The Injustice of Hell

Find Ryan Topping's Christmas book here: www.tanbooks.c...
Music written and generously provided by Paul Jernberg. Find out more about his work as a composer here: pauljernberg.com
Few doctrines produce as much hand wringing and wincing from Christians as the real possibility of damnation and hell for those who do not follow God. And it isn’t so much from their own fear of going to Hell, as much as it is the apparent cruelty of the doctrine as somehow incompatible with the notion of a God who is Love.
One commenter on one of my videos said “What kind of God punishes people with infinite suffering for finite decisions?” And if you do the math like that, then ya, it does seem completely unjust. If justice is like a balance of the scales, how do we account for finite crimes on one end and infinite suffering on the other?
This video is going to include some book recommendations at the end, so stay tuned for that, but before we get there, I wanted to promote my friend, Dr. Ryan Topping’s Christmas book that just came out. This video isn’t sponsored by him or his publisher, but he’s just a brilliant friend and his family has been a blessing to our family and I want that for your family too, so if you go grab his book, you’ll get a dose of that too.
It’s a handpicked Christmas compilation of stories, poems, and reflections to read with family or by yourself around the fireplace. It would, obviously, make a great gift and you can pick it up on Amazon so I’ll try to remember to include a link wherever I post this video.
I think a big part of the hangup we might have with the idea of eternal damnation is that it descends from an understanding that says that if we don’t follow all the rules that are in the Bible or accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, even if we’ve never heard of him or if we have, it came from some pretty terrible examples, then he’s going to consign us to an eternity of torment and torture.
And that just comes across as arbitrary and cruel. So yes, I get it. So this is why I think it’s important to point out that this isn’t what historic, apostolic, Christianity teaches, and to offer something with little more accuracy.
It would be better to say that God gives us a life and he creates us with faculties like reason and will and we are expected to do whatever we can to make the best use of these faculties to produce the best outcomes.

[@robertlehnert4148]

"The worship of one's self is the worship of nothing and the worship of nothing is the worship of hell". ---Thomas Merton

[@axp8598]

ghey nonsense

[@ecnicholson]

@@axp8598 No, this actually makes sense. Try using rationality and reason that God has given you, and see what they are saying.

[@adammeade2300]

AXP It’s not nonsense if you understand that God is the provision for all that exists. He is the only being that is not contingent....who has, in Himself, the quality of “being.” He is the “I AM.” Thus, to bridle your identity to anything but Him is to be chained to oblivion...to build your house on sinking sand. Did you think that you just existed as a right?! Granted by whom? The government? The laws of physics? Even physics cannot demystify the existential riddle, Ex nihilo nihil fit.

[@axp8598]

@@adammeade2300 you deserve your thumb up

[@logicallyfallacious4151]

hell isn't nothing.

[@robertlehnert4148]

"Hell is God's ultimate respect for human existence and human free will. Hell is only manned by volunteers and the door of hell is locked on the inside."---Peter Kreeft

[@robertlehnert4148]

@@hanskung3278 So, God will force people against their will to endure his explicit Presence for all Eternity?

[@robertlehnert4148]

@@hanskung3278 ok, I can certainly understand your objections. It was the Christian doctrine CS Lewis had the most problems with. But in the Sermon in the Mount, Christ himself threatens damnation at least six times. Annilation will not do. It allows the unrepentant to say, I will not serve, I will not repent! with impunity. God's Justice is equal to his Love. Hell is God saying "I respect your choice"

[@robertlehnert4148]

@@hanskung3278 the good news is there is deliverance, a Deliverer from Sin and Death. Look, you can have the crude "hell is burning a hundred Christmas trees and jumping right in the middle, you know? (George Carlin) or you can have the poetical Extreme of Dante, but ultimately hell is separation from God, a person's rejection of everything that is of God other than the only thing such a thing can love, itself. Such a thing that is left cannot be pitied, let alone regretted by anyone who has been saved. As CS Lewis put it, hell cannot claim ransom over heaven.

[@shanestrickland5006]

@@robertlehnert4148 You really need to think before you type . Because the idea of being separated from an omnipresent God is a logical contradiction. Because omnipresent means all present meaning to be present everywhere that exist . Which would also include everywhere past present and future.

[@robertlehnert4148]

@@shanestrickland5006 God is certainly omnipresent--but the damned soul will not be aware of Him-- it will be for the damned, existence without God, what it thinks it wanted.

[@culturecoroner]

There it is again! That wonderful clarity! I am sooooo thankful God gave you such a gift-and that you’re using it so well! We all benefit from it. 🤗

[@axp8598]

lol

[@Catholic-Redpilled-Spaniard]

Beautiful Catholic Women. Man oh Man.

[@g07denslicer]

6:19 “eternity is not infinite time, it’s just finality” You just found different words to describe the same thing. If the state of unimaginable torment is my final state, then I will experience unimaginable torment for infinite time.

[@jimpeschke3435]

This video, and most like it, contain countless logical fallacies and missteps. Your astute observation is a one among many. Watch some of Brian's "proof of God" videos for the next level down in illogical circular reasoning.

[@enlightenedvagabond3556]

@@jimpeschke3435 So tired of people defending ETERNAL torture because an ancient book says so. So embarrassing.

[@jimpeschke3435]

@@enlightenedvagabond3556 This whole series of videos consists of Brian using superficially valid but fallacious logic ("not infinite time, just finality" is a doosie) to explain away the countless inconsistencies in an arbitrary but fading belief system. Classic sophistry.

[@electric544]

‘Hell is where a soul has nothing in common with any other, except for the fact they hate themselves & are surrounded by those that cannot escape their own company as well’... I heard something similar & dressed that sentence up to more perfectly fit your video! GodBless you!

[@juliam2049]

@Quietude right....I feel exactly like that right now, am i in hell?

[@amask99]

@@juliam2049 Well, maybe go to confession. Maybe you need some psychological help as well. Either way, do not despair. You're alive now and you can still turn to God

[@PaulOfPeace54]

And yet our loving God has given us this gem. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1John 1:9. Thank you Jesus. xoxo Paul

[@ilynpayne7491]

God doesn't love humans

[@marcdecastella3454]

As a TLM Catholic, I am grateful for your impressive eloquence in explaining the theological rationale of eternal damnation vis a vis the mercy of God. Please continue this valuable apostolate in promoting the Catholic faith, dear brother in Christ.

[@krileayn]

Yes I know, I've been to my mother in law's place many times.

[@N2Deep00]

Not that Hell! That's another video we'll talk about later. Then we'll discuss the Hell of the DMV after that.

[@HazzTube]

From what I have read, the souls in hell do not cry out for mercy but lash out at God with anger and hatred and have zero desire to repent. So, basically, how these dammed souls lived their lives was evidence (for everyone to see) that God has imposed a just judgement on these people.

[@johnnylara7032]

Correction: "Damned", not "dammed".

[@djhallmighty]

Then why would they bow the knee and confess that Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father?

[@davidjulian8643]

The apparent horrendousness of hell has, in part, lead to a rise in universalism

[@coldforgedcowboy]

I don't think it is as much of a rise as there as always been heretics selling fire insurance outside of Catholicism and occasionally inside as well which is why Luther wrote and posted his 95 thesis on the Church door.

[@shane8037]

@Deus Vult Look at the masonic revolutions of the 18th and 19th Centuries. Why do they butcher the priests in Catholic countries (France, Mexico), but never really touch the pastors in protestant countries (America)? Really gets the old synapses firing 🤔

[@geraldineekhator5428]

Shane Etchison Well maybe because the more you suffer the closer you are to God. If you notice that in the Bible people close to Christ Jesus suffered greatly.

[@igor9204]

@Deus Vult I don't know if you're Polish but I am. And let me assure you that's a myth many inside and out want to believe. Sure, we have catholic religion classes taught in schools and all that, but the shift in societal attitudes is huge. Spare yourself the disappointment.

[@michaelflores9220]

@Off-Grid7 There are atheists opposed to transvestites in women's bathrooms too. And atheists who are not nihilists. Read Sam Harris.

[@TheXone7]

Brian Holdsworth Brian I really love the topics you chose. The come hand in hand with my conversion from custom-based catholicism to really deep faith catholicism.

[@LoveLove-jk9kz]

Here’s a quote from Orthodox theologian, Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos who summarized: “Paradise and Hell do not exist from God's point of view, but from man's. It is true that Paradise and Hell exist as two ways of life, but it is not God who created them. In the patristic tradition it is clear that there are not two ways, but God Himself is Paradise for the saints and God Himself is Hell for the sinners."

[@mrvaas876]

Yet God will cast the sinners into Hell and He held the key of Hell and Death so that all that belong there can't escape

[@CatholicK5357]

good points. Another thing to consider is that there are no truly finite decisions in our lives. What I mean by this is that every decision we make has in one way or another an eternal consequence on our souls or the souls of others. If a Christian lives a life with little merit and is still saved in the end, his eternal glory will be less rewarding than someone who devoutly served God with their whole being their entire lives. A seemingly finite sin can lead to another being led astray and be the final thread pulled before judgement comes upon them. It is similar to when people say: what does it matter if I am not hurting anyone? Such a person is only thinking of harm in the immediate material sense. We won't even know the full harm our actions cause or the good they cause until the general judgement day.

[@serak3403]

"There are people...who live in such a state" YES this is absolutely true. I am a nurse and see more people every day than I can bear who are already living in hell, not because of physical suffering, but because they've locked themselves in a mental prison of selfishness and pride. I will never forget something a wise old nurse taught me during my training: there are some people who don't want to be happy. They are committed to making themselves miserable, they dont know of any other way to be. The only solution? Turn to Christ!

[@amask99]

We should pray and offer sacrifices, preach to them so they change their minds and hearts

[@timofeinahimov5647]

Guys, please pray for Jana and her family. Her mother is in the hospital, and there is also a loan to be paid and no money for that. The situation is difficult. She is not Christian herself, nor is her family. I'm sorry if I made any mistakes or if I ruined your mood. Have a good day. God bless!

[@whiteprisms3123]

I hope Jana and her family are okay... I just saw this now

[@timofeinahimov5647]

@@whiteprisms3123 yeah, now she and her family are okay)

[@lickedcat]

God always gives us second chances, throughout our earthly lives, but eventually we reach finality.

[@jimpeschke3435]

Based on..... not a f*ing thing?

[@francisgilson4429]

@@jimpeschke3435 Why is one so angry? Do you believe that our Lord Jesus Christ judges us upon our death? What does our Mother Mary express at Fatima regarding humanity? We are supposed to repent, attend Mass and pray the Rosary. What happens when one doesn’t repent our mortal sins?

[@jimpeschke3435]

@@francisgilson4429 Who said anything about anger? I simply find it valuable to point out when someone is stating their beliefs as fact without a shred of evidence to support them. As far as your list of questions, my answer to every one of them is "I don't know". Neither do you, for that matter. You believe.

[@enlightenedvagabond3556]

finality is infinite you fool

[@djhallmighty]

So does God's mercy endure... forever? Or just for 70 years?

[@clairestevens3194]

I have heard it said that the fire of God’s love is the same in heaven, purgatory, and hell. In heaven are those people who have sought God and loved his will in this life. They have loved others for God’s sake. They have yearned to be with God , repented of their sins, and trusted in his mercy. To them, the fire of God’s love is unending delight. In purgatory are the people who loved God or have wanted to be with Him but have habitually chosen their own will so often that God’s love is painful to them. But even so they are turned toward Him and are are satisfied that their self-love is being being burned out of them so they can completely love God and accept His love. In hell are the people who didn’t love or want God during their lives on earth. They ignored goodness and destroyed innocence. Their entire selves were turned inward. They sought money, power, the acclaim of others, pleasure, and comfort. They loved other people for what people could do for them. They looked upon others as things to be used. Even at the end they refused to turn to God for mercy. For these poor persons God’s love is unending torment. They hate and turn on each other. They have made themselves unwilling and unable to accept God’s love.

[@kjstars]

Purgatory is not in the Bible.

[@mrvaas876]

@@kjstars get out of this Catholic channel, heretic

[@ninaarpolahti3582]

As orthodox I think i'll agree with you on that point. Very good subjects you rise. Thank you.

[@iain5615]

CS Lewis is a master - as he was Protestant it shows how fundamentally similar each form of Christianity is, from Protestantism through to Eastern Orthodox.

[@jonahkane7027]

An amazing video so needed in today’s society

[@jimpeschke3435]

A video about eternal torment in Hell is "so needed in today's society"? Forgive my irony, but "DAMN!"

[@enlightenedvagabond3556]

Its a pathetic excuse of logic

[@1thess523]

"injustice" of Hell 🤔, the problem with people saying hell is unjust is because they are using man's standards not God's and God's is what matters 🤷‍♂️

[@PeeedaPan]

Infinite punishment for finite crimes is unjust no matter which way you slice it. Good try though

[@djg585]

When the crime is not repented, it takes on the nature of infinity.

[@amask99]

Okay, but what if a person rejects God's Mercy? What of they'd rather stay in their sins that be with God?

[@timrichardson4018]

Putting your friend's book on my Amazon Christmas wishlist right now!

[@elizabethkirkeide2458]

Hell and the lake of fire are a painful reality to a mother who failed to evangelize her children and now watches them hate God in their philosophy and actions. Sorrow on sorrow.

[@teribrant1989]

I feel your pain, I am there too... My failure in part was due to my poor catechesis which I am trying desperately to make up for now... hopefully not too late for my kids...

[@amask99]

Please, do not despair. God loves Your children, you can still pray the rosary and the Mercy Chaplet for them and they can still repent

[@Andrea-ky9lh]

I’ve struggled with this topic. Thank you for the clarification. God bless you Brian.

[@Eichro]

considering Who we offend at every sin, our transgressions definitely can't be considered finite.

[@christelrascon4708]

Eichro I so agree with you ~

[@Artemisarrowzz]

Our transgressions are finite because we are finite. We can say Eternal hell is logical because it is against God, yet God ushers us not to use an honor system where titles or the person offended matter more than the transgression itself.

[@Eichro]

​@@Artemisarrowzz It's not about titles here, it's the value of the offended. All persons have the same dignity as our essence is the same, but God is in another order, a truly infinite order of greatness and dignity. Deep down that idea is essentially the same as Brian described, when we understand "offense" as "rejection". We're rejecting what's most good and holy and that makes us worthy of Hell and needful of redemption, which comes through the Son.

[@Artemisarrowzz]

@@Eichro Yet God made Himself human to be with us and us with Him. He sacrificed what he loved the most so we could be with Him. Do you think that an offense, because it was against Jesus or the Trinity as a whole, is more abborent to God than adultery or the murder and rape of a child? Yet time and time again Jesus showed forgiveness to sinners, even at the cross, to people who had not only rejected Him but put Him through torture, begging the Father for forgiveness because they didn't know what they were doing. And this was towards people who KNEW who Jesus himself was, many even walked alongside him once, and yet Jesus knew they were in ignorance. Because God doesn't change as He is infinite, immortal, omnipresent and omniscient, we can safely assume that to God every human who has ever sinned is, in the eyes of God, someone who is not fully aware of the fault they are commiting as even when humans were actually sinning against God Himself they deserved forgiveness and compassion in His eyes. This will NEVER change, no matter if we don't understand why He sees or does so. So to say that there are "infinite" unforgivable sins because they are against God himself is, in fact, contrary to what God himself had made clear is the Truth. And for the whole "sin is rejecting God and there is nothing to be done about it because it is voluntary rejection so they go to eternal hell because they have chosen to reject an infinite God", may I remind you that Paul was dragged, literally DRAGGED (which is the word Paul himself used in koiné greek) to faith by God Himself even when he was a murderer of christians? And it was done in a pretty spectacular fashion. God will make all believe, all in their own time, be it in this life or in the next, as the Lake of Fire is the purifying fire of God's love (Fire+brimstone or sulfur were used to purify gold in ancient times, God often appears as fire) and the Bride still calls people to come inside the city walls at the end of Revelations. And we know, because it is stated there, that all who are still outside by this point are can only be sinners.

[@matt6223]

@@Artemisarrowzz God is all about free will. And by sinning we are making a choice to reject God. God is letting sinners have the results of their free will, which is Hell.

[@sandrothenecromancer6810]

A death penalty unrepentant sinner saw his place in Hell... after 0,5 a second he wanted a priest to avoid his due.

[@michaelflores9220]

Hell as described in this video makes no sense to me. Why would someone say, "Beatific Vision? Nah. I'd rather be bored and alone forever".

[@sandrothenecromancer6810]

@@michaelflores9220 If hardened murderers begged, what chance do you have?

[@TheCitrusdude]

@@michaelflores9220 We sin constantly. Every time we sin we say nah. Hell is simply the manifestation of the logical conclusion of any sin, thus every time you sin you're picking a tiny piece of hell.

[@michaelflores9220]

@@TheCitrusdude Dude just sit down and read the Bible how can you believe such ridiculous stories?

[@TheCitrusdude]

@@michaelflores9220 How is what I said ridiculous?

[@4766376]

Brilliant perspective! Very thankful for your effort!

[@gigglegrl7405]

I think the hardest thing is when the people we love don't have faith in Christ. We love them so much and it just seems impossible that, even with their great sins, they could end up in Hell. It is so easy to forgive them and pardon them. It is a source of great fear for me and all I feel that I can do is to pray for them daily to come to faith and trust that God will work in their lives. But, especially with my parents, the time left is not so great.it is so difficult to imagine with all that they sacrificed to raise me that these good and loving acts account for nothing because of their sins and faithlessness. Logically, I understand the arguments, but emotionally, my heart breaks.

[@BrianHoldsworth]

I know the feeling well. A consolation might be found in the fact that you can be sure that God loves them infinitely more than you do and so is working towards their salvation with that same intensity. It also provides an opportunity, for you and I, to pray and sacrifice for them which can only be good for us as well.

[@cincilitigator5108]

Don’t worry Jesus never said anyone would go to hell. He preached about this life only and debunked religious nonsense. Even if you believe the rich man and Lazarus came from Jesus - it is not hell and people only go there because they are rich. Believe is grace and mercy not these church doctrines formulated to control people.

[@toninobelimussi296]

@@cincilitigator5108 Someone has not read the Gospel: actually, Jesus KEEPS SAYING "narrow is the path" and so on. And "once saved, always saved", yeah, well, it's not what Jesus says, it's what uneducated pseudo-religious people wanna think Jesus says. Big difference. Jesus has always known that most people will end up in Hell, because, well, they just don't care about where they end. Their mortal existence is everything to them and this is exactly the devil's best trump this side of eternity.

[@enlightenedvagabond3556]

@@toninobelimussi296 Sounds like a pathetic system to me. The universe is a torture subject generation device

[@toninobelimussi296]

@@enlightenedvagabond3556 Looks like your enlightenment is perfectly luciferian.

[@timrichardson4018]

Yes! This is what I came to understand on my journey out of atheism. Hell is an unjust idea if you think of it as a Supreme being arbitrarily punishing people with eternal fire for not holding the correct opinions. God is Being as such, the ultimate source of existence, and the supreme moral standard. God is also life, love, and goodness. Therefore, the more we live in obedience to God, the more we are transformed into his likeness, that is life, goodness, love, joy, peace, etc. The more we do not live in obedience to Him, the more we live for our own comforts and pleasures, momentary satisfactions lead to fundamental emptiness. This path, if followed all the way, leads to torment. And it's easy to follow that way. It's a downhill slide; it's our natural bent in our fallen nature. But God's grace is the energy we need to make the uphill climb toward heaven, which is the result of a life in accord with the nature of God. And its, of course, correct for the Bible to present heaven and hell as reward and punishment from God. Because God, as the ultimate standard of goodness, by definition, is the Judge. Any moral aim one holds is also his judge. So, the picture of a Supreme being judging, rewarding, and punishing is right. But it also represents a fundamental reality and truth, that a life lived a certain way has a natural result. As far as it being eternal, It makes perfect sense to me. The more one habiturates one's self to a mode of action, the easier it is to continue in that action. Thus, the harder it is to change. It stands to reason that if one falls into self-centeredness far enough, it becomes next to impossible to get out of it. His mind and heart become so corrupted that he loses all ability to see things any other way. Likewise with heaven. A life lived unto God eventually becomes so habitual that it becomes easier and easier to continue in it, except it's harder because our nature is corrupted and tilts toward sin. Thus, grace is needed. When we receive our new bodies in the resurrection, our entire being will be in harmony with God.

[@alwayswondering4051]

When I was little I didn't care much for the promise of heaven. As a child, the best (worst) ecclesiastical teachers I had - had me thinking a lot less about the glory of heaven, and much more about the hopeful-justified realities of hell. The animals that beat heaven into me did get me on my knees... I'd give a million heavens for one single piece of justice. Wherever thier 'heaven' was, I sure as Hell didn't want to follow them there. Now, as an adult, my bitterness has been replaced, by a Lot of confusion. Thankfully or no, I'm one of those fools Bent on the suspension of disbelief. I, to this day, am still very spiritual. And only God know's why.

[@krispalermo8133]

As to miss quote the Bible ," Those who are lukewarm will be spit from my mouth." Those who do what they do, not out of Love but out of Fear or Hate are not welcome into my Father's House. As a child back in 1980's , I had to deal with a couple of years of convert or get paddle a couple of times a week.

[@boku5192]

Finally, i have found some thoughtful and meaningful content to watch thanks.

[@jimpeschke3435]

Where? Could you post a link please?

[@boku5192]

@@jimpeschke3435 LOL be gone troll X-D

[@karolinaska6836]

I have to say, you convinced me about the reality of hell.

[@tommore3263]

Really well done and really true sir. Thankyou.

[@brewcity44panthers60]

Best explanation or conceptualization I've heard thus far.

[@legionofdecency8390]

God could have created conditions such that no one would have to be punished for eternity. Ultimately, this is all on him. He could have created people with free will and no sin. Every act of pain, horror, and torture is what he wants, because he created it. He created everything according to his plan.

[@garyleemusic]

Legion of Decency can you elaborate? It seems to me sin only exists if we have free will. And if God doesn’t exist then it logically follows that the categories of good and evil aren’t real. So to imply God is evil isn’t trying to have it both ways as far as I can see

[@legionofdecency8390]

@@garyleemusic In your theology, as I understand, Heaven is a place with free will and no sin. In the context of that, it is logical for god to create a place with free will and no sin. My point is that all the kids in third world countries starving or having parasites burying into their eyes are because god created these conditions. Because god is the source for morality, that makes this objectively good.

[@mrvaas876]

@@legionofdecency8390 yeah but humans have to elaborate with God here Sure He can made Heaven but i see that God wants humans to choose roads His(God's) road or Their(Human's) road, and we pick our own roads which then spiral down into bad acts like murdering or stealing, etc(Sinning) and we humans, too, have the ability to do good but looking at history, it seems that doing good is hard And God, seeing all the consequences of such actions and knowing that somewhere deep within us: we desire to serve something better , wants to offer a path again and again-the path that leads to Him and work on His will Hell is the final respect God gave to all humans that dont to go for His road and the ultimate tortue for those that pretend be go for His path but never actually did(causing disasters)

[@legionofdecency8390]

@@mrvaas876 That is, in a nutshell, the argument they give to 6 year olds in Sunday school. Thank you for that.

[@mrvaas876]

@@legionofdecency8390 no, all they taught in Sunday was Burn burn burn like some sort of rock band They gave out an image of Hell and one of those scary faces of Satan to say "look kids, this is Hell, don't fall into it" Unless if you believe in the Drake theory, which you seem to showed that you do, then i don't have anything to offer

[@OldSchool1947]

I have heard from a minister I admire, that our sin deserves hell because it is against an infinite God. Now THAT'S a sobering thought!I I l appreciate how you express the finality of sin, not just as an isolated act but eventually becoming habitual and ultimately a "life style."

[@hglundahl]

You know, much as I loved CSL, I prefer the position of St. Thomas - in which no matter how far you are trained in shutting yourself off from good, to your last breath, you have a chance to convert. It also involves things like purgatory, which some traditions consider false comfort for sinners. Also, the measure of evil is not "selfishness" that's Kantian (CSL had been Kantian and Hegelian prior to being Christian), but inordination of loves, creature more than Creator, ultimately. The opposite is not altruism, but loving God above all, and neighbour _as_ oneself.

[@boguslav9502]

The more philosophy i reqd and listen to the more i am drawn towards classical theism. The rest seem to have issues yet to be resolved whereas classical theism seems to be one step ahead.

[@philosophyforum4668]

If the eternity of hell is not justified by punishing a finite number of sins, maybe it is justified by punishing sins committed against an eternal/infinite God.

[@Unclenate1000]

Still very finite, especially considering god's invulnerability.

[@lyncunningham8255]

I appreciate your video. Perhaps Jonathan Edwards is on the Index, but his “Justice of God in the Damnation of Sinners” is startlingly powerful and logical. So is Chesterton’s discussion of fairy tales. Well done. Keep up the great work.

[@schabalabadingdong7805]

It horrifies me how intelligent Christians claim life would be meaningless without eternal judgement. And even more how they're fine with the idea of their fellow human beings suffering in hell forever, while claiming that their god is good. This way of thinking is not just immoral, it is disturbing.

[@matthewk2388]

Yup. Ever read David Bentley Hart's book _That_ _All_ _Shall_ _Be_ _Saved_ ?

[@djhallmighty]

I think this was a well composed video; I just have an important correction to make: Accountability doesn't have to be finalized. We can be held accountable for the lives that we live (and we should be), but there is no need to make it final in order for it to count. This also happens in our everyday lives, such as the test scores we receive and how they can serve us in future tests. This is known as a corrective form of punishment, where the punishing has a purpose to ultimately serve us despite the present pain and difficulty; the West just doesn't follow this in the justice system. In fact, the idea of the door slamming shut - since it finally came to that point for someone - is not justice at all; it can't be, because justice is never served. In other words, when will the justice of God be satisfied with hell? It is an oxymoron when such a place is infinite (or permanent, as you euphemized it in the video). Therefore, accountability is vital, but not final; what is final is the restoration of all things, which brings the justice and mercy to complete fullness within God's love and holiness. By that point, the seemingly hopeless aspect of our nature is purified overtime (explaining purgatory), and while it may be hell at first, there is quite literally no reason for it to be permanent. It's not about second chances; it's that we're designed to be with God, and God knew this when He created everything from the beginning. That's the counterintuitive part of such a message, not merely "infinite vs. finite". C.S. Lewis does have a unique understanding of hell, but it ultimately comes down to the same ultimate problem of absolute hopelessness when we should be preaching a message of hope. So with that in mind, I would suggest Lewis's mentor: George MacDonald and his Unspoken Sermons. P.S. Infinite and final have the same sort of root, which explains why the argument is an oxymoronic effort to dodge the bullet.

[@matthewalexander6792]

Jesus clearly stated the reality of hell and it's eternity. Good enough for me. He also said there would be those who do not believe, and those who will try to enter, but will not be able to. Who are these people, God knows. Maybe attending and witnessing a full-blown possession being exorcised will clarify a lot of things for a lot of people. God bless the faithful.

[@TheRealShrike]

No, he actually didn't. Hell is an Anglo Saxon word added hundreds of years later. Jesus spoke of a physical location where garbage was burned.

[@rilonius2865]

Jesus stated that hell will destroy the body and soul. To me this implies that those in hell will eventually cease to exist after a period of suffering proportional to their sins. How can a soul still suffer after being destroyed. If a soul is truly destroyed there will be no consciousness? God bless.

[@moonlightwathcer]

Very well discussed. You should have a discussion with Bishop Barron. Laudate Dominum 🙏🏻

[@philipmesquita7862]

You handled a difficult topic very well. Thank you

[@plusbonus1165]

Love your hair .

[@thoainguyen2738]

Thank you Brian. Many of my confusions about hell and “infinite” are clear now.

[@trioan3500]

Hell is the absence of God, the Absence of Peace and Love and Fulfillment Without those things, in Hell, the Ghosts of Hell may do whatever they pleased how many times they wanted but in the end when we finally look, they will realize how broken they are and realize that their soul are burning because of sins and the lack of true Fulfillment

[@michaelflores9220]

Hell as described in this video makes no sense to me. Why would someone say, "Beatific Vision? Nah. I'd rather be bored and alone forever".

[@jaydavis155]

Great way of explaining it. The "Kingdom within" may be the innate human capacity to love. People seem to prefer love for the most part. But when the self-love takes over, the 'agape' love diminishes, and the misery of the soul begins. Widows and widows have a keener sense of Hell than most, for when they lost the spouse they so deeply loved, they feel that torment of separation so much more. Sometimes the 'agape' gets perverted through subtle means that the person may not even be aware of it until its pointed out or a consequence of an action or word.

[@adastra123]

Thank you for all your videos. I need as much knowledge and good arguments as I can get. Being a catholic in Ireland where they hate us especially if , like me you mix with many in liberal arts , just by default. There is safety in numbers and they are smart and cutting. So your channel is a great. Thank you and may God bless you and all those that love you.

[@jdembroff]

I am a big fan of your videos, Brian. I always learn something, think something new. I don’t need your skills in web design, etc, but as an indirect support to you, I ordered 2 copies of your friend’s Christmas book, one to share with our daughter and her family. It looks beautiful!

[@williamfullingim7668]

I believe there are rules and obligations that exsist outside of our natural comprehension. "We see through as glass dimly..." I think with the exception of prohecy ( beyond me, but things that must occur), otherwise at some points we've turned out back on him... And not lived out or tread down his one exit that is gairanteed to all

[@MarioGabrielJ02]

It is so funny that those who are genuine Christians think that hell is fair, but those who are not Christians think the opposit👀

[@coldforgedcowboy]

@Brian Holdsworth... this is your best video yet Brian and you finally started name dropping books! Kudos!

[@ostricks1983]

CS Lewis's The Great Divorce is a must on this. Though I think Lewis was of the view that a person could choose to accept God, even in hell, but was utterly incapable of doing so. The further a person drifted away from God and therefore deeper into Hell, the more impossible it becomes for that person to cry out to God for salvation. What makes it so powerful, as you say, is that you can observe it all around you!

[@TheRealShrike]

If you can observe these people around you then go do something about it rather than pontificating.

[@ostricks1983]

@@TheRealShrike Who says I don't. It is a mere observation..

[@TheRealShrike]

@@ostricks1983 Fair enough. If we are to truly believe the Gospel though, Jesus will go find the lost sheep. He'll care as much for the lost ones as the "saved" ones. He'll go and GET the drifters back. He told at least two parables about that. (lost sheep and prodigal son). I don't think you can square those two parables with the same Jesus who wants to separate the sheep and goats. Something's gotta give, there.

[@paulg.9256]

We cannot fathom just how great the stakes are, and, we cannot grasp just how great is Eternal Life. So we question and doubt. The most sobering realization that a man will ever have is that he is inextricably and irrevocably part of God’s plan, and, that one day he will meet God face to face.. (I would like that meeting to go very well…)

[@albertfuertes2794]

Simple: God is NOT sending ANYONE to Hell, We send OURSELVES with OUR FREE decisions.

[@christhatsall8926]

@@lucasprzybyla7084 really? You really want heaven? Wow thats awesome man now u must be a christian and live a life with christ being sanctified by his work 😄 But if you dont want that, you choose hell

[@AveChristusRex]

Impeccable analysis.

[@jimpeschke3435]

Depressing analysis. Do they not teach logic anymore?

[@AveChristusRex]

@@jimpeschke3435 Go on, where's the problem in the logic.

[@jimpeschke3435]

@@AveChristusRex I'm not going to write a point-by-point rebuttal. Suffice it to say there is plenty wrong here, much of which has been covered by other posters, such as the fallacious distinction between infinite time and permanence. Far greater men than Brian have tried to whitewash the problem of hell and have failed to do so. Its not an indictment of Brian that he did not succeed; the problem is far beyond his capability to address. But the adulation poured out from the weak-minded upon viewing this sophistry is really disturbing. Nothing would please me more than to read intelligent, engaging treatment of these topics (to his credit, Brian does often choose excellent topics). In this case, as for many of the videos, the smartest, most imaginative comments tend to come from the contrarians, not the sycophants.

[@AveChristusRex]

@@jimpeschke3435 Since I can't remember the specifics of the video, and to what you're referring to exactly, I would only say that if we believe in a real free will, hell is necessary ipso facto, i.e. based on that fact alone. Anything less is curtailing all wills so that all are in fact good wills, so that only reward is possible. Which is not free will. The rest of it, i.e. its eternality and so forth, might be simply that we can't fathom cosmic/divine/perfect justice by its nature, man or angel, because it's on a whole other level to the way we rationalize. Also, maybe part of punishment for people of bad will is the very fact of not being able to comprehend how or that their punishment is objectively just? It's not so much as a problem as it is uncomfortable to speak about, since it's too easily compared with anthropomorphized though inaccurate conceptions, and the susceptability of man to imagine eternity as a whole in its infinitude, instead of per the only unit percievable directly, namely, the present: everyone in hell is as far from beginning their sentence as they are from ending it: namely, they live presently - but always - in the perfectly just state given their moral choices. Saying it's eternal is just saying it's perfectly just, and neither was decificient in its severity, nor excessively severe, but perfectly just.

[@jimpeschke3435]

@@AveChristusRex Congratulations. You've graduated to the school of sophistry. Your last sentence is a particular doozie.

[@5BBassist4Christ]

This was very well articulated. All your points were clearly described and followed logically to the end conclusion.

[@doon5061]

@Thoreau big brain moment!

[@michaelflores9220]

The existence of Hell would make creation a piece of junk with no real value, something that ought never to have existed in the first place. If Christians were right, reality would be truly an awful, not beautiful, place.

[@djg585]

Not if you go to heaven, as God desires.

[@jimpeschke3435]

Well said. Who are these people who get their jollies from the prospect of billions of human souls suffering unspeakable horrors for all eternity?

[@eddiekarlsson967]

excellently worded Brian, god bless.

[@kbyrnenc]

I would refuse eternal life any day if it was coming from someone saying eternal pain is a just punishment for any mortal crime, on top of that who thinks eternal happiness is a worthy reward for any mortal good doing

[@amask99]

Eternal happiness is not a just reward. If it was, Christ wouldn't have died for us. Sorry you feel that way. I also stuggle with the doctrine of hell, but the fact that God loves all people and wants to save everyone is also true. I hope you'll change your mind

[@sparrowsparrow4197]

also "hope beyond hell" by gerry beauchemin it is a thorough bible study on our savior who promised to save all not some lost sheep

[@A.S2400]

I still get his weekly meeting on zoom notifications. I like tent maker. But I still am not solidly convinced to either side.

[@ghallora]

Very well put brother. You have a good way of breaking things down and explaining them in a way that is easy to comprehend.

[@supercalifragic1551]

Do you have written scripts somewhere, or transcripts, anywhere? I may not be catholic or even believe in the typical concept of hell, but you've got a lot of good points that make good quotes in here and a transcript would make quoting a lot easier.

[@BrianHoldsworth]

Yes. Try this: www.dropbox.com/s/2t6q1mv1ydfq1ka/script.txt?dl=0

[@antoniusrusticus383]

Very thoughtful, thank you. If I correctly remember St Anselm, in "Why the God-Man," looks at sin feudally; the offense is actually infinite because it offends the honor of the infinite Lord of all. Your view of finality is another good way to approach this mystery. Thank you again.

[@TheHellProject]

This is probably the best framing of the infinite vs finite argument I've heard. It has made me ponder 🤔. I'd also be interested in hearing how you relate this to scripture, and what weight you put on it. If you'd ever be interested in a streamed friendly conversation between a Protestant and a Catholic (and across the Atlantic) about hell let me know!

[@enlightenedvagabond3556]

its dumb semantics and if you had a brain you'd know that

[@Oswlek]

8:00 - There are so many problems here. First off, this is just an appeal to consequences which, as I'm sure you know, makes the whole argument null and void. No matter how disappointed we may be that some good deeds go unnoticed and some bad deeds go unpunished, reality is under no obligation to conform to our desires. Even though this means the argument is DOA, the problems don't end there. "Ultimate meaning" may require ultimate consequences, but plain ol' meaning clearly doesn't, and you weren't careful to avoid conflating the two. Surely someone can find personal meaning in things even in the absence of an ultimate accounting, no? Then there's the issue that there _is_ an end date: our death. No one will be there to tally the good we've done vs the harm we've caused, but it's still the end. And the fleeting and temporary nature of our lives only makes things _more_ meaningful, not less. That's why real flowers are more precious and valuable than plastic ones. And it's why no one ever argued that a song is only meaningful to the listener if it lasts forever. Sure, one day the universe will experience heat death, and it will matter not at that point what life you or I lived. Imagine though that you found out tomorrow that there is nothing after that, it is truly the very end of reality itself. Would this make you care any less for your kids? Would it make you feel less joy when doing something nice for a good friend? I suspect not.

[@Oswlek]

Interestingly, the game analogy actually exposes all the problems with your argument if you follow it through a little further. Sure, there is no final tally at the end, but that has no say over how much my snaps mean to me during my limited playing time. Nor does it limit the ability of others to judge how well I performed and what kind of influence I have over the next generation. Moreover, not every bad play gets punished and great individual efforts can often be overlooked if other stuff is going on.

[@icouch]

that which can be asserted without evidence, can also be dismissed without evidence

[@OrbitRex6215]

Thanks for tour video. I really like your explanation of how good transcends! Padre Fortea (a Spaniard exorcist priest and historian ) has a great explanation of hell, purgatory and heaven in his YT videos and writings, much in line with yours. Kind regards from Nicaragua !

[@st.michaelthearchangel7774]

Blessed Mother This video is GOLDEN!!! We can also argue that there is an injustice toward heaven: we don’t deserve it in any way, yet God still allows us to eventually be there for eternity.

[@johnedwards4394]

The case of Pharoah refusing to repent after God worked miracles through Moses, specifically the miracle of creating life from dust, which the devil can't do through Pharoah's sorcerers, God eventually gave him up to his own choices.

[@TheJoelak]

The idea of hell being closed off and self-interested hit home for me, I knew I was in trouble, but not this much. I suppose the misanthropy and isolation will have to be overcome at some point. Thanks

[@lucybird1405]

Could you possibly do a video on books you recommend for catholics? I think that would be so great and helpful!

[@williamanderson93]

Barthelemy The Bible can be misinterpreted and scripture is thrown around without knowing it’s meaning. While the Bible is the best book to read and understand, it is hard to fully understand it on our own, we will need other sources (like the Catechism) not to tell us how to interpret it, but to help us along the way of our own understanding.

[@ethan9841]

Mere Christianity by CS lewis is a great book.

[@glenpeters1768]

C.S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia-book 7 when they are walking toward Aslan Land reflects closely what is proposed in this video. The great thing about the message in that Narnia episode is that it's rendered in such a simple but obvious way.

[@EdwardMandellHouse]

"Isn't god a god of mercy" "Yes, but" - Stop and rethink, if you're saying yes but, to that. What followed didn't make sense.

[@aclk1520]

EdwardMandellHouse you only partly said what God is- that’s not the full truth. God is a God of Just. God is Love. God is Truth. God is Holy. All love, all goodness, all holiness comes from Him. If the truth is that you didn’t want to be with Him.. be like Him in spirit.. living the way of goodness and holiness.. that’s your free will and He will not like it, but that’s what you chose and what you wanted. He’s not going to force you like a dictatorship, communist, totalitarian, authoritarian, socialist, etc. -all these have no love. It would unjust for Him to force you to go where you didn’t want- you didn’t want holiness, goodness, love ..

[@johnwachowicz1966]

Mercy is a loosening of the demands of justice. To say that God is merciful is to implicitly say that He is just.

[@marcokite]

it makes perfect sense...this is too big an issue for just 'yes' or 'no' because EXPLANATION is needed. stop and think what you're saying Edward

[@evelynbyrd4961]

Gehenna is not a place. It is an existence. You DO NOT want to go there. Amen.

[@alancollins8294]

Is a finite crime met with 900 years of hellish torture moral? How about a billion? You could keep asking yourself endlessly, increasing the number every time, until you no longer deem it moral. That's the problem that needs answering.

[@KittysDawn]

What people don't get is God doesn't make mistakes. Here's a bitter pill to swallow. Christ said even many who cry LORD LORD will be told by God that he didn't know them. People get itchy over the prospect cause they don't understand the criteria God uses in the first place. Just going to a church, or even a specific one, isn't enough. You have to look to the sacrificed lamb. You have to submit to the strong shepherd. That means something deep, and God knows his children already. Absolutely. God has already set every piece needed to be sure everyone has every chance required to truly prove that one way or another, and only the individual can truly account for that. The dramatic example I keep hearing is don't be shocked if you even see someone like Hitler in heaven one day while walking down it's gold streets. Maybe you'll be the man who's works burned up but escaped the fire unharmed, but you'll get every last chance to prove it. Even in the very last moments. Everyone will be brought to a moment where they either curse God or cry out for Him with finality. Even if it's mere moments before death. We are to spread the message as part of giving these chances, but don't doubt God's ability to grant them one way or another. Everyone who can hear will hear. And by long roads or painful ones come to God's side if they can. When every chance is used up, there is no mistake. No "maybe you could have if only...". God doesn't make mistakes. God doesn't play with dice. And when everyone has their body of dust removed and the truth underneath unmasked, everyone else will see it like God does. I can only imagine all sympathy for sons of the devil will dry up in an instant at that time. Though for now, anyone reading this keep in mind we are told we cannot know who is who and not to judge. Love even your enemy, for even the pagans know to prefer their own.

[@famvids9627]

St. Isaac of Syria has a unique take. He says that hell is less of a special material place and more so a spiritual condition of the soul. He did not say that hell was a literal place. He also denied the idea that God's love was not with the people who were essentially "in hell" as it were. Rather he believed that Gods love was everywhere and that the people tormented in hell were tormented by the pains of love. The pains of knowing that they have rejected God in spite of his love for them. He said that hell is the pain that comes from remorse ar the idea that you have loved a dear friend. He related this to a friend that you might have wronged and at the very sight of them in public, even if they never see you, is like hot coals over your head. Numerous saints have said that hell is locked from the inside. I mean seriously does it make any sense that God would allow someone to go to heaven if they would be miserable there. For some people, heaven with all of it's goodness would be hell... or torment. If your version of heaven is playing video games 24 hours A-day don't think that that wouldn't be my grandfather's hell. Of the saints who believed that it was a literal place, some of them believed that it was not permanent and that God would one day liberate it. Bishop Robert Barron got a lot of criticism when he said that we should have a reasonable optimism that everyone will be saved from the hellfire. What people don't realize is that he was actually quoting Saint Catherine of Sienna who actually said to God that she wanted to be the block that kept people from passing through the gates of h***.

[@Igtttu]

Good analogies and good resource recommendations. The Church also teaches that, as God is infinite, any offense committed against Him would require infinite reparation (compensation), which is impossible for us - but possible through Jesus Christ Our Lord. Because as True God and True Man, He, and only He, could provide the infinite and perfect reparation necessary for all sin, for all time. It is for us to accept this and avail ourselves of it. Christ also, in his mercy, left the Holy Catholic Church as the only and most efficacious means to achieve this, through the Sacraments - Holy Eucharist and Communion, Baptism, Confession, Confirmation, Holy Orders, Anointing of Sick, and Marriage.

[@christopherton]

Hell is a CHOICE God offers eternal life Don’t want it ? Hell is the other option. A place without His love. A place of regret Not rocket science OUR CHOICE. HEAVEN OR HELL.

[@christelrascon4708]

Most brilliant explanation I’ve ever heard ~ but of course ~ Thomas á Kempis, CS LEWIS, Thomas Aquinas....... should be required reading for all who are serious about living this faith in-depth ~

[@shane8037]

I don't understand why nominal Catholics shill C.S. Lewis so hard. Not that a broken clock can't be right twice a day, but he was obstinate to his deathbed in rejecting the one true Church. I'm really hesitant to read anyone like that as if he's some legitimate authority.

[@michaelflores9220]

I've read CS Lewis' The Problem of Pain. No rational adult can be satisfied with it.

[@attyrustico]

Our desire to go to heaven only makes us create our own version of hell. God is love. We are all in a journey back to Him. Its all about how you perceive the world.

[@valentin_bunin]

Just subscribed to your channel. Love it)

[@electric544]

GodBless you Brian. I’ve loved listening to your videos & it was very enlightening to hear how you came to understand how the mass should be either sung or at least accompanied by hymns during liturgy. I do prefer Latin High Mass with accompanying Gregorian Chant! It is absolutely mystical & deeply religious! GodBless you!

[@thomasmichael6509]

There actually is a real injustice with Hell. According to Saint Thomas Aquinas, the damned don't suffer as much as they deserve to suffer, and they know it.

[@ronaldskeet9880]

Hi Is that the same Saint Thomas Aquinas who said of the "jew" how can anyone murder their own god only an inhuman monster possibly in the service of Satan. I will admit maybe not word for word accurate but the meat of his proclamation. This and many other statements from the Christian Church have lead to the hatred the jew endure to this day.

[@clairestevens3194]

Ronald Skeet No Christian should hate Jews. Jesus was born a Jew from a Jewish mother. Jesus wasn’t “ killed by the Jews” but by the Romans at the instigation of some Jewish leaders. On the other hand ALL Jesus earliest followers were Jewish. Many of the prayers of the Mass are based on Jewish prayers. Anti Semitism is an evil

[@rilonius2865]

Claire Stevens No Christian should hate Jews on racial basis. However, they should hate their Talmud and their beliefs and practices from it.

[@ronaldskeet9880]

@@clairestevens3194 I agree anti semitism is evil and was for over 1000 years the official doctrine of the Catholic Church, which did not stop blaming all Jews (including children) for murdering Christ until the early 1960s (I think vatican 2). The protestant Church also hated the Jews. Hitler( a catholic) and the mostly Christian organisation the SS claimed to be carrying out the holocaust in the name of Christianity. I am not sure where in the Bible it says the Jews took responsibility (along with their children) for the death of christ (Matthew I think). This verse in the bible lead to 2000 years of persecution of the Jews. Please read the history of hatred of the Jews. I look forward to hearing from you.

[@clairestevens3194]

My body is ready Why should Christians hate the Talmud?

[@Lu3305]

You are incredibly well-spoken!

[@ShoJ369]

It would be great to hear about true Contrition, and the Forgiveness of brings !

[@ninaarpolahti3582]

Yes but still we must have hope for Lord's forgiveness. Before dying still must ask Him of being forgiving. St. Nikodimus

[@johnneiberd]

Infinite God, infinite offence. Simple.

[@DennisNedryisStillAlive]

Yeah, I was looking for this comment. If an infinite being created creatures destined for eternity than our sins against that same being are greater than finite crimes.

[@johnneiberd]

All anyone needs to do is seek out a parish infected with the least degree of modernism, attend the TLM and get a copy of the Catechism of the Council of Trent and there will be no confusion among the faithful. I understand though it is very difficult to find Mass centres and religious who deliver the faith to the faithful undefiled, which is why I attend the Society of St. Pius X, an order which has remained faithful and continues what the Church has always done, I.e save souls, there is no modernism nor confusion among SSPX congregations. Ye shall know them by their fruits.

[@AnaLu07]

I was created as a christian and just now as 18 i'm finally understanding many things... I would always fear i would go to hell,because of many bad things i do everyday and that will kill me inside...Just made me felt like the worst person ever and that i desearved hell... But those days,the Holy Spirit guided me and made me read the book of Romans,and i just found out that simply because i believe in Jesus,i'm already saved and that "not even death,nor life,not angels [...] can take us apart from the love of God,who is in Christ Jesus,our Lord"(Romans 8:38-39)... That's releaving...And makes me feel much better!!!

[@andrewsheedy4513]

As long as you are faithful to Christ, you will be saved. But you have to continue to love him your whole life! You have been redeemed, but not yet saved

[@AnaLu07]

@@andrewsheedy4513 Sure!!!I'll love Jesus to the day i die!!!🙏

[@andrewsheedy4513]

@@AnaLu07 That's great! God bless you :)

[@AnaLu07]

@@andrewsheedy4513 Amen!!God bless you too!!!And happy holidays!!

[@rachelpops9239]

Brian I love your videos! Thank you for taking deep dives into complex matters of faith. I have one piece of criticism on the intro. The music and effects are great but your walk into the camera seems awkward. Maybe a montage of images of you talking or catholic images would fit better. This is just a personal opinion that I hope doesn't offend. Keep up the fight in this spiritual battle noble Knight!

[@marcusthomas3921]

@Brian Holdsworth "Infinity isn't a measure of quantity... And the reason we know this is because you can't add or subtract anything to infinity. What's infinity plus one? ...it's not effected by it. But you can do that with finite quantities". This might be the worst argument I've ever heard. If you actually know something about number theory/limits/infinities, I'd love to hear it - specifically what does the word infinity mean to you? Infinities *can* be compared to finite numbers *and* to other infinities - for example the set of integers {1,2,3,...} is smaller than the set of real numbers between 0 and 1 in a very precise and well understood way even though both sets are infinite in size. The problem of infinite punishment for finite sins remains.

[@bogdanzawadzki6671]

Infinity in the theological context means that time doesn't exist in the next world - there is just the eternal "present".

[@marcusthomas3921]

@@bogdanzawadzki6671 for centuries philosophers and theologians struggled with the concept of infinity. But then in the late 1800s mathematicians (Dedekind, Cantor, etc) completely solved all the conceptual issues. A monumental achievement that's underappreciated probably because it's so difficult to understand. It could be that time isn't fundamental and need not exist, but it really is just confusion to connect that idea to alternate versions of infinity.

[@adamost4831]

The problem with this argument is that you’re saying good people can go to heaven. That’s nonsense. Without faith in God they cannot

[@djg585]

We can hope for the salvation of those who adhere to natural law and have not maliciously rejected Christ.

[@magisterhpp]

If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than to have two hands and two feet and be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

[@rowdysmoke1466]

Here is a mathematical opposition. Any number divided by infinity is practically 0. Infinity next to any finite number makes that practically 0.

[@fulcrumpoint]

Logical fallacies are required to pretend to reconcile the impossible to reconcile. Just as you used to pretend that infinite cannot be compared to finite. Doesn't work.

[@enlightenedvagabond3556]

none of this justifies eternal torture. Try again.

[@elberthardy961]

The wages of sin is death, not eternal life in a hot place. Jeremiah 51:39 and 57 says: 'And while they lie inflamed with all their wine, I will prepare a different kind of feast for them. I will make them drink until they fall asleep, and they will never wake up again,” says the LORD.' Here God is speaking about the people of Babylon's fate.It is permanent and perpetual death. They are not alive and will never be resurrected back to life. God himself signs his name to this in both verses. This is the second death mentioned in Revelation 20. It is not eternal life.