The Genetic Heritage Of The White Templars - 40K Theories

[@ScrapMek]

* Reading from cue card * "Rogal Dorn... You are 'NOT' the father!" - Magos Biologis Phil

[@ahmataevo]

Doesn't matter, he still has to pay for -her shoe closet- child support...

[@adastrawill]

*Dorn:* "Indeed, I am not the father, being a father requires me to have copulated with a female of the species, such a specimen cannot exist as no woman has the fortifications required and would not be able to traverse the fortifications of the chamber known as 'the bedroom'." *Also dorn:* "Yey, Not."

[@internetzenmaster8952]

It's time for another episode of _'Who's your Primarch?! (Hosted by Jerrus Springar)'._ White Templars, COME ON DOOOOOWN!!

[@Rawkit_Surgeon]

I want this on the next TTS!

[@Big_E_Soul_Fragment]

It would be funny if they ended up being Perturabo's sons lmao

[@hanhtoobala7510]

Jerrus, Jerrus, Jerrus, Jerrus.....

[@ethanguest3438]

Royal dorn you are not the father

[@Maxibon2007]

(Awkward Blood Ravens navel gazing)

[@pervyturtle2673]

Every time you mention "no Imperial records" of this or that I imagine some scribe in some backroom of some backwater post sitting on massive store of information about the subject at hand but they never release the information because no one has asked them for it.

[@Matt-md5yt]

Like Kitten's real name?

[@The_Crimson_Fucker]

@@Matt-md5yt What?! I thought everybody knew. It's obviously....no, screw that.

[@grimgun100]

The Black Library could have it?

[@Brother-Martell]

Matt Is your pfp from spiral knights?

[@pervyturtle2673]

@@Matt-md5yt who?

[@complex314i]

Thanks to the Horus Heresy story "The Chamber at the End of Memory," we know that there are Imperial Fists not actually descended from Rogal Dorn. It has long been theorised about the Ultramarines absorbing the lost legions. In this story we learn that both Guilliman and Dorn advocated for the legionaries of the 2nd and 11th. Both primarches desired to take the Astartes of the Forgotten and the Lost into their legions. Perhaps this is the genetic heritage of the White Templars & the Soul Drinkers.

[@40KTheories]

Indeed, I’ll be touching upon this in more detail in the Soul Drinkers video ;)

[@robertnelson9599]

@@40KTheories Will you do a heritage video for the Death Eagles?

[@40KTheories]

Already done one. I may remaster it in the future however.

[@I_like_anime60]

40K Theories About time you did the Soul Drinkers. Asked for them a long time ago.

[@commissardoomslayer6698]

Who else read this in Remleiz’s voice?

[@Robo-kz3nr]

Carmine blades: oh, we're actually sons of Sanguinius Ultramarines: what gave it away Carmine blades:*thursting for blood, getting flash backs of being killed by horus* Carmine blades: ummm... we're just prettier then you...

[@bryanmanuel4945]

Well that is true Sanguinius was just beautiful as the Emperor,Roboute I imagine him just being handsome not panty-wetting dropping as Sanguinius

[@Ajehy]

Bryan Manuel - can confirm. Whenever I go near Sanguinius I need to wear reinforced underwear.

[@sinister9111]

How did the carmine blades think they were ultramarines? They would have been like “brother why do I feel like drinking blood or how come I am calling everyone Horus ?”

[@visitingforgefather5997]

The Red Thirst and Black Rage are kept secret by the Blood Angels and their successor chapters. The Carmine blades were convinced they suffert from a random flaw in their geneseed.

[@TonyRedgrave]

In addition to what Simon Andre said, it's also possible they didn't have the Thirst or Rage at first and it cropped up later. The Lamentors (i think) had a similar situation where they didn't have ether flaw until a few centuries after their founding.

[@magecraft2]

@@TonyRedgrave Also Angels Resplendent did not have them until they became the Angels Penitent, however I seem to remember the Carmine Blades did have the flaws just thought they where theirs only (imagine the dishonour of believing you where the one Ultramarine successor chapter to have genetic flaws).

[@ElJorro]

Black Library really needs to explore minor chapters.

[@madprophet6891]

Minor chapters? How about the freaking Iron Hands? One of the founding legions and all they have to show for it is getting Istvaan'd and occasionally saying "We're here too!"

[@Big_E_Soul_Fragment]

>Chapter literally named *Carmine* Blades >Ultramarines successor Someone in the Administratum: *Press X to doubt*

[@spacecowboy2737]

They renamed themselves after finding out. They were called the Swords of Haldroth beforehand and had no idea why they liked to drink blood and some of their battlebrothers occasionally went crazynutshit insane

[@Big_E_Soul_Fragment]

@@spacecowboy2737 Well that explains everything.

[@danielchew8739]

@@Big_E_Soul_Fragment I would said the same for the Sons of the Phoenix.

[@weldonwin]

@@loltwest9423 Not all of them. There was also the Knights of Blood chapter

[@DankworthBalthazar]

@@weldonwin Don't forget the Flesh Tearers. They're Second Founding, so the naming convention was dead before it began.

[@VoiceOfTheEmperor]

They don't yell "PURGING WITH MY KIN!" during their drops into enemy lines. That's all the difference that matters to me.

[@crytyping.]

THIS BLOODSHED SOO SURREAL!

[@umbralobserver]

Considering their stoic yet furious attitude, it would check out for them to be Iron Warriors. I think part of what makes the rivalry between the sons of Dorn and Perturabo so bitter is that the two legions are so similar in their methods and philosophy. It would then follow that loyalist Iron Warriors seeking redemption in the wake of the Horus Heresy would consider it the greatest penance to be adopted as Sons of Dorn.

[@isaacorr3180]

I love this idea

[@ternel]

If they are loyal to the Imperium, then does it really matter who their primarch was? After all, Malcador himself would establish the Knights Errant using several marines from legions who's primarch was confirmed to go traitor

[@jonniezodiac]

It's fun to find out

[@amazingname.6400]

More ya know.

[@KitKatHexe]

*Cough* *cough* Garro *cough* *cough*

[@bigdaddyfred3869]

An inquisitor would say other wise

[@fiercemushroom4840]

Heresy runs deep and damned is the sympathizer. Only gene seed from loyal servants of the God Emperor of mankind is fit to create adeptus astartes. The sons of primarchs who turn from the light of master of mankind must be burned in holy prometheum and their records destroyed so that they are erased body and soul. Any deviation from this policy is heresy and merits immediate Inquisition investigation.

[@Warrior-Of-Virtue]

3:30 Considering that the Red Thirst and the Black Rage are a thing, I find it hard to believe that ANY Blood Angels successor could mistake their origins.

[@OverlyCynicalPirate]

I'm pretty sure the blood angels tend to keep those two defects a secret from the imperium at large because, 9 times out of 10, a rando inquisitor would be pretty fast to scream heresy and attempt to fuck with their shit. The only people who know enough about them, as far as I know, are Girlyman and a few chapter masters outside of the Blood Angels and their known successors, and papa Cawl.

[@catsndogs98]

“Dude I’m so angry and thirsty all the time ,” “Eh it’s just you and half the chapter we’re ultramarines it’s normal,”

[@jesseberg3271]

@@catsndogs98 For Macragge Cousin! You ever have one of those days when you just want to rip someone's head off and bathe in their blood? What? No? Just me?

[@bw5020]

Today in the next episode of : "Who yo Genedaddy?"

[@Big_E_Soul_Fragment]

Unknown Space Marine chapters: *exist* II and XI legion successor speculations: Ah shit here we go again

[@bowenorcutt78]

Here's a test I came up with to easily determine a chapter's heritage: Take an exemplary member of the chapter, such as their champion, and have him play a game of Minecraft for a few hours. Take what he does during it and compare it to each of the Primarchs' Great Crusade service records. Build extensive fortifications, trade with locals, kill literally everything they see, seek obscure tomes of lore, be stupid enough to create a wither, etc. And in the very likely event that Minecraft hasn't survived into the 40th millenium, then you can probably achieve similar results by dropping him onto a feudal world with a few basic tools and a chemistry set.

[@notasmith8163]

Wait, which legion would create a wither?

[@anoninunen]

Marine: disappeared. Conclusion: Omegon, [EXHUNGED #2], or [EXPUNGED #11]. Marine: Dug a cave to sulk in. Conclusion: Sanguinius, Lion El, Purturabo, or Corvus?

[@stormsurge2103]

@@notasmith8163 Deathguard, Emperor's Children, Word Bearers, or Thousand Sons.

[@bowenorcutt78]

@@notasmith8163 I dunno, which legion had at least one moron dumb enough to cast an untested spell that turned at least 2/3rds of his brothers into undead abominations?

[@bowenorcutt78]

...Though to be fair, that could ALMOST apply to what Corarx had to do to replenish his legion's numbers...

[@dubiousseeker24]

I've heard a lot of loyalist chapters being descended from most of the traitor legions. Carcharadons potentially being World Eaters or Night Lords, Silver Skulls possibly being Iron Warriors, Sons of the Phoenix most definitely being sons of Fulgrim and Blood Ravens potentially being Thousand Sons. But I've never heard about a loyalist Chapter that could be descended from the Luna Wolves. How cool would it be to see a warrior of such a chapter going up against Abaddon in a recreation of Ezekyle duking it out with Loken?

[@jonniezodiac]

I agree, I feel like maybe Loken founded them

[@TallboyDave]

There is apparently a Loyalist chapter that is reputed to be sons of the Warmaster; that being the "Shadow Wolves"; officially they're an Imperial Fists successor, but Aaron Dempski-Bowden, who created the Shadow Wolves, has all but outright stated that they're loyalist Luna Wolves, as he created them for his wife Katie, who loves the Luna Wolves, and is a fan of the idea of loyalist Luna Wolves.

[@arnantphongsatha7906]

@@TallboyDave didn't Grimaldus mentioned them having been nommed into extinction?

[@dubiousseeker24]

@@arnantphongsatha7906 I did some digging, and read that apparently a small remnant of the Shadow Wolves were at Cadia.

[@arnantphongsatha7906]

@@dubiousseeker24 If anybody deserves a primaris reinforcement it's them.

[@petesinton69]

Isn't this chap voicing a character in the upcoming angels of death?

[@ethanguest3438]

Yeah, he was also in TTS as the tech priest that got turned into an inquisitor

[@knowplay3258]

Yes!!! A mention of my boys...The Excoriators!!! My favorite chapter and the army I personally built!!! Zachariah Kersh is now the Chapter Master of the Excoriators!! And he is also the current champion of the Feast of Blades!! The Excoriators get so little love that any mention of them gets me excited!!!

[@gabrieldeoliveira8304]

5:30 Also, we technically still count as a Legion, but we don’t really advertise that.

[@zombiehunter501]

I'm going to go with Luna wolves. They give a Loken vibe to then. If Loken was the one who lowered the shield on Horus' flagship. I could is dorn letting Horus' geneseed being used in one chapter under dorn's fist line to honor Loken.

[@guy_autordie]

I truly like this one

[@AF-kj2zl]

You're killing me Remliez! One of my favorite chapters. I'm hoping a good book comes out of this crusade they are talking about.

[@tekaraethomas6617]

What’s the name of the music at 1:34

[@arielnir2679]

Maybe they are Iron Hands sucsessors? The iron hands do have a ”cold fury”, so Maybe.....

[@amorphoussolid8512]

I also have that thought. If just because I could see records getting mixed up between the Fists and the Hands.

[@LordMarsh95]

6:40 I find it ironically funny that a Space Marine chapter would believe in a misunderstanding due to someone many thousands of years ago filing their paperwork incorrectly.

Administratum: "Who is your Daddy and what does he do!"

[@aopt471]

Your grammar is heresy.

[@cheekibreeki6035]

That's a reference to Arnold, you dip /watch?v=lLl0DVzRksk

[@Manyhigh]

HUMONGOUS TERMINATOR DADDIES!

@@aopt471 I admit to being touched by Chaos.

[@RichterBelmont2235]

3:04 Why would a gun with a barrel as thick as normal human's wrist would eject a much smaller shell casing?

[@ahmataevo]

Maybe the cartridge is too powerful for anything less. Maybe there's unknown flight stabilization elements that require a wider barrel for the shell of said casing.

[@fakename2926]

Richter Belmont they aren’t quite guns, actually. They’re fully automatic mini rocket launchers/gun(?) hybrids. Not entirely certain if they actually function as guns at all.

[@Matt-md5yt]

Intresting chapter, thanks for covering them

[@theunforgiven9641]

Could be a spliced geneseed. Like the Relictors. Which are romoured to be Dark Angels and Ultramarines geneseed combined and the White Templars record of this might of been "misplaced"

[@motmontheinternet]

"Brothers, we've just learned we don't know our father. We need launch for war immediately to find out who he is." "Wha, what? Brother we're trying to figure out our DNA, we should go see a doctor or so-" "WAAAAAAAAAR"

[@jackiesantos2121]

Trying to find a assembly from traitor Legions. The soul Drinker chapter, you mentioned they kind of look like Emperor's Children.

[@Duppyman695]

Sons of the Phoenix......... could also be loyalist Emperors Children

[@hughgedney3393]

A very extremely awesome video as always 40k Theories.

[@necroticneurons9555]

Hey guys, I would like to thank the WH40K community for being a welcoming and enjoyable place to be and wish y'all a good day.

[@internetzenmaster8952]

Don't spreading that idea around too loudly. The 40k community has a reputation as grumpy, nitpicky neckbeard who scrutinize everything like an Administratum scribe with OCD and a semi-hostile online attitude to maintain! Keeps the normals out![/semi-sarcastic] ... On a more serious note: Have a great day Necrotic!

[@jnb_110]

Internet Zen Master Im just gonna pretend that’s sarcasm

[@bobross9581]

@@internetzenmaster8952 What? The community is much more like a massive Space Marine Chapter, "only those fit to join, should", but that's most small online communities.

[@requited2568]

Suffer not the Heretic!

[@docvaliant721]

Has anyone told you yet about recasting?

[@judas9909]

could we get a video explaining why the salamanders were exempt from the codex astartes and the breakup of their legion?

[@spencerschaepman7239]

If you're welcomed at the Feast of Blades, you're a Son of Dorn. That other primarch may be your father, but he wasn't your daddy.

[@attila535]

Rogal Dorn is already a better father figure to Boy, than the Emperor was to him.

[@CAP198462]

So, the Imperial Fists tossed them out the window of the Successors of Dorn clubhouse or are they on probation? It wasn’t exactly clear...

[@Bobrob1597]

I wonder if they're 11th legion stock. We know warriors of the 11th were integrated when the 11th was forgotten. This would make sense of why they thought they were of Dorn as they came from the Fist but in fact they're not of his genestock.

[@ummdustry5718]

10:22 a very sensible policy if you ask me, no one wants to deal with the paternal issues of the adeptus astartes.

[@Zakiriel]

White Templars gene seed comes from the 3rd Legion. Maybe.

[@deadmanwalking971]

Come on, Black Templars White, Templars. It's too perfect for them not to be gene brothers.

[@00Boogie]

I think GW wants a potential sleeper chapter if they want to mix things up with a sudden betrayal. But isn't there a Primarch or two who were never accounted for? Perhaps this mystery chapter finds their longlost Primarch when it would tip the balance at a dramatic moment.

[@edwardsummey8843]

If the Mechanicus do not cross reference to determine Progenitor, then what is the gene seed progenitor of the Primaris reinforcements for chapters with unknown origins?

[@NetMoverSitan]

Relictors? As in those who are a mix of Big Papa Ultrasmurf and 40K Bane. | 4:41 - Unlikely, not unless they found a way to remove the Canis Helix and avoid becoming Wulfen. | 5:20 - They're even more unstable in gene-seed than the last one. | 5:40 - The Black Dragons are possibly a mix of Salamanders and Blood Angels. | 5:55 - (monotone) All hail the Ultrasmurfs. | They might not like what they find...

[@RedCrusader-ph2vk]

I was thinking the whole time that the White Templars were thought to have Rogal Dorn's geneseed because the Black Templars do

[@Sergalt]

Welcome, in new episode of "are you the father?"

[@britinmadrid]

Excellent video ... as always.

[@NingenSlayerZamasu]

Either sons of Dirty Perty, sons of Ferrus or a Chimeric Geneseed. Only way they can be sons of Perturabo is due to Iron Warrior geneseed being nearly identical generically to Imperial Fist geneseed. Either that or they could be a chimeric chapter similar to theories surrounding the Minotaurs and Space Sharks.

[@iamalpharius9483]

Dont forget that the lesser known successor chapter the Royal Stink Fists helped probe for gene seed as well.

[@00yiggdrasill00]

I love this growing trend of the ultrasmurfs being a dumping ground for loyalist traitors and other "we dont know" chapters. The more i hear it the more i like it.

[@Ranmus]

**Bets on Perturabo** Because why not?

[@LupusGr3y]

Considering the paranoia of the imperium, they really suck at noting things down.

[@TK199999]

With Primaris, does that mean no Chapter will have gene seed defects anymore? Except maybe the Blood Angels since the Red Thirst showed up in OG Legion and I am sure the Dark Angels have always been a$$holes.

[@borisdorofeev5602]

Dogal Rorn is their Trimarch

[@neilnightblade]

What's the song that plays during your vids?

[@psaldorn69]

The Adeptus Administorum have made a real f^cking mess of the whole geneseed situation.

[@The0Stroy]

Another option is - Imperial Fists were along Ultramarines, that legion which received Astartes from Lost legions. So the possibility is that they are created out of the gene-seed of one of the Lost and Forgotten Primarchs.

[@grievouslytired7886]

So, I just read the bit at the Wisperheads. I kinda want to see a video about that daemonic shitposter, Samus. Samus. I am Samus. Samus is the only name you will hear. Samus is all around you. Samus is the man beside you.

[@40KTheories]

I'm sure there may be one at some point :)

[@garretthaslam3869]

You know. If i didn’t know that this was about 40k, this videos title would be quite alarming.

[@mattwetherille6539]

I think someone at GW wanted to play a White Templars army but didn't want to use the Imperial Fists chapter tactics.

[@wesbrown3831]

I think the clerical issue was started purposely to cause issues with how the templars ignore the codex. They did not want the templars to continue to grow in size. All these rumors would work in causing division, specifically from the black templars.

[@WilliamMosicki-Nystrom]

I hope in the future every Space Marine Chapter of unknown origins finds out who their Primarch Baby Daddy is because there is just way to many.

[@thenorwegian0906]

I feel like white templars are successor chapter of black templars

[@evelynlamoy8483]

They are likely Loyalists drawn from the traitor legions, those loyalist forces being absorbed into the Imperial fist, only to later be seperated when the legion embraced the Codex Astartes. The Imperial fist were the second most likely to absorb defectors from the traitor legions, only second to the Ultramarines. When those forces were later formed into their own chapters, they did so AS imperial fist successors. Dorn welcomed them as his own, and even though they were not of his genetic stock, he did not treat them any differently than the those imperial fists that were. This, paired with the fact that most loyalists drawn from traitor stock saw it as a great shame, means that chapters this happened to tried to hide the records of their origins, to the point of losing them completely. Dorn gave artifacts of his to all the second founding chapters of his legion, and even gave one to the soul drinkers. The soul spear for which their chapter is named. Interestingly, the white templars, being from an unknown founding, may not be a second founding chapter derived from loyalist members of a traitor legion, but may have been founded later, when a legion that WAS grew so large it had to split in another founding. It is unknown which traitor legion this may be from, but we can make a few guesses. The Sons of the Fenix, an imperial fist successor rumored to be made from Emperor's Children stock seems to strongly imply that the sons of fulgrim were absorbed into the Imperial fist. while we have no confirmation beyond that, they are one of my leading suspicions for the origin of this chapter.

[@nightfire734]

Could you elaborate more of Space Wolf successor chapters? Because they definitely have them.

[@40KTheories]

Prior to the advent of Primaris Marines the only successor chapter the Wolves had was the Wolf Brothers chapter which went extinct, due to being unable to recruit new members into their chapter as non fenrisians became non compatible with Space Wolves geneseed. Following the introduction of Primaris, at least one Space Wolf successor would be founded (the Wolfspear) due to the geneseed being purer and more stable

[@michaelhowell2326]

In regards to the Wolves not being to recruit from anywhere but Fenris, is it something about the planet or the people? What would happen if Fenrisian colonies were to be set up on another planet?

[@gwyndolin1536]

Could the Primarch be Bob of the 2nd Legion, or Larry of the 11th?

[@Duppyman695]

Bob the purged! ...... Larry the lost!

[@Dennis-vh8tz]

Second founding with mysterious or hidden origins. Probably founded by loyalists from one of the traitor legions. If historically associated with one of the Loyalist Legions, they probably fought alongside that legion in the Heresy.

[@Tookieslam]

Here after the tithes trailer, do you think the chapter in the trailer are White Templars ?

[@protagon0001]

Yep

[@AdeptKing]

Here to confirm they are. They straight up say that they are.

[@definitelyadarkangel9225]

How on Terra could someone confuse a blood angels successor for an ultramarine successor? If we're guessing traitors I'd put my money on world eaters. They weren't so out of their mind until angron started smacking nails down their nervous system.

[@kappa6109]

The imperial fist absorb units from the 2nd, 11th, and 20th.

[@Overanalyse_This]

You know the Salamanders are gonna take one look at the White Templars and say it can't be theres.

[@dionjaywoollaston1349]

For some reason I read that as generic when I saw the notification

[@Joseph-mw2rl]

Some are completely out of the question, like salamanders, blood angels or space wolves, cause they don't have curses. Most likely iron warrior or ultramarine

[@johnjaques8705]

Have or will you do a video on the damned?

[@gargoyles9999]

Such Privilege

[@jcephrie]

My theory is they share a Primarch with the Black Templars, but that Primarch was either of the 2nd or 11th.

[@Deysh3]

You would think they could just simply compare the geenseed inside the chapters vaults and a sample of the imperial fist geenseed and see if they match

[@40KTheories]

You would think that, wouldn't you? _shrugs_

[@saucemaster1527]

Gee I wonder who

[@Overanalyse_This]

Dude, is there any significance in the Imperial Aquila only having one eye? Like that there is only one truth? Or that they are looking only to past or future (I can't remember which eye is open)?

[@40KTheories]

Looking back on the glories of the past whilst remaining blind to the decay of future.

[@jameseady7751]

But sarpedon used the soulspear which had encoding which allowed only for dorns blood to use it, unless the tzeentch daemon or mechanicus tampering messed that up somehow

[@40KTheories]

All that proves is that the Soulspear is gene-locked to the blood of the Soul Drinkers ;) Particular if the Soulspear that Dorn found originally belonged to someone else... especially if said spear was one that was originally... _paler_

[@jameseady7751]

@@40KTheories but karl, night lords kill people t.t

[@jameseady7751]

@@40KTheories plus, daddy giving kruze a gift? Never seemed to care that much for him

[@jameseady7751]

@@40KTheories granted i only read the first souldrinker omnibus tho. And maybe a book or two after it, been a few years

[@Gormathius]

I like to imagine them doggedly defending worlds that aren't even under attack.

[@theark4568]

No wonder so many Chapters betray the Imperium. All of them have massive daddy issues.

[@Overanalyse_This]

So, do you think the Imperium has gene seeds from the two missing Primarchs?

[@romancenturion1086]

Wait, did a single Imperial fist survive from the chapter during the war of the beast? I captain if I recall correctly.

[@sonofjack6286]

Yep, a single member of the original Fists survived, and he ordered all of the other chapters of their former legion to send as many scouts, neophytes, and novitiates as possible.

[@LoftOfTheUniverse]

Imperium chapter exists: "there's almost nothing about the existence of this chapter's existence" every time

[@40KTheories]

In this case it's literally because of there being next to no lore regarding them x3

[@LoftOfTheUniverse]

@@40KTheories I'm not critiquing you! It's just GW is always trying to he edgy. Lol

[@blakecheboygan]

Shocking that government wouldn’t even know where it’s valuable resources come from...

[@bigdaddyfred3869]

Was the entire chapter of the Imperial Fist truly destroyed to the last man during the war of the beast or did they lose so many brother to the point where the imperium declared them extinct?

[@40KTheories]

They were wiped out to the last man.

[@bigdaddyfred3869]

Thank you for the clarification, I’m just glad the imperium didn’t accept the destruction of the Imperial Fist and instead reforged them a new

[@grantkruger3689]

All these chapters that aren't descended from the primarch they thought they were descended from, sounds like a prime opportunity for some Alpha Legion mischief 😁

[@reeserobbins8867]

They belong to the 2nd or the 11th legions that was bonded to the imperial fist and the ultramarines

[@TheJakeo147]

Well this just goes against everything i created for for my custom miniatures that i named white templars....

[@AmericanZergling]

I like the idea of chapters being founded off of traitor gene seed, but I must admit that it feels like it's becoming a crutch recently. It seems like whenever a chapter doesn't know their primarch, someone immediately speculates a traitor legion. Personally I like the idea that the Imperium just made a big 'oops' in labeling the gene stock because space bureaucracy is a mess. Alternatively, mechanicus messing around with gene seed again or classically utilizing the lost primarchs (Who were created to explain thing like this) I feel like could be just as interesting without reverting to 'my father is evil' for the usual chaos drama. Personally, I like that black and white aesthetic they got going on, so I'll predict that they are from the 11th legion which could have been absorbed by either the Imperial Fists or the Ultramarines. When created, the 11th legion gene stock from whichever parent legion was separated and exclusively used in the White Templars formation, either purposefully or by accident depending on how this process was conducted.

[@-Big_Big]

that's not quite right. to check for purity they crosscheck versus untainted data sets. so they would know if something was "wrong" since there would be big changes to the gene-seed if from another chapter.

[@Brutalyte616]

In the absence of the Primarchs, very few little in the way of pure Geneseed exists, which is why many successor Chapters can sport radical mutations and distinct ideologies that are practically hereditary. Dorn, Guilliman, and even Jaghatai Khan are noted to have very stable Geneseed, but Vulkan, Russ, Corvus, and Sanguinius do not, and the accelerated growth processes implemented to try and recoup losses after the Horus Heresy only exacerbated these issues further.

[@rastamike14]

These guys showed up in the tithes series

[@MadCat-DruklsAbndKids]

Please educate me, please? I keep hearing that the imperial fists can not create a Susaine, however its spelt, membrane, but isn't that how Corland "sgt slaughter" in the beast arises survived after the planet he was on was tearing itself apart after being beat to shit by the Ork moon? Or is that also correct and plot armor blah?

[@40KTheories]

The reason as to why Koorland and others had a sus-an membrane in the Beast Arises series was due to that series of events occurring only 1000 years (give or take) after the events of the Horus Heresy, and that their gene-seed hadn't degraded to the point of losing the sus-an membrane and betcher's gland at this particular point in time.

[@danielmclellan1522]

Yeah, the degradation is the result of the "pure" Fists stock being the repurposed donations from their successor chapters. Things went a little bit "off" faster than expected. And possibly faster than they would have if they'd continued using the main-line inheritance that was wasted and left to rot ALL over the surface of Ardamantua.

[@BlizzardofKnives]

Ah the Cadian Gate, the good old days...

[@buddyburroughs6072]

So wait... When did the fists stop having the membrane? If its immediate i'd like to point out the major plot hole in the first book of the beast arises since the main several fists are discovered using it to prevent death.

[@40KTheories]

The Beast Arises series also takes place roughly 1000 years after the Horus Heresy, and at that particular point in time their gene-seed was still fairly pure, but over the millennia their gene-seed would degrade and degenerate to the point that they would eventually lose both the Betcher's Gland and Sus-an Membrane. The idea of the Fist's gene-seed being deficient in this regard has been a thing since 3rd edition, and was most recently shown in the 8th edition Imperial Fist codex supplement.

[@buddyburroughs6072]

@@40KTheories that makes sense thanks for the clarification.

[@StylesV13]

If the Space Wolves can't make any new Chapters and the only Chapter they did make is no longer around... Then wouldn't that mean that the Space Wolves are still a Legion?

[@xuttuh5260]

Their total numbers are too low. A full legion (10000+ Marines) is forbidden by the administratum. 1000 is max headcount (chapter) to ensure a fall to chaos will have controllable effects.

[@StylesV13]

@@xuttuh5260 There are chapters such as the Black Templars that have far more than a thousand, I believe they have four thousand. Codex says no more than a thousand but in reality it is just a guide line. If the Space Wolves only have a thousand or so and have no successor chapters then what the hell happened to the tens of thousands of marines that survived the Heresy?

[@Fourtytwo4242]

@@StylesV13 Space wolves do have Successors now thanks to primaris, right now the only known new chapter is the Wolfspear.

[@PatoMaloKing]

Hmmmm...Loyalist Word Beares maybe....?

[@NotHere-o6s]

ngl I was today years old when I knew these guys existed

[@Overanalyse_This]

We need a chapter based on New York mobsters.

[@GentlemanBystander]

It's just more in the theme of shitting on Dorn.