Doug Wilson's Unconvincing Argument For Theistic Determinism | Leighton Flowers | Calvinism

[@7CorgiGirl]

When you’ve listened to Leighton for a long time. The objections he puts up become easier to understand. They begin meaningful and obvious. If your brain was geared in to Calvinism for thirty years, as mine was, then it takes a while to crack through the Calvin talk. But once you do, you realise you’ve been wrong for so long. Then the humour comes through, and you can’t help smile or even chuckle, at how daft you were to ever have been a Calvinist.

[@Joan-ph2es]

It occurs to me that Calvinism operates in the exact same way as post-modernism -- the theory advances by manipulating the definitions of relevant terms, condemns all opponents due to an unreasonable conviction that only they are right, and has a handy list of insulting labels to slap onto those opponents, and stubbornly persists in using them, even if there is no truth at all in the accusation. Post-modernists call people racist, intolerant, bigoted, etc who aren't, while Calvinists call people who disagree Arminian, Pelagian, stubborn vessels of clay who protest against God's shaping when they aren't. It's a very interesting parallel, seems very valid. Makes me wonder what other similarities there are between them.

[@NS4L1683]

Good observation

[@richardthenryvideos]

Yes it is very true. Sadly in my calvinist circles, which I appreciate and have gleaned much from though I don't consider myself a calvinist in any proper way. Nevertheless what I saw time and time again and still see are the same tactics left us and Democrats use within politics are used within the church namely this tutorial logical debate as you are pointing out regarding post-modernism and Calvinism

[@MrWeebable]

Another similarity: in both Post-Modernism (specifically Wokeism) and Calvinism there is Original Sin. You are guilty from the start. You're denial of your guilt is proof of your blindness to your [privilege/deadness]

[@LeticiaFrenette]

It is gnostic for sure....secret knowledge that only a few chosen can obtain!

[@eeman1335]

I work in the Electrical Engineering field and making things deterministic is actually the easy part. Particularly in software code or for my background which is in FPGAs making things _instructionally_ or predetermined step by step execution is quite straight forward. Where things get really complicated is when I want to introduce randomness to an output. Particularly when describing voting circuits. This is where I don't want a predetermined outcome to the solution. I want the *circuit* to determine that response, not me as the designer. To do this, I must define all the conditions and the basis for voting and even the randomness to which it operates. I want it to truly operate on it's own, even though I defined it's boundaries for the choices it makes. Though I may ultimately know the choice it will make doesn't detract from the fact it was the one who made the choice. The coding for this is quite complex and to do it best I have found requires a small piece of hardware operating outside it's predetermined specs. Now I understand that I must lean on a small smidgen of God's creative spirit to create this, as He is the Creator. What I create is minimalistic as best. I've done my best to remove a preset condition to the response, but God however is infinite in power and His wisdom is without measure. He's so powerful, that when He says to His creation... _choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve_ (Joshua 24:15) He's not lying to you. He's really given that choice to you! Choice is possibly one of God's greatest attributes in creation itself. A crowning attribute of His Devine power. While He holds all creation together by the word of His power, he's divinely made you responsible for the portion you been given. It's why He calls YOU! to repentance (Acts 17:30). And it's why those who say no, the outcome is on their heads, not God's. This why when you refuse the call... _but since you reject it, and_ *judge yourselves* _unworthy of everlasting life_ (Acts 13:46)

[@jjphank]

OSAS Hebrews 6:18. ..It is impossible for god to lie. 3 verses in the Bible say your name can be blotted out of the book of life, for 3 various reasons; Psalm 69:28, revelation 3:5, 22:19! Never receiving Jesus is not the only way to go to hell Says Matthew 7:21-23 ; verse 23 ‘away from me I never knew you’ does not apply to everybody, Jesus says this twice in verses 21 and 22! “Not everyone will say to me (on that day)……., yes many will say…..” If OSAS was true he would’ve said “everyone and all” instead of “not everyone and Many”! So not everyone will go to hell based on never knowing Jesus, and other verses will back this up as well! you can no longer use Matthew 7:23 to say they were never saved to begin with! Same with 2 Peter 2 “after knowing the Lord, they went back into their vomit as a dog; or back into the mud as a pig wallowing in the mud”. The word ‘knowing’ is the same word in Matthew 7:23, it’s ‘ginosko’ in the Greek- it’s a salvific relationship with Jesus! So you can lose your salvation, says this verse as well! 2 Peter 2:20 “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning!” THEY ARE ENTANGLED IN THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD…AGAIN- says this verse! Jude 12 - “twice dead”; Dead in sin, born again, dead again! And there’s many more; Revelation chapters 2 & 3 are full of ultimatums and all Jesus is focused on is our works! Revelation 2: 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place! Revelation 2:14 there are some among you….. 16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. These are just 2 and Jesus says “he who overcomes” , Overcomes is present active- future tense, and Jesus says this to all 7 churches, even the 2 good ones! You have to stay faithful to the end of your life to go to heaven! John 3:16 is he who believes, or continues to believe will have eternal life! it doesn’t say ‘believed’ past tense, you have to maintain your faith to go to heaven! The Greek word ‘believes’ is ‘Pistis’ which basically means faithfulness so faith equals faithfulness, according to the Bible! So if you have problems with this, then you have problems with the word of God, the Bible! You need to study these passages so that you can make it to heaven! If your pastor cannot answer these questions according to what I just said, then you need to leave that church!

[@eeman1335]

@@jjphank I think you maybe have too many window tabs open and responded to the wrong one. There's no discussion here about OSAS

[@jjphank]

@@eeman1335 note taken; Job 38:35 “and were you there when I created the lightnings and they say ‘here we are’ ?” 3300 years later, James Maxwell, discovered that light rays & electricity, are two forms of the same thing! So the “here we are“ in the passage is talking about telecommunications 3300 years earlier, than was discovered And utilized! Pretty cool, huh?

[@kevinkleinhenz6511]

@@jjphankUhm… ya you might be on the wrong thread or video.

[@jjphank]

@@kevinkleinhenz6511 caveat: no offense to our great God, and Savior, Jesus Christ of the Bible: But Who are you, the Jesus police? What’s your badge number?

[@AlexanderosD]

I love Douglas Wilson as a brother in Christ, but man he is hard to listen to in his pre-recorded videos that are just a collection of witty worded canned analogies and quips. 😅 Great job presenting consistent Calvinism as always Leighton! Another usual example of Calvinism's incorrect and low view of God's Sovereignty; Calvinist Sovereignty: God is on His throne, therefore He MUST be in meticulous divine control of all things. Biblical Sovereignty: God is on His throne, Though all the Earth be against Him, though my body fails, though the nations rage and the mountains fall into the sea, the Lord God is on His throne.

[@fernandosviewpoint]

Thank you brother Flowers for publicly presenting the clear truth of Scripture in a simple and firm manner exposing the falsehood of a doctrine that in a deceiving manner distorts the light of the truth of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[@jjphank]

OSAS Hebrews 6:18. ..It is impossible for god to lie. 3 verses in the Bible say your name can be blotted out of the book of life, for 3 various reasons; Psalm 69:28, revelation 3:5, 22:19! Never receiving Jesus is not the only way to go to hell Says Matthew 7:21-23 ; verse 23 ‘away from me I never knew you’ does not apply to everybody, Jesus says this twice in verses 21 and 22! “Not everyone will say to me (on that day)……., yes many will say…..” If OSAS was true he would’ve said “everyone and all” instead of “not everyone and Many”! So not everyone will go to hell based on never knowing Jesus, and other verses will back this up as well! you can no longer use Matthew 7:23 to say they were never saved to begin with! Same with 2 Peter 2 “after knowing the Lord, they went back into their vomit as a dog; or back into the mud as a pig wallowing in the mud”. The word ‘knowing’ is the same word in Matthew 7:23, it’s ‘ginosko’ in the Greek- it’s a salvific relationship with Jesus! So you can lose your salvation, says this verse as well! 2 Peter 2:20 “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning!” THEY ARE ENTANGLED IN THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD…AGAIN- says this verse! Jude 12 - “twice dead”; Dead in sin, born again, dead again! And there’s many more; Revelation chapters 2 & 3 are full of ultimatums and all Jesus is focused on is our works! Revelation 2: 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place! Revelation 2:14 there are some among you….. 16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. These are just 2 and Jesus says “he who overcomes” , Overcomes is present active- future tense, and Jesus says this to all 7 churches, even the 2 good ones! You have to stay faithful to the end of your life to go to heaven! John 3:16 is he who believes, or continues to believe will have eternal life! it doesn’t say ‘believed’ past tense, you have to maintain your faith to go to heaven! The Greek word ‘believes’ is ‘Pistis’ which basically means faithfulness so faith equals faithfulness, according to the Bible! So if you have problems with this, then you have problems with the word of God, the Bible! You need to study these passages so that you can make it to heaven! If your pastor cannot answer these questions according to what I just said, then you need to leave that church!

[@kevinkleinhenz6511]

@@jjphankNo offense but what does your comment have to do with the lead comment? 🤔

[@jjphank]

@@kevinkleinhenz6511 just genius trolling ….that’s all

[@JesusProtects]

​@@jjphank why do you even bring osas to the conversation? It has nothing to do with provisionism vs determinism.

[@jjphank]

@@JesusProtects I bring it up to keep you from uttering idle words, because Matthew 12:36 “every idle word will be judged” never Tell somebody that they can never lose their salvation ! OSAS is Dangerously wrong & i’ve got 30to50 verses that can prove it, so provisionism is wrong! The five point Armenians stance, is the correct theology!

[@eugenejoseph7076]

Wilson, in his convoluted exegesis, is too narrow minded to see that AFTER the Fall, He continued a relationship with Adam, Eve, Abel and Cain. He spoke with Adam 'where are you?' as though God didn't known what had happened. He wanted to hear from Adam because God wanted to have a two way conversation with him. God then, proceeded to shown them what was needed to cover their sins, the shedding of blood until the perfect sacrifice was given and ended the sacrificial system. He even told them the deceiver would be crushed (Alleluia!) Then, again, after the Fall, God spoke with Cain and asked him, 'where is your brother?'. God knew, but AGAIN, God wanted a two way communication with Cain. This two way relationship continued through to the New Testament, when God's prophet and messengers announced a new covenant was coming. So, tell me Wilson, when exactly, did man become so totally depraved and unable to seek God or hear God? because its not in the Bible.

[@atyt11]

Well said….Calvinism brought to its logical conclusions would basically mean that the discussion between Wilson and Dr. Flowers is just God arguing with himself…. like a man with schizophrenia.👊🏼

[@tomservo51]

I've had a calvinist admit that God isn't capable of making creatures with free will

[@bravebarnabas]

Soverign LORD can't relinquish that which God, God. This includes Soverignty. ALL things work after the counsel of God's will. Free Will is NOT in the Bible. Jesus must make free a slave to sin.

[@TheApologeticDog]

@@bravebarnabas Excellent point, for God to limit His choice for LFW would be God not being Omnipotent and denying Himself which is logically impossible.

[@TheB1nary]

No you haven’t 😂

[@OkieAllDay]

What I always say to those that hold to compatibilism is - "Compatibilism is determinism with sprinkles on top"

[@JohnK557]

Exactly! It’s no less deterministic than hard determinism. It’s just putting lipstick on a pig……

[@shredhed572]

​@@JohnK557 Exactly Or, Comp. is the "silk purse" they try to make out of the "sow's ear"😅

[@JohnK557]

@@shredhed572 😂 yep!

[@quinnpeterson2716]

You guys are being silly. Compatiblism is the belief that determinism is compatible with freewill. It inevitably entails determinism. Otherwise it would just be libertarian freewill haha. It’s the same with how people in these comments always say “exhaustive divine determinism.” Determinism is the belief that everything is determined..if the determinations were not exhaustive it wouldn’t be determinism.

[@AndrewKeifer]

@@JohnK557 "Pay no attention to the logical conclusions behind the curtain."

[@canadiankewldude]

God Bless and thank you.

[@MarkRidlen]

A closed system where only one possible outcome exists for a given set of inputs is fundamentally different than a closed systems where all actions are determined at all times. It's like the difference between playing a video game and watching a movie.

[@briansonof]

Indeed, Flowers called God's hypothetical infinite perfect meticulous foreknowledge "not determinism" but it is quite literally determinism. You can't divorce the two. I don't see why God is supposed to be a perfect and meticulous foreknower. What biblical support for that is present?

[@undergroundpublishing]

By what authority do you bind for knowledge with determinism? Just saying "it's quite literally determinism" does not make it so. I have foreknowledge that you are going to respond to this comment with an appeal to an authority that is not actually an authority. But that doesn't mean that I'm determining that you do.

[@JD-xz1mx]

@@undergroundpublishing Or, for another example, I have forknowledge that one day I will die. That does not mean I am forcing it to be so.

[@quinnpeterson2716]

I’ll grant that foreknowledge doesn’t logically entail determinism. But certainly foreknowledge and omnipotence does. Let’s just apply multiple attributes of God to a single situation. I’ll use a pedophile since libertarians love to use that to call God a divine rapist on Calvinism. Okay, if a man rapes a little girl, God is omniscient which means he knows about it before it even happens. He’s omnipresent which means he’s there before and during the wicked act. He’s omnipotent which means he has the power to stop it (even if you say he refuses to interfere with freewill, he could still stop the man’s heart or even make him unbearably sick before he has the chance to do it). And so it inevitably follows that He is making a conscious decision to allow this to happen since he is CHOOSING not to stop it. Now the question is what do we do with that…it appears you would rather say that it’s out of God’s hands somehow even though you’re not an open theist as far as I know. While my answer is that God has a holy and just purpose in allowing this to happen even if we don’t know what that purpose is. The best answer a libertarian has is that he allows it solely because he gave us freewill but allowing a rape simply because you have too much respect for the rapist’s freewill is not a sufficient reason. Now I know you reject compatibilism but it’s important to note that I’m not saying God is forcing this man to commit the rape… he’s simply allowing the man to do what he wants with his own freewill according to the sinful nature he has apart from God. But without this divulging into an argument about the nature of Calvinism and compatibilism I’d like to hear your own positive explanation since it’s clear based on my example that even in your system God is making a real decision to allow that specific act of evil. Does he have a reason or not? And is it just that he loves the rapist so much and has so much respect for his freewill that he refuses to save the helpless victim? Or is God just as helpless as she is in that situation? I’m truly curious what your answer is. Thank you.

[@jjphank]

Nah…. Hebrews 6:18. ..It is impossible for god to lie. 3 verses in the Bible say your name can be blotted out of the book of life, for 3 various reasons; Psalm 69:28, revelation 3:5, 22:19! Never receiving Jesus is not the only way to go to hell Says Matthew 7:21-23 ; verse 23 ‘away from me I never knew you’ does not apply to everybody, Jesus says this twice in verses 21 and 22! “Not everyone will say to me (on that day)……., yes many will say…..” If OSAS was true he would’ve said “everyone and all” instead of “not everyone and Many”! So not everyone will go to hell based on never knowing Jesus, and other verses will back this up as well! you can no longer use Matthew 7:23 to say they were never saved to begin with! Same with 2 Peter 2 “after knowing the Lord, they went back into their vomit as a dog; or back into the mud as a pig wallowing in the mud”. The word ‘knowing’ is the same word in Matthew 7:23, it’s ‘ginosko’ in the Greek- it’s a salvific relationship with Jesus! So you can lose your salvation, says this verse as well! 2 Peter 2:20 “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning!” THEY ARE ENTANGLED IN THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD…AGAIN- says this verse! Jude 12 - “twice dead”; Dead in sin, born again, dead again! And there’s many more; Revelation chapters 2 & 3 are full of ultimatums and all Jesus is focused on is our works! Revelation 2: 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place! Revelation 2:14 there are some among you….. 16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. These are just 2 and Jesus says “he who overcomes” , Overcomes is present active- future tense, and Jesus says this to all 7 churches, even the 2 good ones! You have to stay faithful to the end of your life to go to heaven! John 3:16 is he who believes, or continues to believe will have eternal life! it doesn’t say ‘believed’ past tense, you have to maintain your faith to go to heaven! The Greek word ‘believes’ is ‘Pistis’ which basically means faithfulness so faith equals faithfulness, according to the Bible! So if you have problems with this, then you have problems with the word of God, the Bible! You need to study these passages so that you can make it to heaven! If your pastor cannot answer these questions according to what I just said, then you need to leave that church!

[@marcosking3989]

Thank you for work Leighton, really helping me in my growing with Christ🙏🫶

[@JJBBUCOG]

Thanks Dr, Leighton

[@charging7]

Can anyone imagine our Lord making any of these assertions/arguments? Of course not! This subject is just muddied up gnosticism. Keep it simple folks. So simple a child could understand it..

[@TheB1nary]

It doesn’t mean truth is simple. Or simplistic. It means that the core of the truth is obtainable even by children. But there is an obvious point at which meat is introduced. Otherwise you are just the milky bar kid.

[@roddyk2655]

Accuses non-Calvinists of turning God into Zeus... goes on to correct us by describing God as Zeus... Calvinist are masters of projection...

[@Oleary_Theory]

Would you go so far as to say Wilson is describing a Hebraic-MegaZeus lol as the former Calvinist Vela articulated?

[@shredhed572]

Whats so ironic is that the "sovereignty" definition they use comes from the Greeks😅 You can't makes this stuff up. Aside from all that, the argument is apropos for calvinist propagation of"boogeyman men", which is a form emotionalism,, together with in-group dynamics and a whole host of other fallacies They are, at their core, very emotional people.😅

[@roddyk2655]

@@Oleary_Theory Hebraic Mega-Zeus precisely... 😂

[@roddyk2655]

@@shredhed572 Bro, every time I hear the whole "Hebraic Mega-Zeus" thing, all I can think about is "Clash of the Titans (1981)" Exactly and what is so frustrating about them being emotional is that they have the nerve to throw off on Pentecostals and Charismatics for being emotional... OH!!! and putting "men of God" up on a pedestal... 😒

[@peterfox7663]

@@Oleary_Theory last I saw, Vela is still a Calvinist. But not a Christian.

[@recoveringknowitall1534]

basically... "It's a Mystery" is his argument. total BS

[@NS4L1683]

I'm not a good writer, pretty novice but I can write a story with characters who I determine their decisions. That's easy. Now writing a story where I have no control over the characters decisions and they have free will to make them, that's impossible. A God who can make free thinking brings and still work his ways to determine the end times of the world is infinetly more powerful than a God who just writes a script and presses play

[@AndrewKeifer]

The Hamlet analogy perfect fits Calvinism, it just doesn't fit reality.

[@jjphank]

OSAS Hebrews 6:18. ..It is impossible for god to lie. 3 verses in the Bible say your name can be blotted out of the book of life, for 3 various reasons; Psalm 69:28, revelation 3:5, 22:19! Never receiving Jesus is not the only way to go to hell Says Matthew 7:21-23 ; verse 23 ‘away from me I never knew you’ does not apply to everybody, Jesus says this twice in verses 21 and 22! “Not everyone will say to me (on that day)……., yes many will say…..” If OSAS was true he would’ve said “everyone and all” instead of “not everyone and Many”! So not everyone will go to hell based on never knowing Jesus, and other verses will back this up as well! you can no longer use Matthew 7:23 to say they were never saved to begin with! Same with 2 Peter 2 “after knowing the Lord, they went back into their vomit as a dog; or back into the mud as a pig wallowing in the mud”. The word ‘knowing’ is the same word in Matthew 7:23, it’s ‘ginosko’ in the Greek- it’s a salvific relationship with Jesus! So you can lose your salvation, says this verse as well! 2 Peter 2:20 “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning!” THEY ARE ENTANGLED IN THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD…AGAIN- says this verse! Jude 12 - “twice dead”; Dead in sin, born again, dead again! And there’s many more; Revelation chapters 2 & 3 are full of ultimatums and all Jesus is focused on is our works! Revelation 2: 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place! Revelation 2:14 there are some among you….. 16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. These are just 2 and Jesus says “he who overcomes” , Overcomes is present active- future tense, and Jesus says this to all 7 churches, even the 2 good ones! You have to stay faithful to the end of your life to go to heaven! John 3:16 is he who believes, or continues to believe will have eternal life! it doesn’t say ‘believed’ past tense, you have to maintain your faith to go to heaven! The Greek word ‘believes’ is ‘Pistis’ which basically means faithfulness so faith equals faithfulness, according to the Bible! So if you have problems with this, then you have problems with the word of God, the Bible! You need to study these passages so that you can make it to heaven! If your pastor cannot answer these questions according to what I just said, then you need to leave that church!

[@AndrewKeifer]

@@jjphank you're less convincing when you just spam every comment on a video with this long winded explanation. People will see it and dismiss you out of hand. That said, I for one happen to agree that OSAS is false.

[@jjphank]

@@AndrewKeifer everything is proven true by the Bible, or false by the Bible! doesn’t matter how somebody gives the message ; spiritual genius’s copy and paste; so if you have any further questions about the Bible, let me know ! Jealousy is a sin, Do more Bible reading. : Eat mor mete !!

[@AndrewKeifer]

@@jjphank _"doesn’t matter how somebody gives the message"_ Please explain this statement in light of 1 Cor 9:19-23. Thanks.

[@jjphank]

@@AndrewKeifer “It doesn’t matter how somebody gives the message “ concerning talking to you because my Message was addressed to you , & because if you’re gonna be a smarty-pants, I can be a smarty-pants back! Which is what is happening here, so if you’re offended, that means you’re a junior Christian ? Is that what you’re trying to say? Any other Bible questions?

[@ThePreacherman9]

This is just vain philosophy man wisdom warned against in 1 Corinthians 1-3 Calvinist are just gnostic greeks

[@JD-xz1mx]

I've been corresponding both on his website and with him via email on and off for several years now. In a published letter, I asked for him to show me where his most convincing argument was for determinism. He cited one of his books and so, I read it. The entire argument hinged ultimately around one or two sentences in the entire book wherein he tries to address the counterargument that God, being timeless, is capable of both preordaining and allowing free choice. His attack of this view boiled town to, and this is entirely from memory it is absolutely not an accurate direct quote "If we say God is looking forward in time and seeing out choices, and merely noting who chooses Him and who doesn't in His preordination, then it doesn't seem like preordination, it seems like God is reacting to our choices." Well I can understand how some people might struggle with the idea of existing outside of time, but "it doesn't seem like" is an extremely unconvincing basis upon which to build doctrine for a major influential church movement. Big fan of Wilson's. He's just wrong on this one.

[@nathancjarrett]

I'm with you brother. I love Doug's s way of explaining things and I think mostly he is an advocate of 'Mere Christianity'. I was glad to see Leighton was not joining on the anti Wilson dog pile that started a couple of weeks back.

[@martytu20]

This post eloquently shows how determinists and open theists are “strange bedfellows”. They both conflate certainty with necessity in that foreknowledge=causation.

[@johnknight3529]

"The entire argument hinged ultimately around one or two sentences in the entire book wherein he tries to address the counterargument that God, being timeless, is capable of both preordaining and allowing free choice." Where in the Book does it say God is "timeless". That idea itself seems to me to be based on an "it seems like" of sorts. I might say; "it seems like" is an extremely unconvincing (to me) basis upon which to build any church doctrine. (I suggest that God does exist in time, and the whole Book testifies to that, from "the beginning, to "the end times" ; )

[@quinnpeterson2716]

⁠@@martytu20 leighton flowers literally backed open theists on their view just to attempt to dunk on Calvinists. Libertarians are one logical step away from open theism. I can prove that to you if you just try to answer my question in an example. I’ll give you my answer to it as well. All you have to do is apply God’s attributes to any situation. We’ll use the example of a pedophile since libertarians like to use that to refute Calvinists.. okay, if he rapes a little girl, God is omniscient which means he knows about it before it even happens. He’s omnipresent which means he’s there before and during the wicked act. He’s omnipotent which means he has the power to stop it (even if you say he refuses to interfere with freewill, he could still stop the man’s heart or even make him unbearably sick before he has the chance to do it). And so it inevitably follows that He is making a conscious decision to allow this to happen since he is CHOOSING not to stop it. Now the question is what do we do with that…it appears you guys would rather say that it’s out of God’s hands somehow even though you just made it clear that you’re not an open theist. While my answer is that God has a Holy and just purpose in allowing this to happen even if we don’t know what that purpose is. The best answer a libertarian has is that he allows it solely because he gave us freewill but allowing a rape simply because you have too much respect for the rapist’s freewill is not a sufficient reason. Now I know you reject compatibilism but it’s important to note that I’m not saying God is forcing this man to commit the rape… he’s simply allowing the man to do what he wants with his own freewill according to the sinful nature he has apart from God. But without this divulging into an argument about the nature of Calvinism and compatibilism I’d like to hear your own positive explanation since it’s clear based on my example that even in your system God is making a real decision to allow that specific act of evil. Does he have a reason or not? And is it just that he loves the rapist so much and has so much respect for his freewill that he refuses to save the helpless victim? Or is God just as helpless as she is in that situation? I’m truly curious what your answer is.

[@TheMaskedBaptist]

"It doesn't seem like" Doug cites enough properly-interpreted Scripture to make his case convincing. Sorry, Doug.

[@onesavedvoice]

Thanks for this critique.

[@richardthenryvideos]

6:00 that's a really good point. If God is determining all things then even the quran, the book of mormon, and all the writings of the Hindus and Buddhists are all in fact divinely inspired by God as well and thus profitable for teaching and reproof for correction and training and righteousness. Except of course no calvinist or any Christian for that matter at least any serious Christian would even remotely say that let alone think it

[@Christopher-rp3xd]

Im still wondering how calvinists deal with the thought of being removed from the book of life. I’d assume that only elected people (in the Calvinistic view) could be in the book of life. If that’s true then the elected could be removed from the book of life or they would have to say even unelected are included in the book of life. In order to be removed one must first be added.

[@bobbyadkins6983]

Which proves eternal security is a false teaching.

[@shredhed572]

It must mean the Book was only a tentative list - subject to change.😅

[@grizz4489]

Is there a particular verse you have in mind in regards to your comment about being removed from the book of life ?

[@bobbyadkins6983]

@@grizz4489 Revelation 3:1-5 [1]And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. [2]Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. [3]Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. [4]Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. [5]He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Jesus was talking to a backslidden church warning them to repent.

[@lightofathousand]

You can't be "removed from the Book of Life" under Calvinism because if you don't end up in the Book of Life, you were never in it in the first place. Your status as elect or reprobate was determined before the foundation of the world and is not subject to change. You're either there or you're not, and if you're not, you never were.

[@EnHacore1]

Great explanation, thank you Dr Flowers. When will the Christian determinists stop promoting this error? Have they no understanding of the nonsense they are promoting?

[@jjphank]

OSAS Hebrews 6:18. ..It is impossible for god to lie. 3 verses in the Bible say your name can be blotted out of the book of life, for 3 various reasons; Psalm 69:28, revelation 3:5, 22:19! Never receiving Jesus is not the only way to go to hell Says Matthew 7:21-23 ; verse 23 ‘away from me I never knew you’ does not apply to everybody, Jesus says this twice in verses 21 and 22! “Not everyone will say to me (on that day)……., yes many will say…..” If OSAS was true he would’ve said “everyone and all” instead of “not everyone and Many”! So not everyone will go to hell based on never knowing Jesus, and other verses will back this up as well! you can no longer use Matthew 7:23 to say they were never saved to begin with! Same with 2 Peter 2 “after knowing the Lord, they went back into their vomit as a dog; or back into the mud as a pig wallowing in the mud”. The word ‘knowing’ is the same word in Matthew 7:23, it’s ‘ginosko’ in the Greek- it’s a salvific relationship with Jesus! So you can lose your salvation, says this verse as well! 2 Peter 2:20 “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning!” THEY ARE ENTANGLED IN THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD…AGAIN- says this verse! Jude 12 - “twice dead”; Dead in sin, born again, dead again! And there’s many more; Revelation chapters 2 & 3 are full of ultimatums and all Jesus is focused on is our works! Revelation 2: 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place! Revelation 2:14 there are some among you….. 16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. These are just 2 and Jesus says “he who overcomes” , Overcomes is present active- future tense, and Jesus says this to all 7 churches, even the 2 good ones! You have to stay faithful to the end of your life to go to heaven! John 3:16 is he who believes, or continues to believe will have eternal life! it doesn’t say ‘believed’ past tense, you have to maintain your faith to go to heaven! The Greek word ‘believes’ is ‘Pistis’ which basically means faithfulness so faith equals faithfulness, according to the Bible! So if you have problems with this, then you have problems with the word of God, the Bible! You need to study these passages so that you can make it to heaven! If your pastor cannot answer these questions according to what I just said, then you need to leave that church!

[@yeshuaneitheristheresalvat8018]

Correction please. You have completely left the whole context of the Hebrews verse out. That verse is speaking about loss of reward for OSAS BY JESUS SAINTS. THE REST OF YOUR INTERPRETATION. Your Greek definitions are also isolated to only one definition of the word, when they often have more than one definition, and it is THE CONTEXT THAT DETERMINES THIS!" AND THAT IS THAT YOU MISSED IN JOHN 3 WITH BELIEVES! THEREFORE YOUR INTERPRETAION IS BASED ON THE INCORRECT OUT OF CONTEXT HEBREWS VERSE AS WELL AS JOHN YOU DO NOT HAVE PEACE WITH GID, ROMANS 5:1. THAT IS JUSTIFICATION TO LIFE! YOU LIVE IN CONSTANT FEAR. YOU HAVE NOT WHAT CHRIST GIVES TO ONE HE SAVED ETERNALLY (OSAS IN, BY AND THROUGH HIM), A NEW SMALL "s" Spirit of ADOPTION WHEREBY CALLING FATHER "DADDY." JESUS IS A LIAR, FRAUD, FAILURE, DECEIVER, SINNER, AND NOT GOD IF HE DOES NOT "SAVE TO THE UTTERMOST THOSE THAT COME TO HIM BY FAITH." AND HE WOULD BE THE SAME IF HE HAS NOT "HE HAS PERFECTED FOREVER (FOREVER, FOREVER, PERFECTED ALREADY PAST TENSE) THOSE THAT ARE BEING SANCTIFIED." AND HE WOULD BE THE SAME IF HE LIED WHEN HE SAID, " JOHN 5:24 "HE THAT HERE'S MY WORD, AND BELIEVES ON HIM THAT SENT ME HAS, (ALREADY HAS) ETERNAL LIFE WHICH IS ETERNAL, HAS CHRIST) AND (NOW HERE WHAT JESUS SAYS TO YOU, AND BELIEVE HIM OR YOU CALL HIM A LIAR, AND ALL OF THE ABOVE WICKED THINGS, FOR THAT IS THE RESULT OF YOUR SYSTEM) YOU WILL NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, COME INTO CONDEMNATION, BUT HAS, HAS, HAS, HAS, HAS, PASSED (PAST TENSE ) FROM DEATH INTO LIFE." Where does He promise us that He will move you back from life in Himself, back into a state death where He brought a lost soul out of! He does not for HE "SAVES TO THE UTTERMOST THOSE THAT COME TO HIM BY FAITH, AND HAS ALREADY PERFECTED FOREVER..."!!!!!!! "I NEVER KNEW YOU WAS JUST THAT. TRULY THEY WERE NEVER SAVED. ALWAYS A DOG AND PIG. "THEY WENT OUT FROM US BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT (NEVER, NEVER, NEVER ONCE) OF US. I NEVER KNEW YOU. *******NOT, I ONCE DID BUT NOW I DON'T, BUT NEVER ONCE DUD! FOR IF THEY WERE OF US, THEY WOULD HAVE REMAINED. BUT NOW THEY (THEY HAVE, NOT CHRIST) MADE THEMSELVES MANIFEST THAT THEY WERE NOT (NEVER, NEVER, NEVER ONCE) OF US. I do not think you have ever seen yourself in the Lord's estimation. That is, as helpless and "CONDEMNED ALREADY JOHN 3) AND THEN CAME TO JESUS FOR HIM TO SAVE YOU. FOR WHEN HE DOES, HE MAKES A PERSON KNOW, KNOW, KNOW IT, 1ST JOHN 5. YOU ARE CONFUSING Sanctification OF ONE SAVED OSAS BY LORD JESUS, WITH SALVATION. WHERE DOES LORD JESUS TEACH US THAT HE WILL TAKE US FROM BEING BORN AGAIN TO BEING UNBORN! FROM HAVING A NEW SMALL "s" John 3, to removing that new small "s" spirit. From removing the new "spirit of adoption where we literally call Father "DADDY", out of us ! Never! Salvation is only of Jesus! Sanctification is of both Christ and the saint! Where does He promise to have one He saved from BEING BORN OF INCORRUPTABLE SEED AND PUTTING THEM BACK TO CORRUPTABLE SEED! TO BEING PUT BACK INTO AN UNREGENERATE STATE, TO GOING BACK TO THIRSTING FOREVER, HUNGERING FOREVER, AND LYING BY GOING AGAINST HIS OWN POWER IN SAVING FOREVER, TO REMOVING THE HOLY SPIRIT OF WHICH HE SAID WILL BE WITH YOU AND IN YOU FOREVER! WHERE HE ASKS YOU! AND GOING FROM NEVER COMING INTO JUDGEMENT TO PUTTING A SOUL BACK INTO THAT STATE OF BEING UNDER JUDGEMENT AGAIN. YOU ARE LITERALLY BACK LOADING HIS GOOD NEWS AND MAKING YOURSELF PART SAVIOUR! YOU ARE CONFUSION SANCTIFICATION WITH SALVATION. YOUR TEXTS ARE ALL (AND YOU HAVE MADE YOUR WHOLE DISSERTATION GLARINGLY APPARENT) FUNDAMENTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT! YOU DO NOT DO IT PURPOSELY I BELIEVE, BUT HAVE GREAT ZEAL, AS SAUL OF TARSUS DID, ONLY WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE, NOT RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH. SEE THAT ONLY JESUS CAN MAKE YOU KNOW YOUR ETERNAL SECURITY BY AND IN AND THROUGH HIMSELF, AND YOUR JOY WILL BE FULL. HE LOVES YOU, AND IF YOU TRULY HAVE ONLY BELIEVED ON Him, and not Him and yourself, then perfect love will cast out all you fear. For fear has torment. And he that fears has not been made perfect in the love (AGAPE') OF GOD." WE LOVE BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US. I PRAISE MY KING JESUS FOREVER, BECAUSE HE HAS ASSURED ME HE SAVED ME (OSAS) FOREVER, ONLY, ONLY, ONLY IN AND BY AND THROUGH HIMSELF! SUPERNATURALLY! PRAISE YOU MASTER JESUS FOR YOUR EVERLASTING LOVE, WHEN YOU SAVE, YOU SAVE FOREVER, AND ARE INFINITELY GRACIOUS AND COMFORTING IN MAKING ME KNOW IT!

[@jjphank]

@@yeshuaneitheristheresalvat8018 Look, I got 13 verses & 11 verses You didn’t address, you have 0 verses mentioned in your diatribe! so Jesus died on the cross, so we could do Whatever we wanna do? no, that’s what Heaven is for Americans Have it backwards! right now, we’re supposed to serve the lord, With all our heart, soul, mind and strength and you’ll be blessed when you do but it is a narrow pathway, and you’ll go through many hardships to inherit the kingdom of God Says acts 14:22! Luke 13:24 strive to enter the Narroway, Many Will try to & not be able to! OSAS teaches, That you can turn your back on God and gleefully, run back into the world, the same place Jesus called you from. There; you’ll waste your time doing worldly useless things 24/7, all the while fighting the same sinful Temptations You once were under; The same Temptations, that Jesus died for; that, if not Conquered once again, will REALLY send you into Hell, since You are not looking to serve God! The Bible says if you love the world, the love of the father is not in you , it also says God will not tempt us with evil, So therefore, God and his word would not say go back into the world with your time, but to spend time, knowing & serving God! Once saved always saved is a satanic lie. It makes God The author of confusion And Disorder, and schizophrenia! 613 old Testament Commandments & 0 in the new testament? No, there’s 1050 New Testament Commandments , google it. Kent Hovind knows about science, but he’s a junior Bible teacher who doesn’t know about the 30+ verses, That teach against once saved always saved ! First John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

[@JesusProtects]

​@@jjphankdude, enough. We know, ok? Stay on topic. If you lose faith you lose your salvation, simple, now go back to soteriology.

[@jjphank]

@@JesusProtects I guess you’re not familiar with and you need to look at the provide acronym for provisionism! 1 is eternal security and 1 of them alludes to hell not being eternal ! What’s up with the ambiguity with that? Hell, of course, is eternal; Sin against eternal, God, you get eternal punishment! Starting with Genesis 2:17 proving death is a continuous state !

[@Telkor]

Under Calvinism, God *IS* outside the circle causing Smith to push down Jones.

[@nathancjarrett]

The Author:Character analogy is flawed because it starts with what we know is a determined system and imposes that presupposition on our reality. It only works if we presume determinism to be true.

[@tannerfrancisco8759]

Everything in Calvinism depends on accepting a false presupposition. Every major aspect of their doctrine first came from gnostic, plutonic, Aristotelian, or stoic philosophy and was then forced upon the Bible. They are idolaters.

[@nathancjarrett]

@@tannerfrancisco8759 Sorry but this whole thing where Christians call any believer with different doctrinal stances or other views idolators is something that we need to stop doing. People can be wrong without serving false gods. Most Calvinists are trying to know serve and obey Jesus. And many of them are merely in a system because the first person to tell them about Jesus was a Reformed teacher. They believe in Jesus and believe they should listen to their pastor. Those are good things. Hopefully they will see a more accurate view of God in their studies some day. Are some of them prideful and creating idols of their teachers or doctrines? Sure, we all do that to a degree. As the Spirit works in our lives we hopefully outgrow those childish ways of thinking.

[@atyt11]

Great job Leighton, as usual, Calvinists think that the more word salad, the stronger their argument. Just because God controls the realm, that controls, the realm that controls the realm that controls the realm doesn’t mean he’s ultimately not responsible… put him back as many realms as you want, and he still controls the outcome. Smack a billiard ball into another billiard ball into five more, and the last one shoots off the table and smashes your buddy in the face , is it the balls in between fault or he’s gonna come after you?

[@BloodBoughtMinistries]

It's soo dumb to think that God must cause our actions for Him to know what we will do. Calvinists have a lesser view of God due to removing His Godly attributes. What makes God God is that He is God and not a human nor limited to human attributes.

[@quinnpeterson2716]

I’m glad you brought up God’s attributes. Let’s apply his attributes to a situation. We’ll use the example of a pedophile since libertarians love to bring that up to try to refute Calvinism. So if a man rapes a little girl, God is omniscient which means he knows about it before it even happens. He’s omnipresent which means he’s there before and during the wicked act. He’s omnipotent which means he has the power to stop it (even if you say he refuses to interfere with freewill, he could still stop the man’s heart or even make him unbearably sick before he has the chance to do it). And so it inevitably follows that He is making a conscious decision to allow this to happen since he is CHOOSING not to stop it. Now the question is what do we do with that…it appears you would rather say that it’s out of God’s hands somehow even though you’re not an open theist as far as I know. While my answer is that God has a Holy and just purpose in allowing this to happen even if we don’t know what that purpose is. The best answer a libertarian has is that he allows it solely because he gave us freewill but allowing a rape simply because you have too much respect for the rapist’s freewill is not a sufficient reason. Now I know you reject compatibilism since you obviously reject determinism but it’s important to note that I’m not saying God is forcing this man to commit the rape… he’s simply allowing the man to do what he wants with his own freewill according to the sinful nature he has apart from God. But without this divulging into an argument about the nature of Calvinism and compatibilism I’d like to hear your own positive explanation since it’s clear based on my example that even in your system God is making a real decision to allow that specific act of evil. Does he have a reason or not? And is it just that he loves the rapist so much and has so much respect for his freewill that he refuses to save the helpless victim? Or is God just as helpless as she is in that situation? I’m truly curious what your answer is. Thank you.

[@AndrewKeifer]

Why do determinists appeal to divine "allowance" or "permission" as if they adhere to our view and not their own? They seem not to understand that 3.2 of the confessions renders the eternal decree purely causative, making God the author of all things that occur.

[@billlythekid5780]

⁠​⁠@@quinnpeterson2716 Basically, to remain logically consistent, you believe God WANTS the rape to occur. Literally, in the sense that the action itself PLEASES Him. You deny that this makes God the author of the evil, but you can’t actually explain why or how: the best you can do it throw reason out the window and say “MYSTERY!” As you point out, God chooses to allow the event. It is not “out of His control”; there is still mystery as to how God can ALLOW the evil, yet this question is much easier to explain, “allowing” vs. “causing”. You believe God, logically, causes evil. I believe He allows evil, and uses it. He maintains Holiness by not being the origination of the evil choice. The choice for a man to rape did not first originate within God. Though God gives that man a beating heart and working lungs to carry out the evil, the evil man is an agent of the devil, ultimately being USED by God to bring forth good and glory for those whom love Him. God uses depraved acts sovereignly for His purposes and glory. God doesn’t sovereignly purpose depraved acts for His glory. There’s a difference. It is using vs causing. God is, within your view, the primary mover and causation of evil, though you can’t explain it. Now, you could argue that by allowing, God causes: this is your confusion? It may appear that is the case; allowing a set event to resultantly occur is fundamentally different than occurring to cause an event’s result.

[@quinnpeterson2716]

It’s called compatibilism and my reformed baptist confession and the WCF clearly states that God is not the author of sin. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass (Rom 9:15, 18; 11:33; Eph 1:11; Heb 6:17); yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin (James 1:13, 17; 1 John 1:5), nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established (Prov 16:33; Mat 17:12; John 19:11; Acts 2:23; 4:27-28). You’re just reading it looking for the parts that you can build a strawman out of. Its really not helpful. Im not going to try to tell you what you believe. I know what I believe and what the majority of Calvinists believe with me. So how bout just take my word for it and interact with me so we can have a real discussion. I specifically laid out a scenario that both of our systems have to deal with. So let’s just see which system does so better. Given that scenario and assuming that you’re not a heretic and that you affirm God’s attributes, why don’t you answer my question? Or should I just assume that you believe God stands by with full authority to stop that action and chooses not to just because he loves the rapist’s freewill more than he cares about the little girl’s suffering?

[@AndrewKeifer]

@@quinnpeterson2716 3.1 on it's own isn't a problem. However, when you combine it with 3.2, you have God decreeing all things that occur, but not because He saw it as future or as what would happen upon all supposed conditions. That means the decree isn't based on foreknowledge. This logically eliminates permission because you can't permit a thing without first having knowledge of it. I'm always amazed when Calvinists say that the confessions state that God is not the author of sin. With apologies for any offense, that comes of as if they didn't bother to investigate the truth of those statements, sort of like people who read the newspaper and say, "They can't print it if it isn't true." You said that your answer would be that God allowed it for a good and holy purpose, well that's our answer too, only we see it as being more consistent with our view than it is with yours for the above cited reasons.

[@brentbeauford16]

What is amazing is that Doug doesn’t understand Hamlet is 100% Shakespeare, period! Then Doug thinks making Shakespeare God solves the problem therefore God can write everyone’s life and action yet they be responsible for it and not God , huh? As R C Sproul says What’s wrong with you people? What a minute RC is one of them. I am set for the defense of God and the Gospel.

[@AndrewKeifer]

I would say that one reason, among several, that the analogy fails because the characters are not coauthoring the events in the play.

[@charlestonjames]

In the deterministic view, the pot can't repent, can't be enabled to repent, and doesn't need to repent. The pot is ALWAYS 100% in obedience with the will of the potter. It can't be any other way. Obeying the potter's will is not sin. Calvinists take the analogy too far in one way, but neglect the obvious implications in another way.

[@icilahmb]

It is beyond my comprehension how men choose their philosophy to upend Gods Word. Colossians 2:8 NKJV Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. Matthew 15:7-9 NKJV Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: [8] 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. [9] And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' " Ephesians 4:14 NKJV that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 1 John 5:9 NKJV If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. Calvinism in a nutshell is a deception at a higher degree than JW, Mormons etc. Why? JW’s and Mormons are easily refuted, Calvinism is a Mans Philosophy inner woven in Gods Word to appear to be part of Gods Word.

[@kinusganyani8694]

Any one seethe James White Christmas video?

[@TheMaskedBaptist]

What Doug did, I'm pretty sure, was use the Calvinist system to try to make this case, instead of using Scripture in their proper context. What I find more interesting is that the confessions constantly evolved and weren't standardized. By the way, Leighton cited @ 10:48 from the 1646 Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 3.

[@brentonstanfield5198]

In what way do you think the confessions evolved on this topic? All Scripture is interpreted though some kind of interpretive lens.

[@TheMaskedBaptist]

@@brentonstanfield5198 Hi. Thanks. Sure, I agree. You may not agree with my assessment of how the multiple confessions are regarded, but it seems like the pastors at the church I serve in constantly refine their views, re-interpret and re-apply self-sufficient Scripture through the updated confessions. This is dizzying.

[@TheMaskedBaptist]

@@brentonstanfield5198, for an example... The earliest Westminster Confession of 1646 goes into how God is not the author of evil and that men willfully are. Fine. But then, later confessions update the theodicy to suit a "better" systematic. WHAT happened to Sola Scriptura?

[@TheMaskedBaptist]

@@brentonstanfield5198, with so many confession updates, I can just about prove the Protestant church ended up with a doctrine like Double Predestination, a higher form of Calvinism.

[@brentonstanfield5198]

@@TheMaskedBaptist - I’m not sure thinking through the implications of scripture more deeply is a denial of Sola Scriptura. The confessions are attempts to articulate what we find in scripture. But on another note, on God’s authorship of evil, the Westminster Confession has always affirmed that God is not the author of evil in the sense (a) that He ever intends evil and (b) He is never the direct or immediate cause of evil. Rather, since God is always by nature the cause of good by His presence and activity, evil occurs only by virtue of the lack of God’s presence or activity. Hence, why men are depraved until they receive or are worked on by His Spirit. It is the LACK of that work of the Spirit that causes evil in men. It is an indirect or passive causation. Double predestination might be possible to establish, but not EQUAL ULTIMACY, ie the idea that God determines evil and good in the same way.

[@controlclerk]

25:06 Right after talking about how you're about exegesis, you show a clear misunderstanding of grammar. The clay wasn't spoiled. It was the vessel. "That he was making of clay" is a prepositional phrase about the vessel. If the clay was spoiled, how could he use it to make a different vessel? That's basic grammar.

[@davidsteinart]

I really wish you guys would put something together and have a debate or a discussion online

[@julienstevenson3112]

You should interact with Dr. James Dolezal next. He's a huge fan of Aquinas and uses philosophy to argue for a number of things, including determinism

[@minniemim8573]

That is a poor argument. Just because Smith is larger than the Jones and pushes Jones around does not take away freedom Jones has. He can always freely use his intellect to figure out a way to stop the bullying. Smith only takes freedom if Jones all allows it. That is not a good argument for Sovereignty.

[@KoT-YT]

If God exists both inside and outside of time (as creator of time and matter), He could look at any point in time (past, present or future) in a similar way that we might look at something on a timeline of events, except with much more clarity.

[@AndrewKeifer]

In agreement with you, as I like to say, God exists _irrespective of time._ I think it's a function of His omnipresence. He's both inside and outside of time and can view any event from any perspective He wishes. Time, space and matter are just another trinitarian echo much like land, sea, air; liquid, solid, gas; x, y, z; blue, red, yellow... Romans 1:20.

[@sheilasmith7779]

What happened to rules of evidence that are in scripture? Calvinists ignore the factual events, and imposes their own beliefs. Doug: Paul and God are real entities. Shakespeare is a real author, an actual person. Hamlet is not. We have to be stupid to agree with Doug's analogy.

[@primeobjective5469]

Calvinism: We are ALL characters in a divine book 📖. Calvinists are just characters who can metaphorically see 👀 the divine Writer✍️, the divine ink, & the divine words written on every page. While the divine writer has written that YOU 🫵 reject His Son ✝️, the divine writer commands that YOU 🫵 receive Him, & has written that YOU 🫵 be burned 🔥 forever for FULFILLING His divine script, by which no one can do differently.

[@matmorkinsti]

Four fingers pointing back at ya.

[@quinnpeterson2716]

Your idea of inability in the reformed view is off. You’re conflating moral inability with physical inability. When we say humans are incapable of choosing God apart from Christ what we mean is, we have the choice in front of us and nothing holding us back except our own depraved hearts that love our sin. Imagine putting hitler on trial and asking why he did it only for him to respond, “I couldn’t help it, I love killing Jews too much to stop.” That doesn’t remove the blameworthiness, if anything it increases it. When humans stand before the Judge of the universe, the only excuse we’ll have is, “I couldn’t help it, I love my sin too much to bow to you willingly.”

[@primeobjective5469]

@@quinnpeterson2716 -- "You're conflating moral inability with physical inability." Where? You're seeing things that don't exist.

[@AndrewKeifer]

@@primeobjective5469 never mind the fact that this supposed moral inability prevents a person from physically confessing Christ... When that argument fails, just find another link to add to the chain.

[@primeobjective5469]

@AndrewKeifer Either nonsense like that or "You just dont understand Calvinism" seem to be the typical replies. Never do they ever actually consider the argument in front of them, but that is another story.

[@dissidentleathermonster]

It’s telling that he has to go outside scripture and into logic in order to explain Calvinism. There is no explanation for Calvinism within scripture.

[@cecilspurlockjr.9421]

Just more ad hoc struggling and failing to try to make determinism seem biblical . If they would just let go of scholarship and replace it with what scripture actually says wilson and his type could correct for a change . Maybe .

[@fredmiller6166]

Excellent!!

[@HoytRoberson]

Calvinism makes itself irrelevant to everyone's practical lives.

[@shredhed572]

So true. Calvies say it's one way, yet live another

[@quinnpeterson2716]

So you guys never pray for God to save someone?

[@HoytRoberson]

@@quinnpeterson2716 the question is, why would a Calvinist? The Elect is an already closed group. Your prayer in that direction is entirely irrelevant.

[@TheMaskedBaptist]

I listened to this video at least five times. And I began to think outside Wilson's box, lol. Which brings God *more glory*, creating robots whom act purely from His will or free moral agents whom must decide how to conform to Scripture?

[@controlclerk]

If you don't like the "author" example, what about Hebrews 12:2 or 2:10?

[@klaudiacarolinemaianeves5466]

It is divine determinism and somehow ere gonna be blamed for doing things we were told to do!

[@KyleKringle]

So paraphrasing, "the analogy works because no one focuses on giving God proper glory, only man's, even though God far greater than Shakespeare." Well, the assumption in the analogy is that Shakespeare is a genius and has full control. There's no need to defend God's glory in this case. Trick questions. That's how Calvinism spreads, trick questions and piety bait.

[@gerritkalkman4384]

I think that what may well be overlooked in this debate, is that God's ways are far beyond man's comprehension. The difference between heaven and earth. We can speculate, yet our logic can only go so far. Try to understand the law of gravity, or how electricity works. And these are only creations ; let alone trying to understand God.

[@carrierobillard6410]

Great Video Leighton!

[@bobthrasher8226]

It would be interesting if a pseudo-Shakespeare did author a Doug and WLC into the play and carry the discussion to its logical conclusion and explore the "vertigo" that set in.

[@coreylapinas1000]

12:02 that is literally Yorick. However Calvinism is still wrong even though metafiction exists.

[@scottthong9274]

Biggest baddest Zeus? You mean like Tyler Vela, apostate but still Calvinist, describes the God of the Old Testament?

[@anthonym.7653]

Doug is entertaining but a lot of his theology is bonkers.

[@daltonbrasier5491]

Other than calvanism, what is bonkers?

[@TheMaskedBaptist]

He tried real hard... 🙂

[@MrBowser2012]

I love Doug Wilson, but I can’t agree with him on this.

[@daltonbrasier5491]

Luckily he doesn't talk about calvanism on his KZbin channel anymore lol

[@alomax92]

Wilson teaches another gospel and therefore is a heretic but okay...

[@RR-ue4im]

❤❤❤

[@CoranceLChandler]

The God as author analogy is the one I subscribe to. I think it is so close to the way the world actually is it is almost not even an analogy. While of course I disagree with your conclusion, brother, I do greatly appreciate both your addressing the topic and the spirit in which you've done so.

[@tabazlover]

So you do agree with a god who authors every evil thing in this world and brings them to fruition so that he can be glorified. Then, what's the purpose of your life? How do you find happiness? Is it genuine or programmed into you? So, I guess you or your thoughts, even opinions do not matter in your world. That's sad.

[@Jamie-Russell-CME]

I don't know how anyone can be a Determinist at this point

[@DamonNomad82]

90% of Determinists are doing it because they like living with learned helplessness and only Determinism will let them stay there. The other 10% like ruling over and manipulating the other 90% by keeping them in learned helplessness...

[@tannerfrancisco8759]

Because they either have a religious demon and are deceived and delusional, unable to see God's Truth because they are spiritually blinded. I've had Calvinist literally incapable of reading what the Bible actually says. I've had Catholics quote "scripture" that literally doesn't even have any of the words they said in the verse. Demons will make people's eyes see different words. And/Or because they don't actually believe the Bible and don't care to.

[@quickattackfilms7923]

The Hamlet analogy is exactly what’s wrong with Determinism. It makes us identical with God in the same way Hamlet is identical with Shakespeare. With EDD, where does God end and where do I begin? Where does Shakespeare stop and where does Hamlet start? Because all we do is purely what the author made us do so does that not make us equal with him?… in a literal sense? We would both be mere manifestations of the mind the “Author.”

[@brentonstanfield5198]

Just as in any story, there are some characters in which the author has put himself, usually the protagonist, and that represent the author’s views and character most closely. Meanwhile, there are others there to represent what the author himself opposes. Accordingly, even though all characters in a story are the product of the mind of the author, they are not all in the same sense “of the author”. So it is in reality. God has poured Himself into those who truly represent Him here.

[@HoytRoberson]

God being outside of time is purely Pagan Greek theory and didn't match the narrative.

[@leepretorius4869]

Have you heard an explanation of what the difference is of the unique authorship of scripture versus all other things ordained?

[@Soteriology101]

Yes. “You don’t understand Calvinism.” 😆

[@quinnpeterson2716]

@soteriology101 Leighton, I assume we would agree on God’s eternal attributes so please answer me this. You see, you don’t get away from the problem of evil by holding to a non-determinist view. In fact the problem gets worse. All you have to do is apply God’s attributes to any situation. We’ll use the example non-Calvinists love to use of a pedophile.. if he rapes a little girl, God is omniscient which means he knows about it before it even happens. He’s omnipresent which means he’s there before and during the wicked act. He’s omnipotent which means he has the power to stop it (even if you say he refuses to interfere with freewill, he could still stop the man’s heart or even make him unbearably sick before he has the chance to do it). And so it inevitably follows that He is making a conscious decision to allow this to happen since he is CHOOSING not to stop it. Now the question is what do we do with that…it appears you would rather say that it’s out of God’s hands somehow even though you’re not an open theist as far as I know. While my answer is that God has a Holy and just purpose in allowing this to happen even if we don’t know what that purpose is. The best answer a libertarian has is that he allows it solely because he gave us freewill but allowing a rape simply because you have too much respect for the rapist’s freewill is not a sufficient reason. Now I know you reject compatibilism but it’s important to note that I’m not saying God is forcing this man to commit the rape… he’s simply allowing the man to do what he wants with his own freewill according to the sinful nature he has apart from God. But without this divulging into an argument about the nature of Calvinism and compatibilism I’d like to hear your own positive explanation since it’s clear based on my example that even in your system God is making a real decision to allow that specific act of evil. Does he have a reason or not? And is it just that he loves the rapist so much and has so much respect for his freewill that he refuses to save the helpless victim? Or is God just as helpless as the victim is in that situation? I’m truly curious what your answer is. Thank you.

[@leepretorius4869]

@@quinnpeterson2716 would you agree that God himself puts himself in union with the elect without their will/consent?

[@quinnpeterson2716]

@@leepretorius4869 I gave a specific example that both systems need to answer for. So why don’t we just both give our answers to the question and see which one makes more sense. After that I’ll gladly answer any questions you have. Because right now it just seems like you guys are too afraid to answer the question so you jump in to save your teacher and then change the subject hoping nobody will have to answer it at all.

[@leepretorius4869]

@@quinnpeterson2716 I would just say that the Calvinist presentation or God is like the rapist in your example - he forces union with himself by overpowering the human will.

[@Rightlydividing-wx1xb]

Doug needs to actually read the Bible. Read the Hebrew and Greek too if he doesn't trust the English. If he was honest with himself he would begin in Genesis and immediately begin refuting Calvinism's 2 foundational doctrines, 2 points of 9- not just 5 called TULIP, 1) their definition of Sovereign 2) their definition of Predeterminism. It beggars belief that Calvinism/reformed doctrine exists at all. They have deceived countless believers and unsaved people, especially those coming out of Christian Cults and the occult.

[@Declared-righteous]

I’m confused by Leighton’s actual position about God’s role regarding all things that come to pass. Does he not believe that God allows evil to come upon the world? Because if God allows something then in what way is that thing not ordained by God?

[@Laugical]

When a parent brings a child into the world, they know that that child will eventually die. They do not want the child to die, but they know it will happen and bring the child into the world nonetheless. And yet we can still say they love their child and want them to live in spite of allowing that. The parents did not decree that the child would die or even want the child to die, but they did something they knew would result in their child dying. If we can understand this with parents, then it should be similar for God and us- He knows what will happen and allows it to because He values our freedom, but that doesn’t mean He ordained or wanted everything that happens.

[@Declared-righteous]

@@Laugical My struggle is that I don’t want to fall into the pit of deism. In think that God interacts with His creation and He is omnipotent and omniscient. Therefore, in some way He “ordained” things that come to pass. I think “sanctioned” would be a better word. Conveying the idea of allowing both good and bad things to occur.

[@jeffreybomba]

It is very simple. If Paul was preaching determinism he would have written 2Tim 2 to read, “Therefore, if GOD cleanses ANYONE from these things.” Unfortunately, Calvinists just decide to read/understand that passage in opposition to what it flat out states.

[@dominiclapinta8537]

Smith isn't free to push Jones because he is taller. He is able to in an easier manner. Somebody having more power does not cancel out a person's ability to choose.

[@steveobrien3673]

They have a responsibility to make the analogy not insane if they intend for it to be something they offer to help people that currently think the belief is insane. I’d hazard that exactly zero people have been assisted in appreciating the merits of determinism because of this analogy. Why time is invested in putting this analogy out there is beyond me. While I’m not an advocate of Christopher Hitchens worldview, there is something instructive in his observation that an argument with no evidence can be dismissed with no evidence.

[@shredhed572]

Much of calvinist preaching and teaching is aimed at keeping their sheep (not to mention turning christians) rather than evangelizing the lost. That's why calvinism is dying, again

[@gabrielbridges9709]

If Gods condition for salvation is impartial and sufficient for everyone then what about all the counties who had no gospel at all. Is Gods condition of salvation still impartial and sufficient for them to save themselves arbitrarily with no context of the gospel? Our is the another condition of salvation outside the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ for those who are born in a context where this is no gospel? Provisonism is a joke.

[@kevinsBiblicaldiscussions]

Good video Leighton 👍

[@jjphank]

OSAS Hebrews 6:18. ..It is impossible for god to lie. 3 verses in the Bible say your name can be blotted out of the book of life, for 3 various reasons; Psalm 69:28, revelation 3:5, 22:19! Never receiving Jesus is not the only way to go to hell Says Matthew 7:21-23 ; verse 23 ‘away from me I never knew you’ does not apply to everybody, Jesus says this twice in verses 21 and 22! “Not everyone will say to me (on that day)……., yes many will say…..” If OSAS was true he would’ve said “everyone and all” instead of “not everyone and Many”! So not everyone will go to hell based on never knowing Jesus, and other verses will back this up as well! you can no longer use Matthew 7:23 to say they were never saved to begin with! Same with 2 Peter 2 “after knowing the Lord, they went back into their vomit as a dog; or back into the mud as a pig wallowing in the mud”. The word ‘knowing’ is the same word in Matthew 7:23, it’s ‘ginosko’ in the Greek- it’s a salvific relationship with Jesus! So you can lose your salvation, says this verse as well! 2 Peter 2:20 “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning!” THEY ARE ENTANGLED IN THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD…AGAIN- says this verse! Jude 12 - “twice dead”; Dead in sin, born again, dead again! And there’s many more; Revelation chapters 2 & 3 are full of ultimatums and all Jesus is focused on is our works! Revelation 2: 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place! Revelation 2:14 there are some among you….. 16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. These are just 2 and Jesus says “he who overcomes” , Overcomes is present active- future tense, and Jesus says this to all 7 churches, even the 2 good ones! You have to stay faithful to the end of your life to go to heaven! John 3:16 is he who believes, or continues to believe will have eternal life! it doesn’t say ‘believed’ past tense, you have to maintain your faith to go to heaven! The Greek word ‘believes’ is ‘Pistis’ which basically means faithfulness so faith equals faithfulness, according to the Bible! So if you have problems with this, then you have problems with the word of God, the Bible! You need to study these passages so that you can make it to heaven! If your pastor cannot answer these questions according to what I just said, then you need to leave that church!

[@kevinsBiblicaldiscussions]

@@jjphank everyones name is in the book of Life. People that don't come to faith have their name removed

[@jjphank]

@@kevinsBiblicaldiscussions you’re wrong about revelation 3:5, & 22:19 their blotted out for different reasons! Revelation 3 is your spit out of the body of Christ for being lukewarm does that mean you’re going to heaven or are you no longer part of the church, which is the body of Christ? You’re no longer part of the church ! Address the other 12 verses that I mentioned about losing your salvation and there’s more in the Bible than what I said !

[@kevinsBiblicaldiscussions]

@@jjphank using Revelation 3:5 to say that Christians names can be blotted out is commiting the negative inference fallacy

[@jjphank]

@@kevinsBiblicaldiscussions there’s two other cross reference verses, that say your name can be blotted out psalm 69:28, revelation, 22:15 and why would revelation 3:5 say your name would not be blotted out if it couldn’t ? That doesn’t make any sense! so just like all the other ultimatums of revelation two and three this is one more ultimatum out of about seven or so ultimatums that Jesus is serious ,he’s not beating around the bush! “I’ll remove your lampstand“, “I’ll fight with them with the sword of my mouth“ Jesus is hard-core about works in Revelation two and three; to the seven churches. The first thing out of his mouth is “I know your works“ and then he says seven times “he who overcomes“ present-future tense so it’s not “overcame” past tense , so even the two faithful churches have to be faithful to the end of their lives to go to heaven. Matthew 24: 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. And the three parables in Matthew 25 prove that it’s based on what you do whether you make it into heaven or not ! Faith truly without works is dead; that’s a trustworthy statement. !

[@yeshuaneitheristheresalvat8018]

It is very sad to see that us former Gentiles that Christ saved still have the remnants of our DUMB, FAITHLESS GENTILE WAYS OF "THE GENTILES SEEK KNOWLEDGE" IN OUR COVERTED STATE, AND STILL USE THIS IN TRYING TO FIGURE OUT THE NATURE OF OUR GOD!

[@HoytRoberson]

Jeremiah 18: Just keep reading!

[@EBRoyJr]

This is what happens when intellectuals try to explain the bible...confusion. Even Peter had a hard time understanding what Paul wrote. The gospel is simple, not understandable by only PhDs.

[@Pablo9989-lj7pm]

Sorry, but Doug’s argument is idiotic. Can’t we assume that we all worship The Supernatural, Eternal, Uncreated, Creator God! I absolutely am NOT a Calvinist, But love my brothers and sisters in Christ. Leighton always expresses that well! I need to stop, before I type something that is not WWJD…

[@charlescoonce9209]

This comment has been scripted, by the author, to agree that the Shakespeare analogy and fully deterministic outcomes of this theology are incongruent with the Scriptures and the Script of the Author, Who before the annals of the Scriptdom allowed all actors to have equal opportunity to hear and act on the Script and It’s Hero, who also is a part of the Author, And yet there are not three Eternals, but one Eternal, just as there are not three Uncreated or three Infinites, but one Uncreated and one Infinite, Scripted. This message has been brought to you by the Author of the script.

[@johnknight3529]

I quibble with Leighton's suggestion that God Creates "something from nothing." (The universe we inhabit is composed entirely of energy (according to scientific analysis), and matter is energy in an extremely dense (and orderly) form. Hense the conversion of just a small amount of matter into energy, makes a very big boom ; ) God is (I believe) all powerful, and (I believe) He made the universe out of His own energy. (Not nothing)

[@alomax92]

Does Wilson ever use scripture? Arguing from philosophy doesn't align with someone who supposedly holds to sola scriptura.

[@gerritkalkman4384]

I hope you realize that the kind of Calvinism on display here is hyper Calvinism. Most Calvinists give equal weight to man's responsibility in his/her salvation.

[@r.rodriguez4991]

Calvinism would be goofy if it wasn't so disgusting.

[@christophersnedeker]

Jesus is God entering the system.

[@johnknight3529]

God cannot be "outside" the bubble of reality, if said bubble is "inside" God. That argument is (to me) a DENIAL of the opening statement of the Bible; "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." (I suggest that our imaginations are the "bubbles" this man is really talking about . . he is the god of his bubble ; )

[@Nyagrafalls10]

Th tickets are already sold out for the debate 😭😭😭😭 how do we get on the waitlist?

[@daleogilvie3576]

The deterministic God would be more George RR Martin than Shakespeare. The thoughts of sin make man guilty, see Jesus on adultery, how much more so the deterministic god.

[@Sarah-vs-Hagar]

Here we go again with crap and those that follow crap. You dont touch the issue of Federal Vision and Wilson's false gospel and his push for Romanism? . I guess you are just proving they hand out apologetic certificates to anyone these days.

[@scottthong9274]

The characters in a story argument is so dumb to me. Are they children, conflating that storybook characters are really alive and have agency?

[@screwball1010]

Shakespeare is not the author of evil. Hamlet is the author.

[@lightofathousand]

God creates the universe, but is not responsible for creating evil works if God is not subject to the Law of Noncontradiction.

[@HoytRoberson]

Wilson is attempting to argue a point that those who do agree with it must agree with it and those who don't, cannot believe it. Waste of time.

[@LifeandLifeMoreAbundantly]

Doug is right.

[@DamonNomad82]

Assertion - evidence = empty words!

[@alomax92]

😂😂😂

[@labsquadmedia176]

A truer Shakespeare analogy would include actual potential audience members or theatre critics. No matter how well Shakespeare wrote Hamlet's soliloquay, unless an audience member chose to suspend their disbelief and treat Hamlet as a real person, Shakespeare could not compel the viewer to receive the play as he intended. The audience member's refusal to enter into the "truth" of the play would not diminish Shakespeare's genius or his invitation to experience the story. The cynical audience member would miss out on the enjoyment by their rejection of the "reality" of Hamlet put forth %100 by Shakespeare.

[@brentonstanfield5198]

But I think that is exactly the idea. Most of the world don’t perceive or understand the great story God is telling around them. Then go about their lives as “characters” in that story oblivious to the divine providence that is driving all of history forward. It is the work of the Spirit that draws us out of that condition and makes us, as it were, part of the audience AS WELL AS part of the performance itself. As the Spirit makes us aware of the great story God is telling, a story that reveals who God is, that we see Christ as the main protagonist of that story and we begin to see the part we play in it as well.

[@brentonstanfield5198]

@Soteriology101 w/ Dr. Leighton Flowers - At minute 5:30 in discussing the inspiration of Scripture and admit that the principle Doug is talking about is true, at least in some sense. Something can be 100% God and still be, on a different level, 100% you. In this case Scripture. Your counter argument is that “if God does this with all things then all things are just like Scripture”, eg your own book. But all of us would admit they the author of any story tends to have characters within that story that REPRESENT his views and other characters that DO NOT REPRESENT his views. For example, Hamlet as the protagonist stands in for Shakespeare… and his speech for what Shakespeare might say. Some other character, a villain like McBeth, would be a stand in for what Shakespeare would oppose. Into Hamlet, Shakespeare pours into “himself” and he is in that sense Shakespeare’s image within the story. McBeth representing the opposite. That is the same in our scenario. God has poured Himself into the world He created through all of the GOOD that is done. All good things come from Him… are from HIS CHARACTER (see James 1:17). As Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:10… he works harder, yet it is God’s grace at work in him. Those who do evil do not have God poured into them… they are meant to demonstrate what the author opposes. You are missing this further distinction.

[@brentonstanfield5198]

Also, at minute 11:00 you remark that it is interesting that Doug uses the “author” language in spite of the Westminster Confession denying God’s authorship of evil. But it’s obvious that the Confession isn’t denying that God is the author of “all things”. Rather, it is denying that God is the author of evil specifically, ie as if His intention was to bring about evil for evil sake. But God is writing a good story… a story in which evil is used for an ultimately good purpose. God is not doing anything with an evil purpose or giving, from his one character, evil to anyone. Rather, evil is a lack of His character within men.

[@cecilspurlockjr.9421]

Am I mistaken, or doesn't Wilson follow Luther the elect nation of GOD hater ? Yeah ! Just wondering and hoping he wasn't that truly blind like every other Lutheran.

[@peterfox7663]

Wilson is a hard core Reformer

[@cecilspurlockjr.9421]

@peterfox7663 Thanks Peter ! So he is blind then .

[@peterfox7663]

@@cecilspurlockjr.9421 he's not a Lutheran. He's a Presbyterian Reformed guy.

[@cecilspurlockjr.9421]

@@peterfox7663 👍 Thanks

[@casenswartz7278]

I’m a Calvinist, but I am against divine determinism. It makes me sad to see what strictly was soteriology on how a man is saved became a philosophy on how God works.

[@brentonstanfield5198]

@Soteriology101 w/ Dr. Leighton Flowers - All of the examples you gave at about minute 18:30 regarding programming, puppets, etc… applies (a) for everything in this world that we admit work deterministically (eg the movement of stars, the growing of grass, the actions of animals) and (b) even works for the writing of Scripture. Where the writers of scripture, through you admit they wrote 100% while God also wrote 100%, robots? But none of those things lose their meaning simply because they are determined. Indeed, their meaning is established because they were determined… because they each play some role in what God is doing. Determinism isn’t unlivable at all. Even you believe that cows, chickens, and eagles can live just fine as determined beings. Unless you think they so have a “libertarian free will”. Indeed, determinism is what makes the world meaningful. Just like the purposeful placement of letter after letter, word after word, sentence after sentence, and paragraph after paragraph slowly gives meaning to the story… so also, what God has decreed will happen in this world little by little brings meaning to the world God has made. The purpose of the lamb at Passover, or the rock in the wilderness that Moses broke to give water to Israel, have their meaning because of what God decided to do so to them. So it is with us, we are more meaningful than pots, robots, puppets because those are human creations that serve human purposes. We are more meaningful because God has given man a purpose… to bear His image. Not because we work indeterministically and they don’t. The amazing thing is that we are not “just characters” like Hamlet. The great miracle is that God allows us to transcend this reality… by His Spirit… so that we can also see the story and enjoy it with Him.

[@nathanhellrung9810]

The writers of scripture admitted to being like robots?

[@brentonstanfield5198]

@@nathanhellrung9810 - Leighton admitted Doug’s analogy… that the Scriptures are 100% the words of God and 100% the words of the men who wrote them. How is that different from them being robots according to Leighton’s critique. If God determined what they wrote… and determinism makes us “robots”, what is the distinction?

[@nathanhellrung9810]

@@brentonstanfield5198because they are 100% God’s words given to men to write, and men do 100% of the writing. That’s not the same as the author and actor analogy where whatever the actor does is determined by the author.

[@brentonstanfield5198]

@@nathanhellrung9810 - It’s not a dictation. Nobody holds that God “gave men words to write” that they then they had to decide “hmmm… am I going to write the words of God”. Heck, in most cases, they had no idea they were writing “God’s word”. These are their true words… but we hold, looking back, that God was working in them so that they wrote what they wrote.

[@nathanhellrung9810]

@@brentonstanfield5198wrong. I believe that these men freely wrote what they did. God didn’t cause them or determine them to write. They were faithful to God and in tune with what He wanted.

[@lightofathousand]

Once you understand that moral responsibility is independent of personal agency a lot of Calvinism makes sense.

[@littlefishbigmountain]

Moral responsibility is independent of personal agency? Can you give me an example or illustration of that?

[@lightofathousand]

@@littlefishbigmountain Theistic determinism holds that God is in direct and immediate control of every article and event in Creation. That means that the physical basis for the production of human thought in the brain are determined by God as well. So, with every thought determined by God, there is neither free will nor personal agency. Calvinism gets around the problem of assigning moral responsibility in the absence of agency by exempting God from the Law of Non-contradiction and allowing Him to maintain two mutually exclusive positions at the same time and in the same sense. I think this is an internally inconsistent doctrine, a false teaching and a perversion of the teachings of Jesus and Paul into confusion and despair. But it does have considerable appeal for some people.

[@littlefishbigmountain]

@@lightofathousand Oh, I see. That’s why I was confused. I thought you were advocating that position rather than critiquing it

[@lightofathousand]

@@littlefishbigmountain Glad we got it straightened out. I'll make more of an effort to be clear going forward.

[@littlefishbigmountain]

@@lightofathousand I think it’s just that heavy sarcasm doesn’t translate well into written form because of the lack of body/voice cues

[@naterios33]

The reformed view is being extremely mischaracterized by Dr. Flowers... You would think someone who spends most of their time anti something would want to do their best to characterize the other side correctly and refute it in a proper context.

[@joefrescoln]

Which part? The one where Dr Flowers compares God to Shakespeare? Oh... no, that was Wilson.

[@quinnpeterson2716]

@joefrescoln no he’s probably thinking of the part in every video where he conflates moral inability with physical inability. Or ignores the distinction between divine permission and manipulation. Or God’s decrees and puppet masters or any other straw-men he creates out of ignorance of the reformed doctrines.

[@naterios33]

@@quinnpeterson2716 right on! 😂

[@joefrescoln]

@@quinnpeterson2716 timestamp the strawman parts, if you would. From my online experience so far, one Calvinist's strawman is another Calvinist's accurate explanation.

[@shredhed572]

If I were to use your logic, since what I know of you is solely from your comment, should I presume you spend "most of your time" hanging out in comments on yt? Leightons involved with at least 3 ministries that I'm aware of. The others are not in any way like this channel. How many are you involved in?

[@brentonstanfield5198]

@Soteriology101 w/ Dr. Leighton Flowers - Towards the end you speak of human responsibility to turn and repent. Agreed! But didn’t Isaiah, Moses, Jeremiah, and Paul also have the responsibility to write truthfully in all things? Don’t you agree that they did so under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? Didn’t you agree at the beginning of the video that something can be 100% of God and 100% of men? Why shouldn’t we believe that this is exactly what happens when men repent? When men obey God’s commands? Why shouldn’t we believe that all of the good we do is God at work in us both to will and to do… including repenting? As GOD says in Ezekiel: Ezekiel 36:27: And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

[@nathanhellrung9810]

Why does inspiration have to mean God causing men to write things? Couldn’t it be that these were faithful men who were in tune to the voice of God and wrote freely what He wanted them to write? Same with Ezekiel 36. Cause doesn’t have to mean that God is doing the work but that these are faithful men who because of their faith are indwelled by the Spirit and are in tune with the Spirit and what the Spirit would have them to do? So when man repents it doesn’t have to be God causing them to by doing all the work. He could inspire them through truth and they desire to change their ways and repent. It’s not the same as the author and actor illustration used.

[@brentonstanfield5198]

@@nathanhellrung9810 - You miss the analogy. God isn’t “doing all the work”, he is causing THESE MEN to do the work. This isn’t just “faithful men” writing words He wanted them to write. It is GOD SPEAKING. The word of God is the voice of God. It is God breathed. As Jesus says: John 14:10: Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works.

[@brentonstanfield5198]

@@nathanhellrung9810 - See also Hebrews 11:1-2: Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. Who spoke? God spoke… through men. This is basic to the doctrine of inspiration.

[@nathanhellrung9810]

@@brentonstanfield5198in the analogy of an author of a book the people in the book are fictional and do exactly what they do not because they are being obedient to what God wants but because they are determined by the author to do so.

[@brentonstanfield5198]

@@nathanhellrung9810 - In the analogy, the lower reality (ie the fiction) DEPENDS on the one in the higher reality. In addition, the PROTAGONISTS do typically act as they do because it confirms the objective goodness of in that world.

[@kylestaack38]

Wow. Flowers always trying trying to bring philosophy to scripture and trying to always to make people believe the way he wants believe. Just because flowers can't accept these scriptures doesn't mean yall have to follow him. Member a Lil leaven works through the whole lump of dough. Amen 🙏 (Deu 4:35) 35All the peoples of the earth are counted as nothing, and He does as He pleases with the army of heaven and the peoples of the earth. There is no one who can restrain His hand or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’ ” (Pro 16:9) 9We can make our plans, but the LORD determines our steps (Pro 21:1) 1The king’s heart is like a stream of water directed by the LORD; he guides it wherever he pleases (Pro 16:33) 33The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the Lord. (Isaiah 46:9-10) 9“Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, 10Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’; Hallelujah 🙌

[@shredhed572]

Yes, God does what He pleases, for sure 1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV 1900): 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it >pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save >them that believe.< Amen😊

[@alomax92]

Hahaha...Wilson is the one arguing from philosophy...Flowers is simply showing the flaws in the philosophy

[@kylestaack38]

@@alomax92 I've heard other of his stuff. He's all over KZbin going against reformed theology. When scripture clearly teaches sovereign free grace. Even charles spurgeon said reformed theology is a nickname for biblical Christianity. Amen 🙏

[@jjphank]

OSAS Hebrews 6:18. ..It is impossible for god to lie. 3 verses in the Bible say your name can be blotted out of the book of life, for 3 various reasons; Psalm 69:28, revelation 3:5, 22:19! Never receiving Jesus is not the only way to go to hell Says Matthew 7:21-23 ; verse 23 ‘away from me I never knew you’ does not apply to everybody, Jesus says this twice in verses 21 and 22! “Not everyone will say to me (on that day)……., yes many will say…..” If OSAS was true he would’ve said “everyone and all” instead of “not everyone and Many”! So not everyone will go to hell based on never knowing Jesus, and other verses will back this up as well! you can no longer use Matthew 7:23 to say they were never saved to begin with! Same with 2 Peter 2 “after knowing the Lord, they went back into their vomit as a dog; or back into the mud as a pig wallowing in the mud”. The word ‘knowing’ is the same word in Matthew 7:23, it’s ‘ginosko’ in the Greek- it’s a salvific relationship with Jesus! So you can lose your salvation, says this verse as well! 2 Peter 2:20 “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning!” THEY ARE ENTANGLED IN THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD…AGAIN- says this verse! Jude 12 - “twice dead”; Dead in sin, born again, dead again! And there’s many more; Revelation chapters 2 & 3 are full of ultimatums and all Jesus is focused on is our works! Revelation 2: 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place! Revelation 2:14 there are some among you….. 16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. These are just 2 and Jesus says “he who overcomes” , Overcomes is present active- future tense, and Jesus says this to all 7 churches, even the 2 good ones! You have to stay faithful to the end of your life to go to heaven! John 3:16 is he who believes, or continues to believe will have eternal life! it doesn’t say ‘believed’ past tense, you have to maintain your faith to go to heaven! The Greek word ‘believes’ is ‘Pistis’ which basically means faithfulness so faith equals faithfulness, according to the Bible! So if you have problems with this, then you have problems with the word of God, the Bible! You need to study these passages so that you can make it to heaven! If your pastor cannot answer these questions according to what I just said, then you need to leave that church!

[@shredhed572]

You're misquoting Scripture Mat. 7:21 "Not everyone >that< saith to Me.." Not "Not everyone >will< say...." If you have to alter God's Word to fit your presup then your argument is worthless

[@jjphank]

@@shredhed572 You ignored the other 11 verses I mentioned? OSAS Hebrews 6:18. ..It is impossible for god to lie. 3 verses in the Bible say your name can be blotted out of the book of life, for 3 various reasons; Psalm 69:28, revelation 3:5, 22:19! Never receiving Jesus is not the only way to go to hell Says Matthew 7:21-23 ; verse 23 ‘away from me I never knew you’ does not apply to everybody, Jesus says this twice in verses 21 and 22! “Not everyone will say to me (on that day)……., yes many will say…..” If OSAS was true he would’ve said “everyone and all” instead of “not everyone and Many”! So not everyone will go to hell based on never knowing Jesus, and other verses will back this up as well! you can no longer use Matthew 7:23 to say they were never saved to begin with! Same with 2 Peter 2 “after knowing the Lord, they went back into their vomit as a dog; or back into the mud as a pig wallowing in the mud”. The word ‘knowing’ is the same word in Matthew 7:23, it’s ‘ginosko’ in the Greek- it’s a salvific relationship with Jesus! So you can lose your salvation, says this verse as well! 2 Peter 2:20 “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning!” THEY ARE ENTANGLED IN THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD…AGAIN- says this verse! Jude 12 - “twice dead”; Dead in sin, born again, dead again! And there’s many more; Revelation chapters 2 & 3 are full of ultimatums and all Jesus is focused on is our works! Revelation 2: 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place! Revelation 2:14 there are some among you….. 16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. These are just 2 and Jesus says “he who overcomes” , Overcomes is present active- future tense, and Jesus says this to all 7 churches, even the 2 good ones! You have to stay faithful to the end of your life to go to heaven! John 3:16 is he who believes, or continues to believe will have eternal life! it doesn’t say ‘believed’ past tense, you have to maintain your faith to go to heaven! The Greek word ‘believes’ is ‘Pistis’ which basically means faithfulness so faith equals faithfulness, according to the Bible! So if you have problems with this, then you have problems with the word of God, the Bible! You need to study these passages so that you can make it to heaven! If your pastor cannot answer these questions according to what I just said, then you need to leave that church!

[@grizz4489]

Rev 3:5 is a form of speech called litotes, a dramatic understatement, just like the bible uses other forms of speech,..... metaphors, hyperbole , similes ect... Rev 3:5 is saying the exact opposite of what you are claiming. Please, look into it

[@jjphank]

@@grizz4489 that’s not true - & what about revelation 22:19 and Psalm 69:28 That say your name can be blotted out of the book of life , why would God be ambiguous about eternity in hell? He wouldn’t ! Calvinists live in ambiguity because they are ambiguous about the unforgivable sin; they don’t know how to define the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit! That’s only way people go to hell is blaspheme the Holy Spirit! So what is your definition of it?

[@grizz4489]

@@jjphank First of all, i am not a calvinist. Secondly, what i wrote is absolutely true. Litotes is a form of speech. That is true. In Rev 3:5 and in Rev 2:11, litotes is used. Its a dramatic understatement, kinda like the figure of speech if someone said this " that test was no snap " or if a rich man drive by in an expensive car and someone said " that sure wasn't no poor man ". Those passages are NOT threatening being blotted out. Those passages are using dramatic understatement to make the point that those who are faithful and overcome, God is really going to recognize them !!!

[@quinnpeterson2716]

Leighton, I assume we would agree on God’s eternal attributes so please answer me this. You see, you don’t get away from the problem of evil by holding to a non-determinist view. In fact the problem gets worse. All you have to do is apply God’s attributes to any situation. We’ll use the example non-Calvinists love to use of a pedophile.. if he rapes a little girl, God is omniscient which means he knows about it before it even happens. He’s omnipresent which means he’s there before and during the wicked act. He’s omnipotent which means he has the power to stop it (even if you say he refuses to interfere with freewill, he could still stop the man’s heart or even make him unbearably sick before he has the chance to do it). And so it inevitably follows that He is making a conscious decision to allow this to happen since he is CHOOSING not to stop it. Now the question is what do we do with that…it appears you would rather say that it’s out of God’s hands somehow even though you’re not an open theist as far as I know. While my answer is that God has a Holy and just purpose in allowing this to happen even if we don’t know what that purpose is. The best answer a libertarian has is that he allows it solely because he gave us freewill but allowing a rape simply because you have too much respect for the rapist’s freewill is not a sufficient reason. Now I know you reject compatibilism but it’s important to note that I’m not saying God is forcing this man to commit the rape… he’s simply allowing the man to do what he wants with his own freewill according to the sinful nature he has apart from God. But without this divulging into an argument about the nature of Calvinism and compatibilism I’d like to hear your own positive explanation since it’s clear based on my example that even in your system God is making a real decision to allow that specific act of evil. Does he have a reason or not? And is it just that he loves the rapist so much and has so much respect for his freewill that he refuses to save the helpless victim? Or is God just as helpless as the victim is in that situation? I’m truly curious what your answer is. Thank you.

[@peterfox7663]

The Calvinist/Determinist position that God decides people will commit sin and holds them accountable for that which He determined them to do vs the rest of Christianity that holds to the idea that God allows people to make decisions for better or worse and people are held accountable for their sinful actions

[@naterios33]

@@peterfox7663 That is actually not the reformed or Calvinists position. That is a gross mischaracterization of it. There is a difference in ordaining or making something happen, and God allowing or permitting something to happen. Permission is not the same thing as holding onto puppet strings. The reformed view does not negate or say there are no secondary causes (the sinner still chooses to sin), God simply allows their actions to occur. But the Bible teaches that there are only two masters our will and desires serve; sin and death or Jesus and life. Paul makes this distinction within his writings especially in the book of Romans.

[@peterfox7663]

​@@naterios33 In hard Determinism, God meticulously determines everything that will happen. He does not "allow" anything as He is the determining agent. All actions originate from God and He is responsible for them. In soft Determinism, God determines the secondary means to ensure the primary means occur. Either way, God is the one deciding exactly what will happen, leaving nothing to the choice of men. Everything that happens is God's perfect will - there is no such thing as evil in a deterministic system as no one is the responsible agent for their actions.

[@nathanhellrung9810]

I don't see how God allowing for evil acts to happen is equal to or worse that God unchangeably decreeing and determining (causing) them to happen. God desires man to be free and was willing to "take the risk" that comes by doing so. That risk being that man will undoubtably do wrong with that freedom. But, we have to remember two things. One, the only love and relationship worth having or even possible to have requires this freedom, and second, God deals with those evil choices. Is it horrible when a person is raped? Absolutely, but a God who allows it and then judges those who freely commit the heinous act, bringing redemption for those who the act was carried out on is demonstrably better than the god who doesn't merely allow it but thinks it up in his mind and then effectually and deterministically brings it about. When someone is having evil done against them under Calvinism logically they can blame God for that evil, He literally caused it to happen by His decree. The person committing the act is less blameworthy even. To say that the two views are equal or that God allowing for sin is worse than causing it or authoring it doesn't hold up in my opinion.

[@naterios33]

I would just have to say that if you read any of the confessions/catechisms from the reformed view it clearly lays out that Calvinists or the Reformed view does not hold God to being the author of evil or human sin. He is the primary cause, but it does not once again negate or state that there aren't secondary causes or actors. God holds sinners accountable, because they still choose to sin. When arguing against a systematic theology it would be prudent to actually read it from the sources of what they believe. I have read the systematic theology of Methodism and wrote against it, because it is rejectable. But, I didn't argue against it without first going to the source itself. I would just suggest, that you may want to consider reading from their sources, because the Orthodox view of Reformed theology is not represented with what Dr. Flowers speaks against, nor what you just described. What he is speaking on and against is hyper Calvinism which R.C Sproul and others also rejected.