Sunwell Plateau Loot Priority

[@Zatar]

Will edit this post with any updates on loot: - I want to advise against crafting Hard Khorium Battlefists as a dps warrior after running more sims. Even though in some situations they can be good, you are generally better of saving your gold and only crafting the leather armor pen gloves and gemming hit if you need it. Even with hit gems, you will see comparable damage. You would prefer the armor pen gloves both very early and in full bis.

[@HW-ow9zp]

Dang, I try to have an in depth understanding of a lot of different classes so that I can help my guild with loot distribution but your nuance knowledge and coverage for all of these classes is really impressive. Certainly there can be some points or counter points to be made about any given list but I am really taken aback by how solid this entire analysis is. Thanks a lot for making it. Will definitely check out some of your other stuff. Take care

[@alexr852]

Back at it again! Thank you Zatar! I have spent the past 8 hours going over the guide as well as our guild's loot history and current loot needs to make what I think are very informed decisions for Sunwell loot. Thanks for helping out and (hopefully) keeping my raiders happy

[@sanudasa5652]

Been waiting for this for a week and sunwell has only been announced for days LOL. A note on ele sham legs: tumultuous storm, legs were already ele off set, so they may not be affected at all by not yet having tier when those drops, and early on that can save you a mote to go to ele first. (But GL even having an ele, I have to respec for prog...)

[@olov244]

I needed this so bad, thank you. sorry you had to rush it out before the release, but ty

[@omarlozano9374]

The reason BNS sims well for Rets, specifically those that go haste over arpen, is that it can stack decently fast if you prioritize and get good RNG with twists and/or WF. Each swing should grant you two stacks because of SoB. This also means that a twist or WF proc gets 4 stacks in one swing, and both of those simultaneously will get you six stacks in one swing.

[@neal7805]

Ele uses offset legs in BT/Hyjal, so Tumultuous Storm doesn't break anything at all.

[@richardplummer8750]

So for locks, dark conjurers + t6 shoulders is only single figures dps increase over t6 hat and the off shoulders. So they should just get whatever combo comes first and be happy.

[@MaidensRag]

As a ret paladin, thank you for finally saying the point that expertise is a bigger increase for rets than other classes. Thinking back to ssc/tk with belt and it was everybody BUT ret paladin prio. hopefully things different this time around. Never even got my belt of 100d :/

[@darkstar2205]

Have fun wearing leather and looking like a complete clown

[@Kododie]

I'm missing a crafted section in this video. You did briefly mentioned some items but something like blacksmithing BoP chest is completely missing and it's a very good option. Especially for those warriors who still have to have blacksmithing because of Dragonstrike.

[@ofactor07]

Only thing I would say is that it seems most moonkins will be running t5/t6 for a long while so their tier gets them to that ability way faster.

[@douglaskoenig1751]

Most boomkins will run 4 pc tier 5, 4 pc tier 6. Prio for tier should be maybe bear then boomkin then boomkins can basically slot in last on all caster off pieces

[@johnwatson1408]

Ret here, I see a lot of rets already commenting but I'll add my two cents. First off, thanks for ret prio on tier! Clipping and sending to my raid lead, lol, but as a human with torch, I just wanted to point out that felspine is a dps loss if you already have torch as a human. Might be worth mentioning that humans with torch will not want felspine afaik. But agree that arms should get apolyon first, followed by a ret with arPen set. Haste rets gain even less from apolyon then those that get the arPen set.

[@Davenbeast]

if you have have expertiese cap (shard u want even as human) felspine is an upgrade or close to at least (not sure had to sim it) otherwise right in full haste bis apolyon is almost on par with torch but still bis

[@BigHeadClan]

Spriest deff don't have any issue with spell hit they only need 3 pieces to get hit cap with talents, pretty much none if they have an ele shaman group. But overall pretty spot on list appreciate the work you put into these its makes figuring out LC stuff way easier.

[@tankzu7898]

this is from a ret pov. list looks really good and fair. one thing is that ret has to set that are basically the same dps. haste set that wants key items like Duplicitous Guise ( give all the hit ret needs) ,Felfury Legplates and Pauldrons of Berserking. and a armor pen set that wants Leggings of the Immortal Night (the hit item), Coif of Alleria and Demontooth Shoulderpads / Mantle of the Golden Forest. imported mixing this items with except maybe the shoulders will be a big dps loss for you. Example you dont want Leggings of the Immortal Night if you have Duplicitous Guise because of wasted hit and at that point Felfury Legplates are just better. Because of the high coopetition for items like Leggings of the Immortal Night, Coif of Alleria, Demontooth Shoulderpads its HIGHLY recommed to go for the haste set. this the set have about the same dps (some different depending on boss armor but not by more the +-20 dps) as the armor pen set. there is more info in the paladin discord and good list and videos made talking about both sets. if you read this Zatar i would lower Rets on the items mentions for the armor pen set and putting them higher on haste set pises. if a RET is going for the armor pen set they probably lazy and doesn't want to put in effort with the faster swing speed that haste set gives.

[@Zatar]

I was aware of both of those lists, and you should see that reflected in the prio. I have them above warriors on the haste shoulders and have them getting haste chest + the leather helm.

[@Davenbeast]

@@Zatar Also you are kinda wrong about BNS since Ret does attack "faster" and get multible stacks due twist but personally I wouldt prio it super high

[@Zatar]

I just went through logs and counted how many hits the paladin connected in a fight compared to other classes. They were pretty low

[@Davenbeast]

@@Zatar yea they prob are lol, you do have to change your rotation to make this worthwhile. I cant give you the best insight, in Light Club there is the information they worked out !bns should give you the info or you could ask pride or surv if you wanna know more about it

[@Zatar]

But for example, when rogues are connecting three times as many attacks, and stacking BNS Proc 3x faster, It’s going to be tricky for Paladin to gain as much (even if their rotational changes add more hits).

[@Rev0UK1]

ofc a hunter would use Coif, regardless of hit situation...they'll jsut gem the hit and its still a dps gain

[@fleshcrunch7988]

Ret Tier prio thank you

[@matthewjohngecks7129]

I know that a lot of the Ele shamans are going to respec to Resto for prog but it still feels kinda bad to have almost no contested gear go our way. During prog it would be best to completely pass over those that did this so no gear goes to waste and I mean even our mail caster gear is contested with resto if not prio to them. I like to think that most who respec will not be taking away loot from the main raid healers which will mean literally no loot for the entirety of prog. Make sure you give a little love over to those that respec in your guild for this purpose and shift some of the gear their way once they are done with their healing to make up for this.

[@huthutify]

The resto gear they get can can be changed back to ele later.

[@michaelklupfel8360]

could you specify how a prio list should look like for a boomkin using 4pt5 4pt6? Especially if u then can't make use of the hit items and if u step back on all the loot in the set slots, you should be able to have higher prio on other items like caster trinket, cloak and sunflare (also regarding you might need those for pvp)

[@darrak1]

The prot pally wrists are super big and are something to write home about they should be prioed to your prot pally before brutalus 100%. Boots or belt should be given to him 1st if he doesn't have BT offpieces, if he has them then he can wait a little bit.

[@Zatar]

Keep in mind that many prot pallies won’t be taking brutallus

[@wgardi1762]

@@Zatar aren't 2-3 tanks needed for Brutallus? You're saying that a prot pali won't make up one of those tanks? Definitely did prot palis dirty on the wrist prio, they are massive.

[@Trivi10]

@@wgardi1762 he did prot dirty throughout. Prot paladins are 100x better in sunwell than he is making them out to be.

[@Zatar]

They are not bad by any means. In the past prot paladins were rightfully viewed as the most important person in the raid, and the highest priority to gear. Now there are damage checks and healing checks, and even though they’re still important, they are less important than they have been in the past, especially if they are not tanking on brutallus. I didn’t think they should be higher on tier because I compared the new tier with the 2nd bis items. Surprisingly little difference for boot and belt.

[@Zatar]

You only need 2 tanks for brutallus. It depends on the guild, but many guilds will have prot pally help heal.

[@aaronh.917]

thanks for making this. great commentary

[@lasergames1798]

Dang Zat putting in work

[@joels5150]

I would disagree with your assertion the warlock T6 belt is about the same stat wise as Belt of Blasting. For a start BoB has NO baseline stats on it, only secondary. So that’s 29 Stam and 20 Int increase. It also has a gem slot, and the haste stat, which BoB also doesn’t have. Comparing T6 to Anetheron’s Noose would have been better.

[@Centail]

I wouldn't be surprised if priests are prio'd helm and shoulders since mages stick with T5, in which case it's fair that mages get prio on the chest and gloves in return.

[@waffles3782]

you have class prio on a badge of justice ring... prot pal doesn't want to keep T6 shoulders - they want to run tier boots, bracers, belt and either tier chest+borderlands or swp chest + t6 gloves

[@waffles3782]

Maybe also worth stating that the consideration on some of these items are based on having bis from P3

[@Zatar]

My bad on the ring, not sure how that snuck in. Many pally sets use tier shoulder, 2/3 sets linked on wowhead bis use them. Not really a big deal if they want the new shoulder though.

[@Johbe1110]

I do think that prot pally does quite well on belt and bracers on their tier 6.5. Only the boots are kinda meh, basically the same stats as the ones they have already. In a LC guild I'd still give belt and bracer to the prot pally, just because tanks have the most important role.

[@michaelkelly6294]

Tier 6.5 is obviously BiS for everyone. Prot Pally can do the same job with the current items out now. Unless your pally is tanking Brutallis which it shouldn't. The gain from ret is replacing phase 2 and 3 items. Ret passed on all phase 4 (Tier 6.0) tier and prot pallys got the gigabeef (rightfully so) Prot pally is needed, but not as essential as bear and (in some cases) prot warrior.

[@Johbe1110]

@@michaelkelly6294 I know how good it is for ret and all, I'm actually ret main. However I still think that during progress tanks should always have prio on pieces that are good upgrades for them. If you check bracers and belt they are definitely quite a bit better than what prot pallies are currently wearing.

[@Kirbstompd]

BNS is fine on ret because of twisting. Yeah they "attack slow", but every twist is 4 swings in 1 global, and therefore 4 stacks

[@Zatar]

I based it off of how many times rets Hit a boss compared to other classes in the same kill.

[@UBSDREAMZz]

As a ret myself, I will not be taking BNS from my other dps. So much of bigger upgrade for others compared to us. And you need full bis haste set with Apoloyn in order for it to be worth running along with Shard.

[@Wonnnebju]

Great loot advise as always. Will you do the extra rogue prio vid soon?

[@elite1234564]

Also you should have added bns is = dps gain for rogue and hunter if the hunter has legend bow

[@hcs626]

Honestly imo a for example arms warrior or fury imo(bother or either being human using swords) do better with shard of contempt/red belt than 100D and still get a prio for belt unless a shaman needs it imo

[@bestwarrioreu]

Do you have any thoughts on sunmote prio?

[@CherryCola55PSN]

I would maybe do the protector tokens a bit different, I do agree the tank tier pieces with expertise should go to prot warriors first, but bear in mind even with 100 deaths the tier belt is still the biggest of the three for warrior dps and possibly also enha. Bracers the smallest (for warrior). Whereas BM could take whatever to keep their 4 set while acquiring upgrades. Although in any case you should rotate 1 each for your hunters/warriors/enhas, they are all HUGE upgrades for all the classes (80+ dps in some cases on 3 min fights), of course also depending on what else they pick up from SWP assuming you do LC.

[@Folsomdsf2]

If you have a prot warrior and they don't suck dick, they pretty much should be first in line so they can get more threat in while not dying. This is double true if oyu have a rogue cucking their devastate extra damage reducing their threat further. Unless you want them to go back to wearing t5 while you collect more dps gear so they can somehow get some sort of threat back. Oh and then they just outright die.

[@rubengonzalez3222]

Ret paladins get double upgrades from tier as it also let's them replace Phase 2 items...

[@wylatron]

Honest question: why would you prio ret pali over warlock when ret ranks 7 slots below destro locks according to tbc dps rankings? seems counterintuitive to clearing and improving clear times/difficulty

[@Zatar]

You don’t assign loot based on dps ranking. You have to look at the individual dps gain from the items. Ret Paladin tier is just much better than warlock in terms of dps upgrade for the raid.

[@wylatron]

@@Zatar that makes sense, wouldn’t know as our raid just doesn’t have a ret, thank you for taking the time to explain it😊

[@Zatar]

Np, ret loves expertise and haste

[@checkyzk7377]

Have to say i disagree alot with the healermace prio. Priests and Druids have a staff from KJ thats on the same level as the KJ-Mace. Why would you give them the Mace as well over the holy Pala? Sure, the haste has less value on a pala but going from Archons Gavel -> HammerOfSanctification is for sure a bigger step than going from GoldenStaffOfTheSindorei -> HammerOfSanctification. For me the decision is between Holy Pala and Rsham. Now for sure its a better Item for a Rsham than for a Hpal and if both have Archons Gavel/Illidanmace id give it to the shaman as well. But in most cases the shaman will come to KJ with Illidanmace while the pala is still rocking HammerOfAtonement from Hyjal. Id argue that its a bigger Upgrade to give the Pala the KJ-Mace in that case. In the long run it might still be better to give it to the rSham anyway and let the pala wait for ArchonsGavel first until all rShams have the KJ-Mace. But having a rSham unequip the Illidanmace while the pala is still wearing HammerOfAtonement is just cruel imo. Kind of nitpicky and way too specific for the video, but i just wanted to add this. Also having a priest or Druid more with the staff will help with the Offhand competition. Otherwise good video. Havent finished watching the casterloot but the meleeloot was fairly accurate for the most part from my understanding

[@Zatar]

You shouldn’t give the mace to a healer that gets the staff, and I mentioned to consider which healers have the illidan Mace to help decide who should get the hammer. A Deserving Hpal definitely can get it, especially if multiple other healers have gotten as spires.

[@Hoytful]

Both Hpriest in my guild have Karabors so we prio'd the staff to our druid and our paladin still hasn't seen the mace from Hyjal. So we have him on first prio for KJ mace unless the Gavel drops first then we will give him gavel since the haste from KJ mace is better for our Shams. It really depends on who has Karabors and which mace drops first in Sunwell.

[@gabbat12]

I sim BNS at 40-60 dps for enhance/fury over 2nd bis (which is either madness, berserkers call or shard), depending on sim settings, never below tho. How do you reach your values of 20-25dps?

[@Zatar]

For enhance, try removing dst, shard and sliver are bis. For fury, I bet you are human with glaives, which causes shard to over cap expertise due to the disarm talent. Take a point out And either put it in the hit or execute talent. If you take the hit talent, you can gem more crit in its place and gain damage.

[@Zinkx.]

Shard of contempt/DST basically at least for fury shard=dst BNS is only 25ish up from both

[@Ves189]

Isnt it true that for progress, when warriors arent at armor pen cap yet Fel Fury leggings are barely an upgrade over Divine Retribution? Thats what i saw in spreadsheets at least.

[@Zatar]

Only if they had really high hit

[@hcs626]

I know its more damage but i rather have plate as an arms warr but thats just me

[@vanidar21]

every hunter should be weaving no exceptions. Its so easy to do with the mouse programm and apparently not bannable.

[@darkstar2205]

If someone is prio’d glaives why would you ever give them mounting vengeance this is making my head hurt

[@vladpiddubnyi]

BNS trinket is good for ret because of seal twisting it’s stacks instant btw…

[@Zatar]

They still don’t stack it as fast as others. Expertise trinket is really good for them too, especially non-human

[@vladpiddubnyi]

@@Zatar tru but if you haven’t DST …. BNS the best option

[@Zatar]

Yeah, you have to consider current trinket of course

[@Veiljustin83]

BNS is good for all physical dps, but in terms of who gets the best benefits, rogues and hunters can stack the fastest and gets the most AP gain out of it. Rogues attack really fast and hunters popping Rapid fire + Haste pots +DST is literally a machine gun and will stack it even faster than a rogue.

[@Yamulo]

Unfortunately, for locks that don't really need the hit from the item, Zhardoom is better than Grand Magisters

[@ripstainmcripstain905]

Can't wait for your list to screw me over again! Thank you x

[@lugano_wow]

The amount of stam the the pallys are getting with the new pieces is insane. U need understand that what prot pally lack the most is survivability and stam has more valuable than the other tanks for the scaling with the talents and increase the range of Ardent Defender. What the majority of the raids need is stability and SWP will be a pain without tanks having more EHP. With that, getting extra threat pieces to get higher than high DPSers threat, because if u give everything to your DPS (a good and lucky ret can easily get with a prot pally threat for example) they will need to stop dpsing, then the item is wasted. And they need that SWP tier pieces to swap some pieces that have high EHP and maintain set bonus.

[@lugano_wow]

And a thing that my guild will be doing, because we have a one-of-each-tank setup, is to slowly move the tank war to dps, what makes prot pally more in need of gear

[@Davenbeast]

Ret shouldt get near you as a tank in terms of threat even if he has the tier pieces if you compare the bracers for example the gains are not that high also you just need to taunt off your feral tank on brut for example and take off his threat. threat shouldt be an issue mostly

[@lugano_wow]

On brutallus yes, but many guilds will be start tanking Kalecgos with a pally for the bubble reset, in muru trash we wear high sp set and all trash need to be killed fast.

[@Davenbeast]

@@lugano_wow kalecgos can be taunted too i believe and the p3 bracers will just do fine its like 2 sp difference

[@BIGIFANDYELLOWCARD]

Great video.

[@lovesandwich8783]

You are actually wrong about warriors not needing hit as in this tier we are losing hit from our helmet, chest, cloak, and weapons. If you don’t have glaives or SSR you will pretty much have to use previous tier items or use hit sockets

[@Zatar]

Warriors definitely can run into trouble with hit especially if they get items in an unlucky order (replace hit items without getting the new t6 tier). My main point was that they can make due without the legs, and they should be priod on other items instead.

[@lovesandwich8783]

@@Zatar yea im with you that warriors can and should use the plate legs as its an option available for us and its really good assuming you are hit capped, but for warriors to get hit cap without a boomkin as you mentioned they would lose a lot by having to go for hit specific items.

[@seanmorse8477]

Anyone put together a convenient spreadsheet consolidating the info in this video?

[@driponme3484]

Are you posting this especially for rogue soon? Would be so awesome. Did my whole Loot prio based on your opinions last times since I never played TBC.

[@sander5236]

Not wanting to unequip bulwark, when vengeful always looked better already pepelaugh

[@prap7735]

I think most guilds are just gonna prio expertise tier tokens to their respective classes first.

[@Sasupoika2]

Good stuff. Some observations from perspective of feral (tanking, catting frequently): Sunwell (well, BT too) is tier where actual helmets overtake Wolfshead in damage even with presence of other mangler. For cats, Guise is only BiS in 9% hit sets, and not very big BiS - if running Boomie BiS set would instead use T6 helmet to keep 4p T6 bonus. Although only If they can get other big pieces (Bladed Chaos, Immortal Night and Demontooth), otherwise it is pretty bad. If not, they want to wear CVoS. Fury Hunter are also competitive for dps, so if you give it to bear they can also use it very well on cat. Engineers also have goggles that don't trail too far behind the other helmets. If they don't get helmet, demontooth probably should be higher prio for them since shoulder slot is next up on maintaining 4p T6. CVoS/Guise+T6 shoulders is pretty close to T6 helmet+Demontooth. Of course, unless cat has one of aforementioned helmets, wolfshead is next best choice. Neck, yeah. For cats It is either crafted neck or Endless Nightmares. Endless Nightmares also has similar hit to Braided Eternium Neck so it is less hassle to swap inbetween. People are still gonna run BT for glaives at least and I think you can expect these to drop occasionally. Failing that, cats can wear the new exalted neck and it should be slightly better than Telonicus'. Carnal Instincts is obviously bear BiS, but still decent for cat. Obvious benefit is that it can be swapped to Bladed Chaos once content is nerfed or at farm. Immortal Night is absolutely massive cat upgrade - imo, bigger than Immortal Beast is for bear. It's pretty painful choice. Monobears would obviously prefer immortal beast and admittedly, cat could still use them, but even on sets that value hit rating as 0 have Immortal Night stand out as BiS. Sliver is 2nd BiS (with shard being obvious BiS), but again, not a huge one. MotB is still great (although occasionally hit becomes hard to use), followed by Tsunami Talisman.

[@stianbotten7962]

i honestly don`t agree on what you are saying about the ele tier boots, they are insane and much better than anything we can get, about a 60 dps increase from your second bis on boots alone

[@zurcarak]

nice i was waiting for your list since you are based

[@100based9]

Based

[@sunchung4957]

Just join gdkp . U can join any gdkp runs , u can quit the game and come back weeks later u still have same amount of gold. No drama. If ur item don't drop at least you get paid.

[@1512125]

Imagine maining Hpal and playing Ele alt, couldn't be me.....

[@LoremasterTsurugi]

Ele shaman's went into the healing tree for the hit talent? But why would they respec into a healer? Nevermind, I get it now, you mean the casters will lose the totem.. But yeah Ele doesn't have to respec unless raiders need more healers

[@Zatar]

The reason I mention it, is because resto shamans are the best healers in sunwell and most raids are going to increase the amount healers they run by at least one on most fights and up to two or three more on twins.

[@darrak1]

armor ring should be considered for paladin aswell, but they should go last

[@Zatar]

They are listed on it

[@KaelinGoff]

@@Zatar think me means on the website

[@Zatar]

Am I missing something? I see them listed for ruinous delight.

[@KaelinGoff]

@@Zatar hardened resolve

[@Zatar]

Ty for some reason was thinking armor pen

[@romnesia7729]

I feel like for enhance, dps warriors, and rets, you might want to clarify that strength is always greater than attack power because strength will be buffed 10% by blessing of kings, where as attack power won't be. So 61 strength is only 122 attack power for those classes, until you factor in kings, where it. Becomes 134 attack power, while the attack power items don't receive a buff from kings.

[@Zatar]

kings was taken into account for the item prios

[@IronDoped]

I feel like anyone raiding in SW should know what their main dps stat does for the respective class

[@Snxgur]

bow should be fury prio

[@Kyte2261]

kek

[@Berbardo007]

Not sure why so much hate on the prio for Resto shammy's. Like you have prot warriors above us on tier when they should be doing arena and not even needing most of these items. And even putting SV hunters above us when our increase in healing is bigger than SV upgrade. And as you mentioned SV has worthless stats on theirs in the form of hit. Very questionable prot token order.

[@Zatar]

If you look at the stats gained resto shaman just gain less. I mentioned planning around their 4 set, so they can use upgrades. Hunter uses 4 set just like shaman, but they gain more from each piece of tier, even as surv. Resto shamans are very important to keep happy though, so every guild has to go with what works for them.

[@JG-PyroTX]

I'm sorry but the Book of Highborne Hymns is very valid for Hpal Haste build.

[@Zatar]

Hpal haste build is generally considered bad

[@JG-PyroTX]

@@Zatar it really depends on comp I've run both effectively.

[@Zatar]

I suppose. I don’t like flash of light builds, I feel like they just snipe heals and can’t actually keep up tanks when assigned.

[@JG-PyroTX]

@@Zatar I found that for some fights a 0.5 sec reduction of Holy Light + the 0.5 talent makes for more effective quick heals. This requires quite a bit of mana management. I run alchemy for the improved potions and if you add s-priest you can just straight spam HL. Now I agree the default most players should go with is crit focused.

[@sunchung4957]

Hpals are dead last in healing done and -HPS .

[@DjMoenTunez]

"An arms warrior..." the Sliver bias is real here dude ppl run furys nowadays not just arms if you'd pay attention at all... Edit: It also sims way way more than Shard even for dual wield arms, massive power item that sliver trinket. Also: Haste is way more powerful than Arp in the sims even on 7.7 bosses where they both very equal but haste is nuts. You also mention Eles cant use their legs that is so wrong because they use channeled elements from Hyjal same as boomie, same as Spriest. Legs are the 1 piece of all all the support wheels can use instantly without breaking 4 set bonus.

[@andrewa6607]

Yeah let’s give wars 0 stam tier so they can die more frequently

[@jb7595]

Anyone giving Hand to a warrior over enhance has got to be trolling

[@Gavint95]

FYI the 4 set for resto shaman is (imo) nowhere near as good as the off pieces in sunwell. Seeing as the 5% bonus healing to chain heal is only added to the base value and doesnt scale with your bonus healing. So for the shoulders i would just give the mail ones to the resto shaman.

[@Zatar]

You would use 3 piece no matter what, so you give up very little for the 4 set once you have wrist / belt / boots.

[@Gavint95]

@@Zatar true. But with the huge boost in stats from Sunwell gear, the 5% base healing gets heavily outscaled by the hast, mp5 etc. of the comparative off piece.

[@Billybob32101]

this isn't true the 5% bonus is applied to both base heal and bonus healing.

[@romnesia7729]

@@Billybob32101 It's not applied to bonus healing. Just base

[@Zatar]

Wowhead bis list and egregious guide both reccomend 4 set. I think most shamans will be following those sources, maybe they will update though if rshams start opting for off-set shoulders.

[@mattstrat66]

I think your understanding of survival is incomplete for two reasons. 1) Agi is important, and you should have it on every slot except ranged weapon and trinkets, but you don’t stack it at the expense of everything else. You touched on Starstalker vs Immortal Night. As a Surv currently wearing Starstalker, it’s certainly an easier upgrade for us because we’re typically wearing off-set legs already. However, Starstalker over Immortal Night improves your Expose Weakness by less than 4 AP. That is an incredibly small gain to raid DPS almost certainly exceeded by the personal gain of the Surv wearing Immortal Night instead. 2) You were dismissive about Survival’s hit constraints. While Surv has 3% hit from talents that BM does not, BM can wear non-agi pieces with hit that Surv should ignore. That includes neck, cloak, and rings, which can easily exceed the 3% hit provided by Surefooted.

[@Zatar]

The point I was trying to make with the legs, is not is not that startalker legs are bis for survival, but that they gain pretty much the least from getting immortal night over starstalker. For raids that run improved faerie fire, survival hunter will be hit-capped for free with only tier belt, boots and helm enchant. That is why I mention multiple times they don’t need hit.

[@mattstrat66]

@@Zatar Yes, hitting 3% hit with Imp. FF makes capping incredibly easy, but hitting 6% in that scenario isn’t too hard for BMs either. Being able to use the neck, cloak, and ring slots to fit in additional hit gives BMs a lot of flexibility. SV doesn’t have that luxury, and Surefooted makes up for it. But you can also drop points out of Surefooted for 1/2 Trap Mastery and additional HP. So I wouldn’t say going over cap with Surefooted is a waste at all. Just respec a bit. Also, I would guess a lot of guilds that ran Imp FF have dropped or respec’d their druid for SWP progression.

[@Zatar]

The majority of guilds run improve faerie fire. If a guild does force a boomy to respec, usually it is to dream state. Even with no boomy, warriors, bm, even ret would be hurting much more to make up the hit. In bis gear, survival has 2.5% extra hit, without any hit gems.

[@Veiljustin83]

@@mattstrat66 For BM hunters to swap out to hit gears on other slots, they are losing a lot of dps compared to SV using Starstalker over Immortal Night. In terms of raid dps consideration, I will give it to a BM over SV too.

[@michaelbeasley1386]

"i would never give hand of the deciever to a hunter" thats a kekwleave.....

[@Zatar]

The armor pen dagger is almost exactly the same.

[@michaelbeasley1386]

@@Zatar the daggers are good, but unless they fixed the bug the bludgeoning weapon stones add bow damage so wouldn't that be a dps gain? Its def better for other classes but still think it would be a dps increase for hunters as well.

[@Zatar]

Yeah, but the difference from the stone is far less than melee gets from a bis weapon

[@michaelbeasley1386]

@@Zatar i guess we have difference of opinions, but even veramos's bis list guide says hunter absolutely want hand of the deceiver in our main hand, but yes in the argument in pure loot council i would not give it to a hunter over a rogue mainly for the fact that we are just going to use it as a stat stick.

[@Zatar]

From wowhead guide (veramos) “Hand of the Deceiver Is the new absolute best main hand available to Beast Mastery Hunters. This fist weapon however will be sought after by Fury Warriors, Enhance Shamans, and Rogues so taking this from them or asking for it is not ideal and you should never expect it over them. Crux of the Apocalypse however should be a relatively free pick up and using this in both the mainhand and offhand is fairly close overall”

[@DukeNukemIsHere3]

epic

[@F14Flier7]

Lol... "Ele doesn't do well on tier" is pretty inaccurate.

[@Zatar]

I meant my prio doesn’t put them high on tier. Their token is competitive and they are last. I mention it because you would want to give them other items to try and make up for that.

[@VigleikSh4q]

Lost all confidence in your lootlist when you wanted lootcoucils to show warriors hard khorium gloves. Immortal dusk and Thalassian are just on another level. Heck I would stick with Silent justice.

[@Zatar]

Those gloves sim really well when you need hit. Using them instead of gemming hit will yield a dps increase. Try some sims with them, As long as you have at least 868 armor pen and the hit from the gloves doesn’t take you past 6% by much, they will be good in a 6200 armor sim.

[@VigleikSh4q]

@@Zatar but how many gear peices are warriors gonna sacrefice? Unless you already have SSR, I don't see alot of choices that not force you into sub-optimal gear. I do agree the LIN vs FFlegs is close, but forcing warriors into taking scrabs is not the way to go if you want em to raid with you.

[@Zatar]

LIN vs FF is close for warrior, but LIN vs any other classes 2nd bis legs are not, that is the reason you should look to other items for the warriors. Whether that be weapons, tier, cloak, neck, really anything except the legs I think could have a better argument. I do think what you mentioned about the gloves is fair though, and honestly when I double checked the sims, they are so close to the value of gemming hit, you would be typically better off gemming hit and rocking the armor pen gloves, that way you have the ideal glove for early armor pen, and long term bis. I will add a message advising against that to my pin comment.

[@prap7735]

Once you said that warriors and hunters should get tier before enhance I stopped watching. The delta for enh is higher than the other two classes

[@beastwar1286]

Don't give a Spriest their best upgrade in the expansion? Way to go guy. You just gave every Spriest a reason to Gquit until lich king

[@Zatar]

Which item are we about?

[@beastwar1286]

Sunflare- Spriest bis over zhardoom by a huge margin ( if you were even lucky enough to get one of those ). They don't use ToC and most guilds prio'd zhar to locks/mages. It should be treated the same as mindblade was

[@Zatar]

The mace is not far off, you lose crit and sp, but gain haste. Sunflare is a waste on a priest due to the high crit. Sunflare is different than mindblade, because there is no Gruul sword equivalent and it dropped in 10 man Kara vs 25 man sunwell. Of course you could still give the dagger to a shadow priest eventually, but prioritizing it early would be inefficient.

[@MrGlennJohnsen]

Speaking as a Ret with at least half a brain. If it has Armor Pen on it ...don't put yourself in the priority list for it. A) As Ret only 60% of your damage is affected by Armor Penetration, meaning it's better for literally anyone else who stack Armor Penetration. B) Any, and all, Armor Penetration items are *EXTREMELY* contested. C) Play the card "I can pass on all Armor Pen items, just give me Haste+Crit items." Beyond that Sliver on Ret is (very) good, for Human Rets with Sword/Mace and 3 set Tier it's BiS and Shard of Contempt isn't used because you waste too much Expertise.

[@Davenbeast]

This is not correct the only Dmg not affected is from Blood JUDGE, Exorcism and Conc. Seal of Blood is Holy Dmg but based on Weapon Dmg which is affected by Armor Pen. However i highly advice go for the Haste Set too. Secondly BNS is pretty good on any Ret with the Haste Set since they also can stack it fast not only Humans. I highly advice you go watch Surv P5 Loot Guide he has more insight of the trinkets then me

[@Zeracho]

@@Davenbeast Pretty sure seal damage comes from character sheet damage and isn't affected by arpen.

[@Davenbeast]

@@Zeracho Actually true i figured the weapon dmg part would be affected by armor pen but it is applied after

[@dri6328]

Why does this guy assume any guild is running a prot warrior? Lol

[@Zatar]

I put classes like protection warrior, boomkin, elemental shaman on the prio, but not every guild runs one. Obviously, just ignore the prio if you don’t have one.

[@william4996]

Well 1. He plays prot warrior and 2. Sometimes guilds have a really good player that loves playing prot warrior. So they let them play because a really good prot warrior who you get along with is better than a decent bear.

[@dri6328]

@@william4996 still the least viable of the 3 tanks. A decent bear is still better just because of the class.

[@william4996]

@@dri6328 Okay? People still play the class. Info is nice to have because people DO run it.

[@Folsomdsf2]

Prot warrior starts the xpansion decently, starts to suck because bt/hyjal fucks them hardcore on gear. They actually get gear again in sunwell that stops them from being completely fucked 24/7. Because they have so much baseline at the start many had one earlier and you don't kick epople because their class got a little worse for a tier rofl.

[@Rev0UK1]

felspine is essentailly bis for hutners even non weaving giving it to a Ret who would then replace it over game bis for a hunter...would be griefing

[@Zatar]

For a non-human ret, It would be griefing to not give them a weapon upgrade, especially when they are not prio on the two hander from KJ. Hunters get 4 uncontested stat sticks in this phase they can use, 2 of which are bis level.

[@Davenbeast]

sarthe?

[@barrycargill5057]

This guy still thinks guilds run prot warriors, his knowledge on prot pali is non existent. 2/10 on list

[@Zatar]

I think I mentioned it a few times, but if you have your paladin tanking Brutallus, their prio would change on several items. That just won't be the norm in most guilds.

[@romnesia7729]

Barry sounds like a salty human male prot paladin.

[@danday9697]

not all guilds drop tanks just to be "optimized ". there are quite a but of warrior tanks as they were with their guilds since the beginning.

[@baefloyd]

I cant believe you didnt count for arms warrior spamming hamstring to stack BNS. I cant wait for you to justify 0 (ZERO) dps in a real 1v1 debate , I bet you are a rogue and hunter main. Sorry but thats a downvote for me, Ill let Fight Club know to stay clear, ZATAR.

[@Kelsper]

Zatar doesn't know what he's talking about as per usual. Darkmantle is still bis for rogues.

[@Zatar]

But I turned hamstring on in my sim … I tried 😭