Student tells vegan "killing yourself is the moral obligation" | DEBATE A VEGAN

[@ed.winters]

Do you think I made any progress with Joey by the end? 🌱 Become a monthly or one-off supporter of my work at universities (thank you so much!): earthlinged.org/support 📚 My debut book This is Vegan Propaganda (& Other Lies the Meat Industry Tells You) is out now! Order your copy here: earthlinged.org/orderbook 🎤 Organise a speech or presentation at your company/education establishment: earthlinged.org/contact

[@KT-pu3gn]

The kid came with the idea that he was going to leave you thinking but it was the other way around, he might make a change he might not. All we can do is spread a positive message :)

[@JD-FIES]

I think he thought he got you but he didn’t

[@portaltechnology32]

He scares me because he is kind of speaking for a large segment of the population. It's this auto pilot, going off momentum behavior that scares me when I think of the future of this world.

[@portaltechnology32]

I don't think he will change.

[@ThingsYoudontwanttohear]

He looked uncomfortable. I was amused. He might reduce his intake of animal products. His suicide argument reminded me of the discussion you had with Cosmic Skeptic some time ago.

[@MrMhall1]

Ed is definitely the most entertaining activist to hear. He makes these people look so daft and never gets rattled by stupid comments said to him. I wish i could be as good as him

[@audreym7119]

practice practice practice :)

[@agadooska]

I'm sure you'll have many opportunities to practice ;)

[@MrMhall1]

@@agadooska i do it seems like older people i spoke to lack morality more than the younger 1s

[@agadooska]

@@MrMhall1 I don't think the older people are less moral, but I guess the older we are the less we are opened to changing our views, especially when it comes to the ethical subjects. It's hard to acknowledge that you lived the most of your life doing immoral things, denial seems the less disturbing option.

[@MrMhall1]

@@agadooska but realistically isn't killing a innocent being wrong. It seems like common sense but i tend to get abused more often from older people if talking about it

[@genericusername337]

I think the thing that this person needed to be asked at the end is, "Do you really not have enough faith in your own character that even though you believe that something would make you a better person, that you are too weak to achieve it?" That's the question I asked myself when I went vegan. I felt ashamed to admit that I was completely convinced but that I myself was the weak link, too lazy and weak in willpower to change myself.

[@lastlime3792]

Being a vegan is weakness. You kill animals and don’t eat them, but bash people that kill animals and eat them🙄. Far more actual suffering and destruction of the world by veganism than someone who eats meat(I get you don’t understand and don’t understand how humans process foods and which foods are utilized the best) maybe put you ideals and research and eat to see what’s made up and what’s realty.

[@noone-ld7pt]

Hey so firstly; meat eater here. I found this an interesting argument. I've watched a lot of Eds videos and must say that I've come to agree that the going vegan would be the moral thing to do. I'd also agree that going vegan would (at least to some extent) make me a better person. But here is where we differ, I feel absolutely no shame in admitting that I personally just don't care enough to become vegan. And though I realize that I probably should feel shame about it, I just don't. And I am certain that going vegan is something i could manage to do if it was something I actually wanted enough, but I just don't have that strong of a desire to become a "better person" to be brutally honest. Any suggestions on how to deal with this?

[@applepielofi]

​@@noone-ld7pt Hey not the OP but just wanted to say thank you for watching this video. It really speaks to your open mindedness and curiosity! As for your question, I would just try to check out some footage of what really goes on in the animal agriculture industry. That way if you still make the decision to eat meat, you can at least be sure that you know exactly what youre supporting. The film "Dominion" is excellent for showing the reality of the process (be warned, it is actual footage). I was similar to you before I went vegan and once I started researching the topic and learning what I was paying for, I literally couldnt do it anymore. Another good documentary that shows the environmental impact of eating animals is "Cowspiracy". The united nations also put out a report entitled "Climate Change and Land" that you might want to check out. Good luck in your journey, no matter what you decide to do and thanks again for your curiosity!

[@menschenskinners.]

@@noone-ld7pt maybe approach it from an environmental standpoint. Fighting against climate change is not just being a better person, it's protecting yourself and your existence.

[@noone-ld7pt]

​@@menschenskinners. On this I absolutely agree, but the problem is I take more of an idividual approach. I know that I could be completely carbon neutral for the rest of my life and not even have shaved off a single second of the progression of climate change, so that doesn't really motivate me either.

[@manuelsapam]

The boy is so lost. He is speaking about morality without actually caring at all about it.

[@MrShpoulsen]

Exactly this. Why does he even bother? He sounds like a moral nihilist.

[@SourceChan]

Sounds like you're pretty lost if you don't understand the nuance and validity of Joey's "nature is cruel" argument. If plants were proven to be sentience, which they very well could (they've already been established to react to pain and display a host of intelligent behavior, whether they're sentience or not has not been established yet and is still under research), would you rather starve to death than eat plants? If not, are you now a hypocrite, the kind of person that would sit in the chair that Joey was sitting in just moments ago, defending your right to eat sentient plants for your own selfish reasons?

[@manuba_]

@@SourceChan 1. eating animals products is imoral BECAUSE we have another option, since there isn't any necessity to consume them for survival. But we DO need to eat plants, so it really doesn't matter since we don't have a choice. It is not selfish nor imoral to do what you need to survive 2. By eating meat, dairy etc. you are "killing" far more plants than you would be if you only ate plants.

[@SourceChan]

@@manuba_ You didn't answer my question. If plants were sentient, would you still eat plants? Would we not be morally obligated to kill ourselves if plants were sentient? The point is it's actually a very good argument/question, it has the potential to clarify a lot of moral issues in general, the world isn't as simple as "just do this and you're just like Jesus!", I already am vegan so I don't need to hear all the little facts about plants and animals and all of this, the point is Joey probably didn't know anything about Veganism, if our goal is to get him to become Vegan, we shouldn't be condescending jerks, we (including Ed) should be teaching him more about Veganism when he seems curious; we need more discussion and conversations, not less. Here's a simple example of your own hypocrisy. Are you on your own computer right now? Do you buy clothes? Do you have any other electronics? Do you pay taxes? Etc etc. All of these things either involve slavery or support negative causes (like the subsidization of animal farming), so why do you engage in them? They're definitely not necessary, you're able to make it in life without any of them. So why don't you? After all, you're "morally obligated" to minimize suffering, right?

[@ideas2021]

@@SourceChan "if plants were sentient" well that has not been proven yet. That question is really easy to answer. Do you see plants run for their lives? Do you see them scream in pain? Do they get hurt? These questions can't be answered, but one thing's for sure, animals run for their lives, they scream in pain, they get hurt. Just that fact is enough reason for me to think that people should stop abusing them. About plants, it's not something we could confirm, the fact that you guys worry that plants can feel pain, but doesn't care about animals that OBVIOUSLY does is straight up hypocritical.

[@jeremyallen5056]

Always joyous watching the ultimate discomfort of someone trying to be clever when quite honestly Ed has it sewn up in the first minute.

[@SourceChan]

If anyone was trying to be clever here it was Ed. Not only isn't nature morally neutral, it's morally abstinent, same for a psychopath, all he did here was cut the conversation short because he's more interested in protecting his own ego than having a human 1 to 1 conversation and convincing people to actually join his cause through the character of his heart and the validity of his arguments, not by cutting the interview off asap because the guy knows absolutely nothing about veganism and is just trying to explore the subject.

[@gay_dentists]

@@SourceChan this is not a very smart comment

[@SourceChan]

@@gay_dentists You're right, "this is not a very smart comment" is not a very smart comment, thanks for giving it your best though.

[@ideas2021]

@@SourceChan he knew it was a debate yet he still argued despite having no knowledge about veganism, he tried so hard to convince that ed's moral take is wrong yet failed cause all his arguments are nonsensical just like in every other vegan debates, who's trying to be clever now?🤣

[@SourceChan]

@@ideas2021 Ed's channel is supposed to be a veganism education channel, not Steven Crowder destroys teenagers at school for KZbin clicks v2, don't you agree? Ed isn't even a good debater for that matter, and the whole point with inviting RANDOM people to a debate is to have an interesting discussion, again unless you're just Steven Crowder trying to dunk on some kids for KZbin points, in which case this channel probably isn't for me, even though I'm vegan, and I should probably start publicly advocating against it since most people already know Crowder is a con artist, but people doesn't know that Ed is one as well.

[@tobbs5410]

'I think existence is immoral and killing yourself is a moral obligation' CRAAAWWWWLING IN MY SKINNNN

[@hm9181]

Completely!! 🥴

[@NinjaN30]

🤣🤣🤣

[@johnbaker5828]

There actually is a logical moral argument for humans to commit mass suicide. That would leave the natural world in its purest state. However, some vegans are becoming interested in the morality of the natural world as well. Some hope for humans to evolve to veganism and also increasingly minimize suffering of animals in the wild. I guess that will never happen if there are no humans, so perhaps mass suicide / extinction of humans is not in the best interests of all species in the long term. Of course to end all suffering we could just nuke the planet as soon as possible. These arguments are fascinating, but ultimately are reductiones ad absurdum.

[@happilyeverafterhanna]

SAME!!! It’s the grossest thing I’ve heard in my entire life!🤢 this boy has clearly never known the pain that brings people to the point of doing *that*

[@tobbs5410]

@@johnbaker5828 My suicide note will say 'I'm doing a service for everybody.'

[@Fizzbuzzbizzfuzz2]

there's no argument to be had, killing a feeling being is wrong. Just admit you don't care and like how they taste, that's at least honest and grounds for discussion.

[@x-latetv-x6816]

Why is it wrong because you say, are you the boss running this world or sumin

[@Kermunist]

@@x-latetv-x6816 No, because everyone with empathy knows this.

[@Kermunist]

@@TheWraith7 You didn’t even watch the video apparently because they go over this almost immediately.

[@x-latetv-x6816]

@@Kermunist apparently not unless you are saying 99% of the planet lack empathy

[@Kermunist]

@@x-latetv-x6816 No, most people would say that they think suffering and animal cruelty is wrong, but due to cognitive dissonance, rationalize their immoral behavior.

[@luabeth7520]

I love the way he always gestures at the table like he's showing us a huge vegan cheese board

[@fabygoo]

THATS MY LEAST FAVOURITE THING… but you just gave it a new light. Thank you. 🤣🤣🤣

[@learningtofly1404]

I want a vegan cheese board now!!

[@lastlime3792]

He’s actually just counting his money he’s getting from corporations.

[@Mariqitaa]

He just needs a whiteboard and pen to write/draw some ideas!! Love him

[@scslre]

​@@learningtofly1404no. no, you don't.

[@quel3301]

Definitely sounds like he didn't think through his arguments but it takes a lot of courage to go debate someone against Ed who is very well articulated and knows how to get a person to face their contradictions and bias.

[@pinkbunnypeepsyall8251]

i agree, and that’s what makes the “student debates” videos kind of cringe-it’s not a debate bc they are not equally articulated, but it is a very very good conversation. :)

[@tameshrew469]

most meat eaters dont think through their arguments because its something they usually know is basically indefensible

[@pinkbunnypeepsyall8251]

@@tameshrew469 yeah it’s indefensible in a debate about morality. there are other reasons to be vegan, but it always seems to come down to morals

[@ax9236]

But veganism has its own contradictions and biases. For me, veganism is never convincing enough because it is essentially an ideology underpinned by anthropomorphism. There is no way yet to show that animals feel pain as humans do, or that their reactions to external stimulation are of the same sort as humans. The definition of pain itself is created, and yet pain may be interpreted and experienced differently even among humans, such as sadomasochists who read the feeling that other people dislike as an enjoyment. And building upon this foundation, veganism defines its own moral standards that they see as universal and continuous. Therefore, there will be no meaningful discussion under the system of veganism as you will always be accused of immorality unless you yield to their created "truths".

[@FortisV]

@@ax9236 Late reply: what you're saying is correct, but we can make reasonable inferences. You can't show that another human being feels pain the same way you do or even consciousness for that matter. The idea of solipsism or the philosophical zombie. But since I have the same physical parts as my fellow human, we make the assumption that they experience things similar to you. Why doesn't that inference then follow to non-human animals? Especially when we can grant that they have more or less the same physical parts we do and that we are all related by a common ancestor?

[@speedracer9132]

That guy’s body language speaks volumes about how uncomfortable he is when Ed explains his logical fallacies

[@donnad7426]

Very noticeable

[@SourceChan]

Yeah, definitely nothing awkward about how condescending and dismissive Ed was in this conversation and tried to cut the conversation off at 10 minute because he's more interested in defending his own ego and reputation than doing proper civilized advocacy.

[@DanielAAvila-bo7sy]

@@SourceChan ?????

[@pacmanmcgavin5980]

@@SourceChan I own you little fella

[@mitsukitai2713]

​@@SourceChanno the student was clearly talking in circles and Ed realized there's no point discussion this with him because of it.

[@alexatwater1961]

Oh bless these college students with their extensive life experience, doing mental acrobatics to justify their societal conditioning.

[@honeypie_hails9401]

LITERALLY

[@SourceChan]

You're definitely not socially conditioned, that's for sure, you carry that moral superiority card with absolutely no bias don't you

[@pacmanmcgavin5980]

@@SourceChan I am both smarter and better looking than you

[@lastlime3792]

Vegans kill animals/bugs/insects and don’t eat them...superior morality at is finest🤮

[@pacmanmcgavin5980]

@@lastlime3792 vegans contribute to significantly less deaths all Around including bugs. It’s not about eliminating suffering that is impossible. It’s about reducing it as much as possible and that’s exactly what we’re doing. You don’t actually think you’re the first person to come at us with the “cRoP dEaThS tHo” argument do you?

[@dustyboi8975]

This is like saying “I should be allowed to murder people because everyone drives over the speed limit sometimes. We all break the law bro!”

[@ShutUpWesley]

Never trust a servent of Tzeentch. You never know when they _change_ from one side to the other😜

[@honeypie_hails9401]

To me its like saying "it’s okay to cause suffering because being alive causing suffering in itself." but in reality caring for yourself and having basic human necessities is our right. It’s simply what everyone deserves. We are alive because of very specific circumstances that could’ve easily been tainted, and we wouldn’t be here. I believe there’s a reason for that. So; we all have a right to exist, but we can make choices that give our existence more worth like reducing suffering for others. That is basic empathy. Just because our existence may be an inconvenience for someone else, it’s by no means a reason to not be alive, but a reason we should do better to get closer to a world where it doesn’t :)

[@SourceChan]

It's not, we murder plants, meat eaters murder animals, it's actually a great topic of discussion with a lot of nuance, which is why I only see NPC comments in this video's comment section, I mean more than any other video before, trying to dumb the argument down or call it "bizarre" because they don't know how to process the topic without their tiny Intel Pentium CPU brain from melting. If you only had the option between eating grass, eating insects, or eating animals (you could survive on all 3, but hypothetically you would need at least 50g of protein a day to maintain basic muscle mass and animals had twice the protein density of insects, insects twice the protein density of grass, and lets say you would only get about 15-20g of protein a day from grass). Which would you eat? It's a great argument reflecting very good reasoning skills for someone who doesn't know much about veganism. Of course in the real world it's not that hard to get enough protein on a vegan diet, but newcomers doesn't know that, and you can still construct string hypotheticals with this that resembles reality quite a lot and understand the difficulty of a view like veganism, especially if you take it further. For example lets say Plants are sentient. It's actually very likely that they are, scientists themselves doesn't know one way or the other, it's still a subject of discussion and research, however they have concluded that plants are definitely intelligent, again this isn't a hypothetical, this is real, the only hypothetical we're going to construct here is that plants are IN FACT sentient. Now what? Are you going to stop eating plants?

[@stdmid]

@@SourceChan Just read an article the other day shared by a guy who is loud and pround to be anti-vegan. It was written by a botanist about plants communication systems and towards the end of the article he stated quite clearly plants don't think and can't feel pain. I can only assume he read the title but not the article because it was the opposite to what he was trying to claim. I have never seen a scientific article that concludes plants are sentient although it is a common claimed opinion from non-vegans that I struggle to take seriously. It has been adressed many times over and even if plants were sentient the least suffering inflicted would still be a vegan diet. Have a look at this kzbin.info/www/bejne/e6K4d6SXmr90aMk

[@SourceChan]

@@stdmid Unfortunately that's absolutely and completely wrong. I'm assuming the error you're making is judging the lack of evidence of a claim for being evidence against the contrary. Lets say I said the sky is sometimes blue, and I said water is kinda blue and maybe that's why the sky is blue when it's blue; that's my evidence. That evidence may be bad evidence and not proving my claim, but that doesn't mean the sky isn't blue sometimes, insufficient evidence is not evidence against the position. I don't know what you're linking to, but if it doesn't have a timestamp I'm not going to click it, it should be specific enough that I can see what you're trying to show me within seconds, from everything I've read plant sentience is still a topic of research and debate, we used to assume for the longest time that animals had no sentience as well, like "literally forever" (for as long as we've existed up only until the last century or so), but there's no overwhelmingly strong case against plant sentience that I'm aware of, if you are let me know (I also can't provide links outside of youtube on here without getting my comments deleted (applies to everyone), so I suggest adding me on discord or something if you want to have a further discussion about evidence etc).

[@BeingDaphne]

that kid is "suffering" during this conversation 😅 Ed always has a calm cool response to even the most bizarre arguments.

[@GeddyRC]

Ed is one of very few vegan activists where I don't get fired up watching him debate people because I know he'll be calm and collected the entire time, while obliterating any nonsense from the other side. That's why he's the Vegan Jesus!

[@agadooska]

Oh dear, Ed just caused suffering to another sentient being... Poor thing didn't realise what he's going into 😂

[@SourceChan]

Sorry, what was so bizarre about this conversation or Joey's point. Can you give me a single example? Do you literally have 0 understanding of how someone with no knowledge about Veganism (or vegan food) is skeptical about only eating vegetables for the rest of their lives because some guy on the streets with a youtube channel tells you "it's the morally right thing to do"? Would you go vegan if you could live off and could ONLY live off grass for the rest of your life, even though your body would be suffering? Do you understand that this is literally how people are indoctrinated to think about veganism, or are you literally a mindless NPC drone?

[@levi3229]

@@SourceChan Why did Joey went to that table then? It was his own choice starting that debate, he even said he had no clue about the farming industry so it goes both ways tbh. The problem is that people dont inform themselves with valid sources and then start debating about something

[@SourceChan]

@@levi3229 To have a conversation/discussion. Why does Ed go up to highschool and colleges to challenge a bunch of teenagers to debate? Are you saying he's just doing the same thing as that conservative I never remember the name of who goes up to schools to dunk on kids for his youtube channel? If so I'm completely dropping my support for Ed, I thought his channel was supposed to be about education and conversation.

[@bunningtonhevy]

This is like a verbal game of chess. Ed's debate skills are just growing and growing every new video 👌

[@ievaievaieva]

Exactly, right? 🙌 I adore Ed and his debate skills, truly. Could listen to him all day long and continue being in awe of how graceful and calm he is able to remain no matter the circumstance

[@Darmok_onthe_ocean]

I think this guy was just exceptionally uneducated and thoughtless

[@ievaievaieva]

@@Darmok_onthe_ocean I entirely agree, yet the larger diversity of senseless arguments Ed encounters, the further his mind reaches for new routes of thought, which ultimately only adds to the abundance and mobility of his responses

[@mulligatawnysoup9281]

@@ievaievaieva Yes but he isn´t quite as patient as he used to be . 🙂

[@iraidasantana444]

Absolutely! Ed was playing chess, and the student was playing checkers.

[@Atomik91400]

Kudos to Joey for being intellectually honest enough to admit that his dietary choices are less moral than the vegan diet, and for at least considering the possibility of going vegan. A lot of people Ed talks to don't get anywhere close to this.

[@voxtur__7]

Everyone knows deep down that eating animal products is unethical. This is why they go for the so-called ‘free range’ products or products that guarantee the ‘well-being’ of their animals. However, there is just SOMETHING that actually prevents them from going vegan. That something is a web of fallacies, dissonances & misunderstandings that the society perpetuates. Individuals love to lean on to them, so long as the fallacies help them conceal their conflict. Most of the people who debate Ed just reiterate the same dissonances, showing how much they use them to shield them from the guilt of their conscience. This just makes them go around in spirals around the same lame ‘argument’, instead of just admitting that what they do is harmful for everyone, but they don't care, because deep down, they do. From a psychology student's standpoint, this is such a good example of the extent to which the society can shape its individuals' mentality. This is why the human race has a LOT to learn as a society.

[@Hubcool367]

Daniel, I totally agree. I don't know about other vegans, but at the end of the day, while it would be amazing that after a debate someone would become vegan on the spot, literally all we're asking is to acknowledge that not harming animals is possible and/or preferable to harming them. If you acknowledge that but say "but I don't feel like doing it right now" or some other platitude, that's actually "fine". We all do it for some stuff we know better about, like keeping buying from sweatshop brands, keeping owning cars, etc. The infuriating thing about non/anti-vegans is when they try to rationalize it's either all the same, or consuming animal products is better. It's like someone saying a car is no worse or more environmentally friendly than a bike. Keep using your car (for now) because of whatever reason while at the same time acknowledging a switch to a bike is leagues better. But don't be "anti-bike", that's ridiculously silly. I hope my rambling makes any kind of sense haha

[@Atomik91400]

@@Hubcool367 right, and you could see the inclination towards either those sorts of equivocation fallacies, or the "all or nothing" argument during the discussion. While many people around the world choose to drive vehicles for a multitude of reasons (e.g. I don't live in an urban area and the PHEV and EV that currently available within my local market are currently out of my price range), these same people can be vegan, and use their vehicle judiciously, while opting for other means of transportation when it makes more sense, including walking lol Also, the assertion that we have a moral obligation to kill ourselves can be viewed as an extreme version of altruism that can easily get contradictory for the following reasons: 1. if the aim is maximizing well-being, then death, that is by definition the absence of being, cannot maximize well-being, and 2. if it is a moral obligation for one to kill oneself for others to leave more resources, then why would it not apply to the "others" as well? Are we trying to leave more for others, or just advocating for non-existence in general? If it is the latter, than the "leaving resources for others" notion is irrelevant.

[@Atomik91400]

@@voxtur__7 the fact that it has been normalized for so long means that most people go on with their lives with little or no thought about the subject. And when they do, and the cognitive dissonance kicks in, it is almost a reflex to rationalize first, since it is normalized. Been there, done that.

[@rusokana3642]

@@voxtur__7 still doesn’t solve the issue.

[@MiadeHaan]

He was just going round and round in circles with the “killing yourself” argument😂 he should’ve just been honest and said “I don’t want to be vegan because I don’t care enough”

[@Tea_princess]

I don't think he doesn't care though, he is just used to switching of his morality when it comes to eating, because it is what a majority of the population do. He clearly was uncomfortable and I think he realized this issue during the conversation.

[@MiadeHaan]

@@Tea_princess good point, I was being a bit hostile😂

[@harveyplantharvester1502]

@@Tea_princess Of course he doesn't care enough. If he cared more he'd actually DO something about it.

[@rahtsnake144]

have to maintain the facade of being a decent person so society doesn't shun him

[@anulfolantigua6291]

Maybe is proyection and he is depress

[@Dynan117]

No one can beat Ed because he's brilliant and he's correct.

[@SickSkilz]

How is he "correct"? The opinion that it is not ok to eat or wear animals, but acceptable to subjugate them in every other aspect of life is just that... an opinion

[@AbraGaming]

actually no one can beat him because there just isn't a valid argument against veganism. You don't even need to be brilliant to destroy most of these arguments

[@SickSkilz]

@@AbraGaming No valid argument? OK. i don't consider animals or plants to be of the same moral value as humans. FWIW I don't think vegans do either, but we both select different levels of subjugation of animals is acceptable.

[@AbraGaming]

@@SickSkilz Personally I think any animal has more moral value than something like a cigarette smoker. Also idk what you mean by levels of subjugation

[@SickSkilz]

@@AbraGaming Well for instance vegans don't eat or wear animal products, but generally accept animals killed in agriculture because growing ones own food is inconvenient. Vegans also generally accept that human housing, roads, and infrastructure is worth the impact to animals because living off the grid is not acceptable. Put bluntly, vegans are more tolerant of animal victimization they don't have to see.

[@annala2956]

I wish I was as level headed and calm when discussing issues as Ed is. I appreciate your work so much!

[@happilyeverafterhanna]

Same! Ed’s level headedness is incredible!🙌🏻 I’m a bit jealous honestly😂

[@kittyfluffins]

I’ve been there, I get it. He knows it’s wrong going into the conversation and now he’s rationalizing in any way he can to make himself feel better about it. Good talk.

[@GeddyRC]

We were all there at some point man, it's what we do after we realize it that matters. It's that mindset, "obviously _I_ can't be contributing to something terrible, there has to be some good reason in the universe that I and everyone I know has to keep causing this every single day" "It can't be THAT bad, else why would everyone else do it?" "how could I possibly never eat an animal product again? It's just a part of my normal routine" etc etc the excuses never stop. And again, I was the same way. It's tough not to get extremely frustrated but after years of hearing the same 6-7 excuses from my unhealthy family members it's absolutely enraging at this point. The way Earthling Ed and others like him keep a level head makes him nothing short of a saint.

[@SourceChan]

What a stupid take. Are you aware that scientists haven't determined yet whether plants are actually sentient or not? It's been established that they react to pain, and that they display highly intelligent behavior, but just like we were ignorant about animal sentience in the past, we are now ignorant about plant sentience (fortunately moderm science doesn't jump to conclusions like we did in the past). Now lets make a tiny hypothetical leap by saying that plants are in fact sentient. What now? Are you going to continue eating plants for your own survival, on their detriment, be the hypocrite you just laughed at Joey for being while now sitting in the very same seat defending your own right to kill others for survival, or would you follow the reason of "moral obligations" to the further extent possible and end it all because vegan-man on Internet told you to?

[@kittyfluffins]

@@SourceChan It’s ok to kill if it’s necessary for survival. This is why self defense is morally acceptable, for example. If plants could suffer then I would still be vegan because it would still reduce suffering compared to eating animals. This is because feeding livestock requires more plants to be killed than just eating the plants directly.

[@SourceChan]

@@kittyfluffins According to who? Self defense is different, you're not defending yourself against plants, you're farming, killing and eating them, just like you would with animals. Your second point is true, but irrelevant, life is more complicating than just eating. Are you using your own computer right now? Has slavery been involved in the development of that? Undoubtedly. So why did you get it? Was it absolutely necessary for your survival? I highly doubt it. Just like farmers can "always just get another job", you could just get a different job where no use of computers is necessary, like most labor jobs. But you choose not to, why? Out of selfishness, just like Joey, and if you're going to respond with any kind of substance to this argument your next move is going to be to rationalize your view any way you can just like you accused Joey of, even though ironically enough I don't think he's guilty, I think you are, but Joey just seemed interested in having a conversation and exploring different possibilities and ideas, which I'm sorry if it confused you or struck a nerve, but is not a crime, thinking and asking questions is actually a good thing, you should try it sometime.

[@kittyfluffins]

@@SourceChan The point of the self defense example is to show something where most people agree it’s ok to kill since it’s necessary. If we can survive without the need for killing any life then that would be preferable, but since we have to eat to live then farming and killing plants is necessary and therefore acceptable. (Although I don’t agree that plants can suffer, I’m just playing along with your hypothetical). If I was shopping for a computer and there was a label that easily distinguished which computers were built with slavery, then I would buy the ones that did not use slavery. You’re right, it can be complicated to find products that were ethically made, but with food we can easily identify which products were created by harming animals. Joey was rationalizing because he knew the behavior was wrong but he was trying to find a reason to make it more acceptable. I disagree that buying computers is morally wrong so this isn’t rationalizing.

[@Eamons85]

When Ed starts doing actions with his hand on the table you know someone is being told some facts 👌

[@MathEnergyTV]

💯😂

[@lastlime3792]

Like what? He pointed out that veganism is immoral....Ed’s 13min was concluded with Ed agreeing that’s fact🤯 wow what kind of sand you you keep yours head in?

[@justinoo777]

i hate when he does that

[@Now4extinction]

​@@lastlime3792 veganism is more ethical than choosing non-vegan 🤯 therefore preferable to choose less immoral choice - We Should Be Vegan From The Baseline

[@vooveks]

Or he's using body language to add weight to a bad argument maybe?

[@RyanCowan]

It's such an inspiration watching these videos. No matter what anyone throws at Ed, he always has such a well considered response. He has every argument covered.

[@retroklub_tv]

I'm absolutely fiending to sit down and speak with this man. I am vegan, but have so many questions that I NEVER hear people ask him that I want his opinion!! I literally have a note in my phone with all the questions I have for him

[@kattihatt]

Shoot.

[@jonflowers5022]

What are your questions?

[@doraivezic808]

Try sending him. Maybe he would be interested in responding to them in a video. I myself cannot think of any questions he hasn't answered yet in his videos, podcasts etc.

[@anti-ethniccleansing465]

@@jonflowers5022 Here would be one of my questions... It would be great if someone made videos about how to make vegan meals that are quick to make (besides peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and beans on toast), and are also cheap but fulfill all of the nutritional requirements we need. My question is whether or not Ed would be interested in doing that. I am a vegetarian, but I am also disabled from a disastrous back surgery, and thus cannot stand in the kitchen very long to make meals. The two main factors that keep me from transitioning from vegetarianism to veganism is the fact that vegan meals usually take a lot longer to make to get the amount of nutrition/calories I need, and that it also ends up costing more for substitutes… For example, vegan Parmesan cheese costs about twice as much as the real thing, even though I get the kind of dairy cheese that doesn’t have animal rennet in it. People who make their own cheese are either using expensive ingredients like cashews, or they use ingredients that would never work for making something like fettuccine alfredo (and they both take a long to make versus simply buying it from the store). I live on a very limited budget because of my disability, so price is a _BIG_ factor on top of not being able to stand in the kitchen for very long.

[@LuneLuan]

@@anti-ethniccleansing465 this is why I fucking hate vegetarians and their sob stories.

[@apollohermano8501]

This has been my experience during lunch at work with a coworker. You were much more patient than me. Thank you Ed. It feels impossible to get through to those who don’t care about morality but you give me the fire to keep going.

[@user-in5ru2cd9l]

You say you care say about morality? Lets see if you care about morality: are you pro-life or pro-killing of a baby (aka abortion)?

[@lastlime3792]

Ed just said he doesn’t care about morality...you have a scale of morality and you choose to do it to sell books.... he can buy pills and not kill animals/bugs/insects/pollute the planet with chemicals/kill plants....You don’t have to exist you don’t have to kill anything that living with modern science...but please tell me how you are morally better than someone that eats something living is better than someone else who eats something living🤧

[@nemo2341000]

My argument would be with Morality itself. You have a Subjective view of Morality (Morals Subject to change) and Objective Morality (Morals that are given By a Moral Law Giver, and NOT Subject to change). There are very strong arguments that a subjective view of Morality cannot exist, without a Moral Law Giver. Second, your Subjective view of Morality, DOES NOT magically cancel out my Objective one. I believe Animals are a resource and are not as valuable as Humans.

[@VeganWellnessTribe]

“We’re not going round in circles. You’re contradicting yourself. You just said one is morally preferable and now you’re saying they’re morally comparable. But they’re not morally comparable. You and I have just established that.” Thank you for leading and living by your example Ed. Thank you for your patience.

[@vasisimari92058]

Well emphasized! 👍

[@munkyfatt]

"I'm a really lazy person" 🤣 what a one liner to finish that painful conversation...!

[@VerdantJedi]

Indeed....

[@SourceChan]

Hahahahaha yeah that's unbelievable, omg, first he said it's a moral obligation to kys, then he said he's lazy, omg, hahahaha, that's really funny, crazy, hahahahaha.

[@lastlime3792]

Very painful to try Ed debate a better nor morally just argument...13min of Ed trying to justify his immorality and superiority of killing Animals for fun and hating those that eat meat for nutrients.

[@veelam]

“I like meat. I don’t care.” It always comes down to this.

[@vgloveforlife]

Very true.

[@bradleyperry1735]

Or that animals don’t have the moral standing of human beings, so their death is not moral or immoral.

[@4000marcdman]

Always never a reason given why we should care.

[@tranhuy6038]

​@@4000marcdmanyou don't have to care to stop killing animals. I don't give a crap about anyone, that however doesn't give me the right to go out and murder people.

[@David-kx7tz]

@@4000marcdmanUnnecessary suffering is something you should care about. Pretty basic.

[@ShadowZZZ]

Remember the spongebob meme where man ray build up logical premises when talking to patrick, and patrick agrees all the time, but just disagrees with the logical conclusion?

[@pockydust3404]

LOOOOOOL

[@pianoman159]

Like Brian teaching Stewey how to pronounce "cool whip" he pronounces each individual word correctly and when he puts them together he says "cool hwhip"🤣

[@lunchmoneylux]

I WAS THINKING THE SAME THING

[@DasRL]

Im here for this deconstruction of that scene

[@pianoman159]

You can see the cognitive dissonance affecting him physically, he is squirming in the chair😲

[@JustinViola]

I know right XD his body language in general made his real intentions and real thoughts way too obvious.

[@DominionMovementDotOrg]

it’s like watching an exorcism or something

[@Luftgitarrenprofi]

I do that and it has nothing to do with how valid or sound my arguments are. It's social anxiety in my case, but could be a range of things. He also did this from the beginning before the conversation really took off.

[@SourceChan]

Because Ed is being condescending, fake and dismissive af. He starts the interview by nitpicking about "moral neutrality" fallaciously; nature isn't morally neutral, it's just not a moral agent, some mentally ill people are also not considered moral agents, does that mean if they kill someone it's a morally neutral act? What an obnoxiously stupid take. Then towards the end to make it short in 13:02, play this in slow motion and notice Ed's body language, he's simultaneously going thumb up, pretending to be polite and nice, while having a frowny indignant kind of expression on his face. Both people's facial expressions and body language says it all, they're both very awkward because Joey was expecting more good faith/less bad faith points from Ed, and Ed just cuts it short and refuses to engage Joey's arguments charitably, so it's really just a very awkward interview. Of course, if you're really just a NPC that will deep throat any celeb man for some thumbs up then you're just going to spew NPC talking points over and over for your own narcissism's sake instead of actually trying to evaluate the objective situation of anything ever, in which case you're lost and should honestly just end it like Joey said. Cheers.

[@lastlime3792]

If you had do debate a guy selling books to morons... eating meat is morally wrong, tries to debate a guy who says killing anything is morally wrong....Ed’s conclusion is no I’m morally vegan but my book and buy corporate vegetables🤡

[@shaunoc1]

Ed's patience and clarity of thought is like a super power.

[@ΑντώνηςΘεοδωρόπουλος]

10:30 the guy in the backround fighting with the hammock x'D

[@jimmypandolfo4035]

Hello , How fortunate is the world to have a Genius like Ed . His Psychology, Demur and passion is just out of this world ! Thankyou Ed ❤️

[@ShadowZZZ]

I have immense respect for your patience Ed! Please just never stop, you're making the world truly a better place, one by one.

[@jameszivai1481]

Ed has a million ways to ask the same question to try and “cure” his cognitive dissonance 😂

[@chadpopulisjr243]

I'm sorry, but the entire statement "To be alive is immoral" is such a stretch or just wrong. Anyone out there dealing with feeling lost in the world, do not take his words at truth. Your life matters. Life is beautiful and just. This is the beginning of nihilism and sociopathic mindsets.

[@noah8236]

I find it very lovely that you took your time to emphasize this, giving a shoutout to all those folks who find themselves in some dark places. Thank you for this! I admittedly have my difficulties to fully agree with your statement, especially that life would be just, yet life is definitely more than just pain and suffering. And living itself is not immoral a priori.

[@chike3485]

I understand the point he is trying to make. A lot of things we do impacts our surrounding and the animals/insects around us. Building houses/structures, farming, technology etc lead to deaths of many insects/animals. It almost seems as if we can’t do anything without causing harm to somebody else. Someone (Michael Smith - The Present) argued it’s all balanced. So every conscious being( human or animal) would get the same amount of pleasure and pain. This means that our consciousness can manifest in any fleshly form (human or animal) to reap pleasure or pain.

[@xShikari]

Depression and suicidal thoughts are no strangers to me. I agree with you that life is beautiful nevertheless. However it is made miserable because of people. You are absolutely wrong, the world would be a better place without humans.

[@chadpopulisjr243]

@@xShikariNo it wouldn't. Humans are not far off from other species on this planet. You think dinosaurs were living in a utopia?

[@muscari5482]

It's dangerous to hear such words when you're already struggling with existential dread and suicidality. It's not immoral to exist, because i didn't choose to and life is inherently valuable to me hence I have a right to life

[@ylvabrandt6767]

Seeing this video made me realize that even though you are on the right end of an argument, if someone has already made up their mind they'll get defensive no matter how you deliver your arguments.. Sometimes you end up questioning your own sanity honestly.. Thank you for making this video and for always putting yourself out their for the animals! An inspiration, truly. 🌱💚

[@mikayla2116]

I love that Ed doesn’t use shock value and rather makes people consider their own moral code.

[@Geogaddii]

Ed, your expression at the end while thanking and saying goodbye to this guy… you were so fed up! How you comport yourself is inspirational, but I hope you took a break after this discussion!

[@wheninroamful]

Comport, nice; new word for me. Thanks

[@existentialbaby]

@@wheninroamful compose*?

[@ConstantinKlose-sj4mb]

@@wheninroamful could just be a word from a romance language where it means "to behave" such as the Romanian "se comporta" and implemented into English.

[@taopaipai17]

@@ConstantinKlose-sj4mb yeah same in French "se comporter" which means to behave.

[@PACKTdotSPACE]

What makes it crazy for me is this guy is saying kill yourself to be moral, but that would lead to intense suffering by friends/family. And if everyone were killed, it would be prematurely taking life... All of it...... That's worse than anything. Existence is painful but also blissful.. at times!

[@kearress7350]

"The most moral thing is killing everything". Well, that is by FAR the most feeble minded argument against veganism ever...

[@Tea_princess]

The mass killing of everything will create a lot of suffering though, so I'm not sure if it would be the best option.

[@harveyplantharvester1502]

@@Tea_princess It would look like a global Jonestown.

[@thewiseowl8804]

It makes sense to me. Eradicating suffering would be the highest moral stance.

[@SmartDumbNerdyCool]

Veganism is just another example of cancel culture and loss of freedoms you sheep

[@Luftgitarrenprofi]

@@thewiseowl8804 Morality as a concept requires sentient beings capable of suffering and happiness/pleasure to exist. You don't "solve" morality by eridacating the potential for both. It's a defeatist position that disqualifies itself.

[@idowebwork]

Any excuse to not change. That's the core of what it comes down to in all these debates. Nothing is perfect, but the more moral option which reduces suffering is definitely the option we all should be pursuing. Then we can work to make that system more moral.

[@x-latetv-x6816]

You don't have to wait for society to catch up, you can move to that more moral position now

[@idowebwork]

@@x-latetv-x6816 already vegan, 3 years

[@ladylili8089]

Totally agree. Well written also!!

[@x-latetv-x6816]

@@idowebwork I meant you could be more moral within veganism

[@bradleyperry1735]

Why is “reducing suffering” the “more moral option?” How do we define “reducing suffering?” Whose “suffering?”

[@c2farr]

This young fellow walked into the discussion with such confidence. He found a bit of that hidden internal humility, courtesy of Ed. Nice work again, Ed.

[@georgeboole3836]

This is what happens when you talk to freshmen after their first semester of Philosophy 101

[@hannahk.summerville5908]

I love watching Ed's face. His discussions stay pretty calm but you can always see the "dude what did you just say???" in his face^^

[@Sodylin]

I find these conversations the most difficult and more frustrating ones. They fully admit what they're doing is wrong, they're aware of the alternatives, but they cannot be bothered to put any effort into changing.

[@readysoldier6799]

Eating meat is wrong only in the vegan religion. Your little bubble is not the actual world.

[@Luftgitarrenprofi]

Some people get it and just don't care enough. So long as they're not directly suffering as a result, they'll just exploit whatever they feel like exploiting. The amount of people I've talked to who told me directly to my face that they don't care about the moral arguments is pretty depressing.

[@annesuess2272]

I'm not sure it's just about can't be bothered, despite saying himself he was lazy. It's a big change in lifestyle and attitude and reluctance is understandable. You can see him getting very agitated when he realises he doesn't have an argument for his comfortable status quo in what he knows and likes. I'm not sure he will ever be as comfortable with his choices again, so the seeds have been sown for possible change.

[@Luftgitarrenprofi]

@@annesuess2272 I don't disagree that change is often not seen immediately and in a number of cases I'm sure it takes time but change does occur eventually. It's still frustrating to have people just disregard the moral argument as if arguing for moral and ethical choices were somehow inferior to health or environmental reasons. Though I digress from the videos content I suppose, since he at least somewhat admitted he's wrong.

[@igorkruszona4538]

I'm vegan myself, but its refreshing to see non vegans on those debates that admit that its immoral, they just havea different perspective on it. I prefer watching it than the typical "eating meat is what we are supposed to do and its perfectly moral". Respect to the guy, but as always Ed, you crushed it.

[@ElliottPiano]

Thank you for sharing so much light over this sensitive subject that will affect us ALL! I became vegan two years ago and my sister followed me also. We are so happy and proud. Thank you

[@jaimeerindy4573]

Ed I'm so continually impressed with you. My favorite thing is when you get to the end of the discussion and simply ask "What will you do now?" I genuinely hope some people actually make the switch. I'm so happy I did ❤️

[@emilyharris1989]

I have boundless respect for your patience to continue to hold these debates, raising awareness of why veganism is so important. I respect Joey for having the courage to sit down with you. Hopefully you helped him make at least some small changes ☺️

[@FranciscoAlvarezTV]

Q: What’s the most idiotic argument against veganism? A: Exhibit A

[@karllake1506]

I respect your ability to remain measured, he brought nothing to this debate.

[@randomguy5565]

Guy: *illogical argument* Ed: *perfectly points out why its illogical* Guy: I guess... BUT *next illogical argument*

[@linoweber3948]

It was more like "I guess BUT... same illogical argument again" lol

[@donodony3868]

I think an aspect of his point which he didn't mention is that there is tangible and direct suffering we cause like purchasing meat, and then there is intagible and indirect suffering we cause like living in a first world while most others live in poverty, the contribution to suffering from our individual carbon footprint. of course vegansim also negates these other types of suffering but if doesn't completely offset them or justify that plane ticket you bought to the maldives. Our carbon emissions and used resourses is definitely contributing to suffering. there will always be another step towards a more moral world, veganism is one of those steps.

[@justicericketts2912]

Weeell, yeah, consider it. Great debate Ed as always! Loving all the uploads lately and am so glad you are back to campus debates

[@flytoheights1]

There are people that make the world a better place. So. Just existing is not causing suffering. Also, his argument is based on limited resource and taking it away from others. But limited resource is NOT true. Some resources are not limited. There is enough food to feed everyone, but not enough meat to feed everyone.

[@NoOne-hg1qc]

well no.. if you exist, you take resources and you kill. you pollute, you steal land from other animals. so just existing does cause suffering, even if you could argue it balances out. even eating plant-based, you're killing countless little animals to harvest it most likely. that being said it still is a reduction that is significant

[@lordfarquaad3996]

Plants are a limited resource.

[@movi91]

@@lordfarquaad3996 but there are limited mouths to feed

[@AyeGonZ]

@@lordfarquaad3996 maybe. But we have enough land right now to feed everyone plant based. If we were to go plant based today and still feed the amount of people we do, we could reduce the amount of land use by 70+%. Plants can regrow.

[@lordfarquaad3996]

@@movi91 there are limited mouths because there are limited resources. Population will always outgrow the amount of food there is.

[@NoInjusticeLastsForever]

Step 1: Learn the horrors of animal agriculture Step 2: Become vegan. Don't let this be your last step. Step 3: Support animal rights activists (such as myself). Non-monetary ways are to watch their videos, give thumbs up, subscribe, leave comments, engage. Step 4: Become an animal rights activist yourself. Speak up when you can. Specialize your activism in whatever you excel at. We need all different kinds of approaches to reach a wider audience. Step 5: We'll have a vegan world. ❤️

[@kenvisvielgern4436]

I really want to know how vegans can convince people to start seeing animals as creatures with intrinsic value without using religious arguments.

[@alicemclaren9919]

@@kenvisvielgern4436 Watch the vegans debate you'll see the use of logic and science

[@Sergio-nb4hj]

I don't think we'll reach a vegan world before societal collapse, but I still think we ought to be vegan and live the most ethical lifestyles we can

[@alicemclaren9919]

@@Sergio-nb4hj Not entirely vegan but plant-based due environmental needs.I hope the world will be fully vegan but sounds far from out lifetime

[@pinkcloud3126]

And if people only have the capacity to reach to level 2, that's totally cool as well.

[@myfoodisgrownnotborncompas362]

The way Ed looking on Joey at the end is heartbreaking

[@ladylili8089]

The boy in the greys body language, his smirk, and his theory of suicide is alarming. Horrify and confusion was plastered all over my face during this video listening to the boy in grey omg. I will say I felt immediate relief when the boy in grey admitted liking the taste of meat and he is comfortable buying products that maximize suffering! He was beating around the bush so much and finally truth set it!😌

[@floor5188]

Props to Joey for daring to step into the conversation! Of course Ed is highly articulate. But with no one stepping up to speak up for the counter argument, we cannot listen to Ed's. I think a lot of people have similar considerations on this topic and these videos are super valuable

[@LibRoseITM]

It's really tough to admit to yourself that you're wrong. This was hard for him, you can see it. But he got there, he admitted he was wrong and that is the most important step in this whole thing. Now, he'll think of this conversation every time he buys food 😊

[@KellySmunt303]

I'm sure he won't. He knew he was wrong but didn't care.

[@Darmok_onthe_ocean]

I must have missed that part. All I saw was some kid try to be right until Ed dismissed him, because he was too glib to debate with.

[@LibRoseITM]

We should respect all life and that includes humans. I respect that it's hard to sit in front of a camera and talk to someone who is obviously an expert in this field. I respect that it's hard to get what you thought were well thought out arguments completely shot down by said expert (no matter how nice Ed was about it). And I respect that it's hard to admit something that contradicts your beginning argument within 20 minutes, all live on camera. He knows thousands of people are going to watch him. So it's going to put way more pressure on him than usual to win. Still, under those circumstances, he managed to suck up some humility. That's hard, and not a lot of people on these debates have come even close to doing what he did here.

[@SourceChan]

He's not wrong though, he's right, Ed was just being dismissive and shorthanded today. Did you know plant sentience is not a determined issue, for example, that it's an ongoing topic of debate and research? That plants have actually been determined to react to pain and display highly intelligent behaviors, and that it's very likely that plants could have sentience? Lets hypothetically assume they do for a moment, are you going to stop eating plants and kys, or are you going to join Joey now and defend your right to kill others to survive while having mocked him just hours earlier?

[@Darmok_onthe_ocean]

@@SourceChan see, this comment is just ridiculous. Let’s pretend that plants could suffer and cry the same way animals did. It would still cut down on farming if we got rid of animals. Because what do animals eat? Plants. The kid was wrong. We all suffer. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to needlessly succumb to hedonism. It’s arguments like these that really are a waste of time because they are plain dumb. The logic is just there if you think about what you’re saying for two seconds.

[@neiljowen]

These discussions make me laugh so hard, as Ed is so so good at thinking many steps ahead to absolutely own the conversation! You can see it coming! It's great. Keep up the good work Ed!

[@cleverestx]

"I get where you are coming from, but Bacon Tho!" is really the heart of his arguments when you remove the smoke screening. (I believe)

[@Toorin69]

Seriously who doesn’t like bacon..

[@cleverestx]

​@@Toorin69 Seriously not the deeper point. Obviously, many love the taste, but compare a taste sensation ethically, with knowing you contributed to the panicked screaming and tortured thrashing of an animal smarter than a dog slowly suffocating in a gas chamber as its eyes and mucous membranes burn from CO2 gasses just so you can acquire it? Not for me anymore. You can spice something else to be close enough; something that isn't a tortured body, and happily substitute for that taste. Plenty of other greater foods exists without THAT cost.

[@HiddenStr3ngth]

@@Toorin69 It has always been disgusting.

[@georginamallett6850]

He's so uncomfortable throughout, making bazaar arguments rather than admitting he's immoral because he's lazy.

[@bakirev]

I think it is a good point to see that we all still cause unnecessary harm. Literlally no one is reducing there life to bare necessities to completely minimize harm. Which is why I think (not Ed) it's not the right way to go about it by looking down on people and feeling superior. It's hypocritical and I see it a lot in the comments "carnists just don't care etc."

[@30daymissionman]

First time I’ve seen Ed look like he’s had his fill of stupidity! 😞

[@SourceChan]

That's ironic because Ed didn't make any good arguments in this debate, Joey did, the whole nonsense at the start doesn't even make any sense, if all actions in nature including r ape and murder "for fun" (not for eating, just for fun, which some animals engage in) is "morally neutral" then so are murder by the mentally ill and psychoaths, they're considered to have as little moral agency as nature, so it must then follow that murder by these people is morally neutral. What a load of nonsense.

[@naitsirhc2065]

@@SourceChan this comment is just embarrassing. cringe

[@SourceChan]

@@naitsirhc2065 this comment is just embarrassing. cringe

[@pegbuckner5074]

Ed, I truly wish all high schools showed your videos in every classroom in the world 🌎💚

[@emilyharris1989]

Yes!! I would have been vegan so much earlier in my life if this was the case. Instead I muddled my way to vegetarianism as a young teenager and found veganism in my late 20s!

[@alisiademi]

"We create so much harm by existing that we shouldn't even exist!" -Person making absolutely zero efforts in their lifestyle to cause less harm

[@GeddyRC]

Right, if you acknowledge all the harm that everyone is causing simply by existing, how does being aware of that fact absolve you from your responsibility to cause as little of it as possible?

[@alisiademi]

@@GeddyRC exactly!

[@Nawtystep]

You levelled up with this conversation Ed. He asked for it, but you absolutely lived up to it. That question of ‘Are you comfortable doing this?’ is as compelling and to the point as it gets. Great stuff, more of that

[@knowledgeispower5720]

Props to Joey for having a decent debate and actually listening a bit

[@VaishnavaVegan]

I feel as if some of the other comments are being a bit myopic. Joey had to work through the arguments, but eventually came to all the right conclusions, at least on paper. He doesn't presently have the willpower to live a vegan life, but he acknowledges that it would be better. While this is definitely not enough and he should live a vegan life, it's not something that can be changed in any way other than in his own decision to be consistent with his beliefs.

[@x-latetv-x6816]

Why join an experiment when born vegans haven't been proven to live to hundred en masse or with severe complications

[@Ermude10]

Agree, and it's the first step we've all taken first before actually changing our actions. Some change their actions quicker after the realization, some will need more time.

[@Alexandros11]

Exactly. Almost nobody says 'that's it I'm going vegan' - they lose an argument or come across a video and over the coming days/weeks it seeps in as they think about it and eventually they realise that they have to do it. That's what happened to me and every single one of my vegan friends.

[@benjaminsch1113]

You are totally right. But the fact is that if he pursue his lifestyle without ever changing he is but a garbage human being that should, quite frankly, apply his own methods to himself

[@SourceChan]

What do you mean? How dares he question our beliefs with "bizarre questions" that confuses us. The man is evil!!! He must kneel in front of Vegan Jesus and beg for his forgiveness or succumb to the fullest extent of the wrath of the NPC hive mind!!!!

[@PogieJoe]

I just love how Ed conducts these conversations. He doesn't escalate nor insult. He tries his best to show how many people haven't seriously considered their own justifications.

[@Corvid_Moon]

100%! Ed is truly inspirational with his outreach. I strive to be as calm & informative with my advocacy also

[@x-latetv-x6816]

My justification is born vegans haven't been studied en masse to live to hundred or without severe complications in-between

[@Linz0440]

@@x-latetv-x6816 you seem to have forgotten the Buddhists and Jainists, and pure vegetarian hindus,

[@x-latetv-x6816]

@@Linz0440 and we're they studied or just take there word for it kinda situation

[@x-latetv-x6816]

@@Linz0440 also have they studied at least 3 generations of let's say Jains were there grandchild also lived to 100 without severe complications in-between

[@mp48930]

"BUT EXISTING IS IMMORAL" = literally the only argument that this kid circles back to.

[@corsicanlulu]

he sounds like an antinatalist

[@jankrkic8755]

@@corsicanlulu Not really, it's more nuanced. An antinatalist would say creating sentient life would be immoral but wouldn't consider that existing is immoral. The guy said that killing your self if an obligation but an antinatalist would say not procreating is an obligation.

[@corsicanlulu]

@@jankrkic8755 youre right

[@hansfrankfurter2903]

It honestly is a valid argument. If reducing harm is the argument, then you'd descend into this kind of nihilism. No life no harm.

[@jonathannavarreteperez801]

As painful and ludicrous as that conversation was, I will at least commend Joey for not having cognitive dissonance, which is so rampant in meat eaters who try to justify their behavior. He was capable of acknowledging that veganism is the more ethical choice, but was honest about how his selfishness/laziness was keeping him from being ethical.

[@Jivje0is0pr0]

Ed was more strict than usual but this boy needed it

[@freshairkaboom8171]

Definitely, it's not acceptable to participate in a holocaust of unprecedented proportions in the history of the entire world just because you're lazy. Simply unacceptable behaviour nobody should tolerate from anyone.

[@SourceChan]

Please elaborate. Also if we're not "holocausting" animals we're still "holocausting" insects with croplands, regardless of intentions there is unnecessary suffering, so Joey's argument is absolutely correct, if you take suffering maximally serious then killing yourself becomes a moral obligation, this is why DISCUSSION is important and not just PREACHING, because PREACHING doesn't teach ANYONE ANYTHING, it doesn't make you smarter or wiser, it makes people dumber and more like NPCs who just deep throat whoever sounds smarter.

[@freshairkaboom8171]

@@SourceChan Are you interested in discussion or just want to defend your holocaust?

[@Vanillababe7]

@@SourceChan how do we holocaust insects? Do we breed them into existence just to enslave them just so that we can kill them? Killing some insects is not the same as killing billions and billions of animals for taste. Yes once you are born you create some sort of pain for something that lives. You step on the gras you maybe kill a bug. So does that cow that steps on a bug in the grass. That is not the same as breeding billions and billions of bugs just so that we can kill them. And if I see an insect I avoid stepping on it. It's about reducing needless suffering. I can not exist without accidentally killing insects but I can perfectly exist without killing animals and without paying for their breeding and enslavement and exploitation.

[@SourceChan]

@@Vanillababe7 Nobody bred the jews into existence to use them as cattle my guy, they made babies by their own volition, and then we mass killed them against their will which is what a holocaust is. I didn't say it's the same, but do you agree then that mass killing (non-human) animals like cattle isn't the same as mass killing humans? Or is logical consistency just for racists and homophobes? I agree with reducing needless suffering, that's why I'm vegan, I just think there's such a thing as going too far, like "persecuting"/mocking/bullying non-vegans (I know non-vegans does that to us, but that's the nature of this world, people who make positive change meets resistance, and it makes us stronger if we allow it instead of crying to mommy or daddy, the police, a teacher, our little twitter mob, or whatever, everytime someone does something mean towards us (btw I don't have a problem with crying by ourselves, or letting a friend or family member know, but I'm talking about vengeful sobbing immature tantrum type of crying here) - and we haven't learned anything or gotten any stronger, but weaker, if we become like them and bully others just for not agreeing with or being part of our clique) just for being non-vegan. Unless we grew up being vegan we all were non-vegan at some point, and if you grew up vegan then you kind of cheated, because you never necessarily had to think about things yourself - which isn't something to be proud of or to look down on others for. How easy it is to live vegan depends on where you live. People cite things like "but beans are vegan, and everyone got beans!", yes but beside the point, beans to most people are boring, myself included (I like some beans sometimes, but not a lot of it all the time), we should be aware and respectful of that, instead of shouting at everyone that refuse to become a clone of us on the spot - which isn't a rational or reasonable request anyways, let people make up their own minds. You're allowed to be disappointed, that's part of being human, but how you express that disappointment is important, oftentime it's best not to express it at all unless you really know that person well or you have a very strong reason to do so, etc. Every fight is an internal fight, between your emotions, clarity, love, compassion and mindful restraint, not an external fight where beating the other person with a stick or with unnecessarily mean words is going to change anything for the better, because it's not, instead if divides people into opposite fighting groups and increase animosities and pull the groups further apart until they start actually fighting physically, like you see with say antifa and far right groups, who absolutely despise each other and play propaganda games about the other.

[@olivierd4828]

H-O-L-Y S-H-I-T, that was definitely a brain melting argument after argument

[@maiteetxandisantolaya1158]

People try so hard to find arguments against veganism just to keep enjoying the taste of meat... It's unbelievable

[@happilyeverafterhanna]

These people debating Ed are always acting like plant based meats don’t exist! they don’t have to give up the taste just change where that taste comes from

[@lydiajohnston2452]

i actually really like the way he thinks!! it reminds me of my own thought process. he’s definitely on the right track, he’s just stuck on one question.

[@SandroRomeo6]

He’s young and we can clearly hear that he doesn’t speak with his heart, time will make him more genuine

[@jessevegan]

This guy’s body language and arguments are 😳😳🤯🤯. He clearly cannot keep up with Ed’s intellect and rational points. That was brutal to watch. Ed is amazing!!

[@ladylili8089]

The body language was catching me off guard so much too, I had to comment right away

[@tremix2963]

Do you think that everyone in the world will eventually be vegan? That wasn’t me arguing it was just a question.

[@jessevegan]

@@tremix2963 I’m not sure that everyone will but I do think that because of our environmental crisis and the fact that there are loads of plant based options, even lab grown meat coming into the picture, that a high majority of the population will veer away from traditional eating/using of animals. I believe I read that in the next 8 years (2030) something like 60% of people will be eating plants and foods that are lab grown. That would be an amazing reality. What is taking place now just isn’t sustainable in so many ways. Thank you for asking!

[@leviahimsa]

He said he doesn't like "vegan" food? 82% of global calories come from plants... Does he never enjoy plants? 🥭🥥🍅🍇🍈🍊🍊🍒🍑🍐🍏🍎🍍🍌🍋🥝🥒🥑🍓🍒

[@yolo-ni5bl]

as a vegan with deppression, I take this as an absolute win.

[@ThanosDidTheRightThing]

Are you depressed because you’re vegan ? I would be

[@yolo-ni5bl]

@@ThanosDidTheRightThing lol nah, I was depressed before I went vegan. Just diddn't want to take others down with me. (Animals, climate change, factory farm workers etc.) Depression runs in my family. Also trauma.

[@ThanosDidTheRightThing]

@@yolo-ni5bl Sorry to hear and glad that you found something that helped with your depression!

[@komasaeufer]

@@yolo-ni5bl Bro just go outside, there ain't no depression under the sun.

[@yolo-ni5bl]

@@komasaeufer dude im a long distance runner lol im outside all day

[@poochylover4]

I cannot believe how calmly you responded to all of that. I was laughing but I also wanted to cry and rip my hair out at how that conversation was just going in circles. You made so many great points though and you did a good job of keeping things on track. I wish I was half as eloquent as you. Maybe I would actually feel confident discussing vegan issues if I were rather than fearing it because I feel like I'm just going to do a disservice to veganism and animals if I try

[@unicornfluffxo]

I really respect the patience and knowledge you equip yourself with for all of these conversations. Brilliant activism Ed

[@Evan102030]

This crazy argument got pounded into the ground within 3 seconds.

[@Evan102030]

It basically shows what kind of bizarre mental gymnastics people will perform to justify immoral behavior.

[@Deathhead68]

Oh I love the armchair philosophers.

[@borneoorangutan]

Hah, Ed look's so fed up right at the end there, being presented with this guy who's saying they're too lazy to stop killing animals. Can't blame Ed for that look at the end.

[@theoblanc2444]

Yeah I also noticed that. Always hearing the same arguments during months of debate must give you the impression that nothing changes, or worse, that no one care. Even if Ed is the best at what he does, this must affect him somehow.

[@DiamondintheRough83]

You are vegan debating wizard!All questions brought him back to the topic - he was so uncomfortable processing that his argument was not holding up to yours. And you do it in such a calm way that it doesn’t make someone get defensive. The progress always seems to be it’s the moral option but I’m too lazy to do it and what if it’s not good for my body to do so and it reduces my food choice options. Which is odd because even going plant-based from vegetarian I feel like I’ve found food freedom and more options - I see food differently now.

[@mysticalmisfit33]

Kid going to college- "Im a real lazy guy..." All you gotta say is 95% of women are attracted to vegans and bam, you got the whole male college demograph.

[@MrSterlinglinford]

1 minute in and I can tell that his argument is not “being vegan is immoral” but “being alive is immoral”

[@SourceChan]

What's the meaningful distinction there?

[@MrSterlinglinford]

@@SourceChan all living humans are alive but not all living humans are vegan. He’s arguing against being alive instead of being vegan.

[@SourceChan]

@@MrSterlinglinford Yes, there's a distinction between human and vegan, obviously, but you haven't shown how there's a meaningful distinction between the two arguments. If veganism is immoral, that doesn't necessarily make living immoral, because living/surviving is not an extension of veganism. However veganism is an extension of living, you cannot be vegan and be dead, if you're dead you're no longer vegan because you're not alive, so if living is immoral then so is veganism, veganism might be less immoral, but it's still immoral.

[@MrSterlinglinford]

@@SourceChan his argument is not that veganism is more immoral. His argument has nothing to do with veganism, that’s my point. I take his point to be, living is immoral so let’s talk about that instead of veganism. It would be like using anti-natalism as some kind of counter to veganism, they don’t have anything to do with each other. It’s like saying paved roads are bad so don’t ride a bike when the discussion is comparing bikes to cars. Irrelevant.

[@SourceChan]

@@MrSterlinglinford It's not a counter to veganism in particular, it's a counter to living in particular, which also extends to veganism.

[@Lowequay]

This is the first time I’ve heard your tone change at hint at annoyance. I fronted a similar position to this lad in a conversation with a colleague around four years ago. Being emotionally attached to customs of a lifetime are hard to think about honestly and critically. This has at the very least given him something to think about.

[@geyster97531]

This guy better be an antinatilist, given all his arguments about existence being harmful...

[@ac.runnnn]

What’s wrong with antinatalism?? They are edgy and annoying yes, but coming from vegans I don’t think y’all are ones to talk lol. I’m both an antinatalist and vegan and I reached those 2 standpoints because they’re both the options that reduce suffering. Surprising that vegans aren’t as open minded to antinatalism as I thought.

[@hollyg3317]

@@ac.runnnn probably because vegans generally assign a positive value to life, as most believe it is wrong to kill an animal outside of perhaps euthanasia and abortion. there is a lot of overlap between vegans and anti-natalists, though. i'm pretty sure @Banana Life the person you asked is anti-natalist based on their comment. i think it's also a psychological thing. when i was suicidal i was anti-natalist, but i basically lost those views when i realized that life was worth living. i've heard similar stories from other people. it also will come down to people's spiritual/religious beliefs and a lot of people go vegan in the first place because of those beliefs.

[@geyster97531]

@@ac.runnnn You misunderstood me. I'm also a vegan antinatalist, for the same reasons as you.

[@lastdreamofhome]

@@hollyg3317 also a vegan - it's worth remembering antinatalism is based in moral philosophy. Our individual experiences can certainly lead us to it - I discovered it back when I was suicidal. But a life worth continuing and a life worth starting are two different things.

[@cheryllee81]

I wish I had your patience, Ed! A great discussion as usual.

[@stefancosmescu3397]

Coming into a debate with only one argument and circling back to it constantly is such a shame.

[@blueberrydenim4807]

He tried, but logic always wins. It always comes down to taste, tradition, & lack of concern/empathy

[@kirsten_e]

Thank you for all that you do 💚

[@songsparrow4324]

I don't know if you impacted him now, but hopefully at some point. You did a great job of speaking on behalf of animals and the cruelty inflicted on them. Thank you!!

[@benedictemortreux8421]

What is that young student talking about? "Choosing to not eliminate yourself?"... "killing yourself a moral obligation" ?🤪 Does he even understand what veganism is? What a challenge to even listen to him...

[@bp56789]

Ed, have some cheap, tasty, easy-to-make vegan recipes on paper next to you. When they say it’s a taste issue, hand it to them a recipe and ask them to give it a try. Have a link on the bottom of the page to more vegan recipes. I can make some good vegan meals.

[@FranciscoAlvarezTV]

Biologically engineered cows?! That’s enough Internet for me today. 😂

[@vasisimari92058]

🤣🤣🤣

[@olivethevegan]

Ed, you have such patience!

[@rainedyani8505]

The truest moment was at 9:37 where the kid admits that he “really doesn’t know much”. Indeed. Yet he keeps trying and trying to avoid taking responsibility.

[@vexium8127]

Do not let this society dictate wether suffering is a necessity veganism is proof you can minimize that suffering.