The Life and Times of the Immersive Sim

[@Robert399]

It's a shame Square Enix don't have the self-awareness to realise that it was the bad publicity from the microtransactions, chopping the game in half and that "Augment Your Preorder" horse shit that made Mankind Divided fail. It's like a restaurant owner pissing in all the meals then saying the chef wasn't good enough when customers complain.

[@Orange_Swirl]

I laughed.

[@alecchristiaen4856]

I think you'll find it continuously in media that products get the blame shifted and follow-ups are cancelled. Think of stuff like the Treasure Planet film (a genuinely good story with an awesome aesthetic) that never got any follow-up due to financial failure, even tho the film seemed to be set up to fail (awful trailers, timed to compete with stuff like Harry Potter etc..). A big issue I noticed in gaming is that the people who decide what games look like, and the people who feel passionate about games, aren't the same people. In AAA circles, corporate figures probably have a checklist of easily implemented or lucrative features to put into a game, based on successes from the recent past. Everytime a game turns out great, the backstory's usually "the publisher left the devs to do their thing". The upcoming Baldur's Gate 3 is shaping up to be a slam-dunk (I really hope they stick the landing), and it's in development by an independent development studio (Larian, which has experience within the genre through their Divinity games). When you watch their Panel From Hell (a streamed talk they have to discuss big updates), you get the genuine feeling that the people working on it and making the creative decisions are people who genuinely care about their game. CEO and founder Swen Vincke even at one point remarked the studio's vison for BG3 was too big, and they either had to rise to this level, or bring the game down to theirs; he remarks that had he chosen the latter, his studio would've rebelled. Whenever the passionate and talented people are left to do what they do best, games flourish, but under the oppressive capitalism of AAA shareholders trying to make as much money as quickly as possibly with blatant disregard for the delivered product, the industry stagnates, the games will fail, and creative freedom dies.

[@OB.x]

I feel that's not 100% true. (the pre-order stuff is though). I think what happened is Deus ex MD was supposed to be 2 games, but it was rushed, so they cut it in half? idk.

[@oddluck4180]

I just considered these stealth games with depth. Never knew they had an official genre.

[@RickJaeger]

I don't think it _is_ a genre. It's more of a design philosophy, one that _feels_ like a genre, because only a handful of studios have tried to implement it so persistently.

[@apictureoffunction]

I mean stealth doesn't even have to be a factor, it's just usually included in the genre because it adds to the list of options at your disposal.

[@actionhanz3420]

damn i never knew you could save paul! as the saying goes ... when someone mentions deus ex somewhere somebody is reinstalling it...

[@MrSamadolfo]

🙂 yup its on my list of things to play

[@subprogram32]

I really like this video, I never knew that Ultima Underworld even existed, nor what significance it had upon the gaming world. Furthermore, I feel your discussion of why the immersive sims of today are going the way of their ancestors is very important - not just the technical and financial risks, but also because all but one of those games are trapped within a single development 'bloodline' without sufficiant interbreeding with new and different genres. As you basically said in the end, for Immersive Sims to ever become more than a brief rise and fall from grace in a repeating cycle, they have to transcend their very origins and allow for the destruction of parts of itself, in the same way that Roguelikes did to progress into the future.

[@sanguin3]

I think that's exactly what the Bioshock series did and as a result, it sold very well.

[@cloralee-kwong6294]

really short-changing Prey here in terms you game mechanics it introduced, namely being able to deconstruct every object, shapeshifting for navigation, and dart gun to press buttons / switches.

[@itshunni8346]

Farenheit 451 is a dytopian novel, most immerise games are dystopian. Thats all the connection is.

[@lleon79]

I don't agree with the Prey part. I think it really is a great game that although pays enough homage to System Shock, it gets away with a lot of great things and innovates within the genre. I also don't think Hitman really qualifies as an immersive sim but it does incorporate a lot of the design principles. I agree, however, that these games need to push it beyond what's already been established. I think we have enough reasons to believe that Arkane's next game, Deathloop, is going to be another immersive sim, and I'm really excited to see what it bring to the table.

[@hakubiichiro3300]

What about hitman would you say doesn't fully qualify it as an immersive Sim?

[@larsbjrnson3101]

​@@hakubiichiro3300It’s not in first person.

[@sonofsisyphus5742]

I think you skipped Arx Fatalis and Dark Messiah for Arkane

[@C0C0L0QUIN]

Dark Messiah is as much as inmersive sim as Half Life 2. Yeah, there is a lot you can do with physics in the game, but in the end you are just progressing on mostly linear levels killing everything in your way. Not that is bad thing. Both those game are amazing.

[@FirstnameLastname-py3bc]

Arx Fatalis however is an Immersive Sim, and it's quite great game too to be honest. Unpolished, bad graphics etc, but mood and immersion into game is overwhelming.

[@Phasma_Tacitus]

Arx Fatalis is probably one of the best Immersive Sims to be made, I'm playing it at the moment and it just nails down so many things

[@bechtholdillustrator9378]

Wanted to write the same,thanks ! Its sad that Arx is so unerrated

[@monishvj5172]

@@bechtholdillustrator9378 man the entilre Immersive sim genre is underrated. 75% of gamers dont even know it exist.

[@MrMarkT007]

SHALL WE GATHER FOR WHISKEY AND CIGARS TONIGHT?

[@SwoobatFanatic]

Never doubt it

[@EnvyOmicron]

Chances are very good

[@LotusGramarye]

I don't have much to say that hasn't already been said in other comments, but here we go. I appreciate the brevity of the video and how concisely you pack all of the subjects you discuss. This is a sub-genre of video game that can be dissected finely and strung out into hours of discussion so a video essay that's in the ballpark of 15 minutes is something I appreciate. Although I disagree with your assessment that Prey suffers from staying too true to its predecessors, I do agree with your overall point that future games need to distance themselves from it to avoid stagnation. Given that there's an actual System Shock 3 in the works, I wonder if it will be one to do so. That would be amusing. My only real disappointment was the complete lack of any mention of Arx Fatalis, my personal favorite immersive sim (although I guess you could argue that it falls more into the action RPG category). No one ever seems to talk about that game. :(

[@FirstnameLastname-py3bc]

Immersive Sim is an approach to game design so to speak rather than a genre. "Immersion using simulations" would be nice description, why? The more player feels belonging into the things in game (i.e "as if it's not a game") the more it is a immersive sim basically. And ARX does it pretty well.

[@Phasma_Tacitus]

Well, Arx Fatalis was actually meant to be Ultima Underworld 3, damn me if it isn't an Immersive Sim

[@Grandmaster-Kush]

I've still to play Arx Fatalis, it looks sweet tough!

[@trblemayker5157]

Well, Cyberpunk 2077's going to be an immersive sim as well. Hopefully it'll revitalize the genre.

[@monishvj5172]

it can be an immersive RPG like kingdomecome deliverance. not sure if it could be an immersive sim cause they havnt shown emmergent gameplay with playerchoices and the world changes drastically by your actions.(if is not going to be an immersive sim mean it is not going to be a bad game, CD projerct red has not experience with immersive sim genre like Arkane and Eidos montreal. I am not going to day dream about cyberpunk 2077 as an immersive sim. but it could be a ground breaking game)

[@MrSamadolfo]

🙂 i still need to get to the Witcher series 1 2 3 😝

[@arsmolinarc2881]

@@monishvj5172 Revitalize? Play Arkane's games: Dishonored is a better thief and Prey is basically System Shock 3. All in all, it's a good time for the immersive sim apparently with both the System Shock remake and System Shock 3 taken over by Tencent and with godfathers Warren Spector and Paul Neurath leading; Cyberpunk 2077 is not announced as such but it's design decisions put it in the same field; and whatever Arkane is working on (Deathloop, and other projects apparently). Forgot Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines 2! Good times coming.

[@monishvj5172]

@@arsmolinarc2881 I already know the thing you mentioned and I think you are replying to wrong person, because I never mentioned cyberpunk revive immersive sims 😂. My thoughts are cyberpunk has some elements that make immersive sims but we can't say anything until we saw solid amount of gameplay . Yeah hyped for Deathloop aswell, following it since it revealed in E3 2019.

[@monishvj5172]

@holybagpipes actually c2077 is the first full blown rpg game that CDPR is making(not witcher 3, it is rpg lite) and I hope they carry and stay true to big open world RPG. Because there are already solid amount of studios developing immersive sim than CDPR.

[@penttikoivuniemi2146]

That Paul-section is amazing in theory. It's just a damn shame how it's actually incorporated, with nothing but the door you use to leave the hotel having any effect on anything. I have played through the game twice, and both times I saved him. Or thought I did, because I killed the bad boys coming after him. However, the game always treated him as having died, which confused me to hell and back, so after finishing the second playthrough I did some research and found out that leaving through the window kills him. And of course I would leave through the window since that's the route I always used to go to his room and back out.

[@lvkeyne]

". . . leave behind neuromods and 0451s. . . " Never. :C

[@ketrub]

i mean it's that or the death of the genre, so

[@MrSamadolfo]

😒👍 Right! Keep It Old School 😒👍

[@adams13245]

0451 is just a number. Neuromods on the otherhand are central to this genre. Dishonored and the Outsider's mark, Thief and its arrows, SS and its psychic powers and gadgets are all about giving the player freedom. Allowing you to really mess around with physics and come up with all sorts of crazy solutions. Sure, it's theoretically possible to make a 100% realistic immersive sim, but that massively limits the options this genre is built upon. And it isn't anymore inherently better, because- guess what?- all video games have magic. Real life people don't take a bullet in their chest point blank, go behind some cover and wait for said massive hole to stitch itself together. Real life doesn't allow you to set points you can travel through time if something bad happens and redo. I hate this arrogant idea that worlds with shapeshifting aliens, medieval women with goat legs and freaking time stopping assassins should be realistic. And then, of course when the work has magic coming out of its ears, the realism hucksters move the goalposts and say "It's realistic for the setting."

[@gamingmechanoid9927]

To be fair, Prey is also part of this genre and Arkane did a pretty good job with it. System Shock 2 remake is under development and System Shock 3 is being worked on. Also, IO Interactive are working on bringing us a new HITMAN game. So that's pretty healthy for a niche genre.

[@nomercy8989]

I'm pretty sure it's a System Shock 1 remake

[@MrSamadolfo]

😏👍 Sweet!

[@jerrodshack7610]

I think Prey completely hit it out of the park. Incredible game.

[@victormeas7898]

I'm seeing alot of 451 speculation here, I remember Warren Spector saying in an interview they just used it everywhere because 0451 was the code to get into the Looking Glass offices in Massachussets at the time.

[@Cuiasodo]

Credit where it's due, I feel like Prey did a better job at having deeply morally ambiguous choices than any game I've played in the last...well, ever. I realize that's not necessarily the hallmark of a good immersive sim or even a good game, but I appreciate that the game put choices in front of me that had me question if what I was doing was right, even when I went down the typical good guy "save everyone" path.

[@ThePuzzleExpert]

One thing to note here is that Immersive Sim has never been a genre of its own. System Shock was an action RPG, Thief was a stealth game, and Deus Ex was a hybrid of the two. And Deus Ex in specific (the original that is) is a cult classic not for its game design but for its narrative and themes. Maybe what fans of Deus Ex and System Shock wanted wasn't a new immersive sim, but a new western RPG.

[@Chromodar]

And yet, Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines only sold 80k copies :(

[@timothymclean]

I think it would be more precise to say that immersive sims are somewhere around the intersection of action RPGs, stealth games, etc, with a semi-specific set of design principles and narrative themes connecting them as much as anything else. Genres are...blurry.

[@WastelandSeven]

Very astute observation. The immersive sim is more an RPG storytelling style.

[@Phasma_Tacitus]

Immersive Sims actually aren't all that focused on storytelling, although it helps, the real deal with Immersive Sims is player agency to tackle problems as he sees fit with the many tools that are given him, with no one only way to solve it. It's about having a real sandbox where you can interact in many different ways with something and those interactions can breed different and unexpected results, no need for pre-programming. This is called emergent gameplay, when the mechanics inside a game are organic and work by communicating with one another through some basic law that reigns over all things. Many modern games have been following in Looking Glass footsteps, I think some of the best examples of this that are pretty recent are The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild and Red Dead Redemption 2, that are full of micro-interactions that allow the player to create and play with the many tools that are given them.

[@locksmith4707]

Well 'immersive sim' was always more of a design philosophy rather than genre, these were some core principles that people from Looking Glass Studios and later Ion Storm kept in mind while making these games. As for themes and narratives: no. Deus Ex was revered for its innovation when it comes to merging different game genres into one cohesive whole, open ended gameplay and design space that allows for continuous modding to this day. Theme and narrative wise the only thing it did that got praise on these fields was unwittingly predicting future (no WTC towers in NYC panorama because of developer oversight, theme of surveillance though it came from taking typical cyberpunk tropes known from Neuromancer and similar works). Narrative and theme wise Deus Ex was nothing more than 90's B movie meets Xfiles in thematic cyberpunk wrapper (literally anything major from cyberpunk you can think of is present here in some form).

[@Gnarrkhaz]

I agree that the genre should try to reinvent itself. I don't agree that the new Hitman did it, because i don't regard it as the same kind of game as all the others. Hitman builds upon the Hitman series, which has always been an entirely different thing. Also, you really should have mentioned Eye: Divine Cybermancy.

[@MrSamadolfo]

😒 agreed, Hitman series is cool af but I feel like hes a shill for the game. Prey is where its at, just give us more of that, forever n ever 😍

[@jerrodshack7610]

@@MrSamadolfo Prey was AWESOME

[@Defeater33ify]

Didn’t know all these games were immersive sims or even what immersive sims were, but these are all some of my favourite games.

[@kasra8255]

A cool little easter egg doesn't hurt. Basing your entire game around that easter egg is mental.

[@noshow]

Good video. I think of "immersive sim" to be more a of design philosophy than genre, but you do a good job outlining that here.I suspect by applying the design principles to broader genres would solve the problem of hewing to close to the looking glass games. I do think you left out a few games, MGS 5, S.T.A.L.K.E.R., and Far Cry 2 all take immersive sim design ideas in fresh directions (at least for the time they where released) in much the same way Hitman did. Have you tried Stalker or Far Cry 2? Also how did you not love Prey? I personally think that is the best of the looking glass style games.

[@Robert399]

I don't agree about STALKER. It's a great game (SoC at least) and I love it but I don't feel it's systemically driven more than any other open world shooter. Your only real interactions are shoot with assault rifle or sneak slightly closer and shoot with assault rifle. Yes NPCs can fight wildlife and anomalies can kill both but the player can't really leverage those interactions. It's more just you stumble across a boar attacking a bandit or a dog caught in a vortex every now and then.

[@Albert-Freeman]

MGS 5 is a sandbox game, you can't even interact with the world itself like in an immersive sim. Both STALKER and Far Cry 2 are just open world FPS games, in both games there is always only 1 way to aproach a mission, their worlds aren't even that much intractable. Far Cry 2 has the fire system, that's it.

[@guillaumefigarella1704]

dude prey was really good

[@ArvelDreth]

It wasn't a reference to Fahrenheit 451, Warren Specter said that was a common misconception.

[@PunkishPenguin]

Lol you were so wrong about prey. That game is too big for people to appreciate

[@GoodTubeProductions]

I feel like the 451 might be referencing the scene in farinheit 451when the main character’s wife is watching interactive television, and this interaction is taking the place of real human interaction... which is kind of ironic for immersive Sims to include.

[@UncleDeadly1031]

Randon Dupont A cool idea but unfortunately it’s just the Looking Glass office code and was not a reference to the book in any way, despite what the video says.

[@adams13245]

I've always been confused by that. Immersive Sims are about taking a new technological medium to its heights, but F451 is about new technological media being a cornerstone to an oppressive dictatorship.

[@10gamer64]

@@adams13245 No, the media could be better, it's just the society in Fahrenheit 451 dumbed down media so much that no one wants depth, that is what it is about. "Digests of digests"

[@adams13245]

@@10gamer64 Then why didn't they do that to all media, books included, instead of burning them like they're inherently smarter than television?

[@10gamer64]

@@adams13245 They do, the society censors everything deep, the reason you don't see tv shows burn is because I am fairly certain the government there controls all tv/radio stations. And doesn't a character (The English Professor) basically say "Old movies were as deep as books"?

[@omarhasan3163]

I think one of the more considerable issues likely were the system requirements at the times they were made. Considering with thief deadly Shadow was a extreme resource hog, and the lack of rope arrows and swimming is the result of time constraints and a rapidly depleting budget

[@put1996]

I would add "Age of Decedence" as a Diablo camera Immersive Sim. The most impressive thing is that the coolest thing and some ending is hidden and can only be accessed by "failing" some tickbox quest. Because you fail a certain quest, the story got move forward in different direction, and thus making you able to access new content that aren't just 'bonus area' but a part of the big narrative.

[@srottfaen]

Age of Decadence isn't a Immersive sim as much as its a classic CRPG. It has waaay more in common with the original Fallout or Arcanum, which were some the games that inspired it, than it has with any ImSim.

[@BloodyRomero]

godbless you, Harvey Smith.

[@frankdelgrosso8297]

Showdan. Best villan ever!!!No game prior to it and none after can I think of which made me angry as Showdan in System Shock 1. I could not put that game down until I beat it because of her. Immersive sim's are the only first person action games I even enjoy. You summorized quite well what about them makes them such a different experiance from other action games. I am not so keen on the newer ones though, they feel very dumed down compared to the old ones. Uusally relying entirely on one mechanic as you go to alternate option. I miss being really creative to overcome chalanges as opposed to shrug I guess I better stealth through again.

[@irjayjay]

Eidos, only one "I" there.

[@fen1x_64]

I love Prey

[@atlas8827]

prey is great

[@shiftyjim4138]

Me too my man. Me too...

[@elpascalmods7384]

Most underrated game of 2017, and the best one too. Probably even the best immersive sim to date, actually.

[@MrSamadolfo]

😏👍 Hell Yeah, it feels like they cobbled together all the good ideas from past sims and threw it all together, its a homeage 😍

[@ginge641]

Mankind Divided does have a much better world than HR. Every building has an interior with a unique story to it.

[@danthomas4198]

wow so there is a word for the games I like. Immersive sim. I've played throught Thief 1-3 (and 4), Deus Ex 1-4 (including 2), Hitman 1-5 (including absolution), Tenchu, Metal Gear Solid. Never knew there was a specific name for that sort of thing but it makes sense now.

[@AdamBartholomew]

I would agree for the most part that they don't HAVE to pay homage to Looking Glass. But here's the thing I think of there being different degrees of this. Blatantly ripping from one of their games isn't good but if you were inspired by them that's different you can still pay your respect

[@H3Vtux]

You have great content, you deserve WAY more traffic than you are getting. A shame the way youtube's suggestion algorithm works. Keep up the great work!

[@MrSamadolfo]

😏👍 a definite must pickup Prey 2017 on any Summer or Winter Sale, pu the Mooncrash DLC when its on deep sale as well, its kinda like a sequel to the Bioshock series & System Shock series & Dishonored series, its highly optimized so u can run it on older cpus & gpus on low settings, it has all the stereotypical things that makes a sim a sim, lots of things to do and to explore and very replayable as u can play again & again from the beginning and try out a different set of skills and tactics 😍 .

[@pelgervampireduck]

so, your idea is basically "for chocolate cake to sell it needs to remove the chocolate part"?. the 451 games are awesome, they shouldn't become something they aren't, I see the looking glass influence and style as a good thing. the reason deus ex 2 failed was because they tried to dumb it down and make it more mainstream, they tried to turn it into a generic dumb console shooter.

[@George_M_]

Thank you, some criticism of Prey. I feel like most critics had their nostalgia goggles on too much.

[@EdupopKONG]

I'm glad you gave a warning about eidihoss, because that one made me wriggle in my chair.

[@mrpinekindasneaky]

Hmm... No mention of Stalker .. And not only him ofcourse , but its a great immersive sim game , with just sick atmosphere.

[@stupidrainbo]

Woah, what was that outro song!??? So creamy! So nice!

[@joeld.k.7652]

That's the Prey Soundtrack.

[@discojoe3]

I hope Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines 2 sells well. If it does, we might see immersive sims getting made again. It's sad that Deus Ex and Dishonored (and probably Prey) are all on hiatus until the demand is there again.

[@sharr3766]

Curious to know what is his opinion on Prey now. I think his statement "Prey is just system shock 2, it goes nowhere with it's mechannics, and is what we've been playing for the past 18years" is utter trash and shows how much is misunderstood the title

[@charlesgeringer8489]

Fun video, I love immersive SIMsand few pople have remarked on how the settings "Hang in the balance". I do however have the follwoing critics to it: You put too much enphasis on the "451" thing, it is a funr efrence, but not really integral to the design as your video seem to suggest. Ultima Underworld is nowhere near being the first RPG presented in frist person. You neglected to mention Arx Fatalsi, which is probably the msot direct sucessor to ultima underworld. Dark messiah should be mentioned it is nto an immersive Sim, but it did try to get teh philosophy of the imemrsive sims, and focus it on a more linear action game ,and those applied principler esulted in a game that is still lauded as one of the best melee and enviromental first person combat ever. Also STALKER shoul be mentoned, if nothing else it´s a-life system is ahead of any other I know.

[@Xalmuster]

As far as I'm aware, UU1 was the first 1st person 3D RPG of its time. Most old PC RPGs were in first person, but UU was the first to take it into a 3D realm and let you explore it with such freedom and interactivity.

[@OLee82]

3:37 - The code is not a reference to the Fahrenheit 451 book. Warren Spector mentioned that it's only chosen because of the office door code. It can be heard in this starting at 12:32 kzbin.info/www/bejne/l4W5c4auo9ycedE

[@connorforce01]

3:33 It's not a reference. It's just the door code to their office.

[@Seatanic]

I recall hearing that from a Warren Spector interview. not sure which one

[@connorforce01]

Yeah, this one: kzbin.info/www/bejne/l4W5c4auo9ycedE At 12:50 he says it's not a reference, just the code for their office.

[@richardhewit215]

System Shock didn't sell well because at the time of release, most people couldn't afford the hardware to run it.

[@tomaka121]

Interesting videos, they deserve more views

[@BinaryDood]

Realms of the Haunting most underrated Immersive Sim (not rly but almost)

[@grayaj23]

Nailed it. I was a huge fan of Looking Glass and its progeny up until Bioshock. That's when I realized that "true successor to system shock 2" just meant a rehash of tired mechanics and tropes, watered down to make them more accessible. Don't get me wrong, BS/BSII and BS:I are good games, and I thoroughly enjoyed each one -- once I realized that the deeply creepy, sinister apocalyptic sense of dread was not going to make an appearance. I was not aware that Prey 2017 was made by the same people, but it fits perfectly. Signs we live in a broken universe: Twin Peaks getting canceled, System Shock 2 being a niche cult classic that more people claim to have played than actually did play it.

[@Necroxion]

why exactly 451 is usually referenced: Fahrenheit 451 is the granddaddy of dystopias. it became 0451 in order to mimic real-life PINs that usually needed four numbers

[@Necroxion]

Dottoman 1984 is the grandmommy of the dystopian genres: they take after the mom

[@FirstnameLastname-py3bc]

In this case, LGS team numerous times had answered that question, 451 had nothing to do with Fahrnheit 451 and just was a door lock in their office

[@JaredPinkham]

VTM:Bloodlines has a very large number of these elements, missing the direct developer linage and consequently 451 call back. I would very much like to see your take on the game.

[@jw6588]

By this definition, isn't Zelda BOTW an "immersive-sim", aside from the third, somewhat arbitrary component of your definition?

[@moi9709]

Wow, am I the only one who loved the reboots of deus ex (human revolution and Mankind Undivided)?

[@val26874]

If free-form levels, interacting consistent systems, and lateral thinking are the staples of the immersive sim, does that make Spelunky count as one? What about Invisible Inc? Is there some sort of relationship between roguish games and immersive sims?

[@ShahStark]

I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment of prey. I don’t think you actually made full use of either mimic powers or the flop gun to say they went no where. And why’s being system shock 3 a bad thing?

[@dannycagefire]

Excellent video, keep up the good work. You just made a sub

[@Visigoth_]

I enjoyed the eairly games listed but I didn't know they were categorized as "Immersive Sims" I need to learn more about Immersive Sims... So would Skyrim or something like Watchdog be considered an "Immersive Sim?"

[@mikeryan1043]

Nope, I will chronologically list you all Immersive Sims that I am aware of. Also, I disagree with some of Adams views, so the list might be slightly different, some controversial entries are in brackets: -Ultima Underworld 1/2 Pretty barebone in some aspects compared to newer Immersive Sims but its pretty much their ancestor. -System Shock 1 -Thief 1 The Dark Project -System Shock 2 -Thief 2 The Metal Age -Deus Ex 1 -Arx Fatalis -Deus Ex 2 Invisible War -Thief 3 Deadly Shadows -[Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines] Unsure about this one, because unlike other Immersive Sims of its time, the combat systems give you very little choices and there is not much emergent gameplay. I would say its more a "normal" RPG -[Dark Messiah of Might and Magic] Not sure about Dark Messiah. It has lots of emergent abilities and some more open levels but all in all its more on the linear side and pretty combat centered. -[Bioshock 1/2] The first two Bioshock games have quite some elements of Immersive Sims (B2 more so than B1), as in somewhat systemic gameplay and emergent abilities/mechanics. But the world isn't that interactive, emergent gameplay is rarely present, they're somewhat linear and very combat focused. In my book, I would consider them "pretty complex" FPS -Deus Ex 3 Human Revolution -Dishonored 1 -Dishonored 2 -Deus Ex 4 Mankind Divided -Prey -Dishonored Death of the Outsider -Underworld Ascendant (Maybe don't play that one) If a game isn't listed I most likely don't consider it an Immersive Sim. A systemic game isn't automatically an Immersive Sim, at least for me. Maybe I should define what makes an Immersive Sim in my opinion: 1. Systemic mechanisms 2. Emergent gameplay 3. Interactive World 4. Player agency These are the most important. But also: 5. Intricate, twisted Level-Design (to support player agency/choices) 6. Responsive first-person controls 7. Full player control in (almost) every moment 8. Physics engine As a consequence, they are focused on rather highly detailed and interactive, but smaller open worlds or maps. There can be solutions resulting of the systemic/emergent gameplay the developers didn't even think about. In general, the philosophy is: Let the player discover its own solutions and keep the problems rather simple, so there aren't many fail stages (like insta-fail if detected). I don't consider as Immersive Sims: BOTW, MGSV, Skyrim/Fallout, Hitman or DOS2, although these incorporate quite some of the defining elements. Then there are games like Far Cry 2 or Stalker, which don't contain most of the important elements (but are still great games). From what I understand, it's general consensus that either System Shock 2 or Deus Ex 1 is the best Immersive Sim to date. If you ask me, it's either Dishonored 2 or Prey, with Prey pretty much being System Shock 3, while incorporating and improving on almost every aspect of SS2. It's much slower paced than Dishonored 2 and very exploration heavy. It also has a fantastic story. Dishonored 2 is more action driven (if you want it to), but you can also play it stealthily/non-lethal (which is barely possible in Prey). You can also explore a lot. Player movement throughout the levels is much faster and if you wanna be able to pull off some amazing kill combos or insane moves, sometimes movie-like, this is the game for you. Watch some StealthGamerBR videos of D2 or DOTO (but he is insane, so don't let it discourage you). On the other hand, the story is garbage in every Dishonored game, but the focus is almost exclusively on gameplay, so I don't bother. That's also where I disagree with Adam. In my opinion, D2 and Prey did so much for the genre and are the best amongst it. The most important people, if you wanna dig deeper: Warren Spector, Harvey Smith, Raphael Colantonio, Ken Levine, Richard Garriot Also, the history of RPGs (especially cRPGs) and Immersive Sims is heavily intertwined, which goes all the way back to the Ultima series. As I see it, there was a crucial point where those two genres diverged, which was Ultima VII/Ultima Underworld. Ultima 7 is basically the ancestor of all modern cRPGs while Underworld (initially only a spin-off from the Ultima series) is the ancestor to all Immersive Sims. The closest thing to Ultima 7 you can play today is Divinity: Original Sin 2 (DOS2), which is also the most (only to this degree) emergent/interactive/systemic RPG I know and thus has a lot in common with the Immersive Sims. I highly recommend playing it, but it's brutal. Upcoming Immersive Sims I am aware of: Cyberpunk 2077 (looks like an Immersive Sim, Trailer contained 0451, but the Devs say it won't be one. Let's see about that.) System Shock 1 Remake System Shock 3

[@NecrotekLabs]

Yet, here I am 6 months into developing my own immersive sim.

[@mene1in]

How's that going?

[@SpartanWolf222]

Outside of Hitman Season 1 and Season 2, one big problem with most of these immersive sims that I'm starting to realize, and I say this as a fan, is that they lack challenge or a sense of difficulty. These games all offer tons of systemic choices that really don't make major changes to the game. (This is why Human Revolution always felt more engaging in decisions rathter than the original Deus Ex besides some cutscene changes.)

[@mikeryan1043]

You should get Dishonored 2 and push all difficulty settings to maximum. There are like twenty-something options. Like Leaning visibility, leaning constraint, guard general awareness, guard vertical awareness, guard alert cooldown time, mana recovery delay, footstep noise, item wheel time freezing, enemy attack frequency in combat and tons of other settings with 2-4 options each. With all on maximum its not that easy tbh.

[@shawnjackson3764]

SE should remastered DX1 and DXHR the Halo 2 Anniversary way. DXIW would probably need more of a Redux edition with modified levels, new aesthetics and new gun mechanics. ^^

[@lilshrimp0628]

Well it’s a good thing bioshock 4 was announced

[@AhbibHaald]

It's in later stages of development

[@YourSkyliner]

I'd love these kind of games if it weren't for the stealth. I don't understand why this has to be an integral part of it. Dishonored's combat mechanics are so good that they feel like they don't even belong in a game that punishes players for not playing stealthy.

[@simondasilva]

Stealth is a part of the 'solve the problems however you want' design principle that is core to the genre. Many want the option to avoid combat and therefore that choice is provided. Although I can agree that punishing players for not following that specific choice is not the optimal way to go about it.

[@GREATGAIWAIN]

Eeeehhhh... Yeah... as much as it pains me to say it... Maybe 0451 should maybe be put to rest... I don't know... I am still fairly new to the immersive sim genre. I only discovered Deus Ex a few years ago. I feel like there is still so much untapped potential in the Spector school of sims but you are completely correct that more ideas need to emerge to contextualize the mechanics. Introduce new ones.

[@Tommoslasguitaros]

Eidos is pronounced [Aye- dos] not Ayedios :p

[@skirk248]

I really like the LITTLE call backs. But the ammount they usenow is just enough to strangle the fans of these games

Awesome, thank you very much!

[@Fifthforge]

would you consider Cyberpunk 2077 part of this genre?

[@xrqdioqctive369]

that's what i was thinking

[@AhbibHaald]

It turned out as a mediocre action adventure game with RPG and looter shooter elements

[@ScrubbyBubbles]

OK this is a good retrospective thanks

[@angel__king]

Shodan (is that spelled right?) well it’s reveal looks like something out of a Disney ride

[@wesleymassey6914]

Is breath of the wild a lite immersive sim. I feel it draws elements of it

[@mikeryan1043]

I would say no, but it almost incorporates every defining element.

[@adams13245]

Levels that encourage you to combine powers in emergent ways, and find your own solutions? Yes, it is very much an Im Sim!

[@AhbibHaald]

It isn't

[@adams13245]

@@AhbibHaald Why not? Because it isn't 1st person?

[@AhbibHaald]

@@adams13245 it just isn't an immersive sim

[@OB.x]

I still think Dishonored 3 is coming. It takes time to make these games, meanwhile Bethsda let them experiment with Deathloop and....well, lets not talk about the other game that came out this year. (It's litterally listed as an immersive sim, how is redfall that?). I think they're developing Dishonored 3, but are taking their time with it. Some reason Wei Gei? (Tyvia) i think is where it will take place, from hints in the books/comics.

[@FractalPrism.]

no one: AMAoG: enjoyably clunky controls

[@Anicca88]

Vaping a bowl and watching your vids is basically like a philosophy trip down the gaming lane.

[@Robert399]

I feel like this video is basically a rehash of these ones (right down to specific phrases you use): kzbin.info/www/bejne/oZPchYJ3oc2Ffs0 (The Comeback of the Immersive Sim) kzbin.info/www/bejne/sHLXcqyvmN1gq7s (0451) kzbin.info/www/bejne/gqmac4qXrryoZpo (Do We Need a Soulslike Genre?) That's not a problem but, if I'm right, it'd be nice to acknowledge Mark Brown's videos.

[@TheMCChristian]

“and 4-5-1” Music theorists, where you at?

[@joshuathomas3153]

5 months late. I was like "What does jazz have to do with this?"

[@monishvj5172]

hitman a immersive sim? Edit:after playing it, I guess it is an immersive sim style game.

[@Duchess_Van_Hoof]

Ah... So THIS is where Linkara's extremely creepy outer god The Entity got its inspiration from. I should probably play Systemshock.

[@hideshiseyes2804]

SPOILER FOR ORIGINAL DEUS EX ------ The first time I played Deus Ex when I discovered that Anna was evil and had a confrontation with her, I threw a grenade at her and ran away. Had no idea if the game expected me to fight her or keep talking to her or what, I just acted entirely on impulse. I didn’t even know if she survived. A couple of scenes later other characters were talking about how I’d killed her. One of the best experiences I’ve had in a game ever.

[@andrewmcclean823]

Breath of the Wild is my favourite immersive sim.

[@AhbibHaald]

It isn't one

[@rngwrldngnr]

I don't have a PS4, so I haven't been able to play Red Dead Redemption 2 yet, but it feels like the Simulation elements people are discussing move it in this direction. Would anyone who's actually played it agree?

[@Xalmuster]

I have, and I absolutely agree that it took a lot of cues from the design philosophy of immersive sims. I knew it the moment you go into the first house, and you are free to look around and scavenge for supplies and food and whatnot, and the game just lets you explore and you could open every drawer, every door, every closet and wardrobe, and interact with so many various items, which you'd get to do everywhere across the game world. From there, the game introduces so many game systems, like physics and chemistry systems, so you have to be mindful of what clothes you wear and the temperature, of eating (even though there's no hunger meter but for maintaining the three main stats you have to work with), of taking care to being downwind from animals when hunting so they don't pick up your scent, of cleaning your weapons with a wipe and gun oil so that they are in good working order, and so many more other examples like that.

[@scorpioneldar]

soooo appernetly i just want to play the same game forever.hit man was litterally the only game in this video that I did not Love playing although mankind divided was the only one of these that i liked that did not get a second playthrough. and prey but that was because i borrowed a friends copy not because i did not want to.

[@qihaoliu3631]

People keep ignoring Kingdom come deliverance as an immersive sim

[@AhbibHaald]

It's an rpg.

[@ardenbelfry]

really love all these games

[@k.constantine]

You didn't mention VtMB and I wouldn't go as far as to say that Invisible War and Deadly Shadows were horrible, they were better than the "revival" games in many ways.

[@UncleDeadly1031]

K Constantine VtmB while great is not an immersive sim.

[@Duchess_Van_Hoof]

Damn, now I want to replay Human Revolution. Then I will be upset that I can't pick up more than one of each gun and that the bosses are frankly dumb, and as a result stop playing. The game really looks amazing and it feels fantastic moving around the cities. It is a lot like Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines, for obvious reasons.

[@rpbp4468]

Surely the reason immersive sims don't SEEM to catch on is that cos its very single player, there isn't always a way to gain exact feedback??

[@matricious]

Would immersive sims work from a top down perspective??

[@Ciber2k]

It's not a 100% immersive sim but you can check Heat Signature it's like a systemic Hotline Miami in space.

[@Kainte]

Matricious 1 It could work in any perspective, really. When you boil it down, an immersive sim is simply a game that has many dynamic systems that interact with each other to allow multiple emergent solutions. From a design perspective, this just means cultivating a balancing act that allows for multiple solutions for progression. in the indie market, this design philosophy has gone in favor of rogue-likes, which is a similar genre in many ways, but opts for random generation over finely crafted level design. While the similarities lie in encouraging solutions based on character build, the ultimate difference is that Immersive Sims insist on player agency rather than randomization. I think the reason we haven't seen Immersive Sims in other genres is due almost entirely to current accepted trends. Immersive Sims are hard to balance and get right, so most people don't even try and instead decide to retread known ground.

[@SSchithFoo]

Me wants everything good in Gothic + Arx Fatalis + Severance The Blade of Darkness

[@UnrealPerson]

...Dark Souls?

[@gingerwhale871]

good point about Hitman and the ImSim needing to evolve, but claiming Prey doesn´t have an identity? Thats not only bold, its wrong and I´d say even stupid.

[@the3dotsguy...610]

Immersive Sims are basically only game I play...

[@mikeryan1043]

Try Divinity: Original Sin 2 if you haven't. It's a cRPG but very heavily influenced by the player agency in Immersive Sims and thus very interactive/emergent/systemic. So you have something to play while waiting for a new Immersive Sim every once in a while ;)

[@adams13245]

You bring up interesting points. From my perspective I was very excited to play Dishonored 2 and interested in Prey. Thing is they come with DRM besides Steam and so I feel that purchasing them at full price would be asking for more of th. I think it would be nice if we could create a site dedicated to less DRM intensive games, but without pirating them. Anyway good video and good analysis of the games.

[@jerrodshack7610]

Pretty sure that's what GOG does.

[@tomsimpson357]

Is there potential for New Vegas to be shoehorned into this? I feel like it offers a fair few similar mechanics/themes.

[@RogueBeatsARG]

You forgot Stalker :(

[@2strokedesign]

Stalker isn't really fit into the immersive sim design(neither does most of the games listed in the video), the idea is that unless you die the game just goes on, you get options to play around with, a goal and they don't hold your hand, you won't be presented to a game end screen no matter what as long as you are alive - that's what makes it immersive, it's your story, ideally it makes you feel like you execute your own plans, not the game designer's. In Prey if you can kill an important character it will only affect the story(literally anyone, I've never seen anything like that in any game - fist time seeing January? Hit him with the shotgun, a few minutes later you can actually talk to December. Just shot Igwe after Dahl's surgery? He is like "wtf.. well, I guess you had your reasons" - it felt like no matter what I do, no matter how hard I try to break the story it will react accordingly. It was the most immersive game I've ever played), while in Dishonored you get a message about why that was a bad thing and have to reload the game - same with Deus Ex. Bioshock was smart(or cheap, depends on how you look at it) about this, you simply never get a chance to kill anyone important, they either take away your weapons or don't let you in the same room with the characters at all - not an ideal solution but miles better than what DE or Dishonored did, from an immersion standpoint. While in Stalker you can kill anyone if you try hard enough(same with the Gothic series btw) without getting a game over, you won't be able to progress any further in the story so really the game is over at that point.

[@killmonster5952]

how could you not include arx fatalis?

[@ginge641]

Fucking hell, that Deus Ex fov is just awful. The guns look like they're being balanced on Adam Jensen's cybernetic nob.

[@sellus495]

At 2:16 about Ultima Underworld: "It was the first RPG presented from a first person perspective". That isn't correct, is it? What about Wizardry and Might & Magic series? Also first Ultima titles were in first person inside dungeons.

[@FirstnameLastname-py3bc]

None of them were 3D. In fact Ultima is one of the first first person realtime 3D games... It was so mind blowing that their tech demo in 1991 impressed some guys who in a year made a game called Wolfenstein 3D

[@GreenEyedDazzler]

I love 0451

[@mike22240]

Would you consider Subnautica to be an immersive sim?

[@ineptwizzard]

No. But also is this a pun on it being under water?

[@codylego]

How is shooting a horde of bad guys to save your brother unconventional