The Fundamentals of Vinyl Record Care w/ Michael Fremer

From Fremer: "On Wednesday April 19th I moderated a MusicWatch (musicwatchinc.com) sponsored webinar titled "Fundamentals of Vinyl Record Care". The panelists were Mark Mawhinney (Spinclean.com), Jeff Coates (Finesounds.com) and Charles Kirmuss (kirmussaudio.com). Each represented one of the three basic record cleaning methodologies: manual wet-vat, "velvet lip" vacuum and cavitation.
Communications Research's Marc Finer did the introductions and I took it from there. I was tasked with providing a brief history of records from the Edison cylinder to the 33 1/3 LP record and do it in a few minutes. I did the best I could do and then opened the discussion, with each panelist describing their record cleaning technology.
The webinar was aimed at record store owners, to try to get them to encourage their buyers, especially the young ones, to take good care of their records, and make them aware that if they do so, the records will outlive them and continue sounding great to whomever they pass them down to well into the future.
The webinar posts with the kind permission of MusicWatch. One interesting fact I discovered in my research: Edison manufactured cylinders until it shut down in 1929 but in the mid 1900 decade it made thick, flat discs called "Diamond Discs" that sold for around $1.50. A $1.50 back then in today's dollars is the equivalent of around $34.00!
Keep that in mind when you read stories claiming high prices today will kill the vinyl resurgence. No it won't because the cost is in line with prices throughout record production from the early 1900s through today."
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[@doylewayne3940]

Thank You gentlemen, important info on my Vinyl collection💯

[@austinlibby7025]

I am an ultrasonic and from a five minute wash and ultrasonic. We just distilled water. I don’t buy use records and then I use a record to dry him. Total six minutes per record perfect condition perfectly dried and sounds great under $200 complete system, and believe it or not it works as good as what, your representative does with his equipment and I have 65 years as an audio file collecting LP records everyone of mine is pristine. I have a $7000 turntable and a $2000 cartridge to take care of those. And when you’re spending $30-$150 for an LP which I am done, you gotta take care of them and get the best out of your system. You’re both are absolutely correct most people are lazy and they don’t want to go through all that that’s why they get a CD or just stream, remember

[@austinlibby7025]

Just distilled water. Five minute ultrasonic wash and then dry them. All you need. You don’t wanna leave any surface residue left on the vinyl and using justice still Water Works the best especially on a good record.

[@peacetrain3320]

That was a great session

[@paulomontero12]

I handle records with a lot of care. I have a nokki nokki , nice inner sleeves and so on… then find scratches on them? How does this happen with all the care I go through?

[@user-rn9mt1gx7l]

I have several records with calcium carbonate in the grooves that will not come off even after several deep cleans and ultrasonic cleaning would you recommend using white vinegar to soak scrub and rinse?

[@gprojectnoob4779]

Was kinda hoping for more on cleaning, the actual vinyl production processes and chemicals they use when making them instead of talking about everyones products...lol. A great question for them would have been. "If you didnt have a record cleaning machine how would you clean your personal records?" How is noone recommending using an air compressor to dry the records? Its dries, blows off any debris and you never touch the surface. Ive been cleaning records the same way since the 70's. PVC pipe caps with o rings to protect the labels. Warm distilled or filtered water in my sink with a mild soap. A good brushing while submerged. Warm distilled or filtered water in the 2nd sink to rinse and immediately blown off with compressed air . If its a crazy dirty record ill put it on my 2nd turntable and run the needle through once incase anything is still stuck and while its softened and do the process again. and as a note, i find the hotter the water the better the release agent comes off. It was put on with heat of the press and is stubborn if its cold.

[@user-rn9mt1gx7l]

Will a enzymatic solution by aivs disolve calcium carbonate in the grooves nothing has yet to remove this out of grooves? Thanks

[@rickmilam413]

I didn't watch this. I own a Kirmuss, a Pro-Ject vacuum machine and a Klaudio. I didn't watch because of Mr. Kirmuss. I did watch the panel that Michael hosted at RMAF a few years ago and wasn't up for what I anticipate was more insults and denigration for every approach besides the Kirmuss, which has its points but is not the be all end all. The Klaudio removes more surface noise from my LP's than anything I've ever used. Sometimes I find it beneficial to use multiple approaches, particularly on old pressings. Sometimes I start with the Kirmuss, sometimes the Pro-Ject with one of two fluids on hand, always finish with the Klaudio for surface noise.

[@scottwheeler2679]

OK so I sent the question to the folks at RTI and this was the answer I got. "I’ve seen this question come up, and I know the Kirmuss Audio guy has pushed this idea for a long time. The short answer is no, we don’t spray or apply anything to the stampers to get a clean separation (like greasing a waffle iron). Is it possible that the raw vinyl pellets off-gas something when melted, which ends up on the record? Possibly. I’ve also heard dead silent records right off the press. So I’m not convinced. I think it’s more likely that sleeves, handling, and static (attracting dust) play a larger role in adding noise to new records." Bryce Wilson Quality Control Manager Record Technology Inc

[@kirmussaudio7578]

The record's biscuit contains plasticizers, stabilizers, liquefiers, stabilizers, fillers as well as pvc and the carbon element. When records pop out of the press, they do so through the stamping process. They come out hot. They pop out as there is a release agent that surfaces. Not a spray. Most record manufacturers never realized this. The record now cools, and dirt dust and contaminants around the cooling of the record get fused into this pressing oil. Cause of some of those unwanted pops. We can measure this by restoring the record by the Kirmuss using record ionization and not a cleaning solution whereby the effects of cavitation are attracted to the record. Removed in a before and after test, about 0.89 microns. To this pressing oil, the Shure Brothers in circa 1977 noted complaints from users and resellers alike. The needle was picking something up.. Rediscovered by chance by me only 4 years ago, well after the Kirmuss naming this coating a release agent, this Shure discovery saw the emergence of the first record cleaning machines. Unfortunately due to the Tribelectric table of charges that states where both water and the charge of the record are the same, with or without a soap added, ultimately saw the Shure Brothers in 1978 offer a brush with the sale of the V15 Mark IV. The needle was gouging something. .. the Shure Brothers saw this oil. Named it the pressing oil. Documented in the located diagram by Shure, seen on their archival site of a brush offered that mounted on the tone arm. The Kirmuss presentations using the Keyence VHX-7000 2D 3D 178,000 $ microscope supports this. One's ears as well as a signal analyzer hears the increased soundtage and imagery and registers on a new record 1.3 dB gain over floor with a 12% average increase in frequency response. With pressing oil, release agent removed, so is the pop caused by the fused particle in the cooling record. If one hears newer pops in a recently played record, it is where the heat of the needle has fused into this film surrounding dust. That is why the simplest action one could do is to use a 10 micron diameter brush to remove dust before play. We can also at some point in time review the su ject of outgassing of the plasticizer in a record's sleeve as another topic. Just as in car that "new car snell" that coats the windshield creating that hard to remove film, this can be related to a record doing the same in a record's sleeve. Stuck there with a paper, pvc, polyurethane sleeve for 20, 30, 40 years. Accounts for the 2 to 3 to 4 dB gain after using the Kirmuss process. Met many pressers where the mix of the biscuit which had recycled plastic taken from defective record's and thus was not correct, I am sure where one would agree where this accunts for the record not to always pop out. Indeed one does not spray Pam on the stamper in normal production, but the press operators in a such case has been seen in some plants to ooat the stamper with a metal polish to see the incorrectly mixed composition biscuits to be expressed. Of course processes vary.

[@scottwheeler2679]

@@kirmussaudio7578 This is a bunch of B.S.

[@mazzysmusic]

Why not talk price? It is germane to the various cleaning machines, and comparisons are valid, including cost analysis regarding where every consumer is.

[@abbyandy2]

Thats because the prices for these units are so overpriced even the Spin Clean at 79 bucks is overpriced but it is the most reasonable costs to clean a record.

[@ptg01]

Indeed.. strange.. If you are comparing a $50 to a $5000 unit, would be good to know UP FRONT !

[@PedroMiguel-if3ll]

Spin clean is a bath of dirt!

[@1Hiprascal]

Centre the spindle hole first.

[@kloss213]

What kind of damage is caused by cavitation? Cavitation wear can destroy the strongest of materials - tool steels, stellites, etc. Such damage can occur rapidly and extensively. The amount of damage that cavitation causes depends on how much pressure and velocity the collapsed bubbles create.

[@scottwheeler2679]

yeah, this has not been addressed. Where are the objective tests?

[@kloss213]

@@scottwheeler2679 Maybe for a clean or so its safe but I do wonder about long term Cav bubble damage since its well known that it exists. I use Cav on dirty LPs but only once then I vac if it needs it later.

[@scottwheeler2679]

@@kloss213 the word "maybe" is a deal breaker for me. I want to know before I clean my records. IMO the folks selling this "record restoration system" are full of crap. They are claiming to remove "mold release" which I think they are now calling "pressing oil." There is no mold release or "pressing oil" applied to the plates. The release agent is in the vinyl itself and the last thing you want is to be extracting part of the vinyl itself by cleaning. I'd like to see some real independent science on the subject.

[@mazzysmusic]

@@kloss213 and it is not like anyone really needs to clean records this way more than once or twice in one’s lifetime. Sure some new records might need a lighting cleaning but most old records are fine after just one cleaning (some exceptions). So your rarely gonna damage one with any of the machines or processes.

[@kloss213]

@@scottwheeler2679 I worked in plastics and used mold release and I have found it on LPs seems old LPs may have used it and some new I do know some pressers say they don't use it. Not a deal breaker don't need Cav to remove it.

[@ptg01]

I wonder why "NO PRICES PLEASE" ? At the end of the day, the $$ matters.. Weird.

[@scottwheeler2679]

What is "pressing oil?"

[@kloss213]

In plastics you use a mold release its silicon today.

[@scottwheeler2679]

@@kloss213 I work in molding and casting too. It depends on the materials. They DONT use it in pressing records. I know. I have literally asked people who run and operate pressing plants. The groove excursions in high frequencies at the lowest db levels in a vinyl groove are smaller than the shortest wavelength of visible light. It's so small you literally can not see it using light. What oil do you think would not obliterate such fine detail? Absolutely nothing is applied to the surface of the metal plates. It would destroy the detail of the grooves.

[@kloss213]

@@scottwheeler2679 thats not how mold release works its not oil

[@scottwheeler2679]

@@kloss213 again, you are talking to someone who works regularly with molding and casting for a living. I know what mold release is and how it works. No one is putting any mold release on the pressing plates. The mold release is a part of the vinyl formula. As such it needs to stay in the vinyl. It is part of the material that is the record. If it were extracted it would distort the form of the record. You can't remove physical material from a cast product without distorting it some how. It either leaves a void or shrinks the form. All material takes up space.

[@luton_gmanrock]

Love the fremer dude.....trouble is, the video is about keeping records clean and he is thumbing all over them with his greasy salty grubby fingers lol...

[@scottwheeler2679]

I'd love to see objective proof of these claims of 1.3-4 db gain. How the **** are you getting gain from cleaning a record? You would literally have to increase the physical excursion of the grooves uniformly across the frequency spectrum. How do you do that with the RIAA curve built into the grooves. This is B.S.

[@scottwheeler2679]

@@1Hiprascal That would absolutely obliterate any low level information on the disc

[@heinzb8219]

Did he really say "gain"? I understand his point as to gain some amount of dB in signal to noise ratio, what makes sense to me after eleminating some noise sources off the surface.

[@scottwheeler2679]

@@heinzb8219 Yes, he really did say gain. He did not say increased SNR

[@benmiller388]

Yea this has nothing to do with “kids cleaning vinyl.” This is an add. Kids are going to watch a KZbin video on how to clean them in the sink with dish soap.

[@stateniland]

DeGRITTER MKII Sonic Cleaner.. Do it right do it well!

[@PedroMiguel-if3ll]

$4k for a cleaner? I don't think so A vacuum system from Project costs $500 and its more than enough.