The Curse Of The "Unexpected Twist"

[@akosszilagyi2656]

I don't remember where i've heard it, but it's very true. After a bad twist: "I didn't see that coming." After a good twist: "I should've seen that coming."

[@nont18411]

Walter White poisoning Brock in Breaking Bad: "I should've seen it coming." Arya killing the Night King: "I didn't see it coming."

[@SoloRenegade]

bad twists, subversion of expectations, is what unskilled storytellers do.

[@seabreeze4559]

Littlefinger started the war, LF on the throne.

[@PsychedeliKompot]

My cynicism has me going with the same two reactions, but the other way around. "Should've seen coming that this would be terrible", and "I didn't see it coming that they'd actually think of a good twist". ^^

[@Tyler_W]

This. Nothing wrong with "subverting expectations" as long as you execute it in an emotionally resonant manner and can go back and follow the internal logic of how they fooled the audience and how they arrived at the conclusion they did. That's good writing, not "lol so random."

[@ericsantucci6934]

Thanks to TLJ, I wince just from hearing the words “subverted expectations.”

[@LifesGuardian]

There is a way to subvert expectations, yet not be a total twat. When done well, it pays off in spades. When done like in the SW sequels and last 2 GoT seasons, it's crap.

[@alexanderjohnson6178]

But that makes it brilliant!

[@HolyMith]

Subverting expectations is code for perverting successful writing.

[@shanenolan8252]

The dictionary definition of subverted is eye opening

[@LifesGuardian]

@@shanenolan8252 Which dictionary? . sub·vert·ed, sub·vert·ing, sub·verts 1. To overthrow or destroy (a government or an established order or authority). See Synonyms at overthrow. 2. To undermine, overturn, or render ineffective (a rule or an established notion, such as a stereotype, for example). 3. To cause to serve a purpose other than the original or established one; commandeer or redirect: "a short, virus-like piece of DNA that replicates itself ... by subverting the cell's DNA replication machinery" (Richard Dawkins). 4. To undermine, mislead, or betray: "Willy's batch of unexamined dreams and aspirations confused, misled, and subverted him" (Joseph Badaracco). American Heritage 1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) to bring about the complete downfall or ruin of (something existing or established by a system of law, etc) 2. to undermine the moral principles of (a person, etc); corrupt Collin's English 1. to overthrow (something established or existing). 2. to cause the downfall or ruin of. 3. to undermine the principles of; corrupt. Randomhouse Kernerman Webster's www.thefreedictionary.com/subverted

[@derezatron]

"would have been too obvious to have Jon kill the night king" That sentence is the biggest problem i have with modern writing. They have turned "subverting expectation" into its own genre of writing, rather than keeping it as a writing tool. We were watching a story play out, of course there was going to be some obvious scenes written. It's how they are performed, and edited that should be a surprise. "Wow. I knew 'this person' was going to die. I didn't expect to be so moved by the scene, though". Now it's a case of, "it would be too obvious for the thing that we are writing to occur...let's have the whitewalkers be werewolves from the future and zelda appears to defeat them. NO ONE will see that coming". We won't see it coming because it is stupid. Not because our expectations were subverted.

[@supern0is349]

exactly im pretty nobody was expecting chewbacca to kill darth vader, and yet if that actualy had happened nobody would be impressed. It would be a trash way to end the movie.

[@defectiveindustries]

Everyone has copied JarJar Abrams mystery box. What they all forgot to do was put anything in the box

[@boobah5643]

@@defectiveindustries To be fair, that's explicitly true of Abrams's mystery boxes, too. Not a defense of the abhorrent practice, mind, just pointing out that you're complaining about a _bullet point_ of the Abrams Mystery Box.

[@Th3BadThing]

@@defectiveindustries "JarJar Abrams" holy shit that made me laugh

[@ComradeCommissarYuri]

I’m pretty sure they stole the idea from Preston Jacobs who made a joke “What are they going to do?!! Have Arya come out of literally nowhere to kill the nightking?!!! 😂” That was 3 years before they made season 8.. the same 3 years Dumb and Dumber stated they “decided” arya killed the nightking

[@Ash_Wen-li]

Jon killing the turned dragon would have been a beautiful piece of symbolism and foreshadowing. Just imagine the tension between Jon and Dany after that battle and soldiers were calling him the "Dragonslayer"

[@skyereave9454]

Another beautifully missed opportunity. Of course.

[@googleislame]

Wow.

[@RTU130]

Ye

[@brothertobias]

"I love plot twists that make the story less interesting" - Richard Evans, RedLetterMedia The way to approach twists when writing is to lean back and think: "Is my story better if I just don't do the twist?". If the answer is yes or even maybe, just don't do it.

[@fightingmedialounge519]

I wouldn't say maybe warrants a definitive no.

[@shan4680]

Subverting expectations is just doing something people don't expect. This in and of itself isn't always a good thing.

[@tcaudiobooks737]

Picture this. Instead of saving Dany in battle, Jorah lays down his sword, pulls down his briefs and has a wank instead. Subverting expectations? Absolutely! Any good? No. "Subverting expectations" and "foreshadowing" are the most overrated tools of storytelling.

[@kaizokujimbei143]

Subversion means taking control through insidious means. Ruin Johnson wanted to assume control of public perception with his shit movie.

[@JLF-cn1rr]

That's the thing, though. Subversion isn't just about taking away what the audience expects. It's about taking away something the audience expects and, ideally, replacing it with something the audience doesn't know it wants. Ned dying in season 1 was not something the audience generally expected, but the fallout was what drew people in for the rest of the story. A lesson that you could say... D&D kind of forgot about... lol

[@varanid9]

@@tcaudiobooks737 Exactly. Of course, if that had actually happened, it would have at least been more entertaining than what we got.

[@joeldykman7591]

Subverting expectations, a good example: One punch man a bad example: anything Rain Johnson has wrote.

[@marychocolatefairy]

Heck, even George Martin himself said in an interview that because of the internet there'll always be someone that will guess something, but that a writer has to ignore it because making up something else last minute would derail the story.

[@jonbaxter2254]

Don't give viewers something they didn't want. Give them something they didn't know they wanted.

[@angrypredator2704]

Damn, that’s actually kinda brilliant

[@johnnyskinwalker4095]

OK I wanted Jon on the Throne. I didn't want Dany on the Throne. Something I didn't know I wanted....Baelish maybe? lol

[@amnewl727]

Well said. When someone spit balled the idea of Jon and Theon facing the NK together and Az mentioned a Jon turned white, I got that little feeling

[@seabreeze4559]

LF should've won, a big fan video by one Neo goes into why. It was foreshadowed too. Littlefinger should've fought Arya as a Bravosi man, it was hinted he is one waaaaaay earlier on. Then killed Arya. With decades of sword practice. THAT would subvert expectations because Arya literally just did the training level against other young people. And LF would've been motivated after losing his duel to never lose a fight again. Sansa couldn't punish him because SHE chose trial by combat. It would've been amazing.

[@shanenolan8252]

First rule of media. ( give the people what they want)

[@RolandDeschain1]

The show completely stranded Cersei and Tyrion. Cersei literally stood at a window with a glass of wine in her hand for the last two seasons.

[@szabolcskecskes]

yeah. And Jon was degraded to a moron with two sentence to choose from. "I donwan tit!" or "Yoa mah qween!"

[@zkeletonz001]

Cersei basically failed upwards.

[@rosesongoku6980]

I can’t even fathom how and why she survived that long, let alone OUTLIVED the White Walkers.

[@RanMouri82]

The wine mom's version of mustache-twirling. "Muahaha~"

[@totesmagotes213]

After she blew up the sept, her story completely fell off. It should have shown her aligning the houses of Westeros in a tyrannical way, so that there was that true final showdown between her and the Targaryen invaders. Shit maybe even get some of the people of Westeros on her side so it would give more justification to Kings Landing getting burned by the dragon. And Jayme (or Tyrion possibly) should have killed her to fulfill that prophecy just like John should have killed the night king to fulfill that one. Doing unexpected things can be done well. GoT did it multiple times in the first few seasons. But if you set up freaking prophecies in fantasy, should see them through!

[@BrennanCh06]

In fact, the ENTIRE POINT of Campbell's work is that human stories are "predictable" to a certain extent, and SHOULD BE.

[@ronniedio7013]

Dan and Dave need no Campbell. Dan and Dave want no Campbell.

[@JK-sc8th]

The most important lesson I was taught about twist endings is that a bad twist ending makes you go "Wait... WHAT???" while a good twist ending makes you go "OF COURSE! It all makes sense now!" It's kind of mind blowing how many movies and TV shows get this wrong.

[@beerosaurusrex]

I think another comment nailed it, which is that a big difference in the last 5-10 years is that the writers seem to be on ego trips, they think they're smarter than the audience, in some cases even seem to have disdain for them.

[@tkraid2575]

True. Subversion as a way to progress the story is supposed to be able to tie its plot. It's not supposed to just go, "Heh, you didn't expect that did ya?". The twist was built up from the story, not away from it.

[@bearhow4876]

That should be your next “why modern movies suck: the unexpected twist”

[@georgeprchal3924]

Mad Max: Fury Road, a 2 hour car chase and there was nothing wrong with that.

[@tarron3237]

“why modern movies suck: the arbitrary brainfart”

[@jimluebke3869]

You didn't figure out that in the end Frodo would refuse to destroy the Ring, but Gollum would be the one to do it, by the end of Fellowship of the Ring? Because you had all the pieces. "The pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many", Isildur's (and Bilbo's) unwillingness to part with the Ring, it's foreshadowed from the first chapter. Unexpected twists aren't bad, and they aren't modern, unless you count Tolkien as modern. They only suck if they're badly written.

[@karlfranzemperorofmandefil5547]

@@jimluebke3869 unsuspected Twists are about as old as literature itself. Classical writing like Greek dramas are filled with well and not so we'll executed twists and betrayals.

[@josephfisher426]

@@jimluebke3869 It could have been guessed, but there was still the tension of what they do with Gollum to keep him at the right distance to allow that to happen.

[@VincoVenator]

The reason they like to throw in "unexpected twists" and in particular the case of Westworld rewriting theirs because viewers guessed it ahead of time is that the writers like to think they are more intelligent than the viewers, it's an ego salve.

[@qnebra]

Actual smart writers doesn't panic when fandom discovers their plot. Just look at Raised by Wolves, fandom predicts its story elements and show confirmed it in second series. It gives satisfaction to fandom.

[@Sssssss553]

@@qnebra and the some manga in Japan like one piece

[@WhiteManOnCampus]

In some cases, writers in ongoing media have actually taken ideas from fan theories that were better than what they came up with, because the writers are interested in telling a good and engaging story rather than masturbatory self-aggrandizement.

[@watchm4ker]

@@WhiteManOnCampus That can actually be kinda risky, especially if they follow the fanfic too closely. Taking broad inspiration is fine, but taking them verbatim can draw accusations of plagiarism.

[@bundyfay6447]

OLAY Ego Salve It's, like, really good.

[@bandit6272]

"Surprising" doesn't mean it's good. "Subverting expectations" is the same thing. I was surprised when someone jumped out and pepper sprayed me as a kid. Very surprising, but it 100% sucked.

[@Grasslander]

That would have made me salty. Well, peppery.

[@Laurtew]

I am over here literally choking on my bite of ramen. That should have come with a spew warning. (You are very much correct, but you subverted my expectations and caught me by surprise.)

[@rtbear674]

You see Jon Snow was about to duel night king, Suddenly superman came flying, punch night king in the face killing him and his army. I bet everyone got surprised, no one would be expecting this plot twist.

[@mattiasilva1705]

Jesus christ, topic aside, why in the fucking hell someone would use pepper spray on a child?!

[@iamthe80s49]

This problem stems from the modernist idea that everything must be new and nothing should be cliche. The problem is that GoT isn't a modernist work, nor are these writers anywhere near as skilled enough to make it so - this is pop television FFS. It's a case of people not understanding genre conventions (GoT being fantasy genre fiction) and wanting to appear smart, when in fact they are dancing to the wrong song entirely.

[@purpleguy319]

And i thought it stemmed from the post-modernist convention that everything must be utter garabage and meaningless.

[@MrBrachiatingApe]

Exactly! Originality has trumped excellence and straight-up replaced creativity. And idiots adhering to the Po-Mo (I see it as post-modern, frankly, since Modernism, at least in visual art, was very, very much about adhering to the expected conventions. Hence the flat, boring look of so much 1950s art; painters especially were following the thought of arch-modernist Clement Greenberg. Of course, it got worse after that...see Michael Craig-Martin's "An Oak Tree" for ludicrous depths originality uber alles quickly plummeted to...) Diktat now don't realize that one can make originality work only if one is so well-grounded in the conventions one knows exactly what's already been tried. But even then, originality is a hollow sort of triumph, anyway, as it has nothing to do with beauty, skill, or message...in more specific to literature, with engaging, well-rounded characters, intelligent plot lines, exciting scenes and events, consistent and believable lore, interesting settings, tragedy, triumph, love, regret, revenge, justice, etc., etc., etc.

[@benjamingrant5970]

The biggest problem with "nothing should be a clichè", is that it has become SO overplayed, it has inherently BECOME a clichè in and of itself. Add to that the blindingly obvious agenda's that filmakers happily brag about, and it's just become unsatisfying, mean spirited garbage.....

[@chronica6457]

Isn't George RR Martin the biggest Tolkien fanboy ever? When you have a story that's massively influenced by something, and then you ditch those influences halfway through it's not gonna turn out very well, now is it DnD?

[@Hero_Of_Old]

I would say its more the idea of subverting traditional values and concepts of heroism. Teaching everyone that being a degenerate, manipulating and decieving people is how you succeed.

[@trevorp8124]

The thing about subversion is that it still requires *some* buildup; it can't just be something you pulled out of thin air at the 11th hour. Using a red herring / maybe-too-obvious set of foreshadowing to create the expectations, and then running that in parallel with another more subtle set of foreshadowing that ends up subverting it, is actually really satisfying, both for people who "called it", and people who didn't, who can then look back and go "Oh YEAHHHHHH". Case in point, the Red Wedding: you knew Walder Frey was a scummy dude who'd been slighted in a pretty major way, but at the same time you're presented with the expectation that Guest Rights are a thing that everyone holds sacred (and have seen depicted numerous times before). So you assume "Ok, WF will probably be salty and drop a few un-subtle jabs at the Starks as the night progresses, but otherwise grit and bear it, and maybe sell them out or undermine them later." So when he does not do that, and just murders everyone on the spot, it's shocking, but you look back and go "...ok yep, I suppose that makes sense".

[@nont18411]

Yeah they forgot that Walder Frey had something to do with Robb Stark EVER SINCE SEASON ONE so having his team killed Robb makes sense because they have history and Walder Frey is known to be opportunistic as fuck. But in case of Arya and Night King, they have no history together what so ever. What they did was sacrificing the plot integrity for shock value and cheap sense of female empowerment. Oberyn’s head was blown up and Robb got shanked multiple times, having his head cut off and had a spear through his anus so that they can mount his wolf’s head on it yet still has more structural integrity than a plot of this show.

[@boobah5643]

It's also obvious in hindsight that while Frey did the deed, it was Tywin's plan. Lannister arranged for Robb's wife (a grave insult of not only breaking Robb's word to Frey but for a woman who brought _nothing_ to their cause; implication being that the Freys were worth _less_ than Robb's new in-laws) and assured the cantankerous old goat that he'd forgive his part in Robb's Rebellion in exchange for taking the Young Wolf's head. And, of course, "The Rains of Castamere" is Tywin's signature revenge song.

[@MrBrachiatingApe]

A twist should be unforeseeable before and inevitable after; granted, it's nearly impossible to do that in the age of Reddit, sure, but midwit idiots--midiots--like D&D know the first part yet don't take the second and more important half seriously. I mean, how else to explain the sheer laziness of all of JJ Abram's "twists"? He expects to able to handwave the explanation, for Christ's sake. But then, he doesn't build his twists in as integral parts of the story...he just throws "mystery boxes" in at the end of every episode, doesn't he? If you want an actually satisfying example of this sort of twist/plot/ending, check out Tad Williams' Dragonbone Chair series--Memory, Sorrow, Thorn I think is the actual series name, and Dragonbone Chair the name of the first book. This was GRRM 7 or 8 years before GRRM, except Tad actually finished his series at the original length he'd projected. But yeah, best "OH SHIT! THAT'S WHAT THAT ALL MEANS?! OHMIGOD, OF COURSE--THAT'S WHAT'S BEEN GOING ON THE ENTIRE TIME! DAAAAAMN!!!" Or so I thought when younger, anyway. There were even a few unexpected deaths, though one was sadly an unexpected _fake_ death.

[@1Dreamking]

@@MrBrachiatingApe Memory, Sorrow and Thorn will forever be my favorite Fantasy Trilogy. It's amazing! (Even though I barely remember it now (after all these years) and what actually happens, just a few things here and there). Need to re-read it some of these days.

[@MrBrachiatingApe]

@@1Dreamking It's great shit, man. I was super lucky getting introduced to it; my brother and Tad were friends from playing basketball at the Y, so he picked up Tailchaser's Song early on and got the hardback of DBT when it came out. Tad came over to my parents' house for dinner a number of times when I was a kid, and I would go on to see him many times at book signings and events and such. One of the nicest, funniest people you'll ever meet, and my God, he wrote the hell out of that first Osten Ard trilogy!

[@och70]

The position that Az is sitting in through most of this clip lines up perfectly with the desktop background artwork of MauLer at the bar. That is fucking brilliant.

[@chainsawsubtlety9828]

He was holding that drink out to Chrissie for 10+ minutes, but she was not having it.

[@thehermitman822]

Can't be unseen now 😆

[@thehermitman822]

@Mr. Shark Tooth Dat's da toof

[@JoshWise1010]

Better ending. Jon charges the night king and the zombie dragon burns him mid stride. The night king turns away, but still hears Jon so turns back around. Jon charges out of the flames, fully nude with his sword ablaze and strikes him down.

[@AnimationVault]

Right. Make use of that Targaryen blood.

[@JoshWise1010]

@@AnimationVault and scares the shit of Danny, who now knows there is no question of his parentage. He’s a true Targaryen and now a threat to her claim.

[@רועיטרייבטש]

It would have been very cool but if I remember correctly in the first book Jon burned his own hand throwing a lantern on a wight, which proves he is not immune to fire

[@JoshWise1010]

@@רועיטרייבטש wouldn’t be the first time D&D forgot something

[@karlfranzemperorofmandefil5547]

@@רועיטרייבטש that's because Targaryens aren't actually fireproof. Danny does not survive because she is fireproof but because as a Targaryen she is a witch and she sacrifices someone's else's life to safe hers (the many faced god has a price after all). It works in the show too and Danny actually burns herself in the books too. But everytime she's burned like that she burns other people either during it or directly before it (same with her dragons, she kills 4 people. One to pay for herself 3 for the dragons ).

[@NickNapoli]

I think this “surprise twist” ending really got popular with the ending of “The Six Sense.”

[@mikeyh0]

And then came "Signs". With a twist of a different flavor. One that made zero sense. From "The Sixth Sense" to "The Non Sense"

[@ramonserna8089]

I think is a common trope, especially in detective novels and such. It just been overused by very incompetent film makers lately.

[@derrickwilliams1210]

Then followed by Saw, which was my personal fav twist ending

[@Raskolnikov70]

The Sixth Sense, Fight Club, The Matrix, The Thirteenth Floor - all of those plot twist/unreliable narrator movies came out around the same time in 1999-2000 and did pretty well. They've had an outsized effect on movies ever since.

[@shan4680]

Yes but the Sixth Sense as we know, actually took time to set it up and so when you look back at it a second time, you can see how they did it as opposed to pulling it completely out of thin air. (See also Twelve Monkeys, The Usual Suspects etc etc ...)

[@Jasonwizz1]

The set up for John was sweet. The battle of the Basterds his first encounter with the night king at that fishing village and just how fast shit goes side ways with undead rising up with everyone you lose. Trying to get allies can get you murdered at the wall cause of ideologs. Its a wasted chance.

[@holysecret2]

It would have been better, still would have sucked overall though. The entire episode (and whatever led up to it) was screwed up in terms of logic and character actions.

[@BlazingOwnager]

Westworld season 1 was such a great show with so much thought put into, it's shocking how bad it fell down the hole. The writers got really really salty when the 'two time period' twist got figured out but like you said, it was a GOOD thing that people figured it out. It meant there was enough clues to make it happen and not only that, it tied in flawlessly with the narrative and the perspective of unaging robots that can access any memory like it is happening right then.

[@MadsPeterIversen]

It would have been so much in the spirit of the show, that when Cercei decided not to help at Winterfell, the army of the dead should have won and killed everyone and then the dead would have marched on to King's Landing and suddenly we'd root for Cercei. Now that's a true subversion of expectations. And then Cercei would be killed and they'd march on and lay waste to Dorne and the last shot from the series would be the night king standing at the southern most tip of Westerous with his army behind him... The end!

[@thedachmo]

Nice to see you here Mads, love your photography!

[@white0thunderwhite0thunder71]

Better than what we got.

[@TheSupart91]

Or cercei uses wild fire and wipes out the army of the dead 🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️ unexpectedly Bein the hero

[@MadsPeterIversen]

@@thedachmo thanks a lot, David :)

[@daistoke1314]

A better, more memorable ending than the rubbish we got.

[@exneranium1]

The jump the shark moment for me was when they didn't have the courage to kill Tormund when they were north of the wall. They even set it up, then chickened out.

[@johnnyskinwalker4095]

Agreed! that was around the time like they lost their balls into killing characters. It stopped being Game of Thrones. We could say the same about Jaime and Bronn when they faced the dragon. Not to mention even if Jaime is my favorite character, him dying there would have been far better than dying the way he did with Cersei.

[@TheSchaef47]

@@johnnyskinwalker4095 yeah, but how great was it, though, to end the episode with him sinking deep into the murky depths of the river, then begin the next episode with Bronn reaching down to lift him out of like knee deep water like in Prince of Thieves.

[@EvilDoresh]

@@johnnyskinwalker4095 I feel like most - if not _all_ - of these "Everyone can die" shows eventually _do_ start handing out plot armor.

[@johnnyskinwalker4095]

@@TheSchaef47 lol Yea but for the greater good his death would have been better than Bronn pulling him from the river for one short scene. We have to sacrifice the cheap easy pleasures for the good of the show. Imagine if Jaime die then you have Tyrion being pissed at Dany questioning her more. You have this tension. And wondering what Tyrion is gonna do.

[@johnnyskinwalker4095]

@@EvilDoresh the issue is that the makers of the show forgot what the show was about. It became a Marvel show with one liners and big special effects.

[@loumencken9644]

The Drinker has said more than once that the end of the battle with the Night King should have been the end of GoT. I totally disagree, because if it had been, we might have missed the scenes with the committee meeting to decide the future of the Seven Kingdoms. And if you want gripping drama and heart-pounding suspense, nothing beats politicians having a committee meeting! I was on the edge of my seat the entire time!

[@jiggycalzone8585]

Its the only way to know how diverse the committee is!!

[@Tyler_W]

You're obviously being facetious, but I actually agree to some extent. The White Walkers shouldn't have been the end because they're little more than a plot device to drive the story. The story itself is about "the game of thrones." We can argue over how it should have been executed, but the general direction they were going was creatively sound. It was just poorly handled.

[@ronniedio7013]

Hey what's better than a good story

[@david3551]

And the Poland Spring water bottle.

[@poiuyt975]

You had me in the first part, I'm not gonna lie. :D

[@nont18411]

Breaking Bad is a pinnacle of storytelling because it wasn’t obsessed with subverting expectations. The twists were used sparingly but in an effective way to move the plot forward and when it’s a thing that everyone knows will happen, it played with the consequences and made it overboard EXCEEDING our expectations. That’s why the fans feel satisfied with how the show ends and still talking about it in a positive light until these days.

[@davefan16]

@trueblueprussian 23 Ummmmm

[@thespidermanoftheottomanempire]

@trueblueprussian 23 One of the best TV shows produced by the Americans

[@kri249]

The second last season felt satisfying but the final season felt contrived. For the cases that were circumstantial everything worked too perfectly. All the nameless bad guys were killed off in the gunfire except the two major villains that Walter and Jessie each had a grudge against. And conveniently got their revenged. It was still a good enough ending but didn't feel natural.

[@chrisscott3071]

@@kri249 that's the difference though between reality and what's satisfying to the audience. And hell they were bleeding on the floor dying just not yet dead

[@nont18411]

@@kri249 It has a thematic purpose though. Both Walter and Jesse need to kill their worst version of themselves (Jack and Todd) first before settling the difference between each other.

[@mrbigglezworth42]

I don’t want unexpected events. I want stories that are internally consistent. Life is already filled with unexpected events I can’t always account for, I don’t need my entertainment to do the same.

[@wojak-sensei6424]

It's like I'm playing a game with the writer, only that the premise is that I'm not allowed to win. It's peak cynicism in storytelling.

[@Shoxic666]

@@wojak-sensei6424 Yes. It's like Holmes and Moriarty playing a great game of chess, detective and his quarry, only for Moriarty to pull out an AK-47 literally from his asshole and gun Holmes down before Watson karate-chops Moriarty's head clean off. It insults the game of clues, foreshadowing, deduction and attention to detail that the writer plays with the audience, making the audience feel stupid and the writer look stupider.

[@zatchbell5678]

@@Shoxic666 first of all, I agree completely and excellent point. Second, you near sent me to the hospital laughing at that mental scene, so thank you, I needed that

[@Shoxic666]

@@zatchbell5678 Thx haha

[@MrBaallard]

Yes that's the point of foreshadowing and a complicated story threads coming together is the satisfactions of seeing the threads pull together. Babylon 5 season 3 and 4 were so satisfying watching all the setup from seasons 1-3 come together in a way that made since. For example in season 1 we know two main characters would end at each others throat, but the surprise was that they were friend at the end and it was a mercy killing not the enemy's that started as. It sad in 5 mins the group spit balled several different ideas that were better than what was on HBO.

[@thehussarsjacobitess85]

"Are you there my friend?" I gasped at who came out from behind the curtain. 😲

[@SoulSoundMuisc]

To say nothing of the various character arcs and their development through the story. J'kar began the series as a "bloodthirsty pirate" (I know, over simplification) and by the end of the series he was pious, collected, and a religious leader to his people; he accomplished so much by casting his hate aside, but that was a very, very long road he had to take to get there. Even Londo wasn't the 'bad guy'. There was SO much going on. His disillusion, his boredom, his desire to 'do right by his people', to want to steer them away from decay and back to greatness. His greed. His hubris. He can be played off as being just some oafish, pompous imperialistic baddy, but he is a far more complicated character. Truly, the interactions between those two characters MADE that show. At least for me.

[@Gunleaver]

The funny thing about the Red Wedding in the novels, was that it was NOT a surprise. It was foreshadowed early on. It happened in book 3. In book 2, Danerys has a vision in the warlock HQ of a feast where all the feasters are slaughtered, and a dead king with wolf's head sits in the high seat. Theon is sleeping in Ned's bed in Winterfell when he has a dream attending a feast where all his old comrades from fighting with the Starks in the first book/season are mortally wounded, along with other dead people from the backstory, and suddenly Robb and Grey Wind come for him, covered with bloody wounds. Two different characters make obscure and allegorical prophecies of the Red Wedding earlier in Book 3. Catelyn in the point of view character for Robb's plotline, and in every chapter of the book, it's raining and the story is full or portents and signs of doom. Roose Bolton's heel turn is heavily foreshadowed in his meeting with Jaime and Brienne, and by what we see of Ramsey in book 2 with Theon (none of it torture porn, I should note). Arya is Roose Bolton's cupbearer at Harrenhal (NOT Tywin's, because the wealthiest lord in Westeros, and a former hand of the king, descended from one of the oldest and highest-ranking bloodlines in the realm would NEVER have fond chats with a servant girl), and one of the first things he does when taking control of the castle is go out hunting wolves, including a pair of pups in the same book where Ramsey convinces Theon to murder two boys and present their bodies as Bran and Rickon to cover their escape. From the beginning, the Freys are presented as treacherous and untrustworthy. They are almost all described as looking like weasels. Their castle is known as "The Crossing" as in "Walder Frey is the Lord of the Crossing" and it is two castles at either end of a bridge. People casually call the castle "the Twins" because the castles are identical. In other words, Walder is Lord of a *double crossing.* They take two of Walder's grandsons as foster children, like Ned fostered under Jon Arryn with Robert, to have them befriend Brand and Rickon, but Bran doesn't get along with them because they are bullies and don't even care about their families. When they get a letter telling them that their uncle died in battle, they are both happy, because it moves them one step closer to being Walder's heirs. They play a game called Lord of the Crossing, which works like King of the Hill, where it is okay to lie as long as you say the word "mayhaps" and when Robb apologizes to Walder for jilting his daughters, Walder uses the word mayhaps when accepting his apology. One foodie blogger described how she realized that the Freys were about to start their treachery from a description of the food being served at the wedding feast, because it clearly was prepared without care or effort, since they saw no sense in wasting food on people they were about to kill. The whole point of the Red Wedding was that it was supposed to feel like a tragedy, where you can see it coming a mile away, but the heroes are trapped and doomed no matter what. It's a huge shock to the characters, because murdering your guests at a feast is a major taboo in their culture. Their society relies on the lords to all be warriors with their own armies to protect -their status and privileges- the realm & commoners, so they end up fighting a lot of wars when they have disputes. They NEED to be able to have ways of safely conducting peace talks and sacrosanct methods of making peace, like marriages that turn warring parties into a shared family. If a marriage and the familial bonds created by it don't mean anything, why would anyone trust that as a means for making peace? If a guest cannot expect safety and protection from his host, how can he trust his host enough to let his guard down? If your guests cannot let down their guard, how can you let them under your roof? And if you can't respect promises of truces or guest right or the duties of a host, how can you sit down together to negotiate an end to war or trust an agreement establishing a peace? But that would be too much work to set up, and it wouldn't generate the same buzz at the watercoolers on Monday morning, so why go to all the trouble?

[@killianmiller6107]

The thing about writing a story solely upon subverting expectations is that it only works until you begin to expect the subversions. It makes it less entertaining for rewatches too when you know how it goes. There needs to be something deeper than surprises to keep people coming back.

[@JamesRDavenport]

Yep. As I say time and time and time again...have a deeper PURPOSE to your story! Those are the ones that last.

[@EatWave]

At this point, it would subvert expectations for a writing team to bring a long running story to its logical conclusion.

[@SpecialAgentBillMaxwell]

The problem is that I expect the ending to be quality storytelling, and that's the expectation they wind up subverting. They're doing nothing that elevates the story. Their "surprise" ending is always expected because it reaffirms some political agenda of the writing staff.

[@seabreeze4559]

the ironic misogyny of women + power = insanity

[@rael2099]

If you watch the show carefully, all those subverting expectations moments with Ned, Rob, Tyrion, etc. always were consequences for their actions, ALWAYS. Jon Snow getting slaughtered was also because of the consequences of his actions, but just because GRRM built their stories and characters so well, we never expected they suffered because of the choices they made. We rooted for them. Then Dumb and Dumber took over and suddenly anything goes and reward Arya because yas qween slay! and good old Hollywood p3d0s. I'm still in shock about this series. It was as shocking and tragic as the red wedding to watch this series die of a slow death and a scream. I think is a perfect example how woke entertainers ruin everything so badly.

[@Tenebris_Sint]

If you guys haven't seen Mr. Robot... watch it yesterday. Amazing show throughout, written specifically for 4 seasons so it didn't drag on for the money, but the twist(s) at the end of season 4 are the best in all television. I also recommend Dark on Netflix.

[@burningdog2]

Dark is just incredible, highly recommended - and not a superhero in sight.

[@Nickle_King]

On the "Happy Ending" of Game of Thrones. I've said this in other comment sections, and I'll repeat it here. Game Of Thrones is NOT realistic fantasy. It's just gritty fantasy. The ending of this show should have been that the armies could not hole back the White Walker army. Anyone on the front lines should have been slaughtered, and a siege of the Wall should have taken a few episodes, if not a whole season of time, before the Wall came crumbling down. The last season should have been everyone running to the far reaches of the continent, desperately retreating from the oncoming death. Have the characters alive at this point deal with all the pain, all the schemes, all the death, all the loss, EVERYTHING was for nothing in the face of Death itself. Maybe make it that humanity survives, but only in mountains where the passages are too treacherous for the White Walkers to pass through, or in the DEEP desert where the White Walkers can't stand the heat, and are severely weakened. That would have been an incredibly Game Of Thrones ending, I feel. Almost Watchmen-esq, now that I think of it, only without the hope afterwards. Hell. Have have the Night King sit on the Iron Throne in victory. A ruler with full control of a completely obedient and unified Westeros is finally ruling.

[@johnnyskinwalker4095]

You said GoT is gritty, not realistic but your take is pretty realistic to me. It would have made a ton of sense. lol The way they did away with all the White Walkers so easily was very Disney-ish. Like they kill the bad guy and poof like magic everything disappears, the threat adverted. Another way it could have ended is finding out what the WW were really all about, like maybe the men broke a trust they had with them and Bran communicate with the NK and makes a deal with him.

[@Sorain1]

A take on that could well be framing the story as the history the survivors remember, the lesson that you need to look beyond your own interests.

[@SDesWriter]

So how about this? Jon Snow escapes the dragon just in time to show up and block the night Kings attempt to kill a wounded Arya. He's fighting but obviously overmatched until he's beaten down to the ground deflecting blow after blow only to have Theon show up and save him long enough for John to land the killing blow. Theon can live or die but the point is that he's redeemed himself, John is the hero, and Arya at least kept him busy for a couple minutes which allowed John to get there. Then they reach King's landing and the dragons destroy the entire fleet which gives Tyrion a chance to persuade Dani for one more chance and he's finally able to persuade his brother and sister to surrender and leave with nothing. The last scene before they cut to the gratuitous celebrations and epilogue is Jamie and Cersei getting on a ship bound for somewhere unknown with nothing but the clothes on their back but she finally has a chance to be a mother and maybe change. I'll take that ending over what we got any day of the week.

[@synapse913]

My headcanon involves the battle at Wintfell being a disaster for the living. Dany dies from the ice dragon, Jon faces off with the Night King and dies, and the remaining people have to flee south to get away. Jaime beseeches Cersei for shelter and help, she refuses and orders the northern refugees slaughtered. Jaime finally accepts what he has to do and kills Cersei. Upon doing so, his golden arm bursts into flames creating Lightbringer; Jaime is Azor Ahai and it’s revealed via Bran that Jaime and Cersei are the Mad King’s children. Tyrion is truly Tywin’s son despite theories to the contrary. His only son. Jaime leads the fight against the Night King and again lives up to his moniker of “Kingslayer.” Oh well. At least we will always have “yOu KnOw TBH, I nEvEr ReAlLy CaReD aBoUt ThE pEoPlE.”

[@TheSchaef47]

That should be a solid plan as long as Dani doesn't just forget the fleet is there.

[@kurtisknechtel3728]

Fuck, that would have been actually really good. Jaime and Cersei's child, born of incest outside of Westeros and having to leave exiled due to the ruling family being cast down in a rebellion, feeling like Westeros would have been his/her birthright. Would have been a direct parallel to Dany at the beginning of the series and show that as much as things change, some things remain the same. I don't even know if that's what you intended, but that's good storytelling there

[@joshuamagruder2241]

I don't even think these people think they're being clever when they attempt to "subvert expectations" I think they're genuinely just incapable, and subverting expectations makes for a pretty convenient excuse for incompetence.

[@briang.2218]

This is one of the most irritating things about the sort of referential "post-modern" streak in a lot of pop culture. If you step out of the convention to reflect on it after having gained a profound and in-depth understanding of it (thereby making your reflection all the more valuable), that's great. But at a certain point it becomes just an excuse to not try to engage with the convention in good faith. I get the feeling that a lot of cases where you have subversion of a genre that works, the creators are genuinely enamored with the genre's conventions -- that's why they care enough and know enough to reflect on it meaningfully.

[@candyjack3659]

What I never get is why does it bother creators so much if spoilers get out? People who don't care if the twist is spoiled will read up and watch anyways, and those that don't won't be looking up spoilers so won't hear and enjoy the twist. Like I was surprised by who died in No Way Home because I didn't bother watching reviews of the film, so I didn't see the spoiler on it.

[@holysecret2]

The main danger is stumbling across spoilers by accident. Isn't the point of reviews that people can watch them and decide whether the movie is worth their time and money? So inserting spoilers in a review is a bad idea in my opinion, at least not without a spoiler warning. Otherwise I think it's more like a discussion or critique for those who have watched it or are interested without caring about spoilers.

[@candyjack3659]

@@holysecret2 Yeah I guess that's the counter argument.

[@lukeroberson2115]

@@holysecret2 I think spoilers in reviews can be excused if you make it clear there are spoilers. Which is why I treasure the spoiler-free reviews that told me to watch The Batman.

[@watchm4ker]

It's because movies and shows have been leaning so hard on unexpected twists and swerves, there's a fear that if people know in advance, they simply won't watch. Which says more about the skills of their writers, really.

[@RanMouri82]

They don't understand fans. Plot speculation is part of the fun.

[@ZaklogtheGreat]

The ideal twist is when people didn't know it was coming at all, but when they see it, say, "Oh my God! I should have known. It was all right there!" Brandon Sanderson does this amazingly in book 3 of Mistborn.

[@Snoop_Dugg]

What twist? Are you referring to Harmony?

[@ZaklogtheGreat]

@@Snoop_Dugg Vin’s earring. I don’t want to say more to not spoil it.

[@Snoop_Dugg]

@@ZaklogtheGreat Ahhhh I see what you mean... yeah that was great

[@silverscorpio24]

A twist in writing should be poignant, rare, and requires proper buildup. Writers today treat it as if being surprised for no reason is supposed to be dramatic or funny.

[@boobah5643]

So, are they stupid because they can't recognize foreshadowing and the various other hints sprinkled in before the twist even after the twist is revealed, or are they stupid because they think those hints are unimportant and 'spoil' the reveal? The Red Wedding was a surprise because it broke story preconceptions; we'd been conditioned by *other* stories to believe Robb had plot armor. Why it wasn't: The demonstrated, fragile pride of Tywin Lannister and Walder Frey Roose Bolton's ambition and ruthlessness. Robb's 'accidental' marriage to a Lannister vassal; especially when you consider what Tywin does to his vassals that piss him off. Robb's demonstrated tendency to alienate allies to maintain his honor; most notably the Karstarks.

[@yewtewbstew547]

@@boobah5643 When it comes to the writing in things like the later GoT seasons and the Star Wars sequels I suspect their rationale for incorporating many of the twists was simply that the audience finds them exciting and therefore will continue watching. And that's it, that's the full extent of the thought process. They don't consider the build up, or even logical or thematic consistency important. Only the moment, and the audience's reaction to it. After The Red Wedding GoT developed a bit of a mainstream reputation for being the show that does things you don't expect, and I think they just ran with that once the GRRM material ran out with little to no concern as to whether or not what they were writing actually made sense. I can't really think of another explanation. Some people suggested the writers did a rush job on purpose because they had some Star Wars writing deal lined up but that just seems _too_ stupid lol.

[@jimluebke3869]

Am I the only one who thinks LotR has kind of a twist at the end, where Frodo doesn't actually destroy the Ring, but claims it for his own? Then the grimy little creature actually gets the job done (even if it's not an act of heroism)? "The pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many" was a masterful piece of buildup, by the way.

[@jimluebke3869]

@@boobah5643 If you thought that ANYONE had plot armor by the time the Red Wedding rolled around, I have to question which series you were reading.

[@boobah5643]

@@jimluebke3869 It would feel more like a twist if the ring didn't immediately end up in the lava anyway, and there had been lots of foreshadowing about the ring taking its toll on Frodo besides.

[@michiganscythian2445]

I thought it would have been better if Arya had momentarily distracted the Night King, allowing Bran to skin change into him. Night King thrashes around, trying to get Bran out of his head, Bran struggles to maintain control and then Jon dispatches the Night King. Team work, both Bran and Jon who had story lines connected to him would have a hand in destroying him My other thought would be if Jon had an epic battle with the Night King, gets defeated. Night King goes to slay Bran and Bran pulls out that Cat’s Paw dagger and stabs the Night King (yeah, basically the ending of Robin Hood Prince of Thieves) Another minor thing that could have made that episode better would be when Sam was getting dog piled by the wights and Jon leaves him, Jorah kills a White Walker and all the wights around Sam drop. Shows how Sam survived, pay off for Sam giving that sword to Jorah and Jorah gets a badass moment before he dies

[@b.s.warren8483]

Drinker-Senpai is right about all the fan theories. It happened with Gravity Falls- there were so many fan theories about what who wrote the journals, and someone eventually predicted that Grunkle Stan had a twin brother who wrote the journals. The writers for the show handled it really well though. Instead of changing the ending, they leaked a picture on Reddit of the show’s resident homeless hillbilly writing the journals to throw people off.

[@lukeroberson2115]

And even then, they incorporated the fake leak well, having him be the author's old assistant.

[@garanceadrosehn9691]

At this point in the major movie industry, what really "subverts our expectations" is when we watch a well-written story. It does still happen, but it has become very rare.

[@thesprocketscientist]

The twist needs to be more meaningful to the story than the audience's current assumptions about the narrative up until that point, else it serves no purpose. This is why Luke's parentage in Star Wars elevated the series, while Rey's butchered it. The right direction for her arc would've been dramatic irony- for us to know for a fact that Luke is her father, and for us to see how he does not want to fail/disappoint her as one, so he chooses secrecy. His character choices should have directly juxtaposed Vader's from before. Edit: slightly unrelated, but wouldn't have minded at all to see Star Wars borrow from Avatar, and have Luke learn how to rob the Sith of their force abilities. Suits his character, just as it does Aang's, though I would've loved to see him defeat Snoke, and reserve the Aang trick for Kylo. (I should've used examples from GOT, but don't care)

[@seabreeze4559]

Rey is Arya in this scenario. Arya should've died in a trial by combat with Littlefinger, who was hinted to be from BRAVOS in like season 1. Sansa couldn't do shit because he'd proven his innocence by winning. Nobody ever saw him fight as an adult. He had decades of practice. It FITS.

[@talithakoum3922]

They could never have topped Vader being Luke's dad and should never have tried. Just make it clear from the outset that Rey's parents are dead and she's made peace with that. Poe and Ben being brothers, on the other hand, would have been interesting.

[@doubledee8677]

@@seabreeze4559 That's a fucking terrible idea, you're no better than the writers. Littlefinger isn't from Braavos, and he's not a fighter, he's a schemer.

[@TheSchaef47]

Classic example: I guessed the end of Shutter Island in the first like 20 minutes of the movie. For me that took a lot of the tension out of the film. Scorsese fans, however, will argue it's not about the twist or the ending but just about the construction and execution of the story from start to finish.

[@CedarSummit]

"Planet of the Apes" defines the apex quality of a twist ending. Until that moment, the story is already great. Then the final scene re-frames the entire story and leaves the viewer breathless. A cherry on an already delicious sundae. The screenwriter, Rod Serling, was a master. Bottom line: great films don't need a twist ending. Just great storytelling.

[@zkeletonz001]

Theon fighting with Jon Snow against the night king would have been a great Zuko-helping-the-Avatar kind of moment.

[@dbsommers1]

An 'unexpected twist' is fine if executed properly and there is a reason behind it. Perfect example is "Jacks Back' with James Spader. It starts out with Spader a protagonist doctor who stumbles upon a murder. He gets jumped and left to hang to death. You wonder how he'll get out of it since there's still an hour left. He doesn't and dies. Total shock. Movie then is about his failure of a brother solving his death. But today writers simply do it because they can't make the story interesting.

[@JetEngine787]

Thank God for this whole group. I feel less insane knowing I'm not alone

[@heraldofwar]

A twist can make or break a movie like the sixth sense or The Usual Suspects, it does not work so well in a series when you have seasons of build up and setup of characters. Doing something random with zero build up or even a hint is not a good idea.

[@karlfranzemperorofmandefil5547]

Honestly this shows why the only unsuspected twist that's good is one where you immediately go: "i should have seen that coming." Like the red wedding. On a re read or watch it's painfully obvious what's gonna happen.

[@isakaldazwulfazizsunus7564]

Issue is a twist ending has to be earned. And lots of writers don't know how to earn it.

[@russwilliams4777]

It's an interesting point about _Game of Thrones_ - it subverted our expectations by setting up Ned Stark as a conventional hero and then killing him in the first season... but then it has to reinforce our expectations by having Jon Snow become a conventional hero and save the day, and that's why everyone hated the actual ending

[@Ellebeeby]

And everything we see about Ned shows *exactly* why he dies.

[@russwilliams4777]

@@Ellebeeby Yup. GRRM, for all his faults, really is a master of character-driven storytelling.

[@stormhawk31]

The best way for them to subvert our expectations would've been for them NOT to subvert our expectations

[@hariman7727]

I think the twist should have been that a random soldier would be the one to kill the night King while Jon was getting his ass beat. But the bigger twist is that everything after that goes as expected and there's another season of dealing with cersei.

[@Trazynn]

The Ozark takes the cake. That show doesn't have a story, it just has a setting in which shocking 'twists' happen. A character becomes too complicated or too much of a threat? Unexpected death! Badabing Badaboom!

[@tommythompson7941]

Thumb's up for the Bada Bing (Satin Dolls) reference.

[@roymunson1]

@@rhelerinnon5553 you're being a bit argumentative here. I totally see his point. so many people die in that show in ways you don't expect and in a complete plot break. it's almost Coen brothers'esque in how people can just suddenly die or get killed when you least expect it. yes the basis of the show is what you said, but there is no control on how the plot "should" be played out which is what makes it so exciting and gripping to watch.

[@michaelriddick7116]

There was a "leak" that came out about 8 or 10 weeks before GoT returned, and they were soooo good! Especially when compared to what we got ... short run down. Dead win at Winterfell (Brienne dies with Jamie) Living retreat to King's Landing. Dead murder everyone from Winterfell to King's Landing and lay siege to the city. Cersei is VERY pregnant and goes into labor in the Red Keep. Clegane Bowl... The dead breach the city (many characters die) Jon Snow and Daenerys retreat to the throne room and are confronted by the Night King. Night King and Jon fight but Jon is overpowered and knocked away next too his "Queen". They confess their love, and embrace. Jon, crying, plunges Longfang into her heart. Upon withdrawing it the sword (and Jon) erupt into flames. Jon has completed Melisendre's prophecy to become the Prince Who Was Promised; Azor Ahai and defeats the Night King. Tyrion finds Cersei died has in child birth, giving birth to a dwarf boy. That's what I can remember off top of my head. All of which was 1000% better than what we got imo ...

[@staciepaul]

Clearly, some thought has gone into allowing each person to finish their thought and giving folks a chance to talk. It really makes watching these videos unusual and refreshing. Thank you. Keep up the good work.

[@greenmonsterprod]

Unexpected twists can work very well, if they're well-written and make sense within the story. Rod Serling was a master of that sort of writing.

[@redmuskratt]

AZ is perfectly lined up with the animation in the background. I can't stop looking at it.

[@paranoyd70]

I'm so sick of "subverted writing"...because they ALWAYS pull that "subversion" BS in order to excuse piss-poor writing. We all expected the Night King to die, but they still killed him off. If subverting expectations was the goal, then why not have the Night King not only live but also conquer King's landing? Nah, its a stupid excuse to explain stupid (woke) writing.

[@samaelament]

I gotta say, the best example I've experienced of subverted expectations that could not have been predicted was in "Vlad Dracula and The Desolate One" by Kevin Michael Guest. It's my favorite depiction of Dracula with my favorite kind of ending. I suppose the only kind of person who could predict the ending is someone rather familiar with Christian belief.

[@johnphips9290]

I like these to the point clips from the long discussions. While rambling with co-creators and friends might be some peoples thing some of us watch for specific things, (subjects or topics of concern) and don't have the time or patience to sit through a 3 hour video with 10 minutes of commentary relevant to the headline. By the way something needs to be done to keep commentary on the panels to be more organized in a way that allows everyone to have their say. Just as an example, AZ too often likes to talk over others and comes across as rude. Probably cause of time and distance messing with the way things get presented but just my impression.

[@jornavyr2459]

The Departed had a great subversion of expectations. I definitely didn't see Leo getting killed, and my jaw hit the floor when he did.

[@ValiantInstance]

I loved when the writers of Rick and Morty turned this concept on it's head by destroying all the fan theory endings in the train episode.

[@wojak-sensei6424]

Great writing makes predictable scenarios satisfying. No amount of subversive elements would ever suffice to writing being technically sound.

[@bushf430]

They've hit the nail on the head here, within the first 15 minutes of The Fellowship of the Ring you knew it would be Frodo/Sam that would eventually destroy the one ring, it never made the next 12 hours of the story any less badass! Same with Star Wars and Luke eventually fighting Vada, going back to GOT and the demise of the NK I'd of changed the final scene slightly by having Arya still stab the NK but nothing happen to him, he smiles then buries the dagger in her heart, that would of been a genuine oh f**k moment as then your thinking what the hell does kill them.

[@jamescoulter886]

Remember Mauler making a great point about The Departed in his TLJ critique. Bloody amazing stuff, well written twist, had the amazing combination of being absolutely devastating but “wow that was amazing” too..

[@jamietodd2560]

The mark of a good plot twist is "rewatchability." If you can still enjoy the story just as much (or more) a second time, then it was a good plot twist. It made sense and rewatching reveals bits of plot that seemed unimportant but were really setting up the twist. (E.g. The Shawshank Redemption, The Sixth Sense, Mission: Impossible, Upgrade) If a second viewing is worse because the ending is not foreshadowed or doesn't justify itself with regard to the rest of the story, then it's a bad plot twist. GOT lost its rewatchability because the characters don't get the conclusions the previous 7 seasons had been setting up, and the twists were made in spite of the foreshadowing of other conclusions, which makes watching again feel like a journey to nowhere.

[@PelemusMcSoy]

Twists seem to be so common these days that not having a twist is a twist in of itself. Say what you want about Destiny's plot, but I had expected The Speaker to be a hidden bad guy given how much "surprise villains" there were around 2014; it was oddly refreshing to know he and the rest of the Tower were allies, and the bad guys were bad guys.

[@hariman7727]

The unexpected twist has become more cliche than a jrpg game having the main religion of the land be either false or corrupted somehow.

[@P.T.S.E.]

In The Return of the Jedi, Vader turning against the Emperor was a good twist.

[@nickmitsialis]

Except, when Luke was screaming 'Father help me!' it was obviously gonna happen.

[@JohnDoe-wq5eu]

I always appreciate when people talk about subverting expectations and take a moment to throw m night shyamalan under the bus. A person known for throwing in twists whether they made sense or not simply because that was his whole schtick.

[@trevorpearlharbor5171]

"Subverting expectations" really just means "pissing off the audience".

[@briang3598]

One of the things that makes Brandon Sanderson great- he manages to have twists and turns, while also having a large fandom making speculations, and rather than specifically trying to avoid any of them being right, he instead goes for, something along the lines of, "You're close,", "Something like that," or, "Read and find out," if someone brings up a solid prediction during Q&As. In fact, I think he's may have even added small elements based on fan input/speculation.

[@saturn580]

GoT Seasons 1-4: "My expectations have been subverted by great writing." GoT Seasons 5-8: "My expectations of great writing have been subverted."

[@ettan5812]

Life took a turn for the worse around the time season 8 released so never got around to seeing it, kinda feels like a blessing in disguise at this point

[@fakshen1973]

Even hearing people discuss D&D's used toilet tissue writing and ending... it was just terrible. Shocker, they were supposed to go on and do some work with Disney. People with no vision for storytelling of their own just the other end of production... beautiful but soulless... devoid of any true expression.

[@aterriblesliceoftoast]

If the ending of a story is figured out, you could argue that the story has been well written. I’ve always felt that way, and that it’s about how you get to that ending, about what twists and turns the story takes along the way, that is the most important part.

[@cobra312004]

The writers for Game of Thrones somehow missed the fact that the Iron Throne was a red herring from the beginning. They made the climax the play for the throne by Dany, but the true threat was always the White Walkers. That's why everyone kept saying "Winter is coming" the entire F-ing series. The fact that the writers missed this or just failed to understand it is completely beyond me

[@EvilDoresh]

Pretty much everyone was preoccupied with a dick-waving contest while the _zombie apocalypse_ was marching south.

[@tylersmith9942]

A friend and I talked about this very thing when we heard of a manga artist changing the ending to their story. Can't remember what story, but it's a popular one. We came to the conclusion that if your fans predict the ending, then you did something right as a writer. Not that you were predictable, but that your clues leading to that ending made enough since to lead people there. In a sense, you're rewarding your audience by giving them that ending that they predicted. It makes them feel smarter for getting it correct.

[@DarthEvilicus]

Imagine how awful Star Wars would be if Princess Leia snuck into the throne room and stabbed the Emperor in the back

[@TheMasonator777]

Unless your story is a mystery or a detective story, the unexpected twist should be a vanishing rarity. Now it’s a LAW. This is great video. The unexpected twist needs to be overturned.

[@EvilDoresh]

It's almost like these writers see their fans in an _antagonistic_ light, trying to "outsmart" them by coming up with twists and turns that make no actual sense, just so they "don't see it coming". You don't _need_ to keep the fans guessing until the end. A good story is a good story, even if you know where it's headed. _Other_ countries, once again, understand this better. Take the shounen manga/anime _One Piece_ for example. Most of its story arcs follow the same basic formula. You can _always_ expect emotional flashbacks to flesh out characters more. You can _always_ expect some heroic sacrifice (where the hero turns out to have survived at the end of the arc) And you can _always_ expect the stakes and tension to rise exponentially as the final battle nears its end. Does it _detract_ form the story if you know these repeating plot beats? Not, it's still well written and _fun_

[@Rabbithole8]

Trope Anatomy does a great job on a related topic with his "Foreshadowing Is Not Character Development."

[@individual7046]

One rule of story writing I learned is that "when ever something is mentioned it should have purpose" For example if your story puts emphasis on a hatchet mounted on a wall then that hatchet should be used. What was the point on putting so much emphasis on John Snow and the Night King if that leads to nothing. Stories are fiction in the end strung along by considents that context a entire story.

[@Sorain1]

Funny thing about that is you _can_ have the axe's 'use' be to distract someone at the key moment when they reach for the axe, only to die to the dinner knife instead. You can indeed set up something for a payoff that isn't immediately obvious, but there has to be _some_ plot importance to the thing you set up. Some reason why the story went the way it did because of this thing you brought up, because otherwise why bring it up?

[@ShogunV]

Fans: we're expecting a great final season D&D: *Subverting Expectations*

[@JadeRunner]

There's two types of it: type A) where the unexpected thing actually makes perfect sense and fits with the story, the reason most of the audience didn't see it coming is because it was so clever and executed so well as to throw you off - like a magician using misdirection. And... Type B) where the unexpected twist is unexpected purely and simply because it is so fucking stupid you wouldn't expect any writer in their right mind to do it. Where the twist doesn't fit with the story at all, where it's shoehorned in there by a creatively bankrupt writer because he or she couldn't come up with anything better. Type A) the "surprise twist" was already conceived at the very inception of the story's creation. It's part of the story from the very beginning, your inability to see it coming a testament to how well the rest of the story was constructed around it in a way that was gripping and interesting in its own right AND managed to keep the surprise twist hidden. These movies are like puzzle boxes: the solution is there, you have everything you need to solve it, it's just very difficult. Type B) the "surprise twist" was conceived late in the story's creation, often right at the moment that segment of the story was being written or finalised. It was never originally part of the story, it was something thought up ad-hoc, it therefore doesn't fit with anything that came before it, ruins everything that comes after, typically doesn't make any sense, and is only there for the sake of being there, or so the writer can finish their story because they couldn't figure out a satisfying conclusion. These movies are like scratched CDs. You're listening to a song and then all if a sudden it jumps - you didn't expect the jump, did you?! No. No I didn't, because the jump was shlt, wasn't meant to be there and ruined the song I was listening to.

[@Bopperann]

GoT season 8 can be summed up by that scene of John Snow helplessly screaming at the dragon.

[@MajorSmurf]

Here's the thing I've watched so many shows over the years that I can predict where most shows are going. It's very rare a show ever outright surprises me. Usually if they do surprise me it's because the story twist was so bad that I'm disappointed I came up with a better twist. Some shows don't need twists to be a good show and there's a beauty in simplicity. Yes a murder mystery needs some twists but it's often easy to tell who the murderer is based on screen time. Often they overcomplicate a show so badly I think the writer gets himself caught in storyline knots and than forgets huge chunks of his/her story due to trying to be too clever.

[@WhiteManOnCampus]

That's what made Columbo such an engaging and beloved series: disregarding the witty and shockingly wholesome lieutenant, the episodes are set up that we know who the killer is and how they did it. The story is then a mystery of figuring out how Columbo solves the case, and the various characters' interactions.

[@EvilDoresh]

@@WhiteManOnCampus Indeed. Knowing the destination doesn't matter if you can enjoy the _journey_ instead.

[@rapscallionsith8152]

Yea, the "proper" way to subvert expectations is by creating something unexpected, not by destroying what is expected. But... "evil cannot create, only corrupt".

[@lynngreen7978]

There was no reason to bring Jon back from the dead. He served no purpose in the narrative of the last two seasons.

[@PorkFork]

Hey now, he did a real good job saying "he dun want it" and "shes muh queen". That and being a prop for his siblings political rises. Sansa and Bran both rose up and tossed his ass to the side to work a job that no longer has purpose.

[@lynngreen7978]

@@PorkFork The biggest thing that was specifically him, was winning the Battle of the Bastards. But there were any number of other characters that could have been written to lead the Stark faction against the Boltons.

[@mikepatton8691]

@@lynngreen7978 But he was losing the Battle of the Bastards until Sansa and her Knights of the Vale came in and completely turned things around. Jon Snow may have been a great swordsman, but he was naive and a horrible strategist.

[@Hudson.Mekeland]

Regarding Shyamalan, his surprises don't "come out of nowhere." That's why they work. His best executions are heavily foreshadowed. The trick is that you don't see it until repeat viewing. That's the difference. Rewatching GoT isn't going to make Arya killing the Night King make sense, because they never built up to it. It was obviously never intended. And that makes it truly "out of nowhere."

[@dr.vanhellsing]

When I heard what happened to the Night King I thought it was a joke; however, the moment I realized it was real. Well I couldn’t watch the show any longer! Killing the Night King like that was a massive failure. There should have been an epic battle and sword fight next to the iron throne. Instead some girl pulled out a tricky knife trick and ruined years of anticipation.

[@WhiteManOnCampus]

A great use of a twist ending that makes the entire story make so much more sense and brings everything together is the anime "Big O." I won't spoil the ending, because it's something I'd never seen done before, but it explains so many things that don't quite make sense in the world and does so not in a way that handwaves things but that helps you understand just why a lot doesn't make sense.

[@gaiusbaltar8915]

Okay, but D&D are plain wrong about how "subverting expectations" *technically* works. Subverting the expectations means to hide the *setup* of your twist in plain sight by using your audiences' familiarity with well-established tropes to divert the attention away from what is actually happening. In the terms of the red wedding, the story intentionally laid itself out like the classic fairy tale romance of true love winning against all odds - and that made us temporarily forget about the fact that "The Late" Walder Frey had, from the start, been introduced as an uncaring and opportunistic sociopath, a dangerous man that should not be underestimated in neither his ambition, nor his willingness to screw people over. *Subverting Expectations* means to subvert the expectations the audience has from *other works.* *IT DOES NOT MEAN SUBVERTING YOUR OWN FUCKING SETUP.*

[@nathanbartlett5841]

Just because people see where you’re foreshadowing is leading doesn’t mean it’s bad. In fact exactly the opposite it mean you told the story well and people care enough to put effort into trying to figure it out

[@ministerofdarkness]

The Usual Suspects! Oh wait that was a great movie with a good twist. I miss the 90s

[@JadeRunner]

You forgot the little girl charging at a literal zombie giant and taking it out. 🤣

[@AndrewJnsn]

Well I was confused when the main big bad boss, who is basically magic and considered the ultimate evil that could only be defeated by all the armies to ever exist, was offed by one girl all by herself It offed all the hype behind Games of Thrones too. The Night King was the hype of that show. It was incredibly shortsighted to cash that in on nothing but "OOOO LOOK A STRONG woMAN, I WISH THAT WAS ME IRL"

[@Lornext]

Imagine if Jon and Theon dueled the Night King at the end of that, it would have been so good.

[@sterling7]

I started having a bad feeling when Ygritte died in Jon Snow's arms during the battle at The Wall. The "Uh-oh... Things are not happening because of characters executing plausible cause-and-effect, or rational/self-interested actors carrying out their goals within the moment, but because of what the showrunners think makes for emotional drama" feeling. Sadly, the rest of the show executed that wrong-headed mission to the letter.

[@RanMouri82]

Was it the fact that Ygritte died in Jon Snow's arms, or another factor? Because that was in the books, too.

[@sterling7]

@@RanMouri82 Check again. I have a very strong memory that in the book, while Ygritte did die in that battle, she wasn't even close to Snow when she was killed. Quora, citing "A Storm of Swords", agrees with this: "He found Ygritte sprawled across a patch of old snow beneath the Lord Commander’s Tower, with an arrow between her breasts. The ice crystals had settled over her face, and in the moonlight it looked as though she wore a glittering silver mask. The arrow was black, Jon saw, but it was fletched with white duck feathers. Not mine, he told himself, not one of mine. But he felt as if it were."

[@genebaker511]

There's a difference between unexpected twist and suspense is the same as the bomb suddenly go off compare to seeing the bomb being planted early and waiting for it to go off.