Sonic Heroes (Part 2) - Sonic Was Always Good

[@sonic5993]

"Sonic was always good...but not everything about Sonic is good" I don't think there's a quote that sums up this series more than this one, good job.

[@smhsophie]

The main problem with the level design that you mentioned where level assets are reused is an effect of the fact that all the levels were designed by one man (Iizuka) who was forced into such extreme crunch he literally shaved off so many pounds he almost died. For that reason I am willing to forgive the level design, but not willing to forgive SEGA for doing that to a man

[@Legoluigi26]

Sonic Heroes is the prime example of a game that spits in the face of traditional reviewing procedure. The standard for game reviewers is to play the game (and hopefully beat it) in as few sittings as possible to pump out a weekly review asap. I'm not shaming anyone for blasting through a game in a day for a review, since keeping up speed with algorithms is the only way to earn a living for KZbin game reviewers and game journalists alike. To best enjoy games like this, Super Mario 64, and Shadow the Hedgehog, you need to play like a child: doing a few levels each day in between your daily responsibilities and sometimes taking breaks for as long as weeks. Sometimes a game is unsalvageable (Shadow the Hedgehog, imo), but spacing play out can really prevent the fatigue and suffering for games that have a good foundation but issues with structure or padding.

[@yoder6162]

The PS2 and XBOX versions were bugged. The GameCube version is the underrated version, but the PS2 version is the most referenced.

[@Sydney_Angelyt]

if you can’t play more than a couple levels without getting burnt out then it’s a crappy game

[@N0rlight]

This to be honest, it is by far the best Sonic Heroes Reviews I seen. It talks about the bad aspect but also gives it a fair points.

[@ultimateshadeofwar]

20:54 I have play the PC version of Sonic Heroes and whoever told you that regarding the special stages lie to you, because they are the most broken version of those, you wanna know why? Because if you go to the ceiling and you stay there, you run *FASTER THEN BOOSTING.* Getting the emeralds on the PC version is a joke because of how bad they are made... But at less it's quicker then the console version.

[@Pariah6950]

Alright then. Guess these special stages are just completely terrible. Thanks for informing me.

[@scenikeight]

I think the fact that they're doable at all makes them "better" tbh. The console versions are broken in a frustrating way, the PC version is apparently broken in a playable way.

[@sanglish18]

I'm pretty sure It was me who comment that in a previous video, what he said in this video is that it controls better, and it actually controls better, there is NO LIE being told here. Why I think the PC version has better Special Stages is because the collision and controls were heavily improved, I genuinely had a good amount of fun playing the Bonus Challenge and Emerald challenge. I mentioned that the boost doesn't work correctly, but honestly it's something I don't really care about, because while the console versions might have it work correctly, the controls itself are just so frustrating and buggy to control that the level design doesn't work at all because of that, it's practically impossible to dodge the bombs flawlessly in later stages, the boost working better just doesn't compensate at all and it isn't just about the Emerald Challenge, there is also the Bonus Challenge that has different level design, and there you'll certainly not be just running on the ceiling since it's a race to the finish with limited time, forcing you to collect the spheres. If the PC version is worse because you can run of the ceiling and get the emerald quickly, I could say the console versions are just as bad because you can just switch to the power character and keep boosting until you get the emerald in like 10 seconds. So at the end if both versions have broken tricks to get the emeralds quickly, the only big difference is the PC version having much better collision and controls, so that version certainly wins. If I recall correctly "J Reviews" played the PC version when doing his review and he said like the special stages were pretty much fine overhaul, but then you'll se Pariah and most other people playing GC version and they'll be saying it's the worst thing ever (because it is), it does make a HUGE difference and the boost working or not is not the main issue.

[@ultimateshadeofwar]

@@sanglish18 Hey if you enjoy then better on the PC version more power to you, i do enjoy the PC version, it's the version i grew up with. But i don't think there is a single good version of this special stages.

[@sanglish18]

@@ultimateshadeofwar I think it's passable, the character can sometimes lose speed and still change directions own their even on PC but in a much, much less degree than in the console versions, which makes PC at least passable and can be pretty fun regardless of boosting working or not.

[@NerotheGame]

Speaking for my clueless 5 y/o self, Team Rose was an appreciated addition.

[@CoolJoule]

i like how he's like "maybe for a beginner player team rose would suffice" as if that's not literally how omochao describes team rose and that's literally the point.

[@zjzr08]

@@CoolJoule I will say if your finishing baseline is the Last Story then making them different difficulties kinda makes it redundant -- making them different difficulties only works if you only plan for one Team which isn't the only gameplay type

[@DonutSwordsman]

What a good Sunday, thanks for putting this out there. It's been a dry spell for long form reviews and yours are so good

[@ryuken10]

9:25 Still making my way through this series, but I gotta appreciate this really sick transition. Love clever/subtle edits like this.

[@simtek3475]

Very late on this max but Sonic Heroes’ level design went though turbulent times. There were only two people working on level design. Iizuka and someone else. During development, the other guy got sick, so Iizuka was working on it all alone, with lots of time crunch, as is standard in Japan. Iizuka lost over 20 pounds, also got sick, and almost died trying to do the Sonic Heroes level design.

[@shaggy1628]

Can't wait for the story video on Sonic heroes to be 10 minutes long

[@Pariah6950]

It won't be. There's actually a decent amount to talk about.

[@IkinBBfromAnthologyOfTheKiller]

@@Pariah6950 Nah you're just good at finding intresting stuff to talk about in specific topics I certainly didn't expect 1 hour out of it, srsly, well done

[@shaggy1628]

@@Pariah6950 Jesus Christ, an hour and a half

[@Pariah6950]

@@shaggy1628 I wasn't expecting it to be that long either lol.

[@mitch_universe4058]

This comment aged like milk

[@kisparks]

thank you for helping me understand why I love this game and why it's my favorite 3D Sonic game.

[@ellagage1256]

Personally I really like when the Sonic games focus on more than just "go fast" and lean into some more arcade like ranking system established by SA2 so long as it weaves well into the core Sonic gameplay. Sonic Heroes love it or hate it really encourages you to play fast while also giving a shit about your high score for A ranks which I really appreciate... Though it might also be why so many players don't end up using the more advanced tech you mentioned in your first video since focusing on combos and ring bonuses can slow the pace down when you're not even familar with the core mechanics. I feel like this game would have been even better with an official Time Attack mode to really encourage blasting through levels with the really cool team system. Also I must be one of the few people who actually likes all 4 team playthroughs despite their issues. Team Rose especially get a bad rep that kind of feels slightly tinged in misogyny both by the devs and fans (not trying to be mean just honest about how I feel) like yes please continue to kick the dead horse of anything Amy related as "baby mode" like she was in SA1... Like I'm not the biggets fan of the difficulty decision either but Team Rose still are a very short but satisfying playthrough that's somehow more focused on the raw platforming and cuts down on the more gimmicky and longer level design. Unfortunately I feel like reviewers who do 100% playthroughs in a small amount of sittings are never going to recognize those merits

[@fst-biggie5056]

When I played Heroes I only beat the game with Team Rose and gave up with the other teams because I wasn't used to the controls or the advanced tech and I knew you could only get the final ending by playing with every team. After watching this I wanna go back and fully learn the mechanics since it looks fun once you know what you're doing and it'll be something new since I'm one of the people who prefers games that focus on going fast.

[@SkyeWeeb]

The Special Stages in Heroes PC are even WORSE. The boost slows you down, and you're better off hanging around on the ceiling until you get the emerald.

[@N0rlight]

Xbox kinda fixes the special stages, but you can't hang on the ceiling as the horrible physics will punish you sometimes sending you backwards, still to this day I am struggling to get the last emerald.

[@RouteSonic]

@@N0rlight if you want to get the last emerald, play the last level as team rose and use big when you get enough boost. you can get the emerald in like 20 seconds if you do that

[@playerback7722]

True

[@N0rlight]

@@RouteSonic Oh I know about the Team Rose trick. However the xbox is still very janky.

[@Sydney_Angelyt]

I consider being able to cheese the special stages a blessing

[@alexandrpeterberg390]

I don't know if you care about this but I am going to mention it anyway. The levels were designed by one person and the crunch and stress were so bad that he lost 20 pounds. Pretty much the running theme for the rest of the Sonic games is that the development process is not smooth at all. There is a crunch there, it was kinda rushed, understaffed, under budget, or just mismanagement. Maybe even the combination of the 5. Sonic Heroes does have its highs and it's rather very impressive that it's there in the first place despite these conditions. Meanwhile, the lows and the problem we see in the games are probably the product of a very rough (or whatever the opposite of smooth) development process. I do wholeheartedly believe that they can make a great Sonic game with fewer problems if they had a very smooth development process with little crunching, well managed, and definitely not rushed.

[@lasercraft32]

Its fitting that Team Dark feels more like the real game, because their story also happens to have the most depth of the four stories.

[@bryanc7094]

I always wondered why team darks gameplay wasn’t team Sonics. The levels feel way more fleshed out.

[@segatasama]

Criminally underrated channel, thanks for making quality content, i very much enjoy these reviews

[@sheriefwoodard8686]

(This comment is long sorry)I play this game and the different teams a lot and I honestly don’t think the teams are cloned at least not completely. All the teams and characters have differences that make you have to play as them very differently. Sonic and Shadow are the most similar of the Speed characters which makes sense since they have similar abilities and usually play similarly. They’re also the fastest because of their dashing abilities complimenting their rocket accel allowing you to go faster and faster. The main difference between the two is that Shadow stops time after Team blast and Sonic’s “Blast the way” move. The time stop doesn’t slow down time in this game it stops time completely even the level time which is very useful to use for time points in levels and almost essential in extra Team dark levels to save time. As for Sonic after the team blast Sonic can take out all enemies you run into after the team blast buy jumping in the air pressing the dash button when enemies are around which is very useful in the Eggman robot boss battles for taking out extra waves of enemies. Also it’s useful against egg emperor as he eventually stays in one space and has a lot of health. Lastly for Sonic and Shadow they’re the only speed characters that can use their tornadoes for platforming. For Espio he’s unique because his tornado doesn’t bring you to enemies so you have to travel to enemies yourself which is a handicap however when he does he can turn invincible which is useful if you want to skip enemies in an area without them attacking you but to balance this the other characters aren’t active while you’re invisible which means no rocket accel but you can use Espio’s shurikens so you’re not defenseless while invisible. Another advantage of Espio’s invisibility is he can go through lasers which other characters would have to avoid or waste time finding switches to turn off, often lasers can block the way to secret rooms and items so Espio can get these things much faster than any other speed character. Espio is also the 2nd fastest speed character under the hedgehogs because he has the rocket accel but not the dash which is switched with his shurikens. The shurikens don’t make you gain speed like Shadow and Sonic but it’s a move that can be used without loosing momentum before using rocket accel again. The final different ability of Espio is that he can stick to walls like in Knuckles Chaotix which is useful for triangle jump platforms with hazards allowing you to take your time unlike Sonic and Shadow who need to keep bouncing across walls or risk falling from taking too long while Espio can stick infinitely. As for the most unique Speed character Amy you have to play as her the most differently because she’s the slowest of the speed characters. She’s still fast because the rocket accel but she has an attack with her piko hammer which brings Amy to a halt and ends all of your momentum so sparing rocket accel and using it only when it’s necessary is needed. Her piko hammer abilities is useful against close basic enemies without swords because speed characters are weak against sword robots and can be spammed to take basic enemies out quickly. Amy also has a tornado ability but her gimmick is that hers doesn’t take out one enemy at a time but it travels unlike everyone else’s tornadoes and if you line it up against a row of enemies you can take multiple enemies out in one swoop. Amy also has a very unique hovering ability which makes her like a strange almost flight like character. If you hold the jump button Amy will spin her hammer for her to levitate in any direction to gain distance over gaps without switching to the flight character and every enemy she hits allow her to bounce very high. Also you can only use it once but if you use her tornado ability before falling you can actually use this spinning levitating move twice to gain even more distance but no more than that. Lastly Amy’s the only speed character who can’t use triangle jump which her spinning ability I guess is the remedy for. For the power characters which are a bit more complicated because they have different moves for each level they’re on. To start Knuckles has his dashing punch which is supposed to be used to attack enemies and obstacles without loosing speed but we all know you can fall off of platforms because of it the remedy of course staying still and using Knuckles rapid punches which is very useful for still enemies. For his level 1 ability he can leap into the air and pound ground enemies over and over until he stomps the ground which instantly does damage to all enemies around you. For level 2 it’s the same deal but more powerful with more range since fire surrounds Knuckles when you land. Finally for his level 3 shoots out large fire balls from the ground which are pretty much guaranteed to hit all enemies standing in Knuckles circle. Omega unlike Knuckles can’t use the still rapid punching ability that Knuckles has causing him to always be in danger of falling off platforms. For Omega’s level one he spins around shooting bullets while like the first cutscene while having invincibility frames the second is spinning shooting fire from his flame throwers which does the same thing but more damage and the final ability spinning shooting missiles which has more range than Knuckles level 3 but still can miss some enemies, out of all the power abilities I think this one does the most damage. Pretty different although he does have the same animation as Knuckles for gliding unlike in 06. Vector unlike Knuckles and Omega doesn’t dash when attacking instead when he’s alone he bites and when he has Espio and Charmy with him he spits them at enemies while remaining still. Vectors Level 1 and level 2 pretty much work the same as Omegas accept for his level 3 which has him spin around and spit explosive bubble gum that bounces off of walls and blows up on contact. Finally Vector unlike Omega can stomp the ground with his hands which is something Big can do as well but with a different animation like Big also he glides with bubble gum while Big glides with his umbrella which brings me to Big. Big is the lamest of the power characters to me his level one spins his fishing rod, his level 2 spins it with more range and a buoy ring attached and level 3 with a large spike attached. The problem with these moves is that nearby enemies will usually be defeated before you even use it while far enemies are out of reach also it’s very slow. That’s it for Big onto the flight characters who are actually the closest to clone characters because they all have thunder shoot. They do though have unique attacks on their own Tails throws large dummy rings which are actually very useful it does damage and stuns enemies keeping them still and you can throw a bunch of them very useful for team battles too. Charmy’s the most unique of the flight characters because he can teleport through flowers by making them bloom which you can use to not only reset levels but find secret locations and collect power ups and items this can also be used to get a perfect Bingo. He can also sting enemies like he did Eggman. Cream has one ability where she can get Cheese to attack enemies but it’s very weak very slow and almost always misses very useless. I saved Rouge for last because she’s the actual cloned character she’s literally just Tails with a different skin. Finally the team blast Sonic gives Sonic the “Blast the way” ability but you can also do it with tails and Knuckles using thunder shoot and by having Knuckles throw Sonic however it’s not guaranteed to hit all enemies if you do it with them. Team Darks team Blast has Omega destroy all enemies and Shadow stop time and I already went over how this is useful but during Eggman robots bosses if you loose all your rings this ultimate is useful for getting enemies off your back and having more time to collect rings which are frozen for that time. The Chaotix collect rings for each enemy they destroy with their team Blast the more powerful each enemy the more rings you get. This power up also remains for a short time after the team blast and it’s useful to have a level 2 or 3 Charmy shoot upcoming enemies quickly giving you even more rings. If you do attack and get enough rings in that time you instantly get team blast back for the Chaotix. This is and insane ability for the the Eggman robot carnival bosses because they’re enemies everywhere and powerful ones too so you can pretty much spam team blast and get hundreds of rings with the Chaotix. Finally Team Rose makes the team momentarily invincible and gives everyone in the team instant level ups while destroying all enemies in the area

[@Pariah6950]

I know about all these things. But they are so minor I did not think they were worth mentioning.

[@gazingshimmers]

I've honestly always really enjoyed the Team Rose playthrough, while it does make the stages rather hallow, the fact they're so short makes plowing through them to speedrun (mostly to grind for chaos emeralds) feel rather fun imo since attempts are usually around 2 minutes a stage. Though personally I was more of a Team Chaotix enjoyer than Team Dark, they're both not cakewalks which is a plus, but I'm just a sucker for collecting things in video games, and that makes Team Chaotix a bit more fun to me than raw gameplay Team Dark has. :P That being said I wish Heroes did what SA1, Shadow, heck even Rush did and have different playthroughs have different stage progressions. And it would of made it a bit more interesting if say each Team have a unique stage theme or 2 that one (or even none) of the other teams don't go through, or have. The unique Team Battles being the only COMPLETELY differing content just feels rather lazy. Shadow the Hedgehog, while rather egregious with the pure amount of gameplay required, gives you ultimately quite a varied experience among the playthroughs, and is IMO why I enjoy Shadow more than Heroes as a "complete" gaming experience. 'Course I know I'm not obligated to unlock the Last Story in either game to have a fulfilling time with it, but still :P

[@grahamjhallaudio8198]

Is it just me.. or with each new episode Pariah sounds more like Yakko Warner!!? 😆 only kidding about lol Love the content and really happy to be a recent fan. 👌

[@DonutSwordsman]

i think if you heard yakko again you'd see a large difference lol

[@grahamjhallaudio8198]

@@DonutSwordsman your right it’s much more high pitched for Yakko but he does sound like the voice after. Check out ‘Rude Dog’ cartoon and tell me it’s not uncanny 😆

[@CRAgamer]

Honestly he sounds more like Donatello from the 3d nickelodeon turtles show.

[@hannahsflahnnels]

i am late to this one, and of course great analysis as always, but i really appreciate shadow getting mike wazowski'd by cheese in the thumbnail

[@Sydney_Angelyt]

Game developers don’t HAVE to make their games long they can just choose not to.

[@Legoluigi26]

But then there's the issue of money. A lot of people won't buy a game if the main campaign is not long enough. Kind of a short sighted way to look at things, but that's just how people can be. If nobody buys the game, you get no money, and then you can't make games anymore.

[@Sydney_Angelyt]

@@Legoluigi26 sonic generations is short and it sold great

[@Core12054]

I can't say I agree with your point on just ignoring the last story. Most people want to play up to the "Final Boss" and say they got the story of the game wrapped up. If you only play one team, you don't get that payoff. Now you may say the final story sucks, but regardless, you haven't experienced the ending of the game without doing it. People have been conditioned with the last few Sonic games that the story should end with an epic Super Sonic battle, so if you don't get one at the end of Heroes, it feels lacking in a way.

[@nicu227]

As a kid I managed to 100% this on PC and I remember it was kinda fun (I cant remember shit about team chaotix b-side completion and I think its trauma) But for years I always downloaded a 100% save play superhard and the final boss if I ever wanted to replay this game

[@Jaylobeans]

Happy Easter 🐣

[@sonnyyoung867]

Your rant on game padding and the audience's need for longer games reminds me of this one article I've read on Animal Crossing gamers complaining about how fatigued, bored and tired they are after playing literally 150-200 hours of the game non stop. Do people realize they can simply just drop it and move on? There was also this $1 per hour argument some dude made up, in which if the game doesn't provide enough hours to earn back its original price, then what's the point. Doesn't matter if the content's dogshit, if there isn't 60 hours of content, then it's not worth $60. It's more so of gamers setting their expectations too high when they demand every single AAA game in existence to be 100+ hours of gameplay and another 100+ of story. As for Heroes itself, I do have a huge appreciation and soft spot for it. It's actually one of those games that I see quite a lot when I was a new Sonic fan, because I only played the Gems Collection back in the day, and unlocking a bunch of Heroes screenshots and promo kinda made me believe it was like some next-gen game or something, even though by that point, Heroes was already 8 or so years old. I'm pretty sure my friend also wanted to lend me his copy of Heroes back then as well, although I don't recall ever playing it, until recently. I guess I just really love the whole aspect of switching your favorite characters on the fly, as well as the puzzle-like element the entire gameplay has. As you said, I always have my mind constantly moving of what to do in each situation and the levels themselves do a great job at being engaging to myself, the player. This also has probably my favorite set of playable characters in any Sonic game. It kinda really was the Smash Bros Ultimate of the Sonic series up to that point, now that I think about it. It's refreshing to hear a Heroes review that isn't blaming its sole existence for Sonic's dwindling rockstar status within the gaming industry, because that shit's annoying, if I have to be completely honest. I highly doubt any kid playing Heroes when it first came out would even care nor notice the quality between SA2 and Heroes, to the point where they'd think it's the first "Dark Age" game. This comment is long enough as it is. Looking forward to the story analysis and beyond.

[@Pariah6950]

I cut out a part talking about that whole 1 hour for 1 dollar thing and how insane that is. I can't believe some people think that way about games.

[@Voltricity435]

yea i don't agree with the $1 = 1 hour thing either, i think it's ridiculous. when it comes to if a game is worth the price i think it's a balance of quality, length, and replay ability. a game can be short but very high quality and really replayable. for example metroid dread, first playthrough of mine only took 7 and a half hours or so but the quality was good enough to where that 1 playthrough alone was worth the $60 i paid for the game, but metroid games are also highly replayable so it was definitly worth the price. i go into the same mindset when buying as onic game, generally prettys hort but good quality (or sometimes not with sonic lol) and highly replayable. that doesn't mean i don't enjoy longer experiences though, as padded out as sonic unleashed can be i enjoyed my like 20ish hour first playthrough and now it's my 2nd favorite sonic game. so overrall it's really just a balance. i think the main issue can arise if the game isn't very long nor replayable even if the quality is good, but generally if the quality is good you'll want to replay it if the first runthrough isn't very long.

[@Safalmao]

"sonic heroes is the most repetitive sonic game up to this point" sonic advance 2: im i a joke to you??

[@isaacargesmith8217]

TLDR: its not that people mean you're literally forced to play the scenarios. Its that them being required and being so similar to each other and long to get the finale makes the reasonable goal of "beat the game" for most players a real chore and most people do want to beat games. Even if the fights suck they're still the climax of the game and there's a reason perfect chaos and the biolizard are so iconic even if players never replay them. End goals are really important to a game and narrative. What people mean when they say the game makes you play through it 4 times isnt that its literally forcing you to play each scenario, its that in order to beat the game which is usually what most players end goals are for most video games. Its why everyone complains about big the cat in SA1 and how they're forcing players to play him. Its not that they mean they cant play around him and just avoid his scenario, its that to get to that end goal of beating the game and finishing the story he needs to be completed. The final bosses might not be great as you say but regardless that goal of beating the game is something most players do wanna do, especially given a lot of people do like sonic's narratives. There's a reason for how little people replay these bosses, and for how suddenly the biolizard shows up, they are by far the most iconic bosses of their games as well as some of the most iconic scenes from the series. With the old classic games as well as mania if I recall you still can get the main ending as one character. Knuckles has a side story sure in S3&K if I recall but that isnt something you have to get to see the main climax of the story. The climax is an important thing to players even in endlessly replayable games. I genuinely am willing to bet the reason less people talk about metal overload in large part is BECAUSE of how much more gate kept players are from that game's ending due to having to do all 4 scenarios on top of the length of some of them which is REALLY not a good thing even for a replayable game like a sonic game. Like really think about how weird it is that no one talks about this boss usually even though metal sonic is like one of the most popular characters in ANY sonic canon. Most players consider climaxes an important part of a game even if its meant to be replayable. Its why the ending and final boss is so iconic to mario 64 even though most players realistically arent even going to see it much since its a one and done thing. Its a capstone for an adventure, a culmination to feel like "I DID IT" and with how free form getting to it is in mario 64 its helped to cement the iconic importance and love for that game to a lot of players. The biolizard fight isnt fun to play, its actually kinda bad in a lot of regards imo but there's a reason that fight and end scene as well as live and learn are so iconic to sonic as a whole. If just getting the emeralds and maybe beating one scenario or sonic's specifically or something was what got the ending, WAY more people I bet would be talking about that final boss and ending. At least that's my opinion and sorry its rambly and long. Good heroes videos by the way, been binging your videos lately.

[@Pariah6950]

I understand. But I'd argue the game does a decent enough job of feeling conclusive in a single playthrough. You get a final boss against Egg Emperor, and each time has their own story that has a decent wrap up. The last story mainly gives narrative closure to an element that barely exists in any of the main stories. Even then, the last story is a finale for all of the stories, so playing it without seeing each of them first wouldn't work as well.

[@elmark3550]

I never get the true endings in sonic games but I still feel like the normal final bosses are a satisfying ending

[@zjzr08]

I personally think "Last Chapters" are frankly bonus content as you get to credits after finishing a certain path and they do have solid conclusions. Like sure we get bonus stories for Gerald Robotnik for SA2, but the Hero Side I think is already a closed story in stopping the Eclipse Cannon from Dr. Eggman. I feel if they are meant to be part of the main story then I feel there's no reason for them to be invisible to the player before you unlock them. At the very least "Last Chapters" should have a visible "?" menu option where it tells you that you can only unlock it when you beat all paths if they arern't bonus material IMO. 2D Sonic have something similar when you get all Chaos Emeralds and get to the end and while they do unlock true endings I do think their regular endings are satisfying enough although I get that's subjective.

[@pengeibro7548]

Your criticism on repetitive level design is absolutely valid but I find it hard to call the level design lazy when the reason is most likely because Iizuka was working on the level design by himself for the most part and was crunched hard. Upper management is probably and absolutely what makes this game feel so.. rushed. Nothing new for Sonic tho.

[@Pariah6950]

The issue isn't the level design. It's the asset reuse. So it's more so that the people who made the level assets were too rushed.

[@azylan]

i'm aware i'm really late for these videos but i think you're a good commentator. i never really understood why people could ever enjoy sonic heroes and you explained it very well to the point that i can see the game in a different way now. with that being said, as somebody who always hated heroes, i'd like to explain as best i can why your reasons for liking heroes just didn't resonate with me (and likely many other people) when playing heroes for the first time (even if, again, i'm really late to the video) you state that although decision making isn't the entirety of sonic heroes as a game, it IS the part that makes heroes particularly fun, and after hearing about all the fun intricacies and little design elements that make heroes a complex decision-making game, i'm inclined to agree. that, however, is exactly the problem with heroes' gameplay loop. the ability to enjoy the decision making in heroes is locked behind a major accessibility barrier, and that is knowing that there is a decision to be made in the first place. many of the fun decisions you mentioned in part 1 are not actually communicated to players at all. as somebody who finished all four main stories and then the last story before dropping the game, i was unaware of these throughout the entire playthrough: - speed characters gaining a boosted jump off a tornado after holding the button - removing the helmets off those giant robots using a tornado - speed characters gaining the "wind" attribute at level 3 allowing them to homing attack into poles to climb them - power characters being able to skip portions of stages by gliding at high speed - power orbs dropped from enemies only giving levels to characters OTHER than the equipped character - gaining a burst of speed by swapping to speed after diving with a power character - apparently increasing the level of your flight characters increases their flight meter? i can't even confirm this one for a good portion of my first playthrough as a kid, i didn't even understand exactly how the flight meter on flight characters would deplete based on distance, not based on height or flight time. i also didn't realize for a while that you could attack without holding a direction to keep power characters in place while they attack. none of this is a skill issue, i know some people would quickly say so, but i'm perfectly capable of understanding these maneuvers. i just wrote them all out. the problem is that i had no idea these ever existed in the first place. the game never communicates these things to you, and you're not given an incentive to experiment with your moveset. the best you get is the beginner's tutorial and then a bunch of vague hint bubbles with shallow advice like "maybe we should go up that pole?" or "i bet sonic would be useful here" with so little knowledge of the game available to new and unaware players, there is no capacity for them to really enjoy this game's decision-making, because they don't even know what their choices are. then, without deeper knowledge of the game's mechanics, i actually think heroes has some of the worst design out of any sonic game in the franchise. there is no player expression, no interesting decisions, and no fun gameplay involved in running into a pole and having to switch to the speed character and perform the tornado move to climb up. similarly so when the player is presented with a breakable door or a group of enemies and has to switch to a power character, or when the player is presented with a large gap or a tall platform and has to switch to the flight character. it actually becomes too simplistic, it's like playing simon says but janky and slippery. if the complexity flies over people's heads then there is so, so little to be enjoyed about heroes in my opinion. none of this is to say that your viewpoint on the game is invalid, rather, the tragic thing about heroes is that while there are great things about the game that some people have a lot of love for, there are a lot of people who genuinely had a horrible experience playing heroes, and for entirely valid reasons. for all the hard work and creative love put into heroes it is also a game with so much wasted potential. imagine if the game were more effective at communication to the player, if each team actually had their own stages, if the game weren't quite as janky, if the development team wasn't so rushed... maybe this game would have turned out entirely differently? maybe it'd be remembered as a universally loved sonic game? now, though, i doubt we'll get another heroes-style game ever again, and that's a shame. now i kind of wish we would get a sequel that would do the heroes formula justice. sorry for long and wordy comment, this is just how i like getting my thoughts out

[@JAM609]

When you defeat an enemy you have 4 seconds to hit 4 more, and the timer resets for each one, to get 2000 points

[@Fr3nZy51]

26:15 This is a big reason why I think that Shadow The Hedgehog (2005) Is a guilty pleasure of a game for me, playing through the game 10 times is just flat out not worth it to me for what you get so I just do 2 playthroughs and I'm done with the game and the different paths allows me to choose which stages I want to play the most. New players won't know to do this, which is why I think people dog on the game so much just for playing 1 fully neutral playthrough.

[@TheGerkuman]

I wouldn't m,ind Shadow if they let you do what Visual Novels do and start part way through.

[@DonutSwordsman]

i agree. as a kid, i went and did 3 hugely dif playethroughts going full evil, full good, and neurtral. of course having limited games i ended up getting to hyper shadow ending, but that extra content to me feels like it was for kids who have limited games to play and just more fun to mess around with. of course to an adult its tedious, but to a kid its "hey, more levels to run around it"

[@xxsupersayen34xxnoe33]

the moment you said that you weren't forced to play the four team is the moment I decided to subscribe

[@shaankelly1302]

Also yes i agree length is irrelevant to me too. If the game is fun i will replay anyway where the total hours i get out of it will more than justify the cost as it is. Like i have 100 hours in Sonic Mania and thats a 2 hour game on a first run

[@farid3454]

So I watched the video and I agree with basically everything. But I don't exactly agree with the whole boss fight thing. Sure gameplay wise they are pretty bad but setting wise. Metal overlord is probably my favorite boss in video game history the only other one coming close being spamton. Merlina from black knight and some others. The whole metal sonic has become so obsessed with killing sonic he even betrayed eggman thing is probably one of the coolest things in the entire franchise Period. and, this is something that most people will ignore. But the dialogue in this bossfights is an absolute joy to read and hear especially in the specific context the game is in. Which is why so many people tend to ignore all of this things in sonic games(I think) they are just not familiar enough with the franchises story and lore to understand why it's so cool. But yeah the boss fight gameplay wise suck but everything else for me is fantastic. The setting. The music(no need to explain). The context. The dialogue all of it makes it one of my favorite things in sonic heroes. And also I do think sonic heroes is a good game. But it s far from being VERY good game and even more from a GREAT one but I do thinks it's good. And it obviously not a bad one or even mediocre but stil not really that spectacular.

[@Pariah6950]

Oh, story wise, it's really cool. Totally. But this video was just about gameplay. I'll be covering the game's story in the next video.

[@Tea-Slurper]

Don't do 100%. Just don't. Also the special stages are actually so trash it's impressive. How they thought the game was ready for sale... I have no idea.

[@michaelkindt3288]

Slight correction: There are actually a couple more slight differences between the teams, Each flight character has an attack they can perform if you press the attack button while they aren't carrying any characters (you're realistically only going to perform this attack if you force the other two characters to hold a switch, or maybe if you _really_ spam the attack button). Tails and Rouge both drop fake ring bombs that I think can zap enemies, Charmie can sting ( The animation for this is used or opening up the flowers, making me think the flowers force the no character attack ), and Cream sent out Cheese to attack enemies. In addition, each speed character has an action they perform if you release the attack button before the Rocket Excel is charged. Sonic and Shadow both do a kick, Esbeo throws a ninja star, and If I remember, Amy uses her hammer. And that's about everything I'm pretty sure you did imagine your video. Makes sense you wouldn't notice them, they're pretty inconsequential with minimum utility. (I did use Esbeo's Ninja stars to cheese their fight against Team Rose though, which is almost definitely inefficient, but still.)

[@Pariah6950]

I am well aware of these things. But they are so small an inconsequential that I didn't bother to mention them.

[@michaelkindt3288]

@@Pariah6950-.-Fair enough.

[@sh21dow]

Man you really need to step up your uploading schedule. I know they take a lot of time and effort but i love your video so much i cant wait two weeks to see a new one

[@Pariah6950]

I'm going to try focusing more on videos soon so I can get more out as quickly as possible. The reason there was such a gap between this video and the last... is because I was playing Elden Ring lol. But I finished it so now that's a whole bunch of free time I have back.

[@sh21dow]

@@Pariah6950 thank you. I really appreciate that you at least read and reply to your comments. I know i said we want more vieos but dont exhaust yourself just do it as you like

[@Pariah6950]

I won't. I do this because I enjoy it. I'm not going to burn myself out. "As quickly as possible" means pacing myself appropriately.

[@sh21dow]

@@Pariah6950 i appreciate it. Thanks for the hard work

[@luke4502]

I always appreciate these videos

[@nindooongpark]

14:55 i actually think its a kinda lame way to make passive traps. Itd be more interesting if they utilized the 3d movesets or something to vary things up instead of just jumping like 2d games. Because as the game goes on and you become comfortable with the passive traps then all you would do is just mindlessly press the jump button right after the setpiece anyway.

[@spartanq7781]

This game should have alternated between teams in one playthrough. Every team goes through the same stages at the same time narrativly anyway. That would make this game exceptionally as well as much shorter stages. Sonic Heroes with these tweaks and no special stages would be peak. That was all they needed to do to fix this game's biggest problems.

[@sanglish18]

Wait what... I had no idea you have released Part 2 of Sonic Heroes, I thought it was Part 1 and then the Story, whatever, I just noticed right now. There is a user named "Maxtime" in the comment section saying that what I have commented regarding the Special Stages were a "lie" and I replied to him, please read my reply on that because I think what he said is really wrong. While Team Dark is certainly my preferred way to play the game nowadays, I still think Team Rose is the way to go for first-time players so they can get a better grip on the controls and an overhaul less frustrating experience with lesser jank, so that later the player feel more motivated to play the harder ones, it will end up having a much smoother learning curve. Sonic Heroes is a quite complex game and as a kid I was never able to beat with any team other than Team Rose (I was stuck in Chaotix missions and Team Sonic and Team Dark were just too difficult in general), Sonic is a game franchise that always tried to appeal to a wide audience, considering a large portion of this audience is for kids I think Team Rose offered a good experience, I had just as much fun replaying Team Rose levels back then as with Team Dark nowadays, so I definitely see value in having that included. While Team Dark can be the definitive way to play the "Sonic Heroes", it's just not that simple to have fun with it due to its difficulty and complexity, so I definitely don't think Team Sonic should be labeled as an "Easy Mode" in anyway, especially since a lot players still struggle with it. Cream actually has a different solo attack than Tails and Rouge, in which she throws her Chao, but this move is really useless and I never got it to work properly so I don't even know it's effect. Charmy has a different solo attack too. Finally someone who spoke exactly what I think about that stupid "Oh but you are obligated to play four times" argument, I can add even more on that, alongside the public demanding more hours, I also find so annoying the modern gaming as a whole, because you can't just have fun and stop the game once you don't have fun anymore, there is this need for approval, this need to "scratch a checklist of games to be played" or like a PhD you have to obtain that proves that you have beaten the game so you can talk about it on social media and stuff, this argument of "obligating you" doesn't really come from the game but from people itself that believes they must achieve a specific goal when playing a game, while that can be a choice on their own, trying to treat as if you can't have fun with Sonic Heroes BECAUSE you have to play four times is really stupid.

[@SlammerFr]

Part 1 had me a little worried you were gonna leave some of my biggest problems with the game out but you addressed alot of them here. I HATE the repeating bits of level design within the same level. Halo: Combat evolved does the same thing frequently, ensuring that out of that entire series, #1 is the only one I'm never eager to replay

[@Safalmao]

i mean in the first video he kept going on about how its more of a classic game than both adventures, yet he never mentioned it had specials stages in part 1.

[@ehhorve857]

I was the 1 percent that didnt play as sonic. my first thought was "ROBOT" followed by "ALLIGATOR". as a matter of fact, I'm a rare person who plays tonic games, to NOT play as tonic, every possibility I get, I pick someone else, because *just like mario,* tonic iz the least interesting thing about his world. I havent played a lot uv tonic games recently.

[@RTHbeto27]

Really like Heroes it was my first Sonic game, i usually replay it just doing team Sonic but yeah next time I'm doing Dark team and will seek a 100% save file for the super hard mode

[@RoboticEdward]

The PC version of Heroes is so bugged you can just... not move the control stick unless it's to dodge the mines and you'll get the emeralds by doing near-absolutely nothing

[@crashban4t.f.s.b783]

You make a good point about the length.

[@UsingGorillaLogic]

The only reason I prefer Adventure 2 to heroes is I don't like the casino levels or the rail levels. Frog forest however is my favorite Sonic level ever.

[@shaankelly1302]

Regarding the level design. It was only the job of two devs and Ilzuka took lead after one got sick. Sega rushed this game (no surprise) and Iluzka got sick lost 20 lbs and developed insomnia trying to get this out by deadline. Probably why there is so much copy paste. So as much as i dont like this game or level design i will blame Sega on this aspect. Ilzuka did the entirty of the level design for all 4 teams by himself under a tight deadline. Sega has rushed every sonic game ever as far as i know. Even the original games and all the classics. Hell they wanted Frontiers out in 2021 and they had to beg sega to give it another year. I love Frontiers, i think its the best 3d sonic game but it has its share of jank and pop in cant imagine what it wouldve been if it came out last year. SEGA, please let devs have the time to carry out their entire vision. Goes for all higher ups really. Pokemon is also guilty of this

[@STAXONDECK1]

You know after u get all A ranks on every level you unlock “super hard mode” where it’s harder than team dark and u use Team Sonic

[@Nieveria]

here's my take on "you dont need to play all four stories" i do understand that you look at these games exclusively from a current day perspective, and yes, in the current day where you can get the game off the internet for free and no one has any right to say it's morally wrong because sega doesn't sell the game anymore, it's entirely valid to just load it up, play through team sonic or team dark's story, and maybe if you REALLY want to, slap on a 100% save file to fight the final bosses. but most people who treat the "proper" way to get to the final bosses as ridiculous had to actually _buy_ the game. it's not about "my game needs to be long because (incomprehensible)", but rather "i spent like $30-$50 on this and i want to get my money's worth of it, but to do that i have to play the same levels four times with slightly different end goal locations or stipulations", which is a much more understandable viewpoint once again not saying i disagree with the sentiment of "you're not forced at gunpoint to play as team rose or chaotix", but it's definitely from a different perspective from that of people who bought the game when it came out

[@AizakkuAnalysis]

The special stages are the reason I'll never bother completing this game.

[@SaddieMoon]

26:17 You aren’t wrong, the aside from completing the game. When it comes to other’s mindset, the game isn’t over until its main story is over. But then again, if you compare it to beating a path in Undertale, beating the four stories and the last story is equivalent to beating a single path in Undertale. Which doesn’t make perfect sense, but that’s how people “beating” Sonic games is like. Getting the good ending/full story than getting a good amount of the gameplay.

[@JAM609]

You don’t understand, I HAVE to complete the game! I have to get every A rank. It’s the only way to prove I can do it!

[@Tye2K]

Hey Pariah, I’m a really big fan of your Sonic reviews. Are you ever gonna cover the Sonic 4 games? I know they’re not mainline but I am curious as to how you might break that down. Also, I’m not sure if you ever played this but have you ever considered covering fan games like Sonic Robo Blast 2?

[@Ender-kk7gg]

Sonic 4 games?

[@mocksuxker69]

@@Ender-kk7gg Sonic 4 ep. 1 and Sonic 4 ep. 2

[@Tye2K]

@@Ender-kk7gg yeah, I feel like while they are kind of… you know, I just wanted to hear Pariah’s take on it because I’m very interested to see how he breaks it down like he does in these videos.

[@Pariah6950]

Of course I'll be covering Sonic 4. And I do plan on covering many fan games after all the official stuff.

[@Voltricity435]

@@Pariah6950 i can't wait to see you tear sonic 4 apart, it'll be a fun watch

[@crashban4t.f.s.b783]

So it’s not Sonic Heroes. It’s Shadow Heroes.

[@DanielFahimi]

I have two questions: 1. Are you planning to do a story analysis with this game? I mean, it doesn't have much of a story, but it would make a ten minutes video. 2. Is your take on Shadow the Hedgehog (2005) going to be positive, negative, or mixed?

[@Pariah6950]

1. Yes. 2. I will treat it like I do every game. I will give it credit where it deserves, and point out flaws when I see them. But I will say, I do legitimately like the game.

[@senzusensei]

HQ resolution?

[@bryanc7094]

Oh well, the mini rant at the end and your comment section in general tell me why things are the way they are with this franchise.

[@Kingbeat1]

No the worst are sonic lost world 3ds because of the gyro at least i can control these character with the stick

[@cynicalsans7225]

Op

[@TheDrunkLawyer]

Just play Amy story 1st