The Gross Truth of Patriarchy

[@jahbern]

“Men look to women for gentleness, kindness, and love…” you mean the fruit of the Spirit? Aren’t we ALL supposed to bear the fruit of the spirit? I don’t think these guys are thinking this through. If men are not CAPABLE of showing love, gentleness, or kindness, then why did Paul describe them as the fruit of the Spirit within all believers? It seems to me that if one entire gender were incapable of those characteristics, he might have mentioned that. Hmmmmm.

[@ameliacoburn4787]

So my brother (before he was married), literally lived in my parent's basement and collected legos. However, context is everything. He had a really good job, and was living at home to 1) save money, 2) accountability and family relationships. Good reasons right? And as for the legos... he actually bought and sold a lot of them, he has a small side business doing that. So while he did (and still does) "play" with legos, he's also made money (or at least made money to pay for his hobby). Of course, if he had a bum job and wasn't using his money and time wisely that would be problematic, not just as a man, but as a Christian. But this just goes to show that context is everything.

[@onegirlarmy4401]

It's so refreshing to hear a more "middle" perspective. I've been calling myself an "equal-tarian." I know that egalitarian exists, but that's usually associated with feminism.

[@TheMaineSurveyor]

Doug’s defense of himself is along the lines of, “I’m sorry you had a problem with what I said, but what I said was totally fine.”

[@vibeauxssxuaebiv3489]

Is is right to do in this case.

[@ChristinaRamsey-zn8qp]

This video was so so helpful to me. I’m actually am struggling with even feeling like I’m fitting in the church with all this hypermasculinity. The bourbon drinking fetish fake hypermasculinity isn’t Christ!

[@vibeauxssxuaebiv3489]

The churchs are filled with effeminate men and masculine women, you really need to come to grips with reality.

[@pearcejayw]

​@@vibeauxssxuaebiv3489nope Lol

[@cross-eyedmary6619]

So much comes down to personality type and temperament. When the church uses stereotypes, they end up pushing people to marry regardless of the person is compatible and regardless of the gifting that God gave these individuals.

[@vibeauxssxuaebiv3489]

Yes...because compatibility is fickle and relative. Matriages are built on commitment not 'compatibility'. Why would arranged marriages have a much smaller chance of divorce? The answer is commitment and biblical love which is a choice, an act of the will.

[@cross-eyedmary6619]

@@vibeauxssxuaebiv3489I was in the reformed cult for about two decades. I know all the arguments, I know all the doctrine. Compatibility matters: "Be ye not unequally yoked..." The fact is that the reformed church has a lot of theology and almost no spiritual discernment. It idolizes the culture and appearance, and we can't have unmarried women in the church, as that would speak to the unfitness of the men. No, so instead they marry young women off to known pedophiles and alcoholics...(cause new creature in Christ and all!) Your church is riddled with spiritual, domestic, verbal, financial, and sexual abuse. Maybe focus a little less on cooperating with the world to "take dominion" and maybe a little more on applying spiritual principles to your own hearts. The reformed church turns its philosophies about marriage and life into hard and fast rules. Glad I'm not in the church of pharisees anymore.

[@Star-dj1kw]

Doug Wilson defending himself: WORD SALAD

[@strykerdawn1]

In my opinion comp is patriarchal. We are called to submit to one another. That's it.

[@josephbachota]

Pastor Joel even makes you feel if you don’t believe in biblical patriarchy then there maybe something wrong with you as a man, sickening!

[@TheMaineSurveyor]

We need to pray for him, and any Christian caught up in false teaching.

[@josephbachota]

@@TheMaineSurveyor agreed

[@TitusCastiglione1503]

At this point, complementarianism/patriarchy and egalitarianism are both kinda sus to me. Not sure which category where I fall into anymore. Is there a “common sense” option? Kinda wish that existed in more of the ideological struggles, come to think of it…

[@historymajor26]

Great points Dean. The purpose of both sexes, especially women in this context, is to honor and glorify God, not “tend the gardener”. Prioritizing and idolizing another human (male or female) over God is outright blasphemy.

[@vibeauxssxuaebiv3489]

That's not what is being said in these circles . The man is the head and has a mission, the woman helps with the mission.

[@bordendonna]

Lol. Okay now i can rest for a minute. A Christian man who acknowledges Patriarchy 👏🏼

[@angelmartin7310]

Patriarchy is biblical. Fallen patriarchy is the issue. And God told us it would be an unfortunate consequence of the Fall.

[@bordendonna]

@@angelmartin7310 I disagree.

[@vibeauxssxuaebiv3489]

​@@bordendonnaWith Scripture

[@bordendonna]

From the Oxford Dictionary: Patriarchy: a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it. "the dominant ideology of patriarchy.” In the system, abuses and discrimination often occurs. This isn’t the teaching of the NT….esp not the teaching of Jesus who challenged male religious leaders for their hypocrisy. Paul also said “submit to each other.” Legalism fails.

[@pearcejayw]

​@@bordendonnaLouder 🔥

[@josephbachota]

Just shared this video on my channel great work on this bro!

[@Underdogtheology]

Thanks man! 👊🏻

[@davidcarlson2166]

I so appreciate you pushing back against manhood/womanhood stereotypes as not being what complementarianism is about.

[@josephbachota]

unfortunately, it's not just Doug Wilson or Kevin DeYoung either. We have to be careful. Voddie Baucham once said a wife can have a secular job but she has to work within the home. Basically saying a wife can't work outside the home. He getting this from the verse that says a women is the "keeper of the home" but being a keeper of the home doesn't mean one cannot work outside of it. That is blatantly adding to the text and saying something that is not there. Now, think about this logically, what about my wife who is a hospice nurse, she works outside of the home because she has to go to where these sick people live, which is a very good, Christian thing to do, is Voddie telling me and my wife she is in sin for doing the job she is doing? What about single mothers who have to work to take care of their family? etc. These types of arguments are not very well thought out and they are overreaches and over stepping of the biblical text. Ironically, Doug Wilson has said a women can work outside the home, so these two don't even agree on that issue, which is what happens when we overstep, thanks.

[@clopez6819]

Right. They completely forget how industrious the Proverbs 31 woman is. She is not just a a virtuous woman but a valiant woman.

[@Star-dj1kw]

I am not a Voddie fan

[@josephbachota]

@@Star-dj1kw I just did a video on Voddie last night if you want to check it out

[@lukewarmnomore7523]

@@josephbachota Post it pls

[@josephbachota]

@@lukewarmnomore7523 it’s posted on my channel under the “live” tab, thanks

[@strykerdawn1]

I see no gender roles or differences biblicaly. We are equally called to the same fruits of the Spirit. We are called to submit to one another in Christ. Women can teach men. Wives and husbands can learn from one another. Everyone is just different- man or woman. Biblicaly there are no gender roles besides being united in one flesh when we come together in marriage. Even then there is no one leader who makes the decisions etc. My husband and I submit to one another as things come up and we tackle each thing together or maybe one or the other would be better at whatever comes up. We lead the family together. I'm submitted to him and he is submitted to me. We love one another that way. That is what love is and what both men and women are called to. There's no difference. We will not be judged by different roles or commands. Just my thoughts! Thank you for sharing yours I super appreciate it. Sorry I missed the live. Love to discuss. It's ok if we don't agree. Good bless

[@Underdogtheology]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

[@ShepherdMinistry]

How do you make a decision if you both disagree and the decision must be made? Also you should read the pastoral epistles regarding men leading the church.

[@vibeauxssxuaebiv3489]

That's anti-biblical to the core. The Scriptures clearly refute your points if you don't ignore what is plainly taught.

[@ThisisPam]

This came up in my feed and I hadn’t seen it because we started watching you sometime after this. Very relevant for right now. We need voices like yours badly in evangelical places today. Thank you!!

[@strykerdawn1]

Ugh. Dw... no, we were created to glorify God.

[@Underdogtheology]

Right?!?

[@lukewarmnomore7523]

I've been wrestling the cult of Federal Vision coming into churches for awhile now, I was saved out of Mormonism and this is sooo sooo close to Mormon teaching!

[@ikantspell]

Sucks to be you

[@Underdogtheology]

Right?

[@ksr622002]

I was also saved out of Mormonism, it's also close to Islam. Islam and Mormonism are very close even though they have stark differences.

[@lukewarmnomore7523]

@@ksr622002 There is a book written in the early 1900's that compares Islam with Mormonism, can't remember the name of it. But yes its the same spirit these works righteousness cults...

[@clopez6819]

Have you checked out Beth Alison Barr’s book? No doubt Kevin DeYoung and has her research in mind when he writes on this subject, she makes him crazy 😅 Anyway When you read her book you can see why DeYoung (and others) inadvertently draw parallels between Patriarchy and Comp because they in fact one in the same. Ephesians 5 is talking about a Holy Spirit empowered mutual submission and yielding one to one another. In the original Greek the paragraph starts in verse 15 “be filled with the Spirit” and then lays out how that should look while living out the gospel under Roman Law while he addresses the Roman household codes. Head very rarely means “authority” in the Greek and most often means “source of life” the reason Paul brings up the one flesh relationship. Head is used to emphasize unity* not authority. Translators have worked incredibly hard to make it look like the conversation about submission and headship starts in Ephesians 5:22 by dividing the paragraph up and putting in headers but from 15 on Paul is on one train of thought and that is mutual submission in a hostile and anti-kingdom environment.

[@clopez6819]

Also want to add I love how far you’ve come away from patriarchy and the strides away from the IFB worldview 😊❤

[@andrewmattiewalter]

Amen!

[@ShepherdMinistry]

If it’s mutual submission then it would make no sense for Paul to clarify the man is her head.

[@wendywest5463]

So very helpful.Dean thank you.

[@Underdogtheology]

Thanks.

[@angelmartin7310]

I don't think it's fair to call misogyny "patriarchy." I think patriarchy is Godly, but fallen patriarchy is a curse. Fallen patriarchy is what God warned Eve she had to suffer as a natural consequence of the Fall. Just ask yourself "If traditional gender roles for man and wife were strictly adhere to but Christ himself was the husband, would that be unjust or oppressive of the woman?" If not then that means fallen men are the issue, not patriarchy itself.

[@ksr622002]

"Husband is the priest of the home, Not biblical"...... Thank you! I argued this with some patriarchs as well as arguing that the husband is not the savior of his wife's body....I was called a feminist. I think they like to throw that label around willy nilly... Also, Tennent and Foster are so far off the rabbit trail that it's a shame that their book gets any publicity. I doubt they are even regenerate.

[@MrWheelchairstud]

When it comes to the connection of the husband and Christ I think of it in these terms...pointing your spouse to Christ. As much as a spouse might love their wife/husband. No one can love, lead and sacrifice better than Christ.

[@davidbisset1405]

Realise this comment isn’t connected to this subject totally. I’m certainly not onboard with the whole BLM woke crowd. But do you not think Dean that the USA has real problems of deep rooted problems of racism of black people in the USA? Certainly from a UK perspective we look on and see the USA as a country that still has a real problem with racism and discrimination against black people and other races. So sometimes I wonder does all the woke blm nonsense (which just accuses every white person of being a racist) stop a proper conversation about the actual problems of racism and race discrimination in America?

[@CarolannBrendel]

I appreciate your calling out this disgraceful behavior. Regarding your point of view, I'm not clear. Do you think women are prohibited from ever discussing or writing about the Bible or the Christian life in public?

[@Izumojin]

What apple program were you using for taking notes on the article that you lost? I discovered this is a problem with Apple Books. I've started to take screen shots of the pages after I take notes since I've experienced this myself.

[@Underdogtheology]

Hey Tim, it was just the Files app. I had marked up a pdf (several times), closed it, and the next day *boom* gone. Oh well.

[@strykerdawn1]

Wow I never know how sextet Kevin is. I've learned a lot from him about the Lord. But this is bad. Wow. Thanks for sharing again!

[@ajleuty2387]

I agree with everything you said on this video, but I would like you to consider why you don’t have a video about the problems women are contributing to our society. It can’t be because they are insignificant. I see it all the time in my church. Men are always getting pushed to be better and mums the word about women. Why? There is plenty of biblical material. I would say it’s because the squeaky wheel gets the grease. In this case the grease is silence. The silence is to their own detriment.

[@davidbisset1405]

I’ve been in full time Christian work for over 25 years mostly below the uk minimum wage and for most of that time if it wasn’t for my wife working as a legal and then a secretary for the health service I we simply wouldn’t have been able for me to stay in Fulltime Christian work. I have also delegated to My wife looking after the families finances as I am very poor at mathematics due to being physically and emotionally abused by a female maths teacher as a child. Equally though my wife and I don’t believe in Woman Ministers or Pastors.

[@strykerdawn1]

We become one flesh. How can there possibly be a leader will/ subordinate will? This reminds me of ESS which is the idea that the Son is eternally subordinate to the Father. They teach a husband/ wife's is a picture of the eternal Father/Son nature where leader/subordinate is an eternal right and good thing. This isn't biblical. The Father and Son (and Holy Spirit) are one eternally with one will. There is no leader/subordinate relationship in the Trinity. Jesus on earth in the flesh was subordinate to the Father. Eternally they are united as one. You made some really good points when you were describing how subjective their judgements on what it means to be a man.

[@Underdogtheology]

Thanks and while I disagree with your position on the one flesh and what means, I respect your opinion. Oh and I just didn’t have time to flesh out the ESS stuff but you are 100 correct about there being a correlation between this and that heretical view.

[@Foffs_Musings]

These men at the roundtable should look into how many times God refers to himself as our "helper". I actually like a lot of what Doug Wilson has said and stood for on different issues. I watch his Canon Press and Blog and Mablog content even though I disagree on some things but some of this is just gross. Sorry for the multiple comments, I am commenting as I go lol.

[@Underdogtheology]

No worries, bro. But could you edit your comment and remove the link. I don’t allow links in my comments.

[@Foffs_Musings]

@@Underdogtheology No problem. Didn't know that. You definitely convinced me to stop listening to Doug. I had no idea there was so much abuse happening. Definitely looks like a possible Mars Hill situation.

[@Underdogtheology]

@@Foffs_Musings thanks man, I probably should post that more often in the comments. And I’m glad. Wilson doesn’t deserve your attention or anyone’s for that matter.

[@Foffs_Musings]

I am an egalitarian, so as a bit of an outsider who was once an insider i think the irony here is that complementarianism puts a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths because so many in the Church have made it more restrictive than it needs to be. They shoot themselves in the foot and then double down, only 48 minutes in so I apologize if you made this point already.

[@Foffs_Musings]

great video btw.

[@Underdogtheology]

Appreciate that!

[@Underdogtheology]

Haha fair.

[@ctvtmo]

Interesting podcast. Question, what do you do with Isaiah 3:12?

[@ksr622002]

Read some commentary's. "Women rule over them"... Is referring to effeminacy of men. The men had become effeminent. Men acting like women is sin, they were also acting like children.

[@ctvtmo]

@@ksr622002 I have read a few commentaries on Isaiah, however, whether you take the passage in the plain literal sense (which is always preferable) referring to women, or as poetic reference to effeminate men, how does that invalidate my question? Either way the qualities relating to being a woman do not go with leadership.

[@josephbachota]

Thank you, thank you, thank you, so much for this. I got into it a little bit with pastor Joel Webbon of right response ministries and he is a huge follower of Doug Wilson and pastor Joel big time supports patriarchy and he does believe women submit to all men, why? Because he is sexist! I know that for a fact because he admitted it to me! Doug Wilson has a video saying “getting back to the lost virtue of sexism”. They are both sexist and by default do view women as inferior to men. I made a video exposing this garbage months ago, thank you sir, finally, some one else sees what I saw, thanks Dean!

[@Underdogtheology]

Thanks for the kind words Joseph. I appreciate it. Yeah, Joel is a follower of Wilson so I wouldn’t expect anything less.

[@TheMaineSurveyor]

@@Underdogtheology It’s not just Joel & Doug’s sexism that is a problem, but it’s their view of dominionism, Christian Nationalism/Christian Reconstruction, and their flawed hermeneutic by which they read the Great Commission, which I call Neo-Postmillennialsim. Neo-Postmillennialism is a political ideology disguised as theology, which is means to gain political power. It is the lens by which the Great Commission is read, as well as any passages mentioning the word “nations.” It seems to lead to collapse of law-gospel distinction and monocovenantalism, of the Joe Boot variety in its most extreme expression. It’s not a Reformed movement by any stretch. It is actually very humanistic, boasting about what men can achieve. We should avoid such churches. A friend of mine is going down this route, and I don’t know how to best help him.

[@lukewarmnomore7523]

Another is Michael Foster and Dominick Bnonn Tennant Authors of "it is good to be a man" (which subtitle should be it sucks to be a woman) Anyway, they think they are the Christian version of Jordan Peterson... I believe these views will divide. Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. ~ Paul Rom. 16:17

[@sonnyh9774]

Context... yes, agreed. Genesis says the man will rule over his wife.... deacons aren't qualified if they don't rule their house well. Older women are to teach younger wives to obey their husbands. The authority structure mirrors Jesus and the Church. Wives submit to their husbands as to the Lord... in everything. Women are to submit to their husbands as to the Lord and as the Church is supposed to submit to Christ. So, when does submitting to the Lord ever result in not doing what the Lord wants (outside of sinful insubordination and rebellion)? Answer: Never. The Bible clearly says the husband is to rule over his house and wife in Genesis 3 and in qualifications for elders and deacons. If a man doesn't do this well, he is not a good follower of Christ and not qualified to be a church leader. Paul says just as Sarah called Abram Lord... so should you be to your husband. The facts are that women today have been indoctrinated into a feminist egalitarian syncretism of marriage that is not Biblical. The government structure is clear.... the husband has the final decision. To allow women to veto or stalemate the husband is an attack on the Gospel and Jesus Christ indirectly

[@awilson8521]

Pretty certain you've mischaracterized DeYoung and Wilson. Some thoughts: Eve is ruling CREATION with Adam, but she is NOT ruling Adam. God aligns himself as a male, in pronouns and the person of Jesus. Abraham and Moses were patriarchs to Israel, and the NT apostles were all men. If you read all of scripture, there is a "father rule" and NOT a Matriarchy. Proverbs 31 demonstrates a woman's focus on tasks "for the household" and shows women how to be "for the household". Women, in general, are not to rule over men, in general. Wives, specifically, are to submit to their own husbands, specifically. Is DeYoung and Wilson off base about some things? Everyone is, so we have to figure out what's off base and ignore that (and argue against it). When people are right, we need to accept that no matter who says it (or we commit the genetic fallacy).

[@Underdogtheology]

I think you’re confused. It is not an either all men rule all women or all women rule all men world.

[@TheMaineSurveyor]

I can say that it’s best to avoid Wilson and not be in danger of committing a genetic fallacy. It’s not my responsibility to search out everything Wilson says and tell everyone when I think he gets something right.

[@ksr622002]

Scripture does not say that women are to submit to men. A woman is to submit to her husband and that's it... She is under no obligation to submit to any man out in the world, the workforce or even in the church. There is no command for all women to submit to all men.

[@Sylver_Echo2923]

@Kaylene Did you read his comment? He said wives are to submit to their husband's.

[@vibeauxssxuaebiv3489]

​@@ksr622002That's blatantly wrong.