Deltarune's BIGGEST Problem! | The worst FLAW of Deltarune | Deltarune Theory and Discussion

[@spookydood5500]

By the way, I didn't mention the bullet hell stuff because I didn't think it really affects my point (though I kinda bring it up when discussing Tasque Manager). Ultimately, your performance in the bullet hell sections determines whether or not your health is low enough to heal.

[@waluigiisthebest2802]

I think the bullet hell systems are kinda important, as while it doesn’t change the combat system, it makes combat encounters more fun. Also, I do think the combat system will likely get more complex later in the game, as it is kept simple to ease players into it, and as Toby and the team experiment. For example, chapter 2 lets party members act, and it’s implied the element system will play a bigger role later on.

[@yuvie9588]

@@waluigiisthebest2802this is what I'm thinking about too, the fun part in deltarune combat is the bullet hell, how player interact with it, how it interact with player, the artwork, what the attack tells us about the enemies, even in the fan games are this case too, I think the combat has a bigger role in storytelling then gameplay

[@spelavidioterpro4988]

@@waluigiisthebest2802 I agree with this. Spookydood keeps complaining about the combat system but most of his complaint don’t even have anything with the system to do. It is just the enemies. I think as chapters go along it will get more advanced and we will have stuff like enemies where you first gotta S action and then use kris act and then kris + Ralsei in that specific order but if you have toriel instead of Ralsei you need to begin with kris + toriel and then do S action and then kris act.

[@stavkous4963]

it's a bullet hell, what did you expect? it's made to do such damage, and that is what makes it fun sometimes. if you got angry because you think bullet hells are hard, then it shouldn't be a problem.

[@yetan0theruser]

...but the bullet-hell segments are an integral part _OF_ the battle system. How are you going to make a video complaining about how a battle system doesn't work and ignore the part that _literally pulls it together in the first place?_

[@feelthelove3725]

Interesting video and well argued points, but I’m not convinced Deltarune is really held back by the battle system. As you point out, Undertale’s battle system had to be quirky and original to hold up the themes of the story, but with Deltarune, the game’s focus is decidedly on the relationships between the characters (which often shine through during battle) and the world-building present in each chapter + the overall mystery of the narrative.

[@gremlinqueen]

I agree with you, but there's a difference between "the combat ruins the game" and "the combat isn't as good as it could be."

[@AntiFaGoat]

The fact that this game isn't finished means we are going to be playing defense until the bitter end... I can't help but imagine Toby incorporating our defensive takes into the game now. XD

[@riolucoolshaoyo7296]

Now that I think about it, if Toby buts in and there other couple of forced violent fights it could be cool! Also I never use susie too, so this bad

[@graysonwells551]

I think the biggest sin in Chapter 2 is that if you defeat Spamton through combat, you are unable to fight Spamton NEO. Missing out on significant content is the most meaningful way the game could encourage you to NEVER use the combat system going forward, securing pacifism as the default and encouraged playstyle.

[@spookydood5500]

Wow, I actually had no idea that was a thing. Yeah, totally, that perfectly illustrates everything I'm saying. Can't attack bosses because your friend's arm breaks, can't attack enemies because you lose them forever, and apparently can't fight minibosses because you might miss out on some of the best sidequests in the game.

[@svgaming263]

In a game where you get to choose wether or not you beat up someone they should react accordingly. If you beat Spamton up why would he want your help? And also on a pacifist route if you make it to NEO you can still fight NEO without losing the pacifist status aswell as getting a unique item for fighting instead of sparing.

[@cosmicspacething3474]

If that’s the case, then there should at least be a side quest to re-unlock the Neo fight after you beat him in combat.

[@TrixyTrixter]

Yeah, Spamton should have been one of those "You cannot actually kill this one." kinds of fights.

[@AntiFaGoat]

Agreed. It would have been an extra challenge to unlocking that bonus battle in a positive playthrough while also making sense story-wise. I remember how many fakeout vids there were of Sans fights in the pacifist route, which was bolstered by the "Song That Might Play When You Fight Sans" track. If you had a chance to do a bonus, difficult battle where you and Sans both cannot die, people would still play the game. But hey, the whole point is that completionism is bad, so I get why that idea was baited.

[@ABDERAMBL]

Nice video but, Honestly I’m not persuaded that Deltarune’s battle system is a flaw of the game. You make a valid point that when comparing the ACT systems, Undertale had more thought put into each encounter. However, comparing the games as a whole, Deltarune has more dynamic options with 3 characters and the TP system. Where Deltarune doesn’t have as exploratory and puzzle solving of an act system, it has a more involved and dynamic overall battle structure. Its very possible the process of pacifying an enemy when you have 3 characters was just too much to make for *every encounter of the game* so it was instead treated as “you have options based on your TP level and character availability” with the energy that would have gone into more dynamic pacifying processes going into other parts of the game. At its core, yeah, Deltarune’s ACTing doesnt feel the same, but the bullet hell portion that really is the heart and soul of the series remains. Trade-offs were made to pursue a different vision that Deltarune’s systems better achieve.

[@glareninja]

agreed there is actual strategy in deltarune sorta. not to mention unfinished game things can change

[@thegreendragon5390]

Not gonna lie, I did appreciate the Queen battle making the Red Buster practical for the Mercy route. We pummel the Barrier, then free Berdly. That’s why I still buy the new weapons and don’t ignore attack despite going Pacifist. Toby might blindside us and make brute force the best way to peace.

[@android19willpwn]

yeah I hope that at the very least, major bosses going forward will usually have mechanics that highly encourage Fighting. The system *does* work better when you're juggling TP between healing and better attacks, but that only really matters in fights that are supposed to be challenging.

[@pedroivog.s.6870]

At least I tried and it still made it impossible to free Birdly

[@sansation4446]

Still tho, you can TOAST instead and it has the same, if not a better effect than attacking

[@android19willpwn]

​@@sansation4446you can, but it's less effective. Attacking the barrier depletes it much faster, especially with Susie.

[@saycap]

It should have been that way with the king of spades. And after the fight ralsei still treats it like a moral lesson of both fighting and sparing being necessary even if you didn’t fight him?? That whole segment was trying to convey the message that you shouldn’t be treating this game like undertale but then the guy you’re heavily alluded to having to fight just gets tired and gives up after doing nothing… the point was that BOTH Susie and ralsei were wrong but the mechanics completely contradict the narrative

[@umyum3858]

It's so rare to see an actual gameplay critique of Deltarune, so this is a welcome surprise. The only other one I know of is the video Design Frame made when chapter 1 came out. He touched on some of the same problems you did, so if you have the time I highly recommend anyone check that video out as well. Something tells me that Toby Fox isn't completely happy with his combat system either, as he's expressed in the past that it may have been a mistake to model Deltarune's combat after Undertale without also keeping what made it so important in the first place.

[@tigerbear5845]

I do think Deltarune attempts to disincentive fighting in most situations, but not all. Like, I can think of a few examples where fighting won't abort a “Pacifist Run”. 1: Fighting King can actually speed up the fight. I think it’s small and depends on the parties' damage, but it can shorten the fight. 2: This is solely off of memory but I’m pretty sure you can fight Berdly in both of his encounters. Other than snow grave this doesn’t end negatively I think. 3: The Queen boss fight. Sure, solely fighting Queen leads to Berdly breaking his arm, but you can use attacks to break Queen’s acid shield if you’re trying to free Berdly. In fact, this is what I did in my first playthrough as I didn’t realise the toast could lower the shield. (might be slower though but I’m unsure) 4 Giga Queen fight can not be beaten via Mercy. You have to fight queen in that fight. (kind of goes against the idea that Ch2 is kind of going back on Ch1 and saying “no pacifism is always the answer”… Though yah I know that fight doesn’t end successfully but scripted encounters and stuff.) 5 the secret bosses. You can fight Jevil and Spamton, and it would not abort a pacifist run. Sure, it means you’d get more offensive items that might not be as helpful if you’re going more pacifist, but as mentioned above, there are situations where fighting can be used without losing recruits and stuff. I could use other examples like the fight against Lancer and Susie (Which Ralsei does comment on possibly going easier) but I feel like my point still stands. Like, I’d say the recruit system disincentives fighting random Darkners, but it does not really disincentive fighting in all boss fights. Only some (like the queen boss fight) disincentivise fully fighting by breaking Berdly’s arm. I think Susie makes it pretty clear at the end of the King fight it’s more complicated than “pacifism is perfect in all situations.”. Sometimes you need to fight; sometimes you shouldn’t. I feel like maybe in a later chapter, there’d be maybe a fight that would have a better outcome if we did fight rather than use mercy, but that’s just speculation.

[@t-eehee7057]

Yeah, that just happens with all the bosses and minibosses. And while yeah, it doesn't change that outcome, the point still stands, it's kind of unnecessary to make an enemy completely unrecruited as soon as you defeat one, kind of takes out a bit of the "your choices don't matter" theme.

[@mastermewtwo5503]

If you don't defeat Berdley with pacifism (I believe in his 2 battles), he'll injure his arm after the Queen fight (I believe you can get away with beating up Queen, but unsure). I at least know speedruns can vary between going violent or pacifism for each fight if not going for All Recruits (which Berdley and any major/secret bosses don't count towards).

[@tigerbear5845]

@@mastermewtwo5503 This is something I already touched in my comment/the video. Berdly does break his arm if you fight Queen. However, if you do the fight mostly pacifist, but use fighting to break Queen's shields, you can defeat her without breaking his arm... that's the point I'm trying to make.

[@MoRPho151]

@@t-eehee7057 choices don't matter is already being subverted even without taking into account the battles. The trash machine influences which head you use in the machine. Recruting or not recruiting the enemies. All snowgrave. Hug or not hug Ralsei. Who you give the gift to? etc etc... In Undertale we heard: in this world is kill or be killed, and the game didn't adjust to that phrase at all. Why some think that choices don't matter must happen as we think it should, if in UT the first phrase being tossed at us in the game by "x" character is also subverted? There are multiple ways this idea of having choice or not is being explored in the game. Maybe we can't change the "big" outcome of things, but there are decisitions we can make that make the hole experience better for us and the other characters.

[@SemiHypercube]

18:59 "except if you accidentally beat them you can never get them again" I think you kinda described a Nuzlocke right there The recruit system does feel weird considering how it says that your choices don't matter, hopefully when we get to see more of the game we'll know more how that plays out

[@ninjanovaguy8289]

A game can have choices having impact but still have one ending that happens no matter what you do. For example the game quantum break has choices that affect the way the story can play out however no matter what you choose it ends the same way. So you choice can matter for other things but won't change the ending

[@stavkous4963]

toby is just trying to do something a bit different. that's all

[@insertnamehere1398]

with a nuzlocke, you can still find that pokemon in another route

[@joaocbcneto]

@@ninjanovaguy8289 im assuming that the game will always end with: The Fun gang succeeding with whatever endgame goal is presented and the soul leaving Kris, the difference is whether we do so on good terms willingly or are stopped as the villain of the game by following the weird routes. An unwinnable battle is an RPG staple and would be the perfect example of "your choices don´t matter." allowing the cast to get a leg up on the player at the end.

[@joaocbcneto]

@@PhilAndMind yeah on the other hand it could be something like Flowey s "kill or be killed" where it's a lie.

[@michaelkindt3288]

While we're talking about combat, I feel like an understandably underappreciated aspect of Deltarune is it's equipment system. It's pretty standard and simple, two slots per character where any piece of armor can fit in either slot. But where it gets interesting is the armor themselves. In chapter 1, the first piece of armor that can be a counter is the pink ribbon, which has a funny little scene that can be accessed if you equip it to Ralsei (and a different scene if you equip it to Susie instead). And then you go to the first shop, and it sells the amber cards as it's _only_ piece of armor, where the ribbon never gets sold from any shop. And the pattern continues, making it so that a significant amount of awards gotten through chests are pieces of equipment that are _never_ sold in shops, we'll still having pieces of equipment unique _only_ to shops. But after the ribbon and the card, armor will start having additional effects, starting with the shackles increase in attack, and going on to expand from there, carrying on into chapter 2. And that's not even mentioning the rewards from the secret bosses. It's all comes together to make each piece of armor feel unique _And then_ chapter 2 introduces crafting which can be used to combine lesser pieces of equipment into better ones, making it so that no piece of equipment is truly wasted in effect, and making it so that one is rewarded for collecting inferior piece of equipment beyond money you're not going to sell said armor for (or at least, I'm not) because you stole want to keep it for a completion's sake. All of this applies to weapons of course too, but since there are tow armor slots, there's a lot of room for synergy between armors alone, and they're frankly isn't enough variety between weapons yet for synergy between them and armors to be significant. But on that note, I do appreciate how the first the first couple of abilities (both attached to weapons) do nothing before they start getting to actual abilities, it's a pretty decent gag, and it can make players feel presently surprised when it starts to actually matter. It's actually a great example of how relatively simple systems can be elevated too pretty good depths through a simple matter of execution. It reminds me of the NieR Automata weapon system, to which there is endless fun to be had in figuring out the best weapon combinations. Neither are as cool and deep as the Bug Fables metal system, but there's definitely value in simplicity, especially for players who don't want to think about too many complicated nuances, weather through inexperience, dispreference, or mood. Plus, sometimes simple elegance is just neat.

[@i010001]

We're just getting side-grades and elemental defense towards the end of Chapter 2, too. Things are getting rather complex and I'm really excited to do silly things with builds

[@michaelkindt3288]

@@i010001-.-If Toby and gang can pull it off, That would be awesome. Given the rate this game's going, you could be right.

[@AwesomeDr111]

11:40 Something people dont often acknowledge/realize is that King is the only enemy in the game you can defeat by fighting with 0 consequences. If you were pacifist all of chaper 1 and fight King, you still get the pacifist ending. I hope Toby implements more enemies where fighting not only doesnt punish you, but is encouraged. After all, Ralsei and Susie mention that there might be some foes after all that you just gotta fight.

[@Chowder_T]

I agree with the point you've made about the combat. The combat/pacifism could use some work but I'm not too worried about it for two reasons. First, Toby Fox and the team seem to be aware of the issue. I can't remember which post it was but I recall him once pondering if the fight/act system works outside of Undertale. Second is that the combat has has already gone through adjustments between chapters already. Anecdotal evidence, but I got my friends to play Deltarune once. Their reaction to chapter 1 was mostly negative but when they played chapter 2 their opinion did a 180 and they enjoyed themselves. It looks like Toby and the team use each chapter as an opportunity to tweak the systems so if they can keep improving like they did from chapters 1 to 2 the combat of Deltarune will probably turn out all good by the end.

[@Anonymous_Individual]

You can also spare to fill up 5% of the mercy bar in chapter two. I like using an action I already know will fill the mercy bar completely and then using spare on the same turn. Also, the whole combat system is why I love the boss fights. You can fight king and fight queen’s acid shield. It’s nice to use red buster on both options.

[@spelavidioterpro4988]

You didn’t have to mention chapter 2 since you literally can also do it in chapter 1.

[@Anonymous_Individual]

@@spelavidioterpro4988 I’m pretty sure that there’s no percentages of mercy in chapter one. It’s either mercy or no mercy there.

[@deniktfa]

@@Anonymous_Individual there is no percentages in Chapter 1, but multi-spare is still works, JusT try to spam mercy on some random enemy

[@Anonymous_Individual]

@@deniktfa oh yeah I knew about that. Should’ve switched the orders of what I talked about in the comment lol

[@TheLoginatoR]

The reason for Deltarune's combat being like this is because it tries to be more skill-based instead of being a sort of puzzle like Undertale. This is why in Undertale, the genocide route doesn't try to give you harder puzzles to solve like the pacifist route does. It instead gives you harder fights like Undyne and Sans. There's no puzzles to solve in the genocide route because you're just taking the easy way out; fighting. So, the only logical solution is to make the game more skill demanding. The pacifist route actually has it's own purely skill based fights too. Namely, Asgore and Photoshop Flowey. The only factor for winning in these fights is your skill in surviving their attacks for long enough. I Totally get it if you prefer Undertale's more puzzle styled battles, and I also get that it's easy to see personal problems as problems that EVERYBODY has, even when that's simply not true. However, I completely disagree that there's a lack of DEPTH to Deltarune's battles. Take the example you showed with the Virovirokun duo. Using TakeCareX isn't actually the optimal option like you said. It would be better to use TakeCare on say, the first one, and use another party member to spare that same one on the same turn. Now you only have to deal with ONE of them attacking you instead of the TWO you would've dealt with had you used TakeCareX, since you don't get the luxury of being able to spare on the same turn because TakeCareX uses up all of your party members. This also gives you an opportunity to gather more TP since one of your party members is free to defend, so this even gives you more money to spend since ending battles with more TP gives you more money. This strategy is taken to it's extreme when fighting a single enemy. For example, the first Rudin encounter in chapter 1. Act in order to up it's mercy to 100%, then use Ralsei to spare it. In this situation, the opposing side doesn't even get a chance to attack ONCE, and you're free to move on without a fuss. In this situation, pacifism is actually better than violence in terms of speed. In conclusion, Skill Issue.

[@lilacpenguin5329]

after all that typing you did, I still disagree

[@JaxontheOkay]

@@lilacpenguin5329 why

[@Snt1_]

True. Its pretty interesting if you THINK about how to optimize. And skill is different (and maybe better) than puzzles

[@t-eehee7057]

"The pacifist route actually has its own purely skill-based fights too. Namely, Asgore and Photoshop Flowey." Those are neutral route fights

[@t-eehee7057]

after all that typing you did, I still disagree

[@gianni50725]

17:19 Isn't ths the exact same dilmena in pacifist? You can use _50_ TP to try and further hypnotize jevil, or you can take your chances on pirouette and try to heal. Or you can do neither, defend/heal and hope you have enough TP and health to try and hypnotize next turn. The pacifist route in this battle is objectively more interesting by the existence of pirouette whereas all violent route adds is a decision of whether or not to use rude buster.

[@craftyg9827]

Exactly! Fighting is just press fight 3 times, use RudeBuster/RedBuster if you have the TP, HealPrayer/Items if low, and using Pacify if is for some reason how you want to spare enemies.

[@freshbroski8547]

I have to agree, I’m glad there’s people mentioning this because toby is amazing and both games are amazing but it’s important to also look at the problems with something so we’re not blinded by the positives. Deltarune is a game I struggle playing multiple times because once the initial run is done there’s not really anything else todo you’ve done everything

[@maskedmanpkclysm5327]

solution for most optmizing your FUN: beat up darkners but recruit them by pacifying from tired. Ok, but fr though, secret bosses + fighting and pacifying is my favourite dynamic and gets you to use interesting builds, it is more fun than plain pacifist and less depressing than plain darkner harrasment. fighting also, at the end of Ch 2, might make you end up with an interesting build for your party members, like Kris being a sustainable TP machine for Susie, using her rude buster for a 40% cost, and Ralsei being your glass canon with the puppet scarf. Violent pacifying also is a pretty challenging way to play the game, since you have to manage how much you beat up the enemy, trying not to lose them (not really that hard) AND you don't get the HP boost from losing recruits ("you became stronger"). Also i think Deltarune's battle system is leagues better than Undertale's in many ways, having a lot more to offer, and generally more fun to play IMO. You KNOW there's also gonna be a lot more party splitting to come in the next chapters to shake things up, the first two chapters don't shy away with it, and we'll prob gonna get get at least one more lightner to play around with (maybe in horrible ways, again).

[@goatlystudio6076]

Interesting point! I find that Deltarune have more fun mecanics tho, more engaging ones. A lot of ennemies have fun mini-games (I'm thinking about the blocks guy and rabbick) where you need to do different things, where in undertale you just press a word and, yes, you need to understand the ennemy, but very often the solution was easy to find and it wasn't engaging as much as pressing Z multiple times, rearanging someone so they feel better about themselves. Tho... I understand your point and I've never thought about it that much. Great video!

[@SpamtonSlapper1997]

Yeah, I get that. I think part of the reason *why* there's even a "just do this" option is because you can't run from fights. So they just give you ways to win the respawning fights immediately. But I have noticed this too, and as a God Gamer who totally never gets hit, I've missed a ton of cool little dialog from just always using the "use this button" button. Even when it wasn't optimal, like the queen fight for example. It's way way faster to attack the barrier than it is to toast several times. I think Toby understands this and wants the depth to be there, but is relegating it to individual encounters, rather than the commonplace ones. Could literally be because of the no-run mechanic too lol. Maybe your complaints will literally be addressed by Gooster at the end of Chapter 7 when all the stats come on screen, he'll make fun of us for being boring and joke about how recruiting everyone for their dialog in castletown is just as meaningless as grinding for max level in other games because they're all literally just toys in universe and out. Never deviating from the "optimal" path despite the massive entertainment complex presented to us in the form of other options. Actually... Darkners *aren't* people, why would they have depth? 🤔 Maybe that's part of the point and narrative? Either way, I'm gonna enjoy the game a lot no matter what. Even if it's bad on purpose 👍

[@Narnes64]

I’m definitely intrigued with where Toby is taking this updated battle system because honestly I’ve felt similar. I mean it’s basically just now an equivalent to undertale’s genocide path where you just do this one repetitive action to fill/deplete a bar and then it ends. Part of me thinks it’s on purpose cause I’m one of those people that don’t think the pacifist ending will be a good ending and Snowgrave steps will be required but I think the real twist is a neutral ending being the best ending.

[@Kyumifun]

True. The imbalance in battles seems like a theme. In Undertale the pacifist route had its difficulty in a form of your low HP but it was very rewarding to achieve. The genocide and neutral routes were punishing you with a less desirable endings. Neutral guilt tripped you for killing some enemies And genocide punished you by guilt tripping you for killing everyone And also by requiring you to do a very boring grind. Deltarune takes away the cool battling feature and renders it useless most of the time (unless you fight, then pacify) And instead gives you the less gameplay-wise exciting alternative option of sparing. That way, the game urges you to try fighting and see the consequences of it.

[@turkepic3637]

Just the battle system isn't enough against the overwhelming evidence provided by something called "writing" that definitely disqualifies mental abuse as a route to the better ending. Toby created the Soulless Pacifist for heaven's sake. He isn't going to encourage murder as the better alternative.

[@Narnes64]

@@turkepic3637 tsk tsk, if you’re using writing as a counterpoint then you must have missed Ralsei’s arc in chapter 1. It’s the realization that unfortunately not every problem can be solved with a hug. Fighting is unfortunately the only solution in some situations. And besides who said we’d be killing everyone. Toby clearly wants to separate the lightners from Darkners when it comes to merch because he wants us to view the lightners as real people. If in the end we fail to save the light world because we didn’t want to kill in-universe fictional characters, then that makes us the bad guy.

[@keiyakins]

​​@@Narnes64 Noelle and Berdly are Lighteners though. Even in the view that Darkeners "aren't real", manipulating your best friend into killing an annoying classmate is *still an evil act*.

[@glareninja]

for me the battle system when i fight harder bosses for the first time, is really great. idk the attacks well so i have to practice some strategy to live longer and learn and get that first win

[@Sh4tteredS4ns]

I strongly disagree tbh, for two main reasons: 1. I personally always viewed the "bullet hell" aspect of the game's combat as the main part of the game's combat system, and I've always liked that. I find that, and the little timing minigame when you attack, to be much more interesting than what you see in standard turn-based JRPGs, because how much damage (if any) you take, how much damage you do, whether or not you get a critical hit on an opponent, whether or not the enemy attack misses, etc, it's all determined by your own skill at the game, rather than RNG, which makes you feel so much more in control of the fights compared to other games in the same genre. 2. While pacifist in this game is less puzzle-based than it was in Undertale, and requires a bit less thought, I never found it to be that big of a deal. It's not that intrusive to the rest of the gameplay. (and I say that after having put over 50 hours into the game since chapter 2 released. Idk how much time I spent on the game before than, because before it was on Steam, I had no way of measuring that. I did replay chapter 1 a bunch of times before chapter 2 released though) Also, I just wanted to say this, because you mention how the game tells you that your choices don't matter: while that is true, and the game does try to spell that out for you very heavily in chapter 1, chapter 2 repeatedly goes out of its way to contradict this, and show how your choices DO matter, between the thrash machine's designs and attacks being determined by choices you made in chapter 1, the starwalker easter egg, the introduction of the recruitment system, and of course, the Snowgrave route. I think the main point of establishing that whole "your choices don't matter" theme was just to tell us that the ending won't change no matter what we do (which, as of chapter 2, still seems to be the case. All routes have the same ending cutscene), but that doesn't mean that our choices are entirely inconsequential, and chapter 2 goes out of its way to show us how consequential our actions truly are.

[@Zekiraeth]

I also want to add that Undertale started out with Flowey telling us that "In this world it's kill or be killed", only for the game to spend the rest of the time showing us how that's not true. In Deltarune, who tells us that our choices don't matter? An unknown mysterious voice (which may or may not be distinct from the mysterious voice who had us make a vessel but that whole sequence is its own can of worms), and Susie before she has her character arc (she's clearly not in a great place at this point). These two most likely aren't exactly the most trustworthy of advisors on the nature of this world. I think Toby is doing the same thing he did in Undertale, but he's being more subtle about it because he knows we've all played Undertale, and we should be able recognize this similar setup and come to this conclusion on our own.

[@zixvirzjghamn737]

ah yes, Susie when she's about to vore Kris@@Zekiraeth

[@maxbetatron]

I think a combination of combat and act will eventually be the best recipe. Example: you have to beat up on someone to unlock other acts. Or you have to act act then attack. Etc.

[@pepearmstrong3239]

Some enemies are outright far easier and quicker to get through by just fighting and pacifying. i also like how in Queen's fight, it's far easier and faster to break her shield with attacking. I wish there are a lot more enemy mechanics that rely on using the fight option just like queen's shield in the future.

[@saycap]

This is the correct answer. For example: Stanton NEO should have had two targets- himself and his strings. He would just block your attacks on his strings if you don’t act/cast a certain way to create an opening. This is the simplest and most effective way to intertwine both and make them both useful and meaningful. I want to add additionally repeatable enemies should have a low health buffer, meaning a common HP pool value where the game either stops damage accumulation or the damage values naturally add up to just enough where the enemy has a little health left but isn’t killed, and it just feels intuitive and repeatable. I believe undertale actually had this to encourage sparing so I’m not sure why deltarune doesn’t. Also, there is a downside to fighting but none to mercy. I think acting(not casting) with a certain character should add a (1.5x? 2x?) multiplier to incoming damage to them, making sparing a harder and riskier option (as it realistically would be).

[@kross_draws]

22:13 might be the funniest rebuttal someone’s made for their own essay

[@godslaughter]

To me, it looks like this whole concept might actually play an important part later. It's possible that this has been designed this way on purpose, but we'll just have to wait and see. Maybe it's because Deltarune is not Undertale and Toby wants it to be distinct. In Undertale, the ethically correct option is to discover the world and the people in there through talking and sparing while it's usually everyone's first assumption to fight, but Deltarune, just like you've said, seems to have gone the route of pushing the pacifist narrative on you when, perhaps, that might not be the "correct" outcome in the end. Again, we have only two chapters as of now, who knows what the point of all of this might end up being (Toby knows).

[@RandomGreenFishPhone]

You can still fight with Kris and Suzie and then use Ralsei to cast pacify or Noelle's sleep mist if you want to combine the battle types and still recruit. I think that it being quickest to just fight and takes more effort to spare and recruit was a deliberate design choice, same for Undertale.

[@gremlinqueen]

A major point of this video was that it takes less effort to spare. So sparing is both easier and gives better results, so why would we ever fight?

[@RandomGreenFishPhone]

@@gremlinqueen That was a part of the video I disagreed with. In my experience you can get through a lot of battles more quickly by fighting (or a combination of fighting and pacify) compared to sparing. Not so much at first and not in every case, but I think in general it is. For example, if you start chapter 1 of Deltarune with this strategy in mind, get items and weapons focused on increasing your attack, I find it is easier towards the end. The Jevil fight seems easier to me if you attack and then you get the Devilsknife to make Suzie a lot stronger. Then in chapter 2 it is easier to defeat opponents, especially after going through the snowgrave route. One time I went through the snowgrave route up util the very end (I did not use snowgrave on Birdly) to max Kris' stats and when I fought Queen with Suzie having the Devilsknife, Ralsei with the Ragger 2, and Kris with the increased stats (I can't remeber the strongest weapon for Kris) the fight was a lot quicker if you attack.

[@thatoneenvy]

Fighting is useless if you'll just always pacify at the end. You don't get stronger. You lose 16TP for nothing.

[@gremlinqueen]

@RandomGreenFishPhone Sorry, the way you said this seemed like you misunderstood the video. I am inclined to agree with Spookydood, though. 90% of the time, I can spare everyone on my second turn and convert a bunch of TP into Dark Dollars.

[@nayd5043]

Fighting ups your stats

[@limeraldguy9784]

A reason for why the combat system doesn't really matter too much is that the main gameplay meat of Delatrune and Undertale is the bullet hell mechanic. Great video tho 👍

[@blackbloom8552]

its a good point as the bullet hell system is better than ever, but i think its still valid to criticize the weaker puzzle aspects of pacifism.Undertale was able to use both the puzzle and bullet hell aspects of the fights in tandem to create really memorable encounters and deltarune cripple its potential by only relying on the later.

[@limeraldguy9784]

@@blackbloom8552 I agree, we can only benefit from improving the battle system

[@Snt1_]

​@@blackbloom8552I dont think the pacifist in delrarune is really puzzle centric. Deltarune has generally tougher battles, and thats something that helps alot with its core gameplay, focusing on dodging instead of solving, like geno in undertale

[@xxblackkzoruaxx5971]

I personally think it’s very fun and interesting to try all different acts against every enemy, and it feels really good to figure out the optimal way to play pacifist and try them out each new playthrough.

[@NovatoEx]

I disagree with your points about the combat system. ACTs and sparing are more about experimentation and efficiency. Seeing what works best with every enemy and combination of enemies. Having an extra "useless" teammate is great to ACT and spare an enemy in the same turn. There are multiple times when being violent isnt a viable option but the most optimal option while being pacifist (minibosses because the got so much health you wont "accdentally" kill them, The King, Queen's barrier). And its not like you will be fighting the same type of enemy more than twice in a row anyway. And at worst, you can always avoid the encounters in the overworld, unlike Undertale. Even in the fights when being merciful is just spamming the strongest mercy option (Jevil and Spamton Neo), there is still a lot of depth in the fight itself (Against Jevil, you are encouraged to play safe to keep everyone alive but also risky to get a lot of tp from grazing so you can chain multiple hypnosis to make the fight faster and easier because the longer the fight goes on, the more likely you will run out of items. And agaisnt Spamton you are given the choices to activate time limited boosts to make sure you can make it through the fight and you will have to make a balance between that, snapping or taking turns to heal. The longervthe fight goes on, the more likely you are to run out of resources).

[@emidemi7211]

I actually agree with this; the recruit system really confused me in chapter 2 because although it continues the "encouraging pacifism" trend, it also decreases the depth of combat by quite a bit. Which is significant because even in Undertale, combat was pretty simple. This is why I'm REALLY excited for chapter 3 to introduce the element stuff proper; it seems like a massive boost to the gameplay's overall depth.

[@Bowser6495]

To be fair on "the world isn't always black and white..." line they do force you to fight during the GIGA Queen fight so there's that

[@TMSonicFan47]

I definitely agree that Deltarune is lacking the puzzle element of Undertale's encounters, but I wouldn't say it outright punishes you for choosing violence. I'd say that the Mercy system in Deltarune is more for completion than being required for an ending like in Undertale. Sure, you'll get the most out of the game if you do it, but you don't need to play that way to just finish the game. Also, you can still use violence to Spare enemies. That's why the sleep spells are in the game to begin with. It's just a matter of how you want to play. Heck, that's how I beat Jevil the first time.

[@captainphoton1693]

But isn't that the point. That deltarune is a hot mess of contradicting directions and emotions and stuff? Just the "your choices don't matter" and then wierd route (snow grave). It seems to be the point. As well as undertale 180 everyone at the end of each route. Like the lv and exp. Flowery being asriel. Charas eye in pacifist after a genocide. Almost all infos coming from ralsei who is omega sus. Gaster being thrown in the mix. The chess board theory that is still looking pretty good. Meaning there would be 7 secret bosses, like the 7 pawns plus you being the eight. There is a lot of wierd stuffs that convince me that that akardness is wanted and mean something. Like just sparing everyone being tidious but rewarding is kinda what happen in real life. But he spin it as really tiring repetitive and stuff. And only saving character lines and interactions as a reward. It's not for you specifically.

[@NunnyNugget]

I think there should be certain enemies added where fighting is the correct course of action. Tbh, we already have a mechanic similar to this with Queen's shield during her boss fight, where the best course of action is actually to attack it and break it faster - but the game never lets you know this is an option. I think they should add some sort of shield mechanic or something, because I think its obvious now that the game is going to go down the anti-fighting route again, and I would honestly really like it if fighting is an option. After all, in Snowgrave we know that acting or using spells isn't always an exclusively good thing anymore - why should fighting always be an exlusively bad thing?

[@sadiakhan6500]

I watched this video out of intrigue because in my opinion, deltarune's battle system was REALLY fun to me, but i realized I thought chapter 1 was fun becasue I could fight. I actually agree that the pacifist options are significantly lackluster as opposed to the fighting. For jevil and spamton where it DOESNT MATTER, they were my favouite parts of the game because real strategy was involved, and it was much more entertaining to be at average low health and try your best to weigh your options: "can i just defend survive the next attack and get kris up, or will I just heal and not progress in the battle? If I get hit, I'll die, but the pay off of taking the risk is so worth it..." It felt exhilarating to think about if you can take the risk at certain points. I thought it was super fun. But since I could still experience that, I wasnt mad about being forced into pacifism. It made me feel happy seeing the enemies happy and hey , it was fine. My actual complaint, is that when you backtrack, the enemies are still there. That is the ONE thing i have an issue with. If Toby was reading this, my advice would be to remove encounters when you backtrack, and have the enemies stay there so you can talk to them (maybe this can happen ONLY if you spare them, and they become your friends or something, and instead, in a violent route you'd have to fight them normally even if you backtrack cuz theyre NOT your friends.)

[@stavkous4963]

this video is most likely a prime example of someone who didn't have deltarune's battle system grown on them

[@saycap]

The point of the video is that most people don’t even use the battle system. It’s just a bullet dodge system.

[@chekufleet]

Personally I quite enjoy the pacifist gameplay due to the short and sweet nature of it... idk if it's just me but I needed to backtrack to recruit enemies because I manage to avoid a lot of encounters. It truly helps that Deltarune enemy encounters aren't random since I could show off my dodging of people and problems skills by running away☕

[@gamingcookiereal]

night in the woods fits the "what spookydood likes" bit perfectly if you havent played it

[@monkegaming5091]

11:40 piroutte is actually very useful and can make you skip alot of attacks

[@justice8718]

It’s more like the best acts need to require TP make you more aggressively greedy to get near the enemies. With that, the battle system will be improved.

[@jademonass2954]

i was about to start a huge rant here but i get the point you were trying to make i think it could be easily fixed by introducing actions that could only be done after others i recently played deltatraveler and the underfell bossfight was absolutely amazing, its such a fun juggle between healing/dealing damage/gaining tp i never attacked him with the attack button, it was all in the act menu (rude buster) i do agree with you later points, but the problem is still not of the system, its with the enemies, specifically the ones we have seen in c1 and c2, yes, its technically better to have enemies that you have to do different actions before being able to do others, but still dont like having longer minor enemy fights considering the really cool bosfights there might be

[@shadowofroserade]

and this, my friend, is why Jevil is the best boss in deltarune (the TP meter actually matters outside of heal prayer even in pacifist)

[@kovexplay]

While I agree that deltarune's combat has its flaws I still strongly prefer it over undertale's. It just feels more involved with the whole TP system and being able to control several characters. I understand that it doesn't exactly have that puzzle style like undertale but the encounters still feel much better to me. I gotta admit, chapter one's enemies weren't as good but it seems like things are going to improve with each chapter. Not to even mention that while the game obviously has some mandatory encounters, the enemies can often be avoided which is much less annoying than a random enemy attacking you out of nowhere Plus with the addition of the elemental system that will hopefully be utilised more in the future, it seems very promising. I adds even more depth to the combat and could make you come up with more strategies

[@marcelindasquebradas4454]

I think the main reason I never saw the fighting system as flawed is because I profoundly hate turn based combat lol. I never got to finishing games like Earthbound, for example, even though I liked the story, because I really just got bored out of my mind with the "watch numbers go up and down" battle system. Maybe that's because I played Undertale before almost any other turn-based RPG, which kinda ruined them for me, but yeah. Deltarune and Undertale's battle system appeal to me just because when I play them I actually get something; some new art, new dialogue, new jokes, new lore, not mentioning the bullet hell segments which I also enjoy. I have done a fighting run in Deltarune, to get more of the lore and have it prepared for new chapter's possible differences, and I just found it way less interesting, exactly BECAUSE battles were generally quicker, had less new dialogue and character interactions, etc. My real though with all this is the opposite actually: why even have a Fight option, if it's not going to be that important to the plot/main message (like in Undertale), and will activaly lock you out of certain parts of the game (like Spamton Neo's fight). Fights have mostly just become a method of character exposition in Deltarune, i feel (which is why most bossfights are pretty much just about waiting out, or doing the same act wherever you can), and that's why some of it, on the surface, isn't that "engaging" on a mechanical level, but is still somehow very fun and interesting when you actually play the game. I don't think it's necessarily a flaw, as much as something that will (hopefully) be better addressed later, as you say in the end of the video; but we'll see.

[@gabriel_cooper]

another possible point, maybe this is intended? kinda like the geno run is meant to be extremely boring and flawed, there's a chance the pacifist option is the worst one gameplay wise as a way to try to break people into just fighting, especially with all the talk of ''your choices don't matter'' and how that might slowly make people stop bothering to act and spare, maybe deltarune will have its own version of the ''LOVE stands for level of violence" thing. like, think about how the undertale combat would be viewed if all we had access to was the ruins and snowdin, i think people would be way harsher on it without all the narrative twists imo.

[@Sappysappster]

I think it's very interesting to see someone talk about the combat system/gameplay loop of Deltarune; as to me it seemed like the most "neglected" thing when it came to UTDR discussion people already know that UT's combat (not the ACTing the *combat*) isn't exactly the best but it's OK because that's not what the game is about; it's about the quirky interactions and the friends you make along the way as a result Yet with DR nobody talks about the combat there because...? Maybe because it doesn't have as glaring of a flaw as Undertales, but this video definitely helped me reassess my biases (that which I'm grateful for) at the end of the day like Undertale this will not make-or-break the game for 90% of people but it's still fun to talk about ^^

[@maskedmanpkclysm5327]

The combat has SO MUCH potential, the secret bosses weapons demonstrate this quite well i think

[@scantyer]

Most people don't talk about the combat because the game is more narrative focused, and i suppose most people play pacifist as a remnant of undertale.

[@lilacpenguin5329]

I'm really hoping more discussion around the combat comes up

[@Zolerian]

I did came by this problem when replaying Chapter 2. In short, battling is _way_ more interesting, but it isn't what the game encourages you to do. In Undertale it is the opposite, acting is more interesting that battling instead, and in that game's case, the most interesting way of playing is actually what the game encourages you to do. When I played Chapter 2 with just battling it was way more fun, but also more bittersweet seeing that in the end the castle town was more empty and so on. It's like if the game punishes you for having more fun. The same bittersweet feeling of seeing castle town empty came after a weird/alternate route playthrough, but at least that route has the argument of having a lot of unique and extremely interesting interaction when traversing it. Instead, when battling in the "normal route" you don't get any of those type of interactions, more so, it feels as if you are _missing_ interaction, even though it is pretty fun to play with all of the strategy it requires compared to not fighting.

[@Chmmr]

Something that's worth noting-- i don't have a source for this, but i definitely remember hearing at some point that acting and pacifism werent always planned for deltarune and that it was brought on late in development just because it was an important and loved component of undertale. that's part of why a lot of bosses (especially those in ch2 like berdly coaster, queen and spamton neo) have their acts just be 'press this to fill meter'. because they were simple to make and essentially serve the same idea as fighting to drain hp but with the pacifist coat of paint

[@smolglitch]

I agree especially on the uselessness of certain spells depending on your route, or just in general. The special spamton neo spells for example, they were so quirky i never found myself using them when ralsei couldve spent the turn doing something better like acting or healing. Feels like Deltarune has an identity crisis between leaning into the more traditional rpg grind type of game or being mostly story focus with the combat there for the... well, gameplay. A great example of this i think is the ability to craft. Deltarune isn't a game where you can go back and grind to get multiple items or armors. The fact crafting exists at all makes it feel like Deltarune wants to be a more typical rpg but that's just not what we're getting. The only use i see for it is purely story based, like crafting the twisted sword, which i think should be done in a more appropriate place than the town bakery anyway... Regardless though, the combat isn't a turn off for me, largely due to the combat not being the focus or reason i love deltarune so much, and that's perfectly fine. But improvements would still be very welcome

[@basileusbasil4041]

I've seen some worrying comments about being "just a narrative game" and making a poor combat system or not making players engage with a combat system is "fine". This included conversations about other games as well and isn't entirely focused on UT/DR, but I can't let this sentiment stand. These are GAMES, not Visual Novels, books, movies, or plays; is the systems are boring and not engaging that is a fundamental flaw with the game. Games are supposed to be ludonarrative experiences, the ludic (play) aspects are just as important as the narrative aspects, UT/DR are revolutionary experiences because they create ludonarrative harmony and are exploring how ludonarratives can be told. IF the gameplay system do not engage the player and make them feel something and that ties into the narrative; then that system is a failure and a flaw of the game design. The gameplay loops of both UT and DR are saved by the bullet hell aspects and the character writing. These engage you long enough to walk through the narrative, but with prolonged exposure to the combACT system becoming tedious and dull. In UT this is somewhat forgivable since prolonged contact is supposed to generate boredom and lead deeper into the game's narrative. It seems somewhat similar with the "your choices don't matter" in DR, but how basic the ACTing can be is a flaw of the game. I've always thought there are games with better main gameplay loops, UT/DR's is aggressively meh.

[@thejester4130]

You make some good points and i have to admit after like the 4th playthrough of deltarune i did feel some of the repetitiveness a little. I even remember thinking of something that i wish this game did that might help, in chapter 2, when susie goes to noelle's room, she uses her rude buster to cut the werewires wires. I remember when i saw that i wished it was a thibg you could do in battle, maybe the wire have their own health bar and beating the wire spares the enemy or some enemies with unique ways to spare them like that would give some more choice in the combat. Like have some enemy with armour to break or maybe a hurt enemy requires you to heal it (with ralsei or items), eh but im only spitballing

[@Akksjxjwsxmosiwwojskso]

Good idea ,I might use that in a beta build for my fan game!

[@mintsmooth860]

real good video, honestly i think deltarune would benefit immensely from a "flee" option in battles and its kinda dumb that it doesnt exist yet. i found myself getting annoyed when backtracking and running into the same boring enemies over and over again

[@DrackieOfficial]

I have 3 saves prepared, a pacifist save, a violent save, and also a snowgrave save

[@667link5]

I love this video, and many of these things have been on my mind for a very long time. I totally agree with a lot of your points, and feel it's an aspect totally looked over by the majority of the community. It feels very gratifying to hear my vague thoughts explained in a practical manner, with direct examples, reasoning, and comparisons put behind it. Even the introduction of the s-actions being tied to the cap'n cakes battle feels like a predominant symbol/representation of its flawed nature. However, I do feel like it's been overlooked for a good reason. The combat between chapter one and two has been changed dramatically, and there has been no sign that toby will stop making improvements as time goes on. The individual actions of the characters ended up being some of the most memorable parts of chapter one; such as Susie's free ham sandwich day, and ralsies abysmal flirting. Including more elements like these into the s-actions instead of inadvertently through the dual acts like chapter one did will imbue much more meaning into the s-actions, further emphasizing the already great character study stuff imbued into the battles themselves. Furthermore, I feel like you undersold the amount of minigame aspects in the battles, especially throughout the second chapter. Things like trapping the mouses, spamming A's for viruvirucun's ad attacks, swatches color changes, spamtons deal conversation maze, mouses tracking you, the difficult teacup rides, rouxl's battleship, breaking wires, and not to forget that the final battle was literally punchout: I feel like the level of minigames and unique play areas is consistently varied and placed throughout the world; the number will only increase as time goes on. Even though this is a bit of a cop out, all of this could definitely be in favor for a larger meta narrative, especially if something like Molly's device theory is true. I won't rely on that idea for this argument, but it is something worth thinking about. Finally, in the latest newsletter that dropped on Halloween, toby said that his friend who play tested chapter three said that the combat was too hard, and then he promptly decided to ignore that feedback. While this definitely could be interpreted as difficult bullet patterns, we also need to consider the changes in ui, acting, tp, and fighting that could very well contribute to the overall difficulty of the battles. In fact, as it is now, I would argue that the battles could never be too difficult regardless of patterns due to the sheer numbers of items, spells, characters, and effectiveness of party-acting. In my opinion, that could only be achieved through a overhaul, a re-introduction into complex theme/ direct character study puzzles as seen in undertale, or some serious gimmicks that extensively change the way the game works. Regardless of all that, this was an excellent video, with good script reading, editing, pacing, and writing. Stuff like this is extremely difficult to make, and it's people like you who make content like this who display the best in our community. Thank you for this video, and I hope to see more in the future.

[@blackbloom8552]

One solution to increase the depth of pacifism gameplay might be to include enemies that wont accept mercy, or behave in ways that endangers others, forcing the player to weave in attacks to knock them out or make them flee while still trying to spare everyone else. I would also say that its a shame that the pacifist solution to the queen fight is so obvious and easy as berdly losing his arm is a really interesting consequence for choosing violence and most players arent going to experience it. It could have probably been a very weighty development if most players got that ending and only realise later that there was a way to save berdly and they just didn't look hard enough, yet they now have to keep playing and see the consequences of what happened.

[@StarLightShadows]

Exactly. The way the end of Chapter 1 portrays the Fight vs Spare situation it really seems like Toby's planning at some point in the future to do something like this. King can't be the only genuine asshole in the game.

[@Aurailus]

Personally, I think the fact that most players don't experience Berdly losing his arm adds a lot to the encounter. I think where Toby's games really shine are when they have a hidden events, like the genocide route, snowgrave route, fun values, etc, which end up getting spread around like school rumours when people first begin to experience them. Regardless of whether a player personally experiences Berdly losing his arm, they *will* hear about it on the internet if they're remotely invested, which will just make the game even more mysterious and magical as they wonder what they might have had to do to get that outcome. I think these sorts of events also play a lot into how well Toby's games do on KZbin, as all the secret events are excellent fodder for theorists, which I personally love, as that sort of content has been keeping me well fed between Deltarune chapters.

[@dsdude8441]

18:57 I think it's more like what you described, but if you faint a pokemon after catching one, it causes the one you caught to be released.

[@jazzy_burrito]

I don't know why people think that fighting Queen hurts Berdly's arm. Look, on my first play through, I bumped into his bumper car, and didn't hit queen at all, instead focusing on cutting Berdly loose. However, his arm still got burnt up. I though this was completely normal and happened no matter what (especially since you cant attack wired-up Berdly), since just as in Chapter 1 with fighting Susie and Lancer, hurting them makes no difference. But when I came to KZbin playthroughs, general discussions, and, most notably, heard and watched the snowgrave route (which, for the record, I would have never found myself), I instead realised that the second fight you have with Berdly basically determines his fate. Cause here's the thing. I'm am a person of justice and self-defense to an extent. And I was pretty sick of that damned bird getting in the way, so while I spared his supporters, I attacked Berdly instead of sparing him, especially when I noticed he was attacking Noelle. In doing this, I triggered a weakening of his state, so regardless of the fact that I loosened him, he still busted his arm. Remember how the save point after that fight mentions something along the lines of the scent of fried chicken nuggets in the air? I guess that was foreshadowing. (Though even if you spare him, the save point ... uh... "says" the same thing, so I dunno about that one) ... After writing all that, I just realised that I suppose that if you don't fight him, but you fight Queen at the the place of loosening his wires, he still busts his arm cause the wire wasn't loose enough. I suppose that explains why the entire point of this comment exists. Huh. Well, I could continue and talk about how I believe that deltarune is more concerned about your specific individual choices, considering almost no one is actually killed, rather then a bigger picture route like UNDERTALE , especially since your choices in one dark world don't really count against or for you in different dark world, but that's for another video's comment section I guess.

[@aligacrystenia]

Using your example of the Tasqs, yeah, you could SoftVoiceX, but you can just as easily SoftVoice with just Kris and spare one of the enemies in the same turn. If there's only two of them, that's actually the better play, because you can spare both in two turns either way, but you can avoid having to dodge attacks from two at a time. I found that most of the battles were like that.

[@MagnaPawn]

"The gameplay wasn't the focus of Omori. It was the story" yeah and I see people being turned off by Omori simply because its gameplay is almost as shallow as games being made in 1990 You know you've failed as a game engine when Toby Fox's "flawed" combat system for Deltarune is still more fun than anything RPGMaker can pump out.

[@AnimaidanFrames]

Not to be that guy but imo i feel like you're really underselling Omori's combat, stacking damage multipliers was one of my favorite parts of playing through that, and what ultimately encouraged me to play through the hikkikomori route which is almost entirely headspace fights only. Omori's combat was a highlight for me basically, obviously you're entitled to your own opinion tho, not trying to be like "why didn't you have fun!!!!!11!!!!!!" lol

[@shaianna.1222]

Omori's combat would probably shine if the game was a little harder. There's 3 overlapping systems (emotion, skills, follow-ups) that can lead to lots of unique battle strategies, but the game is easy enough that you don't really need to worry about them. The dynamic strength/weakness system with the emotions is super fun and unique imo, but in most battles the enemy doesn't take advantage of that, maybe outside of the Sweetheart fight and some of the hikikomori bosses. I get what you're saying, but Omori absolutely has an in-depth combat system; I would say it's more in-depth than Deltarune. It's just unfortunate that for most of Omori, the player ends up doing the same thing for every battle due to the game generally being easy and not requiring much from the player. Which is okay, since it's more of a narrative game anyway, it's just some missed potential

[@hi-i-am-atan]

dragon quest keeps you up at night, huh

[@Naggyed]

OneShot has the best battle combat system

[@determinationincarnation]

your Tp meter actually gives you more money at the end of the fight, so its not just for casting spells

[@commenteroftruth9790]

I enjoy the combat for the bullet patterns, music, unique magic usage, etc. Not for how many buttons I need to press to make the menu do numbers for me. It is a narrative based game with lots of deeper interconnected lore. The way you view the game is hilarious.

[@saycap]

Wow you’re so smart and cool it’s not like this game is a parody of jrpgs which are centered around the combat or anything Also every time I see someone saying they play for the ‘deep lore’ it’s always some idiot who doesn’t actually understand the games story but just parrots that ad nauseam because other people said there’s “””deep”” “””lore”””” when it’s really just surface level shit. But yeah sure buddy nobody cares that you don’t care.

[@commenteroftruth9790]

@@saycap You are about as dull as your comment implies. You are the surface level shit lol.

[@irrelevantonyt]

I think this is a great video, howrver i didagrew with most of it. I do understand your perpective though, and i want to make a couppe of my own points yo adress your criticisms. 1. Avout the narrative reasoning - Yes, Chapter 1 said your choices don't matter, however I think this is slowly and intentionally being subverted, much through the attack system. The game is telling you that it doesn't matter if you kill or mercy, so it's seeing hoe you act. Chapter 1 makes a big point out of thr harm Susie is doing by attacking momsters and the ending shows that whther you kill or not is affective the other characters, just not YOU. I think the point of the game, and how it is building, is to question if you will choose to spare or attack even when being told that it does not matter, if you are shown the damage it causes. 2. About the gameplay - Yeah, i do think taking the puzzle element out of it that Undertale has does suck. Needing to learn the enemies was fun. However, Deltarune wants to be a different style of game, it's definitely qiming at a more traditional RPG combat system. You use TP you accumulate and you use your party members to decide when it's worth ACTing or healing, what ACTs you have the resources to do. On top of this, little minigames are added so it isn't totally momontinous. However, this really isn't the main point of the combat, which is probably why it feels underdeveloped - the bullet hell is. The bullet hell is where the vast majority of an encounter takes place and is where most of the enjoyment and character work lies, I think that's what Toby wants to focus on

[@fruitloops2058]

Yeah this has been on my mind for a while, i hope that in future chapters there will be more of a push for fighting but not forcing you to kill, that or sparing becomes more puzzle solving like Undertale. (Or more minigames.)

[@t-eehee7057]

Also, something that could undermine the ACT system is the element system that is still hidden in the files. We could see a little in Spamton's battle when equipping the mannequin, which makes you stronger against him. I feel that it could really make combat even more entertaining since even our teammates are supposed to have elements. But I mostly agree with your take on the current ACTing we have, there really needs to be more variation in regards to what can you do to spare and nerf some of the ACTs that make battles a bit pointless (like the TakeCareX which I feel that making every enemy 50% spared is a bit too much). I just hope since these are the first chapters, we only get more difficult each time.

[@OdaSwifteye]

22:34 I care, because I actually like RPGs and consider a good combat system to be an essential part of what makes a good RPG. I think the deltarune is bad at being an RPG. It has a fun story and an amazing soundtrack, but it's a pitiful gameplay experience. The first thing people do when they make fan games of undertale and deltarune is that they overclock the combat because really, everyone knows the combat in those games are one dimensional and boring, and we all just want to be challenged hence why the Genocide Undyne fight, the Sans fight, Omega Flowey Fight, and the Asgore fights are so memorable, those are the few times you're actually expected to do a lot to win a fight. It's why Jevil is so much better than the spamtom fights because Jevil forces you to do a lot of literal juggling in order to maintain pressure and not get wiped. Deltarune's biggest problem is that it's a rpg that sucks to play, that's kind of a big problem.

[@marsgreekgod]

there is some use for valence in pacifist playthroughs. it's the fastest way to break queens shield at least.

[@TheNotSoGreat1]

Really wasn’t expecting to agree that my favourite game is flawed in one of its key mechanics. Looking at it now, I can definitely see ways the game can improve the whole pacifist experience. Great job

[@creakingskull7008]

I just wish the Spare% bar wasn't a thing at all. It makes pacifist feel like just wailing at another healthbar. It's also one of the many reasons why Jevil is a lot harder and feels a lot more tense than Spamton

[@yaheg_maybe]

this video actually covers a lot of stuff that has been hovering around in my mind lately, which is cool because you don't tend to see these parts of deltarune discussed often I really do wonder if / how the theme of pacifism not always being the correct answer will be revisited in future chapters...

[@coleminer8847]

You can spare an enemy the same turn you fill their mercy For example, with tasques, you can soft voice and have susie spare to instantly spare a tasque before the bullet phase

[@sadbread7261]

I hope the weird route embraces the fight mechanics, and that more acts are minigames.

[@swdfulord]

As someone who loves this game (and undertale) so much probably to a like special interest amount, I think this perfectly sums up the thoughts I have in a way that I couldn't really structure it. I always find myself doing the pacifist playthrough first when playing for the first time or well mostly replaying for the first time in a while and it doesn't dampen the experience, however on subsequent playthroughs where the emotional impact won't be as fresh; I usually end up using the more interesting, fun combat over sparing enemies. Especially when it comes to reloading and fighting bosses. I don't think the game is held back by it at all though like you said, but it's just kinda cool that like. I'm not the only one who was thinking this sorta thinggg. ;P

[@Dragynn999]

You asked why I as a viewer stayed throughthe whole video. I ndeed like the battle system in all of it's rather binary decision making glory but as someone who is working on a game myself I love to study other, and often very popular, systems that already exist. If you ask me, there is one thing we should keep in mind tho. This is only chapter 2. Who knows if we're not actually still in the setup phase of the game? Sure , the game punishes us for violent approaches and is encouraging a pacifist play style by actively hiding the more engaging and enjoyable moments of the story on a path of pacifism, but we have a narrative on the other side that actively rejects all the good and welcoming parts of the world that has been created for us. We increase the emphasis of Kris being a loner and weird kid when pushing violent options and discover really uncomfortable moments and story beats of which we will actually have to see if they have some actual gravitas to them or if they only end up changing little details. The biggest actual flaw of the battle system is simply that it is tedious and unrewarding once you get used to it after repeated encounters with the same few enemies over and over again. Even if you have recruited an enemy, as you said, the options are not freed up afterwards. It only prolongs encounters from that point forward.

[@rootvegetableboy3515]

this is really interesting to think about, especially given that the game is still incomplete and nobody is 100% sure where toby is taking things (except for toby himself lol). i'm hoping to see more morally grey decisions/outcomes in future chapters; e.g. there was something really startling to me about the difference between snapping strings vs fighting during spamton neo. i chose to snap his strings because the game has drilled pacifism into me but watching him lay there in the dark was so jarring and uncomfortable. it was only after that i started to wonder if 100% pacifism is truly the "correct" way to play.

[@kingofcrap4414]

Pacifist ending is extremely dark and sad, but you get to see Spamton genuinely happy for at least a few seconds. Violence ending is much more goofy and humorous, but Spamton never learns the power of "the greatest deal of all" and misses out on that fleetingly happy moment. So it's sort of a mixed bag.

[@maniadotcom6539]

This video perfectly explains why the Genocide route in Deltatraveler, despite being absolutely horrifying, is very fun to play. Deltarune's combat system is so suited for fighting!

[@elio7610]

I enjoy Deltarune's battle system considerably more than Undertale's. The main fun of battles for me in both Undertale and Deltarune is the bullet hell parts, Deltarune's addition of gaining TP by "grazing" connects the "attack" and "defend" phases making battles feel more whole. Undertale's genocide path is nothing but a tedious grind outside of boss battles and the pacifist route battles are mostly just underwhelming (I really do not find guessing which menu option is the correct way to make an enemy like you to be much fun, especially when it is just random chance as to which is correct and there are no hints. It gets especially tedious when you already know the enemy but just run into another one and have to repeat the same thing). I do find Deltarune to be a bit too easy but i also dislike fighting the same enemies over and over again so as long as enemies respawn i prefer most battles to be quick and easy so that backtracking is not too tedious.

[@sumthinorother9615]

it’s me i give a shit I’m super abnormally into turn based combat and I genuinely couldn’t bring myself to finish chapter 2. It wasn’t a rage quit or anything, I just put it down and never felt the urge to pick it up again. Maybe I’ll have a change of heart for the next chapters, or better yet, maybe the system will be improved significantly. Regular acts that cost TP might single-handedly save it, when you lay it all out like this… My preferred fix is having acts interact with different mechanics at all. If TP is only for magic, try, like, acts that raise/lower stats with different numbers for a basic risk management game. I’m still annoyed that green attacks aren’t in this game; those are the best spare mechanic Undertale even had, from a pure gameplay perspective. In Deltarune they are succeeded by mostly timing based minigames, which are just sort of fine? Being detached from the bullet segment makes them way less tense, and they just kind of suck mechanically, so far. It’s like, the bullet hell segments are already filling the role of quirky battle minigame, so these will probably stay pretty half-baked; it could destroy the pacing if they don’t. If only there was a way to work act-related tasks into the bullet patterns… hmmm… One bit of “tech” you missed is that if you know an enemy will be sparable, as in your 14:20 example, you can have an extra party member spare them immediately. Technically that makes Take Care the better option, in exclusively a battle with 2 Viro-3 party. (although less bullets means less tp means less money, technically…) Not that the distinction matters at all. It’s still the same flowchart, just with extremely minor optimization. It’s 3 am I’m done now

[@tylercafe1260]

The game series is primarily a bulllet hell. The idea of it being turned based was exclusively to give you a break and to heal for these brutal bullet hell segments. It's why the options in both Undertale and Deltarune are so simplistic because it doesn't want to overwhelm the player. It's intentionally that way because of the mixing of the genres. It's like talking about the chocolate of a Reese's cup and not the peanut butter. It almost misses the point.

[@imwithmilk8162]

18:57 Yknow that actually gives pokemon nuzlockes kind of a new feel to it, you aren't just restricting yourself, the pokemon just don't like you anymore when you beat one on that route, Nuzlocke storytelling boutta go crazy

[@CFOG-bx4wl]

In reality the Battle System just adds to the moral delema of the game, Even if fighting and hurting others is more fun, is it the right thing to do? Will we get a happy ending? Our fun dose not constitute the hurt and pain we inflict on others. Even if darkners are just inanimate objects brought to life they still have there own thoughts and feelings, Hopes and Dreams. This game tells us how our choices don't matter, One ending. But this is just a false backdrop so to speak. In reality there IS a choice, OUR choice. To be Kind, Even if the battle system makes it more tedious or braindead. Or to be Violent, Just because it is the more "Fun" option. Games are supposed to be fun, but they can also be used to teach us lessons or help us learn more about ourselves Maby the end of the game will fully reveal itself to be more of a test of our moral compas or empathy for the fictional characters we love. Or maby that would be more of a repeat of Undertale. We can only wait and see. *👇👈🔅🕉👈 ❄️🏳 ✝️✌️✋️❄️🤚☠️☝️📫 *= )

[@worth779]

So I'll be real the whole "choices don't matter" and the whole "only one ending thing leave me to draw one conclusion. Deltarunes final chapter will start a sort of, time loop situation. It'll take you back to the first, or possible even SOONER than the first chapter. Deltarunes story will ultimately be guiding you towards the one big conclusion, but it's likely that's going to be very difficult to find

[@bookworm_of_heaven]

honestly you have a point. and for a second, while you were talking about how sparing is boring compared to fighting, i thought that you were alluding to the theory that you have to fight/kill in order to get the true ending. im thankful you didnt, because honestly the gut-wrenching terror it would induce in me is *not* appreciated, and as a writer, im painfully aware that said terror is often enough the better route to go with your story, so its really not far-fetched. anyway, i do think though that, since chapter 3 is apparently more combat-based than it is plot-driven, that this *teensy weensy* issue you brought up is possibly going to be fixed soon. well see i suppose.

[@Laezar1]

I agree with all that and I also agree with "who cares" lol honestly the combat system has a lot of potential, even in undertale there are like, fighting benefits to doing certain acts like changing an opponent stat but it doesn't matter since you're not going to hit them anyway. I think there should be more interplay between act and fighting, mercy and health. Maybe there should be some RNG in the action result too (but more transparency beforehand about what they do) so that you end up adaptiing your strategy on the fly based on the result you get. Honestly I think a big change that could be done would be to let the player use one pacifist and one combat action each turn, and have these interact with each other. that way the two systems don't step on each other toes. And about the recruitemeent system, just have it so that fighting doesn't hurt recruitement and recruiting means you don't encounter the ennemy again. That way you get rewarded for it with less encounter without fighting hurting you (and honestly just remove the stat boost from fighting... not needed, just let equipment handle stats)

[@LilyTengoku]

you can always fight and then pacify, because most enemies won't die in one hit

[@FilthyTea]

Undertale and Deltarune have been lacking in serious critiques imo, and I kinda wish more people pointed out their issues. I understand people love these games, but it’s important to step back and critically evaluate the things you love so you can have more of a fully formed opinion.

[@ihavenoidea598]

But... In undertale you figure out the way to approach the enemy once and then use it over and over again? After that It's not that different from deltarune, actually worse because there's way less cool anims and minigames. And about fleeing: in deltarune you can avoid enemies in overworld, so that's why there's no flee button (and avoiding actual enemies you can see in the overworld is way better than spamming the flee button) P.S. Your typical undertale playthrough has way more than 40 enemy encounters

[@Litepaw]

"your choices dont matter" and "there's only one ending" can still mean that there's a hidden honor system, and will affect HOW that ending happens. I mean, flowey did also say "in here it's kill or be killed" and that didnt end up mattering except if you did a "low honor run". And Toriel kinda dispelled that precedent right afterwards, just like Ralsei kinda dispels the "your choices don't matter" thing a bit afterwards too. And if you really stretch the thought, you could also argue that there's 1 ending in undertale too: The barrier gets destroyed and frisk gets out.

[@ivancabrera3289]

even if you avoid the encounters you're punished because they never get recruited so it is not like toby fox can add a button to flee encounters in chapter 3 I honestly don't know how he can fix it but the thing is that deltarune is still in its beta phase I wonder if toby fox would balance it out by adding more variation to kris acting system I'm fine if the other characters have just like the s act or r act after all they already got magic spells

[@CleaveTheDragon]

With games like undertale, deltarune, creepy castle, knuckle sandwich, that whole genre of minigame battles I feel like the whole RPG aspect is really there more as an aesthetic, to make you think about games on a meta-level to prop up it's subversions and jokes, than to be fully-realized systems that are engaging unto themselves. I can picture how they could better design items, spells, moves, and so on to integrate into the minigames to try and give them more depth, variation, and a sense of mechanical growth to the player characters, but that clearly isn't the intent by these devs. What they're going for is spectacle. They want something that the people who don't really play RPGs can look at and not get bored watching it, and don't really account for multiple playthroughs and player expression beyond "what funny dialogue choice do you want to pick","do you want to see the funny npc", "do you want the good boy ending or the bad girl ending". The latter of which isn't even really player expression either; it's an excuse for playing/watching two separate playthroughs. They don't want you figuring out some exploit or strategy or over-grinding in a way to speed up boss battles because you might miss out on a piece of dialogue, a specific attack animation, or not hear the full soundtrack. It's a script; "Your choices don't matter." Ultimately these devs have a clear idea of the story they want to play out and the kind of gags and visuals they want to hit, and are, typically, done by a small team or even single developer. The kind of effort to, say, make Roar and Softvoice have equal benefits and drawbacks, like Soft voice being the one that takes longer to do BUT has a chance to give you an item you can use later, well now that requires figuring out what that item is, where to use it, how effective it is, and what to do if the player doesn't have it, etc. You combine that with giving characters more options and ways of interacting and trying to prevent any one obvious dominant strategy... that requires a lot more time and planning that I assume isn't as valued to these developers, as-is animating the enemies, their attacks, writing out enough dialogue, and then doing that for like, 5-10 other enemies in a given area that also needs it's own graphics, set pieces, characters, level design, music... you get what I mean. This would make for a better game, but it would lengthen development time, and maybe they don't think that aspect of game design plays into their creative strengths. Whether or not this is a problem for you, the player, comes down to what kind of games you play, what your expectations are, and what you enjoy. I wouldn't be surprised if a more hardcore turn-based RPG fan is bored by Toby Fox's hallway dungeons, casual bullet hell segments, and lack of combat depth. But I think it's safe to assume that there's enough people who are fans of these games that don't really want/need that when they're more interested in the characters and worlds that are being shared.

[@tommynson440]

possible helping to the issue: maybe more minigame acts? Fighting is more akin to the classic RPG Acting is warioware

[@КашпуровВладимир]

I think you can't really discuss undertale/deltarune combat system without mentioning bullet hell element. In traditional RPGs you can't avoid an entire attack by being very good with dodging. Bullet hell segments also provide a sense of urgency so you (or I, at least) can't think slowly during puzzle segments, especially if it's your first encounter with the enemy, it all just feel exciting. Making combat system more complicated would distract from excitement of bullet hell. Tbh I think they should time puzzle segments in full release so you are forced to spare no time thinking about this flawed element. Also I personally had a lot of trouble with secret bosses. They were pretty much the only challenging enemies in both chapters, I never died to normal enemies on my first run of both chapters, but I had to spend several days or in the case of spamton an entire week on learning how to defeat both Jevil and Spamton, and all this after reading on their entire pattern online. They are that much harder. After defeating each of them once fights with them feel like a breeze and I'm giddy for a similar time with Mike, but I shudder at the thought of Toby introducing complexity not just to bullet hell segment, but to puzzle segment as well, because that would make secret bosses even harder, increasing the contrast with the rest of the game even more. I'm going to be honest, playing through wacky hijinks of Ch.1 and Ch.2 only to be thrown out of them FOR DAYS to learn how to defeat a secret boss before returning into half an hour to an hour of endgame was VERY DISTRACTING, which is why I didn't even attempt to do it on my first runs, and that proved to be a good decision, I would be SO frustrated with the experience I would never finish Ch.1. Which is to say, if the team decides to introduce complexity into puzzle segments they should either de-emphasize the sheer OP factor of secret bosses in comparison to normal Darkners or make bullet hell learning curve for those fights less steep. Which would probably introduce it's own complaints from the players, so I don't think changing puzzle segment complexity very much is worth it.

[@QSBraWQ]

11:52 more viable is to do it one by one since 2 times x flirt will just make enemy leave and give you no money and waste a turn which could be used to gather tp. Also clover don't get spared from the 3 ralsei actions, but from 2 ralsei and one kris. also with jevil fight if you really go in rabit hole, you can use pirroutte and certian times to get huge buffs. 13:28 I think roar works on all enemies even if there are other type of enemies on battle, so its more useful in smorgasboard attacks. (also in smorgasboard attacks doing team acts is normally the bad strategy) take care X is worse option in smorgasboards, again. You show the start of game where you meet with enemies for the first time, where you are supposed to get used to them before mixing them. what, smorgasboard x moves do fill up the others? oh, well... also you do get more bobux if you get more tp, so potential optimisation can do something. since werewire is hard to spare, x moves are better though

[@borisod7220]

@spookydood5500 we only have 2 chapters out, this is only the start. The ruins demo had the exact same issues. Furthermore Toby said that chapter 3 will be a gimmicky one, so i am sure the acts will get more in-depth. My point is do not make conclusions so early on.

[@jarydgrobler9526]

I think 2 chapters into a 7 narrative chapter is enough time to critique certain elements of a game. It's almost 30% of a game - flaws do become present at this time in a playthrough. Toby and his team could definitely improve on the system, yes, but demos are meant to be critiqued, as they are a sample of what the full experience is intended to be.

[@jackatk]

You absolutely nailed it with this video! I haven’t seen anybody address this problem before. If I could add anything, it’s that with the introduction of the mercy meter in chapter 2, acting became the same as fighting; except instead of of pressing the same button over and over to make health go down, you’re pressing the same button over and over to make mercy go up. It’s the same mindless RPG mechanic that undertale critiqued :/

[@deriveepoch2725]

13:40 it can be used along with other enemies, and they could be tired by it too The most prominent example is the Tasque Manager fight: if you use roar and Pacify on Tasque Manager, fight will end in two turns! This is one of the examples why Deltarune's battle system is taking the right direction

[@tanushrmenon]

I disagree with your points on the pacifism being more rewarded than genocide. Cause thats kinda the point. Undertale wanted you to play pacifism, constantly berating you and becoming darker when you fight others. Saying the same doesn't apply for Deltarune is weird cause if its not liked here, why not also dislike Undertale's use of fighting over sparing?

[@hi-i-am-atan]

i unno, why ask a question that was already answered by the very thing you watched?

[@tanushrmenon]

@@hi-i-am-atan he didn’t really tho, but if I missed it could u post a time stamp where he says it?

[@saycap]

@tanushrmenon 6:40

[@xmariokiler2443]

Yeah, and I as a fan of this bullet hell gameplay, I would like to add that in both ut and dl normal enemies are soo easy that It's just isn't fun to fight them if you like gameplay. Like their attacks are basiclly dodge 2 or 3 random bullets which deal hardly any damage. Like in these game bosses seems soo hard only becouse you literally as a player gain 0 skill or any expirience fighting normal non super boss enemies becouse how easy they are.

[@andrew.mp4311]

I think a good idea for a mechanic to deal with the unimportance of enjoying fighting options is to give some future enemies a special status effect at the start of the battle that'll be like enraged or violent or something, where they don't listen to rational thought and ignore or greatly decrease the efficiency of your mercy act skills, so instead you would need to hit them with enough damage to snap them out of it. Not sure how I feel about this other addition but maybe also you would need to like strategize in making sure you don't hurt the enemy too badly that they run away so that you can't get the spare or something?

[@Goomba456]

It's also worth noting Deltarune kind of makes its system rather obtuse and confusing at first. You have Kris and Susie, then Kris, Susie, and Ralsei with Susie disobeying you, forcing in a warn mechanic which isn't well telegraphed. Then, you lose susie and get used to only 2 party members before she's tossed back and you have to relearn what to do with 3 party members. This is also at the end of the segment of the game which makes it feel very strange. When I was with someone playing this part of the game I remember them being extremely confused and frustrated due to the fact that they keep changing things intuitively and in a way Undertale never did. Chapter 2 definitely doesn't suffer from this as much but having the final boss require fighting is very strange when the chapter goes out of its way to prevent you from ever fighting. At the very least, in my opinion, they need to seriously redesign chapter 1 and its elements in order to make a less convoluted introduction. I really hope this ages poorly and things get a little less complicated and rather more in depth.

[@maxoublue1]

Mostly agreed with the points here. It's generally very rare that you get to use fighting and acting to spare someone, unless it's for the sleep spell. Outside of those instances, the only time I think you are able to fight enemies while not being unable to spare them are the boss fight against Queen and King. In the fight against Queen, I heard it was more effective and time efficient to attack her shield since it would remove more of it than if you made everyone do a toast, especially if you used one of Susie's Buster skills. Not only that, but you don't have to worry about accidently killing Queen, since the shield does immediately get destroyed once you removed all it's health, making it a safe, and again, quicker option than just ACTing. For the King fight, I'm not 100% sure, but I think the way you decide to fight him does not have any effect on how he will be taken out after the battle. For example, if you spared everyone during Chapter 1, and then decide to fight King with violence, you will still get the cutscene where he is overthrown by Lancer and the other inhabitants of the Dark World, or vice-versa. While it's not on the same level as the Queen fight, it does allow someone who is playing as a pacifist to get into the combat system without being punished, and people who decided to use violence to try and actually spare someone, even if it does not work.

[@dylsplazy]

I think this is funny bc of the fact that ur saying that there isn't depth but remember "YOUR CHOICES DON'T MATTER"

[@dontmindmeimjustchilling]

Your points are really compelling, and I think your insight is really helpful from an rpg development side and as a criticisms. I very much agree that some of the standard battles are too long, for example the swathclings were kind of miserable ngl, they were the only enemy that kind of pulled me out of the game and if the story wasnt so good I might have put it down. Because even though this combat system works well for a more story driven game, its a good lesson overall to consider when designing a combat system.