The BEAUTY of Catholicism w/ Michael Knowles

Full Episode: • Conservatism, Catholic...
Michael Knowles explains the important role respectful liturgy had in his conversion to the Catholic faith, and how the Novus Ordo brought with it a flood of unfortunate liturgical abuses.
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[@rosea2350]

As a Protestant I respect Catholics because growing up poor they fed us. ❤

[@JamesColvent]

Your ancestors were all Catholics, it’s time for you to Come home.

[@carlospacheco7361]

You are the only one, every other protestant hates us and enjoy insulting us and our church, those "christians" love everybody but Catholics.

[@kristianrodriguez4676]

⁠@@JamesColventWhy should I. Catholicism has always been appealing to me I just don’t know where the heck they got many of their teachings and find no reason to believe in it. Although I’ve been trying to find a reason. I’m very attracted to the Catholic Church.

[@JamesColvent]

@@kristianrodriguez4676 they got their teaching from the person who founded the church, Jesus 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@kristianrodriguez4676]

@@JamesColvent I don’t remember Jesus teaching that Mary never sinned or that we should pray for the souls in purgatory.

[@aborgeshonorato]

I can't wait to be baptized Catholic. Pray for me.🙏 Traditional Mass and Rosary are precious.

[@nickihey8618]

Two favorite lines from this video! “If you get rid of tradition, you inevitably create new ones.” “Every space that you are in will either slightly elevate or slightly depress your spirits.” 8:03

[@richarddunn9286]

the comments on architecture are so spot on. Finally someone articulated what I've been thinking for years

[@holysmoke3201]

Me too! I think beauty definitely goes deeper than what we give credit for - marxists despise beauty and out came modern "art" and bauhaus architecture!! Yet old cathedrals and basilicas are still as beautiful and awe inspiring as ever whereas bauhaus commie architecture is depressing and gets uglier and more depressing over time.

[@croatiangambler8059]

When I went looking for a church my slavic father told me look into catholicism they have better churches. Always stuck with me

[@joet7580]

Try reading Tom Wolfe’s “from Bauhaus to our house”. It’s a lot of fun and lays this problem out pretty well

[@petepistola9546]

Except they weren't built by Catholics they were inherited by them. There's a difference there's no proof that supports the Catholics built those cathedrals.

[@commercialrealestatephilos605]

Shia was spot on: most no masses feel like they’re trying to sell you something just like the Protestant rock concerts.

[@CalvinGomes]

Never felt that in all the masses I've gone to. It's the fringe left ones to beware of. But then, it's thr celebrant that is the problem, not the mass.

[@florida8953]

Thanks fully it’s not the feelings you get in mass or the liturgy or Eucharist that saves you, but your trust in Christ alone and not trusting at all in your own or anyone else’s merits.

[@commercialrealestatephilos605]

@@CalvinGomes I attend a reverent NO mass most of the time. However, there is an obvious difference between TLM and the NO. For a time, for various misguided reasons, I attended a mega church. After attending the NO, TLM and a mega church I could see how the NO was designed to attract Protestants. Noble attempt, however, we lost much in terms of reverence and it was a mistake ordering the mass around the people instead of worship of God.

[@commercialrealestatephilos605]

@@florida8953 belief in the body and blood of Christ, that it is not a symbol is the foundation of Catholicism. Once I finally realized this (much like Francis Chan) I ceased to protest against the issues I had at our ultra liberal parish/diocese. That said, it’s demonstrably true that the liturgy can support or detract from that central/foundational belief. Cheesy Catholic attempts to mimic Protestant mega churches does not support belief in the body and blood of Christ.

[@brendonpremkumar8207]

Nah the rock concerts came from Pentecostalism and slowly infiltrated into other branches of Protestantism. But most Protestants such as Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Methodists, and even some Baptists all follow liturgical patterns of worship.

[@kiryu-chan577]

I love all Masses as long as I get the Eucharist. I love it from start to finish even if the Priest is from Mexico and doesn't speak English well and is trying to fill in for English Mass. Singing in Latin is perfect worship. I even have my Protestant sister listening to Latin chanting now. 😇

[@florida8953]

And you understand what it says? Lol

[@jt_schell]

Deo gratias

[@kiryu-chan577]

@@florida8953 Listen with the Spirit God gave you.

[@andrewburch3694]

@@florida8953 Bilingual hand missals are easy to find these days. And if you attend the Traditional Latin Mass frequently, you’ll eventually understand the unchanging parts of the Mass (Kyrie, Gloria, etc.) even without the aid of a hand missal. Latin is not an insurmountable obstacle to understanding.

[@KH-vp4ni]

@@florida8953 🙄🙄

[@southpawhammer8644]

I'm a recent revert, I started at a parish I thought was reverent. At least it was head and shoulders what I grew up in, now I found a reverent Novus ordo, which I love. And sometimes I drive down to the diocese of Detroit for the TLM mass and love that too.

[@leechrec]

Tbh, Catholicism is incredibly practical for our modern life. It doesn't require or compel people to pray 5 times a day, to fast for such a long period, to wear particular clothing, doesn't prohibit eating certain foods, etc. It doesn't try to be so hardcore but it also is an open community that warmly receives and embraces those who want to be part of it. Some folks disparage Catholicism, but there's so much good that comes out of it.

[@Rob_Smoke]

So true.

[@Patrick_919]

I was lucky to find a Byzantine Catholic church near me. The liturgy felt... proper. It's reverent and highly participatory. I could never go back to a novus ordo after my first visit there.

[@SwordsmanRyan]

I know a Catholic parish which lost one of their priests to the Byzantine Catholics. He always celebrated a reverent NO but the bishop forbade TLM.

[@tannerrichards8287]

I don’t have the luxury of having a Byzantine liturgy near me, closest one is about an hour and a half away from me and only do a Divine Liturgy once a month, but I go to TLM on Sunday’s and holy days, but there’s a NO parish that’s apart of another parish that offers the traditional mass and I go there for daily mass and almost everybody receives Christ kneeling and on the tongue, and don’t do the stupid sign of peace.

[@playfuldolly]

I personally like both NO and TLM masses. Both are different experiences and both are reverent to God. You don’t have to put one down in order to enjoy the other.

[@Faustina87]

Thank you!

[@jolins.9523]

As long as the NO is reverent and full of ancient tradition then absolutely.

[@nathanmichelson5156]

I am an Orthodox catachumen, but I have tremendous respect for the two of you, and enjoyed listening to your conversation. Looking forward to watching the full episode.

[@bradleytarr2482]

The Liturgy at my local Parish is very Folk-ish, and Secular Self Help-ish, on Saturday Vigil. But very Reverent, Solemn, Sober, and Sacred, on Sunday Morning. Attendance at the Sunday Mass is about 4-5X more than the Saturday Mass. And the average age is about 30 years younger. And even the Homily is better on Sunday, even though it is delivered by the same Priest.

[@Spiritof76Catholic]

Traditionis custodes made me a Latin Mass advocate. It has opened my eyes to the shortcomings of the Bugnini Novus Ordo which I believe can be reformed. We seem to be seeing it happening with certain word changes and the more widespread use of incensing the alter, etc. I have emailed the AB and B about fixing the NO several times but have never received a response. I still go the Bugnini form but it’s difficult sometimes.

[@BringJoyNow]

I agree that the Latin mass is astonishing and beautiful, but the modern mass has something more that corrected it and enhanced it. Surely one thing is too add back the beauty of reverence of the Latin style, but without trying to make the Mass an object but something we are immerse into in love as dialogue. The Church will hear this day by day call from the bottom, and then we will see

[@leonardobeneventi8836]

Stop calling it “bugini novus ordo” or “bugini form”. Absolutely cringe.

[@Spiritof76Catholic]

@@leonardobeneventi8836Yes. You’re probably right. Those raised on the NO have no concept just how devastating to the faithful eliminating Latin Mass was. In one night the liturgy we loved and had grown up on in Latin and the sacred music was gone. The NO went against everything we had ever been taught about loving Jesus Christ in the Eucharist and the “Holy Sacrifice of the Mass” and our priests. Altars, tabernacles, communion rails statues, sacred wall art was stripped from most church sanctuaries. It was devastating. The church hierarchy even scapegoated the faithful and made us the problem. We were told either accept the NO or get out and millions did. The church has never recovered and may never recover.

[@leonardobeneventi8836]

@@Spiritof76Catholic I agree with everything you said. I wish tradition was still here but you make it sound like the NO is not of Catholicism and not valid.

[@Spiritof76Catholic]

@@leonardobeneventi8836 You’re wrong. I never said or inferred that the NO was invalid.

[@Bella_Love_123]

Great clip!

[@ConstantiaVerted]

great vid, thanks.

[@jimmcginleysmith9874]

Great talk on the loss of traditional ritual; bring 'em back!!

[@JESUSSavesWAKEUP]

I’ll start to think that cigars are part of the catechism

[@glennlanham6309]

Just ask Chesterton

[@johncopper5128]

Thank you.

[@WJKaplan]

Hey matt! Please bring in Dr Pitre. Greetings from Sweden🙏

[@Schwaaaang]

I think more than anything, this conversation solidified my growing inability to head into any direction but architecture

[@imbonnie]

Ah, two of my favorite people in one podcast!

[@brendawg8002]

Couldn't agree more re the gift offerings in Ireland... pretty naff! I remember you from the classes you did in the old chapel in Gweedore, congrats on all your success Matt!

[@carolkoh298]

I grew up post-Vatican II and have only recently learned about the TLM and how different it is from what I am familiar with. While I begin to appreciate the arguments for TLM, I do dislike how some TLM Roman Catholics have taken to make fun of their fellow Novus Ordo Roman Catholics. You can state what you think is not proper but, like what another contributor mentioned, don't be elitist about it... and make fun of us. Granted, I have seen abuses of the liturgy where priests sing non-spiritual songs or invite performances that are not part of the liturgy but these are not the norm. And I do hope to attend a TLM one day.

[@kyler9323]

Not to engage in whataboutism, but just to point out that people seem to like what they attend and are a bit tribalist, there are plenty of NO Catholics who think those who attend TLM are basically schismatic or pruddish or antiquated etc. There are also both those Catholics who attend the NO and those who attend the TLM who think the Eastern Catholics are a bit odd and vice versa. People tend to think others are a bit "off". I think it is ok or at least forgivable to a certain extent, but yes, it is a tendency we need to avoid when possible.

[@Spiritof76Catholic]

Treditiones custodes made me a Latin Mass advocate. That said in my humble opinion Tc is heavy handed and the wrong way to do things. The reform of the Latin Mass gave us the Novus Ordo which did not accomplish what it was supposed to do. It, the NO needs to be fixed. Check out how one parish, St John Cantius parish in Chicago does the NO on KZbin. May I suggest that you also watch the first two parts of The Mass of the Ages if you haven’t yet. It lays out the entire history of the NO very well. A 3rd segment will be released soon. God bless you.

[@SaintCharbelMiracleworker]

I agree. I don't know where Latin Mass or NO supremacists came from. Most TLM goers I meet are rational and just happy to attend TLM. We have 23 liturgical rites in the CC and they are ALL valid. The oldest rite which is closest to the earliest Mass is the Liturgy of St James of 33AD in Aramaic, we don't hear Melkite Catholics popping off in social media about how they have the only "true/only valid" Mass.

[@carolkoh298]

@@Spiritof76Catholic I have watched the Latin Mass at St John Cantius and some other clips explaining why and what they do at TLMs... and I do like it very much. I have also watched Fr Chris Alar explaining the NO mass and it is also very rich and by no means less reverent in my opinion. I am just put off by the holier-than-thou attitude assumed by Matt and Michael in this vid and I just couldn't finish watching it.

[@Spiritof76Catholic]

@@carolkoh298 I like both the Latin Mass and the NO if their done right. I like the way St John Cantius Parish does the NO because I think that is closer to what V2 wanted, liturgical music and a lot of Latin. My problem with the NO is that many I go to are disasters. Lots of abuses. I went to one tonight, the Saturday vigil mass and the priest allowed a woman give what turned out to be a 10 minute homily on the mass readings using the pretext she would say a few words about Advent. When communion came he sat down and relied entirely on the 8-10 extraordinary ministers to distribute the Eucharist. I never receive from anyone but a priest. Finally this priest wasn’t even dressed in vestments but something that looked like a blue nightgown and a purple overcoat gown and his collar went all around his neck like an Anglican priest? He even joked in what I thought was a sacrilegious manner about how he is dressed.

[@FreshPrince0fMiami]

It would be nice to explain what is liturgical abuse and the difference with it and reverence

[@sorin1029]

When you are prideful, arrogant, full of self, would you know it? I remember when i came to the faith in Christ, i was full of myself and never knew it in tell one day i heard a sermon along with the Holy Spirit pointing it out in my life. I finally let go of me and started focusing on what God's prerogative was and many many years later there is JOY, PEACE and a LOVE FOR/FROM GOD in me. May Gods Light Shine in your heart!

[@DanyTV79]

Liturgical abuses happened too on Tridentine mass. I think we should focus on reverence in every rite we attend.

[@SwordsmanRyan]

Bad people can corrupt anything. The NO opened the door to more abuses.

[@kiryu-chan577]

Knowles is EPIC!

[@stevenmoreno2888]

Yes Modern Churches: Silo and Barn -Walker Percy

[@BringJoyNow]

Well, I can approve the fact that I believe there is a matter of seriousness needed for sure, that is a reason why I left the Church for some years. I think that more over the building and Latin or not, that is still important as countour, the biggest problem is seriousness of the Mass. I can go to the depths of Africa and have a better Mass in the middle of the field than in a XVI Century Church in Rome.

[@elizabeth.annrose]

Omygoodness, the sling shot peace sign! Walmart vibe,...bring back tradition!

[@jamesflynn4741]

Please have Fr. Rutler on!!!! The most gifted homilist and conversationalist ever. Left smeared him not too long ago (exonerated in court) because he is faithful to Catholic teachings. Haven’t seen him since and the Church is poorer for it 🙏

[@DrunkLuna]

I need advice. I have been Episcopalian pretty much my entire life, was baptized, confirmed, and married in the Episcopal Church, but it has now gone so far left that I feel drawn to leave. I considered converting to Catholicism but my husband doesn’t want to. Should I go Anglican? Please pray for me.

[@buckaroo2973]

I really thought Michael had his bare ankles out for the entirety of this podcast. I didn't know him and Matt were so close hahhaha

[@MargaretHendricks-oi7pk]

Grinned at 1970s. I was singing in a folk mass band. :D It was the times, guys. :D LOL

[@shannyyymae]

Gen Z here and I was born and raised Catholic. But the thing is we only have Novus Ordo here, which is why I haven't experienced any other rite. I don't really hate it tho just that its true that sometimes I do not really feel the reverence, which I think depends on the priest celebrating, most of the young priests that I've attended their masses, they do chant in latin some of the prayers, have beautiful homilies and I could say are *traditional , even tho its not a TLM they're celebrating. I also started veiling since last year but yeah I do get stares and being talked about, my mom doesn't even fully support it. I don't mean to standout though (i know you guys know the reason for veiling) but I love veiling and I think it should be revived and imposed especially in the novus ordo mass. Hopefully I could attend other rites in the future. At the end of the day we all should be one, its not the best time to be divided. We brothers and sisters of the Catholic Faith should reject this spirit of division.

[@nickk4851]

What I find interesting is that more modern, especially charismatic, Catholics are often accused by more conservative and traditional Catholics of overemphasizing feelings in the practice of their faith, and yet those same traditional Catholics turn right around and lament over how the mass has been stripped of it's audial and aesthetic beauty and the feelings they can arouse in people to lift their spirits. As beautiful as elements of the TLM are, that seems inconsistent to me.

[@kyler9323]

I don't think we should be chasing feelings and making how we felt during and after prayer the basis upon which we decide if we have worshipped well or prayed well or have God's favor. I do see that in some charismatic Catholics (in all people really though, but especially there). I do think that is quite different than wanting to be surrounded by beauty not because one is chasing feelings but because beauty is both what God deserves and what is good for us. I do agree one shouldn't be "chasing" feelings, so if a traditional Catholic is doing that, he is doing it wrong. But I don't see a necessary connection between chasing after feelings and demanding beautiful worship or beautiful architecture. Being filled with wonder and awe at the transcendent (which beauty can help do for us) is different than chasing an emotion.

[@nickk4851]

@@kyler9323 That seems like trying to split hairs. The point is we desire beauty because of how it makes us feel. And the purpose of "demanding beautiful architecture" is to elicit these good feelings, lifting our spirits. We don't desire beauty at an intellectual level, i.e., "wow, look at that beautiful building, that is so good for me ... God really deserves this!". We can intellectually recognize such beauty is good, but we desire it because of it's affect on us - it's an experience that has the ability to elicit strong feelings that lift our spirits. So I would suggest there is necessarily a direct connection between beauty and feelings. A charismatic Catholic going to praise and worship, a traditional Catholic going to a beautiful church building - both are seeking to have their spirits lifted. Is one chasing feelings and the other not? Arbitrarily inserting the word "chasing" like you did in your reply merely distracts from the discussion and borders on ad hominem, if anything. Our intellect must rule the day, but feelings are part of what makes us human. They matter. And I am not saying that praise and worship is on the same level as gregorian chant, particularily when it comes to the mass, but I do think we need to take care not to have double standards.

[@kyler9323]

@@nickk4851 We don't surround ourselves with beauty in order to feel a certain way. We do so to glorify God AND to be filled with awe and wonder and more easily turn our minds to the transcendent. Any emotions that come are gravy on the top. It's not splitting hairs.

[@nickk4851]

@@kyler9323 Awe: a feeling of reverential respect mixed with fear or wonder. Wonder: a feeling of surprise mingled with admiration, caused by something beautiful, unexpected, unfamiliar, or inexplicable.

[@kyler9323]

@@nickk4851 You can use those words to mean emotions. You can also use them as a way to describe the reaction of the intellect as it meets the transcendent. A dictionary argument is not going to work here. Beauty draws us up toward God and Heaven. It is outward focused. Chasing an emotion is inward focused. This shouldn't be controversial to say.

[@michaelhutchings8599]

Why can't I comment on the video with Charron? Talking about how Vigano is wrong. Can't have counter arguments can we?

[@phillyedhrj]

Philadelphia is very Roman on some parishes but... yeah.

[@wacopaco2099]

Yesterday I was looking at the orthodox Great Schemas, and they looked so cool. Just decorated in all these beautiful symbols etc etc, and I looked up if Catholic Monks have anything like that. But we don’t, we have black and brown cloaks. At first, I was kinda disappointed. Damn, why can’t we have this cool thing? Then I read about the monks themselves, and one thing stuck out to me. Poverty. Then it all came to me. I remembered “oh yeah, this isn’t really supposed to look cool, that’s not what it’s supposed to be about.” It’s about being humble and subservient to God. We can make the church look beautiful, and when they celebrate the mass they wear beautiful vestments, but when they’re outside of that, it’s about understanding your place in the universe and loving where and what you are.

[@mirelaalina4050]

Can we have an Orthodox priest? Or someone who is Orthodox? ✝️❤️

[@trex6690]

Tbh most Novus Ordo masses out here in the east are pretty based because the people understand that they are something other than the general pagan or heathen populas, this thing that theyre participating in something special that some other Catholic only a miles away cannot because of radicals burning thier church down. Even tbh the charismatic churches (which oh boy there are a lot because Hindu converts find them special) have reverant masses even if thier "other stuff" isn't that reverant.

[@AnHebrewChild]

But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

[@christopherevans4273]

Okay you have now made me concerned over my homilies.

[@thebeautyofcatholicism4227]

❤️

[@Charlotte_Martel]

Absolutely agree with Michael: had the liturgy remained majestic and not descended into Protestatism-lite, I likely would not have left the Church in my teens. Wish that our Holy Father would take note that the Latin Masses are standing room only while the guitar Masses have a few old hippies left in the pews.

[@lukejohnson1274]

Oh I believe he is taking note. I also believe he hates the Church so his plan is working perfectly for him.

[@CJ-rx5fi]

Michael is the best and brightest host at the Daily Wire. God bless you both! ❤

[@steakfilly5199]

If you look at the seminaries, they’re filled to the brim with amazing young men. The future is here.

[@PauperPeccator]

Regarding architecture: example a - McDonalds are being built like shoe boxes, SPECIFICALLY to demoralize you and me.

[@irishchristian3991]

Did this man really just call a hurley a "field hockey stick" 😂

[@orangemanbad]

It’s clear it’s time for a Vatican III. The younger generations (my wife and I are 32, 27) want, no, CRAVE traditional. In my diocese the bishop restricts Latin mass to one parish. They relegated it to an old dying church that was about to be demolished. And now there’s literally not even room for parking or seating. Why does the church refuse to allow us to worship the way all the saints did? Serious question..

[@alexandrak3241]

overflow in maybe the vestibule but not really the sacristy!

[@gwendylanpusateri2947]

There are now no Latin masses around where I live. I feel like New Braunfels should have at least one high mass at the St. Peter and Paul Cathedral, but no. My husband and I look forward to a Latin mass one day. If you can't find a Latin mass is Greek or byzantine Orthodox ok? Or no? Our Novus Ordo at least still does Kiere in Latin, every other one I've visited is just plain English. Every church is different.

[@throngarastora7569]

Orthodox aren't in communion, Eastern Catholics or NOs are good

[@Chispaluz]

New Braunfels, TX? There’s St Timothy Catholic Church in San Antonio. Quiet a drive but that’s where I go. Low mass only though sadly but still beautiful.

[@mayrakrp]

There will be a Rorate Caeli mass this Saturday Dec 3rd at St. Timothy’s 6am Hope you can make it!

[@mayrakrp]

St. Timothy has high mass almost every Sunday 12:30pm

[@Chispaluz]

@@mayrakrp really? I’ve been going every other weak for like two months now, until my wife gets more on board with the TLM. Maybe I just miss it. I’ve only ever seen two candles and I thought a high mass had to have six? Maybe I wrong on that and it’s only the solemn high mass? Will it be a TLM?

[@togbourn]

Let’s not forget the pope moving priests around engaged in criminal behaviour.

[@mrtoodamngoodtoyou]

lol they've been doing that since year 1, they're never gonna stop, that altar boy bum is just too sweet to pass on

[@melchiel4413]

The reason someone should reject Christianity isn’t the trinity, as all minds we know of are triune, being a consciousness, a subconsciousness, and the connection between them, creating a complex union of three personalities as one, it isn’t G-d being a man, it is torture of sinners. Islam has a less problematic view, but it’s still mostly torture, and therefore no moral human can support either of them without being a fraud.

[@Nexus-jg7ev]

I would agree that the problem of Hell is very serious for exclusivity religion and, if anything, it certainly raises at least doubts in adherents. It certainly raised doubts in me when I was a Muslim. What eventually let me out of the religion (and kept me away from Christianity too) was simply the insufficient evidence to support the claims of these religions or even outright counterevidence against their claims.

[@melchiel4413]

​@@Nexus-jg7ev There are actually disorganized religions that can be reasonably believed in, Deism, plain Theism, etc., but the Deity one worships must be held as at least neutral in human eyes or we wouldn't need to worship Him since he would be detestable. I have some under-educated opinions on why He can hear and answer our prayers, but any attempt at religion without a set of revealed commandments is troubling to me, as I don't crave exact objective accuracy as much as meaningful stories and a two way relationship with G-d anymore. I have been a part of many religions and sects, but to get into a religion like the one I'm in, Noahidism, you need a serious leap of faith, young Earth Creationism, the Flood, the Exodus, G-d talking from the mouth of a donkey, etc., but it is quite liberating to no longer believe in torture in the afterlife (though my small minded Hypotheses tell me there is an afterlife, and that hits my intuition, for intuition is what really points the heart toward a faith, not long periods of switching between religions given any evidence at all shifting your position.

[@louisbaker4362]

@@Nexus-jg7ev agreed. I used to be an Anglican but I'm in the same boat. I find the evidence for the claims made by faith to be lacking. I'm not an Atheist, I'm an Agnostic. I am open to the idea of a deity existing but I can't find convincement of any faith.

[@Nexus-jg7ev]

@@louisbaker4362 I think that we have very strong evidence that Jesus was an apocalyptic prophet and if he was to come back, it certainly had to be by 70 CE. The Jews revolted then because they thought that Daniel had predicted in the Old Testament that the Messiah would come then with the kingdom of God and the resurrection of the dead for judgement. The real significance of the resurrection was that Jesus was considered 'the first fruits of the new age'. His followers thought he was raised to heaven temporarily and he would return in 70 CE to fulfill the messianic prophecy. That, of course, didn't happen. The revolt failed and with it, the entire prophecy. If Jesus didn't come back when he had to, he couldn't have been raised. I don't think that we need to establish the probability of the resure by arguing about God's existence and the probability of miracles because the resurrection is not an unfalsifiable event. It is totally falsifiable and testable because it did not trigger the coming of the new age.

[@Random-hi8yi]

Morality has no basis lol

[@wendyfield7708]

It is the people who make a liturgy reverent, not the language, but the way people do it and behave.

[@michaelbarry6589]

While I ultimately agree, one cannot look over the fact that Latin is the official language of the church and has special authority over demons. When Latin was written on the Holy Cross upon which our Lord hung, it became a blessed and holy language, indeed. Again, I agree with your statement, but the status of the Latin language as holy is still recognized by the Roman Catholic Church and therefore must be prioritized in the liturgy, as the documents of Vatican II declare.

[@bumponalog5001]

Partially true. It's also how the liturgy is written.

[@christopherpavesi7245]

The NO mass isn't a problem because of the vernacular, it is a problem because it is nearly identical to a protestant service. Almost everything Catholic has been stripped from it. For a time I attended Lutheran services and they were nearly identical to the NO Mass.

[@aniap8157]

Everything starts at the top. The priest says the Mass, not the people.

[@CalvinGomes]

TLM didn't exist in the time of the early Christians. Mass would have been Jewish or Greek. In fact there was a schism in the church when a pope decided to translate the Bible into Latin, because it was to allow normal people to understand scripture. Now the Latin rite movement wants to do the same, but in reverse. I wish the TLM people would stop coming up with any reason for division.

[@glennlanham6309]

if everyone could see it...

[@johnp.newburnspianocomposi6552]

As for the priest's jokes and the guitar music being less interesting than what you could otherwise be doing, we come to Mass to worship, not to be entertained, which I've heard is a reason for the ad orientem configuration as opposed to the stage feel of versus populum.

[@Luke-vg7ut]

As a younger Catholic convert I want a reverent mass with as little singing as possible.

[@storytimewithauntmonica955]

We have one! My husband is hard of hearing and the organ ruins his hearing for mass, so we looked around and found a mass where we chant the psalms and maybe sing one hymn. It’s glorious.

[@normastanley5853]

Name the dam cigars.

[@abelovedchildofgod7383]

“No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money. Matthew 6:24

[@hamnchee]

The Godfather was a beautiful work of art.

[@danesovic7585]

Please, get Nick Fuentes on.

[@leonasloan7618]

The cigars are ridiculous.

[@randumgaming]

The shag carpet comment is actually working against your argument, Matt, because like shag carpets in their hay-day, these things were new and beautiful and preferred by a lot of people; as as the times changes the issues with them were apparent because, like with all things, time brought a fresh perspective on the old and the new. The Latin Mass has plenty of faults that are glamorized and overlooked intentionally to bury the Novus Ordo Mass, and the NO Mass has plenty of faults too. Why we go there on Sundays is for correct worship and the true presence, not the chants or the guitars. Those are simply preferences, and everyone has one.

[@SwordsmanRyan]

The difference are the particular preferences of the selfish boomer generations from whom nothing good ever came compared to the Mass of Ages which was celebrated for a millennium back to Charlemagne. Don’t mistake timeless beauty for mere aesthetic fashion choices.

[@guyontheright]

You're in Steubenville. Speak out against Kroger for firing employees who refuse to wear LGBT paraphernalia (documented here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/a2GteGd_q56NbZo). This is the one place in the country we as Catholics can make a grassroots difference in fighting back. You're an influencer in a city where everyone shops at Kroger. You have a responsibility.

[@chezjowy8596]

Sen. Cotton covered it

[@guyontheright]

@@chezjowy8596 Yeah 99% of people in Steubenville shop at Kroger for their groceries. The fact that we don't have enough balls to mobilize any kind of grassroots effort anywhere is why the FBI is banging down our doors.

[@bradclifton5248]

Boomer, modernists are dying out. They will leave behind Xs who are way more trad than their parents

[@imbonnie]

One thing I can thank covid for is ending the shaking of hands for the sign of peace and the holding hands during the Our Father.

[@tylerdean3489]

I don’t know why so many people hate the sign of peace, the tradition was that Christians didn’t know if they would be killed before the next time they celebrated together, so they made peace with each other in case they all died.

[@dianefresca6896]

All that is practice of "the traditions of man make void the word of God

[@Augass]

+

[@jettmoore6549]

If your spirit is raised by architect, and the construction of the church is what made you feel good, then your heart is not Set on Christ or the Gospel, but a building built by men. Repent!

[@Chris82151]

He's painting with some broad brush strokes and caricatures. He simply cannot speak to everyone's disposition at either rite.

[@CoolPandaTheMovieNerd]

Let’s talk about the Catholic Church wanting the nazis to win the war…. But you don’t know how.

[@user-wz5gc2td9s]

While not the only reason, lack of beauty and reverence greatly influenced my turning from protestantism. It got to a point where it was an absolute chore to go to church. Not because it was hard, but because i could hardly see the point. It didnt feel like i was going there to worship the creator of the universe. It felt like i was just going just to go. And having to sit through an hour of the lamest pop concert on earth didnt help much.

[@rubecork7102]

You can't keep a cigar out of your mouth for 10 minutes?!

[@dannyk7226]

Clicked off because real Catholics shouldn’t smoke cigars.

[@pulldpin67]

Might be better if you lose the cigars..

[@geofredotappan9777]

I belong to an LDS church, but at least you can keep my attention.

[@jenniferibarra7737]

Jesus is the king of all Kings .

[@mattr.1887]

Former Protestant here. I am very grateful for my evangelical upbringing. BUT, I also respect the ritual and tradition of Catholicism and Orthodoxy. As a Protestant, I saw this as godless blasphemy. But people need ritual and beauty; people want that - even if they have doubts about the theology behind it. I think the Catholic church had way more stones before Vatican II.

[@JoyInFreedom]

Love you all but Catholicism partakes and things that are not even biblical. You are not supposed to elevate man via the Pope. You don't need a priest who confess to God. It's a relationship, not a religion. You can pray at any point to him and you don't need a vessel in the middle. Nowhere in the Bible does it say you should pray to saints. We should appreciate the saints. However, praying to them? No way. We only pray to the Father. And I would never call a priest father. Since there is only one father. I go to a Baptist Church because we focus strictly on the word. We do have some stuff in common. We both believe Jesus Christ is King and we do communion. There are some good things in Catholicism for sure but there are many things that are not biblical. I promise I'm not trying to attack anyone.

[@johnbrowne3950]

You left out the Catholics worship of Mary, although the church uses the word veneration. The same church folks kneel and pray to graven images, statues of their dead saints.

[@JoyInFreedom]

@@johnbrowne3950 Yes, it is not biblical to pray to any saints. Mary is an amazing woman but we should only pray to our Lord. Appreciation and prayer are two different things. The attention to statues and rituals and praying the rosary again are not biblical like you mentioned. I have crosses on my walls and such but I do not pray to them and I know that they do not make me more Christian. I have them simply to consistently remind me while I'm home about the sacrifice Jesus Christ made for all of us. You don't need objects or all these extra rituals. They also slightly twist the gospel. We are saved through grace and not works. We should do good works but not to get into heaven. We go to him with our pockets empty. We should do good works because when we allow the Holy Spirit to fill us then we want to be more like Jesus and help others and love others the way we love ourselves. Only through his grace is salvation.

[@johnbrowne3950]

@@eternallycatholic2702 First of all, having Moses intercede for the Isrealites did not include having their sins forgiven. Secondly, Catholic doctrine concerning Mary isn't Biblical. Catholic interpretation of the Bible leaves a lot to be desired because of lies the church believes about her. Finally, only God can forgive sin and Christ, being God ,has the power to do so. Read the two previous verses of John 20:23 for proper context. Jesus never communicated any such power to forgive sins to his desciples. As they proclaimed the Gospel they could honestly tell the people who believed that message that their sins were forgiven. Those who did not believe were not forgiven and they stood condemned. Asking God for forgiveness of their sins as believers was the point.

[@johnbrowne3950]

@@eternallycatholic2702 The stuff the Roman Catholic Church believes about Mary doesn't make any sense. It's just made up Catholic dogma to give Mary status not given in the Bible. Anything to take away from Jesus. Facts: There is nothing in the Bible about Mary 1. Being sinless. 2. Being taken bodily to Heaven. 3. Being a perpetual virgin. 4. Being the queen of Heaven. 5. Being a co-redeemer. Nowhere in Scripture does it say Mary will be a mediator. Nowhere in Scripture does it say pray and give thanks to honor her. Nowhere in Scripture does it say build altars to her and kneel before her statue. Mariolatry is a cult within the Roman Catholic Church.

[@johnbrowne3950]

@@eternallycatholic2702 The Bible says Scripture was Holy Spirit inspired. It says nothing about men's writings or beliefs outside of the Word of God being inspired. Nowhere in the Bible does it say a council has any authority to decide what books are Scripture. The Bible's letters and writings always existed and were preserved by God. Psalm 34:8 Matthew 5:18 Mark 13:31 Luke 21:33 1Peter 1:24,25 Is the Catholic church also claiming the Old Testament? lol.

[@lordofthered1257]

This is why Mormonism is so attractive to me. The temples are beautiful, the people kind and wonderful, and the church members are reverent. It is so attractive.

[@danielbanovic511]

Except the theology is absolutely ludicrous

[@christrisen6589]

Mormons are not christians

[@lordofthered1257]

@@danielbanovic511 I know.

[@nonoyyonon8228]

After some time you will be controlled and your whole family

[@malice836]

Nice discussion. Must say I am old enough to have grownup with the Latin Mass until pretty young. I have to respectfully disagree with your emotional nostalgia for the Latin Mass as beautiful as it is any Mass is beautiful.. seems a little elite to criticize anyone attending any Mass of any type. Just saying..

[@bumponalog5001]

The Latin Mass is objectively superior. I'm happy to send you a video that goes over this if you are interested. I'm not saying the new Mass isn't valid, it is. But there are varying degrees within that validity.

[@CalvinGomes]

@@bumponalog5001 you may have hated the early Christian mass then, as it was not TLM and therefore, inferior.

[@bumponalog5001]

@@CalvinGomes Please don't start with this non-sense. It's so old and tiresome. Do you want me to refute your claim or will it be a waste of my time?

[@JasonMAlexander]

I truly hope that you all come to accept Christ, and ONLY Christ, as your Savior. There is one mediator between Man & God and it is Christ Jesus

[@larryfloyd4993]

to micheal knowles, what beauty do you speak of... as a christian... i i never kiss the popes ring, or pray to mary and both are false idols.. as well as the saints... i never tell my sins to a pastor, rabbi... i go straight to to the source.. which is jesus the son of god... .. now there are a lot of awesome catholics.. .. i', say go straight to the lord jesus... .quit worshiping a false idol in the pope and mary

[@Lucy-nw4im]

I’m so sorry to hear. The love of Mary and the authority of the Pope is a truly beautiful thing. We don’t worship her nor Francis, just appreciate her virtues.

[@bigdogboos1]

no latin masses near me :/ i wanna go

[@staticnoise9030]

Islamic mosques are also very "traditional and reverent". Jewish synagogues are often very "traditional and reverent" Doesn't make them Biblical. There's protestant pastors who are more jokey, and protestant pastors who are more serious. The question is this. Are they sticking to the word of God? Any church should be evaluated on that standard primarily. I don't like modern Christian music. So I don't like the music at my non-denominational church. But you know what I do like? People being faithful and preaching the word of God. So any personal preferences are secondary to that. Traditional and reverent is fine if their priority is faithfully teaching and preaching God's word and bringing people into Christ's kingdom and making them disciples. Catholicism does not act faithfully to the word. While they have redeeming beliefs that are Biblical such as the divinity of Jesus' and I believe there are saved Catholics (in spite of Catholicism), a good chunk of Catholicism's teachings range from off base to heresy. If the Catholic church was casual and irreverant, their biggest problem would still be that they are not faithful to the word of God. That's true for protestant churches that are not faithful to the word of God as well. Style is a consideration, sure, we all have personal preferences with "style", but whether the church faithfully preaches God's word or not is not up for consideration. It's the thing of such primary importance that it makes all other issues seem like non issues in comparison. So to choose Catholicism because they are more traditional and reverent despite their butchering of God's word shows an off-base priority and understanding about the importance of the word's of the living God vs personal preferences in presentation.

[@joelcrumbley]

If only it could be called “The TRUTH of Catholicism” :( Read the scriptures!

[@MattBurrill]

...which were written, compiled and canonized by the Catholic Church.

[@biblealone9201]

Catholicism is the only Christian Faith . They are lead in worship By the Pope The Bishop Of Rome for those People who say the word Pope isn’t in the Bible, who was given the Keys to Heaven From Jesus . Through Apostolic succession From Peter the First Pope they worship Jesus, And thru The Holy Tradition Of the Saints formed the Bible , Biblical doctrines, Such as the Trinity, Sunday service, Easter, And Christmas teach Grace alone for salvation, Did not remove books From the Bible but preserved the writings of the Jewish Old testament which the protestants threw out , Catholics want to worship Jesus with all 5 of their senses . • Music for the ears, • Incense for the nose, • Statues and art for the eyes,

[@lukewilliams448]

The word pope means father, and you find this title is the name of the office of the keys in Isaiah 22

[@usergodcandy777]

Do people like this EVER talk about Jesus? What in the world is the point?

[@dianefresca6896]

LEAVE THE SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON ALONE. HE HAD A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD/JESUS YOU HAVE NO CLUE

[@jeffscully1347]

I get the feeling that those who insist the only proper Mass is the Latin Mass think that Jesus started it at the Last Supper. The truth is, Protestantism is older than the Latin Mass.

[@lawrenceshipley8486]

I have been to Latin Mass 4 to 5 times. I personally feel that if I only had the Latin mass to go to, I would have left the Church in a second. I personally get more out of the Mass live stream or out of going to dentist then going to Latin Mass. The more I watch Channels about how "good" the Latin mass is. The more I agree with Pope Francis. The Biggest scandal in the Church is when people say the standard Mass is bad or not as good! Pope Francis ban on the Latin Mass.

[@paernoser871]

Yet saying you prefer the dentist than the unbloody sacrifice of the mass under the old rite isn't scandalous?

[@alejandrocanela691]

You are doing it all wrong then.

[@michaelbarry6589]

If you really mean what you said, Lawrence, you would have only stayed Catholic during the most recent 60 years of the entire 2000 year old history of the church, my friend. You may want to look inwards and contemplate why it is you feel this way about the holy sacrifice of the Mass that so many of the saints took part in and attended.

[@lawrenceshipley8486]

@@michaelbarry6589 it was the only Mass around..so not a valid agreement

[@lawrenceshipley8486]

@@paernoser871 I get great joy, closeness to God, and strength from the standard Mass. The Latin mass feels dead and the people are not very welcoming (at least around where I'm from) it seems that if I go to that type of mass The People don't matter and that Is a problem for me

[@G.B.P.]

TLM > NO Not debatable

[@anc974]

I witnessed the United Church liturgy, not really by choice but it reminded me of how beautiful the Catholic Church is. My conclusion after hearing them a few times is that they worship themselves and skim over the Gospel… furthermore they contradict themselves in preaching the gospel while twisting it to make it feel good for their in-house needs… blatantly anti-Christian.

[@NoName-fo7mz]

This is the cringiest conversation ever.

[@masumi158]

Why?