The Forgotten Gaming Genre - Fighting Games

A purely entertainment driven / academic piece on the inability of fighting games to tap into the normie vein. Please forward all complaints to your local sub-reddit.
memes: / massivezug
ref;
AI and Games ~ Training the Shadow AI of Killer Instinct (2013) | AI and Games: • Training the Shadow AI...
#FGC #CSGO #LoL
Try and have a good time (-:

[@mutbka_tutbka4215]

My friend never played tekken... Or any other fighting game... But i asked him to do a little experiment for me, he bought tekken and Negan and i told him about the cheesiest 2 strings in the game: 122 214, if you don't block the low it's uniterruptable, and as you know, people until green ranks just don't block lows. He got hooked up and waned to learn more. The one thing tekken community is doing wrong is trying to teach new players proper tekken, explaining mechanics, strategies, frames ect. But new players don't want to learn tekken, they want to win in tekken. Give them some easy flowchart and only after it stops working ask them if they want to improve.

[@63skarduken]

Yeah... I think tekken players telling brand new players that the first thing they need to do is to grind out KBD is beyond dumb. Just show them some cool looking moves

[@Ululo]

The downside to this is the 4000 fighter rank king in ranked

[@Ululo]

4000 win*

[@killerkrok55]

@@Ululo lol. I think that would also show as evidence that the op's idea is sound and probably one of the best for noobs real noobs and people who just mash or normies. That 4000 win fighter rank king, is definately taking advantage of the cheesiest tactical flow chart. The down sides i think are the ones who never stop trying to cheese the win even qhen it clearly doesnt work and instead stay the same.

[@suicidal_donuts6191]

A year later this comment came true and it seems like that’s exactly what they’re doing with Tekken 8

[@gaberamirez7658]

As for the arcade/AI problem, one of my favorite solutions is from Footsies. The game doesn't have characters, instead, it names a character after habits they'll exhibit (spammer, blocker, etc.). New players aren't asked to wail on the AI until it dies, or "trick" it into whiffing dps or bad jumps by faking inputs (people new to fighting games, try doing a fireball motion against any AI in SFV and watch the AI jump without any projectiles on screen). They're asked to learn how to beat specific techniques and tactics organically, and they don't have to worry about outside factors. By the time you reach the end, you have several playstyles you're familiar with and can focus on adaptation. Very cool idea overall!

[@WickedKnightAlbel]

I'd like to see a fighter with a raid battle mode You set up a "dojo" containing ghost data bots of all the characters you main, recorded across all the matches you've ever played, and other players have to fight through the entire gauntlet to steal money and such. This would encourage people to learn more of the roster, and thus, more of the match-ups

[@jakebeansboy3755]

Maybe I'm just weird, but I think losing can still be enjoyable in the right game. Also, the fgc as a whole (especially the gg community) has been super welcoming in my experience.

[@meethepie]

I do agree as well, but I also think you have to be at a decent skill level in order for that to start to happen. It's almost never gonna feel fun to lose while having no clue what's going on, and it takes a decent amount of experience and knowledge to get to that point in fighting games. Compound that with the fact that fighting games punish you for losing by taking away control of your character, and it can be very frustrating for new players.

[@BenAstridge]

Tbh he does say losing can be fun but feeling hopeless never is, i think that is hard to deny

[@Wyrmixx]

I actually like fighting games because it's all you. While in other games losing can be because of your team's performance or other in-game aspects, in fighting games its all on you. Your success comes from and only your knowledge and abilities.

[@downsjmmyjones101]

You can make a 1v1 game and turn down the pressure and competition. Basically just add some party games. Make a mode where you have to use anti-airs to knock an explosive over to another player's zone like a version of hot potato. You could do volleyball even. An example is Rivals of AEther adding tetherball to their game. Some lighthearted fun goes a long way to getting more casual players to stick with 1v1 games.

[@danielbakergill]

There’s almost 100 clips in here. Do these vignettes form fully in your mind? As you’re developing a concept for this video, do these moments just appear in your head? Absolutely amazing work as usual

[@jebuscrust9875]

I find it curious that many games seem to be simplifying mechanics and making it easier to fight for new players but are removing the additional content which could have actually hooked in the new players in the first place. I think fighting game devs want to focus the game on the competitive aspect while making said aspect more accessible but idk if that's a very good strategy

[@megasoniczxx]

I've always held the belief that better single player content could really help in bringing people into fighting games. Part of the reason why I got so into smash when I was a kid was how good some of the single player stuff like break the targets, board the platforms, adventure and classic mode were. The first two especially were not only fun, but were also guiding you towards how to use the characters that you used for them without you necessarily having to know it. It's the reason why you know the proper angle on Mario's fireballs when thrown in the air, how links boomerangs will go through anything, including walls on the way back and it's how they taught you that jigglypuff had an absolutely busted aerial recovery. And all of that is contextualized by these pretty novel but still fun single player modes that you get a lot of replay value from when you don't have friends around, it's really cool and I wish we had more equivalents of this in traditional fighting games.

[@poultriarchy]

Tekken 8 needs a warioware mode where you are randomly subject to specific situations and have to complete the task immediately and it gets harder and harder and faster and faster and it’s going from shit like ducking the third hit of a string at the easy level to ducking Eddy df1,1 and launching it, KBDing 50 meters in a couple seconds, sidestep guarding a string, block punishing a move perfectly, and all those satisfying noises from the T7 punishment trainer return and the entire time Heihachi is laughing his ass off and the laugh gets more and more fucked up the longer you stay alive

[@cmar601]

On top of the really good take on these subjects, the little things like Snowboard kids shop menu music makes me love these vids. Awesome as usual man.

[@XmortoxX1990]

I also thought of the idea of a rhythm game for learning combos, asl some mini-games to make people use all the normals in the game lo learn their attributes and also to get use to the layout of the controller they're using. I am also one of the defenders that single player content should also be a priority for fighting game devs, I get it would more resources, but if it keeps players engaged and willing to play, I say why not try?

[@stylesheetra9411]

The problems of minigame is: what are you trying to do? Getting rhythm games player to buy your game? The minigame should be good and they wont play the main game anyway Getting new people play your game? Why would they buy a fighting game to play a rhythm game? I like minigames, but they should be an optional not a core part of the game

[@XmortoxX1990]

@@stylesheetra9411 I honestly have thought deeply into this, it was something I came up recei, but left to the side.

[@JaguarFiend]

Outstandingly thoughtful content from Massive Zug, as always.

[@alies-]

The part with running little Kazya made my day. Your videos are awesome and criminally underrated

[@Roflo13east]

You guys remember the scenario mode in tekken 6? I've just been going back recently to collect a last few achievements I didn't get back in the day and honestly that mode is solid. Really could be built upon into a really good mode, if only the co op was local and not just restricted to online

[@MegaYoYo]

Hell yea man! I spent countless hours on that game mode. Sad we never got anything like that in T7.

[@Zackinator2017]

Great vid once again Zug!!

[@MurasakiBunny]

Fighting games themselves are not difficult, it's your opponents that are.

[@BenAstridge]

I disagree, lots of newbies and casuals struggle to do z inputs, qcf or qcb inputs and don’t understand what a roman cancel is or how to do it even in training mode with no opponent whatsoever.

[@Nofixdahdress]

@@BenAstridge None of those are necessary to get started in fighting games. There's a episode of Excellent Adventures back during SF4 where Justin Wong and was beating high-ish (like Gold and Diamond rank) players with literally a single button. No special moves, no fancy cancels, system mechanics, or combos. Just spacing, pattern recognition, and a single button. The knowledge barrier is significantly higher and more important than the execution barrier, but its also less easy to blame the game for you being dumb. Just look at the DNF Duel beta, execution was easy as hell. Single button special moves. But I was still perfecting new players left and right because they didn't understand strategy. Them not being able to consistently do a DP or fireball motion had nothing to do with it. And by the time you've played long enough that you'll get the strategy component, you can definitely manage a basic qcf.

[@Nofixdahdress]

2:43 subbed. This is a man who tells it like it is.

[@RamSama]

Amazing content, Zug!

[@AdamSmith-fq3ml]

bro your ideas literally predicted Street Fighter 6’s World Tour mode lol

[@downsjmmyjones101]

This is maybe the only video I've seen that talks about what ACTUALLY keeps fighting games small and niche.

[@Shlompskii]

A massive dub for this Massive Zug

[@Wiziliz]

I think Street Fighter 6 will pull in so many new fighting game fans

[@AirventOS]

18:59 Down down inputs are more annoying than any other inputs and I have no idea why. I dropped a character for 22 inputs

[@HuascarRadio]

Great video. I totally agree with everything you said. There should be more effort put into single player content, especially ones that train players. I think if there was a mode that you unlocked moves for the movelist as you play would be a good way to build players up.

[@downsjmmyjones101]

Would be a really good idea. I remember Core-A Gaming saying that he tried teaching a new player how to play SFV by setting a dummy to only do sweeps and throws so his friend could learn to punish sweeps and tech throws. If you only have one move, you have to find your optimal range, find how to get into your optimal range, how to avoid your opponent's optimal range, etc.

[@henrythebeyonder]

Just cme here to give you a like bro :3 I REALLY THINK NEXT YEAR IS GONNA BE WILD!! FOR FIGTHING GAMES :D SO IM GLAD YOU HAVE A CHANNELL FOR THIS TOPIC, I WISH YOU THE BEST BRO YOU HAVE GOOD VIDEOS :) regards.

[@stylesheetra9411]

10:50 hs and other cards game are 1v1 yet casual friendly The secret is that none of this game require you to waste 40h in training mode, that's all

[@mamaytokhtamysh7530]

Well in DOA 5 they made it so when you push a button you can see your possible combo options on the side of your screen. I miss those in Tekken, very convenient feature.

[@SomniaCE]

Unrelated but god I love Phantasy Star Online 1

[@BenAstridge]

100% agree with all of this & have also thought it a few times before!

[@MegaYoYo]

I've seen this take numerous times but I agree with this one the most. Most people get enjoyment from winning a game off a hype moment. I don't think many have the mindset of having fun while get molly whopped for 20 mins. There are those who enjoy losing, this exposes holes in their gameplans, but newbies don't wanna treat a new game like work. Learning movements, characters, stages, and matchups is mentally fatiguing. I think MK is the best newbie friendly game because it gives so much content and emphasis on other things. Those sales numbers are through the roof! Maybe we can attract new players through extra modes? (Tekken Force, Bowling, Ball, RPG Mode from Tobal No.1 & 2)

[@angusburg3r]

Love the bomber man ost and exact same taste in gaming as me pog

[@justking2114]

What's that song that starts at 9:22?

[@DigiMatt52]

You know what would probably ne an interesting, easy, and comprehensive way to wrap a tutorial, campaign, and normie friendly method? Turn your 2D Fighter into a side scrolling beat'em+platform up with simple enemies, collectibles, power-ups, etc. that requires certain types of attacks, specials, etc. to get/defeat. Like a shield enemy you need to get into a block string and do an overhead.

[@gamrage]

Multiversus is going to be a Smash Bros style f2p fighting game.

[@Lilybun]

As a fighting game adjacent player i loved your idea of the rhythm game style links. I feel like theres a way to show frame data in a visual form somewhere out there that could be amazing for us noobs. Why does medium punch not combo here? Oh its because the startup bar for mp is longer than the hitstun bar of the last move i did. Neurons activated.

[@Crazybark]

ive wanted a fighting game with an rpg single player mode for years, since summon knight swordcarft story infact. shit would be sick

[@kawaiihaki2480]

i think for souls veterans such as myself, or people who have played just alot of different challenging games, except fighting games, that fighting games are super fun once you learn to accept the process of getting better will be losing a lot. i literally got tekken 7 in december last year while it was on sale. got super pissed i couldnt spam through the story mode (lmfao) and refunded the game. a day later after my refund, i was sitting at my PC and i couldnt stop thinking about tekken and that it was really fun even though i was losing, so no joke i purchased the game again less than 24 hours. i now have 268 hours in tekken 7 my game with the most hours on steam just barely beating dark souls 1 and 3 they both have around 240 hours. honestly i love tekken. i installed emulators and i have tekken 3-6 plus tag tournament one and two, i havent played through all their stories yet, but i did beat tekken 4s story the other day it was pretty hard not gonna lie moves are way more damaging in tekken 4 and movement feels very weird in that game compared to every other entry ive played even 3. i cant describe it. tekken 4 is awesome though the story was so many times better than tekken 7s. as for other fighting games, i purchased MK11, KOF 15, SFV, and soul calibur 6, i did have guilty gear strive, but to be honest i couldnt get into it. so i refunded that, the characters dont really grab my attention like other fighters, MK11 is very strange im the worst at MK11 out of all those games mentioned by a large margin, its very quick and the moves are just odd to me. the inputs are very different from SF or tekken. SF is pretty fun im not good at SF either but i only have 5 hours in game i just need to hit practice mode more, i dont know any moves at all in that game lmao. and soul calibur ive yet to really try out yet the onlines dead so im not in a hurry ill play the story mode at some point. KOF is okay i think when i get better at SF i might try KOF out because it interests me less than SF again kinda like GG strive the characters arent personally the coolest to me.

[@Scorpio7500]

Lol I just saw theory fighters vids on the exact same topic

[@GulliasTurtle]

There is a perfect corollary for how to onramp new players in a tough as nails 1v1 game and it's the Starcraft 1 campaign. Mission 1: basic controls. Mission 2: objectives and advanced controls. Mission 3: Defense. Mission 4: Micro . Mission 5: Putting it all together. Test people's different skills, then make them use it together. It won't make you a master but you get a basic sense of what's going on and what you should be doing. It doesn't need to be a whole fancy campaign map like Starcraft 2. Just give me more non winning objectives to teach me things. Maybe bosses where I just need to survive by high low blocking, or I need to hurt airborne or after 3 hits in a combo or something to teach me over time. I'm still mad at Tekken 7 about this. I start the game and open the campaign. It says "to do your super hit this button" so I do, which the opponent blocks, then I die. That's not a good onboarding experience, it kind of ruined Tekken for me.

[@DeliriumPig]

Whoa whoa whoa I do not come here for Dark Souls slander

[@sylvianraccoon]

actually I just beat 3rd strike before xmas eve 😅

[@orkward1226]

Just picked up Tekken 7 for the first time. Honestly having no tutorial is dumb. The game is hard enough as it is but if you're expecting someone to understand how to use akuma without even a single prompt of how to use him, no wonder people have a bad impression of what fighting games are. It isn't about making fighting games popular to the masses, its delivering on the $60 you spent on the game.

[@ChristopherWaddelow]

There is nothing about buying a game where it is required to teach you. If you bought it, that is on you, and you had all the time in this day and age to know what you were getting into.

[@a1337turtle]

I agree, T7 lacking tutorials suck, but thankfully the Tekken community's great and there's a ton of videos. kzbin.info/aero/PLVUxFFfCtDtkd3n0J8taq-MknCWaP6naW This playlist is a bit outdated, but there's a lot of goodies in here. I do find that Tekken information is a bit kind of hard to find all at one place though, compared to Guilty Gear's dustloop.

[@orkward1226]

@@a1337turtle thank you! I remember playing tekken 3 and 4 back in the day so having some help so I can learn how to play is really appreciated

[@KeithKillingly]

pls don't use akuma

[@BenAstridge]

@@ChristopherWaddelow strange take… it’s not unreasonable at all to want a tutorial, you’re acting like it is?

[@redwater1995]

Well put wish fighting games put more effort into new player experience but they have been shown that not only do they not need to they have legions of vocal fans who defend just how poor the options are. Even weirder is some older fighting games do have alot put in to help new players. But when you have tekken fans who legit defend tekken 7s lack of a tutorial it really colors your view of the entire community lol.

[@JayShead]

Co-op 2v2 online. I don't care if it's not a tag game, just put it in.

[@redwater1995]

Could be fun and a neat idea. Maybe have it like a tag in tag out system like some IRL wrestling matches? If you lose a round the losing player can choose to stay in for the next round or tag to his friend whos been watching. Could take alot of the stress off potentially.

[@CrowFGC]

im early

[@spook6473]

Hi early I'm dad

[@ricardofunes9407]

Kazuya appears: -MASKU

[@Nicomartz52]

And 3, are free games.

[@Brass_Heathen]

Zug: demon souls and the objectively worse iterations of the series... Me: First off, fight me.

[@ChristopherWaddelow]

"Demon's Souls and its objectively worse sequels..." Ah, a man of culture I see.

[@benjaminbeltran7004]

farting games...?

[@MaccusFNS]

4$ on the internet. Only losers buy games directly off steam