The Church vs The Gospel: The Infamous Poelman Talk w/

[@overatourhouse4026]

When I came across this talk, it was huge for me! I had looked all over after conference for this talk to use in firesides I was doing at the time! Couldn’t wait for the Ensign to come out after Conference and when it did I was so confused because the talk wasn’t how I remembered it! I second guessed myself! Looked in other issues thinking I may have mixed up conferences etc! Did I mix up the speaker etc looked in my church library at past issues of Ensign hunting for this talk and never could find it until decades later stumbling across an article entitled “The greatest conference talk you never heard!” When I learned about what the church had done I was so shocked. The dishonesty and all the time and effort and 2nd guessing of myself at that time when it was the church that had made the changes and pretended it had always been that way😳I then asked myself “If the church did this, what else have they been deceptive about?” I had been a totally in and committed member my whole life and so the faith crisis - “oh what a tangled web we weave…..!”🤥

[@aakmullins]

💯👏😑

[@CarahBurrell]

Thanks for having me! ❤️💫

[@rob8959]

Thanks for coming on.

[@christeljulia]

Dehlin, Larson, & Burrell is kind of a dream team.

[@CarahBurrell]

😂😭🙏🏻

[@Indi_Waffle_Girl]

Very much agreed.

[@fronts3165]

Well you got me. I just learned that I was a Poelman Mormon. My end came way back in 1996 when I quietly walked away at the age of 33. It was a long time coming, though. Thank you John Larsen for bringing up those of us who served Asian missions. I remember distinctly thinking after a couple months in South Korea, the Korean people do not need us, we have nothing to offer, they have their own culture, religion and civilization and it is thousands of years older than ours. I was 19 then and a high school graduate. It was my first time abroad.

[@chelseal654]

I’m so happy to see John’s passion for bees! My husband and I are in the process of trying to buy a house with one acre and we want to have a bee garden and attract wild bees. Our neighbors here hate our low maintenance yard and we’re ready to make the change a help with cultivating our own backyard ecosystem Edit: I read the seven questions for atheists and as a believing Christian (not an evangelical), they were so offensive. Looking forward to John’s response because I bet it will be interesting!

[@caseyjude5472]

Getting older & have had to hire some help for occasional lawn & garden care. Having to explain that we don’t want any chemical sprays of any kind and that we WANT the “weeds” and why took several explanations. We have a little something for every variety of local wild bees on our property-it came that way. Our neighbors aren’t crazy about us either.

[@gomerpyle7721]

Glad you are looking out for wild bees. They are really important, maybe even more so than cultivated hives.

[@rockytreadway]

I love this series! This is the best combination of hosts and commentary. Thank you to all who worked on this episode!

[@harlanlang6556]

Fascinating show! Larson's mentioning his mission in Laos where Mormon's were not allowed to take part in Buddhist events reminded me of my wife's experience as a Buddhist in Malaysia attending a Methodist school from grade one through high school. The kids all had agency, but bible study was required. The Buddhists I knew did not have a scholarly knowledge of Buddhism. The rituals and temple events, the holidays and a few basic tenants were all they were taught. It was not so much a religion of having correct beliefs as most Christians have, but rather doing the right things to promote good health and prosperity and to avoid bad things happening to you. So my wife learned a lot more about Christianity than she knew about Buddhism. When she asked her mother if she could become a Christian, her mother didn't say no, but she told her that she wouldn't pray for her mother's soul when she died as Buddhists do. So my wife never became a Christian even though she did believe in Jesus. But it is true in Malaysia that Christians will not take part in Buddhist ceremonies such as funerals. So all Christians seem to shoot themselves in the feet with their narrow minded ways of separating themselves from the old culture out of fear. My feeling is that people will naturally and gradually decide how deeply to be involved in their culture. I think that's called agency.

[@BusterBronco1987]

I’ve come to love John Larsen episodes!

[@bethumlauf6999]

John, your passion, wicked wit and lighting fast deconstruction of topics make you my favorite guest of all time. Keep bringing it!

[@pippaarmitage9525]

1:09 It’s also about the American Church vs the Worldwide Church. American politics is a detriment to the worldwide membership with its uniqueness to your country. (Posting from Australia)

[@62Loralee]

John i love your heart. You love this planet.

[@newrichardjones4545]

Sorry so soon, just wanted the John's and Carah to know that I appreciate what they do. I look forward to these eps, I enjoy the frustration and anger John L. feels, because I feel them also. Thank you MSP

[@TheRealCantaraBella]

2nd comment: My mind is blown with this edited talk. The firs one felt way more hopeful, practical, and forgiving. The 2nd a clear declaration of Church Authority. Apple and Orange. My mind is blown

[@mormonstories]

Agreed. The first talk would have been wonderful for members then and today.

[@dtebbs1]

“Moving pipe” is the saying when moving sprinkler pipe.

[@jameswalberg3265]

Three of the best post LDS voices in an informative and entertaining 2 plus hours that went by very very quickly.

[@daniellima2973]

I’m doing the meadow thing in my backyard and making my lawn into a clover lawn and planting flower bushes .

[@desiadaven]

John Larsen, I feel inspired by your call for flowers. We garden and have fruit trees, but we have also been starting a plant starts business and I wonder with a little research and work if we could encourage garden designs with three seasons worth of flowers. We sure appreciate the pollinators as without them, our garden would not be fruitful!

[@townsendv58]

I live in the uk. There were few flowers in my garden when . I brought my current house. I now have loads of flowers inthe front and back. I have planted several fruit trees. I will be planting more.

[@DeweyKnowaBitfromaByte]

The contrast between the original “the conformity we require FROM OURSELVES and others,” and the edited, “the conformity we require” is a perfect precursor to “We neither seek nor give apologies,” that John Dehlin expresses frustration/wonder at so often on the podcast.

[@koriel-in-real-life]

The Carah, John, and John show!!! Always a delight. Even if there's no f-bombs this time... Oh well.

[@christeljulia]

❤️ John Larson; he's a real mensch.

[@papadopp3870]

Übermensch!

[@keile513]

John Larsen is so special. He helps my ease my brain. Thank you so much, John&John&Carrah

[@cartercordingley6062]

I bit of a back story first I lived in a ward that was nickname "the nearly Wed or the nearly dead" because there where not enough youths in the ward. Because of this every young man had to pass the sacrament and then also some Elders had to. When I was around 14 years it was found out I was being sexually abused by a extended family member. Because of this "sin" I was not allowed to pass or take the sacrament. I felt like I was put in front of the whole ward and was found guilty. I was so embarrassed I did not want to go to church but I was forced to go because of my transgressions. Also the this was one of the sexual abuse the church handled instead and swept it under the rug. The abuser went on abusing others for about 20 year until the proper authorities arrested him.

[@shotzybrownkiddos9892]

I’m sorry you suffered though that. Thanks for sharing this part of your story

[@99blackbirds]

This was GREAT!!! Thank you so much!!!

[@howdypooki]

I compare John Larsen to Benjamin Franklin. A well rounded leader of the early years of the revolution towards the lds church. Always spittin' truth and wisdom, always pursuing further light and knowledge.

[@joetaylor8687]

You can't say "Mormon!" That's a "victory for Satan." The old: "Dare to be a Mormon, Dare to stand alone . . . Dare to have a purpose firm, Dare to make it known." But after like a couple of centuries, The new: Don't you DARE say you're a 'Mormon,' Don't you DARE to use that name! 'Cause Rusty doesn't like the term, and Rusty runs the game.

[@Jeanette7981]

♥️ John Larson! I love his rants and his honesty! John D get on my nerves because he is such a prude gets on the one I have left. 😂

[@justus6]

I’m gonna try and listen to John Larsen again. It’s been a long while. The last time he was trashing “Trumpsters” and conservatives. I’m deconstructing bs the church fed me as many of you are, infact 50 years of deconstruction I’m having to do. I very much enjoy his vast knowledge of the history of the church, but I don’t necessarily want to be demonized while just trying to learn the truth of the history of the church.

[@MrDAVEDIX]

It's tough! Esp. because John is as misinformed today about climate change as he used to be about the church.

[@lilatueller]

Seems that everyone who is looking at baptism (and the age needs to be older than 8) should be able to read a waiver that says “we reserve the right to change doctrine, change policies, change core scripture and ordinances without prior warning.”

[@exmohobobonobo]

Yes, I especially agree that the age of baptism should be older than eight! What age do you think is ideal? I’ll go first: I vote for eighteen.

[@LazarWolf07]

All I had to hear was John Larsen posted a video to KZbin and I immediately subscribed before I even knew what it was about. Please post a lot more JL. I never heard Mormon Expression till you had already closed up shop. So, everything new you offer is greatly appreciated. Yes, I am a huge fan but out of respect to you I never consider everything you say as revelation or gospel truth. Thanks for not being a cult leader. Yeehaw!

[@InternationalMysteries360]

Thanks John Dehlin for being the light as the beautiful poem says.

[@Mary9beth]

I have a question while watching this I kept thinking who is the person behind the scenes telling them what’s proper and what’s not? I’ve always wondered if one of you guys would do something titled “who is the leader of the church??”

[@amygreen758]

The has lawyers running most things.

[@scottduede8134]

@1:05:00 Beginning of discussion's central thesis begins formulation here.

[@TheRealCantaraBella]

God bless. I feel the pain of seeing local bio systems be disrupted and destroyed. It is miserable to watch the lack of care

[@mormonstories]

It's a good reminder to recommit to what we can do.

[@ghosty22xx]

Johns explanation for why people are leaving in droves makes so much. my parents are the MAGA republicans and it is getting out of hand. and it started with glenn beck. Everything they believe makes a lot more sense to me now

[@rachelhansen2417]

Wow, this is eye opening. My mom would say something along the lines of “the church is true, but not the people”, and I wonder if this idea was founded in the original talk.

[@rockytreadway]

I'm from Idaho, grew up on a farm and now work in agriculture. I've only ever hear it referred to as "moving pipe".

[@terranbishop8368]

This is an interesting piece of Mormon history. I had no idea this had happened. Thanks for telling the story. 💗

[@jancooley4963]

This was a huge crack for me. Had just returned from my mission and this was the greatest talk I’d ever heard. Then the Ensign came out and I was horrified and furious at what they had done. They had done the very thing he was teaching was the problem. They still cannot fathom why it’s wrong and just can’t understand why so many of us are leaving.

[@scottduede8134]

@1:19:00 Major argument cemented here. (Aside: Carah's dynamic this area is probably really useful here, looking at power dynamic stuff.)

[@fronts3165]

I love John Larsen. Been listening to him rant since his days in Lehi. ❤

[@atphoenix2020]

I am one of his first subscrobers. Watched his video today and loved it. Looking forward to your wing expansion!

[@mr.hermit2433]

We have the Agency to do what They tell us... and nothing else...?🤔

[@62Loralee]

At our stake dances, our dresses and skirts were measured by a credit card before entering to dance floor. They could not be shorter than a horizontal credit card above the knee.

[@Indi_Waffle_Girl]

There's something comforting about the "Hello everyone! Welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast..." intro that John always gives. It's familiar (:

[@miaxjime]

If would be amazing to have these podcast in Spanish. I know a lot of people that will benefit from listening to you all.

[@scottduede8134]

@39:00 Introduction of before-/after-edited version of the aforementioned Poelman talk.

[@scottduede8134]

@50:00 Editing contrast laid out again. (aside: These parts differ deeply in syntax.)

[@Indi_Waffle_Girl]

Maven is there?! Hi Maven!! You're beautiful and I love your story so much ❤️

[@bonojennett]

Are the time stamps correct? It would be good to know it starts talking about the talk around 20:00

[@dtebbs1]

The big battle between Wayne Owens (dem) against Jake Garn (rep) for US Senate. People would get 1:09:20 up and bear testimony about their favorite candidate.

[@scottduede8134]

@33:00 Starts further into psychological impact of high demand religions.

[@erpthompsonqueen9130]

1.4 K as of now. Thank you, John Larson.

[@swimbikrun]

Small thing, but $10K in 1984 would be more like $30K today

[@blairmcian]

There are sections of videos like this one which are terrific on their own and don't relate to what the headline/title of the video refers to (like Mr. Larsen talking about the Great Salt Lake here). I would like to post with a bookmark at that point of the video but I know that some people who see the title in my post would be put off by it and not watch. I wish there were a way to clip portions and not have the title go with them.

[@blairmcian]

There is a "Clips" option but it's just sixty seconds maximum.

[@blairmcian]

"Share" does allow one to start the shared video at a certain point in the video, but the title and cover image of the video remains the same.

[@davidjohnson605]

Great episode.... but I was slightly disappointed in the end because John Larsen suggested the Poelman edits had Hinkley written all over it... but they never returned to why he thinks this is so.

[@kscott8464]

John Larsen is a treasure

[@drewwhitney7327]

I had to google “edging” after John L’s joke. I thought I had already heard it all. I never heard it called that before. We used to call it something that rhymes with Rue Pauls.

[@caseyjude5472]

Yes, a MST2000 version of that episode, that would be so great!

[@sewcellosusan8664]

I've always been fascinated with denominations. I work at a Churches of Christ affiliated university, so I was intrigued by Joseph Smith's interest in ideas of Alexander Campbell early on.

[@jilenehulick9900]

I love my Mormon family and the people are mostly kind and do funerals so generously. I with to visit with kindness and give everyone their own journey and space to do so. Don’t like meanness.

[@theresazelazny7445]

John, this reminds me of a Dr. Who episode. The insidious part is, this is not fiction.

[@scottduede8134]

@1:16:00 Further editing analysis starts.

[@scottduede8134]

@52:30 Aristotelian---Platonic distinction reviewed. (Aside: I like this other chart for this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churches_Militant,_Penitent,_and_Triumphant)

[@jilenehulick9900]

How can I find the episode you did with the ten main bullet points why the church isn’t true? I heard it and wrote down fast, but would appreciate I can review it.

[@beboystyle620]

Didn’t know John served among the Laotians! Sabaidee!

[@phirah79]

I'm a progressive mainline Christian and I love watching your show to learn about Momom beliefs. But I have to say I'm immediately confused by this talk needing to make a distinction between the gospel and the church. Why would anyone ever think the church *is* the gospel in the first place? From my perspective that would be like someone being anxious to make sure that we understand there is a difference between the US Constitution and the Senate. Like...of course they're different. One is a document and one is a group of people. So the Gospel is the good news that Christ has come into the world to save us and the church is a group of people who profess to follow Christ. Why and how could I or anyone come to the conclusion that they are the same thing? It doesn't make sense to me but I must be missing something.

[@jilenehulick9900]

Can your previous episodes be accessed?

[@truecrimenwine489]

KZbin premium is the thing John was talking about where you can lock your screen and use your phone as normal with the video playing! Just like a podcast but see the video when you want. And you can also download and listen in the car, on a walk or anywhere offline :)

[@t-pain3343]

Did he say herdtstilian? Where's the quarter machine?

[@bonojennett]

44:30 Talk starts

[@philipanthony9596]

Any sensible adherent to any religion understands the difference between principles and practice. The Mormon Church is no different. The Church and the Gospel are not the same thing. Never have been, never will be. I figured this out at least three decades ago. Welcome aboard!

[@jimforman3754]

not that it is fair or right, but paying KZbin has saved me HOURS of frustration and wtf-ery. I didn't hear you mention my favorite part. downloading videos to your device to play when you can't (or don't want to ) use cell data/wifi

[@thelastgoonie6555]

Interesting to think it wasn't too long ago that these talks were given by a single person. After this, they are written by committee, previewed, focus-group tested, then approved or changed beforehand. Ugh. It's so contrived.

[@jilenehulick9900]

Episodes # ? Discussion of 10-15 bullet points why church isn’t true? I am a subscriber and gave donation. Great information. You must comfort the people in the world searching for truth. Thank you.

[@MrBilgey]

The idea that everyone has a portion of 'the light of Christ' is totally meaningless.

[@rob8959]

Ba da da da da I'm loving it. The cult in it's dieing death throws. Build lots of temples to get the money out before it's too late. Now if I could figure out how to get my wife out of the cult. Thanks for all you do.

[@scottduede8134]

@35:30 Platonic Forms/Ideals explanation

[@lexhal5471]

Poelman: There is no manual. Church: Yes there is, God (we) wrote it. me: * still didnt read it *

[@jilenehulick9900]

It’s ok. I don’t need you to send. I have it already written down.

[@francoalvau8721]

People need to understand that the world and climate is going to change with or without us. Yes the climate may be changing and there is nothing we can do to stop it. We need to stop being chicken Littles and start living

[@scottduede8134]

@42:32 Carah lays out parts of the larger framework in terms of power dynamics here.

[@christeljulia]

Holy crap (forgive my language! 🤪). These amendments are _ heinous_!

[@harryfve5]

Hey the bands getting back together. Free bird!!!!

[@townsendv58]

John Larsen - how about home composting? That's if you are able to do so.

[@townsendv58]

@John Larsen I just put wire underneath the composted and the worms took up residence.

[@SouthernIdaho]

I see the LDS church as Lucifer's church...

[@rtharalson]

Best comment - edging. if you know you know

[@blarsen8]

John. I will buy you a new microphone that won’t make the annoying puff on your s’s, p’s and t’s. I bet it’s your old mic from Mormon Expression Podcast.

[@blarsen8]

@John Larsen If you can’t find it I will donate something for you or your setup John. ❤️

[@JulieSnowstudiojuliesnow3698]

44:30

[@robertsaladino]

Challenge accepted John...Tithing has not been altered in general.

[@robertsaladino]

@John Larsen John come on, obviously in past ages the definition changed with the times and seasons. I live in NY I don't own oxen. We were speaking of nefarious alterations of doctrine under the rug or claiming a wise God is contemporary with the modern day. 10 percent has always been 10, of course the semantics of the words in economics changes but that's not done in a sneaky way. I'm calling for at least a tie.

[@reddish22]

@@robertsaladino But you're not seeing that he's saying (correctly) that what you were paying ten percent on (increase versus income) HAS clearly changed.

[@hbendzulla8213]

@@reddish22 👍

[@reddish22]

I love these episodes with John Larsen. When he was talking about how Ronald Poelman gave the Church a solution to the problems they'd face over the next 30 years--I was reminded of this piece about the "Swearing Elders" and Sterling McMurrin: sunstone.org/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/053-08-13.pdf. It's like every single time the Church could get itself out of a jam, it's leaders choose instead to stamp on the very thing that could help them.