TEDxAdelaide - Lorimer Moseley - Why Things Hurt

[@SUZABQ]

I am a physical therapist, this video changed my practice when treating my chronic pain patients from ineffective to effective... I have been watching all videos about chronic pain, talking courses, studying, taking classes by the NOI Group for the last 5 years and I have changed my practice completely. Thanks Mossley et. al. through your hard work and dedication to teaching the information I have helped a lot of folks in New Mexico!

[@johnathanabrams8434]

In the words of Adriaan louw, if physical therapist are so good, why are patients so bad ?

[@WillWinterz]

Based.

[@thor498]

Same here in Germany

[@JAndrewsIII]

Please... check about TMS from Dr Jhon E Sarno, it complement this very well.

[@elisatravis5200]

I am a pelvic floor PT in MO. Would love to connect with you. Just discovered Ryan Peebles course. Are you familiar?

[@Katherine.2024.]

This video was the start of turning my life around

[@ronervine]

Hey Katherine would you be able to reccomend any good books ? I'm embarking on a road to hopeful recovery. Have had chronic pain for a few years now. Would be great to get my life back. Or at least be out of pain.

[@susandezelan6067]

@@Katherine.2024. Yes, I just finished reading one of Sarno's books. So happy you are turning your life around. I am currently watching a video series by a couple who explains Sarno's ideas a little more in depth. I appreciate the other names and will research them as well.

[@Katherine.2024.]

@@susandezelan6067 thank you! There's another great book that I can now recommend: The Way Out by Alan Gordon

[@jonnolags]

@@susandezelan6067 What's the video series called?

[@kitplummer9478]

Look into Adriaan Louw as well. There is a lot of amazing research out there. The more you learn and understand how pain works the less control over your life it has. Safe journeys to everyone.

[@mcharlie260]

In 2021 he's still getting people with "turn your head on the side".

[@lisaduffy8877]

What an awesome video! I'm beginning to see my chronic pain of the last 21 years in a new light. Education is power! God Bless You!

[@thor498]

Yeah you can get rid of it!

[@alectambornini2257]

I had chronic widespread joint, muscle, and nerve pain for years following a back injury. It put me out of work and school and doctors could not figure out what was wrong with me. When I spoke therapists who are part of the BodyInMind group along with Dr. Moseley, they told me that this situation is all too common. After working with physiotherapists who follow this approach, and subsequently recovering from the chronic pain through increasing exercise exposure, I am convinced that Dr. Moseley and his colleagues are leading the way in chronic pain treatment. Hopefully this reaches mainstream medical treatment. Motion is lotion!

[@pcm9454]

Hello Alec Tambornini, Can you please help me with the people who helped you recover from nerve pain? I have it everywhere. I need help. 🙏🏽♥️

[@alectambornini2257]

@@pcm9454 formphysiotherapy adelaide australia

[@pcm9454]

@@alectambornini2257 Thank you Alec, God bless you🙏🏽♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️

[@alectambornini2257]

@@pcm9454 Update: I'm still pain free by the way. I just stay active :) You can do it!

[@pcm9454]

@@alectambornini2257 you are so very kind!!! Thank you Alec. Do you think so? I experience full body burning nerve pain from crps. By physiotherapist you mean a physical therapist? Thank you 😊 ♥️

[@robbiereilly]

He is 100% correct, however, as others have pointed out, this evidence - that pain is only in your head - can have a negative effect in the mindset of those not suffering with pain. Non-sufferers tend to dismiss the agony of the sufferer with statements and notions such as, 'Just change your way of thinking' 'think it away' etc. We can see examples of this in the comments right here, below, let alone in one's daily life. True, pain is in the head. But so is the pain of hunger- not your stomach, but in your head. So is the pain of fatigue, exhaustion, sleep deprivation. All these are 'in the head'. Yet, can any of us 'think these away'? Even if we could, would it be a good idea for our well being and survival for us to do so? I think not. Cheers from Tokyo.

[@Bobby007D]

You might be able to psyche out pain if you have the will power and strength to do so. However , people who are chronic , DO NOT have the ability to use re-education of neuro pathways to pretend , like there is no pain. Plasticity , takes years and years to take effect . Opioid meds , are on earth , for just that exact reason. It is so unfortunate , that those people in chronic pain , are being denied opioid treatments , because of drug abuse by people who are NOT in physical pain and the industries vacillation on the legitimacy of the use of opioids.

[@asparagusbear3323]

The research does show that there are problems in the tissue but the pain signals are oversensitized. he mentions this at the beginning when he states that pain is from the tissue and in the brain.

[@iammew]

@Mark Fox Have you explored the late Dr. John Sarno's books about pain? Could be helpful for you.

[@uguana11]

I didn't see the speaker mention the idea of "thinking" the pain away at any point. In fact, he said there is something that can be done about it, but that would be saved for another lecture. The brain seems to tell me to eat and sleep respectively when I feel those types of pain. If your brain hasn't been introduced to the idea of what is actually causing your pain, then you can get trapped in the illusion that something is still physically wrong in your tissues, when in reality the issue is an overly sensitized nervous system. So no, it wouldn't be good to eliminate pain or we wouldn't survive, but working to reduce the chronic sensation of pain absolutely is a good idea.

[@jamieeason1132]

Lorimer is not saying that the pain is in your head. He is saying that pain is created in the brain. Chronic pain sufferers do not imagine their pain, it's real. However, the vast majority of chronic pain is created by corrupt neural pathways. And yes, you can correct these pathways with training. Have a look at videos of Dr Howard Schubiner or Dr John Stracks.

[@ileneapplebaum928]

I just had hip surgery and to imagine the sensations of pain I did feel before and now. My brain sensed it and helped me deal with it, but to say I didn't hurt is an understatement. I feel having undue stress in one's life will make pain feel worse. So meditation has been helpful. I have back issues but continue to workout and relax. Pain is real, it's how you deal with it in everyday life.

[@The_One_Called_Keith]

Thank you so much for the clip. Got informed about it by somebody i just met. Just had surgery 1 month ago and in extreme pain, not from surgery, but the inflammation which caused the swelling. I always assumed the injured body part sends the pain signal to your brain, and must admit only recently started to wonder how painkillers works. This was a HUGE eye opener and gives me something to work with to manage the pain I experience. I now have to figure out how to over-rule my brain and inform it, that I do not experience as extreme pain as it makes me believe currently. Must say this does not cover why people with amputations feel itch or pain in missing limbs. But at least I now know, I can learn to control my mind to associate the correct amount of pain to my situation.

[@GodlessManitoban]

People with amputations experience phantom pain. The brain knows a limb used to be there and hasn't accepted it's gone. Or something like that.

[@leora2455]

The answer is - you must keep on moving your body despite your pain to show your mind that your body is fine and the pain isnt useful anymore. And when pain comes you have to brush it off as it is nothing even if it comes with full force and many times... with time your pain should subside or even disapear. I have a friend who was diagnosed with 12 Chronic pain conditions that were incurable for the doctors. He couldnt leave his bed, he couldnt talk, shave or lift anything heavier than a fork. He did this and after a few months his body made a full recovery and he got completely functional and painless WITHOUT any medication! I would have said it was bull if I had not seen him myself.

[@Lionhardt15]

xrays and mri's are only pictures at a moment in time and are best to show bigger structural abnormalities. They don't show the nervous system lighting up every time a movement irritates soft tissue or in chronic pain, lighting up because that movement used to hurt and the body has sensitized itself to make you think it will hurt as a protective mechanism. By protecting a part of your body and not moving it for long periods of time has been shown to be very counter productive for healing.

[@ByteHeisenNerd]

I think this area of "Pain Science" is so amazing, however its so sad that so many dismiss it because they think it is cause for attacking those with chronic pain. I do agree he should preface it with a large bolded "This Pain is Real for those Experiencing it", because he did mention it, just very lightly. It becomes especially apparent in his story about himself, and how he experienced excruciating pain from an experience his brain recalled as traumatic, that was only a cut. This science can really help us add another means of helping those with pain, and help redesign some of our education to the general public, as he mentions on topics such as "slipped discs".

[@boltonwandererskings]

started watching at the suggestion of my physio (in the UK). The "mate" thing started to irritate but actually warmed to this man and feel I would pay money if he ever took up comedy in the UK. The subject matter is very relevant to me so hopefully the next session will provide some relief

[@ToryKlementsen]

As someone who has lived with a headache for five years now, I want to believe this SO much. There is truly nothing physiologically wrong with me, but my pain receptors are just having one big party in there shooting off like it's the fourth of July in Texas and they are on a weekend bender! No medication touches it, and it has impacted my life quite a bit (although not to the point where I let it stop me from doing what I want to do). I hate it and I want it gone. I have to look up more of his stuff because F this pain. I am SO over it. I found him because I am participating in a chronic pain study and this was a suggested video.

[@seanymoseley]

Tory Klementsen have you been checked for suffering from cervicogenic headaches?

[@ToryKlementsen]

seanymoseley Yes I have, thanks for asking. There is no physiological reason for the headaches. They seem to be neurologic.

[@reginageorge5079]

Read Anthony Williams book and get some real answers

[@paullietz4]

Have you gone to physical therapy? I am in school becoming a doctor of physical therapy and we are taught to help with headaches after we find the source.

[@ToryKlementsen]

I have. In fact I went for almost a year after my brain hemorrhage. The massages helped with the muscular issues, but unfortunately my pain is neuropathic. I did just have a nerve ablation of the sphenopalatine ganglion nerve; specifically the one that relates to headaches, on the right side. I'm having the second procedure on the left side tomorrow. I am a huge believer in PT. It helped strengthen my gastroc/soleus when I had Plantar Fasciitis. No issues with it now and I run a lot! It killed me to drop from marathons to half marathons for almost a year!

[@reneebueckert9882]

This video has been life altering... Lorimer does an amazing job of animating/illustrating how the pain signal gets stuck and then I found the book "The Way Out" by Alan Gordon that outlines the author's journey out of chronic (unexplained) pain and an evidence-based treatment "Pain Reprocessing Therapy"... thank goodness for neuroscientists like Lorimer

[@eqminds]

This is fantastic!! Dr Lorimer Moseley - your research and delivery of this topic is at the top of its game. Definitely worth sharing for people who still have residual nerve pain after surgery. My husband went through a study at Prince of Wales Private Hospital this year (2016) called Resolve. This video was part of week 1 of training! If anyone is still having back pain after surgery and structurally everything is fine in the back - get enrolled into this clinical trial! My husband after 3 years of pain after his back surgery - is now pain free, skiing, running and throwing our daughter on his shoulders. I hope you guys get the same results. Thanks again Dr Moseley - really important work!!

[@EmmaWalkeryou2015]

I'm researching reducing neuropathy at home and found a fantastic website at Gabs Neuro Guide (google it if you are interested)

[@stuartlawsonbeattie1411]

Chelsea, I like your ambition but where nerve damage is concerned, there is no ideal treatment as I have found there are many different syptom sets but also nerves and mental attitudes and aptitude differ radically from person to person, so this guy sounds like a complete genious with certain patients, great for him and them but not all. Glad your circumstances were much improved though, bless you.

[@stuartlawsonbeattie1411]

@BethAnn Shoenfeld what is it with abbreviations???????????????????????

[@hummingpylon]

This guy should be an actor, but he's in a more honest field, as a researcher/scientist. Bless him.

[@cpodgorelec]

He is better than Dr House from the TV American series - played by Hugh Laurie.

[@tylerhoeseph6388]

as a 15 year old chronic pain patient, this was super helpful

[@kathel5427]

I have chronic pain and I totally agree that the way I perceive my pain might be worse than the situation is actually worth. In that retrospect I remember having to get injections on a weekly basis and with every time the pain from the injection spreading through my body increased until I had to stop. What I want to know now ofc is how can I not feel the pain so much, especially when I know I shouldn't have pain right now and the pain comes more from my body trying to protect me from further damage to my joints? (ie: no visible signs of damage or swelling but still lingering pain due to having it experienced for too long in that spot)

[@Jenger69]

I would suggest reading “The way Out” by Alan Gordon and Alon Ziv. It spells it out well and has a directory in the back to refer you to therapists in your area as well. It has changed my life. I am not totally pain free but WAY better and getting off all my narcotics. I’m learning how to stop the signals in their tracks. Good luck! Reach out if I can help more

[@Markusmcb1]

Perception has a massive influence on pain. I read in "Your Body, Only Better" that the same injury but in different situation can result in different pain sensations. This is a really interesting subject and shows just how much the brain can influence how much discomfort we feel.

[@langwarrinhypnotherapy3975]

I love the way this is explained, so accurate. I specialise in helping those suffering with Chronic Pain through Hypnotherapy it's fantastic to hear the medical community explaining it's all in your head. Cheers Tas Lombardo Langwarrin Hypnotherapy

[@peppat27]

The epitomy of irony. Pain is supposed to be a protection. And yet it becomes the thing that makes life unbearable at times. I say this as a Fibromyalgia sufferer.

[@vidiveniviciDCLXVI]

Aye, from a fellow Fibro sufferer.

[@isabellerowan68]

I suffer with Ankaloysing spondylitis and rheumatoid arthritis, the pain is beyond anything I can explain...

[@catherine8326]

Isabelle Rowan Are you able to access cbd oil? It has changed my life.

[@catherine8326]

I’m so sorry for your pain. Cbd oil has changed my life..sadly it’s very expensive.

[@tiagohenriques9495]

@@vidiveniviciDCLXVI Look up Dr. John Sarno

[@ccburro1]

It is taking (too much) time for this (relatively new) paradigm for pain to get accurately understood by all/most of the doctors who treat chronic pain patients, and conveyed accurately to pain patients, etc.

[@organichypnotherapy]

What an excellent explanation of pain messages! It is a pity that it ended so quickly and the description of how chronic pain is different from acute pain was so brief. In reality the chronic pain as a message that persists can also be dealt with by our mind, using a simple brain bargaining technique - a way of explaining to our own self that the message is no longer needed...!

[@katjaolsen1017]

@erow80 Book "the way out", the app "curable" and their workshops and groups, Moseleys own books, "tell me about your pain" podcast, anything by howard schubiner, pain reprocessing therapy. Much more.

[@robertwhite2449]

Funny and informative about the neuro biology of pain, but I agree with others it's mainly useful for understanding acute pain. I have been attending pain management and education classes for the last 8 weeks and it's done little to improve my perception of my chronic pelvic pain / prostatitis

[@Roflirl2]

like you said this is about primary/acute pain, secundary pain is something totally different which doesn't even go to your brain. It goes to your spinal cord seperates substance P into the peripheral nervous system. This is usually where the chronic pain occures and thus make it more of an emotional/mental problem rather than phyiscally. Eventhough it still hurts physically.

[@inneybaby2506]

So would you tell someone with Cancer that their pain isn't real & only a figment of their imagination? Responses like yours only shame people that are truly suffering.

[@thor498]

No it's even more true for chronic pain

[@thor498]

​@@Roflirl2there is no pain output with out the brain

[@catherine8326]

Absolutely incredible talk. Mind blowing. I’m still trying to process it, & it’s implications. ‘The pain is a visual illusion Neurobiology of pain Nociceptors...spinal cord...thalamus...brain has to evaluate Pain is about survival. Danger message arrives at the brain. Brain has to ask the question: what’s happening? How do we convince people who are in pain Understand that Pain is the end result eg knife, cold, metal, hard, doesn’t have the properties of pain Pain is the construct of the brain What is the meaning of the stimulus? eg the color red is associated with danger/heat’

[@awaytolivewell]

Absolutely love this entertaining and informative talk, very useful in my work as a clinical massage therapist and yoga teacher. Lorimer is fantastic

[@JasonKirin]

I'll thumbs up if that helps? There is a questioning and removal process of TED videos in place; you can even Google "banned TED talks" and you'll find them. The removal process happens when content can be unmistakably refuted and discredited. Moseley is really saying what's what; thoughts that fire together wire together; tolerances build to all sensations and the brain creates more. Pain is, very, real - it just comes from our brains; and that really makes sense!

[@Lionhardt15]

A lot of people with chronic pain don't take Aspirin, rather they are on opiods which don't act on your body, but depress activation in the central nervous system. In essence dulling the brains perception of pain. If you want to convince the mind there is no pain, a lot of research has indicated that by slowly increasing exposure to a very slightly painful movement a lot of times every day will help the brain realize, hey, this actually doesn't hurt. Then you continually move on.

[@KingRooster]

Pain can occur with or without actual trauma. We always receive signals through our 5 senses, pain is just one of the outputs, like hunger, sleepiness, etc. Pain is your brain's 'opinion' of what is happening, and your brain is not always necessarily correct, just like in optical illusions. Pain is an output, not an input.

[@nikkibel.viewer]

ahhhhh AMAZING MEMORY PALACE TO REMEMBER PAIN PATHWAY! thanks heaps

[@daviddressler4783]

In my treatment of back pain--some 10,000+ patients spanning three decades, I can say that most chronic back pain has both a physical and psychological cause. Let me explain: I am speaking here of back pain as a condition, not a disease. This means it is ultimately caused by some biomechanical dysfunction (keeping the psychological aspect aside forthe moment).The vast majority of people with chronic back pain have spinal joint dysfunction and muscular tension. These are the kinds of conditions most often seen by chiropractors, osteopaths, physical therapists, and massage therapists. I would add that medical doctors are generally not trained to evaluate spinal joint dysfunction. They may not know, for example, that the sacrum may be in pain because the atlas (first cervical vertebra) is misaligned and not moving properly at the other end of the spine. They would not know that treating the atlas can often remove all of the pain and even sciatica going on in the lumbar and pelvic regions. My point is that medical evaluation is not sufficient. There needs to be examination by other qualified professionals in the case of chronic back pain. My other point is that adjusting the spinal joints and releasing accompanying muscular hypertonicity (tension) often gets rid of the pain. Except when.... There is a patient like this one I had. Complaining of low-back pain, unable to bend forward more than about 45 degrees, result of a work-related injury. Treated with spinal joint and sacroiliac mobilization and massage, straightening his spine considerably. Arises from the table. Asked to bend forward and can now touch his toes. Asked the pain is now, his eyes glaze slightly and he says, "The same, no different." I say, "But you can touch your toes now." I press on his sacroiliac which had been painful on pressure half an hour earlier. He says there is no pain there anymore--and looks confused. What happened? Function was restored. Pain on palpation was gone. Where was this patient's pain? Was he lying? Malingering? I learned in that moment of his eyes glazing over that he was reporting on pain from THE PAST, not the present! He actually believed that he still hurt, even though pressing the previously painful places did not hurt, according to him. Pain in THE PRESENT did not exist. Pain from THE PAST was being perceived--mis-perceived--as taking place in the present. It was "recorded pain," not pain "live and direct." The memory of pain. This does not make past pain that seems to be present pain any less real. But it does have to be clearly distinguished from present, palpable pain. And it does have to be treated differently. However--and this is my point too--the biomechanical causes of pain--the misaligned spinal joints and excess muscle tension--have to be removed in order to 1) find out whether there is any other source of pain than purely physical/biomechanical, and 2) when there is, to treat past pain in the brain with other therapies than the purely physical. And all this requires making a full physical biomechanical assessment, and that is best done by professionals with that kind of training.

[@lisalovewarrior]

Thank you David Dressler, for introducing this concept of the mind/consciousness/psychological aspects. Bums me out a little to think that most people are not taking it into consideration here. What if we ask the question, "who would you be without your pain?" What would they say? Could we/they comprehend a life without it? And if not, why? Sincerely curious.

[@realphysiotherapy606]

don't really get what you talked about. maybe you talked about exposure training, but well, every one has opinions, my advice would be: keep opened mind, learn some (pain) science. Pain is constructed in brain, it doesn't always reflect state of tissue. Chronic pain is less about physical, biomechanical, structural...more about neural sensitivity.

[@handigolfer]

I suffer from chronic pain, it stops me in my tracks now and then, as I broke 3 vertebrae (neck) and I am the proud owner of what is called a brachial plexus, which is groovy on the brain to say the least. The damage is in the spine, the pain manifests itself in the hand, and the inside of my thumb is hyper sensitive, which is an understatement. Over the years I have ignored most doctors who want to implant electronics in me or give me copiuose amounts of Oxycodine (fentanyl). I concentrated on my mind set, use a bit of pot, play golf and have imagined my own on and off switch in my head. What this means is instead of resisting waves of pain when they happen or take drugs, I allow it to happen, U submit to it, then it reseeds faster. When pain in my hand gets so bad it gets up my arm, into me neck and my right eye, I lay down for a bit, meditate and all is flowers in the garden. If I need total relief, which is basically, giving my body a break, I get stoned off my face and whatch comedy & of course, golf, which is way more funny when stoned..

[@MrMitchgries]

Great speaker, informative and quite witty. I always like to expand my mind as to the causes and maintenance of pain.

[@justtina577]

The Pain Antidote: The Proven Program to Help You Stop Suffering from Chronic Pain, Avoid Addiction to Painkillers--and Reclaim Your Life Paperback - May 26, 2015 by Mel Pohl and Katherine Ketcham. This book also covers what Moseley tells us about pain and I guess how to trick or retrain the brain... I have not actually read it, but I was helping a fellow student with the referencing side of a psychology assignment and came across it.

[@Dawn65Zumba]

Excellent talk. I share this with my patients and they love it.

[@andy4an]

when he said "wearing a sarong" and then mimed the bite, I thought he was miming the sarong catching on something. But fascinating talk. I love his challenge, and I would love to hear more on this topic.

[@MrPuddnhead]

I'd really like to hear him talk about his research on what to do about it. If pain is all in your mind, how to convince the mind that there is no pain? Also, why do pain killers work? Placebo effect? I don't think so. This was a very interesting talk that brings so many questions to mind.

[@p123-i9s]

I read a book where the author simply said, "Believe in my theory about pain [TMS], and the pain will go. If you don't, it won't." That was it, in a nutshell. Makes one despair.

[@stephaniegrow3761]

The pain (you experience) IS in the mind. But as others have said, it is a response that your body uses to protect itself against injury. When you get injured, you experience pain. If the thing that injured you is not addressed (and in a real way... not with pain killers or body numbing anesthesia), then the pain continues, becoming chronic pain. The real question is, is the medical profession going to spend the time and effort needed in diagnosing the injury, or ongoing injury (since a medical situation that isn't addressed at it's root cause is only going to get worse), that is causing the pain to begin with?

[@leora2455]

The answer is - you must keep on moving your body despite your pain to show your mind that your body is fine and the pain isnt useful anymore. And when pain comes you have to brush it off as it is nothing even if it comes with full force and many times... with time your pain should subside or even disapear. I have a friend who was diagnosed with 12 Chronic pain conditions that were incurable for the doctors. He couldnt leave his bed, he couldnt talk, shave or lift anything heavier than a fork. He did this and after a few months his body made a full recovery and he got completely functional and painless WITHOUT any medication! I would have said it was bull if I had not seen him myself.

[@ClaudetteMiss]

@@p123-i9s This video guy says something similar. In one of his videos, "The first thing you need to do is believe me". Uh no. That's a screaming red flag

[@maverickcanaval5833]

I don't know if u ever will read this but i was the guy at the hostel from Ica, Peru, who you teached about this. Thanks.... i took too long to watch it but i'm doing it. Vibes!

[@JasonKirin]

You're also correct though in another assumption; many TEDers don't question what they see simply because TED said it. Which is really quite a shame. I've been an extremely proud TEDer for years... There is a lot of crap on that site, no doubt. E.g. check out Charles Fleischer's (yes, the voice of Roger Rabbit) "Everything is Moleeds." I'm still not certain if it's shtick or not.

[@feij3988]

Very informative video! Did the second "TEDx talk eva" come out?

[@Andreas748]

I broke my leg years ago clean through. I didn't know it was broken and walked around all day til I got xrays. It was painful, but no where near as bad as my back pain which shows no abnormalities on xrays and mri's. How can this be??

[@12345andrews]

central sentizisation

[@pt.is.education5747]

Because structural damage isn't correlated 1:1 to pain

[@elvisp5081]

When it comes to the back 99 % of the time there is a cause most of it mechanical there fore if you are triggering that daily the pain will continue to ramp up until tissue is sensitized, the pain is NOT IN YOUR HEAD. Read back mechanic by Stuart Mcgill

[@pt.is.education5747]

@@elvisp5081 wtf Talking about back pain, most of it isn't structurally caused. Pain is 100% output of our CNS

[@JJphysio]

@@pt.is.education5747 coming to a lorimer mosely ted talk about pain with a mcgill reference..

[@Hemlatasingh923]

Thank you TED for such informative talk

[@charlottestocker2620]

This is very interesting, but I still can't get my head around explaining period pain

[@Rybot9000]

I wonder if this ties into the frequent headaches people get from stress. Perhaps some of that stress is just maintaining "pain" networks designed to guide social behavior.

[@wellbeingandwomen3095]

Excellent talk, thank you so much!

[@eegs25]

Pain is an experience which is modulated at many levels. Pain can present without any peripheral stimulus (phantom pain). Similarly nociceptive input doesn't necessarily lead to the experience of pain (those wounded in war who have no pain at the time). This neuromatrix theory accounts for pain as a result of peripheral nociception (e.g. inflammatory cascade stimulating pain receptors) whilst also providing an explanation as to why someone can feel pain in the absence of peripheral input.

[@Andreas748]

tell me how! I injured my back 9.5 years ago and still I can't bend like a normal person despite xrays being normal. I've had countless other injuries and broken bones, but they were childs play compared to my back trouble

[@wazouskisan5473]

The back is much more important than, say, the knee. This is because the spine is the body's central support structure, connecting bones and keeping us upright. In addition, spinal nerves carry most electrical signals from the brain to skeletal muscles and organs through the spinal cord and vise versa, also carrying sensory information like touch, pressure, cold, warmth, or pain in the same fashion. My suggestion would be to stretch daily, but do not over do it. Trust me, you will know if you over work your back. Work on posture and balance. Get a massage as the pain might not even be derived from not retraining your brain, (I worded that weirdly and it seemed kind of aggressive so I apologize for that) but the muscles or joints surrounding it. Hope this helps anyone who has the same question!

[@mehdialiouat2897]

Go to a FRC care provider

[@joeybaggs4059]

The brain is the master organ that processes pain signals from the body. The brain processes pain signals as sensations, emotions, and thoughts (not just a pure sensation). Thoughts and emotions can make the experience of pain much worse, or much more manageable. Thoughts and emotions directly influence the pain signals coming into the body. Now, does it work for everyone, of course not? People are weak when it comes to change. The brain becomes more sensitive to pain signals with chronic pain. This is why you might be more sensitive to pain signals than other people after living with pain for a long time. But you can learn ways to help lower the “pain thermostat” of the brain. Chronic pain is a chronic illness. Like diabetes, high blood pressure, or asthma, chronic pain needs long-term management, including lifestyle changes as well as medical treatment. IMHO...

[@Lionhardt15]

Find a physiotherapist that specializes in working with people who suffer from chronic pain. They will help you a lot with your fear of re-injury so you can sustain your progress.

[@rscranman2002]

Lorimer is a legend!

[@angeliquebarbey971]

I have what might be called CHRONIC BLADDER PAIN MYSTERY SYNDROME. It is chronic as no-one knows how to diagnose it and therefore there is no sure treatment for it, however, somehow I do not feel that this guy has the answers for me, rather I do myself though I need to keep working on it and my pelvic floor therapist hopefully can help, moreover, some of this chronic pain may slip into pleasure with the X factor. Naturally I want more of the latter rather than the former and I am working on it! Needless to say this guy does not delve into a pleasure aspect which to me is the same side of the coin so to speak!

[@carlosangulo11]

Wow!! Incredible and useful video!! Thank you so much 🙏🏻Unconditional love to all ❤️ ♾️ 🌌

[@BelleMusicChannel]

How would you explain Tinnitus? If it’s a constant noise?

[@jor662]

So how do you stop this happening then when you do have pain? He didn’t answer that.

[@wildhover]

good point. I think what SMARTchiropractic was trying to say is that acute pain is still a perception, but then becomes an illusion to the nervous system once it becomes a chronic/persistent pain.

[@libertarianx15x66]

Until you're dead asleep and pain wakes you up.. what's that about

[@batshitlazy]

A question about the scientific method involved.. just because they showed pain can be manufactured by the brain but how does that imply that pain is *only and always* manufactured by the brain and has *not much* to do with tissues?

[@laurenjoseph4629]

Interesting topic, but I must say as a chronic pain sufferer, that I was hoping for a way to convince the brain that I am not in pain.

[@Override.Health]

Hi Lauren, What have you been experiencing? How have you been?

[@leora2455]

There is... you must keep on moving your body despite your pain to show your mind that your body is fine and the pain isnt useful anymore. And when pain comes you have to brush it off as it is nothing even if it comes with full force and many times... with time your pain should subside or even disapear

[@amyhendricks3627]

@@leora2455 if the pain comes from an existing abnormality, you cannot will it away. You can help to adjust your brain's perception of it, but unless I have surgery to relieve the pressure on my spinal cord from protruding disc material (no thank you), that pain will persist. Retraining the brain and it's perception of pain is real science (that I fully believe in btw), but there are conditions and abnormalities that create real pain that does not cease because you have "brushed it off".

[@leora2455]

@@amyhendricks3627 and yet so many have done it and do it everyday. Ive met so many people with bulging disks, degenerative disk diseases and even a few autoimune illnesses in which people got completely better after doing mindbody work (the work from that famous book: Mindbody Prescription), I had a friend with 12 diverse illnesses, some with an apparent visible cause who got better

[@leora2455]

@@amyhendricks3627 If you take middle aged people with NO BACK PAIN and give them MRI's, 60%-90% of them will have bulging discs, degenerative discs, arthritic chages, spinal stenosis and other common changes. If you gave 100 people WITH pain and 100 people WITHOUT pain MRI's, doctors would not be able to tell the difference when looking at the two stacks of MRI's. Doctors would not be able to tell which group was in pain and which group wasn't. Sarno called this exam findings "normal abnormalities". They are most likely not the source of your pain, but often innocent bystanders being blamed for your pain. Structurally caused chronic pain is quite rare.

[@thinkin_mkdeabh]

Hi, could you open communautary contributions ? I'd like to add french translation of this amazing story :)

[@seyedhssanjafarian4393]

Bless him 🌹

[@sipanshahnazari1509]

Nitpicking here, but is it not dangerous to state that pain is an illusion? To clarify, I would say the shadow trick in this video is an illusion, however sight is not an illusion. Therefore I could agree that specific cases such as phantom limb pain and chronic pain could be described pain illusions but pain generally is not. My concern is jumping the gun and telling patients their pain is an illusion is not helpful.

[@realphysiotherapy606]

you concern is not unreasonable, that's the whole revolution he is advocating about at moment. The whole society needs to shift the beliefs. Illusion doesn't mean its unreal, your sight in vision is like nociception in pain.

[@AthyDuGard]

I was also concerned when I heard the language he used. It seemed very dismissive.

[@flej01]

I have half a kidney left, with two new tumous after having 5 tumouts removed. I actually don't think my pain is in my head and I would like to see what your pain video would look like after having the same thing. It is so frustrating when "experts" have all tbe answers for what they are not experiencing and just because they have read a book

[@ClaudetteMiss]

I'd like to stomp on his foot and have him look me in the eye while saying pain is illusionary. He sets off quack vibes for me. Best of luck with your health care

[@flej01]

@@ClaudetteMiss thank you

[@faithebert9002]

I’m seeing wayyyy too many “this video changed my life for the better comments” I’m so glad I found someone with the same train of thought as me. I went into this video being very open minded and I completely disagree with a majority of what this speaker is saying. I believe if you are going to put something on the internet that’s “informative” also be ready to be challenged. I agree with you @FLEJ, just because he’s read a book and is featured on Ted talk doesn’t mean anything.

[@eltriskelpilates]

​@@ClaudetteMissyou misinterpret his words. He never said that pain is illusionary. He says is very real. And he talks about chronic pain, which lasts long after the tissue damage happened.

[@user-hb5qs7sy2v]

@@eltriskelpilates But what he does not seem to understand is that chronic pain is the presence of trauma which the body harbours after tissue healing or abuse or harm. I found a guy who explains something very similar to this video. But he explains how our thoughts reaction to pain changes and exaggerates our experience of the actual pain, making it overwhelming, and he teaches a body based meditation to go beneath our reaction to our pain into the physical sensations of pain to discover what its really like and to heal it there. And i found it works. He says pain is exaggerated due to whatever event or experience of harm we then associate the initial pain or trauma with. I learned about this and had amazing success with this from this guy Matthew Zoltan u tube chanell. You might find his work with pain enlightening.

[@plymhypnos221]

I often refer to this video when explaining chronic pain to clients. I then use hypnotherapy to take them out of pain, if it is appropriate to do so. There are numerous ways to affect the brain's production of pain that work well once the concept is understood. I find Freddy Jacquin's Arrow Technique to be so effective that I use it in public demonstrations. It has worked every time so far.

[@crispycruiser4654]

Quackery.

[@chrishoare4408]

​@@crispycruiser4654 In what sense?

[@crispycruiser4654]

@@chrishoare4408 This theory that the video maker talks about and all the doctors and PT's who are buying into it and implementing it in their practice, and putting forth a wildly incomplete picture of chronic pain. It totally ignores the many conditions that are degenerative in nature, like arthritis, osteoporosis, tendinosis where there are permanent, structural changes to the tissue. Tendons fraying, joints narrowing, cartilage disintegrating. This hurts and it hurts long term. It's not the brain "tricking" the body after the injury has "healed." The injury is still there. And then someone goes and gets surgery and feels better because the TISSUE has been REPLACED. To believe this crackpot theory one has to then by extension believe the benefits of all these surgeries are placebo, which is idiotic.

[@byrd1dog]

Have you ever suffered from chronic pain? I very much doubt you have. It's not something in your head that you can magically take away. I've been to way too many doctors who say deep breathing is the answer. Or I can transfer to somewhere else on my body. Here's a good one " Go to your happy place, empty your mind, and let the pain roll off of your body like water off a ducks back." What I would like is a so-called spend even 5 minutes in my body, then you can tell me what works and what doesn't work. These people in the crowd can laugh, and the speaker can laugh all he wants. These are real people you are talking about

[@robinbmunson]

Wonderful explanation - and very informative (as well as entertaining!) As a yoga teacher, I can really use this information to connect the dots. Thank you so much!

[@CircusNormal]

Yeah ok then so this is all really good in terms of explaining why we feel pain and why/how it is produced but how do you combat the pain, just tell yourself "oh this is all in my head, go away pain, you're not real'? I'm a longterm sufferer of midcarpal instability, CRPS, thoracic outlet syndrome so subsequently suffer from incredible pain on a daily basis. Surgery hasn't worked and I have had over 7 operations and medication doesn't work either so just do something to stop the fucking pain!!

[@Dr_Footbrake]

Brody Cross he (more or less) says at the end that they're still trying to find the best way of dealing with chronic pain but otherwise he is 100%. You CANNOT feel pain without a healthy and functioning nervous system. I could take an axe to a quadriplegic's thigh and he wouldn't feel a thing. I'm still damaging tissue so if Lorimer's words were incorrect this person should still feel pain (but they don't obviously)

[@johansdkjohanson4120]

Go and see a qualified physiotherapist! They should be able to change your pain with hands on techniques for some short term relief but overall they will be able to prescribe exercise, active management strategies you can do at home to get rid of your problem. There is definitely help with graded exposure to exercises specific to improving your problem! :)

[@nstratford9073]

@@johansdkjohanson4120 I don't think you understand the level of pain that is being talked about here. Go see a physio is totally missing how severe and complex chronic pain of this nature is

[@nstratford9073]

@@astreetpt1212 agreed physio can be great when you find the right one for you they can be really excellent but to just say "go see a physio" in a flippant manner like that is clearly missing the whole chronic pain being a complex problem idea

[@floriangirard2052]

13:45 Usually, pain is thought to protect you from stgh which is sensed to hurt you. But, it seems sometimes that Pain is trying to help you with stgh that doesn't need protection. Then How do we cope with pain-signal-not-related-with-protection ? What are the therapy to treat that ? Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy ? Haptotherapy ? Psycho-emotional Therapy ? Sthg about "I am confident with my body and environment" ? Mindfulness, exercise, etc. ?

[@Andreas748]

I so need to do that....but embarrassed to admit I am so scared of re hurting my back I'm not making much progress. This is the hardest thing I've ever had to deal with

[@realphysiotherapy606]

are your still struggling, check up work from Peter O'Sullivan

[@sandramedina9482]

Excellent presenter

[@fredge4023]

Can confirm the part about prosthetics. You can feel it a lot more than you'd expect lol

[@bradpryer]

Thank you very much!!!!!!

[@cpodgorelec]

Bravo Professor Lorimer .

[@chrisjohnsonpt]

Simply brilliant!

[@lindabrownie9149]

so whats the solution to this??? great info but where to now

[@nikkilarsen506]

Agreed! I second that motion!

[@xy2565]

You educate the patient on pain. They have found that pain education decreases pain in patients

[@fragmented_me]

X Y unless you have ME/CFS

[@alectambornini2257]

Pain education COUPLED with increasing exercise. Slowly and surely pain will decrease.

[@Override.Health]

@@alectambornini2257 Helping people make new habits is difficult, but life-changing.

[@felimekj]

Very very interesting!! Thank you for sharing this information!

[@zephyrmagus1436]

Get the book "Explain pain", by Moseley and Butler, it gives you tips as above and explains the physiology of pain; it's interesting and also empowering. You own your pain and you have the power to get rid of it. As the authors point out: "knowledge and movement are the stress and pain liberators". I remind myself of that every time I experience pain.

[@bobjohn47]

The central principle has not changed - pain is a signal that something is wrong and those who medicate the pain first without investigation lose out on the opportunity to understand it.

[@katwillacather1403]

+Robert W who in the world "medicates the pain first"? No doc in the world just passes out pain pills to someone without trying to figure out the problem. Do you have any idea how hard it is to get pain medication? I'm both an RN and a pain patient. Your smug response shows your lack of thought about the process.

[@realphysiotherapy606]

NOOO.... the pain is the output of your perceived threat (sth went wrong). Pain is body alarm system, it can sense damage e.g during acute injury, but it can also go wrong becoming oversensitive (happened in chronic pain), if so, even the steam in the room can set off your alarm system, if you just look for fire, it won't help.

[@stuartlawsonbeattie1411]

@@katwillacather1403 wow Kat, I love the Royal Navy, do you realise how smug and crass you sound you smart know it all, are you still a nurse?

[@emilykesler9142]

Some docs do just pass out pain pills, I’ve known plenty of people to be given an abundance of pain pills without much education, post op. So they continue to take these pain pills rather than learning to space them out as they body starts to heal. Then that’s when the challenge begins

[@emilykesler9142]

Also kat, as an rn this would have been a great teaching moment. Rather than a moment to attack someone for their lack on knowledge. We are not granted knowledge to use it as a power tool.

[@maxwilson7001]

So how do we fix chronic pain? Let’s say the reason for the pain has been fixed but the pain remains. What then?

[@inneybaby2506]

You are not supposed to "ignore" pain. Your body tells you there is pain so you take note of it & treat it. Even if it just resting. Telling people to " ignore" the pain is a way of just shaming people that have real pain.

[@Andreas748]

thanks Lionhardt15.....what you said about slowly increasing exposure to a painful movement is what I've been trying to do

[@Kyrani99]

I don't fully agree with everything he says but it is a pleasure to watch him for his true blue Oker style.

[@stuartlawsonbeattie1411]

What?

[@Pentapus1024]

All of these "think your pain away" gurus seem to me just opportunists. There will always be people in pain, many of them desperate for relief, desperate for a cure. I agree that for certain types of pain, your mind can ease it to varying degrees, but something like a toothache will continue to hurt no matter what you think. And chronic pain with no APPARENT cause can only be coped with, at best, because there's something either undetectably wrong with the tissues or something wrong with the body's overall mechanism.

[@Dr_Footbrake]

Nunnuv Yorbizniz I’ve been to a couple of Moseley’s talks and spoken to him in person - not once has he ever suggested or insinuated that you can “think pain away”

[@gizanglyer5299]

@@Dr_Footbrake what does he suggest? I’m new to this

[@Dr_Footbrake]

@@gizanglyer5299 there's another video which has a lot of similar content where he goes into some treatment options including Q&A with some chronic pain sufferers. Vid is called Pain, the brain and your amazing protectometer on a channel called musculoskeletal Australia

[@giselenormandeau945]

Interesting talk...But no solutions offered as to how to change the perception of pain in your brain? This is just Not just a One Time Vdeo. Sounds like you have to see Many of his Videos, Read a Variety of Several Books And Follow Ted...

[@obparrot6390]

Why, if all pain comes from the brain, can we not learn hypnosis techniques or meditations that alter our brains and prevent them creating pain?

[@jamieeason1132]

Yes.

[@Ivananiki]

Genuinely curious. Snakes aren't poisonous right? They are venomous? Think I saw some info about that somewhere. I mean you can eat snakes right

[@matthunt2221]

Really interesting. More please!

[@MdSTherapeuticcoaching]

Brilliant! Thank you

[@matteojones]

Good talk, fascinating stuff - but we needed the "what do we do about it" part. This talk is *almost* useless without explanation of relevance.

[@Dr_Footbrake]

The short answer is there's simply no "catch all" treatment. He talks about this more in his longer lectures. There's one on the Musculoskeletal Australia channel called Pain, the brain and your amazing protectometer.

[@andrewcourtney4620]

great vid man, very engaging host

[@nicolawilliams1779]

You did what? I'm not understanding. what did you receptor say? are receptors big or small?

[@alteredselfwellnesscoachma4476]

Fascinating

[@Johnny6586]

I shot myself in the foot recently and funny enough, I didn't feel the pain because I didn't think I actually hit myself at first. Only when I saw the wound and blood and realized I got hit, that's when I started feeling the pain.

[@bill7853]

Fantastic educator... Maybe I'm missing something but surely he made a mistake regarding the squares .." no matter how long you look at it "A" will look darker than "B" ....? It's the other way round no ?

[@montannapoulsen4653]

new game: take a shot every time he says "groovy"

[@g_dub]

My homie is a physical therapist. We discuss pain all the time. He sent me this video. I agree with what is being said. It has been called T.M.S the nind/body syndrome. Pain is all made in the mind

[@jenniferbowler7730]

One thing about this is it's a TED conference speech. These have to be the most innovative and "out there" ideas possible. And while he is absolutely correct about acute pain, that process doesn't apply to chronic pain. He's speaking as if there is only one type of pain and that is untrue. There's helpful pain, which is acute pain (the pain he is talking about), and it is the kind that tells you that something is wrong somewhere and it needs to be fixed. This can absolutely be blown out of proportion of the brain associates it with a dangerous prior experience. However, the second kind of pain is chronic pain. It serves no purpose and is not occurring to alert us to a problem. It is from DAMAGE. Damage that, typically, is not fixable. There is also centralized pain, which is pain that has actually entered the central nervous system. When you are in pain 24/7 and it NEVER goes away, accompanied by significant fatigue, chances are your pain has centralized. This causes significant hormone imbalances which exacerbate the situation. People like me with connective tissue disorders like my Ehlers Danlos suffer from extreme pain that is very real. Our pain has been described by one of the U.S.'s top pain specialists as worse than cancer pain. We EDSers typically suffer from all 3 of the hove described types of pain. I say that because each time we have a new subluxation or dislocation, we experience acute pain again. However, we pretty much all defy all of the logic set forth in this video, as our pain tolerances tend to be much higher. So, whereas a normal person may sublux or dislocate a joint and feel so much pain that they feel like they are going to die. We often just suck in a quick deep breath, do what we can to reduce it and just breathe through it. There is no doctor on the face of this planet that can honestly state that a joint subluxation or dislocation is not truly painful, but an illusion of pain.

[@redjcmarie2]

+Jennifer Bowler, I think you may have this backwards. Acute pain is usually from tissue damage (scraping your knee, twisting your ankle). Chronic pain is usually NOT from damage. The point is that tissues that are torn, damaged, or inflamed typically heal all they will within 4-6 months. Pain that persists after tissue healing is chronic pain, and most chronic pain involves some sensitization. Patients with EDS have vastly individualized experiences and outcomes. A subluxation in a joint is an acute event, and isn't always horribly painful, but certainly can be. Many EDS patients have some joints that are so lax that they hardly feel them going out. Every patient is different.

[@honeyday1914]

+Jennifer Bowler I hear you. I have suffered from chronic pain for 20 years ... I've heard Dr Moseley speak at a Pain Symposium in Brisbane. It gives credence to the fact that pain is in the brain but not many answers for those of us stuck with it 24/7.

[@claircoult]

+redjcmarie2 One of the types of chronic pain that EDS patients suffer is chronic acute pain. It is very misunderstood. If you sprain your ankle it hurts. A sprain may heal in 4-6 months but what if you have lax ankle ligaments and sprain your ankle every single day? The pain may last more than 6 months, which by definition is chronic pain, but it is caused by an acute injury that keeps happening due to having EDS. RNOH Stanmore EDS rehab course used the story from this video and some of my group were quite offended by it. We understand the concept but it bears no relation to our experience of pain. EDS patients are often very good at dealing with pain. We don't overreact to the pain, we know our pain isn't going to kill us but it makes no difference when the nerves keep sending those signals to tell our brain that our body is damaged. Tuning those signals out doesn't make the feeling of pain stop and it would be dangerous if it did. The feeling of pain is important because it tells us that there is an injury and we should be mindful of that to protect our joints and allow for healing. We might not feel pain from a subluxation (perhaps our brain knows it's just a scratch? LOL!) but it does damage the surrounding connective tissues. If that pain lasts longer than six months and becomes chronic we need to evaluate what is going on and not just assume that is it 'chronic' pain which has no physical cause, because that IS dangerous to people with EDS and leads to more problems in the long term.

[@PolarManki]

As a physiotherapy student who works with pain patients I would say Ehlers-Danlors syndrome differs from most pain problems out there in terms of relations to acute and chronic pain. I'm pretty sure he is not saying "there is just one type of pain". If you listen and see what he contributes, you will notice he's actual focus is on chronic pain (and sentral sensitization). One of the main debate's is how I get it about how big the possible role of central sensitization is. I don't think he is denying /would deny your possible pain. Generally the emphasis from he's contributions should be in my opinion put instead this way: if this theory has reality to it, what (previously unthought) ways could we use to treat and rehabilitate in each chronic pain case. In my country, most of the hospital doctors are not yet conscious about these things because they are pretty "new" ideas, coming in a foreign language. While I haven't yet dived in Ehlers-Danlors and been with a patient of this sort, I would say that also ED-patients would be better off if the doctors (or other professionals involved) would be upgrading their knowledge in this context.

[@Quetinn]

And no one would ever claim EDS to be a mere illusion of pain. You definitely experience this pain and it is very real. So are the soft tissue changes. I'm very sorry you feel misunderstood in the above message. But, your whole argumentation quite clearly illustrates that you do not fully grasp the content of this video and it's underlying meaning. Your interpretation of pain physiology and it's relation to your situation is incomplete and as such I understand the trouble you're having with Moseley's message. I would encourage you to read more about the changes that occur in the central nervous system in persons with 'chronic pain', as you put it. Then you would see that the one does not negate the other, and 'pain' (both acute and chronic) is always a brain construct. This scientific fact does not mean chronic pain cannot have a peripheral cause (damage). It only means (in your case) both body tissue and CNS changes occur simultaneously. If not in the beginning of the disease process, than most certainly at this point in time.

[@Porgieandpander]

Excellent. Where do I find part 2?

[@corinapittella8656]

Very interesting and enlightening!

[@carcasor]

Lorimer, we love you.

[@thecomedynight8809]

Really interesting. Pain is an illusion masquerading as reality. Perhaps, its both ! One

[@DavidSmith-ok2pv]

This exactly happened for me after I ruptured a disc in my back. Screaming pain now for everything after that injury. But what do I do now?? How can I reverse this?

[@loriewert5267]

If you want to really learn about this stuff read the book or books by Dr John Sarno, he was the founder of this theory back in the 70’s.