The ACTUAL problems with modern fighting games

[@kidbuumer4780]

In dragon ball some characters actually do have slower and faster walk speeds, but it doesn’t matter because you can block out of dash.

[@ace8303]

Also since jumping gives u so many options people barely stay on the ground to begin with.

[@hasanalharaz7454]

I think I barely noticed that cuz it’s negligible but I think some good examples are tohan and 16. Weirdly fat buu is more floaty but idk why. Could be his cape

[@GG256_]

They'll change this in the sequel man. I'm sure of it. They've already been putting out surveys to ask people how they feel about super dash and characters like Roshi give me hope.

[@esdraszazo6560]

@@GG256_ u really think that FighterZ 2 its real?

[@prestigini3150]

I used to hate jumping in the game and now I love it.

[@thyme3972]

Honestly, the only pet peeves I really have with most modern fighting games is that combos feel less and less “good” on the hands nowadays. Also, a lot of modern games not letting me hit people who do delay wakeup, I cry every time my BB habits kick in and I try to check someone’s delay tech.

[@BigJay_]

Delay wakeups are the worst things created

[@BigJay_]

Imagine having to guess after being rewarded getting a hit, ok

[@kylefields3951]

In general I think delay wakeups is a good idea. In Tekken you are given a lot of freedom with how you want to get up. The cost is that you can be directly punished for not getting up fast enough with ground hitting moves. In general I think most fighting games shouldn't give as much invulnerability on wakeups as they give. However I think doing so to Fighterz would be a bad idea since it would really be a compounding losing scenario for whoever got hit first, and would make matches last even longer if you were guaranteed to block a 10 second block string after waking up. Delay wakeup invincibility doesn't really make since in other fighting games because DBFZ is a game made with mixing up the opponent being the defining point of play. That being the case requires that your wakeup options be better to even the playing field. I propose that instead of delay down tech as the solution to immediate pressure another solution might be a wake-up reflecting option like down+S that would hard parry the opponent instead of pushing them back so you could always get a 2m starter. But also have more recovery time then a regular reflect, and couldn't be cancelled in any way or call assists. Since the option would be an all or nothing exchange it would be much easier to actually do something about it. Games not designed like DBFZ should not have heavy wake up invincibility.

[@thyme3972]

@@kylefields3951 I mean, if we're going by pure anecdotal evidence than matches would likely be even shorter, since only the top of the general dbfz player-base have good defense outside of reflect>tag or delay tech mash, and those options might as well be safe DP's unless you hard bait that shit.

[@kylefields3951]

@@thyme3972 I'm just not sure how you balance wakeups for such a mixup heavy game like DBFZ. Tekken seems so effortless in the implementation on how to wakeup. It's a delicate balance to be sure and for DBFZ there's only been a single title to iron out the kinks. Tekken has had the fortune of many titles to sharpen it's wake up mechanics. As an individual I feel that up tech mash is way more consistently rewarding and harder to pin down since only a few characters like Piccolo have hard anti air answers. I don't mind delay tech mash at all honestly but I know that each player will view the same game differently.

[@weepingninja]

Accessible doesn't necessarily mean easy. I know people who are godlike at SoulCalibur but DBFZ feels too fast for them to keep up. P4A got me into fighting games and that is an "accessible" game that is still difficult to master.

[@jdrmanmusiqking]

Ive been playing fighters for 20+ years. Competitively for 10 years (on and off) and I can honestly say DBFZ is the hardest fighter ive ever played in my life. There are so many game mechanics both offensive and defensive that keeping up with all your options is mentally exhausting. Now there are games with more mechanics but NONE has as many densely packed into each frame as DBFZ. Its by far has the highest game-mechanic-to-game-speed ratio ive ever seen. Lil Knighty blasphemously down played DBFZ as a game where "oH yOu cAn mAkE dEcIsIoNs FAST?! U GUUUUD!" Bruh making the right decision in the shortest amount of time is literally the highest pinnacle of skill. Theres a reason why the best players tend to have better reactions times because SPEED KILLS. The difficulty in being able to dive into a large pool of options and pull out the right one faster than your opponent *consistently* cannot be understated Its the only fighting game in existence where you have to be on your guard at all times. Its the most stressful neutral ever created. Marvel 3 is close but at super jump height you dont have to worry nearly as much you would on the ground. In DBFZ, Super Dash existing makes Super Jump height even MORE stressful sometimes! Youre literally never safe at any distance If this game had standard controls and combos then it would be freakin unplayable except to only the most masochistic players.

[@weepingninja]

@@jdrmanmusiqking Hmm, that's an interesting opinion I'll have to think about. I think the players both having superdash and vanish makes neutral really explosive because any mistake or opening can lead to at least a 2 touch situation. I'd still say Smash is more difficult to master due to the sheer amount of dexterity and knowledge it takes to play at a high level. That being said, I totally agree with the points you made.

[@YXiao]

It's like the devs have become so proficient in making fighting games now, after practicing it for decades, that they start to lose touch with their raw craftsmanship back then.

[@Sativa989]

Nothing can replace my baby BBCF also now just getting into rev 2 another excellent game.

[@beatdown_kai1534]

Working on a hip hop anime fighting game and your content is mad helpful man ty senpai

[@ninjaboylamel]

Hold on imma keep in touch

[@roxassalvatore3105]

"Lol new player who dont play the game basically at all picks ui" me getting whopped but mashing ...

[@xodiac-gg7049]

Ur not alone trust me ui goku is a braindead character. A big nerf is needed

[@roxassalvatore3105]

@@xodiac-gg7049 mm idk I like the gap ngl makes it easier for new players to actually enjoy the game

[@ruikirisame1744]

@@xodiac-gg7049 that instant transmittion punch needs to either be was delayed has Frieza/ Videl's lv3 or cost meter to use. maybe both

[@ruikirisame1744]

@@roxassalvatore3105 yeah but the problem comes when these players get mad when you kill their precious OP dlc character and ragequit on a ranked match. Then you dont have a new player, you have a new "low tier god" throwing tantrums.

[@dirtychris5407]

@@ruikirisame1744 the only problem I have with it is with many characters and I mean half the roster deflecting UI Goku is pretty useless because you’ll either end up getting hit or you’ll miss the second deflect and hell be right in your face as if you never deflected and he can continue as if nothing happened, only problem I have with UI...

[@raive2this818]

I think the only problem that modern fighting games have is that most modern fighting games is that there are too many games where the devs think comeback mechanics are cool. Comebacks are hype if they're done because of skill, not because of some Marvel 3 X-Factor stuff.

[@LordKnightfgc]

Damn I forgot about comeback mechanics LMAO

[@raive2this818]

@@LordKnightfgc I didn't actually think you'd reply to this. Also, congrats on your wins in Nationals.

[@maremare9366]

@@raive2this818 My take on fixing limit break is cutting it in half while sparking is activated. It doesnt make sense that you get such a huge reward for converting a much better than normal block string into a hit.

[@thyme3972]

@@maremare9366 But I want to TOD people from two buttons, one special, and one super 🗿

[@maremare9366]

@@thyme3972🙃 reply2serious

[@ShamcrankVidz]

yo LK i liked the monologue but when you go off like this on stream you should go full screen so that im not force zooming my screen 200% to make you regular size when it hits youtube really like your take on this tho :D

[@LordKnightfgc]

#unexpectedcontent

[@Ghost-ExE]

And the content grows.

[@absoul112]

Man called Ryu’s crouching mk “stanky leg”

[@zerobeat032]

I feel this so much with DBFZ that I dropped the game fairly quick. I feel I overdid it with how I felt at time because I didn't give the game enough time to develop but I felt that everyone felt soooo samey. I could do a basic jump in low mid, high mid, jump cancel, hits, launch, more hits, super... literally everyone base game could do that save for Buu characters I think. I like Street Fighter's approach to univeral shit a tad more. most jumping mediums can cross up in SFV... then you've got Guile where it's light kick. I dunno that's something I don't mind most being able to do... but when everyone's got similar combo routes and the only difference is the ender... that's weird.

[@PathBeyondTheDark]

Tbf, arc sys has done a lot to address the homogeneous combo routes. Subsequent patches gave most characters new routes that others do not share and barely any have the same optimal routes (just one reason Goku Black is memed so much, his combo routes are basic af and unlike UI Goku - who is also extremely basic - they aren't impressive damage-wise).

[@zerobeat032]

@@PathBeyondTheDark I figured that would be the case with patches. I legit gave up on the game too early on. that's on me. I was done after the Bardock release. I didn't play much after that. from what I hear it's a different game than that now. maybe one day I'll go back to it

[@PathBeyondTheDark]

@@zerobeat032 That's fair. Hope you do return. I don't agree with all the changes but I do believe most, if not all, will agree it is a better game now then a few months into season 1.

[@zerobeat032]

@@PathBeyondTheDark I can believe that based on even what little I do know about the changes

[@welcometovalhalla2884]

Most characters have sick combos now, and the game has developed to a point where there are a bunch of characters that actually play very differently to an extent, despite a lot of stuff being homogenous. There's also a lot more freedom when it comes to making your team due to every character having 3 assists. That said, the online sucks, so unless you have irl friends who play or at least live in a big enough city to consistently find 1 frame matches, it's hard to recomment getting back into the game. I say that as a massive fan of the game. The online will frustrate you to no end if you actually get into it.

[@ElectroSonic15]

I think its really more so the opposite. Games like GBVS and SamSho balance things with intention to make sure moves have purpose and the games focus on neutral and game knowledge....BUT the reality is alot of people 'dont' like to think when they play FGs, they just wanna be able to wild stuff with skewed risk/reward

[@charlesmartiniii1405]

I dont like this idea that competitive fighting games have to have a neutral. K.I takes heaps of skill in blocking, breaking, counter breaking, mix up and much more. The game doesn't really have a neutral but I would argue its one of the more skill based games I've played. Point being we don't have to dumb down mechanics and character just so we can have footsies

[@glltyt]

Skullgirls is a game that follows the everything is rewarding principle for sure. Everyone combos off anything into a large chunk of your health, get bodied. I love that feeling in a game though. You can still determine how hard some conversions are even if those conversions always lead to booty blasting.

[@_Adie]

When you were talking about games forcing certain behaviours, I was just thinking about SFV. Now, maybe this isn't necessarily the same issue, but it's somewhat adjecent. Let me preface - I love SFV, dude, and I very much dislike SFIV. But ever since V came out, I couldn't help but feel like every character is designed to be played in a specific, "correct" way. And I didn't really see that in IV. It was much more... freeform? You could do stuff like jab>jab>sweep! (Fuck one-frame links and FADC, though. Even though a lot of what made SFIV SFIV are specifically those things.) Now, you won't see anybody rushing down with Dhalsim, yes, but that's not what I mean. I mean that there's always the best combo you can do, and you should always be doing it depending on the situation, and everybody who's playing character X is always doing it. And the approach with each character has been broken down to the point where commentators can consistently predict certain sequences. Yeah, BnBs and all that, but it feels like each character has so few (practical) combos, that there's not much more than those BnBs. Back in the day I didn't understand when people talked about how "you can express yourself through the character," but now I do. Now, I see why that is, and it's just the "direction" of the game I guess. The mechanics have been deliberately designed to be a certain way. A lot of moves that could totally combo or juggle or something, don't. But then you have characters like Rashid, Menat, Zeku, or G, who seem like the characters you could be doing anything you want with. But you can't. Or maybe - you shouldn't. But in IV you probably would be able to. Now, to actually talk about something related to the video - what you're talking about is hard to disagree with. It seems like everything is more focused on knowing the ENTIRE game through and through, rather knowing your character and your opponent's character. (I know that sounds like the same thing, but, well, in my mind it's not ¯\_(ツ)_/¯) And that's just a... a new direction of the genre, I'd say? If it's good or not - I don't know. It's certainly different, though. Oh, and comback mechanics. I like the general idea, but usually not the execution. Sorry for the 200 word essay.

[@lukejones7164]

SF4 >>>>>> SF5 lol

[@_Adie]

@@lukejones7164 With all due respect - if that's all you have to say, then you might as well not say anything.

[@lukejones7164]

@@_Adie Its an objective fact that SF4 is better than SF5. It takes more skill and thought to play, allows for more player individuality, there's far less robbery and it moves at a better pace. The only thing 5 does better than 4 is the roster and character designs.

[@_Adie]

@@lukejones7164 See? Should've said that from the start. Now there's something to actually talk about. I wouldn't go as far as saying that it's an "objective fact," but I don't disagree in general. I just don't think things like that are easily quantifiable, since those are different games with different mechanics. Besides, one is better than the other by what metric? This all is kind of besides the main point anyway. I only used Street Fighter IV and V as examples, because those were the games I was the most familiar with.

[@lazkzzky2156]

I think what I can appreciate from (some) of the older games is that they have that execution. While not all the times is it intentionally hard, it served as a new type for interest in fighting games which is why while I do agree with combos being easier for new players, I think if people want to actively set out for challenges, they should have "difficult" characters for them that are more than just their mindgames and stuff being the aspect of difficulty. I think difficult characters could actually work for modern fighters for people so they have something to fall back to while devs are trying to appeal to other people.

[@DaProphecyKJ24]

Another slight problem I have is in modern fighters is the cinematics are sooooo longggg. Auto combo finishers, supers and even grabs are movies

[@clarinetmaster5990]

Yessss and it’s kind of funny because the supers and all that are like fast forward versions of the original.

[@zenith1040]

@@clarinetmaster5990 would you want goku screaming for 5 minutes before he hits you with a level 3

[@MishimaTyler]

I wanna punch my monitor every time I play Super Broly....

[@DaProphecyKJ24]

@@MishimaTyler I literally check my phone lol especially when he’s optimized, I sleeeep

[@kevingriffith6011]

I just can't watch people play any of the Netherrealm fighting games for this reason. I know it's sort of a personal taste thing, but when *regular throws* are longer than supers in other games it really hurts the flow of the game. I don't mind cinematic moves/supers as long as you really only see about one per round, two at most... and they shouldn't be more than a few seconds long.

[@Beikho]

This pretty much hits the mark for me. Every hit being a combo, every encounter being so structured, metered, and deliberate... I was talking about this yesterday after playing +r for a bit. A lot of the reason it feels so fun is because interactions are much more messy. This aspect is common among my favorite games and is basically absent in modern fighters.

[@PathBeyondTheDark]

Unless I'm misunderstanding, LK is saying the opposite. A lot of modern fighters, especially DBFZ, come down to who can guess or read the opponent better rather then how much you practiced your setplay. It encourages rps - rock-paper-scissors - above having a strategic gameplan, and thus the games are a lot more neutral heavy and chaotic. Players just throw out moves without care hoping to land a hit with Support cover or not, then on wakeup bait on both offense and defense rather then execute actual oki or blocking. The game rewards this style of play because even if you get punished, you have a ton of options on wakeup - leaving offense having to guess and in many situations, be punished themselves for guessing wrong.

[@Zeruel]

​@@PathBeyondTheDark I could not really agree with him on the oki part. Dragonball still has huge oki in the corner which you reach with pretty much any bnb and it's a two / three touch game in general (for each character). Also he made a bit of a messy point when talking about RPS / mindgames. He first goes on at 5:10 that old players want mindgames / reading (mental chess aka rps with 6 options) but at the same time they kinda don't because apperently that's a bad thing when it happens in Dragonball (11:15 "they (the devs) want you to win with neutral and reading")? I didn't really understand the point he wanted to make with this. Dragonball has a lot of neutral and knockdown pressure. The critic towards it being often about system mechanics (super dash) and generic is valid tho. The rest was a bit muddy idk. The point you make about "leaving offense having to guess and in many situations, be punished themselves for guessing wrong" is talked about in 14:12 (guessing game on knowdown in the defenders favor). Those situations where also there in really old games. With counterhits being huge opportunities in GG as well. Maybe they were lesss common but even in DB you can just not use an assist in a combo and often cover all tech options in the corner (which I already said is kinda bound to happen from a combo in this game). Side note: I think everything they took out of the game (well most of it) like snap just made the game better in the long run.

[@LordKnightfgc]

Yeah, I talked about this on stream and could have explained it a little better. Old players like the "feel" that comes from having apparently unstructured random situations (like getting a poke you can't combo off of). The following situation is a generally organic one of char options vs character options. This is good imo. What I'm not a fan of is when a system mechanic heavily forces this situation. DBFZ has several mechanics that force you into this, it has nothing to do with how the characters interact at all. RPS is going to be a factor in fighting games no matter what, but IMO these days it is built into the game as a feature of the game, rather than the logical result of building out a situation.

[@PathBeyondTheDark]

@@Zeruel The problem is all the defensive options a player has at their disposal during a sliding knockdown situation. Traditionally in fighters the offensive player is rewarded with guaranteed, or near guaranteed, oki (mixup on wakeup). This sounds skewed and in some cases it is, but as it stands DBFZ rewards random defense and so learning oki is less rewarding. You can jump onto the game, read the inputs for defensive mechanics such as teching or reflecting, mix up what you do and as long as you are not predictable get out of a lot of SKD situations unscathed or even on top. Basically, *defense takes no effort.* Learning to block takes effort, takes commitment, but unless you are really good at it you are not rewarded for that commitment. Likewise, learning your oki and mixups down to the frame takes efffort and commitment. But then you can be beat by a player down teching, something that literally takes no skill or time to do, even after all that practice.

[@Zeruel]

​@@LordKnightfgc I still understood those points and I understand it's hard to keep stuff like this structured when just talking on stream. I completly agree that GG characters are more dope than DBFZ chars for a lot of reasons. The video still got me to appreciate the different knockdown speeds more as I am learning GGXXAC+R with a friend right now.

[@Bloodyshinta1]

It feels like the pressure game in GB boils down to throw or universal overhead. The fact UOH crushes lows, counter hits throw techs, and leads to a full combo makes it such a strong option for beating a throw tech or low poke its like why would you do anything else? system mechanics for days.

[@ajrey88]

BBTAG allowed for creativity, abare, and okizeme. But everyone bashed it for turning 5A > 5B into 5AA and now it has the reputation of being too simple. Also shit netcode but that's beside the point.

[@iAmCalypso33]

BBTAG has simple controls but is very complex. The things you can do in that game are crazy. It allows for large amounts of creativity, and uniqueness at the pro level.

[@JameboHayabusa]

My biggest problem with BBTAG is the removal of a lot of characters options fromy their original game. When I play Ragna, I want ALL of his normals accessible and not locked behind auto combos. Otherwise that game probably has my favorite tag mechanics.

[@ashemabahumat4173]

@@JameboHayabusa I personally think the tag mechanics are to out of control at high-level play. Getting sandwhich combo'ed by 2 broken characters as if they were the Clovers everytime they win a neutral exchange with tag meter sucks

[@thyme3972]

I mean, won't say fuck the people who bashed the game because of that (because I was, and to some extent still am one of those people), but the main thing a lot of people (myself included) who came from say BB or Uni didn't like that the characters felt so watered down in comparison to their original games. Would I wanna deal with CF Izayoi with an assist? Probably not, would it feel fun and rewarding for the person playing them? Absolutely. We're already playing a tag game, which is known for having a whole bunch of bullshit that you likely can't block/avoid entirely, why not let people go nuts?

[@kuutonen666]

Nah. The biggest problem is that most of the fighting games begin to be fun when you feel like you know how to control the character. And I mean truly control, almost never miss an input, know every punish, framedate the list is never ending. Most people quit before they never reach the "fun" parts. Not many enjoys playing fighting games at a casual level and only a small margin of players ever get to gold league. And this is just SF. Guilty Gear adds even more hurdles to this and makes it even harder to learn/enjoy the game. I played Mortal Kombat 11 for awhile and when I tried to go back, I felt that I had to learn the game again... So I didn't. I feel that the biggest problem with fighting games is how much you have to train every aspect of the game in order to enjoy it. And one last point to this wall of text: I feel that you can't progress just by playing the game (after a certain point).

[@popcorn82b]

One of the most annoying things about reducing motions to quarter circles only is that you outright reduce how many moves a character can have to an incredibly limited number.

[@xSABRET00TH]

Maybe we add a button for special moves isnt that what grandblue tried? Maybe we get rid of light medium heavy specials? Make the light qcf do one move the medium do an entirely different move.

[@popcorn82b]

@@xSABRET00TH Those are some good ideas, but I still find that limiting.

[@LordKnightfgc]

Nah, they have a bunch of ways of adding moves, even with simplified inputs.

[@sammydray5919]

Have you seen Roshi's moveset?? They can quite easily have characters with a ton of moves my guy🙄

[@PathBeyondTheDark]

They have the ability to map moves to double taps, such as with UI Goku's Down > Down + X (Special). They can do this for all buttons and all directions. They can also map more moves to holding two buttons or directions at once. They have plenty of room to give characters more options, they just don't.

[@JayVGBND]

The biggest red flag I found so far with modern fighting games are the stupid cash grab season pass DLCs of the same game for 5-10 years before a new installment is released that'll follow the same vicious cycle format all over again.

[@DriedPlank]

A make or break decision for any fighting game for me is the mechanics. If a game has a block button, auto run or some annoying way to limit combos (Strive wall break system), then there's a 99 percent chance I won't buy it.

[@funichigo]

So basically you can't one touch someone like the pathetic sweat you are you won't buy the game

[@DriedPlank]

@@funichigo I don't much care about death combos. I'm more of a tech person. Most of my time in fighting games are spent in practice mode. I enjoy finding setups, oki, cheap crap and stuff alike. The less creative the game usually means the weaker and less tech there is. If developers are trying too hard to dictate a certain path for their games then I'm not interested. I'm more fond of letting the players do that.

[@xSABRET00TH]

Idk. I dont mind casual players playing the game. But i think fighting games were moving in the right direction like Blazeblue when you could select "stylish" mode. Or Cvs2 with the groove system. Let me choose the mechanics i want. Don't make the games in general less complex.

[@Genoh_]

Exactly this. They should've advertised stylish mode more heavily.

[@TheMasterBlaze]

Now that's Tuna with Bacon! I'd love a CvS game format where you pick your mechanics.

[@xSABRET00TH]

I feel like we been buying the same watered down games for a while now. Its just time to bring the Complexity back. EVERY anime fighter or fighter in general does not need to be overly simplified yall flooding the market with games they might sell well but lack depth and the players don’t stick around.

[@LordKnightfgc]

MBAA grooves affect what system mechanics you have available. Give it a try!

[@xSABRET00TH]

@@LordKnightfgc just tried it. I really like it even though idk none of these characters. Rollback do ya thing.

[@nioru7443]

A lot of homogenization yeah. You think its because they're "overdesigning"? Like the reason devs want to control how the game plays so much in an effort to keep everything balanced and "perfect" in a way is because it might just be a product of how modern games are designed in general i think. Its a departure from archaic game design that would make everything more intuitive and polished idk this shits so hard to explain and im being vague as hell lmao

[@nioru7443]

I imagine things like weights and wakeup timings are designed in an effort to make everyone "feel" unique and individual just like you said and not have everything perfectly answered. Just have everything solved by "feel" because thats easier when the internet was smaller and information doesn't spread as much. Now as the fgc develops everyone wants to calculate every situation and find the perfect right answer. Its a natural progression, but because everyone wants to find these perfect answers it leads to devs making these things easier to find and therefore reducing the complexity and eliminating possible interactions.

[@maxrusty3596]

@@nioru7443 Its simple u guys r missing the sad but true point....the more popular a game gets...the more u want to increase ur audience and the way most choose to do that is to simplify the game so its easier to understand for new players...essentially making the game less unique complex and fun so they can make more money. Sad but true.

[@yuurou7927]

I really don't like varied wake up time and too varied weight. It seems like increasing skill ceiling, but it blew up skill floor way more than skill ceiling. Universal wake up time and generously varied weight exists in almost every big FG from SF to KOF to Samsho to VS games even BB. They aren't any less deep than GG. Allow different directional tech and delaying wake up/fast rise is enough. Even Millia's disc you still have to consider delayed wake up to set up. Player choice make interactions not the system says well sol wakes up faster AND he can delay wake up so you better watch out those extra frames. It only adds redundancy and unnecessary execution barrier.

[@unsolol]

i like the way we going like dragonball but Strive... i want to channel my lights into mediums and heavy :L and grandblue was sleep

[@bc4f985]

Combo execution defense and neutral scare new players. New players hate Corner Pressure .

[@xboxgamer474246]

I think the most coherent way to word your point on developer intentions is to think about it as a creative space. For example, Guilty Gear being a hitbox oriented game where characters have unique tools and interactions are emergent has a wider possibility space then, say, DBFZ where the mixups the devs intended you to use become the only mixups available to you. Both of these are intended by the developers by the developers in their own way, but Guilty Gear is happier letting you combine intentional tools in unintended ways. DBFZ limits its creativity to whatever the developers want you to do. Now, emergent gameplay has its ups and downs. Melee would lose its identity if the cool stuff got removed by the devs in some weird disc update. However, games with enormous problems like Brawl or Rev 2.0 would (and did) benefit immensely from fixes designed to reign some of these emergent features in. Really, the issue is heavy handed developers are afraid to embrace unintended features and let a game take a unique, if unintended, identity. Street Fighter 5's earlier seasons are built on characters with limited kits who constantly lost tools that Capcom didn't want them to have. It wasn't until Season 4 or 5 when the game really got good, and part of that process was letting the more wild DLC characters stick around. SFV also benefitted immensely from refining damage, frame data & character tweaks, so it's a good case for both types of creativity, but that's my take. Emergent gameplay lets your game develop situations you might not forsee, and that creativity should not be excluded unless it's harmful to the rest of the game.

[@samsonfgc3472]

I feel like you can compromise the new and old positions with character variety and some semi-universal mechanics. Like for example if you have some characters that can always confirm into a combo, you can adjust their reward or the reward against them. As long as they actually take into account that strength I think its fine. And I'm not too into GG but since you have 2 KD timings per character could they make one of them universal and happen more after combos and the other character dependent but come off of strong neutral tools like the Millia vs Sol example? That way once you get your big hit you can run your stuff, but you still get those niche character dependent situations.

[@kosmicwanderer8597]

That bayonetta music ahhhhh!!!!

[@antonsimmons8519]

Easy to play =/= Easy to win. NOPE. Besides, there's always KoF if people really want nutty inputs.

[@floriancarte2260]

I don't understand how people have fun with fighting games. Having to treat a video game like its a job is the opposite of fun for me.

[@blueperiodfan4725]

and a new fighting game make it a lot worse

[@floriancarte2260]

@@blueperiodfan4725 I'm actually enjoying the hell out of strive. Very good for begginer and not that many mechanics

[@Rwer1234]

I think the streamlining of certain things are fine. Like different characters having different wake up times is dumb to me but some people like stuff like that so I guess it depends on what you like

[@martinezloves1]

I feel like modern fighting games are more homogenized they use to give characters personal mechanics giving specific win conditions but there is no real character specific mechanics anymore kinda like aba in guilty gear accent core or Carl clover from blazblue for example that’s just me personally I can’t play or main fighterz for long because I like the specific character mechanics but dbfz is enjoyable to watch

[@hhTHEBOSSANATERh]

Thats why i love killer instinct. Every character is so different and are all different from eachother. No character is the same

[@theprot0m4n]

I don’t mind Arcsys making things a little simpler for new players but I feel they go a little too over board with the training wheels aka Auto Combo whiffing, delay tech, raw rag and etc

[@ruikirisame1744]

dont you mean "auto combos continuing after whiffing" ?

[@megadude5662]

Delay tech isn't new

[@itraynell]

Delay tech is in a lot of different fighting games but I get what you're saying.

[@PathBeyondTheDark]

Auto combo whiffing is fine, opens up a ton of options. Course re-direction on whiff however is bs.

[@ruikirisame1744]

@@PathBeyondTheDark I'm sorry I disagree with that. Auto combos are meant to help players out, not solve neutral for them (in case of dragon ball fighterz) or put whoever mashed auto combo in a perfect advantageous position Uniclr does autocombos perfectly imo. They only continue on hit or block and if they hit, the auto ends in a super that although does a moderate damage, it's not the optimal damage the character is capable of

[@buildinasentry1046]

As someone who has very little free time to learn fighting games, i am grateful that fighting games have become a little easier to get into, though i totally get the frustrations of the more hardcore audience

[@funichigo]

I could never relate to those jobless no lies

[@Xenos_hive]

I feel like execution has the ability for easier combos and such as long as the harder ones exhaust to reward high level play but still give the lower level players

[@TheMasterBlaze]

DBFZ, GG, Skullgirls, MvC, Smash, SF, Granblue, FEXL, FF, Soul Cal, KoF, MK, SamSho, Tekken They are all very, very good and I don't remember any of them getting their fanbases by being "accessible." Edit: I'd love to mention Darkstalkers, but it's pretty much the MvC beta featuring Morrigan.

[@2ndToLast501]

See I really wish that if GT goku is character I have literally learn a specific combo against or it'll drop versus the rest of the cast, I wish he had more downsides. But nope only strengths! If they gave him normal hurtboxes like Krillin or Teen gohan he'd be dropped very fast.

[@inasencenyc1872]

Ur wildin. His damage, oki, and assist are all good enough for him to keep getting used. Krillin's hurtbox is not that much bigger than GT's so changing that won't do anything. GT was pay simply just pay to win in season 2. Changing character height would not have changed that in S2 and it won't change anything now S3.5. Also teen Gohan is top 6 so why reference him as if he is bad.

[@ace8303]

not really... gt would've still been the most used in season 2 cause no other character had his lvl3. In season 3 and 3.5 after nerfs he'd still be fine due to his assist, good ex moves and crazy damage among other things. The size is another boon for the character but it's icing on the cake compared to the main reasons people use him.

[@PathBeyondTheDark]

The video is saying this is a good thing, having to learn matchups rather then just jumping on, making a read and shaving off 60% of a health bar after looking up a combo video on YT. Basically, *stop rewarding players who put no effort in and punishing those who put 100's of hours in.*

[@mystymos3614]

As a new fighting game player, I can really appreciate a dash macro for these hold-to-run(xrd) vs. input to dash(sfv)

[@ericward1151]

I think that you made a lot of really good points. This is a conversation I would is better to have verbally as opposed to through comments I think. I imagine a lot of people feel that way because of how much it engages the community each time it comes up.

[@Time2GoHam1995]

I agree with the biggest point on how they make games simpler via very controlled interactions. Although, I do think that simplified combos and tech in general plays a decent part in it. Games like DBFZ have compromised pretty well, while games like SFV and MK11 seem to have limited combos/tech a lot compared to their previous entries. I think bbtag did a good job of having a low skill floor but high skill ceiling with all the crazy stuff in that game. Another way that devs make the game simpler is by making “scrubby” stuff better. For example, making jumping better as newer players tend to like jumping.

[@crimsonhead100]

The problem with modern fighting games is it's business model

[@zakisslackin995]

I remember my friend getting mad when I described FGs as "Tug of War situation" and calling me a hermit lmao.

[@sauvagess]

A game that has a heavy freeform combo system that you can combo off of just about any hit is Them's Fightin' Herds., but people be sleepin' on an amazing system with stellar mechanics.

[@punishedbrak4255]

Because the game looks like garbage; visuals are the absolute number one draw and appeal to any casual newbie thinking of picking up a fighting game.

[@sauvagess]

@@punishedbrak4255 The visuals are great wdym

[@vishy1992]

i really feel like the latest interview with 4gamer makes it clear ASW wants to go the same direction with STRIVE. We will see how it pans out long term

[@sonic-bb]

in modern fighting games, i cant block. it's so annoying. i block and get hit anyway. so fu**ing annoying. never had this problem on fighting games before 2015

[@basylsgarden1133]

New patch idea: Light attacks and medium no longer combo after 3 hits, requiring you to actually use your brain to do regular jump light and jump medium combo

[@oblivionlegend2937]

I don't blame them making fighting games more accessible

[@JakeANowhereMan]

Agreed 90%. I don’t feel any freedom when playing. The mechanics punish you for the most part playing differently. It sucks to say this but coming from marvel 3 I haven’t learned anything new in Dragonball FighterZ. I feel held back.

[@piwithatsme]

I haven't been playing fighting games for long, so take this with a grain of salt. ATM I play 3rd strike and a bit of dbfz and sfv. I kinda stole this from the Core a gaming video but I also noticed this after watching a ton of 3rd strike matches; a character like dudley has very good juggles and every pro player does it differently. Some don't bother with the very hard combos full of 1 frame links but others do; It gives the player the freedom to choose and they are rewarded if they choose the more difficult combo. In DBFZ I just use the same shit over and over again because with a lot of characters you just don't get much out of it. Furthermore, in DBFZ the developers hold so much back when it comes to mix ups and stuff that the characters who do, like kid buu and ui goku, are immediately top tier. And characters with unique stuff are usually very weak or weaker than they should be: freeza, zamasu, videl, hit (not weak but has problems), etc etc. I don't want the super input windows of 3rd strike or the stupid motion inputs of snk supers, but let players just be good; let them snowball if they knock you down, let them play defensively / camp etc etc. Instead they could try to appeal to casual players by having a cpu that doesn't cheat. Playing dbfz offline is as enjoyable as putting a fork in a power outlet. It's full of frame 1 supers on reactions and other inhuman stuff. FPS games don't have aimbots in them so why should we have to deal with this.

[@deadshyylence]

Dude, I'm not trying to invalidate your point here but I don’t know if you've ever played a CoD game with a bot on the hardest difficulty. Dunno if they've changed since then but my latest experience is Black Ops 3, and oh sweet baby Jesus is their aim good. I think in general, making CPU opponents just read your inputs on top of having more attack and defense than you is, and always has been bullshit. And I noticed that they do it in the older games I've picked up too, so this may not be a modern problem.

[@welcometovalhalla2884]

I mean, there are lots of situations where going for harder combos give you a big advantage. Look at Cloud's analysis of some of the nationals matches and count the amount of times he says something along the lines of "he could've killed if he had gone with x harder combo". Hard, optimal combos are something that's very much rewarded in Dragon Ball. You can still play at a very high level without them but there's no way you can look at Fenritti play and not see how important optimization is in this game. Kazunoko is pretty much the only top player that doesn't give a fuck about hard combos. Also, they're definitely trying to remedy the issue of weirder characters being weak. Z Broly is ironically one of the most unique characters in the game. Beerus, Ginyu, Jiren, Janemba, Majin Buu, Blue Vegeta and 18 are all strong now. 17 probably is, too, but nobody plays him so who knows. They are also trying to give some characters more unique tools, like Gotenks' ability to cancel his specials into his other specials and being able to bring people down to the ground after smash, Tien's beam buff, Blue Vegeta's buffed ki blasts. They also just added Roshi. Hopefully by the time the game is done getting updates they'll all be good, though I struggle to imagine how they're gonna make Videl into something. The devs holding the game back is definitely a real issue, though. The double super nerf, meter penalty, the constant effort to kill lvl 3 oki, the fuzzy nerf and the snap nerf all ended up holding back the game in certain ways. IMO the double super nerf and meter penalty ended up working well for the game in the long run, but nerfing all snap, fuzzies and lvl3 oki at the same time puts the game in a weird position were you have to work really hard to get just a crumb of mix or even get any actual reward for getting a hit other than damage. Snap had some issues similar to double supers where they "forced" you to play to play specific characters/teams and made aspects of the game samey while also making combo optimization less important (universal fuzzy made the issue with team composition less relevant, but IMO that should've been nerfed regardless of anything they did to snap, it was almost some early season 1 A. Gohan/A16 level shit), and fuzzies made tall characters feel bad, so I get why they got rid of them. But the lvl 3 nerfs across the board is exclusively some "we don't want you to have oki" shit. It doesn't acomplish anything. If they wanted balance, they could've buffed the weaker lvl 3s. I really don't get why they hate oki so much that you can't get some real dirt after spending 3 bars to finish a combo, especially since spark and meter penalty are things that are in the game and should help balance things out.

[@YoYakuman]

I never understood the "easy" combo complaint tbh, neutral, footsies, and scrambles are way more entertaining for me than drawing a pretzel with my stick. Imo more fun to watch too. Watching KBR dodge around Magnus/Sentinel/Doom projectiles and clap Rayray with Hulk is way more fun for me than watching Apologyman play a singleplayer choose your own adventure flowchart Edit: Also I just don't like ranbu inputs

[@PathBeyondTheDark]

In DBFZ at least, I find neutral the toughest part, and that basically comes down to just D-Pad directions.

[@dirtychris5407]

My problem with easy inputs like auto combos in fighterz is that the last hit becomes a grab which is bull because they can just mash like a mad man and get rewarded for it

[@eduardoserpa1682]

@@dirtychris5407 What do you mean by that? Every single autocombo ending is mad unsafe. No one ends a blockstring with 5LLL unless it's a mixup situation with an assist. Or a tick-throw.

[@thyme3972]

@@dirtychris5407 There's only like 3 characters who's autocombos end with command grabs, and only Zamasu can set up into it solo. That's the thing though, he needs to set it up. everyone else needs very specific assists to do it otherwise.

[@dirtychris5407]

@@eduardoserpa1682 the third hit of an auto combo always ends up being a grab and this is for characters like Broly GT UI Zamasu and probably others I play with a friend of mine and he loves whiffing his first two hits into a grab because the game rewards mash which makes it unsafe for you to be in the air as you could get grabbed as soon as you hit the floor but if you try attacking on your way down the enemy could just down heavy you and get a free combo the only way out of this is to just keep the pressure

[@prestigini3150]

We need an arcsys naruto game

[@prestigini3150]

Guessing it’s a lil weird with CC2?

[@boredom-_-5847]

@@prestigini3150 that would be epic

[@marshall5346]

I feel like the homogeneous nature was important specifically to dragon ball.this made the game easier to balance, which means that people can play any charecter they want, some are still better but for where they're at in the beginning the difference isn't in the charecter that's for sure.

[@tonygreene81able]

I'm brand new at DBZ and as of right now I feel like the combos while easy, I'm finding this game to be difficult. I didn't watch the show do this shit is crazy for me. I've never seen character's so cheesy on one hand and really badass on the other. I'm late to the party. So would you say that footsys are the most important thing going on and important to master? Or breaking the block? Sometimes I feel like I'm over complicating this shit. PLEASE Help.

[@marshall5346]

I've played for about a year, and actually teaching someone to play right now. Learn a good combo for the charecters your playing that gives you a leg up just because if you hit someone, it's your turn they can't burst out till it's done. Footsies, neutral, whatever is mega important and I find it very hard to teach, the best advice is everything you do should have a reason and plan. That comes with charecter knowledge and game knowledge. We can play sometime if you'd like though my internet is a bit inconsistent and I'm evenings only

[@Kitacolile]

At this point i feel like TFH is the best modern fighting game out rn

[@FabschOblivion669]

Power Rangers is also up there imo

[@Lssj100]

This makes a lot of sense, thank you!

[@Joshua-yc9cv]

In my opinion, I think DBFZ lacks any depth in their characters. Pretty much every single character plays the same. For example, no character is a zoner because you can super dash and there is no chip damage. This is just my opinion of DBFZ. I hope that this makes sense for whoever reads this comment.

[@megadude5662]

Not so much it lacks depth as much as it dosent enable cheap playstyles. You have to consider a lot while on the offensive as opposed to other fighting games where the offensive player dosent have to worry about much. Ui goku is the best example of this but he needs to be nerfed.

[@yagyufgc]

I do wish that there was more variety between each character, it's the reason I never have a main team. If they just had more characters like Hit, Roshi or Nappa, I think the game would be more interesting in the long run. It would make the game feel more like Guilty Gear but that's not really a bad thing, Guilty Gear is popular for a reason.

[@Joshua-yc9cv]

@@megadude5662 I think I understand. So what you're saying is because UI Goku has crazy defensive options, he can go on the offensive without worrying about anything?

[@megadude5662]

@@Joshua-yc9cv no im saying that the offensive player dosent get to sit back and relax. The defensive player has a realistic chance to still play the game. Alot of old fighting games had this system where if you were losing you were in a bae position but in a game like dragonball the offensive player can't cover every option.

[@Joshua-yc9cv]

@@yagyufgc I agree. This is why I love the characters you mentioned because they are so different from the rest of the cast. There should be more unique characters that make them stand out like Cooler's 3H. I think there should be a true zoner so that they excel from a distance because the character does chip damage so they are an actual threat full screen but are pretty weak up close to balance the character.

[@BDDterror]

Things like the wakeup speed is why u see masters and not just people playing the same but 1 more consistent

[@ivrydice0954]

I'm just glad that's not gone in all FGs some just kind kept it the same with every knock down I can understand why they might take it out in some situations though.

[@ningensan8198]

I dont think I understand everything 😅 but I kind of agree. As someone who got into fighting games through fighterz two years ago and playing gg rev 2 now the difference is like night and day! If only rev 2 had a better netcode I would forget about fighterz XD

[@Typical_Tyeus]

FighterZ in particular really enables its playerbase to do dumb shit in really clever ways.

[@zilkiffalali3113]

He was at the top because he abused the lack of a punishment for rage quitting dude

[@Typical_Tyeus]

@@zilkiffalali3113 Then I'll correct the comment

[@clarinetmaster5990]

Yeah ppl that play fighterz are generally more unga bunga yolo, myself included.

[@PathBeyondTheDark]

@@zilkiffalali3113 Still rewards a style of play called rps (rock-paper-scissors). Basically, the best guesser is the one most rewarded. At mid-level play and lower (where most online players are atm) it also rewards just choosing an option and getting lucky you picked the right option and getting a 50-60% health combo off of it, not even having to be good at reads. This makes more players competitive without having to really learn much about the game outside a few combos.

[@Typical_Tyeus]

@@PathBeyondTheDark I really enjoy RPS conceptually for how welcoming the game can be but in alot of contexts it just allows people to win against others without having put half the effort into learning the game as their opponent might have. Add in really accessible characters like Ultra Ignoramus Goku and the game can, at times, fail to reward legacy skill as much I'd prefer a fighting game to do. Because the IP in question is of course Dragon Ball, the designers wanted to capture that back and forth action the series in commonly known for. In alot of ways, I think the game represents what Dragon Ball is at it's absolute best and worst moments.

[@maremare9366]

I dont like that you fight the same against every character, that is true, but dont forget that there is a lot to like about DBFZ. If the game had good netcode it would be in a very good spot for me.

[@LordKnightfgc]

Yeah, there is a bunch of good things about DBFZ for sure. Likeable IP, well balanced overall, interesting take on neutral, very easy to pick up while still having a lot of depth, I can go on and on. Not sure if I said in the video, but every fg will have some problems, it's the nature of the genre. It's just commentary on what I think the path is right now. Old games are romanticized too, and they are far from perfect.

[@maremare9366]

@@LordKnightfgc Thanks for the reply man, keep on entertaining us as long as you're having fun as well :D.

[@MarcelVincent]

I loved this video alot.. As some one who grew up with the fighting Games of the 90s I find dragon dragon ball very restricted. I feel I can't play footsies or win with proper spaced normals. Its been hard for me to take my gameplay style and apply it to this game.. Mind you I only been playing ranked 100 hours that not enough time to learn how I want to play..I just hit ssj3 rank I dont like super dash + assist i find that way of playing boring.. Maybe I should try gran blue?.?

[@just4real72]

This video is fucking godlike let’s fucking go LK, secure this bag

[@borederlands5387]

How do you feel uni fits in with being dev ordained or more player driven? I think it fits the critiques you have about modern fighters

[@yoyochan6668]

While I agree that devs can be too heavy handed, I do like the fact that some situations are created that you have to keep fighting through and they build you up that way. Rather than studying you get better from being put into situations. Not everyone has time to study the game and it rewards players for playing. I still think there should be room for labing tho and everyone shouldnt have the same combos that shit wack

[@jdrmanmusiqking]

Lol has this dude never watched Dragon ball? Size has zero to do with speed its mostly tied to power level (until Super destroyed eveything). All of them fly and fight at supersonic speeds... Also GG's different wake-up shenanigans is the fakest "depth" i've ever seen in a fighting game [see end of comment for alternative]. Its like Ninja Gaiden aka cheap hard. Or like memorizing vocab for spanish class instead of actually learning the language. Having to memorize everyone's wake-up isnt testing fighting skill it just tests your own attrition levels and takes more mental resources away from the player vs player battle. Now SF5 could use that wake up system perfectly since its kinda basic to the point where the knockdown mix-up is literally the entire game. The more i think about it, having different wake-ups for each character in SF5 specifically would work wonders. However, GG has like a trillion things going on already so having an unnecessarily tedious mechanic like character specific wake-up timings just seems like an elitist flex tbh Now a legit solution to this would be to model more wake-ups after Smash Attacks in Smash Bros. Not the SSB wake up as i dont think staying on the floor infinitely would work in other fighters but hey who knows. All characters have the same max charge time on their smash attacks but the mixup is WHEN they release it. Thats how alot more wake-ups in Fighting games should be. For some reason every game with delayed wake-ups have the standard "Normal, Quick, and Delayed" wake-ups which is only 3 timings instead of being to wake up anytime u want to within a given time period. This fix would place the wake-ups entirely within a player's control so we can have that good ol player vs player interaction not player vs character...

[@LordKnightfgc]

Dragon ball literally lets you wake up when you want, it has a 30f variable wake up window.

[@jdrmanmusiqking]

@@LordKnightfgc Nice more fighters need to do this. Still dont change the fact that ya clearly never watched dragonball! Did u see the OG Broly movie? Or Watch Nappa, Transformed Garlic Jr, Racoom, and all the other big bodies in dragonball they are lightning fast. Of course they'll all get up quickly lol in the game.

[@jdrmanmusiqking]

@@LordKnightfgc Also 30f variance isnt nearly what i meant tho. A 90-120f window will allow for many more unique interactions

[@tyb3r695]

Lord knight with the sajam transitions lol

[@Strider0167]

Mortal kombat is the 101 for all that is wrong with fighters nowadays.

[@tomcrawley3343]

As someone new to fighting games, Mortal Kombat feels very accessible and easy to get into. But even I can tell that MK11 just isn't deep enough. That, and Fatal Blows and Krushing Blows are awful, noob-friendly mechanics that have a really low risk and high reward.

[@Strider0167]

@@tomcrawley3343 very true. At least it's a decent fighter to get you started in what is a steep learning curve for other competitive fighters. Especially like 360-ps3 era fighters.

[@capefeather]

I also feel like resources on newer games are ironically scarcer, harder to find, and more prone to errors. Maybe because there's less to know, it's easier to assume that everyone just "knows".

[@jaggedsigns3O11]

I think its so dumb how strong and safe superdash is. If you are actively looking for the opponent to superdash that means you are on the ground, and if you are on the ground that means you're losing the game because the opponent has you locked down mentally or they could easily lock you down with an assist. so the counter to this braindead strategy is to have Go1 reaction time in the air and jab it. or be on the ground at disadvantage hoping they do it and even when u down heavy IT WHIFS HALF THE TIME. how many times have you seen someone superdash at you while your down heavy animation is playing. I've learned to live with it but god damn new players will hate this and it was put there for them.

[@Professorfrenchfry]

To be fair, in the Dragonball universe big doesnt mean slow. Jiren is the fastest character in the game besides UI Goku and maybe Beerus. So I like everyone moving fast.

[@highvian]

Tbf, kinda is, but i get what you re saying

[@Professorfrenchfry]

@@highvian ?

[@neonknight5857]

I totally agree about ALL THAT VAGUE SHIT we like to talk about in fighting games getting kinda shit on by every hit leading to a combo. Feels a lot less intimate and subtle to me. Less focused, more swingy and random feeling. To be honest, getting clipped by satan's toenail for half my life into a dank oki setup into gg is most of what turns me off about anime fighters. It takes me so long to learn how to not get hit by and counter every errant hitbox, and it feels like every mistake leads to waiting for 30 seconds before I can play again, now with a wall situation. I get wanting to patch out degenerate shit and jank. Limiting the way a tool can be used is a kick in the pants though.

[@prismshock]

I think making every hit convert into full damage/oki makes brings players in for one season, but it gets old fast. Rigid system mechanics can be a turn off for high level play, but it's hard to gaurantee the game won't be bunk without starting with them and then slowly opening the game up. Games like MvC2 were a mistake lol, that could have easily been too broken. Oki is very toxic for new players. Friends that I have that played street fighter 2 can put up a fight even though I play 5 a lot. Once you play some of the newer games where you can roll up on someone and hit 3 medium buttons in a row on their wakeup, it sucks the fun out of it for casual players. I wonder how a completely fluid wakeup system like Tekken could benefit 2d games. There would need to be some reactable OTG scenarios of course.

[@cobaltghost34]

LK with the reads you spittin I believe you

[@ZeroGarz]

Bro I think it'd be good with your cam being fullscreen instead of the background there

[@murlough2611]

I feel like varying get up speeds is a tedious mechanic. I don't disagree that it creates another layer to the game but I feel like there are better ways to give a game a higher skill ceiling than that. I don't think people SHOULD have to study 30 characters get up speeds. I think another example of this I dislike a lot is Tekken's "you gotta dash to the left for this move" stuff is necessary. From my perspective, someone who is fairly new to the FGC, it seems like these sort of mechanics aren't "skillful" so much as they are a time sink you have to deal with and thats just not appealing to me. Tekken is one of the most beautiful and interesting fighting games but I'm never getting into it because of the years I'd need to put in to feel like I'm battling my opponent and not my own lack of knowledge.

[@dj_koen1265]

Very insightful

Is this another video from DARK LK?

[@LordKnightfgc]

Nah, you would know.

@@LordKnightfgc I lowkey wanted it to be another Dark LK review but the content was still good as always.

[@roxassalvatore3105]

But NGL when ui first came out I was a noob and ui closed the skill gap between me and my friends who actually play 😂😂 and broly to

[@mickeybat5816]

Idk if this is only a modern fighting game problem but I kinda hate the fact you can't learn against fighters you have never paid for. Like, DBF. I don't want roshi or UI goku or z broly. BUT if I want to learn how to fight them, then I gotta spend money on a character I'm never going to play. If the characters were free to practice with then it wouldn't be such a problem and I'd still be playing the game, but I don't for that specific reason. You could leave a game for a few months and start losing which is fine you aren't as good as you used to be BUT in order to catch up and adjust to certain things like new characters that are being used nowadays. You gotta pay, and to me that doesn't seem cool yk? It's not pay to win I'm saying it's more pay to learn.

[@spreadlove8946]

In what way is mbuu jump different?

[@LordKnightfgc]

He's floats more than other characters.

[@spreadlove8946]

@@LordKnightfgc thanks for answering just tested it to see for myself kinda crazy i didnt notice all this time

[@GSen45]

i still fuckin suck at left side dp input on hitbox

[@skywalker1217]

Yo LK i been doing better with my new team kid buu kefla UI hit ssj god today hyped

[@hatchell18]

Hey Lordknight! I love your videos bro!😁 I am curious though, do you ever plan on uploading in 1080p?

[@BDDterror]

I agree they are almost forcing u to play this way

[@novalight2834]

What???? I’m so confused. I thought that guy had all the right answers. Who do I trust now

[@lowtieryick9300]

To be fair, you do have to half circle to do a DCH.

[@PikUpYourPantsPatrol]

Comeback mechanics and juggles are the problem imo. Movement and doing basic moves should be just that, basic, combos should be harder but not super hard. Why is the act of even moving so convolouted in Tekken? Like go away. And combos should be shorter. Juggling is the dumbest thing ever. You got the first hit and are good at combos so I lose 30-100% health. That's just dumb. Even if you have meter. More of a focus on neutral is better. Not who lands their OP combo first, shorter combos are the way to go. Comeback mechanics are obvious. They're fine as a concept but they just make them too much. It's not uncommon to be considerably ahead but lose because someone used a comeback mechanic.

[@DragoonCenten]

Depends heavily on the specific game being spoken about and cannot accurately adjust the genre as a whole.

[@lukejones7164]

Your complaints are stupid lol. Juggle combos are no different from regular combos they amount to the same thing. Shorter combos are a bad idea for most games because it leads to slower stagnant matches with more timeouts. More focus on Neutral is NOT the way to go. Easy combos dumb down games and lead to balance issues. Combos are hard as a skill check and balance feature. Movement is hard in Tekken because every major step is a critical decision, you can't just mindlessly move around in that game. Easier movement would dumb down the game. You sound like someone who likes many of the awful changes made in Strive

[@PikUpYourPantsPatrol]

@@lukejones7164 taking 50-100% health cause you landed the first hit is bad game design. TODs are cool in concept alone

[@lukejones7164]

@@PikUpYourPantsPatrol There's very few games where you can land a 40%+ combo off the first hit, and the ones that have them die within a year of release. So that's a pointless complaint. You sound like someone who wants a game where you aren't punished for making bad decisions, that's usually what players who complain about combos tend to be lol.

[@PikUpYourPantsPatrol]

@@lukejones7164 Are you serious? I'm terrible at the game. But sd, wallbounce, dr, and assists makes it easy to land that much damage or close to it

[@techno-eh1dt]

this is crazy interesting

[@PikaPower131313]

I'm sorry but I never play 2D fighters because I just don't have the time to pick up a book to learn the game. I just can't find time to play anything where I need to learn and memorize buttons.. However, that's just me. But it's also the whole reason why the fgc genre has trouble getting new players. I think that is why Smash has so much appeal tho, it can be pick up and play. I dont know if thats possible for traditional fighters, but who knows.

[@PathBeyondTheDark]

The video starts off by saying that simplified inputs are not a problem, other things are. So I'm not sure why this comment is here.

[@rachetmarvel931]

@@PathBeyondTheDark Uhm,the guy is making good points,and he has not mentioned anything about simpling inputs,so maybe you and the content creator, should learn how to comprehend, before replying.

[@PathBeyondTheDark]

@@rachetmarvel931 "I just can't find time to play anything where I need to learn and *memorize buttons..."* You don't need to memorize simple buttons and LK says simple buttons are not an issue. If he means memorize combos... um, it isn't a fighting game without them so... my statement still stands... *why is this here?* He is basically saying *I can't be bothered with fighting games* if he doesn't want to learn combos. Even Smash has combos.

[@JDemry]

Congratulations on being invited to the national championships.

[@kevingriffith6011]

I haven't played Guilty Gear, so I don't know exactly the level of complexity that per-character variable wake-up speeds adds, but I feel like that is a sort of uninteractive complexity that we can afford to lose. By lightening the load of per-matchup learning you can increase the complexity of the systems as a whole, more varieties of universal knockdown, more combo routes, etc. Maybe I'm overestimating their impact, this is from someone outside looking in after all, but I just think it's better overall to have fewer things that are only decided by the character select screen.

[@Genoh_]

Your argument doesn't really hold when we have people playing Smash Ult competitively. That's 80+ matchups, and there's new players getting into it competitively every day. EDIT: sorry not 80+ matchups, 80+ characters, which is roughly around 3000 matchups

[@kevingriffith6011]

@@Genoh_ I don't see how that disproves my argument of being able to afford to lose that kind of complexity, but I understand what you're getting at. Just because something is harder to learn doesn't mean that it's going to be less popular. People *can* learn matchups and it's not difficult, I'm just of the mind that it's uninteractive complexity. The only thing one of the players did was pick a character on the character select screen, but that's all it takes for the other player to have to fully reconsider their combo routes. This is coming from a long time player of street fighter, skullgirls, dragonball and TFH, none of which have variable knockdown, so again I don't have much ground to work with. I plan on getting into guilty gear eventually, but I'm waiting on Strive before I do.

[@Genoh_]

@@kevingriffith6011 after rereading your first comment, I actually understand what you're saying now, and I agree. There are things like having to do a different combo because a character is a lightweight vs a mediumweight, stuff like that isn't great.

[@pikachuattack542]

What about BlazBlue?

[@NajarinPrime]

I appreciate the granblue love lol

[@akiranightfury9319]

I agree that a lot of the new fighting games are taking away 'neat' aspects of old fighting games, but my argument is that we need to dumb this shit down. If we want the FGC to grow we need to make games accessible. DBFZ is a great example for both players and spectators to see what is going on and be able to do these things themselves. Double whole circle inputs need to die, I hope fighting games follow this trend

[@austindean9288]

I disagree that "dumbing" a game down is the future for people to get into a game. I think there need to be options to create your individual style into games. I believe that Guilty Gear is a great example of that, and its one of the hardest fighting games out. A large part of a fighting game's charm is how it looks to watch. People can't fight but they enjoy watching UFC, kinda like that.

[@joaodocaminhao1022]

I understand the feeling of making game more accessible, but having the whole rooster with the same bnbs, and removing motions are not the right way. Take sfv for example, u have characters with one button dps and that's ok, if u are new u can start from there and growth. But the execution have to mean something. Ppl need to understand that it's ok to do a less damaging combo because they can't cancel into a double quarter circle motion YET.

[@TheMasterBlaze]

There is a way to make a game accessible without dumbing it down. See Smash and Granblue Fantasy.

[@Genoh_]

I think that we can exist in a world where both can coexist. Take Ed in SFV for example. But on the other hand, making fighting game inputs easier doesn't attract new players. Again, look at Ed in SFV. Capcom thought "hey people will want to try SFV because we added a simple character!" But the reality is that it didn't attract many, if at all. You want to know what attracts players? Shit that looks sick as hell. Why do you think evo moment 37 is one the most popular fighting game pieces of media out there? People watch it and think "I want to do that!" I believe that instead of dumbing things down, we as a community should be advertising the value of being intrinsically motivated to learn and get better. But the thing is, that just isn't what mainstream gamers want. Just look at Alatreon and Fatalis in Monster Hunter World. Mainstream gamers *hated* that they had to change their builds for alatreon, and had to git gud to beat Fatalis. Realistically, if fighting games want to grow, they should have extrinsic rewards to motivate you to get better intrinsically. Take, for example, a battlepass system with daily missions that are something like "Do 10 dragon punches" or "Land 10 command grabs as a grappler" or things like this that help you get better as a player without you realizing it. Simply put, we need to have ways of making learning fun, that doesn't involve getting your ass handed to you by people online and watching the replays.

[@therealsayain4455]

Honestly dragon ball is the hardest fighting game to play

[@yewwowduck]

gt goku is 4'11? lol It's more like 3-4

[@Alter_Ego_V1.1037]

Watching pro Fighterz for me is just so boring, oh boy I wonder which Kid Buu is gonna high/low the other one with GT Goku A assist. Guilty Gear imo is real good about giving characters ideal purposes and scenarios to get themselves in while keeping the gameplan open ended. I wish Undernight was more popular cause I think it's also a stand out fighter with mechanical depth.