[TF2] The Absurd Awfulness of Arena

Some guy decimates and destroys a deathmatch-oriented game mode... even though it's been left desolate for a decade. What were they thinking allowing random crits in this game
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[@FyruHawk]

I do wish they'd at least make the arena maps into koth maps, so we could play them in casual. I really like some of the arena maps but I've only played a few of them, and only on community servers.

[@CastCreator]

i don't remember all of them, but i know sawmill was made for arena and was then switched into koth

[@BoxyBrown717]

This is all that really needs to be done. Arena can stay dead, and I hope next Halloween they take it out of the rotation there as well.

[@jaredparks4713]

I feel the same way about a handful of 5P maps, Process has a pretty fun mid but the rest of the map is meh so I'd love a KOTH version.

[@abdallatifalafandi2522]

Wouldn’t work, they would need big changements to work

[@owenblount7334]

@@BoxyBrown717 yeah doing the merasmission for that one fucking sucked so much

[@mrziiz6893]

Arena is the most realistic game mode to real life war, it’s slow with constant retreats and pot shots, and it’s also 3/4 boring and 1/4 traumatizing

[@mrziiz6893]

Depending on your beliefs the Halloween arena maps may be true as well!

[@rubyeverred_]

I've only played arena on Graveyard, I still get very angry very quick whenever I remember it somehow and rant about it either to others or myself. Contrary to popular belief, when I play a game, I want to *play the fucking game* and the ghost dispenser thing is literally the same as waiting to respawn as someone who prefers random dming over doing the objective in most cases

[@dot.5467]

I was doing my laundry when this came out, perfectly resembles my role during the recording of this. Most fun arena mode I ever had. Edit: its a tragedy spaceguy had to reinstall CS:GO just for this video.

[@aquadragon6509]

I always felt like Arena was supposed to be a callback to the days of old like Quake and such but with how much it strays from what made Quake such an amazing arena shooter, it always felt like something that was meant to just come and go. Glad you could make a video on why Arena doesn't exactly fit the quota of modern day TF2 even with attempts to revive it.

[@Nibelungenwarmongers]

The most common to quake mode in tf2 is an mge. Quake comp is based on 1v1 deathmatch with frag limit, of course it's not looks like an mge as well

[@kal_1301]

I hope SpaceGuy doesn't get an aneurysm with all of his amusing alliterations!

[@animewolfOtakuwolf]

Strangely enough, while Arena was always annoying to play on it's own, the Randomizer mod actually made it a lot more entertaining, and ironnically, exactly because of it's random factor throwing annoying picks and counters out the window, making rounds shorter as well. Plus, having so much randomness made it lesser skill based than the main mode, so people were less tryhardy and more chill about it. Even when dieing, instead of frustration for the wait there was some sense of curiosity about what kind of wacked out loadout would have appeared next.

[@andrewmore6058]

I wish they brought back the arena maps for king of the hill, there were some solid maps

[@SpaceGuyOnline]

Byre and Offblast sure But ain't no way in hell would Watchtower be good in this day and age

[@kaimat12]

Arena was amazing back in the day

[@skuich7806]

I think there's a poopy Joe sighting at 1:03 when he peaks up from behind the boxes

[@catisticallyspeaking]

What you described with the respawn was tried in a fanmade competitive gamemode called "Arena Respawn", and it was actually really fun

[@SpaceGuyOnline]

Heard of it, literally just thought it was Arena but you can respawn and that's it

[@DBArtsCreators]

A few easy fixes Arena could have had: * After 1 minute, the point opens. Capping the point doesn't win the match, but revives the capping team's team and gives that team guaranteed crits. * After 2 minutes, anyone dead is respawned as part of the 'purple team'; they can respawn and seek to kill everyone on the either team. * After 3 minutes, the match is over and the team with the most points wins (each surviving player adds 5 points let's say, and each kill adds 5 points). * 1st Blood still exists; instead of crits though, it gives you 1 instant-respawn. * The longer the match goes on, the greater a point penalty both teams face. * Neither team loses points for deaths.

[@epickpotato25]

Another cool concept would be giving each team limeted lives and opening the control point from the beggining so it keeps its less punishing for New players while still being tactic and team work based.

[@TheAllSeeingGamer1]

Absolutely not

[@DBArtsCreators]

@@epickpotato25 I wouldn't keep it open from the beginning - both teams would rush for the point and defeat the purpose of the 'Arena' (which is still 'wipe out all enemies as fast as you can with only your team's gimmicks/skills. The point unlocking just shows the ticking clock and gives a quick route to ending things if a player is trying to coward-out. Allowing the coward-player's team to vote-kill that player's merc is also a solution for such - can't hide if your own team won't let you from beyond the grave). Opening it earlier might be a good idea though (as well as having the 'teamless respawn' start earlier); perhaps the 0:30 mark (point opens) & 1:30 mark ('teamless respawns'), rather than the 1:00 mark & 2:00 mark respectively.

[@DBArtsCreators]

@@epickpotato25 I'm also now thinking that the 'First-Blood respawn' could bounce between players as an optional thing (with the option turned on, whoever kills the First-Blood Killer gets the instant respawn, while said FBK obviously respawns. Would have to be limited to being a community server option though, it'd be too open to abuse on standard Valve servers).

[@DBArtsCreators]

@@TheAllSeeingGamer1 And why not?

[@rake483]

Endless rounds were not an issue. People would cap the point and win that way if the other team was too passive.

[@SpaceGuyOnline]

From a guy whose played a decent chunk of Arena and an exuberant amount of VSH I hard disagree, In VSH especially when the cap opens up when 3 people are alive and your essentially at the mercy of a Liberty Launcher Soldier flying across the map. People will not cap, they might stand on the cap to pressure people to come to them. But they'll rarely ever fully cap

[@rake483]

@@SpaceGuyOnline Yea, thats true. Wins by fully capping the point were rare, but starting to cap the point was usually enough to make the other team come out and fight.

[@h20gamez]

As someone who runs TFArena, we've tried running both normal and arena respawn. Let me tell you arena respawn fixes a lot of glaring issues but arena can still feel like both teams are pushing into 5cp last simultaneously. It is a very stalematey gamemode when taken to a competitive level.

[@susragejr477]

At least it gave us VSH and Freak Fortress

[@greenoftreeblackofblue6625]

I get it's bad but I still want a server to play it on.

[@G4BR13L_]

I only have good memories of Arena from around 2012-14, it was a different gamemode that i liked a lot. I think Arena should be the competitive mode of TF2 with 9 players on each team, one for each class. Your suggestion for changes are good and along with a similar system like in CSGO where the best of X rounds would get the win and maybe an economy system using nvm upgrades could've pushed the competitive scene really forward.

[@SpaceGuyOnline]

Less so on the round based money thing It works in cs and valorant because you swap sides, so if you fall behind during the attack phase you can catch up in defence with the advantage of extra cash from the previous wins In TF2 there is no swapping since it's a symmetrical map, you attack and defend at the same time meaning giving one team an advantage over successive wins would make it worse

[@Angerdomeable]

Arena mode was my most played gamemode back in the day and was legitimately my favorite. The introduction of casual mode killed it, the poor thing.

[@fernigator1377]

honestly I dislike arena but maybe if they updated it to disable the deadringer and cloak n dagger aswell as make it easily avaliable on casual would probably make me wanna play it for a short lil bit

[@abildamil]

Poopy Joe at 1:04 behind the crates

[@FubukiKai]

gg, beat me to it

[@SpaceGuyOnline]

Yep

[@saliinas7807]

There are some arena servers I personally play on that have these ideas already implanted as well as some other quality of life changes that I personally enjoy very much, also paired with an active player base that communicate well and is friendly.

[@Mf_CHIP]

Plz tell me

[@FubukiKai]

1:04, behind the crates, already found by someone else tho (but they deleted the comment? (no they didnt youtube is just being silly))

[@theflamethr0wer724]

my idea how to fix the arena mode: just make in into a Player Destruction mode. Instead of a point in the centre of the map after a while will spawn a case with a good number of bonus points in case one the teams need to catch up. People still kill each other all over the map, but this time everyone can respawn.

[@jalontf2]

I will echo other comments - the maps themselves are beautiful. They NEED to be reconstituted as koth maps

[@Mf_CHIP]

Exactly

[@mathieuguenier3658]

150 views ? oh this is doing numbers XD

[@corrinvondrachen1097]

Does bullet spread really matter? Do we remove all random spread? Heavy's spread? Just shotguns? If so why just them? And why does nobody talk about random fall damage?

[@SpaceGuyOnline]

Random fall damage hasn't been a thing for awhile. The reason why we remove shotgun spread and not minigun, smg or other fast firing weapons is because A. They'd just be a laser and B. Because TF2 actually has the system built in to disable specifically Shotgun spread. This is something a lot more people would know if they didn't just listen or view ZestyJesus's video on the topic which is filled with misinformation

[@zOOpygOOpert]

I actually really like Arena. I only ever played it in TF2C so maybe thats why, because it just basically being all stock weapons, its more in the scenario Arena was designed with. And I believe TF2C tweaks arena to allow 12+ or odd numbered teams. I like how you have to be careful with your every move and that males winnung really rewarding. Will say though, it absolutely cripples Demo and Soldier as it's almost NEVER worth blast jumping as you cannot risk losing health. I also appreciate the down time death guves me to chat with ppl and do stuff while I wait for a round or watch someone die in a funny way (in-game). However I agree Arena isn't perfect for TF2. I think Player Destruction is so much more fun, but I hope we can get Arena back somehow, maybe more in line with that one Scream Fortress map you mentioned.

[@JontenWT]

i remember STAR_ making a video on RANDOMIZER arena. with the server ip in the description n stuff. the only fun arena server ive played 100s of hours on. cuz arena sucks so why not add more bullshit to it right? :P (2012 - 2019)

[@MegamiImperatrix]

The most entertaining TF2 KZbinr doesn't exi-

[@Nieveria]

arena pisses me off so much because it's so close to just being a team deathmatch mode that this game just never had for some reason outside of player destruction

[@the_epic_memer553]

I remember finding a lonely arena server. I dominated some guy using the huntsman and jarate. I think he called me the n word. 10/10 gamemode

[@danielsurvivor1372]

4:39 Mate where did you find not just an arena running server, but also a server that has a guy with World Traveler map stamp hat? His hat looks kinda dope with all those blue stamps he collected, wish the unusual effect was any good

[@laminateshark91]

I think a guy actually tried to fix the game mode (awk i think was his name?) There was even a PvE game mode.

[@simboyc100]

Respawn doesn't fix arena mode, it just prolongs rounds even more. When you have the potential to bring back your entire team it makes players play more slowly and less risky, since the valve of your life is a lot greater. It also just completely defeats the point of the gamemode, at what point why not just play Player Destruction or Hightower or KOTH? Arena mode is supposed to be like a non-stop set of midfights, the round is supposed to end when one team gets control of the area. A lot of the fun in arena mode is taking what you learnt from the last round and applying it to get the advantage. The fact that death has it's consequences in the gamemode is a big reason why it's fun. It's generally not worth it just so Timmy the scout main who rushes out on his own and dies in a 1v6 doesn't have to try and think of a better opening strategy. Capping to win might be lame for some players, but it's necessary to counter even lamer strats like the """stealthy""" spy who sits in Cloak and Dagger all round waiting to the absolute perfect time to strike. What the gamemode really needs is a way to condition players to not stall the round. The timer is a good idea, but some kind of direct motivator like Graveyard has would really help players from ruining the enjoyment of the gamemode.

[@SpaceGuyOnline]

Your opening statement alone makes zero sense Why would players value their life more if they have the potential to have another one. That alone would make them play a lot more risky. The game would still end after the fight near mid but instead of players then being forced to roam around the map searching for stragglers, only to pull back if they're camping and thus delaying. They can then cap the point giving them a severe advantage to kill said enemies

[@simboyc100]

@@SpaceGuyOnline ...Or they could just cap and win. Making everyone respawn just to hunt down the Cloak and Dagger Spy anyway is slower than just winning when you cap. It also discourages teams with less players to actually fight, but they have the potential to bring back their team, and thus they'd play more passively, slowing the game down even more. Respawns also just defeat the point of the gamemode. At what point would you just rather play KOTH? Just because it feels bad to die early in the round doesn't mean we should argue for the removal the punishment for being bad.

[@SpaceGuyOnline]

@@simboyc100 "they could just cap" "Respawns defeat the point of the game, why not just play KOTH instead" Arena is about killing people not capping the point, Arena failed as a game because it made capturing the point a much more important win condition than killing people. Especially when the rounds have infinite time compared to my purposed rework which would end after 3 minutes. That leaves a minute for fighting right at the start, a minute to then cap if need be to ressuract any players giving you the lead and then another minute to then kill any stragglers with the full team or to win by having more people alive The fact people would play more passively when they have the potential to completely turn the tide of the battle also makes zero sense, obviously its a case by case scenario but if you're down 3-6, you'd still have a chance compared to base Arena which would encourage those people to run away and hide from fights

[@simboyc100]

​@@SpaceGuyOnline Arena mode is about the dynamics of a midfight. It's not supposed to be some drawn out deathmatch. Player destruction does deathmatching in TF2 far better and no maps that are actually big enough for a good deathmatch so I don't get this instance on turning Arena mode into deathmatch. And no, respawns do slow down rounds. When you have that 3v6, you'll likely lose, but that means you also don't have much to lose yourself. Hiding is directly countered by capping so your forced to do nothing about your situation, vs "Well if I can just get a sneaky cap then all this hiding will be worth it!". It's disadvantageous but it's also not impossible to turn around. The times it does become too long is directly the result of deliberate stalling by refusing to cap. Arena mode isn't perfect, the fact that players do insists on being anti cap is a result of game design that pushes players in the wrong direction. But uprooting the whole basis of the gamemode isn't the solution.

[@drogoz4042]

Some one gets it in the comments at least

[@Bacon956]

6:45 Fun fact, as a result of removing the First Blood mechanic, it is impossible to get the two corresponding Scout Achievements on official Valve servers as Graveyard is the only official Arena map, even if run only during Scream Fortress.

[@ripwaluigi5234]

4:55 is that the advance wars ost I hear?

[@windingism]

hey random map designer reading this, make an arena_lumberyard remake called "arena_graveyard" with the point teammate revival idea.

[@mrhat1073]

there's a video called "How I Put ROBOTS In Arena Mode" by awk which makes some cool changes to arena. there's a server that's still up and available to play on too

[@danielsurvivor1372]

Is it just me who wants someone to make a Class/Unlock tier list for this goofy aah gamemode?

[@spaghettproductions4989]

I think the only way to fix arena is to just make it a team death match type game mode, kinda like player destruction but with out the need for picking up objects and taking them to a drop off point. I mainly hate arena due to the whole no respawns thing as I don't like the fact that I can round a corner, die to like 3 people I didn't know were there and have to sit the whole round out. (Honestly grinding out the graveyard contract for scream fortress drove me crazy, and I wasn't the only one as nearly every match I joined on that map was filled with ppl in chat complaining about how frustrating completing the contract was due to arena being.....well arena)

[@rattle_me_bones]

Hey, what is that outro song you use? It's a massive vibe.

[@DaltonIzHere]

Arena could easily be fixed up with one idea. The Revive system: When a player is killed, they become a form of holographic plate (like MvM), you could either have a Medic heal their entire health or you could pick it up and need to hold it until it charges up.

[@ExtraPrivatable]

It would make medics even more as a target tho

[@Sp00kyGuy127]

At minute 1:05 Poopy Joe can be briefly seen appearing and then disappearing behind the crates near the capture point in the middle of the screen.

[@Bassie-ki8wd]

I have fond memories of playing railbait’s arena_2fort server. It is unfortunately defunct these days. I have almost 7k hours in the game and I’m not exaggerating when i say arena_2fort is probably my most played map

[@godfii]

many good memories on that server 😭😭

[@Hunter1393B]

Ahhh arena, fun times playing this on community servers back in the day, wish they brought it back along the other dead maps and gamemodes, remember cactus canion!?

[@Wyti]

I like arena doe smh

[@Sunsetradi0]

first team to revive their players 3 times wins, it would make the matches very frenetic and fun trying to capture the point

[@SoldadoCatolico]

arena maps are absolutely great for sfm animations tho

[@ZestyJesus]

I read title Instant dislike It's like you've slapped my mother How dare you slap my mother Arena mod

[@SpaceGuyOnline]

After playing 99 hours of Arena 97 of them in spectator I gotta agree

[@walden6347]

dont die lmao

[@drcsection]

Idea: Keep the first blood mechanic, but replace 5 seconds of crits with 5 seconds of speed boost

[@Hynet1]

arena walked so custom game modes could run

[@TruDruChocolateMilk]

i was seen twice in this video, one time on top of the roof and the second was when i got backstabbed. you could also see me talking a lot.

[@valence9503]

arena mode is great, the community’s unable to play this game in a different context cuz they hate change and think that being able to suck at the game is “what makes it great”

[@Acedafox]

Haha funny gun game go brrr

[@LordRemiem]

I had a sudden memory coming back. The very first time I saw Arena was in 2012, watching a friend playing in an instant respawn server with a single small circular room. I later realized it was a special server made for achievement or strange farming...

[@beaniegaming69]

Theres an almost carbon copy of this gamemode in a game called Battle For Neighborville, its a pvz shooter game. The gamemode is even called battle arena. Due to how bfn plays, it works really well. Instead a permanent capture point, a small capture point appears in the center of the map after a set amount of time in order to end rounds that would normally drag out. Capturing said point causes your team to win. And since the dps in BFN is pretty low and the arena maps are big, super quick wins are not easy to do but are possible. The last player alive also gets xray to see the enemy team. Best out of four rounds wins.

[@T-Girl-T3CHN0BAB3]

I think an at most five minute timer with a system of “whoever has more players alive at the end wins” is the best solution. Short timer, incentives to actually go and kill, yada yada

[@techoeastveld]

3:28 Why did captions say versus sex and hail? Lmfao

[@mrmedic7799]

Watchtower is my second Favourite Map in the Game so I like Arena. Cmon Valve just make it a Koth Map

[@Imirui]

5:18 The first blood mechanic is one of my least favorite mechanics in the game. It punishes you for staying together as a team because one guy died. Your one kill turns into one team wipe if they didn’t have one or two people taking the flank routes.

[@Hdjhsjdhhshu]

Player destruction and robot destruction are in my opinion the best gamemodes

[@skeletonking2501]

Why so?

[@sunsetsun9652]

Player destruction it just better TDM

[@Gigabyte019]

Heard metal gear music. Standards are instantly met.

[@dragonguy556]

Spaceguy, your voice! It's jarring, and acceptable!

[@JohnDoe-dd7ne]

I think Arena works really well as a Comp gamemode, but not in Casual.

[@__zedel__4078]

where do I find the arena mode is it on there game play browser+++++++++++++______)))|||||||((((????????????

[@dark0ssx]

You said TF2's core gameplay cant work in a mode like arena, i dont think this is true, there are a ton of problems with arena, but non of them are to do with the core gameplay being "fast paced". You could say counter strike is even faster paced with its much lower time to kill. Gravyards healing sucks because it makes rounds last longer as people are more spongey and just makes the game play worse because people are spongey. The main thing that makes arena bad is healing/medic. Medic removes the element of attrition, leads to steam rolls and makes matches last longer. So an element of attrition is needed, like the armour system of TFC or Pre-Fortress. Also some change to the mode itself to encourage people to fight, like the bomb plating from counter strike

[@1053Michael]

My first time ever spotting poopy joe! Around 1:10 behind the crates

[@dykuvids6821]

I do understand why it not being supported. The good thing about this it makes a lot of sub modes and unique maps like vs Saxon Hale and the Halloween map graveyard

[@canman7249]

When I first heard of Arena mode I thought it was something like Garden Warfare’s Team Vanquish: first team to a certain number kills wins

[@mattparnall4148]

I agree with all you said, but there needs to be a mechanic to allow the losing team to recapture the control point, otherwise one team will have the ability to bring back players, and the other won't giving the losing team no way to overcome the numbers problem. Maybe dead players come back anyway, and the control point speeds it up?

[@EliteLoserZR]

Arena was the first game mode I played in 2009 or 2010 and I remembered it made me better at the game. Coolest moment for me was being the final one alive with low health and just using the equalizer (when it was insanely good) to kill the rest of the enemy players. I will say I didn’t have a bad time with arena. Maybe it was more balanced with the weapons available at the time? Maybe I’m blind with nostalgia? I don’t know, but that time out mechanic did twist my balls when I couldn’t play in a round.

[@Eggb0i]

I actually liked playing arena mode with my friends

[@danielsurvivor1372]

4:47 Song name?

[@2345Z]

How hard is it to just make it a team death match mode? Plants VS Zombies Garden Warfare 1 & 2 did it just fine.

[@flying_gorilla8069]

I wonder if it would be better if instead of one life, every player had three lives. Still limited but won’t feel cheated out of some rounds.

[@Penguinguy-dg6yg]

Sewer is a true magnum opus in a sea of bad arena maps. Also at 3:13 the strat in my head was dumb, but seeing it on recording it looks 10x dumber.

[@ArjunTheRageGuy]

Maybe the arena mode would've stayed still in the game if it was for having respawns, not no respawns.

[@rubles3143]

I wonder, did you choose the background music because of Space Station 13? Or just because you liked it?

[@SpaceGuyOnline]

There's no space station 13 music used

[@rubles3143]

@@SpaceGuyOnline I'm referring to Tin Tin on the Moon towards the end. It's really popular in SS13, and I was wondering if you just knew it from there, or you just happened to know it by itself. Seems the later is true.

[@SpaceGuyOnline]

​@@rubles3143 Think you're confusing the song with a remastered verison of Sensi's theme from Advance Wars 2 that or Redial from Bomberman

[@rubles3143]

​@@SpaceGuyOnline Oooh you're right, my bad. Just some similar bits between a remastered version of TinTin and that got me confused, probably because it was quiet in the background. Nice music choice regardless.

[@kevinyunseokim8194]

its sad cuz realistically these forgotten aspects of the game will probably never ever be updated, as valve refuse to touch the game

[@boneman9751]

While graveyard was an improvement, still goes to show that tf2 seems to have an obsession with shoving random non sense into arena and still expect it to be high skill.

[@adamkaangambrill]

1:02 What's that thing by the Boxes?

[@thebushbros6626]

Poopy joe

[@iwatchyoutube5394]

i love sewer map!

[@spaghettiman4691]

Arena was all I played back in the day. I wish there were more Arena servers out there.

[@penjamingwrangler]

Love arena, it’s what I think when the word competition is involved.

[@captaincookie72]

I always wondered how i never got a match on watchtower now i know

[@Asozka]

Arena actualy is really fun with friend groups as long as its not an odd number

[@acecombat2shill]

i don't play arena for the exact same reason i dont play CSGO you only have one life

[@ArcticCatStudios]

hey at least you indirectly added the laundry bit into the video, good games everyone.

[@damsen978]

I wish someone would convert all the arena maps into king of the hill.

[@Underqualified_Gunman]

I love arena qish i could find more servers with players.

[@demondeity9816]

I just wish they made the saxton hale mode actually a part of the game.

[@FullmetalGanon]

i tried to play arena today and it wasnt there :( so sad. 2500+ hours

[@bluemanjoe1238]

10/10 gave me depression

[@TableCroissants]

7:11 - 7:47 Could use some sort of movement

[@prajawalgurung6121]

VSH team work can be neglected but if people are consciously working together (FoN scouts, Pyros, Soldiers, Sentry guns to knock away hale, Ubercharge & bodyblock to protect teammates) Hale is gonna have a infinitely harder time killing everyone and its so fun to see it!!

[@alechandro89]

well at least the new perks map is good (IMO)

[@papercliphoarder66]

I disrespectfully disagree

[@CrazyBoris06]

random bullet spread should be enabled to to the pattern of fixed bullets spread cone is about 40% smaller than the rbs one. This gives shotgun users and advantage for no reason. Check zesty's vid for my source

[@theaccordiondude6416]

I actually enjoyed arena mode

[@DodoSniffer73]

More Poopy Joe finding... YAYY *cries*

[@Mandarin9900]

Are there even servers playing this mode?