Wrath of the Lich is Not a Classic Expansion

In this video, I go over massive differences between Wrath and Vanilla. I discuss why Vanilla did a much better job of keeping player interest outside of raid and felt much more immersive overall.
/ zatar_wow
/ zatar_wow

[@kalsizzle]

Sunwell was the end and sum of classic

[@Corbosieu]

I’m very pleased to see your vid. Some weeks ago I posted a Tumblr note that basically said this : despite everyone remembering wrath as the “best wow expansion” and cata as the retail starting point, reality is very different and you can see it by looking at the design. Wrath is the true beginning of retail and its starting to show as players start “patch logging” like never before.

[@somguy5035]

I log in and wander around, check the AH, and log out Sometimes I'm compelled to level another alt so I could raid on a 3rd character On the fence for the next patch I could be working on my house or golfing

[@somguy5035]

This might seem crazy but the first tier of cata felt more like Vanilla The dungeons were hard and required cc & coordination Blue gear lasted a long time Then they nerfed it and raid finder came out etc

[@ivailomendarov2378]

Its not crazy my guy ,Cata was an awesome expansion leaving pvp outside of the statement ,pve wise was spot on ,class identity was spot on .

[@byteme0000]

See, to me, Cata destroyed the game. The Old World was screwed up, and the railroad-style questing with crazy phasing was putrid.

[@ivailomendarov2378]

@@byteme0000 I get that but compared to majority of the expansions Cata raiding/dungeons were almost not matched :) wotlk for instance is uber boring expansion for me ,like A lot .raiding is easy /dungeons are a joke and apart from raid loging you dont have much to do tbh .Its all personal preference ofc :) i just have Cata in top 3 all time .

[@byteme0000]

@@hushed6160 No disrespect intended at all as there is no accounting for taste and preferences, but yours is clearly a minority opinion. Blizzard experienced a monumental drop-off in the number of subscribers after Cata was released. Google a WoW subscriber-number chart that lists the original game and all of the expansions. The numbers don’t lie. (All that aside, if you actually like Cata, good for you! Perhaps you’ll get your wish and Blizzard will re-release it.)

[@byteme0000]

@@hushed6160 Wait a sec. First of all, I’m in total agreement that retail is dead and irrelevant. And yes, I know that Ulduar is popular… but Ulduar is part of WotLK, not Cata. We we’re initially discussing how bad Cata was.

[@kreythernox5069]

Quit after Ulduar, it's just not Classic anymore. Remembered now why i quit in LK the first time also. Vanilla ist the superior Version, TBC still kinda hit it right, even if Vanilla was better, then LK turned the Game to... well... no clue what it is tbh. No Point logging in outside of Raiding. Gear is worthless in LK, you basicaly exchange every item every raidtier even ( maybe 1-2 items stay ) In Vanilla you had Truestrike Ring from MC still using in Naxx, Dft, TF, Conq Shoulder... You Name it. There was Stuff from every Raid "usefull" even from Dungeons. LK Startet to Turn the Game into a casual Fiesta. Gearing a Twink: Log in, Hit Dungeonfinder, dont communicate at all etc. Some People may have other oppinions but im totally with you on this, for me it just is no Fun at all anymore. Id just come back for a vanilla forever Fresh, and will never advance to addons again.

[@anakinskywalker212]

hard agree man. I do enjoy both of them but I definitely prefer classic vanilla more. Outside of raiding in wrath, I'm usually always logged on classic era instead

[@joshbrown384]

Watching this video makes me SO glad I dropped Wrath and picked Era back up. Way more fun when the world feels smaller and your small wins feel like big victories.

[@cococock2418]

era is garbage, wrath has m,ore average weekly raiders than retail and era combined

[@Tobez]

It really does feel like retail. I got my warrior to 78 and then just ended up going back to classic era. Era is just a different game. The world is so massive and the pacing is slow. I like that personally. I love my old memories of original WOTLK. Had a ton of fun back then but these days I think era is just where I want to be. I felt the same during TBC as well. Edit: I also really like how dangerous the world feels in vanilla. I love trying to solo elite quests but in wrath they removed all the elites in the open world. Everything felt easy and boring.

[@ChessJew]

I miss Classic so much. I'm not sure if I'll continue with Cata, but I miss the fun and immersion of Classic.

[@byteme0000]

Classic is hopping like crazy now. I haven’t seen it this busy and active since 2005. (And I agree, WotLK is WotLK, not Classic, which to me is the original game.)

[@cococock2418]

wotlk is absolutely classic. vanilla is awful trash@@byteme0000

[@byteme0000]

@@cococock2418 'Em's yer thotz?

[@gnarrlly]

completely agree, the shift back to era says a lot about the general opinion too

[@Adam-082]

No it doesn't, its HC Vanilla and its a fad that content creators are pushing so they have more content so people will watch them. Wrath is going strong and has very populated servers.

[@jenkinsleeroy4164]

Not only HC bud pvp cluster is full

[@HallsteinI]

​@@Adam-082 It's not just HC

[@Dualities]

People are forced to make their own content (Hardocre) if the wanna have fun. because the game is so baddly mismanaged. mostly unbalanced servers that destroy a big part of the game world PvP and over expensive boosting that destroy theory crafting and people experiencing altes content raids people coming back to the game

[@phreak9263]

The 'value' of progression for Wrath isn't focused on loot, it's focused on clearing the content. Classic content is a joke comparatively when considering difficulty and execution of raids. So yeah, different games. If Vanilla was a fresh new game I hand't already experienced multiple times I'd be ok with their pacing and jank, but that isn't the case. I detest slow grinding something I've already done before and already knowing what at the end of the tunnel.

[@or8263]

Great video, agree on alot of things. For the gear: while I agree on the pacing issue for gearing, I feel there's a more important issue with gear: there's too much gear. The result of this is you go from third Bis to second Bis and then Bis. But by staggering, the jump in power is just so negligible that it doesn't matter and doesn't feel good. In vanilla you can often go from for example 390 spellpower to 412 spellpower with a single upgrade. In wrath you go 1988 -> 1996 -> 2008. The jumps are smaller and staggered, and it just doesn't feel good.

[@HallsteinI]

I stopped playing Wrath a while back. Nothing wrong with the game and I'm happy for the Wrath enjoyers out there, I'm glad people get to replay their fav expansion. It's just not for me.

[@temporaryname8905]

Great video. I really appreciate retail for letting me try new talents and abilities but I gotta admit the way you appreciate the gear after trying for so long to get it on classic and feel an attachment to it is nice.

[@fdajax5107]

I'm just trying to do ICC and get a Smourne I don't plan on playing cataclysm really, I'm probably going to do classic+/SoM2 if it comes or switch over to retail

[@Riokaii]

its not that gold is massively widely easily available, that would actually cause inflation and make things MORE expensive. If the same supply and demand existed, but people had 10x more gold available, prices would end up stabilizing roughly 10x higher because thats what the time is worth to get that material. The problem is not that gold is more available, its that SUPPLY is so much higher, its so much easier to acquire bulk materials of everything. Ulduar also slows down the gearing pace, because only 1 hardmode Bis item drops per boss. And the bosses have more items in general

[@hcs626]

Wrath has alot of stuff that feels really good about it.... That being said I enjoyed TBC alot as well it feels like a nice inbetween of Vanilla and Wrath. Also damn I wish my current guild could get done in 2 hours, still what it is having to leave the other guild I was in because of not being able to play as much.

[@karolnie212]

It's just matter of time and they make next wow fresh, i hope for some little changes, imagine 1 or 2 new dungeons for every phase with good blue loot and super rare epics like ironfoe that would be just a little worse than raid items from current phase, i would jump into it, make a party and just enjoy dungs. New raids obv would be bonkers but this is a dream, they have such a great base for a little tune to make it fresh and even better than before.

[@cococock2418]

theyre never making fresh. no one wants that besides clowns like this. vanilla is so bad

[@jamminkeys]

even leveling up a new alt (with heirlooms to be fair), azeroth/outland feel so easy, fighting big groups of mobs no problem, feels more like retail for sure

[@Vifts]

I didn't do much endgame in vanilla but I did level a warrior and a druid to 60. My first real raid experience was tanking every boss in TBC up through Sunwell and now playing wrath feels a lot different even compared to TBC. I remember wiping on M'uru because I lost threat on one of the 3 adds that came through the doorway and this was something I had to really focus on even though it's just something simple like grab trash and move it to center. Nothing was really challenging because it was confusing it was just challenging because you had to master the fundamentals. Things hit harder, threat was simple still yet you had to give tanks time and as a tank you had to be even more mindful of what you were doing. Even with half the abilities being used in your rotation I felt like pressing those 3-4 buttons had more thought going into it than the more complex rotations we have in wrath simply because each of those abilities had more weight behind it. Everything in classic and TBC just had that extra weight you had to be mindful of at all times.

[@idkidgaf]

TBC was trash, both vanilla and wrath surpass it in their own ways.

[@henrylastname1221]

As an avid player of both vanilla and TBC, I quit before ulduar :( just waiting for SOM 2 at this point

[@brandonmoreau7297]

Zatar, have you tried the private server turtle wow? It’s classic plus and it’s got some good changes. also has a hardcore mode! Class changes make the meme specs more viable and brings more class diversity

[@JAYDON424]

private servers are dogy af legit creating account that got 8/8 t2 in 1 day sell it to players then ban after they buy it. theres evidence of this happening on elysium private server i wouldnt trust any of them.

[@Ultravis66]

Gold still had value in TBC even though the value was still deflated. I rocked with the same guild from molten core all the way through to Sunwell, but once I got to 80 in wrath, I just lost interest in the game. I made it about 3 weeks doing Naxx, OS, and Eye. After 3rd week, I found myself forcing myself to log in rather than coming home from work and being excited about logging in. So I didnt even make it through phase 1 of wrath.

[@Dualities]

Wrath of the Lich King is an overall improvement to the game. The game could be 3x bigger with actual balanced servers so world PvP wouldn't be dead so the game would actually feel alive. or over expensive boosting that destroys any theory crafting. classes gameplay everything fells better. People are forced to make their own content (Hardocre) if the wanna have fun. because the game is so baddly mismanaged. mostly unbalanced servers that destroy a big part of the game world PvP and over expensive boosting that destroy theory crafting and people experiencing altes content raids people coming back to the game. Only bad thing about wotlk are arguably heirlooms but twinking was always a problem in battleground. and world pvp is dead on most servers because Blčizzard dont know how to manage the game servers

[@StandardisedTest]

Are you just remembering the start of vanilla classic? By AQ/Naxx my guild at 40 people on during raid nights and about 5 otherwise.

[@ykonratev]

What no way there were way more people on In vanilla...wrath literally nobody even logs on. Fighting allies to control nax was so much fun

[@Davidhenry1210]

It easy to say some of these flaws till your average guild tries hard-modes. Wraths main lure was how alt friendly it was so you could try multiple classes. I think the main problem is just players not trying to enjoy the company of others and focusing to much on optimization. Whenever i play games i always try to find the players who max logging in worth it. It makes whatever your doing so much better.

[@tetra3000]

Well well well with the introduction of the Wow Token this game has truly become Retail

[@manimal9871]

Definitely is an old version of retail, nothing beats Vanilla.

[@bradr3541]

Idk in the very beginning of wrath frost lotus went for almost 50 gold from what I remembered. It was way more similar to black lotus and it’s value. Lich king isn’t the issue it’s the server economy, cross realm play and just the fact it’s the second time around. I’m sure classic vanilla and original vanilla have the same differences maybe people just can’t remember

[@user-hx1wz1lv4r]

Thoughts on the new vendor and currencies in WOTLK so now H++ andies can now get hardmode loot

[@Zatar]

I am not sure if the final numbers the vendors will have, they might tweak things. With that said, I already think too much gear is obtainable from conquest. With this, you can be really geared without stepping foot in raid, and catching up is extremely fast.

[@V3SPR]

@@Zatar >catching up is extremely fast That is assuming you have a guild that's willing to run you through H++ dungeons. An actual fresh 80 new player will have a very hard time getting into those dungeons and will likely not find any groups for normal hcs.

[@bidu2331324]

Wotlk is a raiding and pvp minigame. Its a better one than retail tbh but it is still retail like. Vanilla is a world sim.

[@VaranTheCasual]

I still love Wotlk. I think I've reached my limit of frustration with Current Retail last night.

[@olov244]

when the game is too easy, people get bored. also the head and shoulder enchants are boa, so you only do it once and then you never have to farm it again. I never liked wrath, but I just want to clear icc that I missed the first time. tbc was still my favorite but vanilla was great(just my favorite class/specs were worthless)

[@UninterestingASMR]

The only way forward for the "Classic" brand would be to go full classic+ but being careful on adding too much vertical progressive content and more horizontal OR going down the Cata route but also being careful in not nerfing heroics, making sure there's items to farm which lasts players months etc. But atm in Wrath, there's too much gold so there's nothing they can really do in terms of gold inflation etc.

[@danielparker9718]

What did people expect? Did nobody play back during original Vanilla/TBC/Wrath? Wrath is where modern wow took its direction to current retail

[@Guanjyn]

Playing Classic Era for a week and then going back to Wrath is a crazy experience. Really does just feel the same as going back on Retail.

[@Babaganoosh69]

Even TBC didn't feel very Classic to me. It's a fools hope but I'm holding out hope for OSRS style Classic+. Return to the basics and build from there.

[@cecagna]

I quit Classic during Sunwell as Wrath didn't interest me for many of the reasons outlined in this video. Even in TBC you could begin to see the cracks form. Only a few people logged in outside of raid for dailies, leveling alts, gold farming via professions, and so on. One of my favorite quotations about WoW is that in vanilla, Azeroth is the protagonist. The world is new, alive, and open for you to explore. Whereas in TBC onwards the world becomes just an obstacle between instance portals.

[@YepMarko]

Agree with everything. TBC added something that has never been removed that every class need specific dungeon for specific loot. In wotlk you don't even need dungeons, gs is also a thing, instead of hit crit and hp points everyone just ask about gs, and achievements. and for me it's most annoying that you get so easy to all 10 man loot and normal loot from Ulduar now and than wait for weeks for specific gear from hc that never drops or it's so rare, so you are not the one who gets it. So you can have same gs as someone's 5th alt.

[@cronosdimitri4584]

for me gdkp meta = ruined game

[@Paal2005]

I hate gdkp with a passion.

[@dos350]

wrath got me pukin'

[@panjack9849]

Great video. Current retail is at least better in some respects because gathering professions have more depth (specializations within mining and skinning) and moving around the world is more fun. Feels like Wrath is the beginning of a failed experiment and dragonflight undoes some of the changes described here.

[@panjack9849]

Exact same issues with PVP gearing. You get all your items very, very quickly without even having to win battlegrounds, which for whatever reason are EXTREMELY toxic in Wrath.

[@tubesism]

Only classic is classic. Once tbc kicks in it’s all prescribed dailies, queues, and flying mounts kill wpvp. I know not everyone likes pvp, but I wish they put more incentives to participate in wpvp instead of less over time.

[@jarlfisk]

Was so funny back in classic all the retail wotlk babies keot spamming chat: this is just wotlk w8ing room. 😂😂😂 And now they all comolain about it. Very retail mentality. Im happy i stayed with vanilla wow 1.12 p-servers and gave Activision the middle finger.

[@Vassago1913]

Like, what if Blizzard implemented a gold-sink for some benefit to the player??

[@jessekoch3480]

I found Vanilla very very difficult and now at Wrath and having raided my ass off in 09 it's nice just to level and do trades. I like wrath but if blizzard/Microsoft release Cata I'm out again.

[@kevintyrrell7409]

I cannot agree with this video more. The state of WOTLK is absolutely pathetic. I knew this expansion would be raid-loggy and nobody really believed me. However it's worse than I could have imagined. There is no reason to farm consumables, gold, or go out and do ANYTHING in the world outside of achievement hunting. Sad.

[@joshw3719]

Vanilla is the only version of the old while in my opinion. Vanilla is and always will be the absolute king of while and all MMO’s ever made in and unchanged state. #NoChangesAlways!

[@Astix213]

True. Sign under every word

[@megamanx627]

The problem with all of these issues that you're bringing up. They all go back tow If the value of gold goes up what's going to happen infinitely? Is people are going to need to buy gold. It makes a game extremely Unfriendly two new players The class designing classic to extremely restrictive You have no choice and you have to play the game like a job. And 1 of the If reason the game is the way it is If is that midmax mentality of the player base and no rdf Rath's greatest strength is its casual friendliness and its accessibility. There meant for 2 Different audiences people that play Classic are doing it more for the open world And the slow leveling But let's be real the raids brain that easy. Wrath Could have been a fun casual ride but The player base won't allow that because so many people wanted to be vanilla or as close to it as possible. And that's where the problems come in.

[@badass6300]

So WotLK is not a classic expansion, because it's actually great and much better than vanilla? Sure. I do agree that catch-up gear makes the progression non-linear and invalidates older content, the solution would be to scale previous raid tiers to WotLK 10 man Normal. And yes itemization uniqueness suffers when you have multiple difficulties per tier.

[@furryweeber8711]

Classic Vanilla was just the perfect pandemic game with the rest of the world shutdown I could get lost in the World of Warcraft. Nothing will ever replace the memory of vanilla classic from the guild/faction rivalies, drama, open world pvp bloodbaths, world buff meta (though people hated it we all loved the rush of getting and holding onto them). TBC was alright and i have never touched WotLK cuz life happened. The only reason i would go back is to play with my old guild

[@paradeduck]

Wrath feels better when I avoid raids and heroic dungeons - the power level stays reasonable. And dungeons feel good if I avoid raids. Classic did a much better job (through BWL) of integrating the power from raid drops w the rest of the world.

[@viniciusPatto]

My hot take: leveling in tbc and wrath SUCKS

[@Samnader2]

nothing but facts

[@ellescer]

Vanilla will always be the best version to me

[@_faythene]

I don't think you're wrong, but you missed that in wrath you can achieve hunt/ mount/rare farm which can give a sense of personal progression to your character which classic does not offer as much of

[@Maccccccc]

Play on a small server and you'll feel the gold

[@Vincent-uz1ci]

ah yes the best part of vanilla... spending half ur gold on consumes every week

[@thevlaka]

although the elitist toxicity is in both, it's far more prevalent in Wotlk.

[@AverageYTer]

All these things support why I think TBC is the best WoW expansion ever

[@101McAvoy101]

its time for 2019 fresh, no chronoboon, no SoM changes

[@dflowers6771]

wrath has better raids vanilla has better social

[@gnarrlly]

i believe if botting was heavily tackled it would have played differently

[@yukmoutb5885]

if they didnt ruin classic with chronoboons, id still be playing it

[@Mswujek1]

How that ruined classic?

[@Kevin-uj4uu]

@@Mswujek1 i wouldnt say it ruined classic but im with him that it was better without them. i think getting world buffs isnt very fun by itself but its a vehicle to drive gameplay from the other faction. they can gank you or dispel you and you have to be careful. now its pretty much just free power but the only gameplay element is your time getting them. theres nothing much else other then that. the only danger is when its dmf in the opposite faction and even then with portals on the buff giver people just go in as soon as they unboon and get buff herbing is fun on a pvp server because you have to battle for black lotus. herbing itself isnt that fun but it gives gameplay for other fun interactions. on a pve server for example your just mindlessly herbing and theres almost no gameplay.

[@ykonratev]

Out of all the problems that ruined it? It was like the best change they made...

[@mutingall2539]

first!