Mana Crypt, Jeweled Lotus, Nadu & Dockside Banned In Commander! | September 23, 2024 B&R Discussion

[@rookt31893]

WotC: "We made Nadu for commander" CRC: "How about no."

[@iansylvester]

WotC Actually openly admitted that card design was a mistake that should never been made in that way. That's the only one I don't have an issue with them banning, because it hasn't been around as long. The rest of these they should not have touched purely based on the fact that they need to take into consideration player investment. Banning something after it has been around for over a year is shitty.

[@jonathanasencio9061]

Ngl Nadu could go, everything else could have stayed

[@hunterstrong3318]

We made jeweled lotus only for commander. "How bout nah"

[@hunterstrong3318]

All 4 of these cards were commander designed outside of crpyt.

[@Clouded-Logic]

@@iansylvester disagree as that is just the sunk cost fallacy in effect.

[@Thoughtmage100]

My only question is, "Why now?". What made them decide today was the day? Most of these cards are pretty old, except for the bird. Commander is the format where I'd prefer to see unbannings as opposed to more bannings.

[@Lemon_Sage9999]

"why now" because they're obviously insider trading 💀💀

[@peteypgc]

@@Lemon_Sage9999less potential value out of festival in a box’s included collector packs

[@philipboardman1357]

It makes more sense to wait a longer time before banning something. That way you can sell more packs for recently released products. Another interesting question would be, "why ban it at all?" And the answer is that it can be profitable to reverse power creep, so that you have more runway to turn around and release newer cards with the same level of power creep. Then wait a long time before banning those cards too.

[@prestonbeaulieu4379]

I guess 3 years was long enough of a nap that they finally decided to do something. I'm not complaining; better late than never.

[@Thoughtmage100]

@philipboardman1357 The rules committee isn't part of Wizards of the Coast and do not benefit from them selling more cardboard.

[@pe-ka1844]

to answer the question of how many casual players I know have crypt and dockside in their deck: 3/6, 2 of my friends opened them from boosters (yes, both cards) because they were on recent sets. they always warp the game they are in because why wouldn't they play them. the third guy is an lgs acquaintance, dunno where he got his from. but saying these cards are not in casual tables is some weird reasoning when these cards can be pulled from boosters on the regular, be it mythic or not

[@chancedavis7529]

@@pe-ka1844 people are acting like casual players never crack packs or cool card that is expensive. Casual doesn't mean budget. It can but not exclusively. I find is super ironic that everyone says rule 0 works super well but when you say just rule 0 those cards back in they are we can't do that. Weird, just weird it is like rule 0 doesn't work....

[@doomkingraye7692]

big middle finger to wizards for printing cards just for commander

[@TheLibr4rian]

Big middle finger to Wizards for not-printing enough cards for everyone only for money. It’s not for collectors… it’s for them to sell more and more collector boosters and legends sets etc. Giving people hope to pull something expensive. Those cards should be banned years ago. For loosing money you can blame: 1. Yourself for spending such money for pieces of paper 2. Wizards for not supplying enough to keep 2nd hand market on reasonable level.

[@SpoiledPoser]

​@TheLibr4rian no... blame wizards for printing cards specifically for commander. They destroyed the spirit of the game

[@TheRealZeroDT]

@@SpoiledPoser What's wrong with Commander getting cards? I only play commander and so do alot of my friends and family. as Wotc mentioned, mtg is a game about community. Commander is very wonky and hand to manage to do its nature but its the BEST way to express that Gathering part of Mtg. Having cards for only Commander is a way to feed into people who enjoy that format and still protect those who play standard. And I feel like that's why we got Mana Crypt/Jewel lotus Bans. Casuals are not using it, but high comp players are and the bans protect casuals. Especially since not everyone can even afford those cards considering that a single card is worth like 5 Pre Cons or 2 Homebrewed decks.

[@andrewamann2821]

​@@TheRealZeroDT 1. Heavily enfranchised casuals are absolutely using these cards. Some of us old-hats like battlecruiser magic, and wanna be able to keep up. 2. Anyone who actually wanted any of these cards is able to trade into them, even if they have minimal liquidity. Get better at other formats, like draft, and win more cards at FNM... This feeds your trade pool, and gives you more equity in your collection. Put in the work, and you can get damn near anything you might want.

[@SpoiledPoser]

@TheRealZeroDT I've been playing casual commander since 2009. Printing these overpowered cards into the format completely destroys the original idea of EDH, which was use the big awful cards that couldn't be played in standard or legacy. Casual commander players today have no idea what real casual Elder Dragon Highlander even is... and commander masters is the main culprit

[@TheSupporter76]

It's probably gonna force a spike in any playable moxes now and probably smothering tithe

[@gravitysloths5127]

Yeah. I saw this banlist and immediately messaged my friends group chat and said start getting them they'll replace crypt as the new power

[@jonathanasencio9061]

Or people aren’t gonna buy anything realizing the RC is gonna start banning all fast mana

[@gravitysloths5127]

@jonathanasencio9061 idk. If they were gonna ban all fast mana why wouldn't they have hit all of them at once? Why just crypt and lotus?

[@DangerKennyB]

@@gravitysloths5127 They're testing the waters to see if we will stomach this. I'm guessing if there is no revolt, they'll take another ban hammer. They need time to sell off their expensive cards though, of course.

[@krijorn]

@@gravitysloths5127 Ban to many money and chase cards and it hits Wotc in the wallet, then they get involved and you cant sell your money cards with insider knowledge as a RC member before bans anymore

[@cheezybred]

Convenient that this happened after they just got done selling sets with all these reprints.

[@bwahchannel9746]

It's how Yu-Gi-Oh rolls. Also wizards explicitly stated they won't ban a card if it makes them money and sells packs until they've got their full. See: omnath and uro.

[@HazmanFTW]

The thing I'm most saltiest about is I literally just bought a Jewelled Lotus last week and haven't even got to play with it.

[@hannespaulsen]

I bought 2 in alternate art foil. Played one of them once....

[@jacobstarbrow6288]

Hopefully it's a lesson learned, magic cards are a terrible monetary investment.

[@wulfphelz]

@@jacobstarbrow6288It’s the same as if news came out of a company and their stocks lowered. If anything, the banning makes these cards more valuable over time, especially if Wizards stops printing reprints of these cards. Even tho this is RC, wizards tend to avoid printing banned cards.

[@HazmanFTW]

@@jacobstarbrow6288 it wasn't even an investment. It was for playing at the cEDH pod at my lgs. I wouldn't be salty if it was a $10 card.

[@sk4p3g04t]

Same, my mana crypt is still in the mail 😭

[@emergencydraft3764]

I recently got my very first mana crypt that I’ve wanted for years, and yeah, I haven’t had a single chance to play a game with it yet. Thanks guys.

[@kozad86]

Sell it before the price tanks. It's still legal in Vintage, so it'll hold more value than Nadu will.

[@raiserofchickens]

I felt the same way when I got a foil Primeval Titan and Masterpiece Sundering Titan, just to find out i couldn't play either in Commander. Fortunately they were pack pulls, but still. The Primeval Titan never got played in a deck and never left the binder until I sold it.

[@a.duarte9393]

LMAOOOOO 😂😂

[@sb_yt_canyou_feelme]

@@kozad86 Already tanked and it's only a 1 of in vintage. I have seen as low as $40 for some copies and the invention copy is already down $300-$450. @emergencydraft3764 I too just got my first one a while back and haven't had a chance to play it, smh

[@ilikepeople1795]

@@kozad86 nadu was like 2 dollars pre ban

[@alfonzoellis9571]

Done buying. From now on everyone will proxy

[@JB-sc3fr]

@alfonzoellis9571 I pulled 4 mama crypts in my time. For the price of just lost, I think I will proxy now. Never done it, but seems the way I must go. Someone else can instantly take value from a collector card game, no longer desire to collect

[@paulantoniovegasalas8331]

I am doing the same from now on

[@jacksonkohls820]

@@JB-sc3fr I feel sorry for you that the only value you have ever gotten from the mana crypts you pulled is from the secondary market even though you never sold it.

[@abbiemcdaniels3122]

Hot take: WotC knew this would happen and chose CMM and LCI collectors packs to put in Fest in a Box just so they could flush it from their inventory before the banning. This move has screwed so many collectors out of collectively millions of dollars. I’m throwing my frame break foil lotus into my etched foil Nadu deck, buying two mana crypt book promos on the dip, putting one in Nadu and the other in Ob Nix Kingpin with Dockside and will continue playing with my group

[@chesstitan70]

wotc is not in charge of commander ban list. but yeah regardless it sucks and is stupid af

[@abbiemcdaniels3122]

@@chesstitan70 no but they were probably informed by the RC months ahead of time, allowing them to flush the affected product, also letting anyone higher up in the know sell off their personal collection of the affected cards. That was the angle I’m getting at

[@delailama736]

Happy with my Festival in a Box packs. Hopefully I get a Roaming Throne and a Kozilek or Mana Drain or something. The packs don't lose that much value with the top mythics losing value.

[@untilthewheelsfalloff1751]

You are actually more correct than you know.

[@B1gBingus]

Unfortunately this is a huge fuck you to the cEDH community. It wouldn’t surprise me if this is the fracture point where we get a separate banlist for cEDH

[@Andulvar]

Can't come quickly enough. All the EDH committee has been doing is ruining the format.

[@cherry9787]

Just rule 0 the banlist out

[@thefrogdealer1938]

@@cherry9787 We don't use rule 0 in cEDH

[@khub5660]

​@cherry9787 we can't. We're left at the whims of the RC and the TOs.

[@troybone6849]

I love it. Rule 0 is back baby. All those power 8 and 9 nerds that hate rule 0 bout to be hosting those conversations every game lol

[@Chocolatetastesgreat]

They basically said rule zero doesn't work so we're banning these cards... personally bought many of these cards this past year, because my play group was moving the route of higher power levels.

[@zeitgeistsandmicrocosms]

Fortunately, you and your table have the ability to veto the RC's decision and simply Rule Zero them back in if your table is okay with that. Play your way :)

[@Tyro_]

@@zeitgeistsandmicrocosms unfortunately, he spent $100’s on what he thought was a decent investment These bans are similar to false advertising/str8 up theft as far as I’m concerned Edit: I had no idea how much people hated this take holy fk 🤣 I get the speculative investment part, but there’s an argument about loot boxes, gambling, false advertising… Like if you sell boxes with the now banned cards as chase cards… then ban them… I feel like there’s a pretty clear conflict of interest or something at least Like imagine if a video game company did something similar, then banned the thing?

[@minasparker1421]

@@Tyro_ explain how??

[@jacobstarbrow6288]

@@Tyro_ Maybe don't invest in carboard that is tied to a game? The RC has no obligation to make sure your collection holds value nor should they. Magic cards are a terrible investment.

[@Chocolatetastesgreat]

@@jacobstarbrow6288 tbf I bought the cards because we were going the route of higher power magic.. most of these cards are just a rule zero conversation.

[@knockoutshock22]

As a cEDH player myself banning dockside hurts so many fringe cEDH decks and doesn't hurt the already played decks as much. Naya or Jund? mostly unplayable. Grixis? Still fine. Jeweled Lotus also hits fridge decks that were playable because their commander helped so much, a lot of the best decks still didn't play it, or at least didn't rely on it as some of the fringe stuff did. All these bans really did was just made it so fringe decks don't stand a chance anymore.

[@Martin-qb2mw]

Do you really want a pile of nonsense being able to win on the back of dockside extortionist being the most broken thing ever printed? What good does that do? 2 mana make 10 treasures is not an acceptable spell.

[@knockoutshock22]

@Martin-qb2mw yes I do. I think that players should be punished if they just play all of their enchantments and artifacts and that there should be mindful play around that. Now there's not. It also makes it hard for decks that relied on dockside for infinite mana loops, which a lot of the fringe decks relied on and most of the top decks of the format didn't (except sisay). Again this is from a player that plays mainly cEDH.

[@lightgamez4561]

​@@Martin-qb2mw Dockside wasn't the thing that made fringe cEDH decks playable. The things that made fringe cEDH decks playable was Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt. I personally played Kodama // Tymna as my fringe deck, but Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt being banned means that it's so much harder to cast a higher cmc commander. Also, fringe decks were very rarely a "pile of nonsense." The thing that made fringe decks playable is that the person playing the deck knows the inner workings of their deck and how to make the deck tick. The biggest check in cEDH isn't your pile of cards, it's your skill level with playing that combination of cards.

[@khub5660]

​@Martin-qb2mw it's cEDH. A subformat where Dockside is one of the lesser busted things to be doing

[@troybone6849]

And I love it. Bring the casual format back to casual levels.. cedh has nearly ruined edh with everyone dialing down their cedh decks and trying to hide them in edh while punching down unnecessarily. Cedh people that play casual at the power 8 and 9 level absolutely HATE rule 0... now look at them lol

[@christopherealy8025]

It's strange that they did this after sending out potentially several showcase mana crypts to the people who preordered fetival in a box. Strange timing for sure. Would have liked a heads up beforehand, like "hey, we might be banning the most expensive pull from one of those collector boosters."

[@eisberg7681]

Same for jeweled Lotus

[@sumdumbum4251]

Ban list was because TO’s for CEDH tournaments started to make their own ban lists so the CRC had to make their power known! My opinion lol

[@alpha34098]

And, as a result, further giving them more reason to split CEDH from EDH as well as pissing Wizards for sure

[@ProfWalton]

This is not the first time that the rules committee has banned cards that are "barriers to entry". Mana Crypt was in many decks that I ran into in causal play at random LGSs and the majority were proxy. That means that people thought they had to have it to win. Maybe we will see a CEDH rules committee down the road.

[@Trivedi_Tuesdays]

Unless u were playing in tournaments, mana crypt wasnt a barrier to entry 😮‍💨

[@raiserofchickens]

@@Trivedi_Tuesdays 200$ is a steep price to drop on one card. That's a 200$ barrier right there for anyone looking to get in to the game.

[@greenthunder8633]

​@raiserofchickens if your looking to get into the game just run sol ring no ones forcing you to invest in mana crypt LMAOOOOOO

[@raiserofchickens]

@@greenthunder8633 But if you don't play crypt, the deck isn't good enough, right? Ergo, need crypt. And to proxy it only proves the card is needed and justifies the massive price tag. Barrier to entry.

[@greenthunder8633]

@@raiserofchickens wym good enough? your deck will function perfectly fine without the occasional 2 mana boost you might draw in your opening hand, your deck will function just as fine with a sol ring unless your playing actual cedh the impact on your deck in minimal its that hard to understand

[@jarredbartley7642]

Honestly I see this as more of a keep competitive cards out of casual kind of list. If you set down and someone slams a mana crypt turn one your usually losing that game

[@davidarbour2683]

And not sol ring ?!?

[@bwahchannel9746]

Unless it's me with my Hazoret deck. It's just a normal card that prob will hurt me more than often but the art slaps.

[@RandomHobo]

​@Northernheros "you're just bad at the game" Bro clearly hasn't experienced the turn one crypt into initiative creature start in Vintage.

[@TheGoodColonel]

1. Rule 0 is a bad policy that only works if you play with the same 3 people all the time. 2. This mostly affects people who play in an LGS. 3. Casual definately played these cards, they were just using them to play big dumb casual spells instead of powering out an Etali, Atraxa or Najeela.

[@jeremiahchamberlain4179]

Almost no one is playing these in casual except for a johny tryhard who is going to just figure out other ways to play cedh decks against casual pods. No this is a completely stupid ban that was unnecessary

[@dimitriid]

I agree with 3. Which is why the ban was extra pointless: casual people could run fast mana as just ramp, without cedh meta combos it's not going to do much on a regular commander table to go 'Turn 2 Land, Jeweled Lotus and I drop my commander!' And then proceed to do *nothing* with it or have it die to removal before they untap with it.

[@jeremiahchamberlain4179]

@@dimitriid ya i dont care about nadu, its whatever. The other 3 bans are wholly uneccessary and now almist require cedh to splinter off.

[@jacobstarbrow6288]

@@dimitriid That's never what happened, it was usually used to power out their expensive commander and start their shenanigans insanely early before anybody had removal or answers because it was usually turn 1 or 2. I never saw a jeweled lotus be used, a commander come out, and then they proceed to do nothing.

[@muditjohar5323]

Look at all the most popular commanders out there. Putting any of them earlier is definitely a problem. All cards nowadays say draw 20 cards and have some free spells as well. That’s exactly why these cards needed to go

[@AheadOfMyTime]

If WOTC doesnt step in, we should all be fully on board with proxying this game. Banning and card in the only format its legal in, is insane!!!

[@bwahchannel9746]

I love this shift of "we won't/don't want to see wizards take over commander" to "daddy wotc pwease hewwp us uwu" It's hilarious

[@Mississippi_Jack]

​@bwahchannel9746 To be fair, we went from a rules committee who sat on its hands and did very little to the format for years to now all of a sudden being willing to knock down massive pillars of the format and tank players collections by hundreds of dollars.

[@alpha34098]

WotC might decide to Unban Mana Crypt in Legacy or even change the rules in Legacy to introduce Commander in a way (so Jeweled Lotus becomes playable again) as a get back towards the RC for messing with them

[@GerardR-uj6rb]

Loved this vide, the focus and the proffesionalism in every corner not like other creators. Thank you I'm following the channel

[@AtlasAdvice254]

The only one im disappointed about is dockside, jeweled lotus makes sense, Nadu duh, Mana Crypt (while I think sol ring should also be on this list) was understandably problematic. Dockside I liked for the same reason I like hullbreacher, I like cards that punish players for being too greedy or pushing out too much of one advantage. If dockside is banned, then I wouldn’t be surprised if we saw more opposition agents running around now or even land destruction because of the green player that’s 3 lands ahead of everyone else and doesn’t need to run artifacts.

[@AtlasAdvice254]

@@Northernheros I think I would prefer its ban more if there were more mana rock punishments that are good but it doesn’t feel like there are so now there’s just a good

[@BloodDracolich]

Well, with the banning of Jeweled Lotus and Mana crypt, my Uzra, Lord High Artificer commander deck just took it square in the bum!

[@jondargel1496]

Mine didnt Im not changing it. Salty RC

[@Cybertech134]

Well, mono-blue Urza is a deck that deserves to take it square in the bum, soooo....

[@Viryn]

I think Urza is actually a potential winner. Dockside really punishes Urza. Now it's not so much of a gift to opponents.

[@Kirkloin]

Been building a Krrik deck for years. A really good one that took some cash to invest in, and now, I feel like I’m cooked, no more early Krrik

[@PALIGames]

Mana crypt was in My colorless manifest deck it didn't make a large difference it accounted for 1 mana towards my commander being a double x card. And it helped get some high cost cards because I can't use some other rocks like signet or talismans so it was fair oh well

[@toedrag-release]

It's in my deck with an 8cmc commander with a average mana cost of 5.4 you barely notice it on the field I've had players take out other players sol ring before my mana vault

[@BarrenIamninja]

As a Cedh player of derevi, losing nadu hurts so bad. Nadu allowed us to be able to outvalue others and get around OBM.

[@M3RK_54]

For those who have these cards: Don't worry, with wotc's power creep, these'll be slow and unbanned in a couple years lol

[@jaymorris1390]

This ban makes no sense outside of Nadu. Mana Crypt is 20+ years old. Why now and save Sol Ring with their paper thin reason. Why Jewled Lotus when it’s purely for commander. Why Dockside years after its release when it’s already self regulated itself within the format. This really feels motivated to slight cedh players in favor of casual play. You can’t punish players that want to see the true power behind the cards they buy and play for the benefits of casual players. Why seek to undermine red as a color and usher in the UB winter with thoracle still around. Why not ban oracle and make the list make sense. This list smells funny in a few ways.

[@CharlesLeeRay812]

Jeweled Lotus works with Doubling Cube.

[@voluntarism335]

Dockside never self regulated in cEDH it warped the whole format around it as people not in red colors would purely play copy cards like phantasmal image purely and only for dockside, that is a problem as everyone had to construct their deck to respect dockside and find ways to also abuse other players dockside not to mention it made it impossible to punish the greedy 4-5 color blue soup decks that dockside was run in with cards like blood moon. Dockside being banned for cEDH is healthy for the format as a whole. The rest weren't healthy

[@JohnFromAccounting]

Sol Ring should be banned as well but it's dirt cheap so they're not going to.

[@CharlesLeeRay812]

@@JohnFromAccounting they said in the article that they have no intention of banning Sol Ring ever. It fits the criteria but as you mentioned it is a $1, and has been included in almost every pre-con ever. It would be bad look for a new player to buy a deck and then get told "hey take this banned card out of your deck"

[@elijahjohnson1952]

Is an interactive and fun format not the appeal of CEDH, or is it really just about "look at my powerful cards guys"?

[@JoshuaPantalleresco]

In Calgary, there's a pseudo competitive format at a card shop called sentry box. It's a casual tournament, but I've seen all those cards in that tournament. There's no thoracle CEDH decks in that tournament. But I've seen Crypt, I've seen Lotus and I've seen Dockside...in the same deck in one case. I'm backpacking the country right now and have played at a few stores across the country. One universal truth is this: If people can play with the lines, they will. People will push just how far they can go. I'm super happy with the list. Dockside of all the cards makes the most sense. In a world of food, clues and other tokens just like that, this card is getting better and better. Even before that, Dockside essentially requires a ham sandwich to combo with. I rather see Rhystic Study or Tithe. The value there is far less than what I've seen with Dockside. The only real benefit to Dockside being around is that the game is usually over the turn after. Of the four cards, Jeweled Lotus was the one that surprised me the most. I was surprised to see in there, but I also understand that fast mana is problematic as a whole, especially as commanders get wonkier. Nadu makes sense as that's not a fun deck to play against. Even if it fizzles you lose. As for Sol Ring, that is a business decision. WOTC understand that reaction the first time people get that quick start. It's why sol ring is in the deck. That's one of the big endorphine kicks in the format. In short, sol ring is a cash cow. They aren't messing with that. On top of that, Sol Ring usually makes you the arch enemy on the table. Not every deck can take that. If you cut away the other fast mana rocks, it tends to make that little challenge fairer. In a perfect world they'd have banned the ring too, but I get this one. In casual games, I've seen every card you can imagine. Power level isn't clearly defined, and we all usually have a spicy card or two in there. Some people are more dedicated to it than others for sure, but Commander definitely has a have/have not scale too. I get getting rid of those cards.

[@Matteo.C]

As a calgarian myself I barely see those cards except like maybe a dockside or two. I think that these bans are a bit too much cuz these cards were never a problem for me as I can just counter or remove them

[@JoshuaPantalleresco]

@@Matteo.C It could just be our tables. On Thursday at Sentry there was a Kallea deck I played with that had all three of those cards in that deck. I've seen Dockside a bit throughout the city. Mana Crypt was the rarest of the cards, which made sense. Jeweled Lotus I saw less than Dockside but more than Crypt. Even on the road, I've seen that group of casuals who have them throughout the other cities I've played in, whether it was sentry box, metal galaxy when they had tournaments in Calgary, or in game shops in Vancouver Washington, where I saw the red artifact commander planeswalker with all of those cards, winning with Dockside. or even in Edmonton where I saw Mana Crypt. They do see play in casual decks. It's just a question of the table you hit, and the kind of power level you run into. I guarantee you I saw all three of those cards in Calgary more than twice. Dockside far more so.

[@Matteo.C]

@@JoshuaPantalleresco makes sense. I play at Phoenix comics mostly cuz the hours are better but other than me I am the only man with mana crypt. It feels bad cuz it my colourless deck but I’ll just swap to another rock

[@JoshuaPantalleresco]

@@Matteo.C I think I played. Did you ever play against an obnoxious chainer deck? Or a mono white adeleine? That was me :).

[@Matteo.C]

@@JoshuaPantalleresco i dont recall but my deck has like funny sleeves of a friend eating a corndog on it so if the sleeves were like that it was probably me.

[@derekprestwich7036]

I’m an extremely casual player, and I’ve never seen a mana crypt or a jeweled lotus in play. I have seen dockside on a number of occasions, and almost exclusively when it can be flickered over and over to do crazy stuff. It was definitely the type of card I rolled my eyes at and won’t miss, but I understand why others would be upset with the ban. The only games I’ve played that have felt remotely cEDH have been those where dockside has popped up. That’s the only time I’ve lost in like 5 turns or fewer. Feels weird that it was these ones though because there are certainly other cards that feel in the same general power level, and rule 0 is great for trying to make sure everyone has a nice time. I feel like outside of regular play groups people may not rule 0 as much/as well as they should. No one wants to be seen as “that guy” who asks people to take out their powerful cards.

[@sunstrid3r44]

i'm an extremely casual player, and i always see mana crypt and jeweled lotus when i play at LGSs (and they were part of the reason why i shy away from LGSs)

[@nailz92002]

This ban has broken me. I cannot allow myself to invest any more money in commander cards. (high priced cards anyways) I am now seriously considering selling my entire MTG collection except for my reserve list cards. I feel ripped off and cheated. Edit: Firstly I'm a player and I play MtG on a daily basis. In light of some peoples responses to my comment , I misused the word "invest." I didn't expect to get a return on buying expensive mtg cards. AS a collector as well I didnt expect to make a return on these cards either. Im not a rich man and bought these cards as a way to keep up with my LGS meta and to collect. It's a feels bad moment esp. when I JUST got these cards over the past few months. So now that I have been burned in this manner, I wont be doing this again moving forward. In fact im going to start proxy whole commander decks.

[@JohnFromAccounting]

You bought overpowered cards to dunk on people with less money than you.

[@TheNegoneco]

@@JohnFromAccounting Where in his comment did you see any evidence of this? You need to be respectful of others and not slander people with baseless statements.

[@AreJay2006]

I am keeping the cards I own which do include those banned card but I will not buy a fuckin single card from here on out. I'll be 100% proxying. Thanks for saving me a TON of money to invest in other hobbies WOTC. Genuinely... thank you

[@tache2895]

@@JohnFromAccounting Most of us have multiple decks of varying powerlevels and rule 0 was created specifically to address this. Plus, proxying exists. This was a purely spiteful ban

[@The_Abhy]

@@AreJay2006 Best answer I seen so far. Dorkside and Nadu NEEDED to be banned for health of format. Enjoy your another hobbies. :D

[@ThePestilentDefiler]

How are Non-Green decks going to keep up now?

[@TheUniversalEclipse]

Imagine them asking people for money after they wipe literal millions of dollars of value out of the collections of their community.

[@dhantefranklin336]

...bruh... They literally don't even have to ask at this point. They'll get the money.

[@pm859-u4y]

@@TheUniversalEclipse Wizards does not ban these cards. The CRC is a separate entity.

[@Darthnova-rd9nk]

These bans killed the cedh data base. Jl and crypt being gone remove any cedh commander that cost more then 3. Dockside being banned kills a lot of the more unique red or red+ decks that weren't running blue. My lgs has a data log for jl,crypt,grim,vault,ect... that are played. Out of a data sample of 5,000 games a fast rock other then sol ring was played 37 times. This also takes out the number of games marked cedh. When we remove two decks (a Iname as One and Zacama, Primal Calamity) it drops to 3. These bans weren't for casual. These cards weren't being played in casual. Now dozens of local tournaments for cedh are being canceled. These event already cost the lgs hundreds of thousands dollars to prepare. I mean when top 4 was a beta duel land or a serialized card. It just a disgusting feeling. Especially since several card sellers are reporting a large drop of these banned cards on the 22nd. A day before the ban became public.

[@spiderify0327]

My only opinion (and maybe hot take) is that if we are banning cards now that are majorly only played in CEDH and almost never seen in Casual just because of their effect on Casual, there is no reason we shouldn’t be banning Thassa’s Oracle as well.

[@Martin-qb2mw]

you are correct but if they ban thoracle then cEDH is just going to start currating their own banlist so I doubt they will do that.

[@AtlasAdvice254]

@@Martin-qb2mwthey probably should, CEDH should be the place where the highest powered cards exist

[@dreamlight7634]

Should have also axed Sol Ring

[@seanmcdonald1111]

Based take. Sol ring creates unfun play pattetns and takes up a card slot in every deck. I'd rather have another cool card in my deck. Our home group banned it to great effect.

[@thebraveguy9808]

In regards to Nadu, I remember another creator's video mentioning that he was originally stronger (a flash anthem on top of his other effects) but the balance team saw how much of an issue he was, took out the flash anthem, made a note to reexamine him later on, and then didn't get time to deal with it because there were too many cards being made with all the product releases we have going on.

[@mylesmoore1683]

literally commander is there so you can play every card ever, why the fuck would we want less fun cards to play with

[@MrCenturion13]

Fun for you. Not so fun for others. But you knew that. Or you should.

[@fencingfireferret1188]

It's not. It's had a banlist since 2018

[@Imanmagnet00]

There's barely any cards banned though. There's thousands upon thousands of options to pick from

[@abbadonofhell8940]

@@MrCenturion13 Run some interaction casual, it's not hard.

[@Skylos]

Because if all cards were allowed then all decks would contain the same 30-40 cards, kinda defeating the purpose of being able to play any card ever printed

[@chaoticsarge]

Natu is the only ban that makes sense to me. The reasons for banning the lotus and crypt would apply to sol ring and they even acknowledge it but are just like "WeLl ItS IcOnIc" its so stepped as for dockside he's fine, you get explosive turns like so

[@dimitriid]

Banning dockside is a clear statement of intent specifically at discrediting and trying to kill cedh: As you said the card is perfectly fine in casual commander. It's only on cedh where it's play *very differently* as a combo piece to generate infinite mana and then win on the spot with some outlet to put the infinite mana into. So we're really talking dedicated cedh decks prepared to have multiple ways to not only get dockside with tutors but have alternatives and multiple other combos to generate a win with the infinite mana without waiting. I do believe this will just backfire: I am 99% certain the cedh rules committee will either be back on or re-started by someone else if not multiple tournament organizers as it's clear the current RC wants to split the format and took the first shots.

[@hokey9175]

They've also been including sol ring in about every pre-con so they probably don't want that to be removed

[@derpydood4011]

I agree it's incredibly hypocritical of them to claim a fast mana card is the identity of the format and in the same breath ban many of the most iconic fast mana cards

[@takumumayuzumi7235]

There's the logistical issue where if you ban sol ring then every precon is de facto not playable.

[@cherry9787]

​@@derpydood4011 Sol Ring is also much less expensive

[@DerronOfCairon]

CEDH players complaining that they would never shake up the meta. Today happens. "NO NOT LIKE THAT"

[@lilblender6683]

“Nadu forget” like nadu wasn’t one of the cedh commanders that kept other top performing decks at bay

[@TheInfamousCloaker]

Literally one of the top 10 decks in the format

[@diegoperezsommariva2509]

Though Ive always considered that all these 4 cards should have never existed. This also shows how whole mtg enterprise is completely disjointed and incoherent. And the ones who pay are always the playerbase.

[@paulkelemen4199]

One of my friends has a Niv-Mizzet, Parun cEDH deck and said “Rip my cedh deck wtf. Literally doesn’t work without dockside or jeweled lotus. That’s fucking dogshit”

[@AtlasAdvice254]

Jeweled lotus I get, dockside? Ehh

[@JRe63]

I'm sorry, but Dockside I get, Jeweled Lotus I don't get in the slightest.

[@AtlasAdvice254]

@@JRe63 niv being three red and three blue basically made it so unless you got something like jeskas will that you wouldn’t get niv out before turn 4 or 5. Jeweled lotus made it so you could potentially get niv out by turn 3 and confidently compete in the game before board states got too big. Dockside, I agree, was just too much free mana consistently. But jeweled lotus was exclusively used to play one card once in a game

[@zanny5169]

Maybe your buddy needs to redesign the deck then if it crutches off 2 cards

[@alexmouco8543]

I think more important than the bans themselves is the information they convey with this announcement. This announcement highlights the impact of Sheldon's absence after his passing (RIP) in maintaining a philosophy within the format. Almost everything was free to use because he believed in the common sense of each playgroup, and thus left the 'Rule Zero' for power level control. In other words, he didn’t impose anything. Now Wizards declares a regulation and establishes 'Sol Ring' as an identity of the format, giving up the autonomy that 'Rule Zero' provided, and even seeks to introduce silver-bordered cards into the format. What’s different now is the absence of Sheldon to maintain the previous state of analysis regarding cards and the format.

[@Sart788]

Best take I have seen to date.

[@muditjohar5323]

If u see from the tweets they have sent out, Sheldon was involved in these discussions as well. They waited cuz it’s a tough decision to ban these cards when they are worth so much

[@Sart788]

I think the most interesting thing is that the RC is a entity outside of and not controlled by WOTC. So will be fun to see how they react to them blowing up three of their biggest Lure cards. Go back 4 years and every single one of their "Premium" releases contained either Mana Crypt, Jewelled Lotus and Dockside (Dockside more recently) as the reasons why the packs and boxes cost extra. Not only that they all where mostly chosen to have Alt arts and premium versions of them printed in the sets as chase cards.

[@SaltySparrow]

Jeweled is the only card I have spent more than $40 on over last decade. Learned my lesson. Jeweled gets banned and is only for the commander but Sol Ring still gets through. K. It does the same thing. Turn 1 Sol into rock still results in 5 mana on turn 2. The timing was also impeccable that people are getting their festivals.

[@shayarun9977]

at around 23 minutes, yes the format of cedh will continue and we still will fine tune decks to be as powerful as they can be however these bans basically completely change. Korvold i straight up dead or ( deader) and decks that use dockside specifically as a win outlet are also dead. Also this is a very big point of cedh we DO NOT rule 0 in anything. we take the format ban list as is and allowing banned cards would defeat the purpose of cedh unless your doing NBLCEDH

[@mooninites755]

I mean, these bans are truly puzzling. Mana crypt has been a staple of cEDH forever and been around since before the format even existed, not sure why it is now getting banned. All of these cards have been around for quite some time, with the exception of Nadu. I just don't understand how you can have so many targeted cEDH bans and not ban cards like Ancient Tomb, or The One Ring, or Thassa's Oracle and the dozens of others I'm sure I'm missing. Just feels like yet another shining example of the total incompetence and the inability for the RC to read the pulse of the format.

[@יעקבהס-ת6ר]

I will give you my two scents, considering that i am playing both casual and cedh. In cedh, most of tear 2 decks are dead now. Because of the tutors, most decks need a specific combo to win, and that is usually involved with dockside. I am not going to play according to this bans, and already told that to the small local community i am incharge on and made sure that another a bit bigger community i am playing in will not expect the bans, at least for now. From a casual perspective, only one of my decks contains one of those cards - my sheoldred, the apocalypse high power deck has the lotus in it - and though I don't really care about the bans, i think those are some steps on the right direction. Personally, my opinion Is that casual edh doesn't need a ban list, and that cedh is just worse because of those bans, which is the reason I think we should separate the formats...

[@jasonkorf7700]

First, many of these cards banned today aren't cheap. So I feel bad for those who invested a ton of money into those cards for Commander. However, there are no ban list playgroups around so hopefully they can find one of those playgroup or be able to Rule zero them. Second, these banning do make the format alot more healthier for those playing by the ban list. So I like them on that front.

[@JohnFromAccounting]

They're expensive because they're seriously overpowered.

[@konnichi1wa]

Also overpriced because people treat card prices like they are stocks and sit on a bunch of them. A couple of mtg finance people probably just lost their shirts and I am not sad about it.

[@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena]

It don't make the format healthier as the people playing these cards were playing competitive not casual

[@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena]

@@konnichi1wa If anything they somehow got tipped off and sold the cards or were following the trends so they could more than likely predict to sell before this happened. When you are dealing with stock no matter the form you have to follow the trends in order to know when to sell or when to buy

[@jasonkorf7700]

​@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena These 4 were seeing play in casual tables besides cEDH. So, while it may impact cEDH more, it does impact regular Commander too.

[@RafikiafReKo]

For what I thought of this band what I told my friend: "This is probably the first time they've banned actual good cards instead of Primeval and Prophet". Griselbrand was banned pretty fast btw, it was barely in the format. I want to add, Nadu is on a different scale of power vs Rhystic or Smolthering. Nadu is available all the the time and it isn't just value it generates, but also mana advantage, that is beyond what the other two are capable of. But not only that, if you build your deck correctly, it will generate more than those two cards could ever do.

[@mibbzx1493]

I LOVE this ban!🔥 you’ll be surprised how many ppl players try to pubstomp with mana crypt, jeweled lotus dockside. i’ve always been a budget player, so its great to see wizards not wanting to see the same play patterns and cheating in expensive commanders on turn 1-3 that cost like 7 mana. Dockside getting you like 12 treasures for 2 mana example is just broken and people know it. Some people don’t know how to just chill sometimes and have fun. Most of my games, the people with the most mana included jeweled lotus usually end up winning the game. Ultimately its a great change and id like to see wizards do more with commander banlist or make cedh banlist a separate thing.

[@controlaltdeleteish]

Mana vault is going to skyrocket

[@toedrag-release]

Sell it when it speaks dont be shocked when they ban it in another year same with ancient tomb

[@electricnick260]

Hot take: all they had to do to fix Nadu is change the punctuation slightly. The "this effect only triggers twice per turn" effect should've been after the quote marks on the card effect, meaning that rather than being able to trigger Nadu dozens of times per turn, it could only trigger twice. And a ruling could've been made that bouncing creatures doesn't allow the effect to be reset. That would've allowed a good effect to be useful, without making the game take an eternity. I wish they had errata'd Nadu rather than completely banning it.

[@scott898586]

The RC should make the decision to actually police the format or just let rule 0 be the only thing that exists. Openly hypocritical statements should not be tolerated from any position of authority over any format. The identity argument is just stupid. The format is not known for sol ring. It is most commonly known as cash grab and constructed format killer than any 1 particular card. They could just as easily put crypt into precons in place of sol ring tomorrow if Hasbro/WotC really wanted to.

[@resy-t9382]

My feeling on the Dockside Ban in commander is that makes sense but upsetting. The interaction it has with Artifacts existing is huge, given that they are used in such in large amounts by many players. DS is too easy to be mana positive and be 6+ mana ritual for 2 mana and then win. artifacts Ramp we have sol ring, arcane signet, sphere are giving in mostly every precon now, equipment Staple he swords, greaves, boots. Then there is that thing we got called TREASURES. All the other cards are well deserved Nadu was a mistake, Lotus and Crypt are free, the draw backs to Crypt are not noticable

[@davidarbour2683]

Bro i die with the drawback of crypt so yes it can be very noticeable

[@Shadow1patin]

So I actually think this is the best set of bans in any formats in the last 6 months. All of these cards are not just spike cards but borderline toxic. Only thing that could have made this better is also banning Oracle.

[@cw5948]

Yeah, that and/or, demonic consultation. I own these cards (except nadu) and I think it is healthy for the game.

[@rosemarysamick9005]

i proxy duals and fetches and the occasional bombs here and there, i have *a single deck* that ran crypt, lotus and dockside. but otherwise i am largely a casual player. most of my decks are kindred decks and i tend to stick very close to the flavor of that creature type. my elenda deck runs only 4 non-vampires, my voja deck runs 3 non-elf/wolves, grist runs a few more non-bugs but still runs way more bugs than she probably should considering how bad most of them are. i am slightly upset that my rakdos ayara deck is losing her fast mana, but there are still plenty of other slightly less splashy options. i will be switching lotus for lions eye diamond since the deck does mostly impulse draw and runs heavy recursion, ill be switching dockside for neheb the eternal since its a combats deck, and crypt may just be an ancient tomb, since i justified crypt based on the lifegain from her sac ability anyways.

[@bradwigger5785]

I actually really like these bans. I'm tired of pulling into my LGS to play commander with randoms and everyone says they have a 6 or 7. Then turn 1 someone plays jeweled lotus into LED into turn 1 muldrotha. Honestly, the ban list is for the competitive scene anyway. So the fact that these bans shows those LGS players what is too strong and hits some crazy things in cEDH is a huge win for me.

[@marcoottina654]

My policy: if the powerful card is somewhat in line with the whole tactic and strategy (except for "Oops All Staplrs" or "Good Stuffs Bucket"), I'm ok. For instance, in my "Sepgara, the Sky's Blade" i have both a "Magus of the Disk" amd "Shatter the Sky". I hate board wipes, but the latter is a 6 mana sorcery that just allow me to draw a single card; whilr the Magus is a small non-flyer creature that enters TAPped and requires hoops to get the precious indestructibility. I need effort to fully unlock those cards. (I removed the Wrath of God for that Reason ... Yes, that OLD, original card.) As you said, things like Dockside or Jewel Lotus are "value right off the box" this is ehat makes them unfair, IMHO..

[@ffdpwkuk]

RC: we don't want to curate Cedh. Also RC : bans cards only played in Cedh

[@EvanFarshadow]

The issue is they AREN'T only played in cEDH. They were casual pubstomper cards as well. And it was a huge problem.

[@ffdpwkuk]

@@EvanFarshadow then what is the point of rule 0?

[@khub5660]

​@EvanFarshadow how is Dockside pubstomping. By forcing players to be aware of stuffing every enchantment and artifact known to man in their decks?

[@Cybertech134]

@@ffdpwkuk Rule zero should never replace actual game balancing.

[@Cybertech134]

@@khub5660 Playing artifacts and enchantments is not a sin; they are simply primary card types. Getting a thousand treasures for two mana and zero effort on a blinkable creature is not okay. You have to be mentally ill to not see the difference.

[@jessedavies9286]

I agree with these bans. As a player who has played against a deck that consistently drops dock his deck pretty much will win that turn as it gives him so much treasure with very little investment in a play especially since his commander makes it so treasures produce 2 mana each

[@projetogamer828]

This is a cEDH banlist. The only casual problematic banned in this list is Nadu. The fact that casual players are playing powerful mana-burst card is a statement of the malfunction of "rule zero" in commander

[@Monkey_D._Elliott]

@@projetogamer828 Honestly glad to see the wonky high power ramp artifacts ban. I'd rather just eliminate all that stuff than have to "Rule 0" discuss what the appropriate ramp level is. Frankly having more bans like this would be good since they help set out the philosophy of the format. You can read and infer from them being banned that high power cheap ramp is bannable and not on the spirit of EDH and maybe decide not to run a Mana Vault or a Sol Ring.

[@WorldofSoupS]

​@@Monkey_D._Elliottthese are the comments that make me support cedh rc

[@dimitriid]

@@Monkey_D._Elliott Except this does nothing but *increase the price* of a cedh deck: You still have Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, Chrome Mox, Mox Opal, Mox Diamond, Lotus Petal at the very least. Very few cedh players would be hurting too much except the few that might be able to afford a Mana Crypt but not a Mox Diamond, effectively just pushing the format into proxies being *necessary* not just optional or likely, just another attempt at a cedh-specific rules committee. My money is on the later.

[@bantxc5616]

@@Monkey_D._Elliott if its not in the spirit of edh then why do they put sol ring in every precon and not ban it lol. EDH is legit the wild west giving ppl access to vintage power level cards to experiment how they want which is fun. Rule 0 isnt hard just don't play with people running fast mana if u hate it or don't play it.

[@Monkey_D._Elliott]

@@WorldofSoupS Very fair. I'm in favor of it. The reality is that it is basically a separate format given the goals and gameplay style. I'm also in favor of Cedh RC, or Cedh events running their own banlist. Give some do that already I'm sure we'll see events that don't have these banned.

[@deadNdivine12]

Really hope the rules committee didn't have and sell copies before this was made public... if so that's pretty sneaky.

[@Faroonite]

I play those cards in my highest power deck. After the ban, I will continue to do so. If the CRC want me to not have fun in a high power pod where those cards are always interesting to see played (no matter the player) I will not conform to this banning.

[@anhvu6824]

Do the casual cares... heck yea we do. When you go to your lgs, there is always people that have dockside, crypt or jewled lotus their his deck but still play with the casual pods. I was stuck with one guy who had this deck decked out cause we were the last four. I couldnt go to a different pod and just sadly stuck with him combing off on turn 4.

[@anhvu6824]

Also on the point that casual dont play these cards, my friend once opened a jewled lotus from commander master draft. Heck yea the next day he was using the jewled lotus in his Rielle deck

[@bobthor9647]

Is that worth me losing $1,000 in value ?

[@SSolemn]

Its like the stock market, some days you win, some days you lose, it was a risk you took when you bought a cardboard game piece as investment

[@anhvu6824]

@@bobthor9647 u win some you lose some. Same thing with stock.

[@bobthor9647]

@@anhvu6824 actually- stocks go down and they go up - they don’t go to zero in one day . Plus it’s the fact that I can’t even play the card in any other format it’s like wtf do they want me to just throw it out now

[@Erik_Sjostrom]

I play Nadu in Duel Commander which is basically legacy singleton and Nadu is banned as a commander but still legal in the 99.

[@settrasurfs1780]

As a person that only plays casual commander, I'm currently feeling quite a bit of schadenfreude rn

[@simonteesdale9752]

I play high power commander, and this is the most based banlist yet. Fewer non-games is fantastic.

[@foxokon94]

These bans are fantastic and while I don’t think they go far enough I understand why a sol ring ban is impossible and a dark rit ban would be straight wild. Personally, I hope this is a sign of a more active rule committee. Hopefully we sill see less extreme decisions, like unbans, or a rhystic ban.

[@l.e.g2229]

Love these bans, i think my buddy put it best tho, "Day has finally come and I stand by it that even though I'm taking a huge loss in money its gonna make the games feel healthier and fun more often."

[@scornfirepurgatorian8142]

How hard is it to figure out power levels within a play group smh. Looking forward to the rest of the non sol ring fast mana rocks catching a ban and every tutor/combo enabler, cuz game 2 fast sumtime

[@AheadOfMyTime]

Fully on board with proxies now.

[@peterstewart7332]

My hot take is that the unforseen problem associated with some of these bans is that it makes it way harder to have the Rule 0 conversation. Even outside of cEDH hese were signpost cards for high power vs. casual decks that clearly communicated what power level you were at.

[@Klyle06]

cEDH need our own list. We want to play high power high speed!!! Causal normal EDH people don’t run these cards!!!!!

[@pegasus2682]

Just ignore the Rules committee they are clearly incompetent. No reason to let a handful of bad commander players dictate how hundreds of thousands commander players build and play decks. Commander is a great format and doesnt need the blight that is the Rules committee.

[@sleepyrick]

If you’re mad that any of these cards are banned, you’re part of the problem with rule 0

[@DangerKennyB]

I'm mature enough to not drop these cards on low power pods? How does that make me part of the problem?

[@sleepyrick]

@@DangerKennyB regardless of play, I think these are too objectively powerful and slide into every deck of their color to the point of which banning was more than justified. Same for rhystic and smothering.

[@ThomasFromNork]

@@sleepyrick and? cards can exist without you or your play group needing to care about them. thoracle combo is powerful too. I doubt anyone in your pods are playing it, though, bc it's not fun to bring a nuke to a table of coughing babies, for either party. besides, if every card started getting banned for being powerful. eventually the bar for what is "powerful" would shift down, and you'd have to ban something else. the format was doing just fine with the cards legal in it.

[@sleepyrick]

@@ThomasFromNork the format is not in a good position, hence why there’s dozens of creators making content to bring this to light. You’re part of the problem bruv, not everyone can be the good guy 🤫

[@JB-sc3fr]

Anyone who tutors a combo is more of a problem

[@animeentranced1130]

On the sol ring thing, i honestly think its just because they dont want to brick every pre con from being "buy off the shelf and play" at sanctioned places.

[@bobthor9647]

The RC members from Command Zone , Rachel and Josh, sold these cards before the ban

[@pe-ka1844]

source? genuinely want some dirt on 'em

[@Skylos]

They are not on the rules committee

[@Tyro_]

Id be surprised if people in the know didn’t, and that’s blatantly illegal Disgusting if true

[@itzmagictime8824]

Theyre on the advisory board​@@Skylos

[@jtyree0226]

The command zone playgroup have been calling crypt ban they definitely sold there stuff before this announcement

[@evanbodek6063]

If I continue to play magic it will be in complete ignorance of anything the CRC has to say. Braids is going in my mono black deck.

[@ettoreozzy9932]

The commander banlist continues to be quite a joke to me. The reasons for banning Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt can be used to ban Sol Ring, Ancient Tomb and other cards like that. I'm not mad about since I don't play with them but since nothing has been done about them then just leave them. Otherwise just deal with all super fast mana. Jeweled Lotus is literally a useless card now without a format to play with, and if Jeweled Lotus was to be banned that should have been on release or like at least 1 year after it's release at best. Doing it now it's so stupid. Dockside is been waaaaay long overdue and the Bird yeah f*ck Nadu

[@ThePestilentDefiler]

Quit mentioning other colorless ramp. The only bad thing this does is further separate us non green decks from green decks. Its time for Mass Land Destruction because green is going to be sitting so high above the rest now.

[@sabersaurus7018]

The player with the most resources wins, decks like chulaine ramp and draw to infinity and just win. They can pay 11 for him. Even without infinites they stomp. Green ramp is a problem casuals will never admit.

[@ItWatchesWithoutEyes]

Crypt, Dockside, and Lotus are banned for the same reasons that Timewalk is banned; they’re too fucking expensive and are basically a must-include in any competitive deck. Commander doesn’t want to be a game mode gatekept by price tags.

[@ettoreozzy9932]

@@ItWatchesWithoutEyes Commander is a casual format, let's not forget the amount of ban of cards that won't impact competitive that are still ban because of the casual aspect. And about the price in order to be able to compete where is the line then? Orcish Bowmaster, Sheoldred, the Apocalypse, The One Ring, Force of Will, Force of Negation, The Great Henge, Demonic Tutor, Rhystic Study should all probably be ban as well too since I think they could be auto includes in their colors for competitive - maybe not The Great Henge. Let's not even get into the reserved list cards like dual lands. Also should we wait X time and see if second market adjust and wizards reprints the cards and if they are X or more price ban it? Is not like the RC has control of that. If wizards had reprinted Dockside more and Jeweled Lotus would it not be necessary to ban it? Commander isn't a game mode gatekept by price tags you can play whatever you want and at whatever power level you want. You decide your budget. Honestly I think commander and competitive should probably be separated because the price argument only works to some degree in the competitive side. And if we are looking at competitive maybe Thassa's Oracle should be banned

[@davidarbour2683]

@@ItWatchesWithoutEyesso why is gaya craddle not ban ?

[@Zakharon]

Good Sol Ring in my opinion is fine because literally it is dirt cheap, everyone has one, it kinda is iconic, not every precon comes with a Nadu or Mana Crypt

[@nodekapunk]

You sound poor. Just don’t play cedh. No reason to ruin a format for poor people who can already rule zero cards they don’t like out of the game

[@Zakharon]

@@nodekapunk Maybe you shouldn't be investing large amounts of money into cardboard used in a fan made competitive card game format based off a banlist for a super casual fan made game format

[@nodekapunk]

@@Zakharon I’m not hurting about the loss in value. :p I never complained about costs in my comment. The problem is, that it affects cedh rather than casual.

[@MofiaManMoffatt]

This is great finally when I go to a LGS and i ask what power level, they won't say 6-8 and pull out crypt and control the game to the end. Some places you can avoid those peeps but some place make your pods random.

[@thebigsquig]

I hate it when stores do random pods. Makes no sense.

[@derekprestwich7036]

The more I think about it, the more I think this is why there was a ban. Rule 0 is usually conducted by merely asking “power level?” At LGS and a lot of times people heavily downplay the power level of their deck and no further questions are asked. Then casual players see expensive, high powered cards out ramp them early in the game, they don’t catch up and end up having a bad time.

[@jean-paulbascelli1078]

Good, next they can axe: Chrome mox Mox diamond Mox amber Lotus petal sol ring grim monolith mana vault thassa's oracle gaea's cradle timetwister wheel of fortune ancient tomb city of traitors rhystic study Then, maybe, just maybe Commander might become balanced.

[@davediplock1273]

Ban is good for game play but it is total BS that Mana Crypt and Jewel Lotus were premium chase cards in the recent LCI and CMM sets to lure buyers. WOTC has now lost all consumer’s confidence on the collector’s market for ultra rare variants.

[@PsychoDiesel48]

CRC is not run by WOTC but this is just straight bullshit. My Crypt I got from LCI and my full art Jeweled Lotus I pulled LAST WEEK FROM THE MAGIC CON BOX just lost all of their value. FUCK!

[@davidarbour2683]

@@PsychoDiesel48yes thanks to joshleekwai in the RC comitee

[@cherry9787]

​@@PsychoDiesel48 Never gamble what you can't afford to lose

[@PsychoDiesel48]

@@cherry9787 never imagined a staple of cEDH would just dissapear from my hands in TWO DAYS

[@cherry9787]

@@PsychoDiesel48 This is why you never see MTG as an investment. Honestly, blame Wizards and Finance bros for letting the price get that high

[@DRAKE-mi9rc]

3:53 yeah you are lol nadu is played in cephalid breakfast in legacy

[@byotip]

As a casual player: - These ban are goods. As much as I want bans to be reasonable and free of "politics", 3 of those 4 cards were printed for commander, one of those ruined modern, one of those ruined some casual tables and from what I heard the last one ruled over cedh. It needs to be a statement that cards printed for commander are bad both for this format and every format they touch. - They are not only for cedh players, because people would still bring their mana crypt and jewel lotus to kitchen table games and it's not a good feeling to see something so bland, so tasteless and so expensive be played in a "fun" format. - I do care about this ban. Because it's a good step in a good direction. - I won't rule zeroing in those cards. Because nothing justify colorless fast mana. No deck building quirk or theme make those cards mandatory to include. Those card aren't fun, they bring nothing to the table.

[@jessep362]

My pod has been playing at a higher power but not quite cEDH level this banlist is awesome lmao

[@drakimoto]

I play casual commander if not slightly on the high powered side, thats just how my local scene is. We all have one or two cedh decks but we mostly play a less optimized high power game. Most people i play with run mana crypt in alot of decks, i myself put it in most decks. Jeweled lotus and dockside have a slightly narrower utility but still see play. I notice alot of newer players and casual people topically try to save up and/or trade up to own these card and while i think they should be way cheaper there is something to be said about finally being able to get your hands on something special. This kinda makes me feel iffy about making any big purchases for nice cards when they could be banned out of nowhere. These bans seem really out of left field and completely unnecessary, like most edh bans.

[@martaneon5310]

I'm going to be real with you, these bans made me no longer want to take apart my decks. I deal with a lot of pubstompers at my LGS (I call them the sharks), so I am super happy to see these bans

[@DangerKennyB]

Because you have to deal with a few jerks at the card shop, I should be affected? Wild take. How about just not playing with the jerks? Three weeks in, you should have them all identified at that point.

[@martaneon5310]

@@DangerKennyB 🦈

[@drewhoffmaster2969]

"But casuals aren't playing these cards, so why ban them?" I think that's the problem--they are starting to play them, or rather these cards are starting to "leak" out of comp and into casual. Mana Crypt a little less so, but I've definitely seen upticks of docksides and JLs into mid/higher powered pods, and as more people are brought in and more cards are released, the baseline power level has also gone up significantly. Newer players wanting their first "high power" decks start gravitating to those cards, finding them on lists and upgrade guides. As far as the role of the RC and of bans, well, it's to set up an environment for untrusted play at the power level the RC is shooting for. Doing stuff like this means you won't get random pickup games where somebody threw a Crypt in their upgraded Ulalek deck and steamrolls people, or gets down a Kona turn 1 off JL plus ancient tomb, letting them play their springleaf drum to get a turn 1 survival trigger. The great part, though, is that you can still play all those banned cards! Now, though, you will have to actively ask the randos or friends you play with and get their consent, so they know what to expect. We shouldn't expect people to want or have to play against these cards, and should have to ask and get explicit permission to play them. Overruling a ban makes rule 0 work better than having to have a group ad hoc ban something--that requires trusted play. The banned list and RC is for untrusted play. If you have a playgroup go rule 0 whatever you all agree on.

[@SethWildCard]

You asked for a hot take: how do you keep cEDH decks from playing in groups they shouldn’t? Push the cEDH players to rule 0 these cards not being banned…

[@abbadonofhell8940]

Won't matter at CEDH tournaments, they go by the official list.

[@nodekapunk]

I’m just taking these cards out and playing my cedh decks in casual pods. If they think rule zero is useless, then why not

[@williamragle1608]

I argue I'd Sol Ring is a part of the identity of the format, then so are all other mana positive mana rocks as long as they aren't overly powerful. Jeweled lotus may in fact be overly powerful, it's a black lotus if you build your deck right. I see that one. Mana crypt is functionaly identical to Sol Ring the majority of the time. Sure, you could use it to get 2 two mana mana rocks out on turn 1 as opposed to just 1, with sol ring, but we are coming very close to magical Christmas land with that sort of opening. You could also cast mono color cards that cost X2, but at casual tables what are we talking? Turn 1 rhystic study rather than turn 2 with Sol Ring? Most of my casual tables turn 1 is a tapped land unless someone has their own Sol Ring. Then I wonder about the legal Moxes, mana vault, LED? Especially LED seems like exactly the same kind of problem that Jeweled Lotus has. I would love to have all permanent mana positive cards banned, having a slightly slower format with less swingyness would be cool, and even when there is fast mana it is temporary off of cards like the spirit guides and lotus petal. In my mind "ramp" means you have more mana next turn than this turn because you're investing in the future. Sol Ring is just as misidentified as ramp as Mana Crypt is, it's permanent fast mana. I don't get to play Commander anymore, so my opinion may be silly. But I do still own some mana crypts because I love playing the best possible enablers to "do the thing" even when "doing the thing" may not be the best thing I could do. I just never want a lack of mana to be the reason I couldn't do the thing.

[@davidarbour2683]

If all permanent positive mana is banned, people gonna just play green and stomp on players

[@williamragle1608]

@@davidarbour2683 Nah, Green has some powerful options that will set it apart in the mana ramp department, but 2 mana +1 rocks are pretty on rate with the majority of safe green mana ramp. Mana droks on the other hand I think the format can adjust to handle I think green kind of loses it's identity when every color is equally good at mana ramp.

[@DylanHunter64]

From a gameplay perspective and hater of homogenization, the bans are great. However, I feel really bad for everyone who just a bunch of value evaporate in an instant. (Not talking about cEDH, cEDH players dni)

[@shivandragon1651]

Me but I'm gonna still play all of these besides nadu

[@the_old_crimge74]

I don't really think stuff like this solves homoginization. Everyone will just find the next best thing and run that.

[@oscarlaud470]

Incorrect, blue farm will become MORE dominant and will punish any high costed commander. I will now play thoracle in every deck I can to spite the rules committee

[@DylanHunter64]

@@the_old_crimge74 Luckily the next best thing is miles worse than all of these, so it's fine by me if people choose to run whatever else there is.

[@DylanHunter64]

@@oscarlaud470 I don't give a rats about cEDH honestly, I mostly meant homogenization of high power, super optimized casual decks. cEDH being homogenized is whatever, that's just what the format looks like.

[@JustaThoughsieze]

This sucks personally, but may be good idk. 1. I know i can proxy cards and it will be safer, but for me it feels fun when you can play iconic cards and have them be real. 2. I recently aquired a crypt and a lotus for a pretty penny and i dont get "big cards" a ton. I dont trade them like stocks, but man i saved up for em so that sucks😅 3. It may be good because rule 0 is still a thing and you can always play them with your pod, it may give people that have been priced out a chance to ramp up their deck and finally use these cards

[@DerpHerper]

0 care for the "loss of value." We all know how the speculation game goes, accept the risks when you get into it.

[@the_knut]

I am very happy with these bans. Glad to see the RC step up and ban some needed bans alongside Nadu.

[@michaelcollins4534]

I'm genuinely impressed the RC had the backbone to do this. Still more that needs to go and plenty that could be unbanned but this is damn good progress

[@WorldofSoupS]

I agree, besides nadu, it doesnt make sense to ban the expensive staples because casual tables arent playing these regularly. Its a spit in the face to cedh in my eyes. They say in the article that they want to slow down edh but this only affects less than 10% of non cedh tables.

[@Xhadp]

It should not have taken this damn long to ban the cards. This is absurd that these same exact reasons could be applied a year ago at the earliest! The actual bans, I'm fine with. Mana Crypt vs Sol Ring understandable. Dockside, only issue is the long lead time it took. Jeweled Lotus, not a design mistake in my opinion but with how simple the card is the nature of it should have been discovered less than a year into public play. There was no undiscovered benefit or anything with the card. Nadu, design mistake just from reading the dang card. You don't need to pull up the article Wizards did on the card, it didn't need playtesting or anything special to realize the nondeterministic problems. Overall it is only four cards for a singleton 100 card format. The impact will not be felt as much compared to a 4-of ban in a 60-card deck. Replace the cards? Question seems like a too easy comment. If this is kept up I'm fine with the RC actions compared to whatever the hell we got over the past year or so.

[@edpaolosalting9116]

Agreed on this. These cards should have been banned long before.

[@SpoiledPoser]

Sol ring is stronger than mana crypt...

[@SpoiledPoser]

I like how your last paragraph is the same argument players used against these cards. Saying having 1 of these cards in a 100 card deck made it too strong. Now you're saying "its only 1 card." Interesting.

[@unforseenconsequense]

I honestly believe that cEDH should have a separate ban list managed by lovers of the format. It's a different game which deserves to be balanced for tournament play. As for casual, these bans seem good. Removing auto-includes I think is healthy especially as the card pool grows. Rule 0 is also great, rule cards IN from the ban list, OUT if they rule your friends table. But a rules committee is great for events between randoms to have hopefully the same expectations and a fun experience.

[@danteclavere4559]

If you’re playing crypt, lotus, or dockside in casual, you’re a tool. This announcement is a middle finger to the CEDH community.

[@the_old_crimge74]

@danteclavere4559 is that a good thing though?

[@cherry9787]

CEDH was playing banned cards anyway

[@ethanjohnson2849]

CEDH is the only real way to play Commander. It at least becomes a worthwhile to play format once you play CEDH. Commander is trash otherwise

[@the_old_crimge74]

@@cherry9787 Like what???

[@voluntarism335]

dockside was a problem in cEDH so glad it's gone the rest were not justified bans.

[@Thoughtmage100]

Just makes me kind of upset because some of these allow me to play my 5 mana Commander of choice much more viable when competing against faster decks.

[@mishapopenuk7940]

But you only need to push your 5 cc commander due to the other fast manna

[@thefrogdealer1938]

I don't like the banlist, they say they design the list for casual yet these bans only affect cEDH

[@Cybertech134]

False. There were a few Docksides at my casual table.

[@yurplethepurple2064]

@@Cybertech134that’s not the cedh communities problem???? This is unbelievably stupid. Just rule 0 dockside out if you don’t like it, your salt should not affect our actual format

[@misterhorse8327]

For somebody new to the game (just started this year): this is great.