How to lower off a sport climb with Emma Twyford

[@logtothebase2]

From the title of the video, It would seem to depend entirely on the availability of Emma.

[@huginsamuelsen]

🤣🤣🤣

[@Offsauce]

Best comment I’ve seen in a while

[@samiant5199]

30m up a route, Emma unavailable, instructions unclear

[@mrbaboon3500]

I think it might be worth considering that a beginner might not know what is meant by "resin bolt" and "expansion bolt" or the difference. A visual demo of an expansion bolt hanger, even just and overlay photo as the warning text pops up might make it a bit clearer.

[@bradsuriani2967]

Awesome vid thanks so much. Happy climbing!!

[@drqazlop]

Lowering off glue ins? I didn't think that was accepted anywhere as glue ins can't be replaced (easily). Additionally, and perhaps more importantly, glue ins can be sunk in too far to the point where the rope running through the eyelet would be getting a fair bit of abrasion from the rock and glue while being lowered.

[@tmruss9143]

My question exactly.

[@hugofeldhammer7590]

Absolutely - lowering off glue ins is not acceptable. I don't know if the captions in the video at this point has been added later or if you didn't see them. However, I also think that the demonstration done by Emma is a bit poor here. What she wanted to show is: What happens if the rings are so small that you don't have sufficient space to use technique 1? In order to demonstrate this, she says: Pretend that the large comfortable rings/equipment are not available. Look, there are only this 2 little holes. What she should have said is simply: If you can't get the rope through the rings because they are too small, use technique 2. So please simply pretend that the rings are far smaller in diameter as they are here in this simulation. What I miss in this video are 2 additional safety tips: 1. Use a sling as a personal anchor. Why? Because it gives you way more slack than the quick draw that Emma used as her personal anchor.. This slack enables you to test if the rope can be weighed. So after cleaning the anchor you can ask your belayer to take, weigh the rope and make sure that your personal anchor doesn't hold you anymore - you should be able to only weigh the rope, your personal anchor should have a lot of slack. This way you know that you cleaned the anchor correctly. 2. Let the quick draw below the anchor - the last quick draw below the top - clipped in. While climbing top rope, clip your side of the rope out and clip the side of your belayer in. This last quick draw can act as another safety. As long as you are somehow connected to your rope, but something else went wrong during anchor cleaning, your fall would be stopped by that additional quick draw. A friend of mine fell 30m to her death because her rope was not attached to the fixed anchor, but was correctly attached to her harness. This last safety quick draw would have saved her life 😞As it turned out, they did the weighing test described in my posting's step 1, but obviously not properly. After de-attaching her personal anchor, she immediately fell, never being stopped because the quick draw technique from this posting's step 2 was also not used. Otherwise the techniques described in this video are really helpful and also correctly/properly shown.

[@dereksylvester7596]

Good job Emma - clearly demonstrated and easy to see what you were doing. Liked the suggestion in the first method of tying up the loose end - haven't seen that suggested before.

[@adamsiena8945]

I tie a quick bowline into my harness with the tail. probably faster than a figure 8 on bite with a carabiner

[@doughobbs7706]

6:24 - why do you advise not to thread through the rings as they are are replaceable and held in position with mallions, lowering off on the p hangers directly wears the hanger shortening its life surely?

[@EmilBjrn]

Correct. This was a demonstration of what she calls "Method 2", which is used when the rings are not present (or if they are too small to get a bight through.) I suspect this was the only demonstration anchor in the crag but they still wanted to show a procedure which requires a loose end to work with.

[@Salmontemaki]

2:00 Isn’t that an 8 on a bight? As opposed to double 8

[@markweedon5678]

Method 1 - why speak? You're on lead. Clip yourself into the anchor for comfort, pull slack to do your manouvres. Ask for a take once you've locked your biner, this tests the new system without releasing the original knot at all. Do the rest and lower. People die when its noisy and theres miscommunication. The least noise you have to make/be interpreted, the less chance for miscommunication. 2nd Method - Slick! Tiny little point on being redundant on your anchor before you test your new retread, maybe clip a draw between bolts or something, otherwise really liked the redundancy with the draw and the original knot throughout most of it. Pretty good video overall. Thanks BMC.

[@drqazlop]

Agreed, I prefer not to inform the belayer that I'm in "hard" or "safe" or "indirect", etc. Take, slack, and lower are the only words I see to be necessary if I'm not rappelling.

[@beyondthepale2023]

Good clear demo. I tend to just use an overhand instead of a fig 8 on the bight. Nice idea with the tail but I have never encountered an issue.

[@Furansowakun]

You can also put the tail on your shoulders but anyway yeah it’s not important

[@JV-ty3zc]

Cove hitch nice and quick

[@AndrewHelgeCox]

It would be good to cover the "ram's head" curly whirly type that you just hook the rope into without having to thread any loops. Figuring one of those out at the top of a climb for the first time will make a nervous person like me pucker. I met one first on Portland last year.

[@Shralps]

A what? Going Portland next week. Will be handy to work this out before hand.

[@AndrewHelgeCox]

@@Shralps BMC have a page: How to thread a 'rams head' lower-off

[@colinwatt00]

The main problem I see with these methods is they require the anchors to be around waist level. This is not always the case; many anchors are much higher. Yes, you could use two quick draws end-to-end but I think it’s better practice to promote the use of a personal anchor system. Same idea, but one standard approach for people learning.

[@JV-ty3zc]

If you can afford to lesser quick draws at top yeah sound

[@alexmetcalfe4668]

Good advice Emma. Reviewing this before going for my RCI assessment.

[@AndrewHelgeCox]

Any reason not to have the screwgate in the belay loop while climbing to avoid the risk of dropping it when pumped and moving from rear of belt to the loop?

[@Furansowakun]

Maybe when you climb sometimes it’s boring to have this screwgate hitting the rock

[@Lightning3Zero]

Great video !!! Newbie question : I hear some people talk about using a lanyard for safety during this process , but none used here?

[@pascaljutras178]

I always have a lanyard and normally use it, clipping in top bolt with a quickdraw can be ok but you never know how far your body will be from the bolts, need some possible adjustments. Yes in theory it should not be a problem if belayer pull you up close to the bolt but often I find more comfortable to get feet on some holds instead of holding your full weight in your harness.

[@DomClimbs]

Why never thread expansion bolts?

[@EmilBjrn]

Expansion bolts consists of a bolt that is screwed into the rock and a separate hanger piece made out of plate steel. The plate steel has edges that will destroy the rope if threaded through and weighted. It's the ones present on most artificial walls. Glue hangers on the other hand is a round rod of steel shaped into a P-shape. The hole is drilled and filled with glue and the leg of the P is inserted. It has no edges and thus is gentler in the rope.

[@limnostiger9240]

For method 2, can the next climber then climb up with this system as if they were top roping?

[@308tony]

No. The reason is more to do with the anchor setup rather than the rope setup. You should generally only use the bolts/chains at the finish of a climb to lower off/abseil. If you want to top-rope, you want to setup your own anchor system into the bolts and top-rope off that. That way, you don't erode/damage the bolts which you then NEED TO get down safely.

[@chrismr1119]

I came here to view use of a rams head, not featured, however I've encountered a few times in UK and europe. Also, the wordy partner calls seem unnecessary, I wiuld echo that all I'd expect to use would be "take", "slack", and "lower me", accompanied by belayers name. "Hi xxx thats me okay lower off" risks confusion, especially if theres not line of sight.

[@simonrobbins815]

Useful video, not perfect but better than others on KZbin. One thing that should have been pointed out is that cleaning the anchors is what the last person climbing the route should do. If there are more people intending to bottom rope the route then instead of cleaning the anchors the leader should rig an equalised belay-point using their own gear in order to avoid wear and tear on the in situ chains.

[@librapower7810]

Why does it seems so difficult to get consensus on how to lower off an anchor, so much do this , do that , that is a poor way, surely there is a defacto, standardised method that can be published!

[@YancePants]

I know this comment is 2 years old but seriously it's so frustrating. I came to this video because comments on a different one were like "oh no this is bad you should do it the way THIS video says", and now here we are again. I mean what the f*** it's like this on every "how to clean a sport climbing anchor" it seems 😡

[@mat5671]

@@YancePants whats wrorng with this method ?

[@YancePants]

@mat5671 i don't see anything wrong with it, trying to learn the way to do it myself. I'm just saying that every video has comments saying "no this is wrong, you should do it THIS way", so it's frustrating and difficult to find which one is the right way

[@koenbeeckman87]

First use a sling or the adjustable petzl connect, second i know anchors where the 2 bolts are connected with a chain so you are clipped in both, maybe with this kind of anchors use the petzl dual or evolve

[@brucebourassa5529]

This has advocates lowering of the fixed gear with a grit loaded rope running loaded they the anchor rings. Ergo premature terminal wear. This qualifies as sociopathic as well as expensively destructive. Lower of draws, rappel to clean the route. Do not disconnect the lead rop til the rap system is set including auto block for hands free retrieval of your PAS; & while and cleaning draws while in descent. If any of these terms are obscure to you go find a qualified instructor. No-one on the web has to be certified by any body responsible so you're spinning a roulett wheel seeking basic skills like this in this format

[@andrewdickins2]

I don't understand why on the first method she says to clip the quickdraws in opposing directions when one of them is clipped with the rope and the other is to her harness, surely this would only apply if you're using two draws on the rope to set up a top rope. In this the draws are completely independent and so the opposing direction adds nothing

[@PhweeRage]

If gates are facing each other and they bump together then they can open each other up (if they haven't been done up or are non locking etc). If gates are opposing and they bump, there are no issues. I hope this has helped you understand?

[@joannaknowles8789]

Instead of being lowered, isn't it permissible to abseil down?

[@100.-.clim_bing]

If you know how to abseil (rappel) safely (read: with a backup, like a prusik-knot), it should be perfectly fine. Make sure to have a stopper-knot on both sides of the rope and be redundant when your are switching the rope from climbing to rappelling.

[@joetitterington1222]

Does anyone know where this was filmed?

[@MsMDoris]

Looks like Horseshoe Quarry

[@YouTubeClimb]

100% 안전하게 하강하는게 최고죠~~

[@koenbeeckman87]

The second method is really dangerous to show if someone threads the rope threw a flatter bolt the rope would brake and the person would hit the ground

[@adampnewsome]

Yeah absolutely. There were warnings but still, if someone fast forwarded and happened to miss them... Best case scenario it'll really twist up your rope. I would stay away from method 2.

[@Palek83]

I’d say not to be lowered from two bolts. Your rope really doesn’t like it. If your crag does not have anchors with chain connecting both poins and you want to lower from both, simply take enough slack for it to reach the groud and descend by yourself on both strands. Do not get lowered with rope threaded through two points when both of them are under tension like that. Otherwise your rope will get havily twisted and tangled. Also for the second version you SHOULD descend by yourself or you destroy the bolts.

[@Salmontemaki]

You should clip in & thread through the hangers underneath the maillons

[@EmilBjrn]

If using as anchor for multiple climbs, yes. But if they are not getting weighted downward, this makes them easier to remove at the end when the rings are weighted.

[@caminandoconsergio]

If you dont do a new knot again You lost 2-3 meters of rope. Is a problem if you do a 40m climing route and you have only 80 meters rope. That the first reason I dont recommend this method. The two points of security are not conected and your anchor dont have carabiner with lock sistem.. I dont recommend this lower off.

[@zbnmth]

I agree. Though, 40 meter routes are hard to find in northern Europe, Spain is famous for them.

[@lombas3185]

@@zbnmth Well I live in Spain, so it's good to know

[@Furansowakun]

I prefer method 1

[@AW-po7jr]

You REALLY shouldn’t teach beginners to only secure themself with a QuickDraw to the anchor.

[@zbnmth]

Why? You're on lead all the time. Only when you're going to multipitch would I definitely recommend a sling and safebiner. I do think that she communicated too much in method one, though.

[@AW-po7jr]

Zeb Németh for potentially dangerous situations, you always want to teach beginners ONE method that is failproof. I am not talking about advanced climbers. Beginners are potentially stressed out in the wall, so they might do mistakes if they don’t know a simple and safe method. A QuickDraw not used correctly can easily become a death trap, so don’t use it in this situation. Use a sling with screwgate carabiner instead. That’s way safer. The fact that it’s on lead does only mean that in worst case you probably won’t fall to your death but your belayer gave you enough slack, to break your leg or spine on the rock below. As an advanced climber yourself you know how beginner walls look like, right?

[@zbnmth]

@@AW-po7jr I understand your point, but to teach beginners that there is such a thing as a fail-proof method has its own objections altogether... I agree somewhat, though; it i very student-dependent - and the BMC didn't very clearly mention that the video does not substitute material instruction outside with an experienced teacher. It's a wonky video altogether, suggesting a final authority while it has many flaws in clarity, especially the first method with the doubleasking for a take and slack and... oh well. I left them a thumbs down. Edit: and also, wear a helmet at all times was not demonstrated, even in a dummy situation.

[@sdoowramaj]

Technically the climber is in direct and on belay. In effect the most safe the climber has been all the way up to the anchors. If the quickdraw fails they're on belay from the other draw the rope is running through.

[@sdoowramaj]

@@AW-po7jr I personally don't send beginners up to clean anchors. I'd rather just climb the route again myself.

[@moerush04]

in hard = in direct

[@smeghead666]

One day we'll see a BMC video/quiz/instructor tying an actual figure 8 without crossing the strands. Before anyone states how it doesn't matter, it doesn't but that doesn't negate the fact that it is wrong, you could tie on with and overhand and it would likely hold, you can use an 8 without a stopper and it would happily hold. You can twist your leg loops and wear your harness upside down, it will hold. At what point should it matter? A not neat knot is not a knot. Do everything right.

[@mattbaker1683]

A not neat knot is not a knot at all. And that figure 8 is not a neat knot. BMC you really should be onto this... Also what is a double figure 8? The knots tied were a figure 8 on a bight, and a rethreaded figure 8 (and nearly an overhand on a bight, accidentally)

[@dereksylvester7596]

Nomenclature asside, the knots demonstrated are correct. You could also have mentioned that it's not a belay station but is in fact a lower off. Despite the former it's still, by a long way, one of the most concise and clear demonstrations of sport lowering off I've seen.

[@mattbaker1683]

@@dereksylvester7596 yes they are correct, but just not tidy in any example shown, with the target audience largely being indoor climbers looking to move outdoors or outdoor top-rope climbers looking to get into sport climbing, this should be a spot on, no questions asked example. The fumble with the overhand could have been edited out and a closeup of a neatly dressed figure 8 could be put in, after all there is nobody else there to check your knot at the top of a climb. That aside it is a good instructional video, but the BMC standards should be unquestionably good.

[@lukeaurand5722]

Matt Baker Definitely not the AMGA....

[@SummitSmile]

I learned nothing from this and I don't think it's my fault.

[@zbnmth]

Other than it being not deadly, therefore technically safe, I find his video cluttery, unethical towards bolters and misinterpretable. If there's a "Lower Off and Belay Simulator" being put in place by some club, with a QR-code and everything, at least place a second type of anchor to the side, so method two becomes realistically trained. Now it's just confusing to leaners. The rest of critical notes has been mentioned in other comments.

[@Tom-in6fk]

ugh - DO NOT lower off rap bolts, unless it's an emergency or you used YOUR money to install them. Your laziness and/or lack of ability should not be the reason to put unnecessary wear on the hardware. Learn how to properly clean a route and rap off.

[@luistradisrad8649]

Also i disagree with all of these methods. You are showing people its ok to belay down on the anchor gear which is gonna wear out the gear. You should only be belayed on YOUR own gear. Rappel down the route so you are not destroying the gear that someone else put the hard work effort and money. Also why would you use a quick draw instead of a locking gate. I don't want to come off as mean but this is all wrong

[@zbnmth]

It's not right to make a top-rope out of it, indeed. But if you are cleaning up the route, belaying down on maillons is okay. Never belay down on direct (round) bolts, I agree. Anything with a removable round piece of equipment, I usually pay a fee to the local caretaker to check those every now and then, to be replaced with same-metal-as-the-bolt-maillon rapides. If you're going for a full rappel, you'd need more than a quickdraw to attach yourself to the anchor as well. ...Just some more thoughts on this subject.

[@ROSER6410]

Repelling is the most dangerous parts of climbing, why would you be encouraging people to severely increase their risk of death or injury to save a few quid on gear, rather than use a perfect safe method? Perhaps you should encourage people to donate a few pounds into the local bolt fund or join the BMC as they support a lot of revolting / replacing gear.

[@luistradisrad8649]

@@ROSER6410 Maybe that's what goes on in Europe but we in states rap down our routes its dangerous only if you use improper techniques... i understand where you are coming from but I think its just lazy to belay off the bolts. Just think if every one is being belayed off the gear its gonna eat your rope and those bolts are gonna be trash.. but to each their own.

[@luistradisrad8649]

@@zbnmth yea i always have a PAS on my harness girth hitched

[@sdoowramaj]

Most crags that I go to specifically say to lower off rather than rappel. I pay dues to my statewide climbers coalition to fund the purchase and installing of new rings. I do rappel when there's a potential for rope wear over sharp rock though. Most of the crags also encourage top roping through your own gear rather than the fixed gear. Locking gate is not necessary because she's in direct AND on belay through the other draw that she's clipped into. If the quickdraw fails then she's still safe and on belay.