The Formation, Diversification, and Extinction of Religions

VACATION WITH RICHARD DAWKINS (JUNE 2-16, 2024)
For details, see: www.skeptic.com/geology_tours...
- - -
THE MICHAEL SHERMER SHOW # 420
Thousands of religions have adherents today, and countless more have existed throughout history. What accounts for this astonishing diversity?
This extraordinarily ambitious and comprehensive book demonstrates how evolutionary systematics and philosophy can yield new insight into the development of organized religion. Lance Grande―a leading evolutionary systematist―examines the growth and diversification of hundreds of religions over time, highlighting their historical interrelationships. Combining evolutionary theory with a wealth of cultural records, he explores the formation, extinction, and diversification of different world religions, including the many branches of Asian cyclicism, polytheism, and monotheism.
Lance Grande is the Negaunee Distinguished Service Curator, Emeritus, of the Field Museum of Natural and Cultural History in Chicago. He is a specialist in evolutionary systematics, paleontology, and biology who has a deep interest in the interdisciplinary applications of scientific method and philosophy. His many books include Curators: Behind the Scenes of Natural History Museums (2017) and The Lost World of Fossil Lake: Snapshots from Deep Time (2013). His new book is The Evolution of Religions: A History of Related Traditions.
SUPPORT THE PODCAST
If you enjoy the podcast, please show your support by making a $5 or $10 monthly donation.
www.skeptic.com/donate/
#michaelshermer
#skeptic
Listen to The Michael Shermer Show or subscribe directly on KZbin, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, and Google Podcasts.
www.skeptic.com/michael-sherm...

[@skepticmagazine]

VACATION WITH RICHARD DAWKINS (JUNE 2-16, 2024) Passage From Ireland to Iceland, Including the Scottish and Faroe Isles For a complete description, rates, and itinerary, visit: www.skeptic.com/geology_tours/2024/Ireland-to-Iceland/

[@raya.p.l5919]

This is G O D wake up❤.

[@raya.p.l5919]

@danpaulson927 since you replied I will unground yr self worshiping spirit for a time. Enjoy .

[@raya.p.l5919]

@danpaulson927 didn't c yr allowed level portion of youth longevity digestion an self beauty Jesus energy 1107 eastren night. Even the condemned are allowed it's a gift. Now enjoy I won't here from I again because yr scared

[@raya.p.l5919]

@danpaulson927 didn't c yr allowed level portion of youth longevity digestion an self beauty Jesus energy 1107 eastren night. Even the condemned are allowed it's a gift. Now enjoy I won't here from I again because yr scared

[@raya.p.l5919]

@danpaulson927 ohh starting now

[@dianneriordan9191]

Great interview with an accomplished scientist speaking insightful words for the benefit of all!

[@jameswagner19599]

Fascinating discussion. As a Catholic with more questions than answers this opened up many aspects of my own search for answers.

[@gregallard2317]

I enjoyed your discussion, gentlemen.

[@uchicha666]

Good stuff as usual. Is there a possibility of future uploads of audio versions to google podcasts or spotify?

[@skepticmagazine]

The show is available on all platforms

[@davidwright8432]

I found the title intriguing, so before even watching the video, checked the book price. Published by , Columbia U Press, UK price £163!!!!! This is insane.

[@davidwright8432]

... but the paperback turns out to be available for £58. About 30% of a week's income, for me! But one of these days ... I gotta have it; yes, I do.

[@LanceGrande-lc6tc]

Or, it can also be found in soft cover edition for around $50.

[@fluidice1656]

Good conversation, but I was expecting more systematics and evolutionary approach. To what extent are religions converging to similar structures vs evolving from ancestral forms? The former can tell us a lot about human mind (why do distinct religions converge to similar solutions?) and the latter would tell us how cultural evolution dynamics are manifested in religions, e.g. in comparison to languages.

[@ericmay7722]

Mark Twain called The Book of Mormon "Chloroform in print."

[@keithbertschin1213]

Time and time again Michael Shermer made a point and his guest didn’t get the cue THIS IS WHERE YOU RESPOND

[@danielpaulson8838]

One human life template, mistakenly called a 'mono-myth,' frames every myth and religion. They are psychology for an evolving species in shells for the ones who are lagging in evolutionary acceptance of other life. The template is universal and global. The religions are local and tribal.

[@umbomb]

Fictional stories don't comprise "a different kind of truth;" they may convey truths (and they may not.)

[@mazharali4163]

❤❤

[@umbomb]

Fifty-two minutes in, Dr. Shermer says, "It would be hard to find something more successful in the history of humanity than religion." It's not hard at all.

[@craigpoer]

Hasn't religion been the backbone of all societies?

[@umbomb]

"The history of humanity" includes the inventions of language; of cooking; of law; of agriculture; of the scientific method and so on and on.

[@account2871]

@@umbomb Religion is the thing that determines the value of those

[@danielpaulson8838]

Humans evolved with different brain types. That was optimizing survival with different people having different roles. The mass of that group have just follower brain types. They are fearful and need to be guided by Alpha's and a few others. Most human brain types optimize them for grunts. Religion is for them. The ones who need invisible big brother watching over them to make them be good. Ever hear Christians say that one cannot be good without God? What they are saying is that they themselves can't be good without the idea of a God threatening them. That's a clue that they are just grunts and can't fathom being good. It's over their heads.

[@danielpaulson8838]

@@account2871 If religion determines values, you got a person without compassion or comprehension. Those are tribal values.

[@dharmayogaashram979]

In the Hindu/Yoga religion we have many many stories about the human condition. Of there are many who take them literally, it's inevitable.

[@science212]

Religion Explained, by Pascal Boyer.

[@wadetisthammer3612]

1:37:54 to 1:38:10 - That's a misunderstanding of the passage I've seen other non-experts make. Paul did believe in a physical resurrection of Jesus.

[@awoj51]

Who knows what alleged Paul believed? You?

[@wadetisthammer3612]

@@awoj51 Yes. The word translated as "spiritual" doesn't mean "incorporeal" (in this context it means something more like "incorruptible") and given the cultural background it would make no sense for Paul to say that Jesus resurrected while Jesus' body was still in the grave. Given the historical evidence, Paul believed in a physical resurrection.

[@leob3447]

@@wadetisthammer3612 Many experts make the same misunderstanding of the passage that you make. Since Paul was not clear on the point, and incorruptible can certainly point to a spirit that cannot be corrupted by the body - it seems like a more reasonable interpretation that Paul saw a vision of Jesus' in the spirit. Paul could have made the flesh/physical body aspect perfectly clear bud didn't. I find it odd that he didn't given that physical resurrections were made extremely clear elsewhere in the Bible.

[@wadetisthammer3612]

@@leob3447 Again, cultural background is important. The concept of resurrection in this culture is a physical one. Another way to think of it: when a pastor calls someone else a "spiritual man" we don't automatically take him to mean being incorporeal because of the cultural background that exists. The first century Christian view was that Jesus was raised physically (see e.g., Luke 24:37-39). Craig S. Keener who wrote a book on the cultural background of the New Testament wrote, "A "natural" or "physical" body is literally a "soulish" body, in contrast to a "spiritual" body. Paul does not teach a future body made of "spirit "....any more than a present body is made out of "soul." Rather, the present body is adapted for current natural existence, and the future body for the life even now ruled by God's Spirit." The quote comes from _The IVP Bible Background Commentary: New Testament_ p. 495.

[@leob3447]

@@wadetisthammer3612 That doesn't clear up anything - those seem to all be concepts Christian theologians have created to try to explain the gaps or plot holes in the stories. Much like how each successive gospel was built upon to try to work out the 'theology'. That's why the original Mark ended with the empty tomb, and decades later (almost a century, actually) you get all the extra stuff from John. You would have thought that if god really wanted this message to get across, he would have imbued all the apostles with the knowledge of writing and could have written it all down while it was happening, or shortly thereafter. Instead we have anonymous writers building out the story over decades, and decades after the actual event. Learning that's how the New Testament actually came together was one factor that greatly shook my faith, after 4 decades as a Christian.

[@awoj51]

Welcome after years of my absence, Michael. Still don't care about any gods, 73 now.

[@johnhall2708]

Stephen J Gould’s NOMA has greater implications than that science and religion are just different domains. If religion is rooted in the supernatural then science needs a major revision.

[@theinnerlight8016]

Science examines the natural world. How would it need any revision? If anything "supernatural" is claimed and can be examined and explained by scientific methods, it is not supernatural. As far as I'm aware, there is nothing supernatural outside of fantasies.

[@dharmayogaashram979]

you might enjoy our podcasts at Dharma Yoga Ashram

[@markwrede8878]

Buddhism became a religion to host monastic properties for living outside the caste system, a task that drove it out of its native India.

[@Pacer...]

4 ads inside 20 minutes? First time ive seen that on here.

[@tomsmith4542]

ublock origin. and you'll never see another ad again

[@danielpaulson8838]

Ah yes, the ever present complainer who wants everything for themself without trading anything for it. The truth is too expensive for you. Go to Church and listen to lies. They pass a plate but you can ignore it.

[@Pacer...]

@danielpaulson8838 are you feeling OK sir?

[@danielpaulson8838]

​@@Pacer... Ah, the complainer returns to the scene of the grumbling. The question is, how are you doing? Pesky commercials ruining your day? I don't get them. Hmmm. What a puzzle to solve.

[@Pacer...]

@@danielpaulson8838 weirdo

[@Eye_Of_The_Pyramid]

No mention of monotheism being by far the oldest religion. The Egyptian Anna papyrus manuscript from 1,230 BC makes it clear that there is only one God, whole, perfect and incomprehensible. That the soul is eternal and does not die after physical death but lives on throughput many lifetimes learning new things and ascending higher and higher to infinite perfection. ♾️

[@LanceGrande-lc6tc]

Actually, monotheism goes back farther than that, at least to the 14th century BCE with Atenism. However, there are countless polytheistic branches that predate even Atenism by hundreds or even thousands of years. What was the earliest form of deity worship in human history? We will never know because it predates the earliest writings by thousands of years.

[@Eye_Of_The_Pyramid]

@@LanceGrande-lc6tc Oh, yeah. I forgot atenism.

[@Eye_Of_The_Pyramid]

The Egyptian Beatle was a symbol it was never worshiped just like the sun was a symbol of God, a circle representing infinity emanating light, so too was the Beatle a symbol of creation. The Egyptian Beatle would form a spherical ball made out of dirt (earth) and insert it's eggs inside so they can hatch and bring forth life (babies). So too did God create earth (sphere) to bring forth life.

[@ALavin-en1kr]

Before conducting or being interviewed on a discussion on religion it would be a good thing if they understood the meaning of religion which is ‘that to which we are bound.’ Religion is not an abstraction it is in our DNA.

[@thierryf2789]

I gave up after 20 minutes or so of trivialities.

[@jj4cpw]

Wish his belief that scientists welcome challenges to THEIR belief systems was more prevalent but ever since Thomas Kuhn we know that’s not the case. See, e.g., “I am the science.”

[@vanessa1569]

You know what? I’ll take my chances with the ‘eye in the sky’ and the internal dialogue that indices. People like you are entirely happy to have * actual * Big Brother monitor your every breath via unaccountable governments 😕

[@theinnerlight8016]

Where does anyone talk about government surveillance? Sounds like you're just making a baseless accusation.

[@vanessa1569]

@@theinnerlight8016 Sure. If you can’t understand why I’m drawing a comparison between the idea of peoples veneration of an ‘eye in the sky’ (direct quote btw) and peoples acquiescence to the governments watchful eye to shape behaviour, then maybe I am making a baseless accusation? We’re on the Skeptic, right? After all, aren’t we currently experiencing a basic conflict between the concept of God being above the state? Hope that makes sense ….on my way out and wrote it on the fly.

[@leob3447]

How about voting for neither? It's quite an assumption you make when you say 'people like you'. There are many athiest/agnostic/non-theist people that are just as against Big Brother.

[@vanessa1569]

@@leob3447 It’s not an assumption, it’s an observation. The atheist types, (not necessarily agnostic) mouth off government edicts like they’re the new priestly class but they do it in the name of science. You can object, I’m sure you will, but you’d be lying to yourself lol. Anyway, as I write this Iran is droning Israel. Let’s hope we can all live another day to have these internet discussion ✌

[@musik102]

Of course they're connected! They all examples of fanciful stories born of mans' need to make sense of the world around them. But, thankfully - and increasingly -modern man is rejecting such fairy tales.

[@virgilioblanco]

Such enthusiastic fraudsters, par for how the gullible have been kept blind and reject their own saving. The "RIVERS OF BLOOD" keeps being replenished.

[@craigpoer]

Isn't a college just a church

[@danielpaulson8838]

Spoken like a dropout. Church teaches some local flavor of supernatural and just lies about it. College teaches you to program software so you can get a job at NASA and move up from pumping gas and stalking shelves at Walmart. Don't take art or religious classes. Those are just money makers for the schools.

[@justins.5222]

3rd!

[@dudarmedharet]

First! (Minus the pinned comment)

[@petermuller6359]

Congratulation! Well done! 👍🏽

[@dudarmedharet]

@petermuller6359 thank you! My dad said I'd never amount to anything *tries to hold back tears*

[@petermuller6359]

@@dudarmedharet Beautifully said. And my great auntie Barbara used to say: " When men have come around you shall best before strive at well being or hell bound come free." She was so inspiring.

[@ryanbuckley3314]

It's less costly to mistake the wind for a lion, than it is to mistake a lion for the wind. Bingo bongo, you got religion.

[@account2871]

It's more costly to be an atheist

[@danielpaulson8838]

@@account2871 Reality is not costly. You just have to buck up. Religions allow many people to feel good about false things because they can't figure out life on their own. Theists don't pay a price. They haven't got anything but hopes and wishes.

[@account2871]

@@danielpaulson8838 Atheists have nothing, because they don't have kids and kill themselves far more often than religious people.

[@VaughanMcCue]

@@account2871 Save the opportunity cost of the tithe if you sleeping on Sunday. No fees.

[@steveshinaver5605]

It’s really too bad I enjoy this channel and the videos, but two commercials every 4 minutes is a last too much for a channel like this, unfortunately I’m just gonna unsubscribe and stick to all the other science/education channels I watch that have actual content not more commercials then content……

[@fullmatthew]

Weird complaint, are you new to KZbin? Get the ad free subscription tier if it's that important to you.

[@theinnerlight8016]

Haven't seen a single commercial in years. No TV, YT subscription and done.

[@mkilptrick]

I noticed the same. Probably a half hour of just commercials. Ugh

[@Pacer...]

Yes, correct, it's not normally like this. Calm down with the ads. I'm not paying for ad free youtube.

[@tomsmith4542]

bro. ublock origin exists

[@francesco5581]

Religion is institutionalized spirituality so is like having 10000 different paths to climb a mountain. Those who are not spiritual have only one path : reductive materialism

[@kban77]

Lol. So climbing a fake mountain of made up stories is good?

[@francesco5581]

@@kban77 there are only two options ... or something created reality or reality created itself without a first cause. The first option is still the most probable even between scientists... At the end the choices are only 2 , Spirituality or Materialism... Spirituality is a mountain you can climb, materialism is flat terrain ...

[@theinnerlight8016]

​@@francesco5581if something "created" reality (whatever that means), where did that something come from?

[@francesco5581]

@@theinnerlight8016 a system can start with 0 (nothingness) or 1 (everything, God or whatever)... The problem is explaining the existence of a certain set in the middle. Also a God can explain his own existence, any other system not.

[@theinnerlight8016]

@@francesco5581 How can a god explain his own existence? Couldn't the universe have just always been there? A big bang being a recurring event into ever expanding space? I don't know, so if you do, please explain.

[@DanHowardMtl]

Fail.

[@dunnbradstreet4106]

Similarly puzzling to me as child sacrifice is the 'berakah' blessing... described as son kneeling before father and dads hands on sons head... might this be a (literally) seminal transmission? ICKY!