TF2: Pyro's Most UNFAIR Melee

[@Jontohil2]

Pyro mains saying I’m just being whiny when I show them the Darwin’s Danger shield:

[@syrap6330]

Personally I think the one hit removal is justified because the pyro cant tell if something is sapped without actually seeing it or an Engy telling them

[@ForWeAreMany]

nah, you's right, homewrecker does tilt the scales a lot in favor of the engie and pyro when it comes to dealing with engie nests. although, I must say: As a Pyro who LOVES pairing with Spies, whenever I see a sapped enemy building,I just immediately switch to my Homewrecker and go to town on disabled sentries, fllowing up with the dispenser. I've had a match or two where I was able to slip past enemy lines to help a friendly spy do just this the other night and we made their engies RQ one after another. stock flamethrower, the jump pack and homewrecker along with a C&D spy make for great ambush strats on spawning engies. the mobility, the utility, crowd control and panic from being set on fire just ruins players' time in general. during that same match, I managed to airblast a scout into the spy's knife and the scout went on a spree in chat, unleashing every slur, curses and swears and every insult he knew. Why yes it was a lime scout. yes he did have a comp medal dating 2019.

[@SergeantStainlessSteel]

Careful- they might just shoot back with “Razor Back”

[@lavetissene339]

I have not met a single furry that complains about the darwins

[@lavetissene339]

@@SergeantStainlessSteel Razor Back

[@H4nd1ess]

this is what we call a "fuck this class in particular" weapon

[@diegozuniga4201]

Same league as the razor back

[@szonig_pl3024]

Same league as Darwin's Danger Shield

[@Monk_from_RainWorld]

Sniper has a lot of those, so... Why sp- oh wait the spy-cycle

[@SafetyAlwaysLast]

@@Monk_from_RainWorld tbf the spy-cicle has a pretty big downside if the enemy knows what they are doing, def not in the Darwin's level of stupid, the razor back at least has a counter (spy has a gun).

[@benjaminu5417]

@@Monk_from_RainWorld at least with the spy-cicle the spy gets punished ie no backstabs

[@chrystales6169]

One thing to emphasize is that the Homewrecker isn't overpowered. It's just linear, boring and unfun to play against. It's exactly like how Darwin's Danger Shield isn't OP, but just annoying for Pyros. They're a direct counter to your class while having no interesting counter play. They're a "lol you suck now" option.

[@Jontohil2]

Pretty much this.

[@zane1262]

Another example is the spycicle

[@apurpledragon]

If any Sniper equips the Darwin's Danger Shield they're automatically the first ones on my shitlist.

[@NetriliZer]

Equip the shotgun.

[@BabaBoi-c5q]

The 3rd class has a melee

[@Darksteelmangle]

I recently just named my Revolver SPY HAS A GUN. The description:The ninth class has a primary firearm

[@Arshon-wz5lq]

👏 you are now in the gun spy community👏

[@Thebiggerbluebird]

same

[@TheWeirdkid_64]

Pretty soon after I discovered how to actually play spy I got a strange revolver and also named it that lol.

[@Darksteelmangle]

@@Arshon-wz5lq yes

[@Darksteelmangle]

@@TheWeirdkid_64 mine is strange

[@snazzyktv5980]

I love the sledgehammer not for the damage bonuses and sapper removal, but because it's funny to bonk people with a big hammer

[@uncheckable_vibe6891]

literally the the entire reason why I use the necro smasher

[@John-fs1nr]

Yes.

[@ilshail153]

I love how wacky all of pyro's melees are. You've got axes, rakes, axes FROM THE FUTURE!!!, Molten rocks, a car battery on a stick, a rock axe, a *mailbox* , a sledgehammer, an eletric sign, and their own five-digit salute

[@joeyhansen6383]

I do not joke. As soon as you said “just like this videos spon-“ I immediately started clicking forward by 10 seconds and was VERY confused.

[@Jontohil2]

Gotem

[@chrystales6169]

Pavlov's dog moment

[@ooTruffle]

sponserblock my belovid

[@Whoopingcoughalig]

@@ooTruffle if he's your beloved WHY AREN'T YOU ADDING THAT TIME INTO FILTER??? FAKE SPONSOR JOKES CAN BE ADDED!1!! :p

[@johnnyjoestar4473]

As a pybro, I am very sorry for the suffering I have caused you spies. I'm still gonna keep doing it though

[@ReikuYin]

As a Spy player... Good. Don't let anyone tell you how to play a class. It makes for a fun match up.. if frustrating. XD.

[@johnnyjoestar4473]

@@ReikuYin I adore playing Pybro honestly, easily my favourite way to play TF2 just ahead of Medic. The number of clutch moments and get-down-mister-president saves is completely addicting.

[@Comically_Large_Watermelon]

yeah same. i love my hammer

[@bruschetta7711]

No worries, just like i keep using the Diamondback and all other annoying weapons that Valve somehow hasn't yet decised to fix

[@Jasiuc330]

​@@bruschetta7711thing is they probably never gonna fix them again. So the only thing left is accept things the way they are

[@glados2788]

1:51 This is actually a really good point. I hate when serious players try to make casuals feel bad because they play a "low skill class/playstyle/loadout". Just have fun?? Its a video game, thats what its for???

[@trainershade1937]

It's funny too, because the most played class that everyone loves is not that high skill to begin with, outside of a movement mechanic that you don't even need to master to be good at the class. I'd say the general opinion of Pyro is the longest running bandwagon the game has seen (with the next longest being the hatred of Minis).

[@quantwomwhale5984]

FishStickOnAStick:

[@JNJNRobin1337]

why fun when you can meta

[@EthanAshcraft-Newton]

I like the amputator, it lets me roleplay as a dispenser (Yes, Demomen have E + X5 into schadenfreude me)

[@tttttttttttttttp12]

​@@trainershade1937 As a pyro main, thank you so much. I'm tired of being called slurs and a "no skill wm1 noob" every time I try to enjoy one of the weakest classes in the game. Even funnier considering I play combo pyro, and they STILL try and gaslight me into thinking that flare combos and reflect jumping are "skilless." Give me a break.

[@ShadyPKay]

As someone that loves the homewrecker and Pyrbro y'know what? I like that change, 2 hits is fine AND also some knockback resist to be able to be a menace to other buildings? Yeah I'll take it, thank you !

[@gabrielhuschenbeck5637]

Yeah, I always thought that the idea of an anti building weapon for Pyro was great. But as things are now, it is usually easier to destroy a building with M1 than with the homewrecker. Especially when pushing a nearby sentry, I have no confidence that (with the knockback) I will be able to get into melee range at all; not to speak of getting in a second hit before being torn up...

[@Dutchsnake5]

@@gabrielhuschenbeck5637Yeah honestly the only viable sentry busting tool the Pyro has is the Dragon’s Fury thanks to the fact that it has more range and DPS, as well as penetration that can also attack the engineer behind it. It’s genuinely one of the reasons I main that weapon as Pyro.

[@joshuabeatty7371]

The homewrecker isn't the only pybro weapon, but pyrosharks aren't thinking to do this.

[@Kyee124]

"But when would you be, pyrosharking and have an engi building nearby for you to destroy the sapper" - TheWhatShow

[@hagridussr]

​@@Kyee124those 2fort engies who build in the water:

[@aperdanlol]

​​​@@hagridussr those 2fort try hard 25000 hours soldiers spamming rockets in water:

[@walter1383]

@@hagridussr AKA Sea Turtles.

[@A_OBC]

Neon annihilator + gas passer as a pybro, can probably remove big threats if needed!

[@Casterborous]

holy fuck that stab at 2:04 is so good professional body disposal, no evidence

[@Jontohil2]

Never to be found

[@theoofshow69420]

I loved that time when heavy said "It's sapping time!" and proceeded to keep sapping the sentry and then do the spy cra- wait... Isn't that just a spy?

[@FuromeNavi]

Pootis

[@alliu6562]

Proposed change that is more complicated but also kinda interesting: What if it just *disables* the sapper in one hit? Not completely destroying it. The sapper still remains on the building, so the building stays non-functional, and the engineer is required to hit it once (or twice, with the jag) to fully remove it, but the building will stop losing HP. This wouldn’t completely undo a spy’s hard work of taking down the nest, but it would still make the homewrecker a reasonable melee for pybros to take.

[@Jontohil2]

Actually cool idea

[@necroseus]

Aw crap, I just commented a similar idea independently but you beat me to it! Mine was: - +80% damage against buildings - Disables buildings for 1 second on hit - -30% damage against players This also works against sentries, which makes it a way more viable demolition weapon, too The +80% is because +100% means double the damage an engineer's wrench does, so this keeps it as a two hit on the sapper without making it useless against other buildings or having hidden stats.

[@Arshon-wz5lq]

As a spy main, I have to agree that this is quite annoying to deal with.

[@realdragon]

As pyro main I agree this is awful weapon

[@matthewmiller8297]

As a pyro/engie main, I think spy's are quite annoying to deal with.

[@aperdanlol]

As a scout main, I think that pyro/engie are hard to deal with

[@Samsung-1.9Cu.Ft.Microwave]

Spy mains when a class that already hard-counters them can also hard-counter them:

[@A_OBC]

​@@realdragon Eh, more like a bit too good.

[@SafetyAlwaysLast]

Maybe instead of making the homewrecker destroy sappers in 2 hits (because the source spaghetti doesn't allow you to do that currently and nobody wants to deal with changing the spaghetti) We could make the homewrecker have a slower firing speed so it takes longer than the engineer to destroy it, give it an animation like other sledgehammers in other games where the pyro hoists it up before slamming it, I think that would be nice and deal with the sapper problem, also buff its damage to buildings so it can actually deal with sentries, lets say a pyro goes around the corner after killing the engineer, air blasts the sentries rockets into it with the degreaser, and then hits the sentry with the homewrecker destroying it, cool right.

[@fourswords77]

It can two shot any building, and 1 shot mini sentries. If you can get in range, it *demolishes* buildings. It can even kill a teleporter than an engi is repairing on the other side. 130 damage per swing is no joke

[@largeladygaming]

Unfortunately decreasing firing speed doesn't slow down the initial attack, it only adds downtime between repeated attacks because source engine or something

[@pizrub]

As a pyro main: I think that it should take 2 swings to remove sappers

[@realdragon]

As pyro main I think the purpose should be changed, make it more of a sentry removal tool. Imagine when as pyro you actually have some chance against lvl 1 sentry

[@notimportant1659]

To be fair, the engie can re-heal the sentry after destroying a sapper, if a pyro removes it the sentry stays at the heath it was at until an engie comes or it's destroyed

[@Pasakoye]

That pyro's a spy!

[@tttttttttttttttp12]

​@@realdragon well, to do that you actually have to get close to the sentry in the first place, which is the entire reason why sentries hard counter pyro; he can't even get into good range to attack them. Unless you're thinking of giving homewrecker pyros damage/knockback resistance from sentries, the homewrecker isn't going to do anything to help pyro against them.

[@flaming_water8603]

@@realdragonuse the dragons fury, it can two shot lvl 1s and if the engi is turtling you can hit the too

[@Mega_idk]

I'd say the Homewrecker's balance is just as polarizing as something like the Danger Shield. Screws over one class extra hard and nothing else. I say this as someone who plays a defensive Pyro who rarely gets use out of it (either I kill the Spy before then or the Sentry gets overwhelmed immediately).

[@Jontohil2]

Oh yeah the Darwin’s is equally as bad

[@wiliamandy]

​@@Jontohil2Ur changes are reasonable Tho friendly pyro and the spy If they work together Will wreck level 3 sentry pretty fast And ruin the engi in the process

[@Pudding404]

Pybros singlehandedly doing damage control on the reputation of pyro players.

[@blubullie4850]

I would rather we get a -25% swing speed, since the Homewrecker/Maul is a sledge hammer, which is heavy. It could also remove the damage penalty to players. Problem: Valve isn't interested in coding anything for TF2 anymore unless it is for profit. Both of the proposed changes would require a small amount of tweaks to the code, which means we will not see any changes happen unless it is with a new major update.

[@TrixterTheFemboy]

It wouldn't change the issue it all though, it'd still take the same amount of time to remove a sapper, you'd just end up with it being worse at destroying buildings

[@MythGeraldinde]

it is true that the homewrecker is kinda unfair but it is EXTREMELY common to see a pyro not use the homewrecker because of how it has more melees to use that are more useful. Still unfair weapon tho

[@typicalgentleman]

What if instead of your changes, the homewrecker dealt bleed damage for eight seconds on sappers?

[@rayzuke1232]

A weapon to rival the L'executor

[@ps-frag]

Also decrease it's damage by 80%

[@sniperbodyshot]

You forget about user instantly die after one hit

[@DJSilly9]

7:40 FUUUCK I DIDNT PUT ENOUGH MOSAIC ON THE ART SO IT JUST LOOKS LIKE NORMAL FANART AND NOT THE LIMITLESS FUNNY IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE NOOOOOO

[@Jontohil2]

That’s kind of my fault tbh, I should have intentionally shittified it further

[@DJSilly9]

@@Jontohil2 nah thats on me i shoulda gone more nutty wit it

[@apollo5099]

While I agree that the TTR (Time To Remove) on the sapper on the Pyro's end is indeed quite fast and somewhat similar to a Danger Shield feel against spy, and I could reasonably see there being a swing speed penalty, I'm not sure if bumping it up to more hits to remove is as great as advertised. First of all: While this point doesn't mean much from a gameplay enjoyability stance, I feel it should be said. The Homewrecker's main identity is its quick sapper removal, because unless you come across stray teleporters or buildings in general (with a medic for sentries), the whole more damage to buildings thing doesn't really come into play. Especially since you're pyro, a class who generally doesn't want to be completely alone, in enemy territory, save for ambushes. But then why would you equip the homewrecker over the other options, which leads to my second point. Second point being: The Pyro's melee arsenal is actually quite vast, in terms of variability for the playstyle. If you choose to equip the Homewrecker, you lose out on enhanced mobility from the Powerjack, or the combo potential of the Axestinguisher, or even in the unlikely scenario of you running gas passer or being on a map with water, the ambush capability of The Neon Annihilator. I could even possibly make a case that the Third Degree is a viable weapon, especially if you are ambushing a medic/getting ubered to go take out their medic. Pyro giving up this wealth of options for better sapper removal, which relies on there being a Spy on the other team, an Engineer on yours, and if that engineer is capable of holding their own against the spy or not. While I agree that it leans slightly more towards a Danger Shield approach of crippling a class, I don't think it's AS bad as it's played out to be in the video (Which was very good btw.) Third possible point: While this one is kind of just me spitballing, if we were to compare both the Homewrecker and the Neon Annihilator in terms of how versatile they are, I'd reckon the Neon Annihilator would be a better option than the Homewrecker if you wanted something more well-rounded. As previously mentioned, the Homewrecker's extra damage to buildings doesn't really offer much in terms of actual gameplay, and so its main identity revolves around sapper removal. While the Neon Annihilator removes sappers slower than it, it also comes with a more useful upside of more damage against wet opponents, despite the requirements to achieve making your opponent wet. Although I'm speaking for keeping the 1-hit removal on the Homewrecker, I don't think it's very balanced in its current state and agree the TTR is too fast to the Engineer's. TLDR; I agree that the speed difference is quite egregious, comparatively, but I feel that removing the ability to destroy sappers in 1 hit is maybe not the right way to go about it. I would propose a significant swing speed reduction, but I don't balance or design games so uh, take it with several grains of salt. If anybody has anything they want clarification on, do say! While I am making a case against some of the points in the video, I do not like to argue for the sake of arguing, so I'd like it if any replies could be civil disagreements/counterpoints. Love your vids btw Jonto! I main medic personally, so you're my worst enemy. Thanks for the intel to avoid you over these few years >:)

[@zericle1]

Great points. I've played pybro a long time (nearly 3700 sappers removed on my homewrecker), and here are some things I've noticed by playing it so much. 1. Homewrecker is an extremely situational weapon compared to pyro's other melee weapons. Like you said, there has to be an engie on your team and at least one other spy on the enemy team to get any use out of it. I would also add that homewrecker gets more use depending on what map you're playing on too. Intel and control point maps are where most pybros like to hang out in because it's where you'll find the most engie players. Payload maps not so much. Maps with a ton of chokepoints or few flank routes are also easy for pybro players, but of course very open maps are bad for pyro. 2. If you protect an engie nest, you can't reliably protect the rest of your team. If you protect the rest of your team, you can't reliably protect the engie. You're making a trade-off. So if you think about it, as a spy, if there's a pesky pybro that won't allow you anywhere near the nest, you can just ignore the nest and go for other enemy players. Vice versa if the pybro is constantly moving alongside the medics. Basically just go where the pybro isn't, and the whole homewrecker thing will be a non-issue for you. 3. Demoman exists. If you, as a spy cannot get into a nest and sap it due to a pybro, then go demoman and sticky spam. The pybro can't reliably deal with stickies if you spam them at the nest. Even if they have a scorch shot, it won't be very effective. 4. Pyro doesn't get alerted like engie does to a sapper being placed. It takes at most 8.64 seconds to get to a sapper in time (if building is lvl3, less if the building is lower level. You really don't get much time to remove a sapper. This means that anytime a pybro isn't paying attention to the engie's buildings for more than 8.64 seconds, you're risking that a building can be destroyed by a sapper from a very sneaky spy. This means that you're kind of stuck into sticking to a general area that is about a 4-6 second walking distance from the nest if you want to get use out of the weapon. 5. Homewrecker is just bad against enemy players, doesn't really need to be said. 6. You don't get much use out of the 100% damage to buildings aside from the rare instance of being near a badly-placed mini-sentry. It does 130 damage per hit to buildings, meaning the mini is the only building you can destroy in one hit. The other buildings it's two hits, but can be even more if the enemy engie is repairing the building. Enemy engies normally don't place their stuff in melee reach. Normally just using your flamethrower is better anyway to destroy a building because the flames go through the building and kill the engie repairing it. 7. You can't repair with the homewrecker. If the engie isn't there or dead, you have to hope and pray that the building doesn't get deleted by the time he comes back. TDLR, the weapon's drawbacks are: 1. It's very situational to the players on your team and enemy team as well as the map. 2. Requires the spy to choose to make contact with the engie's buildings in the first place 3. Doesn't help in any way against demoman sticky spam, the true threat to an engie and pybro 4. No alert sound for sappers, meaning you have to pay attention and stay close to an engie nest to even get use from the weapon. 5. Very low damage against players. (49 dmg per hit) 6. Building damage doesn't matter very much. 7. Can't repair with the homewrecker. I disagree with the video because you should view this from the homewrecker pybro's perspective. It's annoying to a pybro when your team has no engies. It's annoying to a pybro when the enemy team has no spies. It's annoying when the spy is avoiding you all the time. It's annoying when you play through an entire match and you don't get a single sapper removed. Yet you don't hear pybros complaining very much about this. And the reason why is because there are soooo many more actual spy mains than actual pybro mains out there so the pybro player's voices get drowned out.

[@MrMachine540]

I bonk people with my hammer Thy butterknife and gun cannot outstand me hammer!

[@matthewmiller8297]

You said "The Pyro should NOT be able to destroy sappers faster than the engineer can." I disagree. Many engies spend much of the game literally sitting ON their buildings. Even that close, two hits/building takes long enough that it's still common to loose a building when they're all sapped, especially if at least one sapper gets re-applied. Unless you expect pybros to spend the entire game literally SITTING on the nest, those several seconds reaching the buildings means you'll probably only be able to save one or two of the three buildings, and (if the engie is backstabbed) they're all at 1/4 health anyway, so all your team has to do is sneeze on them to finish them off. I counter propose the following change: Homewrecker removes sappers in two hits, BUT can use flamethrower ammo to heal buildings to 75% of their full health. See the issue now? Removing a sapper in one hit doesn't mean much if the engie is dead and the building is low health. And if the engie isn't dead, there's no way a spy should be able to, with any confidence, expect to 1v2 (1v3 if you count the sentry) a nest and expect to win.

[@necroseus]

I had a similar concern, yeah. However there is an issue when someone is playing a dedicated pyro and ALSO sitting on the buildings, as it is an annoying and low effort counter to a lot of effort on behalf of the spy. This is the solution I came up with that solves both problems, let me know what you think: - +80% damage to buildings (requires 2 hits for sappers, but still eats other buildings for lunch) - Disables buildings for 1 second on hit (the sapper stops dealing damage when hit, but still needs to be removed) - -30% damage against players This way, pyros that don't get buzzed on dispenser fumes all game can still save a building in the nick of time and dedicated pybros can't be more efficient than an engineer at his own job.

[@vidmaurer8443]

A cool rework whould also be that pyro can use his own ammo reserve like metal and repair buildings. It whould cost 100 percent more than engi and repair at a 50 percent rate, so 4 ammo whould essentially repair the same amount of damage as 1 metal from engi at half the rate

[@Manny4Life948]

I made my own similar concept to that, but its works better as a secondary than a melee he can just pop out without any repercussions

[@Hi_Phantasy]

I'd like to see Valve remove the "damage removes sappers" function from both the Homewrecker and the Neon Annihilator, then buff them both to make them slightly more reliable in their respective niches. The Homewrecker could get the Sentry Gun knockback resistance while deployed, as you suggested, and the Neon Annihilator could give increased swimming speed and longer breath duration while deployed/equipped. I'd rather have two weapons with unique niches that are strong in those niches, than have them both dilute each other by sharing a stat for no reason. Especially if that stat just makes Spy's job even more grueling, when Pyro's role for protecting his team against Spies is already to simply spycheck.

[@Jony.1285]

When spies become a problem, I like to run this loadout. - Stock Flamethrower - Scorch Shot - The Homewrecker Just going full on Emotional Support Pybro, clearing stickies, poking, and removing sappers from the nests I’m safeguarding.

[@Pseudo_Notfound]

2:20 I like playing pyro because I can be anything and everything all of the time... rather when I want.

[@ElwindMage]

What I actually think is unfair is the fact the cool-as-heck, badass design of the Maul is reserved for such a lame melee weapon of a basically melee range class :(

[@elitely6748]

Glad I found your channel recently been getting back into playing Spy more often! Quite a few "fuck that 9th class specifically" weapons like the razorback or darwin's shield against pyro

[@isaactorresarvayo2228]

Just with the thumbnail I knew this was about to get super personal and intense

[@ProfessorEggnog]

Not a big fan of the rework having it -75% knockback against sentries as its not really worth it considering it'd *only* work if you have a medic, otherwise having knockback resistance would be a detriment as you cannot surf off the damage and in turn get you killed much, MUCH faster. If we were to go with the 2 hits nerf I reckon it'd be a better idea that destroying engineer buildings with any weapon stores a critical hit for the next melee swing as it would pair really well with the dragons fury melting sentries, be a better synergy with friendly medics and even punish engineers that leave their buildings behind. (Also in this case we'd nerf the neon annihilator to 3 hits for a sapper 'cause it wouldnt make much sense both taking the same time to remove a sapper)

[@williammin8340]

The knockback immunity only is applied when holding it out, and since it is a melee weapon, there's no real reason to hold it out when beyond melee range. And if you really want to surf off the knockback to escape the sentry, just switch off your melee.

[@ProfessorEggnog]

@@williammin8340 then just never use the melee in the first place, most of the time you're better off using the flamethrower. also it isnt "immunity" its only a 75% resistance meaning youre still gonna be pushed back a little bit still, and if someone popped you up into the air the resistance is less effective as you take more knockback in the air. The knockback resistance is pretty much useless even including the niche of having an uber considering most meds run with you into a nest making the sentry target two people at the same time, and the DPS of the flamethrower already does good job taking care of the sentry.

[@ThaneTheDrell]

1:38 he said the thing!!!

[@Smthn_Wicked]

I think, logically, a sledgehammer would/should/does break a sapper in 1 hit because its a fucking sledgehammer

[@KnightOfBred]

damn thats crazy using logic in TF2 if we did logic then I'd say "I think it should also break friendly Engi's buildings because you're hitting it with a fucking sledgehammer"

[@notimportant1659]

2:20 Personally, I like to play my own pseudo sub-class I like to call "everyone's Pybro" which is kinda like Pybroing but I stick hover around groups of people and use the Mannmelter to both extinguish team members and abuse the infinite ammo pool and range

[@necroseus]

Good points, and i see what you mean. My counter argument is such: Pyros often aren't as close to sentry nests as engineers are, which means that sappers will usually have way more time to drain the health of the sentry. The one shot ability makes it so that the pyro has time to haul ass over to the sentry and save it. If it takes 2 hits, then this scenario will result in the sentry dying way more often, and so equipping the homewrecker instead of literally all of pyro's better melees would become even _more_ of a waste than it already is. A problem arises when the pyro is playing close to the sentry as a dedicated pybro and abusing the speed of recovery, though. Because it's just so, so much better than an engineer's removal ability. So, here is my fix: - +80% damage to buildings (requires 2 hits for sappers, but still eats other buildings for lunch) - Disables buildings for 1 second on hit (the sapper stops dealing damage when hit, but still needs to be removed) - -30% damage against players This makes it so that pyros can still save a sentry right on the cusp of being destroyed by a sapper, but can't camp a sentry and instantly undo a spy's effort anymore. It also makes it more viable against other buildings, as it disables their function for long enough to repeatedly hit them without getting killed. Uhhhh, yeah, I'm interested to hear what you think of you see this :)!

[@blacklight683]

You know what? If pyro is 4times as efficient as ENGINEER then no wonder he's a successful ceo

[@jackcostello4046]

Alternative idea. Keep the one hit, but the hit actually damages the building, since the precision of a sledgehammer being swung with both hands by a crazy person is far less than that of a wrench in the hand of a professional. That way, if the spy drops a sapper and a shot on the sentry, Pyro runs a decent risk of destroying the sentry themselves, or leaving it extremely vulnerable to follow up damage. Just a thought, since the idea of a sledgehammer doing more damage but resulting in collateral just makes sense to me.

[@edgygrimmpfp2334]

This would work the homewrecker dmg to allied buildings should only work when there's a sapper, then you wouldn't have trolls making the engie's life harder than it is

[@Manny4Life948]

You’re asking for Griefers to destroy every innocent engineer building with his spy buddy on the enemy team

[@TH3_N]

6:58 spy should have a limited amount of sappers (2) that are recharged with ammo packs/time, because its stupid that he can just spam it and it means he has to think more about what he wants to sap instead of going sap happy.

[@Jontohil2]

If the spy is able to get away with sapper spam, that just means the engie(s) aren’t killing him fast enough

[@noahfry6561]

Gosh, the stuff you make is just so GOOD! The quality, the humor, I just love it!

[@thewoodpeckers655]

2:41 I think ptsd from sponsorship segments is an actual thing because I just got it by almost skipping forward 10 seconds.

[@Jontohil2]

[@RewWhoFlew]

2:24 I have never heard the name 'Flyro' before in all my time playing TF2 and will now be unconditionally using it whenever I see a Pyro with the thermal thrusters. It's literally the cutest name ever why the heck haven't I heart it up until now😭

[@mrfoxyzin58]

Honestly Engineer should be the only class that can destroy sappers. If you stab the Engineer and sap the sentry, that should be it, you won against the Engineer and the sentry, and even if you die after which is very likely, you should be rewarded for doing all of that and coming out on top. But then some Pyro out of nowhere comes, hits the sapper one time and all of your work is gone. So fun. The Pyro vs Spy match-up is already difficult enough, a single Pyro can make it pratically impossible to attack a sentry nest. The point is, Pyro doesn't need the Homewrecker at all, he can already counter Spy by just being aware and spy checking. The Homewrecker ruins the very interesting interaction between Engineer and Spy and making it incredibly unbalanced for the Spy and robbing from him what should be a guaranteed win. I'm glad this is a Diamondback kind of case where even tho it's annoying as fuck you rarely ever see anyone using it.

[@Manny4Life948]

If only spy had more sapper options to better combat this type of stuff

[@Neutrax0]

I enjoy playing both sides of the Pyro vs Spy rivalry. I've found using the red tape recorder (Who does this right?) feels like a good current counter to homewrecker happy pyros. To make a small callback to spy being a "versatile class" being able to be a pick/support but also a recon class, I strongly believe the red-tape recorder helps spy being the "nuisance/disruptor class". Compared to the standard downtime of a normal sapper, the downtime for buildings with the red-tape is the build time. When an engineer is taken out of commission, a pyro cannot upgrade or undo the reversed progress that a red-tape has done to any building, which I feel the red-tape excels the best at when interfering with teleporters. Red-taping multiple buildings in a nest requires ALL OF THEM to slowly rebuild themselves after they are de-sapped, which in itself takes time. As an engineer, this requires a bit of triage as the last of the buildings will very likely go down a level or two and will take more time to rebuild to max lvl than they take to simply repair. In the event that the engineer is dead or preoccupied, all buildings will likely go down to level 1 or be unbuilt if undeterred. If a pyro alone were to be guarding the nest the risk of dying or being discovered would indeed be greater if the idea was to destroy the nest, but that's shouldn't be the plan. The main tactic is too waste time, the engineer and the pybro. An engineer constantly having to upgrade as opposed to repair is more paranoid and preoccupied on building their buildings again, time that can be used to backstab their other teammates. A pybro could be stuck at spawn hammering away at a teleporter being unbuilt, but that does not mean you cannot sap-shoot-sap it to kill it on your end. A pybro guarding a nest is also one less player watching an objective where you may or may not be afterwards. Just my two-cents. Correct me if I'm at all wrong or misinformed.

[@jdg1251]

People saying pyro is easy hasn't really played soldier

[@evan9730]

Yeah but soldier can't spam afterburn or infinitely juggle people with a stunlock that has the biggest hitbox in the game.

[@KnightOfBred]

tbf they're both really easy to secure kills with

[@blacklight683]

1 pyro, 1pybro is all it takes for me to know the 9th class has been forsaken by gabeN himself 1pybro can defend a nest from 5 spies

[@sleepy1066]

As an engie main, i remember ive been bombarded on tf2s subreddit for saying that the Homewrecker is busted and should be tweaked because it straight up nullifies what is already the weakest class in the game. Pyros are so quick to whine about Snipers Darwins Danger Shield about it being a "fuck this class especially" weapon (and rightfully so), but i rarely see the same energy reciprocated about the Homewrecker. Imo there hasnt been a single time where i as an engie died to a spy and said to myself "i hate spy", because i KNOW how much spy has to avoid and go through to even get the chance at a stab, and most times i couldve avoided death by doing something different MYSELF like being more aware/checking for spies more. But to pull off a successful stab only for a pyro to insta delete a sapper is just plain stupid, regular spy checking is already really strong. Basically if the pyro has the homewrecker... just go demo or soldier honestly, like ATLEAST make it 3 hit sappers or 2 but with a tiny bit of slower swing speed, 1 hit to remove with no slower equip or swing speed is ridiculous

[@Alxium]

I'd only accept this change if the Danger Shield got nerfed as well (remove afterburn immunity or fire resistance, either one take your pick).

[@Marchm_gaming_1010]

Neon annihilator can take out sapers too? You forgot? For real? How can you forget about this?

[@theghosttm8245]

He states it in the video

[@idavid8391]

This my favorite, go-to melee for 90% of my Pyro gameplay (I main him and Medic too). As such, I am qualified to say it absolutely needs a nerf or rework. Pyro doesn't need 2 weapons to remove sappers, but more importantly should NOT be able to do Engie's job better than him.

[@izurukamukura9095]

Any time I play pyro, Pybro is usually what I play when we have a lot of engis on our team, and even *I* have felt kinda bad about just how easy it is to counter a spy by using the homewrecker. I think the changes brought up here were a good idea (2 hits to destroy is better than 3 in my opinion though).

[@dyingscarlet]

I feel like although the homewrecker is technically better at removing sappers than the wrench, the situations it can be used in are fewer because the Pyro is going to be spending a lot of the time with this thing out just hunting for the spy that placed the sapper, which could take many seconds considering the average skill level of a Pyro (lol)

[@zacharyscovel1017]

This is why I'll either Maul or Neon Annihilator people and sappers.

[@Patric_1514]

Gabe: my favorite class is a spy Meanwhile Gabe: one hit sapper? Yes!

[@lillianalefay5580]

As a pryo main, I wholeheartedly agree with your thoughts on the Homewrecker interaction with Spy. Also the knockback reduction when deployed made me almost spit up my drink, literally, and I think that is an AMAZING idea

[@JustDevon1]

5:38 Has a long time Homewrecker user I really like these changes. It increases the weapons building destroying capabilities, while not invalidating its sapper removal function.

[@Judas-xp2fl]

Ho noooo. As a Pyro main it's hard enough to press w+m1 so if I have to press an extra button 😮‍💨

[@dankali735]

The only reason I see this weapon as balanced is one reason that there are loads of better Pyro melees, I rarely ever see homewrecker. It only works if you both have an Engie on your team and there is a competent (or at least better than the Engie) Spy on the other team. As a person who plays Pyro a decent amount, there are loads of things I'd rather be doing than babysitting my Engie.

[@JAIBADRIVISHAAL]

DELETE HOMEWRECKER NERF SNIPER BUFF SPY DELETE RAZORBACK DELETE DARWIN DANGER SHIELD DELETE BAZAR BARGAIN DELETE Homewrecker BUFF GAS PASSER BUFF BABYFACEBLASTER BUFF SANDMAN

[@Manny4Life948]

The bazar bargain can be fixed with one nerf, it’s not that bad

[@thecardboardboxz]

Man i was not expecting THIS to be the spy phycology finale but ig its fine

[@Jontohil2]

It’s not a Spy Psychology video what do you mean?

[@thecardboardboxz]

@@Jontohil2 uhhhhhh **detenates**

[@SurielTheSeventh]

I love your videos man, keep up the good work! Your editing and writing quality is unmatched in the tf2 community.

[@co8wei]

I see a lot of people in the comments saying it's just a class hate weapon so it should be nerfed. But Pyro is already supposed to counter spy so it isn't changing any dynamics unlike the Darwin's danger shield where pyro should counter sniper at close range. Also putting on the homewrecker robs you of other important melee options like the powerjack.

[@imawo0]

As a Pyro main, I don't think Pyro even needs the Homewrecker, since he already counters spy too well. However, to keep the concept around, I feel a better change would be to make the homewrecker disable sappers from draining HP but keeps the Engie buildings disabled so it can still be pushed into by the enemy team until your friendly Engie is back.

[@Kikker861]

Nerfing the sapper damage is an ok solution as the homewrecker is situational, but I would try a deploy time penalty (Axtinguisher) instead. This would bring it to a more fair matchup. The one swing was likely done because pyro can't repair buildings and that means until the engie returns to repair, the building is weakened. Fun video!

[@darkmewmewsans5481]

I find it funny how fishstickonastick and multiple other people I've seen have gotten more utility out of the double damage to buidlings stat than the sapper function most people know the homewrecker for, honestly making it two hits on a sapper or removing it outright in exchange for better sentry busting capabilities would be really cool imo

[@SketchHusk]

Outside of the cool proposition for the change, the one-hit removal aspect was not only something I never knew about until now, but also what I immediately thought was a problem by itself when it insults part of Engineer's purpose like if Heavy were to build his own teleporters.

[@alexanderchristopher4151]

Guess we're all just grabbing SiivaGunner's finest work now lol on the topic of weapon changes: i think letting Neon be the sapper remover and taking the option off the Homewrecker while keeping the damage buff and making it more suited to fighting sentries seems like itd introduce a little extra diversity into Pyro's melee options.

[@epicgamerzfail4575]

compared to the danger shield, at least the homewrecker has some interaction: the pyro needs to actively go to the sapper and hit it, so if you know a pybro is roaming you have to make sure he is dead along with engineers to ensure the sentry goes down. Compared to the danger shield where the interaction is just....don't? Lmao? I think homewrecker just highlights how pyro might be too hard of a counter to spy as a whole; like no other class has such an uneven matchup in the game.

[@karolsadza9594]

Spy main yapping

[@MSCDonkeyKong]

the counterplay to the homewrecker is the red tape recorder because it de-upgrades a building sooner than sappers destroy them, and the pyro can't just re-upgrade it. legends say if you stay cloaked and you're close enough to the pyro, you can hear an audible spongebob "boo-womp" sound effect when this happens.

[@z1u512]

Scorch shot, phlog and homewrecker disappearing will skyrocket pyros public reception for the better

[@forgottensoul6678]

counterargument to the entire video in one sentence. Just use the red tape recorder. I use it specifically for this reason. Sapping a building with the red tape means you always make progress in getting rid of it even when you immediately get blown up afterward.

[@Jontohil2]

Needing an unlock to counter another unlock is pretty silly

[@supermaro2349]

3:16 I mean, the Homewreck originally didn’t have the destroys sapper stat when it came out. It was just the other two stats of better building damage and weaker player damage. I forget which update but valve added that ability to the weapon to give it a purpose after the original version saw little use

[@ClaraCl2005]

I think the justification for it (assuming there was one and it wasn't cause of the damage v building stat) is that the engineer is expected to have his wrench out a majority of the time, repairing the buildings and ready to remove sappers. The pyro on the other hand will have his flamethrower out most of the time reflecting projectiles and searching for spies.

[@testuser3643]

"IF THERE IS A ENGINEER ALIVE DONT BOTHER REMOVING THE SAPPER!" The engineer (hes a spy): Yes, but I never really was on your side.

[@kayoh9364]

I'm pretty sure it was intentional design. There's something I think the TF team was thinking about when it comes to homewrecker oneshotting sappers though. The pyro doesnt have Engi's built-in sapper detector. Meaning that if you take more than 50 ms to react to the sound of someone else's building being sapped, youre still slower. Youre also more encouraged to drive the spy away first and slap the sapper later, but that's more of a side effect.

[@Jontohil2]

If that were true the Neon would also one-shot sappers

[@KnightOfBred]

I don't think its intentional and theres a sound cue for the Pyro (two actually) and it just makes Pyro an even bigger problem for Spies (imagine you die to get the sap and some guy just happens to have the homewrecker and your work is for nothing)

[@theglitch0870]

This is why i just use Neon Annihilator.

[@mrlazerim8089]

2:33 "DON'T TOUCH ME BABY!" -LazyPurple, How it FEELS to play pyro

[@thatguystar817]

Yeah but HOWEVER, if you arent attached to your engies ass, you might not be able to capitalize on it , and even if you do, there are OTHER TEAM MEMBERS and OH GOD THE ENGIE GOT BACKSTABBED-

[@RhythmOSauce]

Alternatively, I would suggest (if valve ever does any reworks to weapons) maybe making the sapper throwable so where it just disables building within a certain radius but not be able to damage them over time (similar to the cow mangler's alt fire on full charge) . Pyro's and Engineers won't be able to destroy it, but the sapper when thrown has a certain time for it to be active before it being destroyed, and Spy players will have to wait a certain period similar to that of the mad milk and jarate cooldowns to use the sapper again.

[@jcpkill1175]

I cant remember who said it but I love the stance of, pyro is already the best support class for engineer with his cleanup on aisle spy abilities. Giving him the home wrecker is just... overkill. Would make more sense for it to be a projectile class who lacks easy-to-free spy killing abilities.

[@anders_x3]

It's faster with pyro because he is not an engi. he doesn't play around a sentry all day so he is further away on average. and he has other things to do than destroy sappers, 1 quick hit it's done onto more important things: BURNING

[@Jontohil2]

Pybros specifically play around sentries

[@Zephal0]

i like the idea of reducing sentry knockback with the homewrecker mini's die to the homewrecker in one hit but you lose so much health in the prosses of running up to them

[@tommihommi1]

my main problem with the homewrecker is that a engie nest with a pybro will make the spy focus on other things, like killing me, the medic, and spend less time occupied playing with the engie

[@therapscallion64753]

Pyro main here. Yeah, I honestly can see where you're coming from. Even if the Homewrecker (and by extension, the Neon Annihilator) can't heal buildings, its still a fundamentally lopsided difference in effort required and I hate using it. The only time I'll ever equip it is when an Engineer is dying too often to the point it means I can't get anything done because I'm babysitting him OR if i feel like trying to catch a spy with mind games.

[@orangeaurora]

as a pyro player, i agree completely, but theres another side to this too: you have to realize pyros melee slot is a lot more important and competitive than people realize. youve got the homewrecker and neon of course, but youve got the rake for hyperoffense, the powerjack for speed, the axtinguisher for combos, picking a melee as pyro isnt that easy. i think the homewrecker is just unbalanced all around. removing sappers isnt as universal an upside as movement speed or more damage, which is why the neon has other stats, but the wrecker doesnt. its just sappers. the building damage bonus is very much a non-stat for pyro, you can just torch dispensers and teleporters without switching weapons, and with sentry knockback youre NEVER hitting a melee as pyro on an enemy sentry unless its sapped or has just been built- in which case you just torch it. if you want to destroy enemy buildings, use the dragons fury. using the wrecker AS pyro feels like youre gimping yourself 90% of the time just to fuck over spies a little more 10% of the time, which pyro really doesnt need. as for spy, your sapper getting one tapped has got to be like unfathomably annoying, and the neon taking 2 hits makes it just as if a somewhat more threatening enemy engineer stumbled upon the nest instead, which is something that could already happen. i think your proposed change to the wrecker of reduced knockback is actually quite good. the biggest factor in pyro gameplay is RANGE, and getting tossed around by stuff like pipes and sentries really messes with that, so itd make the wrecker more universally applicable. though id probably add in a slight weapon holster speed debuff on top so those ubers are less ridiculous. tl;dr the wrecker feels off to use as a pyro too. your friendly engineers will love you for it but theyll like you just the same for the neon.

[@thebapslaps]

With how good your edits are I'm always surprised you don't have more subs.

[@omnisel]

man alex's female pyro model is sooo good. i got it working on casual and i've been using it for so long i don't think about it anymore, and it's just really nice.

[@mingshi7689]

Yes

[@tysonvienneau1830]

FIshstickonastick made a similar argument you do where the Homewrecker is overkill for fighting Spy as a Py-bro, though he says another point. Pyro is pretty good at keeping an area safe. It's hard for a Spy to get close to an area if a Pyro is watching it and just spraying flames about (See LazyPurple's Pyro video for reference) Spy had a gun, yes, but it's not exactly going to do much when Engie has a dispenser and sentry to hide behind and repair. The best way to take him out is to get close, and Pyro prevents that. And let's say you do everything right and sap the entire nest with the Engineer dead but you die. You're feeling good that you did your- oh wait the Pyro's got a stupid sledgehammer

[@saladix9836]

Nice video! Will be waiting on the Neon Anihallator one

[@OkayDiscount]

oh Homewrecker my beloved

[@ameep168]

A next series after spy psychology could be that map idea you had awhile ago, inform people on tips and tricks on popular maps and whatnot, like frank routes or ammo/health locations!

[@Jontohil2]

Unfortunately I’ve canned that. It’s not something I can realistically drag out for a series

[@ameep168]

@@Jontohil2 oh womp, still excited for what you have in store though. Your advice really helped out a lot! Thank you for your content!

[@danielsurvivor1372]

Fax, finally someone calling out actually bs weapons in TF2! And I'm not even spy mains yet always feel bad when you guys have to deal with py """bros"""

[@robinmist]

i think its fine how it is. the engineer is probably already near the building being sapped, however the pyro is away protecting the rest of the team as well.

[@russian_knight]

Your editing style is really cool

[@Comically_Large_Watermelon]

how to win any fight against any class as spy: SPY HAS A GUN

[@TF2BluSoldier]

You're so right. Give the homewrecker to the medic.

[@megapal4638]

its not really overpowered, you're saying the homewrecker is better than the wrench, but you're not mentioning that the big difference here is that the homewrecker can't repair buildings, if 50~ frames were all you needed to get the building destroyed then you could easily just pull out your revolver and finish it off since the pyro isn't repairing the building. and as an aside, if both teams are in a play to win type of mode then a pyro carrying the homewrecker is actually a waste of a slot for his team when he could be carrying a powerjack an helping the frontline and getting in to action fast rather than sitting around a sentry doing nothing but breaking a sapper or reflecting a rocket every few minutes

[@chrystales6169]

He never said it was overpowered. Just boring and unfun to play against. It's exactly like how Darwin's isn't OP, but just annoying and unfun for Pyros.

[@megapal4638]

@@chrystales6169 it's fun for the pyro to use though

[@babbish78]

@@megapal4638 that doesn't change anything, still unfun to play against.

[@megapal4638]

@@babbish78 what's wrong with that? every class has some item thats unfun for a certain class because it counters them, it makes the game more dynamic and fun for any skill level

[@babbish78]

@@megapal4638 There can be items that counter another class, but it can still be fun for the other player. The homewrecker is literally just the darwin's danger shield, uninteractive and boring.