The Double Empathy Problem in Asperger's Syndrome

[@PendulumCenter]

In my experience, those who fall anywhere on the Spectrum, especially those who are non-verbal and highly impacted, are extremely intuitive and empathic. People with Autism are grossly underestimated by our society.

[@gaetanklein-peakstatesther5867]

So true.

[@anniem2777]

Yes. I am a girl with high functioning Asperger’s so I’m pretty good at masking. However , I’ve found when I make friends with groups of girls they can be so bitchy for no reason, commenting on peoples appearance or the way they act. I would never do something like that because it’s so mean. Surely that’s a lack of empathy on their part, yet I’m supposedly the one that lacks empathy. I know that I have no filter sometimes and can offend, but I feel so guilty when I do.

[@Klonering]

@@anniem2777 If people are mean to other people in that way it is normally not a lack of empathy in my opinion. They are hurt inside. Possibly from a childhood trauma. So they are projecting. Humiliate others, to (artificially) elevate themself. Mosty because they lack self esteem and are insecure. And i mean that not judging. I for myself am not Innocent of such behavior.

[@anniem2777]

@@Klonering I disagree I’m afraid, the two are not mutually exclusive. I have suffered childhood trauma as a result of my neurodivergence and having a narcissistic parent. Yet, I wouldn’t treat someone in this manner. At least you can recognize your behaviour. However, this is a lack of empathy. The definition of empathy is the capacity to put yourself in someone else’s shoes. The subject of nasty gossip would be upset if they knew what a person was saying about them. Therefore, if you were to really have empathy you would know not to talk about someone like this because you could recognize and/or feel their distress.

[@Klonering]

@@anniem2777 Maybe i should have wrote unsolved or unaccounted childhood trauma. Well, and i assume its more of a lack of self awareness as lack of empathy. But i would never claim that these are mutually exclusive. It is probably always a mixture but lack of empathy is in my opinion not the primary factor. Because if you are very angry (for an example) and/or hurt, you would sometimes shout at other people or be mean, even if you normally aware that it would hurt them. But your emotional state "overrides" your reason and empathy. But again there is no black or white here. I don't mean that in a way "you are wrong". The emphasis is different i would say.

[@vociferonheraldofthewinter2284]

I'm so glad you addressed this. I scored nearly zero on 'empathy' on my test and it really hurt. I feel deeply for people. I want to help. I just have no idea HOW to do it right. We're not psychopaths, sociopaths, or narcissistic. We're just not good at doing or saying the right thing. And it's very unfair. I'm telling you now, after what I experienced after my son died, 99% of people struggle with the same issue. People have good intentions, want to offer comfort, but put their foot in their mouths when they try. I'm talking about "normal" people. If I weren't mature and understanding, I'd be carrying around a lot of hurt from the stupid things people said when they were trying to help me in my grief. The sad part? Most of them are absolutely obvious to their mistake. If you asked them, they'd say they handled it just fine. "Be thankful they found the body. There are parents who are left wondering for years." "Be sure that you keep the house clean, don't let yourself go, and have sex with your husband. Marriages don't survive the death of a child and he WILL resent you and leave you." "I have a psychic friend. She'll help you talk to him. The first session is free!" "OMG, I'm traumatized! The death of (name) is the worst thing I've ever been through!" (Sorry for your loss. smh) But because I don't always catch hints that someone is bothered and I don't know what to say, I'm branded as 'lacking empathy.' Totally unfair. At least I KNOW I struggle in that department. Most people are blissfully unaware. And no, I don't hold grudges against any of these people. (Okay, I do hold a grudge against the person who made the marriage crack. That one was unforgivable. They're divorced for a reason.) I have the EMPATHY to understand that they were well-meaning and their intentions were good. They wanted to give me something, anything, to lessen the pain, but they didn't know how. Frankly, it would be unfair of me to think anyone could soften the blow. There is nothing anyone could say in such a situation. The reality is that the grieving have to struggle with it alone and find their own way out. I knew this and vowed not to hold anything against anyone when they tried and stumbled. BECAUSE I HAVE EMPATHY.

[@anoukfleur2513]

Damn, all those comments sound pretty stupid and yes the marriage-one takes the cake by far. I wish you all the best on your journey of grief.

[@nitzan3782]

These comments are disgusting and other NT people would have been even more appalled than you were. If someone told that to people I know to have lost children, the largely-NT reaction around me would be "what the actual hell is WRONG with you?!" What I'm trying to say is, these people were completely in the wrong and paving their personal road to Hell with their 'good intentions', as the saying goes.

[@kamrandehghan6507]

You have real integrity. ❤

[@Kayd33]

I'm sorry for your loss. Thank you for sharing your story. This is so profoundly true. I can think of examples from my own interactions with NTs.

[@Pouquiloury]

I am sorry for your loss. Responding emphatic is always subjective, since you respond to what you think the other person is feeling. And if you've had a similar experience you assume you know how they are feeling. But if you haven't you must conjure up what you think they must be feeling. So everything goes through your filter. That is why people respond with what they think is most helpfull. The person who mentioned the parents who didn't get to bury their child thinks it would be devastating if they could not and don't realise that mentioning that fact is very hurtfull and not a bit comforting. Since losing your child is devastating as is. The person that mentioned the marriage is thinking they can help you avoid that what was most devastating to them, divorce. Their pain triggers them to warn you for the pitfalls they perceive. So, most people who trash the porcelain actually really think they are emphatically responding to your pain and wouldn't understand they actually didn't get the point at all. If a lesson is to be learned from your experience it would be: don't think you know what the other person is feeling or experiencing. It would probably be best to acknowledge that. I am so sorry for your loss. I can't imagine what you are going through. I've experienced loss, pain and grieve and that hurt awfull. I wish I could do or say anything that would lessen your burden.

[@r.k.6872]

One of my problems as an autistic is that if there's a problem and someone is feeling upset I tend to come up with a solution on how to stop the source of the problem (telling a co-worker to break up with her boyfriend cos he's cheating on her the whole time and is jobless and use her money to buy weed). But I've discovered through experiences that she (and most people) just want to be comforted and not really want to take any action against it. I had a hard time processing it cos I couldn't understand why she keeps on putting herself through the same situation over and over again.

[@jamesbarca7229]

To be fair, many people in toxic relationships don't themselves understand why they keep going back (I speak from personal experience). It's not autism that keeps you from understanding in those instances. I also had a hard time processing it until I experienced it myself. Now that I understand what a screwed up place they're in, I just pity them.

[@GemstoneActual]

Right on. Most people prefer lies and distractions. Call it Societal Stress Disorder or Collective Delusion. "cos" should be " 'cause", a contracted form of "because". ;) Especially with chicks, man, the cause of the problem is almost always an emotion. Your solution is too logical; apply your logic to emotion, to find that discovering and reinforcing her self-worth is the sort of help she needs, from you. If you're confident in your assessment, then be a Con-Man, and accomplish a mission. Or fail, and learn . . . whatever. Hope that helps, R.K.

[@bluecannibaleyes]

Same. I’ll admit that I don’t really have much empathy for stupid people.

[@grayowl167]

@R. K. great observations! The thing is, people will come to their own conclusions on their own time. There are also pieces of the story that you are likely unaware of, so the answer may seem obvious with the information you have, but may be more complex than it presents. I agree about leaving a cheating, mooching partner though! For some, that's an obvious line, for others, it's a line to be learned.

[@Miscelanou]

I have a fascination with understanding "illogical" behavior Illogical behavior is logical, it just takes a different pathway. I'm a good example as I often display "illogical behaviors" as I also have schizophrenia. Just zoom out and you'll realize patterns repeat and they usually rhyme. It's a spectrum.

[@elietheprof5678]

Many people in the "caring" profession actually have an extremely narrow definition of empathy, and it usually involves following their rules. Sometimes I think that the whole "autists lack empathy" narrative is just pure gaslighting.

[@gaetanklein-peakstatesther5867]

Hello, Well, there is certainly a misunderstanding between aspergers and non-aspergers (in general, everyone being different). I don't believe that is voluntarily oppressive, but rather a misunderstanding. That is part of the problem that sometimes you might say something inappropriate and the neurotypicals don't understand that you are joking, and instead perceive it as rudeness or disrespect. So, there are two sides to this story really.

[@michaelhaardt5988]

It is not gaslighting, but it certainly can be perceived as such. People do not perceive the world as it is, but build up their mental model of the world, and their tolerance defines which deviations are still valid. The majority mostly (by definition) ever experiences the majority. Old and well connected models are strong and nothing in that model indicates that the human experience may be way more wide than they are aware of or can even imagine, and even the unimaginable is still valid, so people act on what they believe to know. That's just how human thinking works - for both NT and ND.

[@runningraven]

I'm not sure it's deliberate gaslighting, though. Even as someone who's on the spectrum it's hard to understand and quantify the difference in expression of empathy in neurotypical AND other atypical people. My daughter, who's just a tiny bit higher up on the spectrum, has WAY different needs and expression than I have in sensory overload situations. I imagine people who don't deal with overload at all, professionals or not, will have a VERY hard time assessing our empathy in these situations without direct communication, which is often IMPOSSIBLE in the situation exactly due to sensory overload. 😅

[@Dario-uj6qo]

It happend to me with someone who was studying to be a phychologist, she would attack others and even me even when I'm clearly hurt in order to get her useless gains to then getting offended when I say that not all pshychologist are perfect. She would also brag about what she consider as dignity (in a very vaguely manner) must be achived at all cost and how if something or someone dosen't alling to that o considers that said way of achiveing something causes more problems than benefits then she would attack it too. It even got to the point where a "friend" wished a long and painfull death to those who didn't allyng to that only to her to ignore that and attack me for understanding those whose those opinions they didn't share, after that every time that I see someone in the caring profesion mess up I can't help to remember that and take a mental note of said instances, to my experience it's always those who brag about etics the firsts to hurt others, and I'm sick of that, they can hurt people to their heart content, but they act as the victim for every minor disagreement

[@cairosilver2932]

Do you have a definition of empathy?

[@marsc198]

I am an adult female with Asperger Syndrome. If I am upset or overwhelmed, I need someone to hug/hold me so that it can 'ground' me. That is what reassures me, that I am not alone to face whatever it is I am facing. I actually require more touch, without any added pressure for me to reciprocate.

[@savvivixen8490]

Relatable

[@liasadventure]

I think this has a lot to do with childhood too. My emotions weren’t seen or supported as a kid so this is what I need too, to be seen, heard, held

[@QueenHuntress]

I don’t like to be touched, especially when I’m upset, but if I’m headed for shutdown, a strong, firm hug can pull me back from it. I guess maybe I like touch when it serves a purpose.

[@pr00thmatic]

when I was in school i used to cry a lot and could not stop... the more people tried to calm me down by being gentle and hugging, and talking to me, the more I'd spiral down crying and not being even able to talk... i thought nobody else felt the same way and grew up very ashamed of this... one day i found my mother-in-law crying in her bedroom and I just closed the door and let her cry alone, because that's what I need... i think she got mad... and I felt very bad for her "of course she needed me to stay... how can I be so dumb? nobody else is like me! she's gonna think that i don't care about her"

[@BasedZoomer]

I agree, though I am likely NT I, personally, cannot stand being touched when I am upset. Really I hate being around anyone at all, but if a person had a hand in making me upset I absolutely cannot be around that person. I am also not naturally inclined to give comfort to others when they are upset, but rather, like you, to leave them be to sort out their feelings. However, I am a mimicker and pretty quickly picked up as a kid to do to other what they tried to do to me when I was upset. Even if I am not on the spectrum, it feels really nice to be able to relate to others. No one around me could ever understand that I felt that way. Except my dad, he's quite like me in regards to being emotional/comforting and that was always nice, though we still differ in many other ways.

[@MysteryGrey]

@pr00thmatic I cried a lot in school, as well. I've cried a lot in my lifetime.

[@JoyfulKatt]

Yea, I got called an emotionless robot by my mom a few times. I don't think I am but I gave up caring if I did or didn't years ago. My cat loves me, thats enough.

[@gaetanklein-peakstatesther5867]

Thanks for sharing, and sorry to read about that misunderstanding with your mom !

[@spaceowl5957]

Fuck that your mom said that, you deserve better

[@spaceowl5957]

You should tell her that that’s not true and that it hurt your feelings

[@BasedZoomer]

My husband calls me a robot and a brick wall and such all the time. And he always sounds especislly upset when he does (not exasperated, but not quite angry either? I can't always tell) Sometime ago I told him it was hurtful, but he still never changed it. Pretty sure I'm NT though, so I'm just here to share your struggle.

[@liasadventure]

Relatable

[@ix-Xafra]

We're very empathetic, it's just overwhelming...

[@KevinKurzsartdisplay]

I’m not

[@ix-Xafra]

@@KevinKurzsartdisplay maybe you're just a psychopath...

[@jimwilliams3816]

I think some of the comfort response issue is the instinct problem. I am cognitively aware of the roles I am supposed to play when someone is upset, but behaving in that way does not feel natural, so I freeze. And as you note, this generally stems from the fact that the things that I need or want when I am melting down are not necessarily the same as what a NT person wants when they are upset. Physical contact is never an easy thing for me, and talking in a meltdown is usually not possible. So it's easy for me to feel like attempts by others to reach out are demands to connect on NT terms when I am least able to do so. To comfort someone to even a limited degree, I have to fight what feels right to me with considerable intensity. Imagine a parent standing next to their child, who has skinned their knee and is crying loudly, telling themselves that they must resist the urge to comfort their child, and must stand there saying nothing instead. It feels kind of like that, only in reverse. Then add an elaborate script that I know I am supposed to follow, but do not have memorized, knowing if I stray from it, I will only make things worse -- and my entire history tells me that I will absolutely stray from it.

[@phoebebaker1575]

So well expressed!

[@reidleblanc3140]

yep. I know exactly what I should be doing, but it's like the difference between... for example... knowing what a professional athlete does to run that fast, vs. actually doing it myself. plus it does feel extremely unnatural. especially the voice tone and facial expression shifts.

[@pvp6077]

Omg exactly

[@bermast4240]

Non-autistic guy with multiple austistic family members and close friends here. I justed wanted to say that you're not alone at all in this, cause literally all of my autistic loved ones struggle with physical intimacy and comforting others too (or getting their emotions across in general). Now, one thing that you should know about me is that I tend to be very physical when I comfort people or require comfort. I'm very much a hugger. Well, it turns out that my autistic friends all hate physical contact, but didn't want to say so because they didn't want to offend me. We had plenty of similar miscommunications that made these friendships much more distant and awkward than any of us wanted. Eventually I had a long conversation about autism struggles with one of them, which was a bit of an eye-opener. It helped me to essentially "learn to speak their language" a little and understand their communication style a bit better. It really made a world of difference, and we're much more comfortable around each other now, which is pretty neat. I dunno, maybe it will help you too in your friendships?

[@jimwilliams3816]

@@bermast4240 Thank you for the thoughts. Most of the friends I've had over the years were not huggers...some of them may be on the spectrum...and I'd trained most others to keep it to a minimum, as I have my wife. Giving comfort is my biggest issue; with work its a problem of my not being "good at affirmation," which is pretty common with Aspies I think. I'll talk about the pros and cons of my work or anyone else's, but "good job" is not something I say or care about hearing. The big problem tends to be when my wife is upset. She knows what I'm like, but living without the physical and verbal affirmation wears on her, it's hard for her not to feel like I don't care. I wish I didn't freeze up at the prospect of reaching out, but I do. My relationship with my parents (one or both of whom may have been on the spectrum) was that way too, but we seemed to be on the same page at least. None of us really expected it of the others, so it felt okay.

[@carolperdue7534]

I really relate to that wall of glass feeling, especially in group settings. Sometimes trying to understand all the nuances involved in communication while in a group setting causes me to shut down and not say anything. Then I feel even more isolated. I'm glad KZbin recommended your video.

[@gaetanklein-peakstatesther5867]

Thank you ! I can definitely relate. And I'm happy I dont experience this anymore.

[@Elisabeth19031978]

I can relate on that as well! I almost felt very offended when people accused me of not being empathic.

[@ezb6798]

I think the example of what “neurotypical” people want when they are crying is overly simplistic. I am not on the autism spectrum, so in that sense I am what you are calling “neurotypical.” However, I am introverted and have sensory processing sensitivity, two traits that tend not to be respected in US society. When I am sad, I need to be by myself. I don’t want a big fuss made over me, nor to be hugged etc. I will ask for company and touch when and if I feel ready for them. I think the big lesson is that we should not assume things about other people based on our own nervous systems, brains and cultures. Rather, we need to learn as much as we can about the variety of human beings and work to improve communication about our needs and the needs of others in a nonjudgmental way. We have words, so we should use them. “I want to help. Is there something I could do?” is a great way to start. Or “I appreciate your wanting to help me. It would be great if you could ____ .”

[@gaetanklein-peakstatesther5867]

I absolutely agree ! Thanks for your input.

[@elsagrace3893]

Yes, exactly. Empathy is a learned skill. It’s not mind reading. All these people who were never taught the skill just love to adopt the Asperger’s and autism label to relieve themselves (in their minds) of the responsibility and great effort of learning appropriate social skills. It’s disgusting. Alternatively they are practicing a form of know-it-all-ness by believing that they have learned all there is to learn and this is just how they are. Complete rubbish and lacking in any humility.

[@AdryenneP]

I would also agree, and add that many neurotypical people feel overwhelmed when presented with someone crying or in distress of some kind, and panic because they don’t know what to do to fix it or make it better, which I believe stems from societal views and attitudes towards negative emotions. We panic when we see them and feel like we have to fix it or make it go away immediately, which puts pressure on people, and so they sit there panicking, thinking to themselves “oh god this person is crying. What am I supposed to do to make it go away???” And can get frozen.

[@jhmrem]

A big issue is that non-neurotypicals can't read subtle signals indicating what neurotypicals want (and probably vice-versa, I don't know).

[@annabizaro-doo-dah]

I agree. We have diversity training from a very young age around racial/national differences to counter prejudice, sex education, religious differences and understanding sexual orientation helping to counter prejudice and ignorance is all these areas. But a more fundamental difference is our communication styles and this applies to every human regardless of sex, class, race or religion. Sometimes though our responses are so immediate and spontaneous, grounded in millennia of evolutionary development that we can't help but make mistakes unless we have early education. For example I was looking after a 24 yr old Saudi wife & mum with cancer whose husband had not been told she was dying. As her BP dropped lower I knew she was going and I was frantically bleeping the consultant to get here fast. The team arrived half an hour later seconds after she died. Her husband didn't speak English but screamed out in grief "so young so young'and pulled out his hair, hitting himself. With a mother's instincts I grabbed him and held him tight. Obviously he freaked out😔. I didn't think I just acted. The embassy representative arrived to organise things and translate (their govt paid our hospital trust for treatment) & I spoke to them and apologised to him profusely. He was understanding, as were they, yet if I'd had proper training perhaps I would have had other tools at my disposal. I was put in a dreadful situation as a young nurse by doctors too cowardly or greedy to say there was no more hope and she should be discharged home for palliative care, since we knew weeks in advance this was the case. Regardless of that, the situation was compounded by very different communication styles and yet we were both (presumably) neurotypical.

[@KxNOxUTA]

As a person with ADHD I find all sides incredibly relatable and frequently find myself squashed in-between. In some days it's like having the best of both worlds and other times it's like having the worst of both. It's like being "different" and "not different enough" :'D But maybe there are also other types of neurodivergent people feeling that way. Actually, even amongst neurotypical people there are those with invisible physical struggles that would be able to relate. We certainly agree that we overall need the worlld to slow down and for people to have more time and free capacity, to accomodate the diversity of people. All that mad rush for efficiency is costing us way too much! Going as far as costing way too many lives!

[@gaetanklein-peakstatesther5867]

I totally agree !

[@Vantorea]

This is exactly what I've been feeling! Different but not different enough. I can relate because so many of those struggles I face myself. But the other person always has it way harder. I've also been wondering how many similarities ADHD and autism spectrum actually have. Every person I truly connect with has turned out be on the spectrum or have ADHD. And with neurotypical people I feel like I have to tighten my human suit and hope I pass. At least my experience has been that even though I have ADHD, I'm behind the same glass wall, with the people on the spectrum, watching the weird stuff neurotypical people do :D

[@nitzan3782]

As another person with ADHD, I agree, but our difficulties come from a different source. We too have lower cognitive empathy, but not because of a low theory of mind - ours is usually around normal; We don't get to use it because we're either not stopping to think about what we say before we say it(especially with more impulsive presentations), or we didn't catch the minute details of implicit social cues that give the cultural context required to translate the theory of mind to the more practical concept of cognitive empathy(especially with more attentive presentations). To give a compare-and-contrast example, I dated a man with PDDNOS(his function was extremely similar to Asperger's, though he didn't hyperfixate), when I'd screw up a social situation because I spoke before thinking, and never had a chance to try and read the room, he'd screw it up no matter how hard he thought before he opened his mouth because he couldn't read the room to save his life.

[@Pouquiloury]

​@TheWeeaboo : I know I have ADHD & ASD (Asperger). The former has been formally diagnosed, the latter only by me. My GP doesn't acknowledge either (due to my superior masking). The stereotypes of neuro-divergent people do a lot of damage. I am glad so much more professional people acknowledge their neurodivergence, it helps to portrait a more realistic picture of people on the spectrum (ADHD, ASD).

[@bermast4240]

God I can relate to this so hard. I have a lot of NT friends and multiple autistic friends, and on one hand it's cool that I can get along with all these people who are so very different from each other. And on the other hand, some days I just feel like I'm the biggest dweeb ever and I don't really fit in anywhere. I only learned that I have ADHD very recently, but I'm glad that I did, because it explains so, so much.

[@DaniLong]

YES!!! This is so true. And it can cause a lot of problems - my husband's feelings are often hurt by his perception that I'm cold or uncaring or have no empathy for him. It's rough because it's not true that I don't care. I just express it as you explained. If anything, I am over empathetic and feel to much of other people because I'm always 'radar on' and intuit from body language, voice, etc. in addition to just a person's words.

[@gaetanklein-peakstatesther5867]

Right, I see that a lot. It is just that the wall of glass effect lead other people to misread us too.

[@cairosilver2932]

I think people can misread their own response to other people as being what the other person is feeling. Like with what other people seem to be feeling - how much does it go against what things you want? If you read other people's actual emotions then often enough those emotions would be for things you're not interested in. If your reading of their emotions tends to consistently align with what you want - you're probably just reading your own feelings. It'd be like standing next to a pair of speakers that are blaring out the music you like to play and then you see someone else and their speakers across the room and you say 'I know the music you like to play, I can hear it!'. In such a situation you're just hearing your own music. For example, are you talking about your husbands' hurt feelings or is the music you are hearing your own and you are talking about your own hurt feelings?

[@phoebetaptiklis5122]

Thanks for this. I have so many asperger's/autistic attributes, (face blindness/hypersensitivities/introversion/the glass wall you mention), but because I have a lot of empathy, no one will believe I am that way.... I was sure for a long time that it is a problem with diagnosis. because social deficit is the primary cause of diagnosis, this is over-emphasised in the understanding of the condition.

[@gaetanklein-peakstatesther5867]

Yes, everyone experiences it slightly differently, so general characteristics might be more or less accurate. It is important to start from what you are feeling specifically.

[@WhatIsSanity]

Most of the difficulty autists face socially and in communication doesn't stem from our own difficulties with empathy, it stems from a lack of empathy from others. That's really the biggest hurdle not just for autistic people but everyone and anyone that doesn't easily conform to their societies dominant culture; that in most places in the world even small differences in how people communicate, emotionally & mentally process even how they feel- aren't tolerated. Period. It goes way beyond simple mismatching of neurotypes. Over arching dominant cultures of the world have been telling us for centuries a false narrative of how people are and should be and it turns out it's actually the majority not the minority of people that don't fit this narrative. This is always in the back of peoples minds, what we are taught about the world shapes us. The things we believe even if we're not mindful of them, the lessons we are taught everyday that shape how interact with ourselves and the world around are called schemas. It's peoples negative schemas that form a mindset that is not open to differences in people, and that is a problem for all of us because we are a varied weird bunch us humans. That's the first barrier to entry right there and easily the worst faced by us. When people believe deep down that as long as you're different there is no understanding or getting along, and you can't do anything to change those differences, that fucking sucks man. There's your problem, everything else can be worked on when you get past this.

[@lygiabird6988]

This is very true! My husband works with children with asd and is always the one that can get through to them and help them. He would mention that they seemed totally ‘normal’ (neurotypical) to him. I always got on really well with people with adhd when others thought they were annoying. Turns out husband has asd and I have adhd (recently discovered). Also my husband is extremely compassionate but you wouldn’t be able to tell if you didn’t know him.

[@gaetanklein-peakstatesther5867]

Nice story, thank you for sharing !

[@_Trakman]

It's mirrored glass on both sides. You can't look out. They can't look in.

[@BitwiseMobile]

I am on the spectrum, but I have very deep empathy. More than people not on the spectrum sometimes I think. The problem is that dealing with social issues requires you to interact socially. That's the hardest thing I can do. It takes so much energy for me to interact socially, that I don't have much left to help. My close relatives, however, like my wife and son, do absolutely enjoy my empathy. It doesn't require as much anxiety to deal with people I live with sociably than it does with others, for some reason. It's not anxiety free - only if I'm at my desk working on whatever gadget I happen to be working on at the time with my head deep in technical manuals and code am I completely anxiety free. That's my world, and when I'm there it's zero anxiety. When I go outside that shell is when the anxiety starts. Anxiety and critical thinking are never good bedfellows.

[@found_it]

Wall of Glass, huh? That's something I feel. Except for me it's like I'm not allowed to talk to people unless I have a reason too such as someone talking to me first. It's like I can only talk freely to those whom I know really well.

[@gaetanklein-peakstatesther5867]

Yes, I that is definitely one of the possible effect of the wall of glass.

[@ShintogaDeathAngel]

I can relate to that. I was diagnosed with autism at 17, but I think it was actually PTSD from first being separated from birth parents, then brought up by alcoholic bipolar father and his enabler wife. Also pretty sure now that I have symptoms of dyspraxia.

[@rubysilver3299]

I remember 50 years ago, when I was a pre-teen, going shopping with my mother and thinking that I was seeing all the people around me, even my mother, as if they were on the other side of a pane of glass. In the ensuing years, that feeling of being separated from the world by a sheet of glass came back quite frequently. I never mentioned it to anyone, because I thought it was just me being weird again, and this is the first time I’ve heard it described by another person. It had never occurred to me that I might have autism until my son was diagnosed in elementary school and I started reading about the subject. I hope that understanding and acceptance of neurodiversity will continue to grow and that children and adults on the spectrum will no longer feel as strange and lonely as I did.

[@danisarmi30]

Oftentimes it feels like NT empathy is more performative than anything. I remember when my uncle (mom's brother) died after a long battle with cancer. I sat with my mother when she got the news, and kept her company in silence while petting her shoulder. I knew she didn't want to be alone, but no words would help her feel better. I'm glad we were quarantined because of covid at the time, because otherwise I'm sure she wouln't have been allowed to stay home and just grieve. I spent the whole time we were home trying to make things easier for her. Once she had to go back to the office, everyone around her was like "sorry for your loss, do you have the reports?". Like getting the empathy act out of the way befor going back to business. And I know it hit her hard, even if she didn't say anything. Beyond the right words and gestures, the supposed empathy went nowhere. Not an action after the socially expected words and pats of the back. Everyone expected her to be appreciative of it and just bounce back. And she acted the part, even though I know it still huts her deeply two years later. And yet I know that had someone been there they'd have called me cold and unfeeling because I was composed and silent instead of fussy and upset.

[@annabizaro-doo-dah]

I think this talk should be given in all schools, colleges and workplaces. We are so keen on diversity training in every other area of humanity, yet we don't seem to prepare for a more fundamentally important difference in humans - that of communication styles/needs.

[@gaetanklein-peakstatesther5867]

Absolutely, I wish this could be more spread out.

[@ninaromm5491]

@ Anna Bizaro . Couldn't agree more !

[@nitzan3782]

It's a misconception that originates from grouping both types of empathy together. Autistics have AFFECTIVE empathy, meaning they feel for other people, but little to no COGNITIVE empathy, meaning understanding WHY people feel the way they do and how to (NOT) GET them to feel a certain way. The core reason behind low cognitive empathy for autistics is low theory of mind, while the capacity for emotion isn't affected(the way said emotions are expressed and regulated in light of higher sensory sensitivity are another issue entirely). Sociopaths and especially psychopaths are usually the opposite - they have superb cognitive empathy but little to no affective empathy. They know exactly how to manipulate those around them but aren't moved by their distress. The core reason is a lower affinity for emotions in general, while their theory of mind isn't affected and is in fact required for their behavioral patterns, giving it an exercise that neurotypicals and especially autistics almost never get. Autistics are severely damaged by grouping these two concepts together.

[@reneedwards1082]

I care tooooo much and read people deeply, very sensitive with no filter. Hectic life!!

[@kattymatty413]

Oh my goodness. Thank you for this. There are countless moments in my life where I want to be there for someone like they are for me, but I don’t know how… and feel like I’m missing the script everyone else got. I give people space and check on them when things settle; I’ve learned that preference isn’t universal. The wall of glass? My entire grade/high school experience, could not put a finger on it. It’s always a process crossing that threshold with another person, and most times I never do. I have a wealth of connection within my small circle, and I’m happy with it. Thanks, I didn’t have words for any of this until now.

[@autodogdact3313]

I definitely feel the wall of glass, but luckily I have found a few neurotypical friends who mostly understand me and are willing to listen to my experience of the world as I listen to theirs. They have taught me so much, and I them. We see each other when we are free and know that if we need help we can always call on each other. We don't invade the other's space, but come together as agreed. My one friend just had a flat tire so I told our other friend who was in the area and he quickly helped her by changing the tire. I picked her up from the service shop and took her back when her car was ready. I know if I need them they will be there for me.

[@jamesbarca7229]

I know from numerous conversations that many (if not most) people don't understand what empathy even means. It's not about being a good person or having compassion or sympathy, it simply means being able to put yourself in someone else's position and see things from their perspective. Someone can be very empathetic and still be a rotten person or can even use their empathetic abilities to manipulate people and do them harm. That being said, if someone lacks empathy it doesn't mean they're a bad person, just that they're unable to see things through other people's perspective. If someone is unable to see things from the perspective of the majority of the population (who aren't their neurotype), then technically they do lack empathy, at least when it comes to the majority of the population. And the same goes both ways. I lack empathy (but not compassion or sympathy) for autistic people because I can't put myself in their shoes, I don't understand the way they think. I think you're taking it as an insult when, at least coming from people who actually understand the concept of empathy, it's simply meant as a factual observation. And the people who do mean it as an insult are ignorant or just plain jerks. Either way, they aren't worth getting upset over. P.S. Before posting this I looked up "double empathy" because I was unfamiliar with the term. I was surprised to see that in none of the explanations did they even define empathy, they just launch right into a bunch of psychological jargon concerning double empathy. I find that very strange. It seems to me they should define the subject at hand before wading off into the weeds over it.

[@bluecannibaleyes]

If that’s what empathy means, then no one has it. No one is mind-reader. No one can ACTUALLY understand what it would be like to have a different brain. When people say ‘put yourself in others shoes’, I used to think they just meant imagine being in the same situation. Which I can do just fine. But if they mean dumb myself down and truly understand what it’s like to have the same lack of logic and poor decision-making capabilities as the person going through the situation, then, yeah, I admit that I can’t do that. But no one else can either. From my experience, ‘empathy’ is just a weaponized word nowadays, so I avoid using it altogether. The only people I ever hear use the word ‘empathy’ are those trying to shame others for not having the exact reaction to a situation that they want. Usually it’s just people who want to justify a really poor decision and don’t want it to be criticized.

[@jamesbarca7229]

@@bluecannibaleyes I'm baffled that you somehow got all of that out of "it simply means being able to put yourself in someone else's position and see things from their perspective", but it supports my observation that most people don't understand what empathy even means.

[@bluecannibaleyes]

@@jamesbarca7229 Like I said, if ‘from their perspective’ means not only their situation, but to imagine thinking like them, then no one can really do that. It’s a pie in the sky if that’s literally wha it means.

[@jamesbarca7229]

@@bluecannibaleyes I understood what you wrote but the point I was trying to get across was that's not what it means, at least not to my understanding. It doesn't mean you have to have the same thought process as the other person. If that were the case, as you pointed out, empathy wouldn't be possible. That means either empathy is an impossible concept, or you misunderstand what it means. Take your pick, makes no difference to me. (Hmm...apathy, another that rhymes with sympathy but couldn't be farther removed)

[@bluecannibaleyes]

@@jamesbarca7229 I mean I always thought that it meant imagining yourself in their situation. The way some people try to shame others for doing that but seeing the situation differently really makes me wonder if some people really meant ‘put yourself in my brain’ the entire time, though. The people who tend to use the word as a weapon seem to think this way, at least. The way people use the word nowadays is definitely corrupted from its original meaning.

[@annevv5]

This makes sense very much. I recently discovered that I am also neurodivergent (age 57). Never learned that before because i can easily communicate with most people, also neurotypical. My neurodivergent side never stood out clearly because of that. But knowing now, has made me understand myself a lot better.

[@zehravigna4873]

How did you know that you were neurodivergent ?

[@cloudninetherapeutics7787]

Thank you for this very clear and well presented explanation, Gaetan. You've introduced the "Wall of Glass" effect to me, which is a remarkable way to describe how someone with Asberger's syndrome experiences social nuances. My sons were born in the mid 80's and both have Asberger's syndrome. My older son has stage 4 heart failure and have witnessed firsthand how very cavalier cardiologists, medical professionals and the health system has treated him. He has a very high IQ and yet feels helpless regarding his health. With this in mind on a much larger scale, would you consider putting together a presentation regarding seriously ill individuals with Asberger's syndrome, specific to the "Wall of Glass" effect. It is very well known that in most cases, medical professionals have very limited education and training regarding communicating with and treating unique neurotypes. And from what I've seen firsthand for many years, a very concerning lack of compassion and empathy themselves. It has been very devastating and damaging to my son. I fear this may be quite widespread. Thank you for your time, Gaetan. Be blessed.🙏

[@gaetanklein-peakstatesther5867]

Wow thank you for sharing this. Yes, it is a real problem how doctors can be so detached that they show up as having no compassion. Of course it is worse for Asperger's, though I can assure you many many "NT" feel the same. I need to think about this video you as me of, my specialty is not really teaching communication between neurotypes, but rather to eliminate the core issue that creates such difficulties. Thank you

[@cloudninetherapeutics7787]

@@gaetanklein-peakstatesther5867 Thank you for your thoughtful reply, Gaetan. Hopefully we as a global society will become more aware and develop a deeper understanding.

[@Hislittlelamb]

It’s actually quite common in the US for medical professionals, doctors, nurses, technicians to develop a certain callousness about them. It’s called “bedside manner” and a lot more prevalent with specialties like Cardiology. My older sister was the manager of the Pulmonary Medicine Dept. at a large hospital. There were a couple of doctors she would complain about having to work with for being too pushy, having unrealistic expectations of her Respiratory Therapists, one of whom was the top Cardiologist/Surgeon. Everyone in the hospital was afraid of him and were extra, extra careful when treating one of his patients because he would scream and curse at technicians. When my mom had a heart attack though that Cardiologist was the one she chose to care for our mom because he was a Bulldog when it came to caring for his patients and our mom would get the absolute best care. I’m telling this because I imagine those technicians working on that doctor’s patients probably weren’t the friendliest to that patient. Not that they would be mean, they were just overly focused on doing their job to the doctor’s expectations and I think that’s a very good thing. I would explain to your son that the doctors, nurses, & technicians aren’’t there to be nice or your friend. They are professionals with a critical, life or death, job to do.

[@cloudninetherapeutics7787]

@@Hislittlelamb I wish it were that easy. I've done exactly that actually, and have been fully supporting him and advocating for him not only since his diagnosis in 2019, but his entire life. I think the important factor here that strongly differs from a simple "bedside manner" and my experience is that I witnessed firsthand abuse, neglect, gaslighting and a refusal on their part to change his medication, among other things. They told him that if he wanted a heart, he had to stay on the medications that they prescribed for him. These cardiologists had also just lost two male heart transplant patients sadly enough. He kept gaining weight and they mocked him at every appointment. I moved heaven and earth to get him to Mayo clinic. He could barely walk, he was full of water at the weight of 238 pounds and the pain was excruciating, as you can imagine. Immediately upon admission, they changed his medication. He began dropping weight and in 4 days he was able to eat solid foods and sleep a few hours. In 2 weeks, he had gone down from 238 to 170, which is very close to his normal weight of 167. There's more, but I hope you see now how much worse it has been for us. My son is very brave and strong is now finishing his bachelor's with a 15% ejection fraction and in pain constantly. He's extraordinary in every way.

[@ninaromm5491]

@@gaetanklein-peakstatesther5867 Even so, I would still support the request from "Cloud Nine" that you do a video specifically on this issue of callous abuse by the medical profession. I am experiencing it right now, and have for a lifetime. At the very least, a video dedicated to this problem could elicit more responses and information regarding how those on the spectrum have been mistreated, and assist in enriching the growing body of research. To anyone out there who wants to chat further about this, I would be eager and willing

[@RD-us2kb]

I describe spectrum emotions as a 'heart dialect' it is without sound, animals can often understand it but neuro-typicals are so 'loud' in their communication they don't hear the silent messages.

[@Dave-nm3xc]

Very interesting! I am now in my 40's thinking I might be Autistic. I can totally relate to not knowing how to react when someone is crying. Thanks for helping me to understand the difference between normal and Autistic people.

[@gaetanklein-peakstatesther5867]

You are welcome !

[@mistiroberts1576]

Omgosh me too! I panic- I'm like "dont cry! dont cry!" Lol

[@nataliebutler]

@@mistiroberts1576 most people say 'don't cry', what they really mean though is 'I don't want you to be upset', but it's healthy to cry and to let out emotions, and to a sensitive person 'don't cry' might make them feel bad for crying, like they shouldn't cry. I like to say 'it's okay' if someone cries. (Or maybe 'what's wrong' if that's not clear). It's okay is comforting and allows them to cry if that's what they need.

[@mistiroberts1576]

@@nataliebutler well when I say dont cry its because of the reasons he's talking about in this video lol

[@wildlifegardenssydney7492]

@@nataliebutler 🎯🎯🎯

[@kingmasterlord]

lack empathy? it's quite the opposite we get so overstimulated from empathy that we become numb as a defense.

[@sharifalhumaid8537]

Beautifully presented. Thank you.

[@reidleblanc3140]

it's of course important to understand that not all of us are like this. We're not a monolith. I am genuinely very very low empathy.

[@KevinKurzsartdisplay]

I’m none at all. No empathy

[@effie3798]

My newly diagnosed son wants comfort by me hugging him and putting his nose against my nose.

[@timothybaker4091]

Thankyou for this description. Where I am it is very difficult to obtain any competent professional feedback at my age. This will increase my ability to communicate.

[@michalchik]

I think part of the problem here is language confusion. Empathy and sympathy are two different things. I know that Autistic people have normal or even heightened sympathy. That is concern and care for other people. Empathy is not how much you care for other people; it's how much you share their feelings as they have them. If you have problems with attention, interpreting faces, body language, your own strong inner emotional passions and instability, it puts you out of synchronization with other people. You are not calm when they are calm, and joyous at the same things at the same time. If you are feeling overwhelmed or focused on teh wrong things, it may be very hard for you to pick up when people are sad, or annoyed or happy with you or when they need you and want to be with you. When they want you to kiss them or when they want you to back off. When they are insulting and teasing you, and when they are just engaging in some friendly horseplay. Autistic people are not psychopaths, not caring about other people. When they pick up on other people's emotions, they are generally very kind and thoughtful. They do have trouble sharing the emotions of other people in a way that allows them to be synchronized socially with them.

[@Dziaji]

Sympathy is when you feel for someone because you have experienced the same thing. Empathy is when you feel for someone even though they are in a different circumstance than you have been. An AA meeting has a lot of sympathy because of very similar experiences being shared, but if you have no kids, and you are feeling for someone that lost a child, that is empathy.

[@johnridout6540]

@@Dziaji Definitions of "empathy" vary. Specifically psychologists include recognizing the thoughts and feelings of other people in their definition of empathy. I'm quite poor at recognizing most people's emotional state. By this definition I lack empathy, but that does not mean I don't care.

[@louisehogg8472]

Not only is there the distinction between sympathy and empathy, there are two aspects or types of empathy. Emotional empathy and cognitive empathy. Once autistic people realise what event or emotion is happening, they sometimes have so MUCH emotional empathy they are overwhelmed and can end up in need of being comforted as though THEY were the person experiencing whatever has happened! (Which then comes over as attention seeking, being in the way, adding to the burden on others etc.) Emotional empathy is a sort of mirroring thing. Any 'people' job involves learning to control, delay or switch off emotional empathy. As it's not helpful if medical or care staff start crying, grieving, feel numb, confused or whatever every time a patient dies. Whereas cognitive empathy is something people learn and choose to switch ON in a way. People learn it with experience, with roleplaying games as children, with reading fiction or stories, with learning logic and patterns. It's sympathy and that provides the motivation for people to learn cognitive empathy. And it's emotional empathy that prompts people to switch on cognitive empathy in a given situation. You would think that with autistic people, being good at patterns, learning this would come naturally to them. But often the gap is in not using the OTHER person's starting point, outlook and personality when creating a picture of what's happening and what's therefore appropriate. Some people say that's a gap in 'theory of mind' or not producing a general theory, as against collecting a list of examples. Apparently the same difficulty in picking out the generalised pattern can make it hard to recognise facial expressions. I don't know to what extent an autistic person who wants to, can avoid becoming overwhelmed with emotional empathy, and learn cognitive empathy by studying a lot of individual people and actively thinking about what those people have in common with each other, rather than assuming NT people are the same as themselves. (Many NT people are at least as bad at reacting appropriately to autistic people, largely because autistic people are a minority. A comparison I'd make is that as a left-hander, I can ask for reasonable adjustments. But it would be unreasonable for me to expect the right-handed majority to automatically cater for me or even know how to. It's my job to ask. And I can save a lot of time by identifying potential snags, being prepared, and articulating my needs and easy solutions.) Perhaps they can? In the same way a person can learn how to handle distressed animals. Eg a beginner learns that horses put their ears back when frightened or angry. And learns some common causes and things that help soothe horses. But someone who knows a horse well, will know which of those causes is a problem for THAT horse, and what would help. The autistic people I know DON'T actually appreciate being treated the way they treat others, even when they say they do. Instead, like anybody else, they appreciate it when people apply the general rules of what is helpful, but with a few tweaks to the individual's worldview or abilities. For any of us, if it's an emotive situation, it's best to identify (and name) the emotion we're trying to address, and think what might help with that. Including the HELPER doing practical things, not suggesting the sufferer does. Fixing the situation comes later. Especially for the person experiencing the emotion. And yes, 'use your words', as they say.

[@michalchik]

@@louisehogg8472 that's an interesting set of ideas. I'm going to think about that and see if I agree

[@peter9477]

​@@louisehogg8472I feel like there is a lot of insight and wisdom in all that. If I may ask, did you achieve this mindset through professional development or is it from your own nature? Just curious... I believe few develop the same level of nuance and depth in these things.

[@Theodosia1]

The glass wall, that’s exactly how I described my experience in my journals and poetry back in junior high and high school way before I knew what Asperger’s or high functioning Autism even was. I’ve never been diagnosed, but I knew as soon as I found descriptions through research that that’s what I had. Through my difficulties of understanding other people’s thoughts while also having such a deep desire to understand and connect with others despite the painful experiences, I believe I have actually gained a lot more perspective and it’s easier to empathize with and read insights into the thoughts of a lot of different types of people.

[@StrawVince]

My current understanding is more that empathy should not be confused with sympathy and compassion. And my interpretation of the "double empathy" problem is then that empathy across neurotypes might simply not be possible ; only sympathy and compassion, which leads to huge misunderstandings and confusions. Empathy literally means putting one's self in the other's shoes and thus with their emotions, etc. While sympathy means placing yourself in one another's situation/context, but while still being yourself, and thus with your own emotions, etc. Compassion is then the response that you provide, and I guess it's quite clear that should it be fueled by empathy or sympathy, the end result will vastly vary. And while I don't know if I'm autistic or not, my current understanding of these distinctions makes me think I might be. Because I relate so much with stories from autistic people, and while I feel sympathy for stories of neurotypicals, their expectations just so often don't make any sense to me. And this is what makes it really hard to navigate in society without constant anxiety that I'll do something wrong (or wrongly not do something).

[@ARsuffix]

I wholeheartedly agree! As someone seen by others as on the ASD continuum, it's troubling because personally, truly I know that I feel very deeply about other people in my life. It just doesn't always come across to them for reasons that are hard to understand 💔

[@karenabrams8986]

Thankyou. I needed to hear this.

[@Thelooneylink]

My youngest is the most sensitive caring person I have ever known.

[@dankmemelord629]

Not knowing what to do when someone is crying is not just a problem for autistic people lol

[@gaetanklein-peakstatesther5867]

Sure. The difference is people with asperger might not understand or feel a connection to that person's emotional state. That's one of the instances where they might be felt as having no empathy.

[@Person-ef4xj]

Being less stereotypical in terms of being autistic I feel creates multiple barriers. For instance if I don't tell people I'm autistic then I feel they might misunderstand me, but then if they do they might also make assumptions about how autism might affect me that I can't relate to. Also autism seems to have a reverse effect on my eye contact from a lot of other people with autism as I see most people who talk about how autism affects them say they can't avoid eye contact but for me it's impossible for me not to make eye contact so even neurotypicals can sometimes be uncomfortable with my eye contact. I feel this also puts up somewhat of a barrier between myself as an autistic person who makes intense eye contact, and autistic people who avoid eye contact, as it makes it harder for me to feel their emotions from eye contact.

[@butterflyblueshorts]

Very insightful. Thank you

[@DannyD-lr5yg]

I was once interested in someone I knew, who was autistic. I was going to do a tarot reading about the situation. I’d been conceptualizing him as the mother of swords: ruthless with words, cunning, swift, and occasionally harsh, but with intentions of efficiency and organized authority. Lo and behold, the reading came up with the mother of cups: compassionate, highly emotional but with a high degree of emotional mastery, nurturing, and preternaturally intuitive. I was so taken aback by this. It was a “lightning strike” epiphany moment - had I been reading him all wrong? Was he actually a deeply sensitive, highly emotional person, whose communication style simply presented with a dry sardonicism and a (possibly unintentionally) scathing wit? After I had that realization, I did begin to see many indicators that he was a deeply empathetic, emotional person. It definitely enriched my experience of him.

[@la381]

🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️ You put faith in tarot cards rather than someone's actual actions??? WHY would you do that???? That sounds like something someone with autism would do because they don't accept actions as fact, but fantasy as fact.

[@CSDragon]

Empathy is not related to compassion or sympathy. It only means your ability to sense how others feel. I am Aspie myself, I care deeply for those around me. But I have no empathy. I cannot understand how things make other people feel. Only how it would make me feel if I were in their position, which is Sympathy. I can only relate to someone if they feel the same emotions I would in that situation, while an empath is able to accept others emotions for what they are. I disagree that autistic people can understand other autistic people's emotions better. Because I know I am not thinking about the other person at all. I am only thinking about myself and how I would act in their shoes. I have no concept of them as a separate entity that acts differently to me.

[@UltramarinePrimaris]

"I disagree that autistic people can understand other autistic people's emotions better" - And yet research shows autistic people do indeed understand each others emotions more according to the scientist who coined the "double empathy problem".

[@lucifchristo]

40yo male diagnosed with pdd-nos and if anything im hyper empathic and for this reason have learned to shut it off entirely as a survival mechanism.

[@SB-xr7qb]

Great video, thank you! Wonderful explanation, especially if someone is new to these ideas - you lay a very good foundation for people to build more understanding of each other :)

[@gaetanklein-peakstatesther5867]

Thanks ! I believe the world needs more love & understanding !

[@elsagrace3893]

Please explain the method by which you will go about gaining understanding of another? What’s the process for you to do that? Do you have even a small clue?

[@Nakia11798]

Empathy is so complicated for me because I definitely experience it. I fall a little below average on the empathy scale, BUT I feel like I experience too much empathy. I cry over TV shows and bc other people are upset, I hurt for others and feel anger for them. But I feel very little positive empathy. I feel glad for people, but it's small, and I don't show it at all. I feel very little in positive emotions in general though. So I kinda bounce between people thinking "you care way too much" and "you don't care about me". It's annoying and frustrating. I can't even fake excitement or anger if I don't actually feel it, and I can't turn off my emotions and pretend I'm not sad if I am. My emotions are on my sleeve, but sometimes hidden deep. I'm like two different people when it comes to emotions and empathy.

[@harveyjones691]

One of the main problems is that the people labelled as "autistic" are in the minority, 1 in 50 or fewer. The common herd does not tolerate difference - you only have to look at how different races have been treated, also how men have treated women etc, and it's out and out bullying. So anyone whose way of being is different (more sensitive, more intelligent, more rational) also suffer a hard time, especially as teens. Teenagers are the worst for bullying. One woman in comments talked about being bullied by other females. And no it isn't trauma, it's how these females are. They are full of themselves, and with so little reason to be. FFS, there is even bullying of some women by others in nursing homes, meaning some females stay as pouting, selfish 15 yo's their whole life. No self-awareness or self-growth in 70 years. I don't see why people who are smarter, more honest, more persistent, more passionate, and more aware should try and fit in with the majority. We all know the jocks whose only interests are going to parties, getting drunk and getting laid. Or the narcissistic mean girls whose whole horizon extends to shopping, preening, doing their nails and yes, getting drunk and getting laid. Why should anyone try and fit in with them? We just shortchange ourselves. I think we need to reframe the problem. Double empathy is one way to do this. We can make an effort to understand these others, while at the same time recognising the value of being better. As Temple Grandin said, without us, ordinary people would still be sitting outside the cave around the camp fire, socialising.

[@ellehan3003]

I shut down when someone I love is very upset or crying. It's not that I don't care, I just feel pain for them and also pain for myself since I don't know what to do, so I get very overwhelmed. I don't know if they want to talk, hear advice, be listened to, want a comforting cup of tea or a hug. I once was told I am cold. Since then, this person understands and realises I just don't know what to do and feel very very overwhelmed. I cook for people or give them things they need. I try to improve their lives in practical ways.

[@DJPoundPuppy]

Lol, I've never been diagnosed because I'm a well dressed, well spoken black woman who got laughed at by my therapist for suggesting it, but I freeze when people cry. When someone is crying I feel a sense of stress. I have to fight myself to comfort them because I feel so odd comforting a crying person. I have to be fake in order to do it. Even my own family members, unfortunately. Unexpected physical contact makes me flinch. Thanks for bringing that up.

[@BasedZoomer]

Well, not as harsh as being laughed at, but when I brought it up to my therapist, with what I thought was evidence, she kind of chuckled and said definitely not. I don't think she was trying to be mean, and I think at the time I really had myself convinced. Some years have passed, and despite what I thought and the ways I still relate to those on the spectrum (I mean, on the RAADS-R and the AQ I score well above the threshold, so I definitely relate in a lot of ways), I think she was right. Though I stopped seeing her after that and am too embarrassed to see her again. Maybe your therapist is right? It's totally fine to relate to the symptoms and struggles of those on the spectrum while not being on the spectrum. Though it is never wrong to seek a second opinion, and if you have the means you should definitely seek out a specialist who would be able to better identify the cause of your struggles if you want that kind of peace of mind. Someone who specializes in autism, especially in adult diagnosis would be much better suited to screen and test you that simply a licensed therapist (there's a world of difference between people who can give psych diagnosis and those who can give therapy). Oh, to add, I try to present myself well and I am a mixed woman (white and black). I am told I seem well spoken and outgoing when in reality I am actually very reclusive and socially anxious, this is why I felt like I related to you well enough to give input.

[@k.polanchekfntp8033]

Thank you. Very helpful. I feel calloused sometimes and yet, I feel deeply. No one knows how my empathy for people and animals impacts my life, I put up a shield each day to face the world. I have to try really hard to understand how someone else feels, it does not come naturally. But I really do care.

[@JanBaucke]

"Empathy is the capacity to understand or feel what another person is experiencing from within their frame of reference, that is, the capacity to place oneself in another's position." If you can't do that, you have no Empathy. If you care about others is not needed to be empathic but very helpful. On the other side one can be empathic and still don't care.

[@BigSmiley0TV]

Some of what you said made me think of how it's good to remember the golden rule, which is to treat other people how you would like to be treated, but the platinum rule is to treat other people how they would like to be treated. A person does not need empathy or knowledge of another person who is in need to treat someone else how they would like to be treated in a situation, but a person needs empathy or at least knowledge of the person in need to treat them how they would like to be treated in their situation and time of need. This is where communication must come into play to try and bridge the gap, and personally i can sometimes be quite blunt, because I'd rather directly ask someone how i can help, or ask what they need, than for me to do nothing or the wrong thing. Sometimes i will even ask if someone is ok and would rather be alone if attempts to break through or to comfort don't seem to help, depending upon the situation or person. Sometimes I've found all one can do is to sit with someone and wait with them for a break in the clouds to let them know you will ride out the storm with them but for the most part the truth of an existential crisis that breaks someone down to tears is a personal experience and they are the ones that are having to live through it and must lift themselves out, even if offered a helping hand, the brunt of heavy lifting will always be on them to be ok with continuing on. Im not personally good with the placating banter of the usual sorta "there there, everything will be ok", because that's a lie, since if you carry any story long enough they all end in a bit of tragedy, with death and loss as inevitable, but sometimes even placating by an amateur liar is worth a shot

[@xequals-pc1wl]

Very well expressed. I don't tend to feel very empathetic towards people unless I shut my eyes and imagine myself in their shoes at which point I'm often overcome with intense emotion.

[@HannahJoy333]

I am an Aspergers woman with way too much empathy. Average people just don’t know how to see or feel it BUT I agave realized that my fellow autistic people are very aware of it and very drawn to my empathy and ability to bring them peace.

[@x.pillsnraz0rblades.x]

This video was really helpful for me in my journey of discovering my autism, thank you. I always assume that when someone is upset, it's best to give them space (let them "cool down") since they're not in the state of mind to speak rationally about what's upsetting them (if I did wish to speak with them). When I'm upset, the last thing I want is to engage in conversation or receive physical contact, since my body feels like its burning up and my head's about to explode. If I were to speak with someone about what upset me, I need to have thought through the situation myself first and be in a clearer state of mind. Due to our differences in communication styles, my mom and I have had many bumps, twists, and turns in our relationship. I have been called "manipulative," "selfish," and so forth, upon which I began obsessively researching psychopathology, convincing myself that I have no empathy and my whole life is a lie. Learning about autism has allowed me to sort through my true feelings and desert this irrational train of thought. Thank you. 🖤

[@Princess-dj4ls]

In essence, this is a good explanation and I appreciate it - but what I find a downside is that you repeat some things too often. The weird thing is, my aspie husband often says to me, "if you had said less, I would have understood it better..."

[@gaetanklein-peakstatesther5867]

Oh, thanks for the feedback ! I definitely mean to improve myself :)

[@inglbrute]

I can relate with him tho. I do find myself repeating things sometimes because I'm not satisfied, or maybe I just don't know, when/if the other person understands what I'm saying. But on the flip side, it drives me crazy when someone tends to repeat themselves during a conversation, or maybe tells me the same story over and over.

[@lanpcs]

i think the difference is not that autistic people lack or have lower empathy its that we have a deep aversion to drama. neurotypical people love drama and wear their emotions were ever they go and want to share em with everyone. for me i empathize deeply even choke back a tear when my friend is in tears cos someone she loved dearly just died or a kid is sobbing cos they being bullied but when my sister phones me to go on about her partner cheating on her for the umtheenth time just to take him back yet again its just exhausting. Any adult can empaphize with being cheated on, or children being bullied etc we all know what we want to do to the a**hole that hurt our sister and we all know what it feels like when they go back to them, once or twice yeah we get it, we understand but eventually sorry but its just drama and feeling sorry for them then or feeling their emotions is no longer called empathy its called enabling. And neurotypical people also never really say what they mean or mean what they say even when in an emotional state it be like "hey whats wrong" they be like, tell you a long story go here there and everywhere not actually telling why theiy're crying so you sit and listen for and hour or two then feeling rather concerned "ok, so why are you crying", "cos fluffy died", "oh you mean your cat that died 20 years ago" "yeah" "oh, erm ok erm ok erm erm sooooo you need a hug" (you know i'm really weirded out by hugs but i'll give you one if you need it). "no i don't need a hug i'm just remembering fluffy, its her 20 year anniversary, and my bottle of wine is almost empty whaaaaah "ok so i go buy you another bottle" "yes please, thanks" "you're welcome, glad you feel better," phew

[@lovesees4320]

We feel You... literally 🕊️ 💧💦🌊❤️🌏

[@kimberleyjackson]

I think that a clear line must be drawn between compassion and empathy here. Empathy, I feel, is grossly misunderstood by a vast majority of people and it is definitely not the desirable holy grail that it's usually portrayed as. Empathy is essentially the ability to put yourself into another person's shoes and thus grasp on an intuitive level what they're going through and that leads to often being just as affected by those emotions. You understand it on a deeply emotional level, the intensity of grief or the emotional complexity of a specific individual. You grasp the emotional current in a room and pick up on small emotional undercurrents. Compassion is the desire to help people, compassion is what makes us feel sorry for people also. Most of the examples that you mention in your video seem to go along the lines of compassion. For example, when watching a really sad movie, - compassion is feeling sorry for all the horrible things the characters go through and wanting to help - empathy is crying with the characters because you put yourself in their situation and for a moment actually feel their sadness, their grief, their despair. It is important here to distinguish between KNOWING WHAT A PERSON IS FEELING and KNOWING WHAT A PERSON NEEDS. It is in general not possible to know what another person might need. In fact, I have experienced people who claim to be highly empathic and say that they intuitively know what other people need to be the LEAST empathic, because usually they project their own expectations and experiences on other people. That is not empathy though, it is in fact more moving towards the opposite. For example: when they are grieving, they need people around and would like to be hugged. So they think it's empathic to give another person a hug when they are grieving. We are each of us individuals with our own unique experiences, needs, fears, traumas and desires. So how could we all need the same thing? In general, what I perceive as very empathic is when people do not assume I need a certain thing. I am not a machine that works according to a manual. The people I perceive as most empathic are those who ask questions: Are you alright? Is there anything I can do to help? What do you need right now? How do you feel about situation ABC? That takes into account that we are all different people in different contexts. We might not all want people around when we're sad or grieving. Some people might want to be left alone. Others prefer to be among their group of friends. Recognizing that whatever we ourselves might need in a specific situation might not be at all what another person might need because they are a completely different person and not an extension of ourselves is a core component of empathy. And as far as empathy in general is concerned: I am a bit frustrated by the pop culture trend to make empathy almost a sacred trait. We all have empathy to an extent (almost, true psychopaths being the exception here according to currect research), but if it exceeds normal levels, it becomes very destructive. I was told by a therapist that I was too high on empathy which led to me being unable to set boundaries because I put everyone else ahead of myself. For example: someone hurt me or lied to me, but instead of reacting angrily, I recalled what they were going through and how hard it must be for them. In the end, I tolerated a lot of abuse because of it and I fell into depression. It took years of training to "unlearn some empathy" as he called it. Empathy is a double edged sword as it can lead to losing the sense of self when too high. And it can be tormenting. That said, people who are lower on the spectrum for empathy are not worse people! They probably make better doctors, better lawyers, better nurses, etc. than someone high on empathy because people who are high on empathy cannot tolerate environments with high-intensity emotions for too long as it is immensely draining.

[@AdamKyles]

I'm confused. If you don't put yourself in somebody else's shoes, how can you have compassion, since you won't know that they feel hurt? I can see that sympathy and empathy aren't the same thing, but surely you need empathy in order to have compassion.

[@kimberleyjackson]

@@AdamKyles Not necessarily, as compassion is something where the brain is more active on a rational level. We don't need empathy to know how another person feels, as there are plenty of external cues. Microexpressions play a vital role here. You can know another person is sad by their sad face without also feeling sad on an intuitive level. That being said, please let me clarify that I did not mean to say that all autistic people don't have empathy. Empathy, as many other things, is a spectrum and it is very rare to be completely devoid of it. And autism itself is a spectrum with many different conditions and severities. What I was trying to say, also because I read a lot of comments here where people thought they were somehow worse as humans for scoring low on empathy: Empathy does not determine whether you are a good person or not. Being low on empathy can be a huge advantage. There are pretty good articles on the subject, I will link one below. But also keep in mind that this is still a field that is researched, and even scientists are not entirely sure yet. Up until some years ago for example it was believed that several people with antisocial personality disorders had no empathy (specifically studied on the case of serial killers). Now it is believed that they are in fact extremely high on empathy, because many of them were exceptionally good at reading their victims, knowing their fears and desires and thus manipulating them. What they actually lack is compassion and a moral/ethical code. "Empathy" or "Being an empath" is thrown around on welness sites as if it were a badge of honor. "Empaths" don't exist and being high on empathy has in fact many downsides and almost always requires serious work with a therapist. So even if some of you score lower on empathy, please do not let it bring you down. It has nothing to do with being a good person. In general, you are a good person if you are actually concerned with being a good person. If you are trying to better yourself and try not to inflict harm on others. Here's a very good article on the difference between compassion and empathy: www.forbes.com/sites/rasmushougaard/2020/07/08/four-reasons-why-compassion-is-better-for-humanity-than-empathy/?sh=47544cd9d6f9

[@salamalmudarris5032]

But a percentage of autistic people say that their empathy is weak and that they feel cold towards others. However, autistic people have a strong sense of moral duty and justice, and this sometimes compensates for the weakness or absence of empathy. On the other hand, the weakness of social understanding exacerbates the problem and makes those who live with the autistic suffer, especially when they are his partner.

[@elsagrace3893]

Lately claiming autism spectrum is a fad. Most are not. They just have really poor social skills due to bad parenting coupled with a know-it-all-ness that leads them to believe that the deficit in the skill of empathy is due to something (Autism) beyond their control. It’s a huge cop out to acceptance of a skill deficit as a permanent personality trait so they feel don’t have to accept responsibility of learning now. It’s really rude to those around them.

[@sidarthur8706]

they might be experiencing an inability to identify feelings. of course i can't know that for sure

[@inglbrute]

I know I'm difficult for my wife sometimes. I feel bad, but I don't know what to do about it. She is so awesome tho, and I am afraid she's just goig to get fed up one day.

[@gabriellahsdancingheart8808]

Thank you for putting this into words! So good! May I say, "merci?"

[@cretinousswine8234]

I'm really struggling to figure out if I have social anxiety or am just autistic. I think both. The autism created social barriers which led to anxiety. The double empathy problem has been a factor in my life. My outward aloofness causes people to act coldly towards me, which in turn fuels my sense of isolation and makes me resentful. Then I lose empathy for others. It's like a self fulfilling prophecy.

[@JC-yb8hz]

I'm struggling with this whole empathy thing. I mostly feel it for animals and children. But most of the time I'm either just anxious (I have GAD because of the ASD - it was diagnosed as an adult so I went through a lot of crap ) or feel like I don't feel anything/can't make myself care. It's like I know things logically, but don't feel the emotion or the emotion is super low level. Not questioning my diagnosis as a whole, just wondering about this particular part of it. Like, I'm left wondering who all the emotionally sensitive people with ASD are/what they are like? Because I kind of joke that I'm emotionally dead inside. But I'm also the kind of person who wants to adopt animals with health issues, or be a foster parent to a child.

[@discipulaaeterna4389]

Maybe you don't feel adult person's emotions because you can't see tiny hints that that person gives you? Animal and children are much more expressive, their "main" emotions are typically easier to read. I usually feel very empathetic to a person if he tells me directly what he exactly feels.

[@Chronicskillness]

I'm on the spectrum and I feel empathy very strong.

[@drnanard9605]

I think people confuse empathy and sympathy. Sympathy is the ability to _show_ that you care, it's performative. Empathy is the ability to _feel_ .

[@thomasjamison2050]

One thing I have to deal with is that a lot of people, and particularly people of color, will assume that I am a cop. At times this has actually been helpful because I used to do a lot of contractual work in minority neighborhoods with high crime rates and no one ever bothered me. I learned this from an employee I had for a couple years who explained it to me when I once pointed out that I never seemed to run into any problems in those places. It's my demeanor, I suppose, but truth be told it makes me sad to think people assume that, and this is particularly true when I sense that they are being especially wary of me.

[@gaetanklein-peakstatesther5867]

Thank you for sharing ! I am sorry to read that it makes you sad to see people perceiving you this way. On the other side, you might have developed subtle nuances in your posture, voice, gaze, demeanor, as a survival mechanism to send the message "don't mess with me" and it works. So you can see it as a positive thing.

[@thomasjamison2050]

@@gaetanklein-peakstatesther5867 It's been a somewhat strange life at times. I suppose one could think of it as a form of Halloween masking. Masking for a purpose other than just trying to blend in with NT's. I never felt any great desire to blend in. All through grade school I would just find a nice warm spot in the sun and just watch all the others do whatever they felt was appropriate at recess. I never had any urge to join in and was just content to watch them and think. I seem to have gotten this from my mother who was an only child who grew up in a rectory. She greatly enjoyed going to Church meetings and just watching the people play out their existence, so to speak, but never would enter into any discussions or such. In her later years I would go with her and was a bit surprised to find she was better at the game than I was. Those situations are more political than religious. I suppose she got this from her father who was the parish priest, and I think that is basically the best thing for them to do. Not get involved politically but pay close attention to personality types and such. If you lead you will only eventually take a misstep and do more damage than good. Best to follow the flock and watch for the ones getting lost.

[@AlastorTheNPDemon]

It makes total sense that people on the AS have the full range of empathy. I have it and I hate it; that glass wall is a killer. Thing is though, I have an empathy deficit too. I look out for No. 1 at all times.

[@ShabbaRankss]

I completely agree with this speaker. Essentially, due to a difference in “neurotype,” a misunderstanding exists amidst neurotypical people regarding neurodivergent people (specifically those with autism or similar conditions of varying severity.) I consider it a bias of sorts, since it is mostly an assumption made by neurotypical individuals that when someone who’s neurodivergent is unable to communicate and display certain qualities (i.e. empathy, etc.) in an orthodox manner, it means they don’t possess these qualities at all. This assumption is false of course.

[@spocksdaughter9641]

I look forward to returning to read all the comments. I hoped my version of double empathy would be covered. The content was excellent for NTs. My over developed sense of recognizing others sense states, is useless many times because I offer a level of recognition, from that position perhaps Dr Spock like, verbalize describing causality and options misses when pity seems desired? I wish to validate, commiserate, perhaps suggest reframe possibilities... shifting options To shorten their suffering. the sinking deeper helping the suffering vs offering 'getting a grip' I can't fathom how long is needed by a slow brain. I really do and believe in touch. Offer Chinese pressure point message or being out doors for getting grounded. I think the timing problem in my case obviously not useful to a neurochemical dominated state, lost drowning far from options let alone my presumptions!! Bty I don't cry and think it would be helpful. F Western American age 70 dx by accident at age 56 in the UK PS if you've lived a life being out of step you get real keen abt patterns. Worse being suddenly old one does not know how to make even more allowances do to my privilege of lived experiences. Most of which I would prefer others avoid. I do feel double, their misery and my own relived.

[@Giganfan2k1]

4:18 Or be me ask them what they need then try to provide that.

[@CorazonDeCristoCano]

Awesome video. It's very informative. I'm puzzled with respect to the title: The Double Empathy Problem in Asperger's Syndrome. I'll admit I could be completely wrong here. This is just how I see it, absent further clarification. I don't understand why this is called the "double" empathy problem. This just seems to be a simple empathy problem. There may be different neurotypes, but there's only one kind of empathy: the ability to understand and feel what another person feels. The neurotype is irrelevant. Either you can empathize with the other person or you can't. If people of differing neurotypes can't authentically feel or understand what the other is experiencing, then they just can't empathize with that type of person, end of story. Also, I don't understand why this is framed as a "problem in Asperger's Syndrome." The problem seems to reside between those with Asperger's and those without, instead of residing inside one or the other.

[@Domdeone1]

When l was at school, a long time ago l used to imagine briefly what it would be like to be someone else-knowing l was different from those people & vice versa. Still pondering why have spent life on the fence, bit miserable really

[@AleksPTA]

Great video, you have made some great points, much appreciated

[@gaetanklein-peakstatesther5867]

Thank you !

[@susiwakeman4271]

Absolutely x fabulous video x thank you and much love and God bless from the UK xx

[@theresjer]

I have experienced what I can best describe as 'empathy' for some machines around me, and realize that a role for me is to translate... So I worked in maintenance

[@Winstonsmom]

This is so interesting. It adds nuance to the discussion for sure. Bottom line… less judging. We all have different strengths. Just because you aren’t skilled at being a caregiver… does not mean you don’t care.

[@UnfinishedRiot]

I am not on the spectrum, but I deeply relate to the inability to read between the lines. The whole world is in on this social game, I can see it, sometimes I can tinker with it with trial and error. I cannot deeply grasp it. I love people! I just cannot understand how the game is played. It's horrible, you can't make friends without effort, but any effort is "trying too hard." So I just love people from a distance, appreciating them.

[@la381]

4:36 no, both are NOT correct. You're talking about apples and oranges. One is an appropriate social behavior and the other is what you do in private. Do you wear your underwear out on the street and nothing else because THAT'S what you need???

[@radosaworman7628]

I never heard about autistic ppl not having empathy. I heard about them not being good at empathising with someone else.

[@barbarasunday3514]

My daughter is newly diagnosed as an adult, and she's extremely empathetic.

[@CSDragon]

3:12 that's not empathy, that's just compassion. In fact, you've described exactly what a lack of empathy is. He sees her emotions and doesn't feel them himself, he instead thinks "I don't know why she's sad. How can I stop her from being sad?". That's exactly how I would be in the same situation as well as an Aspie. An empathetic person does not care why they're sad. They simply share emotions to help them work through their sadness.

[@WhyplayGaming]

I'm a strange one when I was younger I wanted to dedicate my time too understanding why people do the things we do. I ended up with a good idea of what people wont in certain situations despite not understanding why. Growing up I often felt out of place I did not know anything about autism until I was in my 20s. I sometimes even though I was scicotic but I knew this wasn't true because I had a lot of empathy . Now I act as a bridge between different autistic people and non autistic people and act like a translator for many of my friends. Understanding and exposure is very important for both ends of neurological types. I often hear the term she don't have feelings because she autistic and it's a very horrible thing too say, its something in had been told many times myself.

[@artamol9709]

i think part of the miscommunication comes from empathy refering to two different things; cognitive and affective empathy. "Lacking empathy" could mean that you see people around you suffering without feeling sorry for them, but it could also mean that you have a hard time understanding what other people are feeling. As autistic people often struggle to read social cues, understanding what goes on in other peoples mind, or "reading" them, as people say, could be difficult

[@Velossitee]

I am high functioning with autism (that term on your video which is outdated for some reason) and I've been able to empathize with neurotypicals but it's been hard to socialize normally without speaking my thoughts. I usually don't think before I speak because it's hard to process sentences sometimes and then I get cut off by someone else. I have to wait patiently often just to speak again and when people joke around and act like I don't exist in the conversation I take offense to it when there's a third strike I gave and I leave til the next day or someone says sorry.

[@rubycubez1103]

Aspie here. I have tooo much empathy to the point it sometimes gets in the way of my rational brain. I can stand next to someone and feel what they feel in their body. But on the flip side, I can feel extremely uncomfortable if someone is crying and needs comforting at times. I can physically say and do the right things but on the inside I'm screaming.

[@americatruecrime]

Great work

[@Yupppi]

I know tons of people not on the spectrum who don't know how to act in some awkward social situations that are not that common in the culture. Or people who are blunt or lack tactfulness. Also communication between genders seems sometimes like a big mystery of completely different languages. And then there's a lot of people who assume that their reactions deserve reactions appropriate in their opinion, not considering the people reacting to your reactions have their own interests, ways to behave etc. Like it's not obvious to me that everyone is automatically inclined to console someone who starts crying, it's context dependent. And they're not necessarily emotionally cold even if they don't do that for someone. But none of these miscommunications or interpreting differently is helped by assuming others have to react the way you want. And I think this is becoming a problem in some societies these days: treating it like one way street where others should be tolerant and behave like you want, but you don't have to tolerate them and their ways. I've dated or am friends with a few girls on the spectrum, and it might be highly dependent on where in the spectrum they lie, but many of them have been extremely hilarious with their sense of humour and ability of literacy (reading between the lines and interpreting linguistic trickery correctly, much better than "normal" people), furthermore they've been extremely easy to talk to when you don't have to go dancing through weird protocols of when you can talk about what, but you can just go straight in the business and discuss matters over how you approach them. They're often a relief in exhausting or boring interactions with people and you can develop much deeper friendships with them faster I experience.

[@pixywings]

Yeah when I start crying I want everyone to go away.

[@Nyctophora]

Thank you, that does explain a lot!

[@randallgoldapp9510]

I understand this because it happens to me a lot. After a lifetime of this bullshit it's nice to have an idea of what is going on.

[@nancienordwick4169]

We have empathy in excess. Hypersensitivly even. We just make decisions based on logic more often.

[@feryalaligauhar3905]

Your post has distressed me deeply. I was married for nine years to a "high-functioning autistic" who was brilliant. I had no understanding of autism at that time, and recall that before we married, my husband to be had mentioned that he had been diagnosed with autism when he was quite young. However, he had become a doctor at age 23, married, and had a child. That marriage failed after five years and his wife left with their son who was a minor. Under Islamic law, she could seek a divorce but her husband did not have to "grant" her one. She was unable to divorce her husband due to his unwillingness to "let her have her way". There was a deep sense of resentment that she had left, taking their son with her. He did everything in his power to prevent the divorce. All this happened while he was courting me. I was unaware of this situation as when we married, he claimed that his previous marriage had been annulled, which, I discovered years later, was untrue. He refused to see his son even when I made arrangements with the lawyer for visitation rights. Once he married me, he refused intimacy in case I became pregnant, something he wanted to avoid as he felt his son would resent another child. In nine years I felt rejected, dismissed, broken. Where was the empathy? And what's the point of empathy if one can't express it? Ironically, after a bitter divorce, which he resented deeply, I fell in love with another brilliant man who would not touch me, not sit next to me, but who had a closet full of hard core sado masochistic pornography. He told me one can be intimate without physical interaction, that people who want to be held or touched are just "needy" and "clingy".... In his porn collection (which was a secret from me), men would whip women with leather sheaths before performing violent sex. Clearly, there was no intimacy there but this person clearly enjoyed this kind of "physical contact". His mother was schizophrenic and murdered his father, his youngest sister committed suicide, and his elder sister has three children, now adults, who are schizophrenic and autistic. Am I to understand that this man, too, is autistic, and that I am the Mother of Self-Flagellation? It was hell getting through these two relationships which pushed me towards suicide until I realized I was expecting just some love and warmth from people who were just not equipped to express these emotions. Do you really, seriously, believe that it is so easy to cope with such deeply assymetrical relationships where a neurotypical person can back off and "give space" to an autistic partner, while the autistic partner remains indifferent to the suffering caused by their apparent indifference? It seems like a very long shot in the dark, like a fantastic paint by numbers do it yourself game which ends up destroying all concerned

[@liatresanos3769]

Hello, I read your comment. I'd like to suggest something to you because similarly to my story you seem to be repeating a pattern of lack of contact and severe emotional neglect with your partners that is getting worse (I see the second man worse than the first). Please focus and imagine how you would like to be held and supported in a relationship and try your best not to focus on these horrible people, don't matter if autistic or whatever, FOR YOU they are not good and that is all that matters. I wish I would have discovered this earlier because at 18 years of age I had a "relationship" with a diagnosed psychopath and it left me scarred inside so that the evil seed he planted grew and the next relationship was even worse until I stopped the pattern and my last Man, with who I lived, was a real man in the sense that he could express emotions and be involved with me not just at a sexual level and altough this relationship also ended I have tons of positive memories and it gave me strength. So you can change things by meditating on what you want instead of what you fear, because these situations give us tons of fear and program us to think that maybe we don't deserve to have real human connections. But it can be reversed and I wish that you overcome the dehumanization process just like I did. Those guys are not normal, forget them and do not try to understand them, take care of yourself. All that you can improve for yourself and discover inside yourself is a thousand times worthier than wondering how you should understand better that poor little pervert who is putting you down.

[@feryalaligauhar3905]

@@liatresanos3769 Thank you so much for your response and advice. It is such a relief to be understood, finally. Thank you again, and accept my affection and appreciation all the way from Pakistan. (yes, the second man was worse, and I am healing after leaving him. No more Self Flagellation!)

[@Person-ef4xj]

Coming from someone with autism, I think the first was a mean person regardless of whether or not he had autism, but because he was autistic you might have been more inclined to let him get away with being a horrible person to you. Just as there's good and bad neurotypicals I think there's also good and bad people with autism, but I think since neurotypicals don't fully know how autism might effect someone it can be easier for a neurotypical to let a bad person get away with something if they happen to be autistic.

[@gzoechi]

I always discarded asperger because "missing empathy" was mentioned as common sign and my problem is rather way too much empathy.

[@sheep1ewe]

Thank You! I can certanly relate a lot to what You are saying here.

[@gaetanklein-peakstatesther5867]

Thanks 🙏

[@creativesolutionsart-h3o]

This always used to cause problems between me and my roommate. if he perceived me to be upset or disturbed in a mild way, he would ask a lot of intrusive questions and I just wanted to be left alone. So I would seem rude. Conversely if I observed him to be A little off or in a bad mood, I would just leave him alone and not say too much. I guess this seemed rude to him or uncaring. it would take a very obvious situation of true chaos or crisis, for it to be obvious what I should do or what was expected of me. overtime, this dynamic just caused us to drift more and more apart as friends. after my diagnosis, I tried to explain these things to him and just became better at stating obvious feelings, at least obvious to me. :-) I have a lot of empathy but I am very practical, I just want to know what to do or not to do and I usually need the other person to tell me. Otherwise I assume most people just want to be left alone. Like me :-)

[@AllyGray]

What a great explanation ❤

[@gaetanklein-peakstatesther5867]

Thank you.