your character approaches that, and the skill with which they are able to make their appeal.

[@toucanadian]

Interesting comparison to Burning Wheel! I agree that the three-action volleys can be clunky at times but I can't help but love it anyway (though I much prefer the less complex Mouseguard version). BW does a lot of 'pause the narrative to do some meta heavy lifting then use that to resolve the story' in its chase to create memorable narrative and their conflict system is a great example. I don't think it was designed with the primary intent of being in-the-moment or reactionary. Looking forward to seeing how you've moulded that idea for your own!

[@MeMyselfandDieRPG]

I’m glad you love BW! I so desperately want to ;) Seriously, it’s kind of a miracle of design, even if it seems to work for me only on paper. Very inspirational nonetheless.

[@toucanadian]

@@MeMyselfandDieRPG If you ever get a chance, check out Mouseguard. It takes the BW core and makes it a lot less oppressively complicated and more game-y with its delineated GM and player turns. One of my favourites!

[@MeMyselfandDieRPG]

I have it :)

[@alderaancrumbs6260]

As an example, what’s to stop a mousy player who likes being gruff and intimidating from simply saying, “I intimidate them”? I like the ideas here and use them, I’m just looking for more detail.

[@MagnificentDevil]

Ask them how they intimidate them. They can describe it in 3rd person rather than speak in 1st person, but they should be able to explain what their character says in some fashion, even if it is descriptive.

[@MeMyselfandDieRPG]

Yup.

[@MeMyselfandDieRPG]

“How? What do you say?”

[@juliancoker368]

I feel the issue with this approach (which while more granular than 5E, is still replicating the fundamental structure of delineating social skills along lines of approach, I.e. wit vs intimidate vs inspire) is that it encourages players to ignore context and twist themselves to use their best skill as often as possible. You say context is critical, but to my ear, this system doesn’t account for context. Maybe Kelsey’s character acting intimidating in this moment IS a good idea, even if it normally wouldn’t be. But if she always has that 10% chance to succeed, that just means she should avoid it all the time, and always prioritize her good skills, thereby flattening the character. Do you have systems in place to avoid these problems and reward contextual awareness on a mechanical level?

[@MeMyselfandDieRPG]

Contextual awareness is about reading the situation, understanding what your PC is good at in that situation, and taking an appropriate action. No one is good at everything, and we play to our strengths to get what we want. That's human nature. That said, there are 9 social skills in the game. These are 9 fundamentally different approaches to dealing with NPCs. That's hardly a "flattening" of the character. Some skills just won't work in certain circumstances. There are elements in the system called Preferred and Disliked skills; these are approaches that work either better or worse with that particular NPC. If your best skill is Intimidate, and you try to twist the conversation in order to "spam" an encounter with Beorn (say), you will just outright fail (in his case, anyone even attempting that skill just outright fails, that's just who he is). If you used Inspire with Beorn, it might turn out to be his Preferred skill, and it would be easier to use on him. Certain targets will react differently to different approaches. Understand your own strengths, understand your target, take appropriate action. If Kelsey triggered the Intimidate skill through her roleplaying, and the character she was speaking to was particularly susceptible to Intimidate, then she'd get a big bonus. But if the player knows that their Intimidate skill is no good, the onus is on them to pick the better approach that the *character* is good at. And might I say, if you're playing this game with people who are "ignoring context" to spam "their best skill as often as possible"... I would recommend a different system. They're clearly not the intended audience. Luckily for them, there are innumerable games out there that will cater to their particular desires.

[@juliancoker368]

@@MeMyselfandDieRPG Good to know there are methods in the system to account for this! As you’ve said in other comments, I’m only responding to the vertical slice in this video. If you do a follow-up, I’d mention this Preferred and Disliked mechanic; it helps to differentiate this system from 5E and its ilk. As for the hypothetical I was posing above, that’s not based on personal experience (good players are helpful here), but if I’ve learned anything as a professional DM, not all players can be counted on to maintain such nuance. Some folks, if you give them a raw “best option” mechanically, that’s it for them! It’s good to know your system has mechanics to encourage these players to think in context and not behave like robots

[@MeMyselfandDieRPG]

Yes, that's the whole point - to encourage players to think *outside* their comfort zones, so they get a different (and hopefully deeper) experience.

[@ItWasSaucerShaped]

while systems can certainly influence this kind of behavior, i honestly think this is something the players themselves have to learn to let go of. getting comfortable with the idea that 'most optimal' is often (though not always) antithetical to good drama, and TTRPGs are blending both gameplay and drama. having things your character truly shines at is great for drama so they can have the spotlight in a scene, but that needs to be contrasted against things they are NOT good at to really pop (similar to how color works - a bright red or pink is much more striking when against a black background). it also what often leads to moments of just roaring comedy or utter amazement when someone is rolling a check for a skill they are bad at a game can address this to some extent, but really there is no amount of game design that will teach the player how much fun it can be to not min-max all of the time in all situations. that's something you have to discover on your own (imho)

[@ACGreviews]

Lets do this!

[@patricknilsson4360]

Leeeeerooooyyyy Jeeeeeeeeeenkiiins…

[@JamCliche]

You've said a lot about how social encounters should work - in your opinion - but not a whole lot about how your system accomplishes that. From what I am hearing, you have a set of social skills, and if the player roleplays to their character's strengths, they have a better chance of outcome. The higher the stakes, the more likely you are to choose the more complex system to adjudicate. Finally, as you said, it doesn't matter how good the player is at the roleplay, but how the tone of their statements triggers the system. The big thing you stressed is that this is still a game, not just an act of throwing dice. So... How is this different from other systems? Because if the only difference is which dice I roll and which modifiers I use, I don't see a difference. I get the distinct impression that I could accomplish everything you're talking about at any table with any set of game rules that have at least a handful of on-paper social skills. It just seems to me like you have an idea of how social conflicts should be resolved at your table, and you have misled yourself into thinking that your mechanics are uniquely executing on that idea when it's actually your DMing style.

[@MeMyselfandDieRPG]

That's... an interesting take. I've been using these social mechanics for over 10 years, and GMing in general for over 40. Pretty sure I'm not "misleading" myself. How is it different from other systems? For one thing, it *is* a system. Most games have historically avoided social systems entirely. You are also leaving out the details (which to be fair, you couldn't have known about purely from this teaser video): the goal is to gain as many SLs as you can before the Tolerance runs out. There are specific mechanics that govern that and maintain the tension. What can I say? You'll have to see it for yourself in the book. (Also, check out Season 4 of the main show on this channel; the protagonist engages in several social encounters which help explain how the system works.)

[@JamCliche]

​@@MeMyselfandDieRPG That's fair. I apologize for my offense language. I didn't mean to imply you're inexperienced, but instead point out the possibility that your specific style might be doing the heavy lifting in social encounters at your tables, regardless of the underlying mechanics. I've actually heard it said that to run a game well around a particular style of play, exclude that element from the number side of your system entirely, and I think there's merit to that. When I play stealth games, there are dozens of skills to perfect, but they all exist to support the stealth. There's no actual stealth skill, because it would be inherently deterministic. Achieve target number; succeed check. Removes the player's own skill from the equation. When you remarked that your player's own intimidating language wouldn't actually matter to the outcome, I grew concerned about your system. My biggest peave with social systems, when they exist, is that they often come down to one check. Depending on the system - like a D20 based one - this creates a very swingy outcome. I'd rather have NO social skills. But then, why am I coming to a video about making them crunchierm, with more than one check? Well, seeing your title made me insanely curious about it! Maybe you've cracked the code. I'm eager to see. But based on the above discussion regarding player skill vs character skill, your goals may be the opposite of mine, and I would be an unfair judge.

[@MeMyselfandDieRPG]

The player's intimidating language absolutely matters to the outcome - it *determines the skill to be rolled*. A swingy, binary social system sucks, we're in agreement there! "Roll Persuade to win the debate" and the like is mindless, unengaging pap. TBE's social system is absolutely NOT down to one check - it's about accumulating as many successes as you can before the NPC's unknown tolerance is breached. It's entirely about making the choice between going for more SLs, knowing that more SLs equal a better outcome, and taking the chance that your next social roll may be your last, as you go over the NPC's tolerance. The very purpose of this system is to meld player and character skill, but like everything else in our hobby, it will entirely depend on the tastes of the group. I never claimed to have cracked any code, nor would I. I'm only providing here what has worked so well for me over the many years of running games.

[@leonelegender]

Ok and how do we use this in practice, where's the actual guidelines of the system

[@MeMyselfandDieRPG]

Those details will be in the book, of course. In the meantime, you can see many aspects of it in action throughout various episodes of Season 4 here on the channel.

[@YannMiollan]

@leonlegender I think a good example of the social encounters is in MMD S4 Legacy Eps 5: "Allies and Enemies" , starting at 13:27, Veil is trying to ask for help to General Dahrion Bengarrah.

[@deaddrone]

What skills can be used in social encounters in BE?

[@MeMyselfandDieRPG]

There's 9 of them to give players a variety of tactics.

[@YannMiollan]

@@MeMyselfandDieRPG I think in season 4 we've seen (so far) deceive, persuade, inspire, intimidate, seduce, ... any other?

[@miketaylor8582]

I would like to talk to you if you have the time. I am the Ambassador for the upcoming film/documentary "50 Years of Fantasy" the 50th anniversary of D&D and looking for Creators and Influencers in our community.

[@Kiroana]

The system seems fun, but I'd be very limited on what characters I can play as when not playing via text, lol. I'm very quiet in real life, not great at coming off as intimidating when I want to, nor am I good at sounding persuasive when I want to - chances are high that, were I to open my mouth, assuming the other players even heard me, my words would never get interpreted the way I mean for them to. This has a lot to do with mental conditions of mine, which drastically affect how I view social situations - a statement that one person views as intimidating, and offensive, I could very well view as normal conversation, or even as flirty. So I'd basically need to play by text for most characters, since I'd need to spend something around half an hour coming up with each statement in such a way that it matches my intentions.

[@MagnificentDevil]

You can always speak in third person as well, like "my character warns him that there will be consequences if he refuses" to intimidate or "my character points out that he actually benefits from the deal because..." to persuade. Roleplaying isn't the same thing as acting.

[@MeMyselfandDieRPG]

Yes, exactly. The system is actually designed with people like you in mind. It's the character's skill that determines the outcome; the player's words trigger that skill. Also - and this is key to *many* parts in this book - the game assumes good faith and reasonableness among its players and GM. It assumes that the players are able to have a mature discussion if there's ever a discrepancy. It is, in so many words, a game for grown ups :)

[@jnlsnfamily8747]

Nice, nice. I am not an autist so I have social mechanics up the wazoo. Now do exploration. That's the pillar that's not been codified mechanically that I need help with.

[@danjohnson887]

No, no and no... just garbage...

[@Joshuazx]

Talk stats are for video games. Game mechanics are simulating things we can't do. Talk stats discourage player engagement.

[@MeMyselfandDieRPG]

You state your opinion as a fact. But it just an opinion, based on your experience. In *my* experience, the opposite of what you said is true. Ah, the variety of life!

[@RiktigaFimpen]

I disagree. I usually choose the best of two world. Trying to convince a King to do something might be pure rp, but trying to get something for a lower price from a vendor, might be just a simple die roll.

[@thepittbull1568]

To each their own but I feel highly discouraged in a social encounter in "the world's most popular role-playing game" (and it's adjacents) that doesn't have mechanics to support social interaction.

[@MeMyselfandDieRPG]

@RiktigaFimpen This is how it works in this game. You don’t bust out the Social Encounter rules for every interaction. Context is always king.

[@Joshuazx]

@@MeMyselfandDieRPG In my experience, having a poor talk stat discourages me from engaging with the characters in a setting because I am made to feel like I have low chances to accomplish anything, so I agree that a conservative use of talk stats is better that casual use, or as you put it context is king. That said, I also feel that if I made a beautiful argument for something, that if the GM called for a dice roll because it's supposed to be a special case, then that would feel like being cockblocked by the dice.