Star Trek The Next Generation Ruminations S4E26: Redemption

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[@maflipse]

To give a real world example, if Catalonia declared its independence from Spain and started fighting for it’s independence. Should the other European nations send soldiers to kill catalonians because they are military allies of Spain? I think they’d want to stay out of the entire mess. Of course the duras don’t want independence, they want to be the new dictators and they are deceiving their own people. So there’s some ground to break the rule. But I don’t get why you have such scorn for the base rule being: we don’t get involved in governments killing its citizens. Ally or not, legal or not. Rebels are not automatically the bad guys. One could argue Dukat was the legal head of bajor. We wouldn’t help him against his terrorists.

[@1300l]

I agree. It's still a regional issue even if the entire quadrant would have a effect. Also the federation don't own the alpha quadrant.

[@antonioscendrategattico2302]

Well, the difference being that Dukat's government was installed as an occupation government. I think in the future the legitimacy of occupation governments wouldn't be assumed as matter of fact.

[@roystonsbailey]

What I like about Worf's character is that he's v good at taking advice. He doesn't have much of an ego when it comes to that.

[@reviewbridge3400]

Best thing on Monday mornings, TNG ruminations!

[@badmaninc.536]

I always interpreted Picard’s refusal to Gowron’s formal request for military aid comes from the fact that such a decision is technically not his to make. Yes Gowron is the legally confirmed head of state for the Klingon Empire... however Picard is not the legal head of state of the Federation. It could be that after his role in the disaster at Wolf 359, Picard is very much trying to minimize his profile, politically, within the Federation when it comes to situations like this. Sort of a “I’m kind of on thin ice with command right now, so I can’t make that kind of decision on my own at the moment.” Type of thing. However, if Gowron were to formally request this of Starfleet Command, and the Federation Council as their ally, that he might have gotten a different and (to Gowron’s perspective) more positive response. However, this is my own interpretation and theory on the subject, which was never confirmed on screen, so I’m probably reading too much into something that isn’t there.

[@kardy12]

BadManInc. Exactly, the episode does not suggest Gowron has made a formal request to the Federation. A mere captain wouldn’t be making decisions about intervening in the sovereign matters of other countries in most countries on Earth - which is what Starfleet has been modeles around.

[@jmorrison230582]

@@kardy12although there is a line in the episode where Gowron says to Worf: "Picard listens to you, and Starfleet (command) listens to Picard". Which is kind of what ends up happening in the second part of the episode, i.e. Picard convinces an Admiral of the merits of setting up a blockade against Romulan supplies.

[@rafetizer]

I haven't delved far enough into DS9 yet to get the full details on Gowron, but I like him in TNG. He's a Klingon, but a savvy one. When Worf feeds him new information, he takes but a moment to incorporate it and make his decisions. And yeah, that send-off for Worf is the absolute best. We're so used to seeing Worf used as a punching bag it's great to see him get some mad respect for once. I like how the only lines during that walk are necessities. "permission to disembark; granted; and dismissed". It's exactly what Worf would want, and the fact that we see the entire command crew there speaks more than any emotional lines probably would have.

[@paulscott2037]

I feel like people often only see the small picture when talking about the Federation interceding in other conflicts. Even in the modern day world an allied nation would think very carefully before getting involved in another's civil war if at all. In the Federation's case part of their appeal is their neutrality. It is why so many worlds use them as intermediaries. It is why so many worlds join the Federation in the first place. If you start to mess with that equilibrium then you will end up with more internal conflict within the Federation itself. Hence why it limits itself to wars of defence. You also run the risk of making the civil war even worse. Think of the Korean War or Vietnam and that's what you will potentially end up with. Meanwhile while Gowron's side may be a bit bitter about the lack of Federation aid the Duras would almost certainly be able to heavily poison public opinion against the Federation if they were directly involved. Hell we know from a cultural perspective that the Klingons are majorly concerned with the notion of the Federation asserting themselves over the Empire.

[@MrGunlover12]

Klingons value honor above all for an ally to reject a request for help makes the federation look dishonorable and cowardly

[@kardy12]

rob peterson Worf may value honor above all, he is the idealised Klingon after all. But if you have been paying any heed to LoreRunner’s ruminations regarding Klingon “honor”, the reality on the ground is that the Klingon empire is about politics and “honor” relegated to mere posturing.

[@Jose_Hunters_EWF_Remixes]

RIP Aron Eisenberg (Nog) 1/6/1969 - 9/21/2019

[@1981roykeane]

Your point on the Federation not joining the "official" Klingon Government after Gowron was made Leader of the High Council used to piss me off a lot as well. The only justification perhaps that I can think of is that the Federation was afraid that if they got involved, the Romulans would then (officially) get involved on the Duras side,leading to a direct Federation/Romulan conflict also. Love your episode reviews, thanks!

[@nickokona6849]

Wolf 359 a good point. The Federation and Gowron vs Duras and the Romulans. Then you’ve got a galactic war level event.

[@AdamCollings]

"You've played Civilisation." Yes! That's exactly what I was thinking about.

[@thexalon]

There's another good reason for Picard's statement, which nobody (Picard included) points out: - Worf and Gowron argue that Duras is bad because they're puppets of the Romulans. Kern might even have been going around making that exact argument with those fleet commanders he's been talking to. - But if Gowron tries to take control with explicit Federation backing, then the Duras faction will surely make the argument to commanders that he's a puppet of the Federation, and now what is plainly a political advantage to Gowron (if he can back up his accusation) disappears. "You're Romulan puppets" "Yeah, but you're Federation puppets" isn't going to work well in the long term in a society with very real fears of being turned into yet another species that answers to the human-controlled Federation like the Vulcans do. So if the Federation says "yes" to aiding Gowron now, that will help Gowron win the current battle, but will also set the stage for another revolt. Whereas if Gowron finds a way to win without Federation help now, that will make the Klingon Empire far more stable going forward.

[@andrewkyriacou6405]

I love Redemption, it's another of the must watches, as usual any heavy Klingon episode is high up there. So here's my notes based on what you've said: Picard being the one to urge Worf to restore his honour: I third option is that Picard is more savvy in politics than Worf. While Worf has demonstrated some savviness of his own, including in this episode, Picard is still at the top. So it might be the case that Picard recognises that this might be the time to push forward on the restoration of Worf's name and therefore is the only person who can urge Worf to go forward with this. Duras: Absolutely a puppet, it's been demonstrated that he doesn't do anything other than grandstand, he's great at that. Basically he's maxed out his intimidation skill but if anyone actually stands up to him he can't handle it. I get the impression that his son is basically an insight into Duras as a child, it would make sense to me. Duras was a brash young man full of bravado and whenever you spoke up he just got slapped down by his family or maybe others he hung around. One reaction to that is to basically become as Duras as, which is to say: Act really tough but secretly be following someone else's orders. The Khitomer outpost records: To me I think that's taking what you say later about internal affairs and taking it a step further. At the time Gowron wasn't chancellor so it was an internal dispute at the time so Worf shouldn't be using his position as a Starfleet officer to influence that. I think Picard making the records public (which I agree they should have been public anyway) is the best he could, and should, do. The Duras sisters are basically carbon copies of Duras in terms of them being about grandstanding but taking orders from someone else, I think they're just a little more subtle about it. More importantly though I think if the Federation had backed them in their claim on the empire I absolutely believe the would have worked with the Federation and been on friendly terms with them. Afterall, what better way to keep the Federation complacent while the Romulans do what they do best until they're ready to act openly. The prime directive shouldn't apply in general I believe because to my mind the intent is to stop interference with 'lesser' civilizations (as in ones that aren't capable of standing on their own on the galactic stage), I don't think it was intended in order to tie the Federation's hands when dealing with other galactic powers like the Klingons and Romulans. The way I see it the prime directive has likely become twisted over time until it no longer resembles it's initial intent. As you say, if the prime directive doesn't allow you to support your military allies then what the hell are you doing playing at galactic politics?! I think what should have happened once Gowron was made official was Picard's response should have been: "I will take your request to Starfleet command and I will campaign for them to provide assistance." That is basically what he does next episode anyway, the only difference would have been that the meeting with Starfleet command would have opened with them denying Picard and Gowron's request for aid. That was it's Starfleet that looks stupid not Picard and let's face it, one more instance of command looking stupid isn't going to change anything. That would have made the solution Picard does come up with feel more earned, working within that Lawful Good trope that Picard belongs in. So that's some of my thoughts on this episode. Can't wait for next week.

[@ChocolatierRob]

Two things - Firstly I agree with most other commentors here that the Federation not getting involved is not nearly so stupid as you claim and for the reasons they state but I'll approach it from an angle that most don't seem to be covering - setting a precedent. Picard does not want to set up a future situation where other powers can say "but you did it that time" for events of a similar nature. Like the whole "We don't make deals with terrorists" ideal, giving an inch now is just the first step in not being able to stop someone taking a mile later. The second thing though is about Worf not taking action against or even speaking of his unjust discommendation. Worf simply _can't_ speak against it without going against his resolve from when he accepted it in the first place. It would be dishonourable of him to backslide on a decision he made just because living with it is 'difficult'. His own moral code has no time for whiners.

[@maflipse]

I don’t see how Gowron being the legal head of state is so important to you. Kim Jong-un is the legal supreme leader of North Korea. I sure hope we wouldn’t assist him in putting down a rebellion. Personally I can totally see why the federation doesn’t want to start getting involved in putting down rebellions in favor of governments that weren’t democratically elected. Now I might still get involved in this particular instance, because of the unique situation. But I think the hammering home of Gowron being the legal leader is not such a strong argument. Horrible monsters throughout history have been the legal leaders of countries. If he was democratically elected in a fair election I would feel somewhat different about it.

[@Lorerunner]

Part of my point is that the Klingons were our military allies at the time, as close as we could be without actually joining each other. I think the Prime Minister of the UK would be a better analogy, personally.

[@maflipse]

Lorerunner Fair enough, but even with that. If Jeremy Corbyn right now called for a revolution and things got violent. Would we send in troops right to support Boris Johnson, a man who won no election to lead the country but was appointed? I think plenty of people would say we shouldn’t touch that with a 40ft pole. And if we suspected another country, an adversary of ours, was funding one side. We would try to expose that. But still not send in troops to kill British citizens on British soil. I do think the federation probably should have supported Gowron, perhaps simply with supplies, like the romulans did with the duras. Without the federation actually taking any Klingon lives. Also, if the federation had gotten involved in the military conflict and the fighting. Couldn’t the romulans have used that to their advantage? “Look at this federation, they say they want to live in peace but then they start killing Klingon citizens when they risk getting a Klingon leader they don’t approve of. Well we refuse to stand by and let the federation install a puppet dictator. We’re going to join the war on the side of the duras! The people’s choice! Not Starfleets puppet” I could see the romulans spinning it in a very negative way, then if the romulans get involved in a more direct way it can lead to all out war. At which point the cardassians might start taking territories again because the federation is busy elsewhere. I definitely think I personally would have gone for supporting Gowron through supplies and other assistance but not gotten involved in the actual fighting.

[@rmsgrey]

@@maflipse Technically, Boris did win an election to lead the country - an election where only pre-existing members of the Conservative Party were eligible to vote, but still a democratic election. And, yeah, it's bad enough that a Federation captain was the one who appointed Gowron as Chancellor in the first place, even if everything else was done strictly according to Klingon law and tradition. Intervening militarily would have either rallied support to the Duras's cause, or established the Klingon Empire firmly as a Federation puppet. My theory (not having actually watched the episodes for decades) is that Gowron was playing a deep political game, that Picard picked up on - actually receiving Federation aid, even in the form of supplies and logistical assistance, would have done more harm than good, undermining the legitimacy of Gowron's position even if it neutralised the immediate threat, but formally requesting aid, having it denied on the record, and having the Federation's non-involvement scrupulously upheld by a man of honour, establishes clearly that Gowron does not owe his position to the Federation - that he is not a Federation mouthpiece. And, of course, for this to work, both Gowron and Picard have to play their parts without any hint of collusion or collaboration. And then, of course, the exposure of the Romulan interference completes the job - Gowron is no Federation lapdog, but House Duras? Their loyalty is to their Romulan paymasters! If Gowron had received aid from the Federation openly, and House Duras' Romulan backers were still exposed, then there's still a political argument to be made against the latter - as duly appointed Chancellor, Gowron exercised his right to request the Federation's aid, but House Duras? They hypocritically condemned Gowron for doing openly the very thing they were doing secretly (and were caught at it) - but, while it still embarrasses the Romulans and neutralises House Duras, this outcome would do nothing to counter their political attack on Gowron - he would still be Chancellor through the backing of the Federation, and that would significantly weaken his personal power.

[@rafetizer]

Picard turned down a request for military aid like he was an AI teammate in Civ 5.

[@anthonygagan4398]

You are right, it was a very long summer. Not as long as the last year but still a long wait. Thanks for the video, always makes my morning.

[@AlucardNoir]

Actually that was the right call for Picard to make. If you remain the allie of a power wilst it is in the midst of a civil war you ate still their nominal allie at the end, indifferent of who wins. If on the other hand you interfere that sends the wrong message internationally.

[@nickokona6849]

Ok, so in the ally part, I understand why it bugs you, but it’s very unusual for a nation to call on military allies to kill its own citizens. Military allies are good for conquering foreign nations together, or a joint defense against a vast aggressor, but can you imagine the USA breaking apart into another civil war, and the government of the USA turns to Canada and Britain and asks them to put boots on the ground to kill Americans? I think that’s highly unlikely, and not what military alliances are for. For the sake of the story, we want apicard to get Sisko’s Pimp Hand and slap the Ilingons down, but hat would just be inappropriate. The Federation did the ideal thing. It used its expertise to uncover the Romulan connection. That’s putting the war down without engaging in warfare.

[@ajsouza3720]

@Nick Okona When a 2nd American Civil War starts it will become a proxy war between NATO, Russia, and China. I think Picard should have really stressed the point that the Klingon Civil War could have very easily been the start of total war between the Feds and Gowron vs the Romulans and Duras. Considering this has happened not long after Wolf 359 I don't think Starfleet is in a position to defend from a fullscale invasion from Romulans.

[@MissTea_Trekkie]

Thank you for getting me through the work day!!!

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

the key here is exactly that it is not an outside threat, but a policing action... and that's the job of the internal forces rather than the military also... I believe that which most surprised Picard was that Warf was primarily a Klingon rather then firstly a Starfleet officer... sort of like if Dumbledore chose to leave Hogwarts in order to become head of the Auroras... it's out of Character for Warf and is rightly noticed.

[@russellmackay7493]

Off subject slightly imagine how cute a ferengi baby would look probably the cutest looking alien baby .R.I.P .Mr eisenberg

[@videogenics86]

It would've been better if Gowron had decided NOT to ask for Federation aid and in keeping with his character. If the Federation provided military aid the civil war would've lasted a day and a half. This would have also weakened Gowron's position as there would have been many that would question if Gowron would have been able to hold on to power without the Federation. That way the Federation is barred from interfering directly and Worf's arguments for getting involved are much weaker since the request for aid is NOT on the table. This would also make Worf's choice to resign much more powerful and Picard's dissappointment make more sense.

[@DrownedInExile]

Worf is the Klingons' answer to Captain America. Captain Quonos perhaps.

[@Species1571]

Barbara March, who played Lursa, died just a few weeks ago.

[@namelessbaron1289]

So Durass was Nicholas the 2nd and the Rommulan's are Rasputin?

[@Obdimus]

Completely agreed in regards to Picard being a complete brick wall on the issue. He had every reason to at least say "I'll have to have a talk with Starfleet", which granted he does in Part 2, but the scene where he repeatedly turns down Worf while parroting Prime Directive bs was extremely irritating.

[@stanleyfarrens6065]

Lore makes many pragmatic points why the Federation should interfere. Ignoring that it is supposed to be an organization that puts principle above such considerations. Picard acted within Federation ideals, even at cost.

[@emptycaster4905]

Anyone screaming "Prime Directive" at ya for this one either teleported from Discovery or time jumped from TNG season 1. The Prime Directive holds that the Federation won't mess with developing worlds... Where does that come up with the Klingons? Short form, I'm with ya Lore.

[@harpercole5321]

Best of Both Worlds was always going to be tough to follow as a cliffhanger, but this is a lot better than the next two season-enders. Klingon politics isn't entirely my cup of tea, but I can't really fault the acting or story-telling - it's solid work.

[@quicksilvertongue3248]

France and the USA were very tight military allies in the Revolutionary era; I don't recall how long that stayed true, nor what France was doing during the 1860s, but if either Abe Lincoln or Jefferson Davis had asked France to join that side of the War Between The States, I definitely feel like the French should have been like "Uhhhhr...."

[@jani11]

Nice rant, great rumination :) But i still think Picard did it to "call their bluff". If he (Picard) as the arbitrator intervened it would have meant that he lost his status of one and Gowron were no longer considered the lawful ruler of Klingons. It would be a totally different matter if a neutral Federation ship intervened.

[@jvzn]

Nice to hear your thoughts as always. Personally I feel it would have been a mistake (and out of character) for Picard to bring the Federation into the civil war in this episode. For one thing, he may not be authorised to make that call. More importantly, the Federation's obligations to Gowron as rightful leader of the Klingons pertain to foreign policy, not internal affairs (exactly as he says to Worf). The treaty would apply if the Empire was attacked by a foreign power, but not in this situation. I don't see this as a 'Prime Directive' thing, more a standard feature of an alliance between two foreign powers. It could have been counterproductive anyway, as Gowron would lack credibility if he was overtly propped up by the Federation (whereas the Romulan support for the Duras family remained hidden). And Klingon opinion could have turned against the Federation for imposing their will on the Empire. I haven't seen Part 2 yet, but once Picard has evidence that the Romulans are sponsoring Duras family's claim, it should change his stance.

[@sicily7220]

Gowron I liked him. I feel like what they did to him wrong at the end of the DS9. Gowron did what he thought was right and everytime someone challenged his leadership; he took on all challengers. LoreRunner: I am sorry, completely disagree about Military. You take US Civil War it was Civil War even though Pres Lincoln was elected legally. IN addition, Military alliance does not mean you send military into a country to keep in power even if legal. Look at the US Revolutionary war, image if Britain allies come to the Americas to help put down the colonies. I mean look the mistakes the US has done. We supported and helped keep brutal dictators in power, when it was though alternative would disrupt the region. I mean just look at the Vietnam War. I understand it, however your Military cannot be blunt instrument.

[@mikaelm5367]

I can completely understand why Picard, who is not the Federation, does not want to get involved in a civil war, because that means unilaterally deciding the legitimacy of a foreign government, something to be done very carefully internationally. Imagine if the exact same events happened, but Gowron lost. Would they back him? Would you be as angry if they stayed out of it?

[@factualopinion6947]

Favorite episode from season 4

[@donovanbradford8231]

Love this two parter. If I play devils advocate I have a reason why Picard said no. Gowron came to Picard and not the Federation council. Had Gowarn did that he may have gotten a yes. Instead Gowron went to a Star Fleet captain who can't say yes to that kind of request. But this is a lesser used example of what would lead to the creation Maquis. The Federation not doing the right thing.

[@hughsmith7504]

I always figured the reason that Picard gave such hollow answers is that he had already been in contact with command and that they gave him orders to stay out of the conflict no matter what, and being a good officer, he followed his orders, but not being able to lie to his crew, he just parroted his bosses answers, and that is why he is upset at Worf leaving, not that he is confused, but is supper pissed his bosses in-action leads to the loss of his Senor tactical officer while in an active war zone ( an you can't tell me some hothead Durass supporter wouldn't take a crack at the Enterprise, even against the Romulan's wishes) but also the very real possibility that his friend was going to die in a hopeless cause, as it was kinda clear that Gowron was out gunned. Personally this is the point where I believe Picard finally grew his rebellious streak that goes right through the end of the movies.

[@jeffreymiller9438]

I think this assessment is probably correct. Star Fleet was badly damaged by the Borg, and even when they mobilize a squadron under 'Commodore' Picard its a ragtag assembly, to be sure. And note Star Fleet Command didn't send anyone of Flag rank to command. Probably because they wanted nothing to do with a potential morass. Star Fleet is essentially a frightened gutless bunch, even when their most powerful military ally is suddenly 'in play'...

[@Tuning3434]

As mentioned multiple times below, politically it would be better for both Gowron and the Federation if the Federation would have stayed out of the conflict. Episode wise it would be better if Gowron would realize how he would weaken himself on the long term by relying on the Federation, or giving some hint that Picard and/or Starfleet realizes they cannot get involved to benefit long term stability. On the military alliance side: technically you are correct, that is why Picard flat out refusing is stupid, especially by lazily invoking the Prime Directive as a reason. However, every military alliance is still a political choice and needs to be backed up politically. The Federation would without doubt get involved in a defensive war, would never ever agree to join in an offensive war (even if provoked) and needs to have sufficient political prove of outside meddling before backing up. I have no doubt that if the Romulans would have pushed their supply mission, after being discovered, they would have an entire Federation task-force on their neck, phasers blasting, before they've could have reached Qo'nos, even though the Federation was still recovering from Wolf 359. More interestingly, what would happen if a Federation world would have an internal revolution against a (what the revolutionary party would consider) an oppressive government. To what extend would the Federation back up the original government? Allied wise they would have to, but ethically and politically they probably want to decide which party is morally is the more righteous one. Best they could or would do is to have a defusing policing / peace-keeper force, and try to solve it diplomatically.

[@jamespepper8671]

Remember that this generation of Star Trek are all too familiar with the US getting into the quagmire of Vietnam.

[@dreamwhisperer2340]

Thank you for your hard work, Lore. It bothered me as well when I watched this episode that pickard just wouldn't do the obvious move. It's not much of a cold war if the federation keeps putting blinders on and lets the romulans take every advantage they can and in the mean time do nothing. this at least deserved a call to the admiralty board to request permission, but no....

[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

I’m honestly surprised Gowron didn’t end the alliance with the Federation for their refusal to aid the legitimate government against the insurrectionists.

[@1300l]

The federation don't own the quadrant, i like his posture. The Klingons need to get a grip by them self.

[@steakman1989]

Legit question: how does the Klingon military work? On the one hand, there is a uniformed and united Klingon Defense Force, and on the other hand it seems that the Great Houses have their own military forces. How do the two relate to each other? I can see an evolution from the more Feudal-style military from ENT to DIS season 1, and the unified KDF from DIS season 2 and TOS onward. But there seems to be some feudal elements in the Klingon military in TNG and DS9. Any answers?

[@lancebaylis3169]

My thought has always been that although the Klingons have a military structure complete with rank and ships and an overarching chain of command, in practice each ship is closer to being a Privateer vessel: the commander of the ship having considerable powers to do as they see fit, with only their own underlings to hold them to account for mistakes and removing them from command. Klingons value glory very highly, and within this structure, individual Klingon commanders and their ships have a certain autonomy to seek glory. Some of these Klingons, such as the Duras sisters or those Klingons in "TNG: Heart Of Glory", use that autonomy in duplicitous ways. Others, meanwhile, seem to use it to the wider benefit of theur people. Kor in Star Trek: TOS is seeking to annex Organia for the Empire, but seems to be acting autonomously to achieve it to some extent. Kruge from Star Trek III arguably is on something of a mission to discover what the Federation's new superweapon (as he sees it) is, and isn't acting on orders from the Empire per se, but seeking the glory of uncovering that for the betterment of the Empire. The young Klingon commander in Star Trek V (I forget his name, sorry) is seeking the personal glory of taking on Captain James Kirk in battle. While there does seem to be a Klingon military, there isn't, as such, a military complex controlling them from a centralized location. Instead, warriors are sent out to seek glory, and their rise through the ranks and their methods to do so are their very own. This feels consistent pretty much from their first appearance in TOS right through the movies and beyond.

[@kardy12]

I disagree with the idea that Picard acted “stupidly”. As a Captain of a ship, be it the flagship, he doesn’t have the authority to unilaterally intervene in the internal affairs of another sovereign power. As Arbiter, he had a formal role, but beyond the narrow formal role of Arbiter, his personal feeling about the internal conflict within the Klingon empire is irrelevant. Gowron may have requested Picard for help, but the episode does not suggest Gowron has made a formal request to the political leadership of the Federation for assistance. The Captain of a US navy ship wouldn’t be making political decisions about intervening in internal affairs of other countries, that clearance would need to come through the chain of command. Picard as a captain of a ship does not have the authority to intervene either. Only the political leadership of the Federation can make such a decision and order Starfleet to intervene. Take a chill pill. Also, the ‘r’ in Picard is silent.

[@athrunzala6919]

On one hand, if this was all an internal affair, why did the Fed allow one of it's own to be in charge of the formation of the next government? In for a penny in for a pound. On the other hand, the losers of a civil war - that you have to live with - will forever be bitter towards the Fed for the intervention causing future diplomatic and social problems.

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

America is/was a military ally to the Saudi government (not commenting on whether its good or bad) in the war on terror, (in the current scheme that alliance is vital) does that mean that they should help with various border conflicts the Saudi's have? maybe.... but what about the prosecution of dissidents who are considered criminals by the Saudi government? here I, and most, would say certainly not... I would say there is one higher rank of trust then a military alliance, that is a security-alliance, or an alliance of special services.... such alliances do exist, but mainly within very strong unions with similar laws... it is a much greater thing then a simple military alliance (which is just an agreement to jointly defend against common enemies)

[@MrGunlover12]

The federation would seem to be poor allies. In this case and with the invasion of cardassian space they were dishonorable

[@danielyeshe]

I completely disagree with you. The Federation should not get involved. Civil wars are the one area that the prime directive makes total sense. I also have a question. In The Way of the Warrior Gowron says that Worf owes him. Shouldn't they be equal? Worf helped Gowron win the war and Gowron restored his name. Yet even Worf admits in TWOTW that he has a debt to repay. I don't get it.

[@Yura-Sensei]

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