The End of Strategy - with Jordan Hall

[@francestaylor9156]

1:08:19 - God asked me to give up news for Lent this year. I thought it was crazy but I did it because I learned that surrendering to God is a good idea and I’m super glad I did. Learning to live in the present with my family was important. I was so stuck in living online because of what happened in 2020. He told me to let go. It was nice to come back to reality.

[@Bakarost]

News is the devil in a box

[@minculaurian9720]

If I told you the earth was flat, but that did not have an immediate impact on your life, would you not knowing this fact, because you choose to ignore the medium(aka news) in witch it was expressed, put you in a higher or lower preference ordering of where you whish to find yourself? It's a untrue thing that was expressed. It is, however, SOMETHING, that was expressed. You live in this world in which THAT was expressed. Wouldn't you rather know that IT was expressed and make it an input if ur model of the world as it is, or would you rather be surprised when it eventually comes back to whack you over the head?

[@youssefsammouh501]

You need to get off the internet​@@minculaurian9720

[@DM100]

I only dip into the news for like 20 mins every so often. Such a relief!

[@hobbsmatt]

This was fantastic, the best conversation I’ve heard with Jordan. I’ve watched many conversations with him, and always left them with the impression that he’s brilliant, but… not always grounded, not always “in communion” with his interlocutor. Almost like talking past them. But this conversation felt very real and targeted and connected. Jonathan, you have that same effect on so many people. When you can get a word in edgewise with JBP, the conversation lands and gets much more real and deep. I have great affection for both Jordans, but they seem at their best when talking to Jonathan.

[@elektrotehnik94]

Same ❤... Jordan has developed increasingly in his capacity to relate, and it really shines ☀️❤️

[@ToTheStumblBloc]

'Confession that is not within the context of communion is very dangerous.' 'Struggling with the Fire is our purpose.' 'Reality is so far beyond our capacity.' 'There is a proper way of learning.' 'What is invariant under transformation?' Thank you for these insights and such a wonderful conversation. Glory to God

[@elektrotehnik94]

Thank you, for time & effort given ❤ Godspeed ❤

[@minculaurian9720]

1. Except if your introspective AND honest* 2. What "Fire"? 3 . True....getting systematically closer to it, on the other hand, is absolutely achieveble. 4. truest 5. The physical constants... I guess

[@janetoliver9561]

I first heard Jordan years and years ago and felt he was a kindred spirit. I actually prayed that God would touch him. Maybe others did too. I find his ideas amazing. His addition to the Kingdom of God is beyond any numeration.

[@Bakarost]

Kinda egotistic for you to pray God touch him. It came off as if youre higher than jonathan

[@andyramirez6016]

Jordan Hall wasn’t a Christian at the time I’d assume

[@janetoliver9561]

He was not.

[@janetoliver9561]

Are you Christian? Because Christians pray for others to be touched by God daily, not because we are better but that God is the greatest .

[@tuckerbugeater]

@@janetoliver9561 chad worshiper just like most early christians were women following their jewish leaders.

[@mement0_m0ri]

Very excited to hear about his conversion! If he can come to Christ, this gives me hope for many people in my life. ❤

[@TheMeaningCode]

Jordan, I was struck by your comment about increasing levels of secure surprise. I have been thinking a lot lately about what is missing in the idea that the free energy principle explains consciousness, perception, life, etc. It seems to me that life is not about minimizing, surprise, but in delighting in secure surprise. In fact, that is the only route open to higher and higher levels of adaptation to the glory of reality.

[@elektrotehnik94]

Love your work, thank you deeply. It's beyond exceptional. 🏆❤️ You helped me demolish my biases/ the false parts of my modernistic bro-sciency certainty. Due in part to your work, I am now significantly less deluded. ^^ 😁❤️🏆 Secure surprise is an amazing place to be - and so hard for many of us, who feel insecure (justifiably, or not). 😶❤️ Much Love & Godspeed ❤

[@honeymaru68]

Could you give an example of a "secure surprise", please?

[@TheMeaningCode]

@@honeymaru68 when I think of secure, a surprise, I am thinking more of our response to surprise. Surprise can come in both positive and negative forms. Jordan Peterson speaks much of anomaly in chapter 4 of his book Maps of Meaning, the most important chapter, I think. I normally can throw you for a loop, or I can open your eyes to look around and see where the treasures of wisdom are hidden in the darkness. Facing the dragon calls up our courage, and it also forces us to build muscle. Thinking of the anomaly as a gift is really helpful to me. All of this, of course, is rather theoretical, and we don’t find out the truth of it until we’re in the moment. Sometimes in the moment, I fail to pay attention, and then I sink beneath the waters, but sometimes my eyes are open, and I can see the glory in the chaos.

[@LKRaider]

God guides our lives.

[@TheMeaningCode]

@@honeymaru68 I posted a long reply, but somehow it isn’t showing up here. I will try again later.

[@francestaylor9156]

100%. I'm so tired of people of all sides of ideology/politics/religion/whatever trying to remove suffering as if it's this horrible thing. It is an integral part of reality. Without suffering, there is no growth. I do worry that my kids have it much easier than I did but I would not wish them to go through the negligence and abuse I did as a child. May God and Jesus guide me to what I can do better without coddling them too much.

[@elektrotehnik94]

No need to provide suffering. Let your children expose themselves to the world. 👍 The world will provide all the suffering that is required; and then some. ^^ ❤ If there is too little suffering, focus on expanding your kid's "ambition"/ what they consider possible for themselves/ their lives. Let your kids learn how to properly lead/ manage their "exposure to the World" & consequently, their suffering. 🏆❤ My parents provided too much suffering, it seemed to me. ^° Took me till 30 years old, to (mostly) clean the baggage out. 🙃 There seemingly is such a thing as too much suffering. 😶 ^^ Much Love & Godspeed ❤

[@somevids4187]

I think there is a difference between suffering as in a crippling disease, or psychological or physical torment vs. simply suffering the events of daily life and learning to go through them. Yes, disease can help to bring one closer to God but I can’t be happy one is suffering, especially if they don’t seem to reap the spiritual benefits, although it is all in the hands of Christ, so we must trust it is in one way useful for someone. Maybe even that trauma, horrible as it is, will help the one suffering and then he will help others in the future.

[@ChristIsKingPhilosophy]

Glad to hear him like this. At first I was the same, perhaps I didn't understand him. Now he's making a lot of sense to me, so glory to God for all things.

[@JediTony81]

Just want to take a moment to appreciate that the term "Bull Sh*t" is such a good term that even Jordan Hall with his vast vocabulary chooses to use it for precise and effective communication. Love the insight that cultivating embodied skills is a great way to improve our BS detectors.

[@TT-tx5ng]

I needed to hear your message, Jordan. I feel like it was directed to me because of the situation I'm in. This complex reality called life has increased my faith and trust in our God. I had to be reminded that my agency is very small, but my God is with me through it all. 1:11:50

[@rinwesley3092]

I just love your talks with Jordan Hall. It is truly a collaboration I never saw coming having tuned into Jordan when he first appeared on YT.

[@random_person6041]

Ouuuuu so many gems

[@MrHarD2WiN]

Amazing video

[@outoforbit00]

Indeed there is a proper way of learning, take advice from people who went before you, take a leap of faith and jump in at the deep end.

[@minculaurian9720]

Treu. When wondering weather I should go to the countryside and become a farmer or start a kitchen for the homeless outreach centre, I really should remember that "you can't wrench water from a dry stone"...

[@ciarancarroll5888]

I used to listen to Jordan Hall a few years ago, and up until this call I had thought that he had gone so far up his own ass hole that he had lost his way.I am glad for him and his audience that he navigated his way out.

[@minculaurian9720]

Until this call I thought he actually knew something

[@daNihilism]

It feels like the civium project has become flesh! Praise be to God!

[@carrie_s1619]

Blessings to the faithful remnant

[@julijanacvejic517]

Ha, ha he actually said it! I was thinking to myself today and other days before... Ok it IS GOOD to watch You tube videos of Jonathan for example, and others like him, but can it become WRONG in some situation? My answer to myself was : Julijana if you sit down to wach You tube video before you colect strenth to say your evening prayer, than it does not matter anymore what you watch, you did not put first things first. So say your prayer, and if afther that I am still awake and motivated enough to come here, than it should be so😊😅❤

[@LKRaider]

Indeed, that’s a good alignment of priorities. Also, you have a very beautiful name! Glory to God!🙏🏻☦️

[@rebeccabaumgartner7756]

There is wisdom and spiritual nutrition in this discussion...thank you Jonathan and Jordan.

[@MoeGar-e6e]

Awesome...I love the Hall....😂🎉

[@josephtravers777]

I was in ICU on ventilator on 25th anniversary of my brother's death. I was struck blind in one eye on 18th anniversary of my other brother's death. I offer it up as indulgence for their eternal souls because I love them. God bless you 🙏 I love your work.

[@danielmarkwilson9168]

This may have been the best conversation I've heard in... I don't remember when.

[@justbrian...]

Man this convo had a good number of gems packed in here. Thank you 🙏

[@PrayersfromtheRedwoodForest]

This was such an incredible conversation one of the best the internet has to offer at this moment I would bet good money

[@johnrankin6040]

This honestly maybe the best symbolic world episode.

[@TeamDiezinelli]

What a treasure of wisdom 😅

[@adamvano3459]

Wow! this was such a beautiful conversation to listen to! Also for the technical and clear ways in how Jordan beautifully formulated what Faith means. But it was even more beautiful to see Jonathan being really synchronized with what Jordan was saying and how it was leading him to really reflect deeply about also himself. And on the flip side how this serene and curious way of Jonathans attention brought the best out of Jordan and how the relationship reciprocally enriched both of them in a loop. Thank God for both of you and for sharing it with us!

[@dennisthompson8424]

Fantastic convo. It's so energizing to hear the level of communication that can be achieved. I've noticed, however, that to the uninitiated, conversations like this can sound like gibberish. When you start trying to inhabit the symbolic space, I think you start conceptualizing in a much more abstract way. Abstract in the way language is an abstraction of reality. It really is like learning a new language. The funny part is that these abstractions, or language, seem to be more fundamental to lived experience than the propositional. A little ironic. This is why I believe it's frustrating when you hear Jonathan talking to someone like Brett Weinstein(who I admire.) It feels like Jonathan understands Brett-ese mostly but Brett doesn't understand Jonathan-ese at all. The convo with Bogosian was the worst. Jordan Hall is a great conversation partner. Probably the best I've seen. Because both here can speak and understand these deep levels of abstractions, they bring out the best in each other. I've noticed my own thinking has changed dramatically having listened and talked to people like these for a few years now. I find it increasingly difficult to transmit these types of concepts to others who I'd call "uninitiated." Not that people aren't capable, there's just so much ground work to be laid in order to find a common space. Can be exhausting sometimes. It's a bit like the analogy they use here of trying to communicate mastery. Not that I'm a master, far from it. It's just, where do you start?

[@JordanGreenhall]

Very insightful. I find that it requires relationship first. And then Beauty- if that makes sense.

[@minculaurian9720]

Introspect honestly. Then use theory of mind to induce how someone else would phrase what you learned through introspection. Then go out and just try it out. It's inconceivable that you fail everytime.

[@brando3342]

I really enjoyed this discussion. One criticism I think I would have, though, is that I think Jordan puts WAY more emphasis, and stock in the idea of experiential knowledge than I think is warranted. He goes so far as to say we know something is wrong, because we’ve “lived life”, as if any knowledge of morality at all needs to be garnered and justified through experience. I don’t think that’s the case at all. I can know morality based on the creature I am, the nature I possess. I can know murder is wrong, and I don’t have to actually participate in it to know that. I can know based on introspection, and of course, with the revelation of God. I think there is more to propositional knowledge than Jordan gives credit to. I don’t know his background, but it’s clear why the Eastern Orthodox Church drew him in the most. I also think this makes God look like some sort of slave owner with Adam and Eve in the garden. If Adam and Eve “didn’t know anything” when God told them not to eat the fruit of the tree, than how could he hold them responsible for eating the fruit when they did? Obviously God believed they had sufficient knowledge prior to the experience to remain perfectly good, and loving, even though his command was that they not have to have that experience. If they did not have sufficient knowledge with the propositional knowledge alone, than God would be wrong to hold them to account for going against his will. It’s a delicate balance between propositional, and experiential knowledge that keeps human’s close to God. Not one or the other.

[@adamvano3459]

Very good point you raise i think. It nicely demonstrates Jordans point which was wonderful to feel how he really meant it : that the complexity of reality is far beyond any comprehension on our side to handle. So of course each of us has an inevitable tendency to overemphasize one thing. But this is a particularly interesting question as i think it raises an opposite view. On the outside Christ the Perfect Man Himself lives a life that we can say is precisely the opposite of "you get wisdom by living life/experience". He is the One who only ever does the Will of our heavenly Father, which we i presume we would call pure propositional knowledge. And He never once goes to test it. He simply obeys and trusts completely though not blindly but with courage to face what is to come and being aware of how will things end up. But in relation to this point it is interesting to consider it as a kind of opposite view as God the Son never learns by engaging with reality and failing. He knows eternally in a mysterious way what is Good and evil by listening to the Father even through trying to avoid the suffering if it isnt necessary in Getsemani and never fails precisely because of the obedience. Which seems like an opposite dynamic to that of "go and live through it". I am not trying to disprove Jordans thoughts on engaging with life, i more than completely agree that that is what we now need to be doing the most. But it seems interesting to me in comparison to this that God Himself - the One who in Jordans beautiful language " is the Elder from before all ages Who has suffered enormously to the absolute extreme and has metabolized it to the capacity for the most intimate relationship to reality possible" - doesnt once learn by failing but is perfect by listening to the Father - "the elder" who proposes episteme which he trusts absolutely from all eternity and thus embodies the fullness of Pistis. And also from another view we could argue that in its extreme logical end, if it were the way to learn and acquire pistis through direct often painful contact with reality then why did we need Christ to come and tell and show us everything? Why couldnt we and still cannot figure out what is good and evil on our own just by engaging with life? Now that iam thinking about it it really makes perfect sense and begs the inevitable eternal reality of the infinite Father who is the Eternal Elder who knows everything because He had lived through everything. And that we just need Him , that He is inevitable for reality to exist- like there just has to be the absolute elder. I hope iam making sense. At the begging i didnt know if this was going to lead anywhere but indeed it did. It affirmed my view that we have stories so that we dont have to die directly and fully, but can kind of "try on dying" by living through the experience of a character in a story. That word "try ON" isnt coincidental, stories are really garments of skin- a dead layer that we then shed and can still live, as someone in the symbolic world community once pointed out brilliantly. And one of the essential roles Christ does for us is that He has literally lived through every conceivable story ever and through the most extreme, for us not to have to learn the hard way by living through it as well. In that sense the knowledge of morality of good and evil is justified and shown only to those who have "lived through life" precisely because of the experience of how it is to be in that state. And He does it voluntarily in a way that He doesnt fail. Which is spectacular and absolutely crazy as He takes on the consequences of all our wrongdoings ever but He does it voluntarily as the One who has never missed the mark and so He becomes the ultimate winner over everything. He kind of experiences all of the possible failures that man can do but without failing and doing them Himself. Which is.... mind shattering.... and yet He does it in such a simple way! Like He literally let Himself be mutilated and die for us to wake us up to seeing what we are actually doing when we behave to each other as we usually do in the world - selfishly. He died so that all of us forever would have a chance of seeing it and that we die to ourselves and start living by the way of caring for each other. And maybe even more importantly than showing us the true consequences of our actions, He presents us with a walked through path -a story -a propositional knowledge- that shows us how suffering has its rightful place in creation and itsnt itself a problem. As Jordan wisely said that the problem isnt suffering but when we suffer without purpose or unwillingly. And by Christs example we can put our Pistis into the promise that there is not only meaning but an absolute meaning to be found in suffering, when done voluntarily for your brethren and that even death serves ultimate glory and meaning and isnt an obstacle and never was only for a man self-obsessed refusing relations. Yes we need to engage fully with embodied reality and invite suffering, but we could have never learned that just on our own. We need someone to show us by telling us a story. Someone to first invite us to that. A Savior from outside of us. So we can then relate to the world and be in communion with each other and experience what the Divine life is. I suppose we could sum it that of course faith always comes first then you get to know things. But we also necessarily need something - some kind of knowledge to put the trust into. We cant put it into nothing. We need a promise, a proposal from someone to trust in. So it seems to me to be an eternal loop of neither pistis or episteme being prior to the other. Which is exactly what you concluded with as well:) Or in other words - God is the eternal relationship of the Glorious Holy Trinity. Hope this is little exploration is useful also to you. Thank you for the question!

[@SempreGumby]

taking notes.... Probably the most important video since I found since Jordan Peterson's Biblical Series. Thank you Jonathon and Jordan.

[@corykobel6117]

Absolutely amazing. This one is worth listening to twice. Sometimes listening to the Symbolic World leaves me feeling “puffed up” with knowledge I don’t know what to do with (delightful knowledge to be sure), but Jordan here really leads us to the ground level. Pistis indeed. Been thinking about teaching a “food pyramid” of attention to my students, but Jordan’s concentric circles is excellent. One is a side view, one is a top down…both geometries of the Mountain. Thank you both for this honest discussion.

[@minculaurian9720]

"puffed up with knowledge" meaning you now "know" something you did not know before. What is it?

[@gregsmy]

That conversation had SO much chiming with Loving to Know by Esther Lightcap Meek and her idea of Covenant Epistemology.

[@ibelieve3111]

Thanks

[@alteredcatscyprus]

Quite an opening! Shot! Chaser!

[@piotr2190]

That's my problem. What isn't being taken into account, for me, is when Jordan talks about carpentry and making things yourself-this is why I think AI is dooming us. As a motion designer and illustrator, I see how AI can create something with just one click, and people use it while calling themselves artists. But there’s no understanding of the process or mastery. The world is slowly accepting AI art, and they talk about it like it's just a tool. It's not a tool when you simply generate things without learning, without doing the hard work, or without years of experience.

[@billbadson7598]

Industrial Revolution began nearly 300 years ago. We've been going down that road for a looooong time

[@ArcherWarhound]

Yes, AI art isn't art it's an abomination, a simulacrum of art that hurts us all. It grieves my soul.

[@edwardsteele7123]

I think that when Christ say I am the truth the way and the life is true I think Christianity is the fundamental reality. It's beautiful and so wonderfully deep.

[@minculaurian9720]

Replace "think" with "believe". Fixed:)

[@notloki3377]

That humility in relationship to axial values is crucial. I feel that our culture really suffers from the distinction between "Small I" and "big I" being contained under the same notion of wormy material self

[@joeforeman3027]

Faith, the trust a newborn has that what is holding has what it takes to nourish and nurture making rooting worth while “Taking a child he set him in their midst. …” “Out of the mouths of babies you perfect praise.”

[@D201-s2u]

Went to vespers. At some point during the singing of a song were they said hallelujah repeatedly I literally felt like I was somewhere else. Could just be me but I really think I had a mystical-experience. Anyone else have these experiences at Church?

[@kaellito]

Greetings from Brazil 🇧🇷

[@michaelpolito1877]

Excellent discussion. Thank you.

[@chase2102]

This dude seems wicked smaht

[@WhiteStoneName]

54:12 Eucharistic knowing vs Mammonistic knowing

[@agapicorientation]

I'm a little bit more pleased with how Jordan is articulating himself. He is stepping away from the imposition. But I still think that the angle is biased towards result based thinking. There should be more focus on how telos informs your world and how to relate to them. You don't fix your problems by relating to them, you fix them by finding the right path to walk instead and binding yourself to it. Pick up the plow and don't look back. The world will lay itself out for you properly. Whenever you identify to resolve problems you create the problem of digging a hole for yourself and you will have to get out of it again. That is the part that's missing. Everything will be added on to you. Focus on Jesus and walk on water. If you game the problem of problems you're still stuck. That is still the aftertaste of what I'm left with in this conversation.

[@brando3342]

Around 38 minutes y’all were talking about the Big Bang, and how people don’t realize when they are using temporal language, even in the circumstance of wanting to explain the origin of temporality. That is why in theological philosophy, we use the word “sans”, which you know Johnathan, is French for “without”. By using this term, we can speak of God existing “without” or sans time, and in this manner we avoid illogical language like “God existed before time.” I love philosophy haha

[@tyloniussquib4000]

I think using temporal language is sufficient enough to get you to the beginning of temporality however it immediately stops being valuable once you get to the point "before" its origin.

[@brando3342]

@@tyloniussquib4000 Yes. That’s exactly the point being made in my post. The first moment in time is temporality’s origin, but it makes no sense to speak in temporal terms sans time.

[@chrisc7265]

when I learned the big bang theory of the beginning of everything was arrived at by running the "time" variable backwards on physics equations I had to facepalm I mean, fine, why not, but then to treat this as authoritative rather than a thought experiment that is almost certainly disconnected from reality...

[@brando3342]

@@chrisc7265 What? First of all, that’s only one of the points that gets made. Second of all, how is a rational argument “disconnected from reality”? It’s literally the opposite 🤨 Unless your punctuation obfuscated the point you were trying make.

[@chrisc7265]

@@brando3342 I said "almost certainly", leaving open the option that we nailed it but that seems extremely unlikely given the number of assumptions involved, not the least of which the point you yourself rose that we don't know what time is/isn't (so assuming it acts as a simple T variable that can be levered back to zero is assuming a lot)

[@chrisc7265]

Jordan Hall is like the cool version of Eric Weinstein not sure I follow all of his metaphors, but I'll have to check out more of his stuff

[@Wallaceshead]

Me, listening on the job, hearing 1:04:40 while plumbing a church addition: :)

[@ChaseyBearMagnanimity]

@53:00 No, but if the stove is "hot" I learn through science and "faith" that I can wear a glove, a mask, a cloak, a shield, a chemical and I can still do what I want, that's what the master key to this lock is trying to help Hall come to understand. It isnt quite that adolescent. We have all developed very sophisticated justifications in convincing ourselves of superhuman powers that the "stove" is relatively hot. Thats not adolescence, thats experience.

[@ddhello]

How closely Pageau payed to Jordan made this conversation amazing to watch, thanks guys

[@jasonsomers8224]

When you say you need experience suffering to have wisdom, for example, touching a hot stove instead of following rules, what does that imply practically? Should we subject ourselves to mistakes? To doing evil? Just the consequences of mistakes?

[@darrelli901]

Sometimes these conversations are so over my head and I struggle to relate it to my every day life. Am I off here? What is the point sometimes?

[@BinditDD]

“Plato had it backwards” says the guy relating to him from the opposite side of a paradox.

[@they365]

Very much looking forward to this conversation. Some of Jordan's sensemaking in your conversation with him and Vervaeke was truly impressive. I don't think you've spoken to him since he's come to Christ? God bless you both.

[@DoubtfireClubWGPowers]

Wow! I couldn't click this video fast enough! And I could not have smashed that like button any harder 👍 500 thumbs up

[@Rawdiswar]

Whats the opening music?

[@alecio000]

During the discussion of atheists being stuck in a third-person perspective, I was having the first-person experience of feeling cold so I checked the thermostat on my phone and when my attention turned back to the video Jordan said “the incarnation of the second person” and with no context I thought he meant “second person of the Godhead” (presumably the Son/Logos) but quickly worked out that he meant “second person” grammatically and then I thought “Oh, isn’t it funny how there’s three persons of perspective, grammatically, and there’s also three persons of God” and this seems like such an interesting coincidence that I feel like I must have heard it somewhere else. I have to assume Jordan was aware because his description of “the incarnation of the second person” was a kind of description of Logos (Mathew 18:20). ChatGPT tells me this has been the subject of much contemplation but that it’s just “an interesting coincidence that invites reflection on the parallels between language, cognition and spirituality.” Oh, is that all?

[@tommygun5035]

I don't know how at 20:00ish the direct answer isn't Christ. I've only watched up until this point so far but felt it necessary to say that there's a lot of philosophy talk but no Christ. This idea of developing the stack and climbing some ladder of universal knowing or principals but then realising that the ultimate principals are found in Christianity and though it's some personal search for a personal benefit. Or am I missing something here. I'll continue watching and then update.

[@TheSymbolicUniverse]

Like if you like symbolism 👇

[@simoontube]

The intro clips are really annoying

[@dawnmuir5052]

Jordan talks about wisdom and the recognition of truth being derived from direct experience of reality, particularly in suffering. But I wonder if the acquisition of wisdom from your experience of reality is fundamentally determined by pre-existing frameworks with which you approach life. I guess I am pushing back on the idea that experience comes first (eg. insight), then the “notions”, the rational frameworks etc. He mentions ‘noticing’ a lot, but don’t we notice different things depending on what we already think is relevant and important? Isn’t our attention something we cultivate, either intentionally or by default, determined by the many factors that influence and direct our judgement and attention? I’m thinking for example of the elders Jordan describes as being elders because of insights from suffering. Clearly we all suffer, but they have navigated suffering in a particular way that brings about a correct or at least useful insight, attitude, or perception of reality that others appreciate and are lacking. This seems to be a chicken and egg dilemma between ontology and epistemology. Also therefore connected to Jonathan’s question about delusion, hopefully in a more precise way.. Perhaps the answer lies in a deeper, more precise exploration of insight as knowing (and how you confirm veracity) versus comprehension as knowing (heavier on the rationality and induction). I hope he can narrow the focus on what the “direct experience” is (ie. how it translates to insight) that produces “wisdom” in some and not others. Would love to hear more about this! Thanks for a very enriching conversation!

[@knightrider585]

+56:00 If communion with a religious community helps us see bullshit, how did my ancestors end up leaving Christianity so I had to find my own way back? Not criticising (either way) just wondering what went wrong.

[@JordanGreenhall]

Plausibly many, many things. Imagine a soap bubble floating in the air. A certain degree of wind causes it to undulate - but not pop. But past a point of criticality, it pops. And a kid poking it can also cause it to pop. The context of the last 500 years has been extraordinary. Lots of things popped. And then, of course, there is the question of God's plan for you...

[@minculaurian9720]

Soo, it's plausible, that at any, of the many, inflection points in history concerning christianity, something could have gone another way, right? What if Christ was never born? What if Judas hadn't betrayed him? What if Judaism recognized him as the messiah?....... Would any of these events, and/or others, instill a change in how you, today, would view the world?

[@AugustasKunc]

Which Christianity did he comvert to? Is this in America?

[@kristenswensen6451]

Jordon Hall - By Feelings, do you mean derived from sensory experience? I am reininterpreting your words in my head...

[@JordanGreenhall]

No. That which lies below sensory experience. From the most subtle up to the basic elements of experience (in general). So a thought "sits on top of" a feeling (or a complex of feelings).

[@kristenswensen6451]

@JordanGreenhall thanks for clarifying!

[@dylansaus]

what is the symbolism of colour?

[@astudent5638]

Did jordan convert to orthodoxy? I couldn't tell from listening where he's at.

[@CastanOpiu]

The truth is the human understanding unit used to decompose and masure chaos to create order .

[@Rabbinicphilosophyforthewin]

Verticality in AI is very close, maybe already here. All you need is an injection of true randomness into the algorithmic map/switching net. Computational randomness wouldn’t be truly random, so feed some quantum indeterminacy in. These impulses would mimic freedom, with the ominous possibility of extradimensional control. That’s where I see AI becoming truly dangerous.

[@lawfulandlegal]

22:39 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. are jokes and lies worth what you think to be right? must pay good...

[@EtherealMaryJane]

All Things Have An END. 👍

[@honeymaru68]

There are no endings, only new beginnings

[@freedomslunch]

This is a conversation that cannot be understood without having a fairly deep understanding of western philosophy language games. Just the use of the word phenomenological requires a deep understanding of the philosophical applications of the word. It's pregnant with applicable meaning, but only for the initiated.

[@billbrown1353]

“TRUST FALLS” Are a highly INAPPROPRIATE way of visualizing TRUST, especially in the spiritual sense. People think of themselves stepping off a ledge or a mountain into the arms of an unseen safety. THIS IS NOT WHAT THE BIBLE DESCRIBES OR DESIRES. “Trust Climb” is more appropriate. If there is a “mountain” it’s the mountain of life and the climb holds the sum total of achievement and failure. TRUST is when you allow yourself to listen and follow the guide who has helped so many people before you. He knows what will come on the mountain path, and he knows your capabilities and incapabilities. But he promises that he will get you where you’re supposed to go. In this life, the Bible promises are the best deal you’re going to get. Especially when you surround yourself with a community of people who understand that.

[@kipling1957]

What’s that word - pesties?

[@pamperdut1]

it's pistis - it means "faith", "trust" in greek

[@TheHouseOfBards]

Rationality which helps quantify edges at interpretation. You need morals and perception of utility to weight on data. In the advent of A.I utility is absent of moral subjectivity as it is perpetuated vertically in just one hierarchical level; the company making the technocracy. So to refrain to the blade runner video Jonathan made 6 years ago; the world is saturated by the dimension of rationality but dialectically rationality is opposed by meaning. But data, utility, marketing and all these things that havent been integrated consciously end up being integrated unconciously. We are sterile of concious meaning (even the normie christians are sterile) but abundant of data - the end of strategy must be religious, and it seems institutions like the vatican are preparing the way for the collapse with an easy-going and watered down version of all the religions together - world leaders know its going to happen and they are letting the shadow of the system spawn its own monstrosities in a calculated way. Their crass error is thinking they can ride a controled instance of the 'leviathan' (or as system philosophers call this period: the 'cthulhian') - as not even Satan himself likes dealing with the lovecraftian: the primigean 'ereebos'. Its incredibly powerful in its expansiveness but completely unpredicatble. The solution: to freeze the waters so the monster of unconscious beliefs is trapped under ice - like the divine comedy in the inner circle of hell; ice so cold that it burns. This goes along well enough with the notion of revelations where the serpent is locked for a thousand years and the so-called sea of crystal. Now the question is: how do you make ice? Or may i say crystal -meth-? Well christ is also ethimoligcally related with crystal. You weaponize christ as a the opposite of rationality in a weighting factor for attraction, but not against people but against the little bubbles of the multiverse where the lovecraftian swims: culture and sub-culture all the way to the individual unconcious religious sentiment. You do that until it starves. This i think is the divine counter-strategy for Gods renewal and the symbolic world has been the first step towards this path by symbolically analyzing media. But its not enough as even one single drop of the dark waters can spawn the beast again. Cheers jonathan.

[@AugustasKunc]

+

[@KeithKlundt]

Amen to the vanity of the lost hour doomscrolling Twitter

[@Rabbinicphilosophyforthewin]

Faith, for Derrida, means “maximally degenerate delusion”? I’d certainly like to see a quote from Derrida that would indicate this, and I’d suspect that if he said something like this he meant it differently from how you mean it. Read the epilogue to The Monolingualism of the Other, for example-it strikes me as very much about faith. It’s strongly reminiscent of Jordan Peterson’s struggling description of faith, for example.

[@catostrophiccannon3447]

yeah bruh! what a word salad!!! 😂😅😊

[@williamgass9242]

Ai cant make art

[@freedomslunch]

0:40 Your use of the word knowledge doesn't align with scripture. JP of all people should know this since his brother wrote a book about it. The word shoukd have been understanding. Knowledge is the spirit, the world where the earth is transformed by heaven to be the world where Christians righteously steward the land.

[@RayG817]

I'm sorry. Everytime I hear Jonathan Pageau speak I can't help thinking he is the poster boy of pseudo-intellectuals. He hides behind fancy words, he speaks in vague phrases, and he rarely bothers to back up his opinions with facts. I almost laughed at their discussion of AI, as it became obvious that neither knew anything about it. They have deep feelings and poetic metaphors but empty heads.

[@hankkuya4354]

Christ is a medical term for drugs and application. 🤔 so what drugs are you on?

[@outoforbit00]

Jonathan, if you want to get knocked around a bit in confession, go to a Polish priest, or a Nigerian priest hot out of seminary.😧

[@1214gooner]

Way to nail him down Johnny @49:25 😂

[@jammysmears4077]

Haha. What a lot of absolute nonsense.

[@Atjayvang21]

Came out the closet, inside joke no one will ever understand.

[@tgrogan6049]

Why doesn't Jordan go on with a knowledgeable atheist instead of being in an adoring echo chamber.

[@chase2102]

Such as yourself? You seem really agitated on someone’s else’s channel where he gets to choose who he talks to…you good?

[@issaavedra]

Most atheist are boring simpletons when talking about meaning.

[@jasbrg]

I believe he may have *been* such a person for some years

[@ordinaryorthodox9980]

There are no knowledgeable atheist Cosmologists.

[@notloki3377]

Do you think this channel is an echo chamber? you don't have any f****** ears

[@tgrogan6049]

These people don't know what they are talking about in cosmology. Why don't they talk to an actual cosmologist. Cosmology has advanced a long way since Plato.

[@larryjake7783]

You seem unnecessarily agitated. Everyone isn't going to think like you. And you need to be open that you're wrong, and then contend against their arguments.

[@francestaylor9156]

Yes and most of the things studied in cosmology are using computer models without any actual proof. We still don’t know why the galaxies spin faster than they should and no one has found this “dark matter” they keep harping on about. It’s been 20+ years. Physics and astrophysics has been stuck since I majored in it 20 years ago.

[@tgrogan6049]

@@francestaylor9156 All you have to do is ask ChatGPT to find out evidence for dark matter. What is the problem?

[@MoeGar-e6e]

Sometimes,when the Fires break out, the best thing you can do is just take out the marshmallows and chocolate 🫕 and watch as God deals with them.

[@minculaurian9720]

I hope this is sarcastic, because it's a way better comment than anything I can come up with on the spot.