The Dull Side of Edged Weapons

[@Sr_ECO]

It makes sense why axes really don't need to be that sharp considering their most lethal factor is the impact, still feels kinda weird that soldiers in the civil war used blunt sabers considering most swords don't have that much mass

[@wingardwearables]

Yeah, obviously a sharp saber would be far more effective.

[@jeffjag2691]

I remember Matt from ScholaGladiatoria mentioned that sabers often came blunt in both America and Europe and sharpening was an extra service charge.

[@wingardwearables]

Interesting-I reckon most in the Civil War must have opted not to pay for the service

[@TrashyButClassy1776]

This video was actually super informative. I never thought about animals and the weapons that they have, they’re usually not that sharp! Very eye opening

[@wingardwearables]

Thank you for the comment and hope life is treating you well 👍

[@gozer87]

The metal scabbard also contributed to the dull edge of a saber. Several military reformers complained that the British military kept their swords too dull. I think there are some French army sources have the same complaint.

[@wingardwearables]

Interesting-I had assumed European armies had more discipline and dueling culture and would do a better job at keeping sabers sharp.

[@gozer87]

@Wingard Wearables I think the issue was that sabers were kept dull for training and parade and only sharpened before campaigns. Officers, responsible for purchasing their own gear and likely schooled more formally in fencing, probably kept their swords sharp. There's a book called Swordsmen of the British Empire that has heaps of accounts from Britsh troops starting from Napoleon and going to the Sudanese uprising.

[@JCOwens-zq6fd]

The fact that our soldiers were issued unlined metal scabbards kept their swords from being sharp as they could be. Britain had rhe same problem. You do find some antiques (usually officers examples) with liners to fix this problem but most were indeed not very good at cutting. Without that liner even if one put an edge on their saber, as soon as one sheathed & unsheathed again the edge would be knocked off. Now when it comes to the UK & their Raj it was quite a bit more common for their soldiersto use wood lined scabbards like the Indian Warriors did b/c of how often they needed the cut against those particular opponents.

[@MrLeonidas0001]

I didn’t realize the spontoons weren’t sharpened but I did know about the spikes - it makes more sense to me to have spikes non-sharpened.

[@wingardwearables]

Yeah, or if they are sharpened, they need to be curved downward. That also reduces risk of self injury.

[@MrLeonidas0001]

@@wingardwearables Yeah I feel you on that 👌🏼

[@MrLeonidas0001]

Cool story about the Creek War arrowhead 😎🇺🇸

[@wingardwearables]

Thank you-wish I had a picture of it to share

[@MrLeonidas0001]

@@wingardwearables Well the story is cool 😎

[@slingshotwarrrior8105]

For a dagger, a dull edge is best! I have a Sheffield Reaper throwing spear and the spear blade is dull, however, it can make some nasty punctures.

[@wingardwearables]

Yeah the contact pressure in the thrust can be incredibly high. After I did the video I came across an old Chinese folding spike bayonet I had long misplaced. Would have been mounted onto their SKS or AK-47 variant. The chisel tip didn’t have an edge at all-most of my flat head screwdrivers had thinner edges. Still, no doubt it would have no issue punching thru someone.

[@davidgeldner2167]

This is not only fascinating but confirms what I suspected for a great deal of time. I really appreciate it, and can’t wait to learn more.

[@justified_edc]

I love the video of the old British commando talking about the F/S dagger in which he talks about taking out a sentry by inserting the knife behind the jugular and then punching out the front “removing the whole lot”. Makes a lot of sense with what you were talking about with them having blunted edges.

[@wingardwearables]

Yeah I remember that video! I imagine that technique was performed with quite a bit of force. Pretty horrible. Also I remember watching the instructional video “Surviving Edged Weapons”- (don’t watch if squeamish). Showed a lot of close up pictures of folks who unfortunately were killed with edged weapons. One of the most gruesome wounds was inflicted with a table fork. With enough force, a blunt edge will tear a terrible looking hole.

[@justified_edc]

@@wingardwearables oh man I had forgotten about Surviving Edged Weapons, it’s very informative but also kinda hilarious at times lol

[@wingardwearables]

@@justified_edc Yeah that film had some hilarious scenes-cavemen, satanists, ballistic knives-it had it all!

[@John..18]

Fantastic video,, very informative,, thanks,, 👍👍

[@wingardwearables]

Thank you and glad you enjoyed it!

[@davidgeldner2167]

Excellent.

[@B-leafer]

If i were obtaining any "edged" weapon for the purpose of display, possibly i wouldn't bother sharpening it. However, if i were planning on using it, i guarantee you it would be as sharp as the particular steel would bear, which includes possibly altering the grind bevels making them narrower than factory allowing for deeper cuts. I take carrying and using my bladed tools extremely seriously. My dad always told me, "a sharp knife or axe is a safe one.." meaning less force is needed to make a particular cut. Also, if you get cut by a very sharp knife it will heal faster, in many cases much faster than a dull blade. It historically has been the practice to not use the blade you plan on defending yourself with, thus preserving the edge, and using an alternative knife for utilitarian chores. That way your defensive weapon is always ready for the fight. I actually practice this personally and generally save my large blade using my smaller one for camp chores.

[@wingardwearables]

Interesting perspective on preserving the edge on the weapon vs. using a blade for both utility and combatives. Reminds me that I didn’t really touch on any of the potential utility applications for these “dull” edged weapons. I suspect leaving them unsharpened meant these weren’t intended for utility applications at all.

[@thomaslux6673]

During the American Civil War factory produced sabres tended to be shipped unsharpened for the safety of the sword during transport, for the safety of the recipient, and as a cost savings measure. Some (Captain Whittaker?) did complain bitterly about the lack, or inconsistent adoption of sharp swords, but that tended to depend upon the preferences of the regimental colonel. Trying to find references, but I have heard that there was a preference (or simply a lack of interest in sharpening) dull sabres unless combat was expected because as dull tools they could be used to police camp, motivate "shirkers", and serve as crowd control devices. Although they did see some use during the American Civil War (primarily by cavalry/raiding parties), by the mid 19th century sabres were primarily serving as indicators of rank and as signaling devices for directing one's own troops. Edged weapons retained a much longer functional use in European overseas colonies.

[@wingardwearables]

Thank you for the detailed comment. I think those reasons make sense. I hadn’t come across any accounts of it, but could believe blunt sabers were used to hit fellow soldiers. Most people are not taught in history class about the rather cruel treatment of soldiers by their own sergeants and officers. Even through WW2.

[@Slingbanter]

Im i trested in desighning a tomahawk for edc your my greatest impression for this mate ive just recently got into them and im well under budgeted to buy your tomahawks but your definitely a driving force for me in this

[@wingardwearables]

Great to hear from you and am glad to share your passion for this very niche’ topic. Best regards

[@horseface31]

This was enlightening

[@wingardwearables]

Thank you

[@jakelawson6180]

Sabres would have come dull, then service sharpened before or during a campaign. However most Americans preferred to use pistols and were not real fond of either the M1840 wrist breaker or the M1860 light Calvary Sabre- so most didn’t sharpen them. The wounds that were caused by these blunt sabres were most likely there because the trooper could not use his pistol or the sword was a last resort. Several of my American and European military sabres are sharp and we’re serviced sharpened in that period. American troopers for the most part just didn’t even try to sharpen them.

[@wingardwearables]

Yeah there seems to have been a distaste for using the Sabre in combatives-at least in many of the American units

[@GOxHAM]

Very interesting topic. I enjoy these longer winded explanation videos that have history to it. Subscribed! Didn’t realize non sharpened edge weapons were used for that length of a period. The Saber example from old medical text was pretty cool. Many many fantastic examples. I’ve always wondered how old photos would depict soldiers biting their daggers without cutting their mouths, they were dull triangular spikes! 🤯

[@wingardwearables]

Thank you for the comment. It does make me wonder how common it was for soldiers, frontiersmen, sailors, etc to bite the blades of their edged weapons. I also wonder “why?” and can come up with only the niche’ scenarios. May have to do a video on this topic in the future.

[@RM-bx2zt]

I always thought that when you saw someone with a knife in their mouth it was because they wanted it available more quickly or conveniently them in a knife sheath, or maybe they did not have a knife sheath at all. Like when you see a seamstress or a tailor with common pens in their mouths, or Carpenter with a few Nails in their mouths. That may have been the most convenient or fastest place to put them. But that's just what I assume.

[@foxcombatives]

Always one of the 12👍. In general I agree sharper is better. With spike hawks particularly I think armor might be one of the answers. Not body armor but the skull. If I’m not mistaken most historical accounts of tomahawks attacks were exclusively attacks to the head. Matt Easton of scholagladiatora has a great video on this. The skull is essentially armor, and quite strong. For piercing something like that a pointy spike is excellent but sharp edges can actually creat drag when entering that dull edges do not. It’s one of the reasons a simple #2 pencil will penetrate skull easier than many steal knives. I’m thinking of the spike on a hawk working much like a spike on a war hammer.

[@wingardwearables]

Thanks for this comment. I should do a video on some archeological digs where they found skulls of folks on the frontier that got tomahawk’d. All the skull trauma was from the chopping blade side, so far I haven’t come across evidence that the spike side was used in warhammer like blows to the head, but it must have happened-we just don’t have many archeological examples. It’s also possible that the spike side was used more for back cuts and meathooking techniques, to rapidly transition from chops to spike-side buried into soft tissues to tear an opponent to ground. Unfortunately the combative techniques were mostly lost-the historic accounts I’ve seen so far are vague, and the vast majority of folks that were killed by tomahawks were buried in frontier graves or just left to rot. Skeletal remains from tomahawk attacks are few and far between.

[@foxcombatives]

@@wingardwearables so much has been lost from that period. From what I’ve seen on historical examples (and my knowledge is limited so I would bow to your expertise) there were a variety in types and shapes of spikes. Some seem rather straight and ideal for puncturing (war hammer style) others downright curved and ideal for meathooking, like your back rippers. That actually leads to another question I’ve had with hawks. I learned (and practice) hooking and trapping techniques with the beard. Your backripper has gotten me into using the spike for that and the chopping side for strikes. I wonder what happened historically and what mix of these there was. Could be regional and tribal differences as well.

[@wingardwearables]

@@foxcombatives I appreciate your thoughts. I think the straight spikes can be effective at specific “meat hooking” techniques, but requires more room to do so than the curved spikes (which can meat hook in very limited space). I also think the straight spikes were ideal for the throw-where the tomahawk is spinning in flight and impacting a person at random orientation. A plain, hammer poll, or curved spike tomahawk significantly reduces the penetrative capacity in the throw-but the straight spike definitely improves your chances. Also historically there are very, very few examples of tomahawks with pronounced bearded chopping blades. Today a lot of tomahawks on the market of pronounced beards, often sharpened. This seems popular, and I think it’s because they look cool and have some niche’ capabilities as breaching tools. The grappling aspect does work but, in my opinion, it’s a bad trade off because now the tomahawk’s chopping blade is almost guaranteed to get hung up on fabric and tissues-it’s an extraction nightmare.

[@True_Mana]

Mahalo Zack what a great video I really enjoyed the knowledge. Looking forward to watching / gaining more knowledge on your videos... I will also be picking up one of your spontoon tomahawk the "EMPRESS TOMAHAWK" it will be my first Wingard Wearables... i make it a point and go out of my way to buy MADE IN THE USA and proud of it... Stay safe and blessed Aloha Zack... 💯🤙🏾

[@wingardwearables]

Thank you for your comment and your kind words. There will be more videos in the works! And I look forward to sending your Empress 👍

[@ns987]

The saber of the US cavalry had a large mass and length, which allowed it to cut even being blunt. But even the sharpened sabers of European officers somewhere in India were sharpened only in the last third of the blade. Parrying was not carried out by the striking part of the saber.The problem is that when you parry the blade or hit the armor with a very sharp edge, it spoils.The same can be said about modern utilitarian knives. Knives for cutting fillets and sushi sharpen sharply, but you can not cut wood and chop logs. Knives for field work cannot thinly cut sushi.😃

[@ericferguson9989]

Lately I've been into making wooden knives for self defense after seeing examples of G10 blades for non-permissive environments. Wood's a lot easier to work with, but very light. Mine weigh between 16 to 20 grammes and are quite dull with rounded edges. They are very concealable and sit nicely in the pocket but are fire hardened and surprisingly stout. Carrying a concealed weapon is illegal in my country but not necessarily to own them so it's more of a hobby ( although I might sell a few at some point).

[@wingardwearables]

A fire hardened hard wooden stake can be surprisingly efficient in the thrust. Both our Empress and Stingray tomahawks have hickory handles that terminate into a pointed chisel tip. Tested against flesh-and-bone targets and these made holes you could stick your thumb into. The forces required to break the skin and bury into flesh was shockingly low, even for fairly “dull” pointed pieces of wood.

[@MrLeonidas0001]

A wood weapon is more effective than no weapon & will definitely get into more locations 👀

[@Sam-pg9sr]

This is a story I heard so it’s most likely completely fabricated, but it is worth a share. I had heard that during the early years of the GWOT that SAS guys were using the FS daggers, be it for tradition or it’s what they had or whatever, and they had an issue of the knives getting stuck so what did they do? They made crude daggers from sheet steel and an angle grinder and made these “ditch daggers” and they would use it and leave it in whoever they were using it on. I had heard that it was used like the clinch knives you see common nowadays. The ones you keep on the front of your armor for if you get tangled up with someone. 99% sure the story is fake, but it’s entertaining enough and I could imagine some crazy things happening in room to room fighting in Iraq.

[@wingardwearables]

Thank you for sharing the story. I agree that it sounds both plausible and unlikely to be verified. I’ve heard enough stories to believe it was common for quality fixed blades to get stolen- a number of instances where a combat blade would “disappear” or get “lost” in shipping and often it was implied that the thief would be support staff or logistics folks looking for a souvenir, etc. so I wouldn’t be surprised if folks made their own blades in theater just to replace a lost one.

[@B.U.K.O.]

Thank you for informative and interesting video as always 👏🏻, keep great content, greetings from Slovakia🇸🇰.

[@wingardwearables]

Thank you 🙏

[@deadronin47]

Interesting and informative I learned something As a person that studies the way of the blade as a self defense and a love of blade I just always assumed that all blades are sharp…it what I get for assuming

[@wingardwearables]

Yeah I hadn’t seen any discussion about it-and I think most would assume the same-that all blades would be sharpened to some degree (as opposed to not at all)

[@deadronin47]

@@wingardwearables 👍👍agreed

[@kiki_8]

very enjoyable and informative videos

[@wingardwearables]

Thank you!

[@adrianovery5]

Really interesting video zac enjoyed that 💯👍🏻

[@wingardwearables]

Thank you!

[@sixxfreak58]

I had a Boker Besh Wedge dagger and it was nothing more than a fancy screw driver. Dull edged but efficient for thrusts.

[@wingardwearables]

Interesting-I never handled one but hoped they would at least have sharp chisel grinds on the sides of the blade.

[@QKVCS]

D.P Magnum ....on the website soon? Special Order ? Specs? Very Nice

[@wingardwearables]

Thank you for your interest! We are working to finalize the scabbard design, then it will be available to order. Will go over the specs in an upcoming video soon. This first batch is small. Fewer than two dozen.

[@QKVCS]

@@wingardwearables definitely watching for it!

[@MrLeonidas0001]

Hey I’m the 13th full watch through-er 👍🏼😅😂

[@wingardwearables]

Always appreciated!

[@MrLeonidas0001]

@@wingardwearables Glad to see you’re still running the channel 🙌🏼

[@bayoubushcraftandsurvival8842]

Enjoyed the video very informative. Most people dont realize how easy it is to penetrate the human body with even a blunt object much less a pointed one. Combat like survival is 90% mental and 10% physical. Most people either run away or succumb after being hit either by sharp or blunt objects even with handguns because the fear of being hit again and the knowledge of it being fatal is overwhelming. If a person takes a hit to the collar bone with the thumper war club that arm would be very disabled and if to the head it would be most likey fatal, and at the very least they would be getting coloring books for Christmas. Hey Zac its must be cold where you are right now, seeing that you are wearing two long sleeves shirts. Im hear in Alabama where i know you are from and thise three suns above me are dreadfull. Lol

[@wingardwearables]

Thank you for the comment-and it’s been cool in the morning but the two shirts are pretty comfortable even in warm weather. The open button up shirt is linen-very breathable fabric. The wife made it for me. I wear it as a covering garment-even in hot weather because it conceals items better, like the Stingray tomahawk that’s under my arm.

[@bayoubushcraftandsurvival8842]

@@wingardwearables well she did a good job on the shirt, I thought it was store bought. I figured you had at least the back ripper on you. Yep I can't wait to get one of those stingrays. Keep up the cool vids.

[@wingardwearables]

@@bayoubushcraftandsurvival8842 oh I definitely had a Backripper tucked in my pants too-but Stingray under my arm definitely needed a covering garment-thanks for the compliment and have a good day!

[@FrogmortonHotchkiss]

Makes me wonder why they didn't carry a more rugged weapon than a sabre - a club or tomahawk, that doesn't lose much performance when dull.

[@wingardwearables]

I think that wouldn’t be considered because a Sabre-and swords in general-held cultural status associated with “gentlemen” and leadership in European and American armies. Warclubs and tomahawks would have been effective but were weapons of the tribes and frontiersmen-both who were looked down upon by anyone aspiring to be a gentleman. I will do a future video about tomahawks vs swords-early in the colonial era the tomahawk was more acceptable, and could be the superior weapon in some instances-but there was a lot more cross cultural contact between colonists and Native tribes in that time.

[@FrogmortonHotchkiss]

@@wingardwearables As I understand it, there is a related and buried history of how the native tribes influenced the ideals of the early republic and Constitution.

[@wingardwearables]

@@FrogmortonHotchkiss yeah, Iroquois Confederacy 👍

[@FrogmortonHotchkiss]

@@wingardwearables Ain't improved since then imo...

[@FrogmortonHotchkiss]

Those 'bonsai charges', man, they were scary... Watch out ya don't get PRUNED, mothalova! 😁

[@wingardwearables]

Banzai, bonsai…tomato, tomahto

[@FrogmortonHotchkiss]

@@wingardwearables heh heh

[@davidgeldner2167]

I would even take this a full step further in the direction of blunt edges being not only necessitated by the material, but in fact stronger for overall killing potential. Sharp edges make the most of the least force, but blunt edges make the most of the most force. There’s a reason bullets don’t have sharp points, because once you accelerate fast enough you actually do not want the sharpness, yes for durability but even with steel. Bone is porous but pound for pound it actually *is* tough like steel…again pound for pound not by volume, keep in mind steel is heavier, but still!

[@wingardwearables]

Thank you for your comments. That is an interesting idea-because I always think of the cutting mechanism as so much more energy efficient vs a “crushing mechanism” like is seen with bullets. And it is. But it also doesn’t “shed” the energy as quickly as a blunter object. This is like using a blunter edged weapon for momentum transfer or “energy” transfer. Will have to think on this some more.

[@davidgeldner2167]

@@wingardwearables To clarify I definitely don’t mean to imply that sharp blades were ineffective, rarely used or anything like that just both are totally valid and there’s clear benefits to using blunt edges! This is really more just a thought than something I believe to be fact but it may explain why the blunter options were chosen so often, as you really succinctly lay out here.

[@davidgeldner2167]

@@wingardwearables It’s definitely a kinda paradoxical concept though because on one hand it’s an absolute fact that the sharper edges are more energy efficient-they make more out of less. With a crazy sharp edge, you need very little force. I think it comes down to different materials like armor vs flesh vs bone absorbing the energy in a different way.

[@wingardwearables]

@@davidgeldner2167 that does make sense!

[@pinarppanrapir9489]

Something worth mentioning too I think the average soldier at that time wouldn't have practiced swordsmanship drills and probably wouldn't know how to do a cut with proper edge alignment. Thrusting is easier (another reason spears were so popular). Sharpening an edge for them would be a waste of time.

[@wingardwearables]

Yeah I definitely think there’s evidence, especially in the American Civil War, that the average soldier didn’t receive a lot of training.

[@patricegarnierlobo25111967]

The bayonets were sharpened in combat; it was legislation and antiquarians who ruled on the dulling of bladed weapons of war; It’s a way of demilitarizing them! the sabers were blunted outside of wartime and sharpened during wartime! go to the war with an dull blade yep certainly!!

[@ryanmccabe1036]

Excuse me, there were 48 of us so far.

[@wingardwearables]

But only 12 make it to the end of the video!

[@lucassmith2332]

Nope im 176

[@nothim7321]

Bayonets are issued dull for training purposes. You are supposed to sharpen them if going to war. Swords were issued dull for the same reason. Axes and machetes are sold with the primary grind, but without final honing and sharpening so that the end users put their own desired sharpness on the tool.

[@wingardwearables]

I hadn’t heard that before. Interesting. Why wouldn’t they just train with the scabbard on? Read accounts and photos of US bayonet training and it was either charging and stabbing the live blade into a static target, or it was bayonet sparring with scabbards on. I just assumed most were dull as a big cost saving measure, since finishing a blade with a sharp edge takes more skill and time than leaving it with an “edge” like the back of a butter knife. I have seen few examples where soldiers took to the trouble of sharpening them-and that would definitely be a chore-especially if you couldn’t access grinding equipment.

[@nothim7321]

@wingardwearables that is how we do it now, yes. Since about WWI. But not always. We have light rifles. 9lbs or less. Even lighter now than before. There are many stories, by the way, of the old triangular shaped socketed bayonets bending during thrusts and failing to penetrate on thick winter clothing... And the old NCO sword, M1840, which was issued unsharpened, being useless as a weapon because it wasn't sharp, wouldn't cut and wouldn't penetrate. Used it as a steel baton and hoped it would bludgeon well enough to be effective. Many stories of the cavalry sabers as well. Because Americans at the time, after the Mexican/American war, were very much reliant on firearms (Colts and other repeating handguns) and personal hand weapons (bowie and riflemen's knives). They were supposed to sharpen them, but didn't take the time. It was an individual soldier's task. They had water and foot powered wheels available to do so, farriers rasps and files as well. They were just too busy or lazy to do so. You should see the service sharpened weapons of the same period from French and English sources. They are often still sharp and, if well taken care of, still capable of delivering debilitating and deadly blows. Americans were never really fond of bayonets and swords in the 19th century. They preferred their big knives and pistols. Or hatchets of various descriptions. Think of the battles they were fighting and where. Who their enemies were. They took great pains to keep them at distance and not let them close to hand to hand distance. Often if it did, the American forces would take a beating.

[@knifehedon.6561]

Badasss