The Anti-Persuasive Rhetoric of Socrates’ Apology (Nietzsche Podcast #75)

[@gingerbreadzak]

00:01 🤔 Socrates valued demonstrating his domination of fear and weakness, even in death. 00:42 🧐 Socrates is seen as the last exemplar of ancient sages who conquered instincts through wisdom. 02:46 😯 Socrates was criticized by Nietzsche, but his death was admired for his commitment to truth and virtue. 07:23 💭 Nietzsche's criticism of Socrates is complex and evolves over time, reflecting multiple perspectives. 18:06 🏛 Socrates was charged with impiety in ancient Athens, which was a serious crime, but Nietzsche and Socrates argued it was due to personal animosity and not ideological conflict. 22:38 📜 Socrates' defense in the Apology shows that he was accused not for his ideology but for his method, which was perceived as meddling and teaching others to make weaker arguments stronger. 24:16 🏛 To the average person in ancient Greece, Socrates was indistinguishable from the sophists, although he strongly opposed them. The distinction was more relevant to Socrates than the public. 30:09 🧙 Socrates defended himself by explaining that he was considered the wisest by the Oracle of Delphi because he recognized his own ignorance, unlike others who claimed wisdom. 35:36 📜 Socrates tested poets, craftsmen, and orators but found that they often believed themselves wise in many things, exposing their lack of wisdom. 38:18 🙏 Socrates argued that his devotion to the Delphic god demonstrated his piety, as he was willing to endure public hatred for honoring the god's wisdom. 43:02 🗣 Socrates used irony in his defense, suggesting he lacked oratory skills but employing rhetoric effectively throughout his speech, which could have put Athenians on guard. Irony was associated with deception and cleverness in ancient Greece. 44:27 🤔 Socrates uses rhetoric unconventionally, going against its usual persuasive nature. 46:40 🚫 Socrates catches his accuser in a contradiction regarding impiety and corrupting the youth charges. 48:32 🐴 Socrates employs a reduction to absurdity to challenge the claim that he corrupts the youth. 50:22 💡 Socrates demonstrates intellectual dominance in the trial, despite knowing it fuels hatred against him. 53:10 🤯 Socrates describes a divine voice preventing him from unjust actions and demonstrates overcoming the fear of death. 57:00 💬 Socrates views himself as a gift from the god, helping Athenians recognize "know thyself" and overcome fear of mortality. 01:04:21 🙅‍♂ Socrates rejects a modest fine as a counter penalty and insists on his commitment to his philosophy and the city. 01:05:02 🏆 Socrates suggests that his penalty should be public subsistence, similar to Olympic victors, as he believes he has educated the city in wisdom and virtue. 01:06:39 🧐 Socrates is sentenced to death despite the opportunity for a lesser penalty, revealing human nature driven by resentment. 01:07:08 🤨 Socrates employs layers of irony and rhetorical brilliance that seemingly turn falsehood into truth in his defense. 01:09:30 😇 Socrates accepts his impending death with enthusiasm, believing it to be a release from worldly affairs and not an evil for a good man. 01:10:49 🤔 Socrates expresses no anger toward his accusers and asks that his sons be punished if they do not prioritize virtue, embracing the uncertainty of whether life or death is better.

[@lewiswarburton1224]

Just discovered this channel, and just wanted to say thank you. With other channels I’ve listened to that are about Nietzsche, I’ve had the feeling of ‘waiting for the other shoe to drop’; waiting for the moment at which I can see the KZbinrs personal agenda twisting her reading of Nietzsche. With your channel I feel you are dedicated to a clear eyed unbiased explication of his philosophy, and I have already learnt so much.

[@piaraskelly1038]

Your take on Nietzsche's take on Socrates is excellent!

[@Jimmy-el2gh]

It's after midnight and Thanksgiving has passed into early Friday morning. Drinking a pintt of crown and listening to this philosophical analysis is absolutely the most intellectually stimulating conversation ive had in awhile. Yes I am in silent conversation with the narrator and narrative...lol

[@novitrix9671]

I personally find it despicable how the will of elite authority was to not only wield its power unjustly. But also expected Socrates to effectively quail and plead for mercy which he didn't care for. Almost as if he was cheating and going off script by not succumbing to their pressures. They really must've been dismayed finding they could only destroy him physically and not spiritual. "You dare challenge the merits, bounds and security to our authority, we'll show you who's boss and you better act meekly around us or else!" - Swine

[@user-ej1dh3hb6l]

Reminds me of the story of Jesus.

[@XanDionysus]

The wisdom of Socrates was indeed great, By showing his opponents argued in bad faith, But his prize was their resentment and hate, And forced to drink poison to seal his fate.

[@ummon995]

Another banger. Well-structured and concise. It's such a complicated relationship Nietzsche had with Socrates, although it works to shed a lot of light on Nietzsche's own philosophical developments (your talk of early vs. late Nietzsche, for example). Pre-Platonic as opposed to Pre-Socratic (edited): I've never read his lecture but I think I should because this term has been a personal gadfly. Is it because Plato was the first to sort of introduce Truth as a metaphysical absolute whereas those preceding him were less concerned with this approach? I'm just trying to get a clear understanding. Any substantial feedback would be appreciated. Edit (response): After digging a bit I think I’ve found an answer. Nietzsche used the term Pre-Platonic because he saw a “mix” of previous philosophies (namely Heraclitus and Parmenides) in Plato’s philosophy while those before had chiefly one substance defining theirs.

[@francpez7564]

What do you mean by metaphysics?

[@liltick102]

There aren’t enough video’s on rhetoric, logic & controversy - it’s such a fascinating basis for learning but one that seems only flown-by here and there by youtube channels.

[@brendanerickson2363]

Love this podcast so much! You’re a gem! 💎

[@tomato1040]

Of all things Noble and true it's really about🗣️🎶music 🎺, poetry📖, & 🩰 dance over the ancient Greek idea of poetry 📝& drama 🎭 as Pythagoras knew with Hercules, it's either 12 tones or 12 labors. A Worrier⚔️Warrior🪖is no musician🎸!

[@ggrthemostgodless8713]

21:00 It wasn't "Socrates as a person" that did him in, it was as you mentioned just prior, himself that refuse to SAVE himself, and it was mainly that to "corrupt" the youth of ANY place is to lose a lot of the political power prevailing at the moment. Those youths, which are always the minority, become POLITICALLY dangerous, and I imagine it was much more so in those times.

[@ZagreusoftheDesert]

I happened to have just reread this

[@ggrthemostgodless8713]

in Which book is it written??

[@ZagreusoftheDesert]

@@ggrthemostgodless8713the crito and the apology are the main ones easy and short

[@ggrthemostgodless8713]

@@ZagreusoftheDesert Ok... you can also rad what Nietzsche said about this man in Twilight of the Idols, in the first few pages.

[@westonsmith1271]

Thanks!

[@untimelyreflections]

Thank you!

[@cheri238]

Fortunately, Socrates did devote himself to the study of how far fleas could jump. Nor did he think much about the weather or how high the pyramids were. He examined how to lead a good and happy life.

[@bradrandel1408]

Bravo more please please set up a three day retreat for your community. I will travel. 🕊🦋🌹 I will personally contribute to your work when we pass the basket …

[@ArtDuomo]

love Art

[@supergamesgaming5677]

Hey just wanted to ask, since you talk a lot about Sophistry have you read "the encomium of Helen"?

[@ozlemdenli7763]

thank you

[@alexanderleuchte5132]

I just recently stumbled on the "inner monologue" debate and research i bet some people would argue Sokrates' daimon was his inner monologue

[@ritafonseca1338]

Totally unrelated but have you ever read anything by Ulysse Carriere? I wonder what you´d have to say about their works.

[@drgordo112]

Thanks for another great video. It inspires me to work on my own channel. I'm up to 143 subs!

[@gus8310]

The will of life is to overcome itself, it is a never ending cycle of desire, satiation and once again to desire. I see it now with addiction in the world. We fail to see the fundamental will of life is this cycle; phenomena exist to gain more for themselves, just as gravity wishes to seek more and more mass, it is never satiated. Addiction is becoming more widespread because it is this inherent desire all living things have; and the addiction in the world is this will manifested in the easy access of the desire we seek. It is not the drugs nor any of the behaviours. We are the addiction. How does one overcome this? Any will that wearies of this desire has begun it’s decent into weakness, as it no longer wishes to seek more for itself and become more, it gives up. We overcome this weakness in us by creating a desire we can never fulfil; that is what religion done for us, it gave us a will we can only achieve once we have passed on. But now we are losing this goal that once held us to the sun; we now wander this deep space with no tether. We must create one, one that exists in this world, one we can all see for ourselves and not something in another plane of existence. There is a human that is so much greater than any human that has ever existed, they are so far in the future and we can bring them forth. Let us strive to bring forth this new generation. Let us plant seeds that may grow into beautiful flowers, and shine upon the earth. That is the goal I give you. Seek more life for yourself, feel your strength in this world, and love it. If you treat your body poorly, your will shall be weakened. You will become weary of this life and give up on it, you will cease to feel your strength in this world. We are happy when we feel our strength over this world, we see ourselves overcoming and becoming something newer. We feel weak when the opposite ensues; when we eat poorly, when we are letting ourselves down, when we lose that glimmer in our eye and that profound heaviness creeps on our chest. Let this be your antipode, and begin your going under.

[@laika6202]

You just helped me so much

[@ggrthemostgodless8713]

It happens in every generation, we say, ""There is a human so much better than us POSSIBLE; and we must plant seeds of many different things to make that FUTURE human flourish"". But humans have been passing the ball forward for centuries.. It reminds me, mockingly, of the mother that wastes her life, in doing bs things, and frivolous things, until it is too late, her life is gone, she is older...Then has children, and wants HER children to do all she should have done, living vicariously though her children, pushing them, and finally "breaking" them and so the cycle repeats... Could Nietzsche have been other than Nietzsche?? Get it?? That mom could be or make that "higher" human either. This aspiration of a higher human, is in contradiction of the facts of human instincts, and what has been in fact demonstrated in history. The great majority of humans are never like we want them to be, or could be, no higher than average, and hardly above the animals, bread and circus all the way, all there lives!! Football and NASCAR and beer and barbecue, no one reads, in general. Why are the mayoralty of humans NOT of higher caliber?? Because it CANNOT BE, it si not in them, in us maybe; and yet we must keep that flame alive, that HOPE, false as all the evidence tells us it is, so as to do what Nietzsche demanded of life, :To say a big YES to it"; but there is really no basis for expecting, really, that future great human to be the norm, the Hyperboreans, will always be the minority. That hope for the philosopher king is hallow, I cannot se it happening, and if one shows up the mob will kill him, like we have killed many great men of yore... the majority SAYS they want those men, but as soon as they show up the majority in politics does away with them.

[@andrewmueller9986]

I think his apology was weak because he totally accepting of death at that point.

[@andrewmueller9986]

Was

[@martinrea8548]

First ✌️