The Group S Cars (Part 1)

[@JackohMotors]

You guys all seem to be really positive about me making a part 2 to this video. I'm currently onto the editing phase, so estimate it should be around a week until it is out. Thanks for waiting!

[@ryanc00p3r3]

You forgot the the Lada Samara S Proto. It may look like a joke on paper and looks but the car is pretty competative, its a predecessor of the Group A Lada. Yeah the Horse power figure is to make it allow for Group B and Group S. Same engine as the Lada Group A, 300 BHP NA down tune restricted and central dif AWD Mid engine layout. Official Max Power, Still classified from Soviet era to modern era by the Russian Jet engine manufacture. Chasis is a Alluminum space frame monocok insted of lighter materials for stragnt, low cost, easy to build and yeah.. To make it for FIA weight regulation which is pretty heavy regulation.

[@kaidokiller]

Please make part two this is really interesting

[@BikingwithJP]

Love the dry wit humour, keep the videos coming :)

[@Blueflag04]

I can wait

[@bravelittleabacus]

There was one other car you forgot for part 2: The Lada Samara EVA. It was like it's VFTS cousin in Group B, but it was based on a Lada Samara and was mid-engined rear wheel drive. It was also producing 380hp.

[@iSkiLLeTXx]

the moment you remember that even lada wanted to make a +350hp midengined awd hatch for group s

[@ineednochannelyoutube5384]

I mean, 250bhp rwd tuned ladas were all over the regionals in all of the eastern block, making a porpouse built rally version would make sense.

[@racecardriverrr4201]

there was already a Gr.B lada

[@Madrat-tw2in]

@@racecardriverrr4201 yeah but that car was nothing compared to their group s car

[@racecardriverrr4201]

@@Madrat-tw2in True

[@dusankocisevic6823]

LADA. BONKERS. RESPECT. 🙃🙃🙃

[@TamiyaGuy123]

Even as a bit of a Group B nut, there was a staggering amount of information I never even knew about Group S in this video - you've clearly done your research on this, and it absolutely shows. Big props for searching around for images & videos as well, and not just using the more easy-to-find videos from the cars' Group B counterparts or their replicas. I never even knew that the 405 was planning to be the 205's successor specifically for its longer wheelbase before being repurposed as a hillclimb car, particularly given Group B's tendency towards shorter wheelbases for manoeuvrability. I'd be absolutely fascinated in learning more about the smaller/more obscure Group S cars you mentioned at the end. The concept of a dual-engine system in something as tiny as the Ibiza sounds like one of those the bonkers ideas that could only have existed in the 80's. And to top it all off, you credited your sources when you used videos from other people. Anyone that does that earns immediate respect in my books.

[@JackohMotors]

Thank you so much!! Comments like yours make the whole video-making process all the more worthwhile :)

[@AmirPomen]

I dont think 405 were meant to be successor to the 205... It was used only in dakar rally and hillclimb because longer wheelbase means better stability on high speed run for those 2 type of events ? Anyway this is just my thinking..not in anyway backed by any official fact/figure

[@poplaurentiu4148]

Well the list of Group-B to merge in Group-S secret cars was a bit longer than what is mentioned for part 2 : Mitsubishi also did modify a Starion 4WD for Group-S was in full testings.. along with Porsche 959 S (that won latter Dakar) and FSO 2500 Strato-Polonez 4WD.. Nissan also made a mid-engine 4WD prototype that old rumors spoken it was intended to enter WRC Group-S but not sure why got ditched Nissan Mid4 II, other old 84-85 WRC clips show BMW - M1, they did few races in last 2 years of WRC Group-B most famous courses only on dry & paved tarmac stages and intended to fully enter entire season WRC in Group-S along with another exotic name Ferrari who got the 308 GT/M for WRC raced just same like M1-PROcar few times in Group-B but one italian auto-magazine had an article about more serious intentions of Ferrari announcing to enter next with the 288 GTO EVO prototype in WRC Group-S.. After the Group-B banning the one off 288 GTO EVO prototype was intensively used by factory engineers as testing-muhle helping Ferrari to build the legendary F-40..

[@Shinyodd]

These videos are fantastic! Really high quality stuff, really hope more people begin watching these!

[@JackohMotors]

Shinyodd Thank you very much! Glad you enjoyed it! :)

[@rikkwedge7531]

High power rallyboyes yeet Petition for a Group S rally car themed Automation/BeamNG build lul

[@__Not_To_Knovv__]

Sup Shiny! Waddup?

[@paccin339]

Whoa that's a weird encounter I must say

[@DAZUNIVERSALINDUSTREIS]

WASSUP SHINY

[@slaidk1405]

Just one word: Perfect

[@exvious6066]

NO ONE CHANGE IT FROM 69 LIKES! (Also nice.) Edit: frick

[@wizzotizzo]

​@@exvious6066 how old are you now mate

[@noahmcgonigle8099]

We need a full on Group B rally racing. Like, a full simulation. Spectators on the track, dangerous jumps and turns, and malfunctioning parts, like the co-drivers mic being broken. Once you finish the group b sector, you race in group s. I know group b never had an official ending, and group s never started, it would be cool to have a rally game like that

[@xMrManu]

I know I'm a bit late, the only game I know that adds group S cars is art of rally. It's not a simulator, but it's quite fun as well, and it's the only one I've heard of that imagines the world if group b was never suspended and deleted

[@noahmcgonigle8099]

@@xMrManu saw that little game. Pretty sick

[@its_hysteriaa]

Would be actually balls to the wall if Codemasters implemented something like this in their rally games

[@rucarnuts13]

Do a Part 2, if only for the Group S RX-7! That would have been nuts! The lightweight, rev-happy, compact nature of the rotary engine inside an short AWD sports car chassis would have been insanity! As it was, the Group B RX-7 was pretty nutty with only 350~ish horsepower from a NA Peripheral Ported 13B. 10K+ RPM, AWD, 600+ HP! Man, if only...

[@peterdaviesracing]

I even read something about 4 wheel steering...

[@rucarnuts13]

David Jundt - If it’s anything like the rear wheel steering that they had in the standard FC’s; then it’d likely be a form of dynamic tracking based on body roll. Super lightweight, simple and effective way to get better turn-in. Probably would have made for a killer combination!

[@dusankocisevic6823]

@@peterdaviesracing there is a Lancia Delta Integrale gr.A prototipo with 4WD steering parked in somebody’s showroom/livingroom in northern Italy………. MADNESS

[@m1a2abramsmainbattletank58]

The Peugeot 405 t16 remains as a pikes peak hill climb monster that still competes in pikes peak today

[@eugenizer]

I'd like to see part 2 ;-) + your editing got better! Keep it Up!

[@JackohMotors]

eugenizer Thank you! I’ll get onto it eventually!! 👍

[@futten3230]

same

[@akosadriankasza266]

Since i first saw the Lancia ECV i thought it's a scary car. It looks scary and is an absolute beast.

[@kfoalbfkdkd5302]

Yup, and it was so far ahead its time, especially the usage of a carbon fibre body. Also the triflux engine is a fascinating piece of machinery!

[@danwright7389]

Very interesting and I'd like to see part two! Technically Group S resurfaced in 1997 as WRC regulations.

[@pentagrammotorsport]

Great video. You’ve missed the biggest innovation on the ECV though. It ran a triflux cylinder head with a central inlet manifold and exhaust manifolds on either sides so the inlet and exhaust valves were diagonally opposed and there was no “hot side” This meant some of the experimental maps yielded over 900bhp from a 1.75 litre lampredi twin cam. Absolutely awesome machine!

[@JackohMotors]

Its a shame it never saw any official races, would've been awesome :(

[@derschwarzgeist]

I was waiting for this to be mentioned. It's too bad the concept kind of died with the ECV (as far as I know). It's probably a fair bit more mechanically complex, but I could see it potentially being used to get more power out of modern engines and/or improve their fuel efficiency.

[@Hopscotchlemonadespritz]

Each of these cars are so brutishly beautiful

[@deadredeyes]

Fantastic video! Subbed and hoping for a Part 2.

[@JackohMotors]

deadredeyes I’ll get on it at some point!

[@josaphatfebrianj.f_works2838]

the fact that the 405 T16 won Paris Dakar and Pikes Peak is a proof that Group S meant serious business

[@PrehistoricBeasts]

This was an enjoyment to watch. Thank you.

[@TheKurtkapan34]

Yes! Just watched Group B video and easily a new subscriber. You did good my man. KZbin algorithm worked good today. That Skoda is awesome!

[@JackohMotors]

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it! I think the Skoda is fantastic and sadly overshadowed by the big boys

[@TheSergioTurbo]

One interesting thing about the ECV "replica" is that it isn't exactly a replica - while they had to use a regular S4 chassis as the only ECV chassis is fitted to the ECV 2, the body panels are the original ones and a spare Triflux engine has been fitted to it. The car even has the original experimental Campagnolo carbon fiber wheels, though those are fitted only when the car is on static display and regular racing spec alloys are used when the car does show runs. All in all, I believe that more of a replica it can be considered more of a "completion" using the closest replacement avaible for parts that simply weren't available.

[@dusankocisevic6823]

Beppe VOLTA. The man is A LEGEND. 💚🤍❤️

[@Superstocker669]

The time Homer Simpson designed a car for Audi....

[@Cosigner22]

1:00... That RX7 is RAD!!!

[@connorminniss9621]

This was such a good video, the best historical automotive video I have seen in a while!

[@kirkniese]

Thank you so much from the State of Maine. I can't get enough of this technical detail. Well done!

[@JackohMotors]

Thank you very much!!

[@roystevenson1635]

Great video mate really enjoyed that

[@JackohMotors]

Roy Stevenson Thank you very much!

[@JkTheMixer]

A couple of notes for the otherwise brilliant video! Group S was first meant to be the "prototypes for rallying" with little to no restrictions. This included the 10 car homologation and unrestricted engine size and power. However, after Toivonen's and Cresto's accident everyone knew that Group B was too dangerous to be left alive. After this, the Group S was modified as the successor of the Group B with the 10 car homologation rule kept, but with the permitting of exotic materials and 1,2l turbos or 2,4l NAs with around 350 bhp. This class was pitched against the Group A regulations and I believe Lancia first supported these regulations before seeing the marketing potential of the Group A and switched over. Peugeot supported the Group S rules but left the negotiations early to focus on the 905 and Dakar, and Mazda switched from Group S RX-7 to the 323 4WD Group A. The only real supporter for the Group S was Toyota, which of course joined the Group A in the 90s. When discussing about the new regulations for the 1997 season the Group S was again brought to the table, with bans to some exotic materials. This was however quickly ruled out in favor of the WRC regs. Basically, when the Lancia and Audi could push over 700 bhp (900 was probably reachable), they were made for the older, pre Corsica 86-Group S rules. If the Group S were to be materialized in 87 or 88 (there was a one year delay proposed which was to be driven with Group A cars), they would have had the before mentioned 1.2s or 2.4s.

[@jxpd7898]

These cars just look awesome, insanely awesome

[@aahessu]

These videos are pure Gold and your narrating voice is perfect for these kind of videos. Instant sub!

[@JackohMotors]

aahessu Thank you!! 🤙

[@BastardX13]

Wicked look and sound, that Mr2

[@blackbirdsr71]

Great video, excellent information. Please do part 2! I concur, Group B shrine is the best website on the internet!

[@ack434]

These are like the forbidden gems of the auto world.

[@luscorpio3679]

I've seen the 405 prototype at the Peugeot museum. Even looking at it, you could imagine how crazy it would have been. The 405T16 was there too

[@RogueBeatsARG]

That Lancia look so futuristic!

[@poplaurentiu4148]

Well if that looks futuristic just hear me out because you will tank me latter.. the Peugeot 405 was just a test bed for the prototype named 'Peugeot Quasar' (search it with google pics) that space-ship for roads suppose to run in Group S rally.. ;0)

[@RogueBeatsARG]

@@poplaurentiu4148 what about the Oxia! Peugeot got some space ship looking cars in the 80s :D

[@poplaurentiu4148]

@@RogueBeatsARG That one might have being build to follow Audi 100/200 Quattro on Trans-AM American series or European Touring series Nurburgring included since the Oxia concept suppose to have 2 limited slip differentials, four wheel steering (front opposite to rear) and the body made in experimental honey-comb structure it was very light, definitely it could have been a deadly weapon on any tracks ! ;0)

[@MoultrieGeek]

Excellent video, definitely do part 2. I really enjoy seeing prototype rally cars of any class.

[@danimokahal9496]

Amazing video, i was bit surprised that you did not mention the triflux engine that lancia developed.

[@CyberCreeper22]

petition to include group s in dirt rally

[@kajwis2675]

I discovered your group b vid yesterday and I really like it good job👍

[@JackohMotors]

KAJWIS Thanks man!

[@devxc2789]

Oh yes I was hoping for this. Thanks great vid ;) Do more if you can @7:21 hahahaha nice :D

[@tyleresker3306]

I would very much like to see a PT.2 to this, you have earned my subscription brotha

[@Mr037rally]

Good video, just a small point the mid-engine quattro shown in the photo with an S1 E2 quattro wasn't a Group S car it was the mid engine Group B car. One of the reasons it was scrapped by the VAG board was that they thought that it was admitting that the front engine quattro concept didn't work and they were afraid it would kill the sales of the 4wd road cars. Also they had already decided to leave rallying so making a brand new rally car was taking the piss, so it was destroyed in front of Ferdinand Piech. The photos are from the article in Motorsport Magazine from the early 2000's about the Group S cars and the single mid-engine Group B car , I have a copy in a box somewhere. The article is available online and is well worth reading. Keep up the good work though mate.

[@afrobrur2065]

Back at it again with a banger of a video!

[@woopimagpie]

Excellent work! I learned a few things I didn't know and I'm quite the rally enthusiast, well done. Do part 2!

[@JackohMotors]

woopimagpie Thank you!

[@sugar4522]

Just found you! Brilliant video very informative👍🏻 subbed

[@simonalexandercritchley439]

I am familiar with the ECV1 but had not seen the more rounded ECV2,same for the Ford.Amazing stuff,keep up the good work.

[@lancergt1000]

1:48 "The TCT faded away and isn't remembered that well" Unless they've played SEGA Rally that is

[@rb5stevenumber903]

I actually saw the vauxhall astra group s rally car on the Audisport rally in Wales in the 80s when group B was coming to and. We were on our way home and noticed the ford service team waiting for the RS200s to arrive, so we stop and waited to watch the service when the fords came in, having enjoyed watching that we were just about to go when the group s vauxhall arrived for service, that's the first and only time I saw a group s car in action.

[@bogfinken]

Great stuff, keep up the good work! Looking forward to part 2

[@LaFritePerreGoat]

part two? YES!

[@Jeff-kz5kl]

Cool! Make part 2!!! Let's see that RX7S!

[@teemumyyrylainen9247]

most of those cars raced in rally cross and hill climb events from 87 to 94-95... some even in non official rally events that did not follow FIA group rules, where group b cars still raced after 86 season. apart from audi and lancia prototypes that where never raced.

[@remiracine7172]

Yes do part 2 very interesting

[@DjNikGnashers]

Awesome video, with genuine outstanding, interesting, and factual content. Well done sir.

[@JackohMotors]

Thank you so much!!

[@HasBeensNAddicts]

So happy I found your channel. Great content 👍

[@ticalh76]

instant sub, part 2 would be lovely!! thanks a lot

[@peterdaviesracing]

I hadn't noticed that the RX-7 Group S even existed... until I stumbled over pics that also lead me back to rallygroupbshrine :D Weird you didn't cover it directly, since it looks as alien to the original RX-7 as do the Gr. S Quattro and the ECV2.

[@prorandocopier7945]

Group S was the aerodynamic monster, with *B U B B L E* HEADLIGHTS.

[@360madfish9]

Yes mate, make part 2 👏👍🚗💨

[@kieran8881]

good on you for this content brother

[@Kautz2]

Great Video! Ur channel is very underrated

[@JackohMotors]

Lieven Kautz Thank you!

[@dominique21480]

Make a part 2 ! Ur doing some good work!

[@mrg8963]

That Peugeot 405 looks awesome

[@Ogmu.]

Subscribed, good content, good delivery, keep doing what you're doing

[@JackohMotors]

Thank you!! :)

[@andregon4366]

Damn, Lancia truly was something else. Would Group S get green light and we might see another epic battle between Lancia and Audi.

[@dusankocisevic6823]

Oh, SO TRUE…………

[@slaidk1405]

The video didn’t loaded and I give a Like, continue with this good content

[@JackohMotors]

Disgustang No mustang Thank you very much, glad you liked it 😃

[@adamkurek7214]

The most quality content I've seen in a while, hope you gain the deserved amount of subs 🚗

[@JackohMotors]

Thanks man! Really appreciate it!

[@CharlieFoxtrot06]

I'd love to see a Part 2. Especially interested in the Mazda, but it would be great to see some of the other almost-rans from that insane period of rally.

[@kltsoi5860]

Yes part 2 pls, since those are less known for

[@andrewwang8204]

Make more! Need to know about the Group S RX-7

[@Hellisoy]

And dont forget the 300 HP limit for the cars.

[@AnthroGearhead]

Its a troll , actually those 300hp rally cars were having over 400hp

[@liverush24]

I've got John Davenport's Group B book, where it states that the Group S horsepower was, as you say, to be limited to around 300/350HP. Also the car's silhouettes were to be calmed down, so that they more closely resembled road going cars. So no more massive wings, ect.

[@AnthroGearhead]

Despite that fiery incident , grp B rally cars stayed on till 1991 with lesser power before resignation from the event .

[@Hellisoy]

@@liverush24 That is a great Book, with fantastic images from McKlein.

[@liverush24]

@@Hellisoy Yes it's a lovely book.

[@rseasyguidesto]

This video is sick man

[@JackohMotors]

Thank you very much! :)

[@andymb601]

Man, your channel is going to get a lot of subscribers in the near future

[@JackohMotors]

Thanks for the support! I'm already ecstatic with the growth of the channel over the last month considering I was at 30 subscribers 3 weeks ago ;)

[@andymb601]

@@JackohMotors dude your quality is through the roof! It's like the WhatBass? channel. Good quality and good research = lots of subscribblers. You should make a discord. I think that'd be a good idea

[@JackohMotors]

@@andymb601 Yeah, I've had a few comments asking me to make one, I think I will ;)

[@mmababy]

Please do a part 2👍

[@yiukdosfg]

So interesting. Thank you for this!

[@JackohMotors]

yiukdosfg No problemo :)

[@bobsmudger3979]

Wonderful upload thanks 👍

[@vintageman91]

The Rallygroupbshrine site is amazing , i have been reading it over and over. But i think the Mid engine sport Quattro was actually meant for group b and the rs002 for group S.

[@JackohMotors]

Tyrox 222 Ywah I realised that after writing the script, but I felt it would be good to keep in because it’s quite interesting. Thanks for watching :)

[@farizshj]

Great video!

[@sportquattro8430]

Great vid! What's most interesting...Audi denied the existence of the group s car for almost two decades

[@timakimat]

Btw, it's Hannu Mikkola driving that Audi in Goodwood

[@TheRenaissanceGuys]

Great videos!

[@JackohMotors]

Thank you very much!

[@beijingbond]

Great video. Thanks.

[@DrMurdercock]

another top notch video

[@alexrimeisis1298]

If group S never got cancelled, we would probably have LMP1 style rally cars by now.

[@tedt7991]

No need to imagine, look up pikes peak hillclimb cars, trailblazers.

[@byrondot]

My guess about the odd look of the Audi Group S, is that was just a design to cover the chassis while they were doing some tests, and nothing more. On those years, Audi design lenguage was very boxy, and I don't feel that they were developping a car that couldn't be associated with any of their cars on production. As it was a "secret" car even to to audi, it's logic that they tried to do that with that prototype. Nice video, and thanks for share it with all us!

[@LotsOfToubleUsuallySerious]

The Audi RS002 is so insanely wild that the other cars look basic in comparison, despite being as insane if not more than the Group B cars

[@Abhishek-150]

Nice work bro.. Keep it up..

[@Shadowboost]

Never knew about the ECV2.

[@jonmarshall1502]

I’d rather watch these cars screaming through a special stage, than the boring crap the WRC has now. Good video.👍🏻👍🏻

[@TheRUBrally]

Great GREAT video... but why Lancia produced ECV2 in 1988... the group S was scrapped in 1986...

[@BassyBoy]

Am I allowed to say I was one of the first when your channel blows up? Love these mini documentaries :)

[@Mr037rally]

Excellent video but there is one part that is inaccurate. The mid engined quattro was built as a group B car it was nothing really to do with group S, Dr Roland Gumpert told me the story in Goodwood FoS, it was to show the board of VAG that they couldn't compete against the other teams who were building facing prototypes and they were racing a modified road car. Also one of the biggest reasons it was canned was J M Blastre FISA president didn't want the manufacturers to have any real say in rule making etc in the sport. This also wasn't helped by the FIA going against their own rules by banning group B and group S without giving the manufacturers 2 years notice, Peugeot were going to sue and didn't return to rallying for years. BTW Gumpert mentioned that one of the 002 group S cars was missing, and I'm pretty sure he knows we're it is. But fair play mate brilliant video and can't wait for a part 2.

[@JackohMotors]

Yeah, I thought the mid-engined quattro was extremely cool and I wanted to talk about it, and I didn't think I'd be able to speak about it at another point, so I bunged it in here. Probably would've helped if I'd remembered to mention it was a Group B prototype and not S.

[@Mr037rally]

@@JackohMotors That's the best video on the subject I have ever seen, just finding out bare facts is such an effort, even the FIA archives aren't much help. 😏

[@vitamc1213]

I love these videos, I wonder whether you could do the death of GT1 racing?

[@haydarfuel]

i'd like to see part 2 i've never heard of group s before and i would like to see the kadett

[@K1borg6773]

I subbed. This is awesome!

[@The_Big_Jay]

You are *criminally* undersubbed.

[@JackohMotors]

Big Jay Cheers brah! 👍

[@julianturberfield7101]

A bit dismissive of the Celica which, even after being overshadowed on pace was still considered THE car to have in the Safari rally due to it's incredible reliability, winning the rally 3 years in a row from 1984 to 1986.

[@ponyempiresunite9702]

I would accept a new group b/s championship. The advancements were massive, like AWD, Carbon Chassis/ Bodies, and a bunch of other stuff like fitting so much power in such a small motor. More advancements would be welcome. Hydrogen v.s. Electric v.s. Gasoline etc. would be interesting to watch.

[@hepo3544]

Jesus and I thought the group B quattro sounded intimidating, this group S version is a horror story. In a good way

[@supersonic1246]

...Thanx for uploading ... :)

[@fredschriks8554]

That 405 T16. Wat a monster!

[@ThatWolfFromHyruleGaming]

Anyone else recognize the Toyota MR2 222D from, say, Top Gear 2 on SNES? The RS200S was also in the first Top Gear without the second wing and a two tone medium blue/gray paint scheme.

[@speedymike3058]

Keep doing these videos😊👍

[@dfw_motorrad1329]

That 222D. Oh how I wish Group S was a thing just to be able to see that thing in full effect.