Stop blaming Israel for defending itself | Bret Stephens

Bret Stephens joined the Centre for Independent Studies for part 2 in our debate series on the Middle East. He provided the counter to John Mearsheimer's recent talk arguing that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing.
According to Stephens the critics of Israel who claim that Jews must choose between Zionism and liberalism have it backward. The illiberals aren’t the people defending the right of an imperfect but embattled democracy to defend its territory and save its hostages. They are the people who, like the former Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, want Israel wiped off the map and aren’t ashamed to say so.
Meanwhile, the best way to get Hamas to stop fighting is to beat it. No Israeli government is going to agree to a Palestinian state in the West Bank if it risks resembling Gaza.
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[@nicholaslogan6840]

This man is comparing committing genocide to being the victims of genocide. What an actual monster. This is disgusting.

[@Jianju69]

How is this genocide? What are your expectations for civilian casualty ratio?

[@nicholaslogan6840]

@@Jianju69 Bro they are intentionally killing civilians and lying about it, poorly. Are you aware of how Israel initially acquired its formerly Palestinian territory? It wasn't with consent of the people living there. Israel isn't the homeland of the people living there now. Israel is an invasion.

[@motherflange]

They cry out in pain as they strike you.

[@illahham]

Bret Stephens is a bed bug

[@peterland2824]

@@Jianju69 ANY of the following with INTENT towards a national/ethnical/racial/religious group. Killing, causing serious harm, infliction of conditions for physical destruction or prevention of births, forcible transfer of children to another group. Genocide does not necessitate the eradication or extermination of a people for it to be classified as such. Intended as a response to the WWII atrocities including the Holocaust, the Paris 1948 'Genocide Convention' defined the term. The UN General Assembly ratified this description in 1951 with Resolution 260A. 152 countries have now consented to be bound by this treaty with the responsibility to “undertake to prevent and to punish” this crime. Israel too ratified this on 9 March 1950.

[@Jim_Murphy_69]

John Mearsheimer - The three reports from Amnesty, HRW and b’tselem highlight in extensive detail that Israel is an apartheid state. These reports are written by some of the worlds foremost experts on the topic and make an extremely compelling case. Bret Stephens - Israel is not an apartheid state because to label Israel as so is Anti-Semitic. You really won me over there Bret!

[@AdastraRecordings]

What an utter bellend.

[@peterland2824]

An objective paraphrase. I agree!

[@adrianj9056]

So 2 million Muslim Arabs live in Israel with full rights, and the entire Arabian peninsula is jundenrein (free of Jews), and Israel is an apartheid state. There are even Muslim high court justices in Israel. You are a moron beyond words.

[@HelLo-kq6uz]

"anti-semitism is the cause of the war" This is going to be a tough listen.

[@Jianju69]

Absolute truth. The Arabs are *always* the ones to attack first. And why? Because they hate the Jews.

[@labricola6993]

Worthless Khazaria Ashkenazi Europeans have nothing to do with middle east. They're descendants of khazaria kingdom who's king ordered them to adapt jewish religion.

[@nativeeurope1299]

and a predictable one at that.

[@hitmanal]

This is a woke, identity politics argument. As an ethnic Jew, I find this unconvincing.

[@Jianju69]

@@hitmanal Another "woke identity politics" argument is: [the Jews are white oppressors and the Palestinians are the brown victims.]

[@polycarp9897]

"Israel has shown a consistent willingness from territory". Oh really? Then please explain the illegal settlements in the West Bank and the continued land grab which has escalated since October 7th.

[@RagingShrimp67]

Actually, that's exactly what he did. If you had actually listened to the talk, and/or had normal IQ, you would know that :)

[@peterland2824]

I concur with your analysis (polycarp)! Don't let ad hominem attacks deter your principles.

[@RagingShrimp67]

@@peterland2824 Funny considering your ad hominem attacks on Brett :D

[@peterland2824]

​@@RagingShrimp67 ​ I disagree with his arguments and have presented my rebuttals but have not ​disparaged him as a person at all.

[@djcogdill9263]

​@RagingShrimp67 I'm at the 1:00:25 mark and he's barely mentioned the West Bank at all, let alone talked about the illegal settlements still there. He sure did talk about them pulling out of Gaza, though.

[@Christian___]

This guy is a lightweight journo hack--it's shocking to see him compared to Mearsheimer who, few would disagree, is the top man alive today in the discipline of International Relations.

[@RagingShrimp67]

Actually in terms of content and knowledge, this talk was way more enriching than that of Mearsheimer's, and in terms of position, they were mostly in agreement. The only thing they are divided on is whether or not Israel is an apartheid state, which it is not, as Mearsheimer and his sources refer to what he calls "greater Israel" as "Israel", which is no one other than fringe groups actually does, and no one called him out on that obvious bullshit. The second point they disagree on, is that he seems to think Israel is hell bent on ethnic cleansing. Stephens easily debunks this, saying (and there is nothing you or Mearsheimer can say to contradict this) that if Hamas surrenders, the conflict in Gaza will end. Meaning, if the worry about ethnic cleansing was actually genuine, everyone would have pressured Hamas to surrender immediately to end the war. Since it doesn't happen, we can safely say no one truly believes there is a genocide in Gaza, least of all the Palestinians themselves.

[@Christmas12]

@@RagingShrimp67 you're confusing the Biblical 'Greater Israel' of messianic Zionists with the practical definition John Mearsheimer described (which refers to just Green line Israel, West Bank, Gaza, and Golan Heights)- Israel literally controls ALL those territories and that's not in dispute, Mearsheimer is correct and you either didn't pay attention or are deliberately trying to confuse people

[@RagingShrimp67]

@@Christmas12 I did not confuse anything. Nobody, in Israel, or outside Israel, treats the West Bank or Gaza as part of the Israeli state, and doing so exposes a laughable ignorance. There are literal checkpoints between Israel and those territories where Israeli citizens are literally forbidden to cross. If you, or Mearsheimer were actually knowledgeable and had actually visited Israel and the west bank, you would have easily known that, but if you want an even easier way to disprove it, it's enough to look at the Oslo Accords. The Palestinian Authority runs territories A and B. So the only one lying here is you.

[@Christmas12]

@@RagingShrimp67 I literally crossed from Jordan into Israel via the Allenby border crossing which is in the occupied west bank, which as I recall was swarming with IDF and Israeli officials (it was very obviously not run by the PA) - the fact of the matter here is that Israel controls all of the West Bank (and Greater Israel), and so called Areas A and B are Palestinian 'Bantustans' administered by the PA which is effectively a toothless puppet regime for the Israeli authorities to put some distance between Israel and the Palestinians on paper and in the imagination

[@SegzWithTedCruz]

Comparing him to John Mearsheimer is like comparing a toddlers finger paintings to Rembrandt. This guy is just yet another neo liberal hack passing off his weak assumptions as facts

[@MacedoMacedo74]

42:36 exactly, and here Israel is the one to blame because it has been in violation of humanitarian law and human rights for decades. That’s why, it’s not because the world doesn’t know the realism of war, it’s because Israel is the one to blame for this conflict.

[@CISAus]

You may enjoy this video. It is the first in our debate series on the conflict in the Middle East. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oXLJeoyqpch1rtE

[@Curse44]

Zero pushback, total softball interview. Wow.

[@CISAus]

Thank you for your feedback. We genuinely want to test our speakers.

[@TheDroppedAnchor]

@@CISAus Did AI answer or a human who doesn’t understand sarcasm ?

[@KasparOne]

​@@CISAusare you trolling us?

[@allenlopez9731]

…by committing genocide?

[@Jianju69]

Give me a @@ing break! "Genocide"? Do you have *any idea* how low their ratio of civilian to combatant deaths is? At some point, you really need to utilize some critical thought to the ideas your friends and teachers are feeding you.

[@peterland2824]

35:44. "Hamas is not committed to a two state solution". There are many problematic aspects to Mr. Stephens' arguments, but even the moderator seems intent on perpetuating falsities. Read the current (2017) Hamas charter, it supports a Palestinian state per 1967 UN borders. (Paragraph 20) “Establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.”

[@Christmas12]

Yes and while the modern Hamas charter still doesn't recognize the State of Israel per se it obviously does recognize that there is something on the other side of the 1967 'green line' - the reality is that Hamas is not the Muslim Brotherhood, or Al Qaeda, and definitely not Salafist (e.g. Daesh), Hamas IS Islamist (which is not ideal), it's not the sort of entity it is often maligned to be - *However* there still remains real practical problems with a theoretical two-state solution which ultimately make all this kind of a moot point; the political landscape inside Israel simply won't allow it at all (and to some extent the diaspora will get behind whatever Israel tells them so you can't really count on them to put pressure on either anytime soon). A real state ought to mean 'Full' Freedom for Palestinian self-determination but that theoretically does mean they should be able to have a full military if they so choose and Israel is unlikely to go for that either, so what exactly are we talking about.. some kind of rump-state Palestine with a coastal Gaza exclave and difficulties coordinating movement across the two territories, plus no right of return either.. and then we haven't dealt with the elephant in the room, the Zionists next door whose ideology (Zionism) continues unresolved to evolve in twisted and demented ways constantly ogling Palestinian lands which they increasingly feel entitled to on messianic grounds.. There is definitely a warped ideology in the Holy land and it's not islamism it's Zionism which is the root cause of the suffering; Islamism is a symptom of distress in muslim populations which you can observe all over the middle east in places and populations which used to be a lot more moderate in the 1950s

[@Jianju69]

You might want to read that charter more carefully. The charter accepts a Palestinian state within the borders that existed before 1967, while maintaining Hamas’s refusal to recognize the State of Israel, which it terms the “Zionist entity”. You are simply wrong about this. What exactly do you think they mean by "transitional state"? Not hard to guess what "transition" they are referring to.

[@peterland2824]

@@Christmas12 I agree with the vast majority of what you have said. I feel it is advantageous for a moderator not to perpetuate something which is not true, thus my comment. Real practical problems, yes, you're right. I find the term Islamist, or the concept and it's vilification somewhat problematic. When you have a population which has been on the receiving end of 'mowing the grass' (periodic murder sprees by Israel) for decades; a population which itself is the offspring of refugees from the 1948 forced resettlement. They have no recourse whatsoever. Relocation to Egypt? Annihilation compete of their culture and roots? Who are we in the west to say that their religion can not be central to their identity. The Gaza population has no hope or prospects pre or post October 7. Norman Finkelstein has drawn some illuminating parallels between the Gaza population and US Slave Revolts from the pre 1865 era. I think that there is much validity to be understood in such analogies. The US has had it's hands in 70 or so successful or not Coup d'état over the last century. The one in Iran in 53 is still strong in the regions memory. Yet so much of the west's memory is highly selective. I see this entire affair as amounting to the West bullying and then expecting the bullied to comply. If they don't they are vilified as terrorists via a highly effective system of indoctrination (AIPAC is just the tip of the iceberg) and that's that. As I said, I agree with the vast majority of your analysis. Our difference lies in our understanding of resistance movements.

[@danpatterson8009]

A two-state solution would guarantee future generations raised in cultures of prejudice, grievance, and resentment. It would codify political polarization and intransigence. It would perpetuate the legacy of hatred. The solution is one state with equal protections under the law for all, and it is only impossible if people assume it to be.

[@peterland2824]

@@danpatterson8009 I think a one state solution is closer to a two state solution. Israeli society will need to go through quite a reckoning to achieve either. I don't however agree that a two-state solution necessarily would guarantee prejudice, grievance, and resentment. It would certainly be difficult to counter such feelings. Certainly a two-state solution has the 3/4 million Jewish Settlers standing in it's way - amongst other obstacles.

[@frackjohn]

Unsubscribing. That's completely propaganda.

[@MrNoobophile]

Lol, you just realised it now? I'm not sure what demographic they are going for, but yes, this whole thing is one massive shill.

[@trellotrebleo]

I don't agree with Bret by any means, but having him as a guest was the second part of a two-part series on the Middle East by the CIS where the first speaker was John Mearsheimer, who was vehemently anti-Israel and plainly called the war in Gaza a genocide.

[@LorenzoGiovenali]

To be fair, they first hosted this (almost opposite thesis) presentation: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oXLJeoyqpch1rtE

[@RagingShrimp67]

He actually didn't call it a genocide, the closest he came to, is saying it might turn into a genocide and that he *assumes* Israel intends to perform ethnic cleansing, which is easily disprovable, and simply cannot happen.

[@AbuSous2000PR]

done

[@fil-dn9hs]

I feel sad for CIS. They're forced to be seen as trying to balance Mearsheimer's words of wisdom & fact with the nonsense talks from this nonsense guy!

[@sethnavabi6926]

Exactly. They were hamstrung into doing this for equality

[@rorya4538]

I don't believe so... Switzer and CIS is definitely in Team Israel from what I can tell. If anything Switzer was mortified by Mearsheimers monologue and made a couple not-so-subtle digs at him toward the end

[@Christmas12]

Bret essentially wasted his opportunity to try to push back on John Mearsheimer's compelling theory of the case, in summary: _Israel attempting to ethnically cleanse Gaza to head-off their apartheid problem (and growing awareness); which has culminated in genocide, and future problems from now until as far as the eye can see_ After attending the earlier Mearsheimer talk I was curious to hear how Bret Stephens might respond.. and I think I was disappointed more than anything (though it's hard to imagine how anyone could tackle John's argument) - he basically tried to say Hamas is fighting a holy war against Israel (and by extension 'the Jews'- †because we have to remember for Bret there is apparently *no* distinction between Zionism and Jews)🤦‍♂ Bret's central thesis revolves around this idea that Palestinians are fighting a religiously motivated war against Jews.. and that anyone criticizing Israel or protesting in the streets is doing so because they are antisemitic (whether or not they realize that in themselves, according to Bret).. his thesis effectively attempts to dismiss any and all grievances with the Israeli state, and occupation - he goes on to try and argue that Anti-zionism = anti-semitism in a pretty unconvincing and clumsy way, but this is an easy argument to dismantle which has been done a thousand times; Zionism is a political ideology (anyone can be a zionist, most zionists are in fact not jews but actually Christians, not all jews are zionists, and jews had to be persuaded by other zionists in the past to adopt Zionist ideology) - 📍At one point Bret tries to cite the current Sudanese genocide to make an argument that because no one in the room appeared to know about a specific Sudanese ethnic group that serves as some kind of evidence that we're all suspiciously over critical of Israel _(with the implication being because the world is antisemitic and wants to see Israel suffer)_, this is not a serious argument and that moment really encapsulates what Bret's whole argument boils down to: paper thin arguments that the world is just out to get Israel (starting with Hamas terrorists), all the way out to college kids on University campuses, to your average punter who thinks Israel maybe went a bit too far with the murder and mayhem (†let's be clear here, Bret's argument this whole time has actually been that the IDF needs to go *harder* against Gaza, in order to 'defeat Hamas'; an objective that now even IDF spox Admiral Hagari says is a complete fantasy, which he insists anyone saying otherwise is deceiving you). The fact that Bret really could not counter any of what John Mearsheimer put forward probably says it all about how screwed Israel and the Zionist mission is now going forward- Bret is one of their best guys and he had nothing to counter with except a waffling sob story about Jews getting picked on, this is not credible, and I think Israeli historian and activist Ilan Pappe has this figured out, like John describes this situation is going to resolve itself in the public imagination as an apartheid (sooner or later, this is an inescapable conclusion), and from there Israel faces the next probably few decades as a growing pariah state (all of this is going to be ugly in our domestic politics because the Zionist jews in the diaspora cannot see this for what it is), and eventually it will end up back as one unified state, the more we enable Israel and fight this process the uglier and more painful it's going to be for everyone

[@RagingShrimp67]

Actually, he didn't waste his opportunity at all. Stephens easily debunks this, saying (and there is nothing you or Mearsheimer can say to contradict this) that if Hamas surrenders, the conflict in Gaza (or the so called "ethnic cleansing") will end. Meaning, if the worry about ethnic cleansing was actually genuine, everyone would have pressured Hamas to surrender immediately to end the war. Since it doesn't happen, we can safely say no one truly believes there is a genocide in Gaza, least of all the Palestinians themselves.

[@Christmas12]

@@RagingShrimp67 so you're saying the ethnic cleansing and genocide will continue if 'Hamas' (whoever they are exactly) *doesn't* surrender (which they won't and nor should they)... And the more genocide Israel carries out here the more they crater their intl support (both now and over the long-term) ultimately accelerating the apartheid awareness and spiral into pariah status.. and yet we are very serious, trying to pressure Israel to cease and desist with their genocide, and they've been hauled in front of the ICJ over this, AND now the ICC has sought war crimes warrants for Netanyahu and Gallant - you must have a very high IQ because I can't comprehend your genius logic (it just looks like retardation to me)

[@Christmas12]

@@RagingShrimp67 so (according to you and Bret) the ethnic cleansing and genocide will continue so long as 'Hamas' (whoever they are exactly) refuses to surrender.. (which they won't and nor should they), and this is apparently Hamas' fault even though the ones perpetrating the mass murder and laying waste to Gaza, here is Israel, all the while they keep annexing more tracts of land in the West Bank too [incredible!]... and we in the Intl community apparently have to put the pressure on Hamas so that Israel stops this genocide.. because why exactly? because Israel are so apparently deranged and genocidal that they can't be stopped or held responsible for their own actions?? _absurd_ - and the more Israel persists with this campaign of mayhem and genocide the more they tank their intl reputation and accelerate towards greater apartheid awareness and inevitable pariah status... and yet we are very serious about this and Israel have been hauled before the ICJ over this on the charge of genocide, and now the ICC has sought warrants for war crimes against Netanyahu, Gallant, and 3 Hamas leaders (unprecedented stuff!), so I don't know where you get off here thinking people including the Palestinians don't believe what's going on here

[@Christmas12]

@@RagingShrimp67 so (according to you and Bret) the ethnic cleansing and genocide will continue so long as 'Hamas' (whoever they are exactly) refuses to surrender.. (which they won't and nor should they), and this is apparently Hamas' fault even though the ones perpetrating the mass murder and laying waste to Gaza, here is Israel, all the while they keep annexing more tracts of land in the West Bank too [incredible!]... and we in the Intl community apparently have to put the pressure on Hamas so that Israel stops this genocide.. because why exactly? because Israel are so apparently deranged and genocidal that they can't be stopped or held responsible for their own actions?? absurd - and the more Israel persists with this campaign of mayhem and genocide the more they tank their intl reputation and accelerate towards greater apartheid awareness and inevitable pariah status... and yet we are very serious about this and Israel have been hauled before the ICJ over this on the charge of genocide, and now the ICC has sought warrants for war crimes against Netanyahu, Gallant, and 3 Hamas leaders (unprecedented stuff!), so I don't know where you get off here thinking people including the Palestinians don't believe what's going on here

[@CISAus]

We appreciate the very thoughtful response and discussion. Thanks.

[@Emanon...]

Unsubbed. This is pure propaganda without any pushback or properly challenging any of these false claims.

[@CISAus]

You may enjoy this video. It is the first in our debate series on the conflict in the Middle East. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oXLJeoyqpch1rtE

[@stevelenores5637]

There is a right way to defend oneself and a wrong way. When you fight a monster by becoming a monster you have lost your humanity and any claim of being civilized.

[@lechenaultia5863]

We look forward to hearing your detailed plan....what should Israel do? Jews were exiled from their land over 2000 years ago. Over 100,000 Jews were slaughtered in the Russian progroms. 6 000 000 were slaughtered in the Holocaust. What exactly would you have them do?

[@stephanie4200]

By killing less civilians than in any other war in modern history. Why don’t you come to the region or get your facts right before spreading lies based entirely on the words of jihadist terrorists

[@CISAus]

You may enjoy this video. It is the first in our debate series on the conflict in the Middle East. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oXLJeoyqpch1rtE

[@MacedoMacedo74]

19:29 CIS were you forced to give a platform to this? I am all in for listening to both sides but this is a bunch of lies and completely biased.

[@motokhy7506]

How many jews were in palastine in 1917 ?? And then you will know who are the colonisers

[@RagingShrimp67]

About 300,000. And we already know the Arabian invaders, who are now identifying as Palestinians, are the colonizers. You are saying this like there is a mystery or dispute over this hard cold fact, documented throughout modern and ancient history, including the Qur'an itself...

[@Notreallyhereanymore]

@@motokhy7506 like maybe 1000

[@Madelro100]

First place I blame UK for have made a mess in the Middle East. Second I blame Israel for ilegal occupation

[@MacedoMacedo74]

9:03 8000 cases, who judges them? I am called antisemitic because I oppose the barbaric war crimes Israel is committing, who is judging? The ADL? I follow their work, it’s completely biased.

[@AdastraRecordings]

ADL are now branded as an unreliable source by Wikipedia, and that must've taken some doing because Israeli counter intelligence is all over Wiki rewriting history.

[@stephanie4200]

Bc you are repeating lies from miles away and pretending you care or know even the most basic facts that exist in this region. Why people feel so sure comfortable repeating these insane lies and propaganda against Israel

[@stefancamilleri4072]

Oh god this is embarrassing. John did great, this is is embarrassing himself.

[@ericpranzarone9936]

Bret Stephens: "Israel is very special and deserves very special exemptions to the standards Israel will hold everyone else to, or you're an anti-semite."

[@RagingShrimp67]

On the contrary, his entire argument is that Israel should be treated EXACTLY like any other country. There are currently about 130 armed conflicts around the world, some of them with a higher number of civilian casualties by a factor of 10 , but you don't protest against them, you have no strong opinions on them, because in fact, you don't know any of them. The fact you practice your made up humanist standards exclusively when the Jewish state is concerned, that my friend, is what makes you an antisemite.

[@joeyjojojrshabadoo7462]

​@@RagingShrimp67I mean that's fair, but I think the US taxpayer would have a problem if Trump got back in and then immediately recognised Russia's occupied territory and sent them billions of dollars of aid.

[@jeongkang6699]

This guy is supposed to be the rebuttal to Dr. Mearsheimer? Some nobody hack journalist? 😅

[@saidsayah174]

Save yourself a headache and watch the John Mershiemer interview instead.

[@kent3W]

bias

[@ndnghia2010]

The willingness and commitment of not tolerating and talking both sides (the Isarelis and Palestinians) over the course of more than 75 years is unbelieavable ... Isarelis deserve to depend themselves but Palestinians also have the right to have a state of their own in their own homeland; where they have lived for hundred if not thousand of years. And if that right is being denied over and over again then you have armed upraising. That has been like that over the course of history multiple times worldwide. Say, if the Australia government decide to marginalize and treat the indigenous people of Australia the way the Isarelis treated Palestine over 75yrs, I garantee Australia will have an armed uprising as well. Everybody has their own opinions, but I don't think we are dealing with Jews or Palestinian but fanatic on both sides; who are willing to commit atrocities base on their fanticism believe. If you talk about anti-semitism then why don't you compare it to anti-islamic also running rampagne in the western work as well ?? It is FANATISM we need to combat, and that applicable on both sides, be it Isareli or Palestinian. Unless there is willing to push both sides to negotiate and talk by the global and Middle East regional powers, who actually holding the cards here, this will continue to extended period of time. Oh, and anyone believe the IDF can crush Hamas can look up Cu Chi tunnel in Vietnam, how the Viet Cong troops hold on and fought a guerilla war right in middle of enemy territory South Vietnam for years. Tunnel & guerilla wars can strain and defeat well-equippped army.

[@CISAus]

Thank you for the thoughtful response to the discussion. If you haven't seen it already you will likely enjoy this video. It is the first in our debate series on the conflict in the Middle East. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oXLJeoyqpch1rtE

[@kent3W]

As mentioned the Palestinians have said no many times, also comparing Hamas to the viet cong is like comparing a jelly fish to a dolphin.

[@ndnghia2010]

@@kent3W I do have to know more about the proposed conditions that Palestinians rejected the deals in the past, whether those met their expectations. About comparing HAMAS & Việt Cộng forces, I compare them in terms of of military tactics similararity (guerilla and tunnel war fare). Also to draw a similarity beetween Việt Cộng (short for Việt Nam Cộng Sản) force and Hamas, i would advise you to read about the 1968 Tết offensive, which was a failure military for the VC, but it a win in terms of changing the mind of the Western and USA public regarding the on going war, leading to the winding down of US involvement in the Vietnam war. Let’s say there is also atrocities between VC force and our own Vietnamese people. PS: I am a Vietnamese native, so i do have some intimate knowledge about the Vietnam war.

[@user-is2gy5py6u]

This guy said he considers himself as a Zionist……. Say no more

[@adameniola]

This is a mediocre argument at best compared to the points laid out by JJM

[@anne1068]

All waffle no substance

[@abdidesign3255]

The first thing that came out of his mouth is a lie as usual with Israeli defenders. Israeli officials referred to the Gaza withdrawal as strategic step to freeze the peace negotiations. Not to mention it was all symbolic since they still controlled air, land and sea.

[@Jianju69]

All wrong. Israel's withdrawal left Gaza Strip left under the control of the Palestinian Authority. The Israeli military fought with their own citizens to enact that withdrawl. Let's see a citation for your (laughable) claim that this was a scheme to avoid peace rather than a plan to bring about peace.

[@kent3W]

imagine if Yassar had said yes

[@gavtalk958]

This episode is a psyop. Treat it as such.

[@nathanperkins5353]

1:02:17 "Israel are the chosen people and belong in Israel no matter the cost. I definitely don't have an ideology. Hurr durr"

[@jawdatziq1980]

As soon as he mentioned anti semitism I tuned out.

[@nathanperkins5353]

28:30 "Critical Thinking is bad. Critical thinking is a slippery slope. Critical thinking has no checks and balances. Just have faith. Hurr durr."

[@chrisdaly772]

This is hilarious. CIS make two 'own goals' in a row. Meirsheimer wouldn't say what they wanted and gets praised. This guy promotes the propaganda CIS is wedded to and he gets pilloried. Well done CIS, you've shown your true colours...in black and white.

[@doooovid]

Not surprising that over 1000x people more interested in what John Mearsheimer had to say.

[@RagingShrimp67]

Not surprising that there are way more antisemites than there are Jews :D

[@CISAus]

I think it would be very difficult to compete with John Mearsheimer. He is the world's most famous political scientist for a reason.

[@RagingShrimp67]

@@CISAus Yet his only arguments were severely flawed, and when called out on it, by an audience member, his response was "I've been wrong before".

[@noldushumlesnurr6169]

Not even going to watch/listen to this click bait. Just consider the logic in the title. If what Israel does is "self defence" then everything Hamas and Palestinians have done to Israelis are "self defence". Israel's soldiers live among civilians. They go to shops. They attend concerts. Use the Chomsky test on the arguments. Use some logic to your thought process.

[@Jianju69]

Best if you stick your fingers in your ears and hum something, perhaps the theme song from one of the cartoons you watch.

[@MacedoMacedo74]

I still gave it a chance but it’s more victimization and lies perpetuated

[@noldushumlesnurr6169]

@@Jianju69 Care to elaborate on that comment? How did you come to that conclusion based on the first post?

[@Jianju69]

@@noldushumlesnurr6169 What conclusion? That you watch cartoons? An obvious jest, stemming from the average maturity level of Hamas supporters.

[@noldushumlesnurr6169]

@@Jianju69 Ahh so that's the level where at. What does that say about Zionist suporters?

[@GamalElkomy]

Thanks for sharing these views. However, I have expected the host to challenge the speaker with similar or close questions as he did with Prof Mearsheimer. Also, how could he tolerate when he said “if you don’t agree with colonialism, go back to your country”. That doesn’t sound liberal to me at all. One last question, why did you show only the audience who agree or support his view, but the last two, who really challenged his arguments, they are hidden or cut from the edits of this video?!

[@CISAus]

Thank you for your feedback. We very much want to test our speakers.

[@kent3W]

i didn't see the liberal sticker on his head

[@GamalElkomy]

@@kent3W Exactly!

[@godblesstrolls]

Unsubscribed

[@LorenzoGiovenali]

To be fair, they hosted this first: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oXLJeoyqpch1rtE

[@bleargh22]

Loved the Iran question, and the answer, should be a massive focus for the west to unite the opposition. Key to the whole Middle East mess

[@adelminkara]

Disgusting .

[@jeongkang6699]

Why even have this hack journalist on? Kind of hilarious

[@rommelhyper3545]

Stop blaming Palestinians for defending themselves

[@nathanperkins5353]

"Criticism of Zionism is never the result of reasoned thought. Hurr durr"

[@robroy]

If we were to translate the phrase “I’m not anti Islam, I’m anti Islamist” from the youngest to the eldest Abrahamic sect, wouldn’t it be “I’m not antisemitic, I’m anti-Zionist”?

[@RagingShrimp67]

Nope, because it ignore the fact Jews have 1 state, and Muslism have over 50 states. Almost all failing btw. Yet Islamists still immigrate to the west and actively working to apply Sharia law in the west, which is another thing Jews do not do.

[@Notreallyhereanymore]

Maybe because there are only 15 million jews and jews are an ethnic group not a religion ​@RagingShrimp67

[@kent3W]

no

[@CanadianSpiceKing]

To anyone who believes Gaza was not a open air prison, how do you explain their lack of control over the sea? There is no seaport and Gazan fishermen cannot go more than a couple miles from ahore.

[@RagingShrimp67]

Switzerland has no seaport. Is Switzerland an open air prison?

[@CanadianSpiceKing]

@@RagingShrimp67 Could it have a seaport? Could Gaza have a seaport? Does Switzerland have control of its airspace? What about Gaza? I think you see where I'm going.

[@RagingShrimp67]

@@CanadianSpiceKing I see where you are going, and I see it's towards irrelevant, easily debunkable arguments, as demonstrated by my answer. The definition of open air prison has nothing to do with the presence of ports or with control of air space. Gaza has land borders with 2 sovereign countries, and the Gazan leadership, who are genocidal terrorists, decided to wage war on both, therefore this borders are mostly closed with aid regularly going in, and people with good enough reasons going out. Including thousands of workers who were crossing the border daily to work in Israel or receive special medical care unavailable in Gaza (pre Oct 7th massacre). Also, if you truly cared about the life in Gaza, you would have followed Gazan influencers, and look at their posts from before the massacre, and realize they probably lived a better life than you, in their "open air prison", so the use of this rhetoric is cynical and fictitious.

[@CanadianSpiceKing]

@RagingShrimp67 You are not addressing the fact Gaza is denied control over their coast by Israel. Their one airport was also destroyed by Israel. Blockades are acts of war. Egypt is also villainous.

[@RagingShrimp67]

@@CanadianSpiceKing You are not addressing the fact Gaza is in an active state of war with its neighbors since Hamas took over.

[@alexobrien1987]

83k Likes and 3.4Mil views for John Mearsheimer after 8 Weeks. Let’s see how well this does… Struggling to persist with this.

[@nathanperkins5353]

54:55 "Being colonized? All you have to do is agree to whatever terrible deal is offered to you. It's so easy. Hurr durr"

[@haanbaie]

39:12 Because it’s not even their territory. They rightfully HAVE TO withdraw.

[@nathanperkins5353]

1:04:22 "If you interfere with genocide, you hate those committing genocide. Hurr durr"

[@Primitivo-pd7vm]

The civilian casualties on D Day need context. 2 million Allied soldiers were invading and fighting across a much larger battle space and there were more French citizens who were in the battle space. If anything, citing this example diminishes the argument of Human Shields.

[@Kelvin555s]

See what a hypocrite looks like in reality😀

[@everythingandmore5537]

At minute 32:00 he says Gaza was not a prison because it has a border with Egypt. He says three sides of Gaza were guarded by Israel and one side by Egypt. What he is saying both Egypt and Israel were Concentration Camp Guards for Gaza.

[@ADag83]

Great respect for Bret. I've never heard anyone define Zionist self-determination as not being ruled by others AND not ruling others. Is that the prevailing definition? I don't dispute this definition, but was it expressed in Zionist writing? Would be convenient if yes.

[@nativeeurope1299]

Okay then lets stop blaming Germany for defending itself! Thats fair no?

[@jonlipi9669]

Brett the Bed Bug Stephens? Paaasss!

[@TheDroppedAnchor]

It’s a surprise this here discussion hasn’t been moved yet to the absurdist channel or at least a comedy station.

[@zeke6099]

If this had come out in October, it might have been a well-articulated way to help people understand this perspective. But in July, this is just ignoring allllll of the more nuanced discussion that has happened since then. It takes the conversation backward, not forward.

[@RagingShrimp67]

There has been zero nuanced discussion.

[@nathanperkins5353]

38:50 "There is no such thing as a bad offer. Hurr durr."

[@nathanperkins5353]

52:15 "I definitely do Not have an ideology. I am rational. Hurr durr"

[@4ucmikey]

Israeli youtube deleted my American free speech

[@prycelessly]

That's their M.O. They cannot let truth be heard, then freedom would follow & their reign of terrorism would end.

[@RagingShrimp67]

"You keep using this word... I don't think it means what you think it means". Free speech doesn't mean anyone can say anything. Try reading about it more.

[@4ucmikey]

@@RagingShrimp67 Who decides what I can say Comrade?

[@RagingShrimp67]

@@4ucmikey The government, congress, and supreme court. I thought this was taught in schools.

[@4ucmikey]

@@RagingShrimp67 What branch of government is the Israeli lobby and ADL?

[@nathanperkins5353]

1:10:39 "Zionists definitely don't have an ideology. Hurr durr"

[@nathanperkins5353]

"Anti-Zionists are theocratic. Also, God says this land we stole was made for us by God. Hurr durr"

[@illahham]

Would you like to be held responsible instead? Should someone else besides the Israeli government be held responsible for the actions of the Israeli government?

[@tillitseac3774]

Thank you

[@nathanperkins5353]

53:10 "All peoples support all actions of their respective governments. Hurr durr"

[@nathanperkins5353]

52:30 "Did you hear that recently, Pakistan launched nuclear weapons at Iran? Pakistan nuked Iran. Why did Iran act so irrationally? Hurr durr"

[@xxxxkorayxxxx]

So is anti-Islamism Islamophobia? ;)

[@Kenneynrg]

You’re not reading bini ‘s position on the situation

[@ram09568]

Joshua 5:13 and Jeremiah 16:14-21…. Lotta folks in for very rude awakening.

[@nathanperkins5353]

42:37 "History began on Oct7. Hurr Durr"

[@everythingandmore5537]

At minute 57:00 he equates nazi taking over Europe to Hamas taking over Gaza. Weird.

[@k3el07]

Very insightful to logical thinkers, toxique to the emothionals

[@nathanperkins5353]

55:50 "Zionists like me know they are in the wrong and we wish our adversary was blindly agreeable to whatever terrible deal we offer. Hurr durr"

[@salciano]

Really disappointed. I was really expecting a better counterargument to Mearsheimer. Is this nonsense on purpose or is there really nothing better out there?

[@tariqseso]

CIS consistently challenged Mearsheimer's arguments (as it should), yet failed to provide any real attempt to refute what can categorically be described as absolute garbage coming out of Bret's mouth. The reasoning was so fundamentally flawed, it was quite frankly an insult to watch. This was really disappointing.

[@CISAus]

Thank you for this feedback. I don't think it's every a mistake to hear the opposing views, particularly when they are some of the most commonly held views. We will be doing a side by side video of Mearsheimer and Stephens with their responses to similar questions.

[@SunandarNGusti]

All nonsense BS. Just let international journalists into Gaza!

[@nathanperkins5353]

1:14:25 "Religious beliefs are definitely Not idealogical. Hurr durr"

[@SatsJava]

Unsub

[@CISAus]

You may enjoy this video more. It is the first in our debate series on the conflict in the Middle East. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oXLJeoyqpch1rtE

[@AFA80Y]

I hope these people reading the comments lol 😂 The mainstream media has failed and now they wanna spew on KZbin which is an even bigger failure

[@catherinebrennan1760]

Stubbed my toe running to the comments and felt a huge sense of relief that everyone else sees this talk as awful… I too want to be balanced and therefore listened to this one following the wonderful talk from Mearsheimer… can’t get that time back! They always use weird attempts at charm and word salad about antisemitism blah blah to distract from the evidence that Israel is committing a heinous genocide within an apartheid state. Good on CIS for giving this guy a chance to show what a tool he is.

[@Muhammad_Kham_]

What a Fraud

[@XenRA]

Though i am happy to hear the other sides opinion, the other side may either be completely and TOTALLY unhinged to the point where they are unable to see their own failings, or this guy is a disappointment of an academic. Furthermore, this interviewer just lets him go off on his rhetoric for over an hour.

[@nativeeurope1299]

Even the normies are starting to get an idea about what Israel really is. There is nothing you can do about this now unless you completely switch off all comment sections on social media and ramp up the lies by another 100 percent. But can you do that? Lets find out.

[@Evan-lx9lw]

F'ing lying title

[@Carstininvestments]

“The Jew cries out in pain as he strikes you”: Polish proverb.

[@YVM3311]

As a Jewish descendant I like to think of Jews in celebration. Not as victims . Jews survived 3000 years unlike many others who are not here today to tell their story because they’re exiled because they migrated because they adapted and because they stayed relevant and Important to societies. Unlike many many other second and third class citizens and slaves 1000 500 and 100years ago, Jews were special in the sense they managed to take on important positions of lobby with the powers to be , from kings to presidents. In a world where Catholicism in the name of a single God committed many atrocities around the entire world and committed genocide to many peoples, somehow Jews managed to survive and hold on to their believes, their values their culture. I absolutely despise the Jewish victim narrative. And in name of that narrative justify the current atrocities they’re making to another People. Israel was the last colonialism exercise. The biggest mistake made by the white European man in the Middle East. In the name of a belief that they had been there 3000 years ago they could not only return to it but clean out the land from Its local population who had pretty much been there since the Jews left…this level of arrogance is so non-Jew it repulses me… and no, the land was not empty! wonder how many lands we’d have to return to how many people to justify this concept and make justice to entire continents ? Americas, Africa, australia… Further, there is a myth that Israel was needed for a safe place where Jews could exist… ironically the exact opposite happened. Further the world has fundamentally changed since WWII. Let’s remember back then woman didn’t vote .slavery was still a reality in the Americas, Africa was still under colonialism power. Pretty much everyone but the white male was a second or third class citizen. Or worse. Jews suffered the most in the wwii but somehow we always forget about the Gypsies, the Armenians and others that also suffered genocide. Further, Israel is not a product and a consequence of the WWII. Jews were shaking hands with the Brits since the WWI and had began migrating in masses and causing havoc in the region before 1920 and all the way thru 1930’s. Ironically back then the news of terrorism attacks to factories and train stations were done by the Jews that were picking fights with the locals (the Palestinian) and the British government. Palestine was a beautiful land full of history , with vibrant ports, commerce and culture. The Brits promised the land to the local Palestinians after Byzantine empire collapsed and also to the Jews back in London. This all f’ing mess is British Colonialism fault. Moreover… there is this other story that Israelites like to talk about , the small mighty Israeli military that defeated the Arabs in 1948. Untrue. They were prepared. They knew exactly was coming and they had been learning and training with the British military back then, indeed learning from the best how to “colonize territory” … as a Jewish descendant I am appalled and ashamed of Israel formation and existance, and the cruelties done since the 30’s for sake of conquering back the sacred land that supposedly belonged to them in the first place. Most utterly ridiculous justification. And conflicting, coming from Zionist’s supposedly non religious group yet justifying their cause based in an otherwise religious belief. Non sense. The Jews didn’t need land to be safe. American Jews Australian Jews Canadian Jews you call it any country in this world Jew person will attest they don’t need Israel to feel self-identified . We can be Jews and call any nation in the world our own. And that is a sign of perseverance. That is to be celebrated. I don’t want to live in a country surrounded by other Jews. Where everyone other than white Jews is indeed treated like second class citizens . Yup even the Sephardic Arab Jews (non white) are not exactly the same. They too are second class citizens. That’s the true. Israel is the most racist country on earth. created by white Jews from Europe and further colonized by ignorante white Americans that have the arrogance to literally migrate to the west bank and proceeded to take homes from the Palestinians… makes my stomach turn in agony . Jews just needed to be respected and accepted . The world changed since 1945. The Middle East would be completely different today and so would western views of it and relationships with it, if Israel had not been formed. Cruel and deadly mistake. Israel should have never been formed . With that said , it’s there today and only time , lots of hit, Perhaps hundreds of years will eventually settle this grave mistake .

[@CISAus]

Thank you for sharing. This is very well and passionately articulated. I hope others in this comment section find your response to the video.

[@ancientsymbol]

Can’t listen sorry not sorry

[@CISAus]

You may enjoy this video instead. It is the first in our debate series on the conflict in the Middle East. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oXLJeoyqpch1rtE

[@nathanperkins5353]

1:12:10 "USA has never caused terrorist organizations to manifest. Hurr durr"

[@static825]

October 5

[@lucabriatore7891]

Look a satellite picture of Gaza. Then try to explain how you dare calling it defense. Shame on you.

[@CISAus]

You may enjoy this video. It is the first in our debate series on the conflict in the Middle East. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oXLJeoyqpch1rtE

[@Fterrr273]

Did he think the comparison with Sudan was a mic drop moment? Not ONCE does he mention the atrocities committed by IDF or even attempt at nuancing his point of view. I came in expecting to be intellectually challenged and stimulated but his points are complete bogus. This is embarrassing for this channel.

[@Fterrr273]

It’s the « israel has supplied gaza with water and electricity ». as if you deserve a pat on the back for that?? Why do you control their supply in the first place? It doesn’t help your case buddy

[@CISAus]

You may enjoy this video. It is the first in our debate series on the conflict in the Middle East. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oXLJeoyqpch1rtE

[@zeke6099]

huh, weird propaganda. these points should definitely involve a lot more nuance than they were given. lost a subscriber.

[@CISAus]

You may enjoy this video. It is the first in our debate series on the conflict in the Middle East. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oXLJeoyqpch1rtE

[@Sandokan_of_Earth]

Every serious viewer will find this interview embarrassingly disingenuous and propagandistic

[@Sejo088]

"Journalist" used to mean something else before. Unsubscribing as well..

[@larseriksson5109]

Lol - this has very few views. Not a surprise.

[@CISAus]

You may enjoy this video. It is the first in our debate series on the conflict in the Middle East. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oXLJeoyqpch1rtE

[@danleckie9815]

I can’t watch this…

[@CISAus]

You may enjoy this video. It is the first in our debate series on the conflict in the Middle East. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oXLJeoyqpch1rtE

[@nathanperkins5353]

42:45 "Isreal has Zero military facilities placed amongst Israeli civilian populations. Hurr Durr"

[@786Plotinus]

CIS, you have interesting stuff to listen to, but this was pure shameles propaganda.

[@CISAus]

Bret presented some of the most common and strongest arguments in favour of zionism. We think that has value.

[@786Plotinus]

@@CISAus The Problem is that when it comes to Israel, many on the right(conservatives) just seem to lose all objectivity.

[@diaaaljuneidi7553]

Disgusting

[@dennisbeauchamp1803]

I may disagree with some Bret's points, but I respect his intelligent commentary.

[@JanitorScruffy]

1 hour and 23 minutes of being a shabbo.

[@GriffGC]

This guy’s a hack