The Inevitability of Ritual

[@shakyraindrop]

Hi Jonathan. I don’t really have anything new to add to the comments, so I just want to stop by and thank you for everything you have done for me and for all your viewers. I’ve been watching your videos since I was 16. Now I am 18. You have helped me discover coherence and meaning in life. Thank you for everything.

[@maxonmendel5757]

are you catholic now?

[@hectorporrasortiz5009]

Brother, I would love to have a cup of coffee with you. I’m a Protestant Christian, I attend to a “No Denominational” church but I’ve been searching about Orthodoxy and it’s beautiful man. All the things you talk about are so coherent with my psyche! I think mankind has an ancient world psyche but still want modernity to fulfill their needs. Our brains still function like if we were semi nomads. Well I’m from Mexico! Keep with this channel! May God bless you!

[@OurDarkGoldenHero]

He's exactly right. Everything we do is associated with a pattern. It's why I kind of find it funny at these atheist types that clamor on about how good the world would be without religion when religion isn't what they think it is and is inevitable.

[@TheRealRealOK]

Ansem Atheists are made dumb by their worldview. Some come back to reality and join the Church.

[@jasonroberts2249]

Absolutely true. Look up the vid James Perloff Atrocities are Rituals.

[@itsokaytobeclownpilled5937]

Ansem They follow the Libtard religion. Pastor Steven Anderson made a video about it.

[@martinrivera393]

@@itsokaytobeclownpilled5937 this name calling is what is making people more atheist. Christian's sometimes see themselves so righteous that they forget were they came from. We all were sinner's before coming to Christ. Who are we to judge? We receive mercy being sinners. We all have fallen short, we all struggle to be a better person everyday. Atheist are children of God too. Our fight is not against people. We all love our kids even when they do bad things. This is the way we should love others. This is the way God love's us. Jesus loved Peter even when he denied him three times.

[@itsokaytobeclownpilled5937]

Martin Rivera Calling a spade a spade drives people to atheism. Hot damn! You win the stupid award.

[@CNArtDesign]

"If we have chosen to live against the grain, then why are we all facing the same way?" A line from The Sound of Truth, by As I Lay Dying. A metal band. Your comment about punks reminded me of this.

[@alienspacebat5218]

@@jreaganmorganchannel Exactly. When a rebellion succeeds, it becomes the new order and the old order becomes the new rebellion.

[@JonnyCrash]

Reminds me of a line from an old emo parody song from the early-2000s, "I'm an emo kid / non-conforming as can be! / you'd be non-conforming, too / if you looked just like me!"

[@pallidamors9124]

I was reminded of a goth hair salon in Sydney called "Doppelgänger"

[@billtimmons7071]

"Manifesting meaning ..." "What pattern are you manifesting?" .... "Rebellion has a ritual...". I used to dress casually in formal settings; I used to speak against convention to demonstrate my unique knowledge and special place in the universe. I thought I was demonstrating individualism. I was actually ritualizing rebellion, immaturity and foolishness. The scripture says to dress modestly and to act modestly. Maybe I should start to perform the ritual of being wise and being more aware. This is a good video because I felt guilty when I watched it.

[@mostlydead3261]

Long citation incoming, but is worth it (from Wolfgang Palaver's book on Girard): Simmel’s second example displays the anti-mimetic mimesis of fashion still more directly. He refers to the attempt to demonstrate one’s non-imitative nature by means of imitation, and terms this directly a form of “negative imitation”: 'Whoever consciously clothes or deports themselves in an unmodern manner does not attain the consequent sensation of individualization through any real individual qualification of his or her own, but rather through the mere negation of the social example. If modernity is the imitation of this social example, then the deliberate lack of modernity represents a similar imitation, yet under an inverted sign, but nonetheless one which offers no less a testimony of the power of the social tendency, which makes us dependent upon it in some positive or negative manner. The deliberately unmodern person accepts its forms just as much as does the slave to fashion, except that the unmodern person embodies it in another category; in that of negation, rather than in exaggeration. Indeed, it occasionally becomes decidedly fashionable in whole circles of a large-scale society to clothe oneself in an unmodern manner. This constitutes one of the most social-psychological complications, in which the drive for individual conspicuousness primarily remains content, first, with a mere inversion of social imitation and, secondly, for its part draws its strength again from approximation to a similarly characterized narrow circle. If a club or association of club-haters were founded, then it would not be logically more impossible and psychologically more possible than the above phenomenon.'134 Simmel’s caricature of the “club of club-haters” [Verein der Vereinsgegner] is a depiction of an all-too-modern phenomenon. For, the most vehement critics of contemporary fashion are often those who march in concert clad in “nonconformist” uniforms.

[@billtimmons7071]

@@mostlydead3261 This very good material. It seems so much is tied to symbolism and outward appearance that reflect inward being. Thank you for this quote and the insight it provides. I'm off to but anew set of jeans with out holes :)

[@Crashdown88201]

bill timmons The prophet also has a set place in Creation. By necessity and design, he needs to distance himself from the common modus operandi and embody the stranger/exception who can behold and see as if from the outside. I really think @thesymbolicworld came out to hard on the modern charismatic evangelical “tradition” in this video - not properly giving it it’s due as one of the many manifestations of the totality of Christ’s body. He has been open about his own background in this very “tradition”, and I have the feeling that he is yet unable (?) or unwilling (!) to draw positive attention to the opposite side of the coin. With all respect and deep reverence for him and the work he’s doing - but sometimes I see him falling into the same traps that he seems to be warning about. I’m writing this because, of course, there is a rebellious little devil inside of me as well. However, called fourth out of “The Shadow”, brought out in “The Light” - rightly treated and honed, this little devil has the potential to manifest it’s opposite face: as the prophet, the renegade who somehow manages to inform the collective with invaluable truth for the benefit of all. It’s all about the intentions lying behind the message, and the wisdom with which it is being delivered. That will make all the difference and decide whether it will be the devil (the fragmenting principle) or the prophet (the unifying principle) which will manifest. Wishing you the best!

[@deafanddestructiononthepis3149]

So what was Iesus ritualizing going against the current in the Roman Empire? Rebellion? Or did he see a need for an honesty that does not exist in religious culture?

[@Crashdown88201]

Deaf And Destruction Since Christ in a way embodies the totality, you will see how he integrates the decomposing processes (also; multiplying, fragmenting) into his actions and parables in a productive manner. For example He fragments, since the truth has the capacity to pull people apart (discriminate). He gathers his flock of sheep but also scatters it (sending out the 72) and by so doing extends The Kingdom Within. By scattering those who sold and bought in the temple, He made possible the union with God. And as Jonathan often remarks - and sort of an ultimate example - he cloaked Himself with death (decomposition) and by so doing ultimately integrates Death itself into Him and thereby making the Unknown Known. That’s partly why St Paul can say; “O Death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?” since that which is known no longer poses the same threat. This answer could swell into an entire postill, so I’ll stop here. Regarding his relationship to the Romans he doesn’t seem to upset them very much. It’s clearly with the Sanhedrin and the Pharisees that He’s picking a fight (passively) - as you’re suggesting.

[@risaac9663]

Jonathan, you mentioned the symbolism of the sign of the Cross. That would be a great video for personal understanding, as well as sharing with those who do not understand it (non-Orthodox)!

[@u2pacalypse]

+1

[@steffiward6224]

agreed - would love to see this video

[@juliepaine532]

Ryan Bergevin saw this today....it might get us/you thinking: In doing the sign of the Cross , we make from the Cross an altar, offering on it all our work as a sacrificial work of love. When we make the sign of the Cross on our chest, the cross will in fact carry us We ought to see the scene of the Christian having the Cross hung on his chest as the scene of Christ hung on the Cross. Every place signed with the Cross, or the place that elevates the Cross, is as the stones used by Abraham to build the place where he gave his son Isaac as a sacrifice. The Cross is the altar of the Lord. The Cross is an altar that radically changes our life, from a life of thieves to a life of priests. Selfishness is theft, and love is priesthood. Carrying the Cross is nothing but fasting. + His Eminence Metropolitan Paul of Aleppo, kidnapped and still missing in Syria

[@jair333]

This makes so much sense. I was thinking not too long ago about how informality is really the death of Romance in a relationship. Familiarity breeds contempt as they say. The Rockstar pattern is always linked to the use of substances to alter the psyche and emotional state of the individual.

[@tupd]

Hard disagree.

[@PayneMaximus]

I learned a while ago about the impossibility of erradicating fraternity rituals. Despite all the efforts from Universities to prevent them, they just keep happening. It's clear that rituals are an inherent part of our psyche, and apply to virtually everything we do.

[@fletcher9328]

I'm a muslim and honestly I can greatly appreciate Jonathan's insight as so many of these themes can be found within my own religion. Thank you

[@Varlwyll]

The one thing that all religions share is that they guard against the rot of secularism. God bless

[@lukepolster7300]

Please let us remember that we are not higher than others because we know these truths. Maybe they do not realize the rituals they partake in. It is our job, if we do recognize these rituals, to show them and pull them out of them. And to help them not out of arrogance but with humbleness

[@OriginalArtOnCommission]

That’s the temptation.

[@victorborbalima]

I love this subject. This year I began taking notes on everything I did, and how I did it, how I felt when doing it etc... So I've been noticing more and more patterns in my behaviour. The strangest one was that I noticed that I always unconsciously went to this local burger joint with the same clothes. Like I always felt like eating a burger when wearing a specific piece of clothing.

[@jyothsnavelpula3794]

10:55 brilliant observation. "Rebellion and informality has it's own pattern". Very enlightening.

[@CplFerro]

13:00 the term he's looking for is "performative contradiction".

[@EpikStorm101]

This is a great video. I'm an athiest and I see this same concept in Pagan communities. They talk about the importance and prevalence of rituals. Learning about Daoism and Confucianism in my own spirituality has also showed me the meaning of ritual.

[@erichamilton1024]

Jonathan, I think I understand a lot of what you're saying, and I agree with how you're framing ritual. Even to be informal, a punk, etc. has it's own pattern and ritual within the "meta-pattern" (I really like that word, I might use it in the future). And while I agree with you to some extent (especially with the pictured examples you gave) of this sort of extreme informality having its negative impact on worship, I think especially from a Protestant perspective, our aversion to things like vestments (though, we definitely have our own, whether it's fancy suits, or collars, or what have you) is a recognition that there is danger with formality as well. If the priest, in all his glorious vestments is supposed to represent God/Christ, and we're all looking to the priest as the center of attention-- how easy is it to begin worshiping the priest rather than the God the priest represents? Formality is taking on an image, and I agree you can't help but take on an image no matter what. But perhaps a less formal or equivalent dress from the pastor or preacher can be saying, "even though I am the center of attention, I am dressed like you, I am equivalent to you, and there is someone higher who is not me that needs your ultimate attention." I think about the angel that picks John off his feet from worship, or Peter asserting to Cornelius that he is but a man like him. I also think the enforcement of formality, at least to an extreme, is criticized in several parts of the Bible. A couple examples I think of is David dancing before the ark and being criticized by his wife Michal for not acting like a king, but a fool. I also think of prophets like Ezekiel in particular who was a priest but did very bizarre and dare I say informal acts to get his point across. And then of course you could point to John the Baptist who was strange in his way, but also Jesus who ate with sinners and tax collectors and prostitutes much to the chagrin of the more formal Pharisees. Jesus even addresses these kinds of criticisms against him and John: "John came neither eating not drinking, and they say he has a demon! The Son of Man came eating and drinking and they say, Behold a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners! Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds." (Matthew 11:18-19) What I get from this passage, and combining it with what I learned from you in this video, is that John and Jesus followed two different patterns of behavior, and they were criticized for opposite things. "John is not enough this, and Jesus is too much that." Yet, in their completely opposite representations, they both represented the meta-pattern of wisdom. A more literal translation of that last sentence is that wisdom is vindicated by her children. John and Jesus, while completely different, were both children or the produce of wisdom. Sorry for the long comment. You just spawned all sorts of ideas and connections in my head!

[@ficklebar]

Great point. I’m sure Jonathan didn’t mean to imply “there’s only one correct ritual,” though he certainly meant that the rituals should be appropriate to their contexts. I think part of our inbred aversion to ritual has to do with this chronic misalignment.

[@erichamilton1024]

@farenheit041 I did not mean to give the impression that there wasn't pastor worship in Protestant churches. Or that toning down vestments prevented it. That definitely happens. I agree.

[@juliepaine532]

farenheit041 yes. And our priests spend 90% of the service with their backs to the congregation. It’s not a show about them at all.

[@kwameadu0075]

Thank you for your comment Eric. I find there to be a lot of Protestant bashing in the comments here, which is unfortunate. Protestantism covers a wide range of different denominations, all with varying degrees of ritual and formality. The Anglican church is Protestant and look at how their ministers are clothed. But I would say that instead of Evangelicals having a disdain for ritual, the reality is that we are often times "ritually informal" as to bring glory to God and not ourselves. But ironically this has begun to turn back on our heads with the rise of the so-called "Celebrity Pastors" who dress informally to build a branding platform for themselves.

[@resumacast]

@@erichamilton1024 To be very honest the cult of a “priest” personality is away, but hugely away, more present in the Protestant/ Evangelical universe. The sacraments are more important to a traditional Christian than the priest himself.

[@jyothsnavelpula3794]

I really enjoyed this video and this had helped in changing my perspective of the ritual. Thank u Mr. Pageau.

[@jasonroberts2249]

René Guénon wrote a chapter about this exact topic in Reign of Quantity & the Signs of the Times entitled “The Illusion of ‘Ordinary Life.’” In fact all three of his critiques of the modern world (East and West, Crisis and Reign) address it.

[@dknicely1]

Really enjoy these podcast, he explains complicated issues with logic and conviction. I sometimes disagree with him, not on this issue, but he always makes me think.

[@jacobotajuelo9297]

Exactly. What people criticizing rituals really oppose is the kind of rituals that show and embody reverence before God, humility, faith, etc., proposing instead rituals of the margin, of rebellion, of the Flood. Also: I really hope you make the video on the Sign of the Cross, I kind of grasp its huge power intuitively but I would love to see its symbolic analysis (and on the difference between Orthodox and Catholic too). Thank you & keep up the good work!

[@alisaruddell3484]

This made me realize how my “off the clock” diversionary activities are rituals... they’re not informal and unscripted ways of relaxing, they’re ritualized and predictable. I usually back into them (fall into them?) unconsciously, and they don’t have a name... what’s a good word for pointless scrolling on my phone for news I don’t even care about? I need to examine and change my “acedia” rituals. Thank you, Jonathon!

[@findingsolutions198]

Addiction to overstimulation is the Word i use and i am addicted too , damn

[@eguogwuscholastica8202]

Since I found you Jonathan,its Like I found a missing part of my mind

[@danielk6878]

I was writing a paper about this many years ago. Almost the exact same thing. I was basically saying that people love ritual even the ones to say they don't

[@danielk6878]

I also have one that says all Protestants believe in confession

[@jair333]

We are all victims to the condition of being human.

[@JCSAXON]

Your work is brilliantly insightful and immensely important. These studies have always fascinated me and often been the main substance of public discourse for myself, out and about. You’ve got a cool thing going here and, perhaps most importantly, a genuinely accessible approach. All the luck in the world to ya. Thanks

[@frankblazkiewicz2636]

Rituals are something which I am becoming more aware of. It also makes me appreciate why Confucius is hard to grasp. Keep up the good work.

[@natalieastafeva4885]

I've just found your channel, thank you for your beautiful explanations!

[@deanbrown3763]

Thanks Jonathan. Evangelicals have ritual in their worship without recognizing it. Just dare doing something out of order in a traditional service, like having a prayer in a different place, or playing the piano when an organ has always been used. Or preaching past twelve noon! Yep, we cannot live without ritual, let alone worship without it.

[@jyothsnavelpula3794]

0:41 I used to think so too. This video changed my perspective.

[@deafanddestructiononthepis3149]

I don't subscribe to a particular religion, but I deeply value most of their cores. I like watching this channel. You convey a lot of information without making yourself the focus at all. It is rare to find genuine intellect sans ego in videos like this. I have watched several all the way through already. I have been into punk for a long time and even though I don't do it like most of them, it is really easy to see that many people in any category fall squarely into a pattern and I have seen it in punk to the extreme for a long time. I feel a lot of people sacrifice thier higher intelligence and existence to engage comfortably in the social one. All things work out in patterns and not just random patterns but the same patterns. We have giant buckyballs in space showing us how atoms form which is how we learned to make some incredible recent tech, like nanotubes and paint that reflects no light. The same patterns repeat throughout the cosmos. The Hebrew language is geometric even. It is structured around mathematical vocal patterns that have certain effects. Incredible stuff. Recognizing the structure and organization that holds everything together is breathtaking. If anything religion minimizes the real miracle of existence. No books I have read can quite capture the essence and awe of what is really going on. Steals my breath away every day. The reality of existence is that only an absence of miracles is strange and unusual.

[@FFMAN3]

I love your videos Jonathan. I wish I could talk as good as you do.

[@teofilogeek8307]

I grew up an Evangelical christian. We were always told that we didn't have a religion. I always found that to be so confusing. I always knew there was wrong... Deeply wrong. I am 37 now and I couldn't have had articulated why it was wrong until I started listening to Jordan Peterson 4 years ago and now to you. Thanks!

[@u2pacalypse]

I like this. I'd also enjoy hearing you speak on the symbolism of the sign of the cross, and about the meaning of fasting and prayer.

[@crownhidden]

Hey Rasta,,, this is Scooter from Honey Rock,,, its been abput 30 years since We last spoke... I'm so proud of YOU!!! I cant wait to catch up!!!

[@JonathanPageau]

I've been looking for you for years now, I even emailed Rob Ribbe to see if he had contact with you. Would love to connect. Write me through email pageaujonathan at gmail.

[@maxsiehier]

Thanks for what you do Jonathan!

[@jaku5796]

"stare at someone for 3 minutes" is nothing rude, or special in Poland. Every foreigner complain about this :D

[@MrAndre505]

I had to laugh at the thing about the punk rocker. I was part of the motorcycle club culture for several years and I used to joke about how bikers express their rejection of the status quo and their rugged individuality by all dressing alike and riding the same brand of motorcycle. 😂 Rituals are indeed inevitable.

[@mrRambleGamble]

A good example is money. Your friend buys you $14.65 meal. You don't hand them money the next day, instead you buy the next meal. That next meal might be $12.77, but your friend doesn't feel shortchanged. The value exchange is a ritual. Strict accounting is rationality that people would be offended by. Look up articles about Venmo's effect on friendships.

[@UNOwenWasMe]

Damn, I've always been the strongest proponent of such practises. I've always said "the act of paying for someone else is in itself valuable, so I don't care if I paid a bit more last time, just get me something of roughly equal value and it's all good"

[@sealevelbear]

Excellent video, thank you!

[@mo0omo]

absolutely on point

[@brennasiver3928]

On the topic of eating/communion: Eating with someone is a big deal in a lot of cultures, including those featured in the Bible. Growing up on those stories, I struggled to understand why, for example, the Jewish Christians got after Peter for eating with Cornelius. I've come to understand a profound truth: food becomes part of your body. So when you eat with another person out of the same dish (loaf, soup tureen, casserole, whatever), you're essentially agreeing to be made out of the same stuff. That's a powerful connection, and I think that's what a lot of cultures and rituals recognize. Covenants and treaties are often celebrated with a feast. Judas' betrayal is that much worse because he dipped his hand in the dish with Jesus. Rituals of hospitality, trust, and unity often involve food or drink. It's fascinating to see how powerful and universal this theme is.

[@sayetka]

Another great video!! Thank you!!

[@muadek]

Aaaah, just perfect!

[@leedufour]

Thanks Jonathan.

[@David_Brinkerhoff93]

This content is so excellent. Thank you. Could you please examine the sybolism of the 'laying on of hands?' Its sort of important in my church but im afraid i dont understand the significance well enough.

[@johannakunze3300]

The ideal of the highly open people that you can only be yourself, expressing your thruth when you do something unique

[@cademiclips]

There are rituals of social interaction, and then there are rituals of worship. Obviously we are to respect God and be even more formal with Him than we would be with any earthly king(Hebrews 12:28). But as for religious rituals-how we express our faith-we are not to "use vain repetitions as the pagans do"(Matthew 5) or revere images such as the cross(Exodus 20:4-6, Isaiah 42:8, 1 John 5:21), but live in the ways of the Lord Jesus Christ and keep His commandments(John 14:15, Rev 14:12). Worshiping God is doing His will(Matthew 5:10), and God does not want us to engage in dead works such as kissing the feet of Bishops and images, or eating a peice of bread, but living by every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God(Matthew 4:4).

[@Cenchrea23]

Jonathan Pageau; totally brilliant, so few can see what he is saying

[@oneawaymule]

He is right. Ritual happens even in movies scenes. Back to the future has a "ritual" everytime Mcfly uses his car to travel in time. Actually a good movie has "rituals" to make a time travel cool.This comes from Joseph Campbell book. A Hero with a thousand faces.

[@Ban_Usury_Worldwide]

Good vid, I appreciate your content sir. Thank you.

[@maxwellhouse1362]

merci beaucoup!!

[@PraetorClaudius]

Lots of passive ritual going on, and people don’t usually recognize that as ritual. Video, drinking, smoking, etc are mostly things we let happen to us. Active ritual is much different and feels different. I feel like Marshall McLuhan had a lot to say about this.

[@dionysis_]

Thank you Jonathan 🙏 This is very true but it is in desperate need of also discussing the pitfalls of ritualistic behaviour, namely: emotional conditioning, superstitious behaviour and thought, fanatical belief in the exclusivity of rituals of one faith as the ‘correct’ rituals, confusion between the container and the content, suitability of certain rituals for the present time etc. I hope these will also be attended to at some point. EDIT: This was answered in September Q&A kzbin.info/www/bejne/jmHVe2iIp6ZjiNU (somewhere after 30m)

[@flooblet]

legend

[@Kirbysfantotheend]

I as a Lutheran pastor enjoy your video essays greatly, both the religious/symbolistic and the commentary on popular culture. Can't wait to see your take on the sign of the cross. May your future actions be blessed by God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

[@Averageoptimized]

I love your videos. Extremely helpful for someone who is trying to figure it all out.

[@youraquainstructor3791]

I wish you would have kept going into the summation of the focus point of the casually dressed pastors/speakers. You were just getting to the meat of your point you were making and I was enjoying the conclusion of your thought. Our pastor does not have ripped jeans, but is casually dressed. As he has stated to us many times from the ¨pulpit¨ (another symbolic reference to the small table he uses instead) is we don´t come to church, we are the church coming to worship as one body as it states in Hebrews 10:25 not to forsake our own assembling together but to encourage one another. The outward appearance is not what God focuses so much on as the inward appearance of man (1 Peter 3:3-4, 1 Samuel 16:7). The Bible is also quite clear on knowing a person by their ¨fruits¨ of their faith, Matthew 7:16-20, 12:33-37, how they act according to what they believe. Another reference, is Matthew 23:25-28 where Jesus was telling the Pharisees how they may look good on the outside, but inside they were full of hypocrisy and wickedness. The point is the intentionality of why we worship. Some rituals in the church are just man made. We as humans have hijacked the formality of religiosity through incessant judging of others based on outward appearances. Same could be said of another ¨ritual¨ of mass focal congregating we all know is at graduation ceremonies where we wear the cap and gown. The flipping of the tassel, the dean passing out the diplomas, or awards in and of themselves are the very nature of ritualistic symbolism. But wearing one does not constitute wisdom. The point is one denomination interpretation of how to worship should not get in the way of why we are there to begin with. While wearing a dress or suit or pontificates robe to worship services is by ones choice, let´s make sure our hearts are clean when we do so. This thought provoking message helped me to realize why we do in fact have rituals. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Enjoy all your videos!

[@HotgrenadeOriginal]

Thank you very much. :)

[@emilsteensen7481]

Yes, please do one about the symbolism of the Cross!!!

[@RjRocker80]

Great video, I've thought this way for years and it was nice hearing another with the same view. Same thing can be said for heavy metal culture. Metal is supposed to be about freedom, doing whatever you want, being as SIC as you want, playing as loud as you want, playing as fast as you want, but as soon as you cut your hair or write a slower song, your a sellout. I've been in love with metal music since middle school back in the early 90s, but over time, I realized how much of a joke it is sometimes. They are as guilty of having an "image" just as much as pop or country artists. You go from being totally free, to I have to look like this to fit in with the rest of the metal community otherwise they will call me a sell out and poser.

[@johnmainwaring6556]

OK I get what you're saying about micro ritual in human interaction. I think the issue is transposing that obvious rule of thumb into hyper-ritual in worship. Worship that becomes regulated and habitual and seems to be a retrograde step back into Old Covenant ritualism and formality, mimicing Tabernacle and Temple, or even Roman pagan worship. This compared to the familiar intimacy that seemed to characterise the early church. There is no president in the new testament for garb, priesthood, the burning of incense for example just for starters. It would seem that after the conversion of Constantine, worship was institutionalised for the sake of state control leading to the ritualisation of everything. The history of the church over the last 500 years would seem to be a journey of escape from over-ritualism and a return to primitive familiarity.

[@don1jon]

WoW............so true, about the uniformed rebels (punks)..........it was really enjoyable, the ritual of spiking hair........hanging out with the girlfriend, drinking, smoking, being creative.........away from the original group (family, who rejected the cut of your clothes and the state of your hair)..............but then it was less enjoyable to go into town to try to be accepted by a new group (the punks, who mock the cut of your clothes and the state of your hair and also your choice of diet that might be different to the homogenous 'rebels')..............no fun to leave the food growing farm for a break, only to get bogged down in other people's politics and get called a bad person for failing to follow others' ethics! ..............oh, the folly of youth, the same for all youths and youth groups.............as we sing along to the punk bands and chant together, in uninformed uniformed unison, the words "I am an individual"..............now, in adulthood, with hindsight, we realise that we never left the school playground, the workplace being different, with the same rituals and the same hierarchies..........ah well, what's it all about? Perhaps the continuous struggle to strike Balance between the need for individual creativity and the inevitable group ritual activity.............The ritual of eating food is inevitable, perhaps we can eat something different for a change............ :)

[@Okayand33]

Its weird to sing in a church but okay to sing along at a Rock/Rap concert Touching on the patterns within informality this fad of ripped jeans are a perfect example What does the bible mean by "heart?" Is it similar to the seed? "The pharaohs heart hardened?"... the closest i get to understanding this is relating it to Lots wife turning into a pillar of salt

[@EvansEasyJapanese]

FIRST! GOOD STUFF MAN!

[@kohelet910]

it is really interesting to point out that we should consider interacting with God as with a person, and not with some abstract new-age conception. There are indeed meaningful rules and 'rituals'.

[@ethanfrye31]

So true!

[@ruslpit2615]

I don’t understand how I’m so backwards. My natural tendency was create as much ritual as I possibly could. To me more connection means more sophistication in your ritual. It’s counterintuitive to me to go against any kind of a formal structure with regard to spirituality

[@Tarnishedtail]

Is there a date set for when you will be at Saint Tikhon’s? Would love to hear you there. Please be well

[@BatEatsMoth]

Even animals have rituals. For example, when my cat wants me to pet her, she has a pattern of movement that is the same every single time. There's absolutely nothing random or chaotic about it, and the communication of affection and the desire to receive it is intentional.

[@Cyberdemon1542]

Mircea Eliade talked at great lengths about this.

[@imnotbrian]

Did he ever do a video about the sign of the cross?

[@accuset]

Do you have a video about the ritual in dating?

[@watermelontreeofknowledge8682]

It would be 95 hours long with most of it comprised of all the pitfalls and bad patterns you can fall into.

[@accuset]

@@watermelontreeofknowledge8682 I figured there may be a generic video about things that were formerly considered dating norms that are now less commonly thought of, or that the media has replaced with something else. Especially regarding sex, let's say. You can get a good few minutes on how sex was previously something very strictly after marriage, while now it's around 5th date if that "late". Or how living together now precedes marriage in many cases. I wasn't sure if he had, or could make, a generic video of a few major pattern shifts in society.

[@mybrickhead]

"Human interaction is innevitably ritualistic" Please like and subscribe!

[@street_struggle7]

Would you say an artist is someone who forgoes ritual? Or shapes ritual?

[@odinwanderer76]

Interesting!

[@Im_No_Expert_72]

Never been to an Orthodox Church. I do believe I am going to have to check it out because I really like what I'm hearing. Roman Catholic me no likey. They anathematized the gospel at the council of Trent. I'm glad orthodox has not

[@kendallburks]

Clarifying the definition of ritual would go a long way towards making this argument more compelling and interesting. It seems like the assumption is that all patterned behavior is ritualistic, which strikes me as too broad and vague. Is there a distinction between rituals, customs, manners, mores, laws, and habits? Clearly there is crossover, but are they indistinct? Wading into those murky semantic waters is one of the most useful things you can do to clarify any philosophical position, and understanding “the inevitability of ritual” is no different.

[@kendallburks]

farenheit041 listing examples is not the same as providing a definition. It’s not unhelpful, but it’s not the same thing.

[@iaxable]

Good stuff

[@synthesaurus]

Bingo!❤

[@JohnKlimakos]

I really want to try the nose picking experiment! 😅

[@pointcuration1278]

Rituals emerge from any repeated behaviour. If I am stressed out, sometimes I will write. It is not the writing that helps, but the ritual behind it. I need to turn on lights and clear off a space. I need to clear out part of my mind in order to decide what to write. It's the writing that I'm conscious of, but the sum of the activities that contribute to well-being.

[@erinberger4218]

You cannot make your way thru our societies and reach some level of mobility without participating in rituals.

[@alexandrud4987]

Rhythm is a dancer.

[@amanddaselva]

Very nice video! Greetings from Brazil.

[@Im_No_Expert_72]

I hear people speak about ' religion' with derision all the time, it is just as you say. They are always simplistic fools. They don't even know what the hell they're saying

[@julijanacvejic517]

Ha,ha finally I hear someone say that! Rebellion has a pattern,yes! It was always funny to me when I sea people who so desperately wont and try to be informal, to be different, not to fit in to any formal category, and they don't see that they end up being the same as other " rebellious" individual next to them 😃 They are some things you just can not escape from, they are common to all of us as humans. Yes we are special, because every man on this planet has unique personally, but we all share one human nature, and that makes us at the same time all different, and all the same.

[@brendantannam499]

That's a fair comment on the pervasiveness of ritual in society. I was hoping it might be a rebuttal to John Vervaeke's comment that there is no 'essence of relevance' to elevate mythos to a belief in god.

[@thenowchurch6419]

First of all, people can be overly ritualistic and people can be overly informal. Spiritual ritual can be justified rather easily. Prayer is a ritual and is seen as necessary even by the most anti-ritual people who claim to be in relationship with God. Would they claim to be in relationship with God if they never prayed to or praised God ?

[@scottlewis2579]

On the other hand, people can become a slave to the ritual. If they do the rituals that some how they are better than those who don't or do them as well

[@fakename3208]

Rebellion does have a pattern. When I was in 6th grade I used to take hair gel and give myself bed head to make it look like I “didn’t give a f***”. Every morning I did this. 🙃 Lol

[@dimitritriantafyllides682]

Jonathan, please help reinvent the video podcast ritual: Instead of being a couple of feet from the camera, with only the upper body showing with a blank background, try a full room view, sitting on a comfy chair or couch. Extra points if you don a smoking jacket and ascot.

[@Adaerus]

Right, but then there are two types of rituals. Rituals that work as described in the video and rituals that work the same as wearing your lucky socks so that you can perform better so your team will win the game. Some rituals have are motivated by imaginary consequences while others have real consequences: staring at someone. There is no clear distinction between these two types of motivations on why people abide by the religious rituals. Most people passing by a church, fore example, make the sign of the cross more of a "lucky socks" motivated ritual. A lot of religious rituals fall into the "lucky socks" category of rituals.

[@watermelontreeofknowledge8682]

But the lucky socks are just a loosely held belief in the mind of one person based on anecdotal regression analysis, not a deeply held ritual of collective consciousness derived from thousands of generations of humans guided by the hand of God. Rituals like wearing socks are about as low-resolution as it gets. Vibrant rituals like the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass cater to a whole set of complex needs of humans, some purely spiritual, some aesthetic, some sociological. Comparing the ritual of lucky socks to a grandiose and sublime ritual like the Mass is like comparing a blade of grass to the Amazon Rainforest.

[@Adaerus]

@@watermelontreeofknowledge8682 Think of the Hajj in Mecca. Do you think that is a sublime ritual or a mass "lucky socks" ritual? If it's a sublime ritual then it doesn't matter whether you are Christian or Muslim. But if Hajj is not a sublime ritual like the Mass because Islam isn't true then its the case of "everyone else's rituals are 'lucky socks' but my rituals are not.

[@allancoffee]

If the priest is David Sharpe Wood then who is the punk?

[@bobsansmal]

Is sounds like all behavior is being defined as ritual here, and I just can't see how that could be a useful definition. If you say that dressing a certain way, no matter what way that happens to be, is meaningful and ritualistic... I dunno, I'm going to have to listen to this again, but I have this nagging in the back of my head (even though I'm sympathetic to your arguments) that something is amis here..

[@HappyLittleBoozer]

Scantily in the human history was there ever a ritual that was not to some degree logical or 'natural'. Even the primitives had their reasons. After all if a disaster strikes and kills a hundred people, does it not make sense to give one person willingly in advance in hopes of satisfying the powers that be?

[@Saint_Cuthbert]

All of the perfect example pics with Carl Lentz, heh

[@itsokaytobeclownpilled5937]

Not having tattoos and not being sleezy is the new rebellion.

[@timeandattention3945]

Ritual is a way of recognizing devine hierachal order and protecting sanctity of each individual. Without ritual there is no revarance (fear of the Lord)

[@EamonBurke]

Jonathan is the guy who is telling the edgy teens that they are just conforming to their own non-conformity. He's the girl from SLC Punk who points out that punk rock attire is a uniform just like a soldier wears.

[@rochelle9243]

Perhaps you need ritual in a group of people in order to fit with each other. You can dance to the beat of your own drum, but if you aren't perceptive to the accepted rituals around you, you're gunna be lonely

[@jackthomas6974]

With head bowed and eyes downcast I humbly disagree. I fully acknowledge that you are correct that all people seek out depth and ritual I feel that there is different relationships with the same creator, now Christ is THE way, all roads do not lead to the true God I am not a universalist. Just as personal-space varies from cultures so does my rituals vary from yours not necessarily out of rebellion.

[@IndyDefense]

Having severe OCD makes me wary of ritual.

[@bright-noise]

Could you elaborate? I understand that ocd would make one resent the excessive amount of ritual they feel compelled to engage in, but are you suggesting that engaging in ritual might make people more and more dependent on it or? Just curious

[@IndyDefense]

@@bright-noise It made me see the falsehood in ritual. I've had to undergo lots of cognitive behavioral therapy to teach me that my rituals are all in my head. In researching the cause of OCD, it turns out that it operates from the same part of the brain that activates during religious rituals.

[@Bicicletasaladas]

@@IndyDefense self-imposed rituals unchecked do sound worthy of suspiscion. Rituals that we've inherited from our elders have suffered a darwinian adaptational pressure. They don't mess with most people's well-being inside your native culture.《-----my attempt at a Pageau-ian explanation à la Christmas tree

[@watermelontreeofknowledge8682]

IndyDefense so your argument against ritual is ‘it’s just psychology’? Psychology is all we got. The human mind and consciousness is the most complicated and beautiful thing in the universe. Only psychology, what else do you need?

[@bright-noise]

IndyDefense Why does the fact that the impulse is traceable to a specific part of the brain make it a falsehood? Hunger is an essential impulse to our health, traceable to specific biological mechanisms, and it can be out of whack with what’s best for our bodies in the same way, no? Someone with an eating disorder might need similar mental reinforcement that reminds them they don’t need to eat so much because their appetite impulse is just malfunctioning. But that doesn’t mean hunger is a false or illusory impulse. The fact that you’ve suffered with ocd as much as you have shows that tracing the impulse to a brain region does not provide sufficient understanding of it, otherwise it could be more easily manipulated. It’s just one layer deeper than saying it happens in your brain, which is true of everything we experience