The Most Evil Woman Of The Norman Period? | Mabel de Bellême

[@helpinyerdasellavon]

Great video on this medieval lady I didn't know about. It's amazing to know about lesser known historical figures. Mabel witnessed brutality, confronted and dealed ruthlessly with difficult situations and events considering the circumstances she was in back in those days. Excellent work as always. Thank you 👍🏻❤

[@nelliethursday1812]

Please read the Medieval Babes series it is historical fiction somewhat but there are 12 books in the series by J P Reedman and you are introduced to very amazing little known women. I guarantee you will enjoy them all

[@lilacgirl-z8w]

Sounds inciting.

[@helpinyerdasellavon]

@@nelliethursday1812 thanks for the recommendation 😊

[@RavenIdril2966]

I wonder how many languages she could speak?

[@madelinevanderbunny607]

She sounds like an awful person but no more so than the other powerful people of that time, as such I do think that the way she's been tarred is quite unfair.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

That's exactly it! 😂 I totally agree - Mabel definitely wasn't a nice person, but she also wasn't unusual except for being female.

[@Butterflypegasus40]

​@@HistorysForgottenPeoplestrong woman who didn't need a man were usually villianized.

[@lilacgirl-z8w]

​@@HistorysForgottenPeopleI know of worse women than Mabel.

[@Butterflypegasus40]

Did Mabel ever harm her own children or grandchildren?

[@waverider8549]

Same goes for Olympias, Alexander's mother. She didn't do anything that he didn't and yet he is "The Great" and she is "The Harridan"

[@molybdomancer195]

Killing someone on their way to church was very cruel in that era as the soul would not have the chance to clear itself of sins.

[@lilacgirl-z8w]

I can't believe it wasn't considered a punishment of excommunication.

[@jefferyeis9287]

@@lilacgirl-z8w Women were considered property and had very few rights outside those granted by their husband or father.

[@roberthudson3386]

@@jefferyeis9287 Women were property owners in their own right, often wealthy and powerful and the daughters of powerful families especially so. Don't fall for the feminist lie that they were "property".

[@maryschade1906]

Hopefully she had been to confession.

[@SNP-1999]

Her son Robert of Beleme was also infamous for his perverse, sadistic cruelty, even in an age renowned for its brutality.

[@jonmontgomery2109]

This is slander propagated by those loyal to the usurper Henry the first, who hated Robert de Belleme because he was a fierce friend and supporter of Henry’s rival and brother, Robert Curthose, the rightful heir to England and Normandy. Henry usurped the throne while Robert was engaged in the first crusade.

[@RavenIdril2966]

These 2 brothers need their own segments.

[@Rwthless1]

I think she was more rapacious and vindictive than she needed to be. If she just helped herself to someone else's hereditary estates, she got what was coming to her. William of Normandy pursued her killers because his own wife was pretty vindictive too and he didn't want anyone coming after her.

[@Butterflypegasus40]

I agree with you to a degree.

[@madelinevanderbunny607]

Admittedly I had never heard of this woman before. Thanks!

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Thank you as always! 😊 Yes, she's definitely (unlike, I admit, a lot of people I cover) a good example of someone who would have been famous in her own time, but is virtually unknown now. I think when her family's power and presence diminished, coupled with the less than complimentary description of her by Orderic Vitalis, that cemented her disappearance is history.

[@TrueFork]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople I thought the name was familiar, then I remembered the UK television series "Robin of Sherwood" where the baron Simon De Belleme was an evil sorcerer, played by Anthony Valentine🤣

[@dead2802]

There was a history written about William the conqueror. and as a boy how he was afraid of a neighbor land owner named Tovis Belleme who was very crurl.

[@gonefishing167]

With the passing of the centuries you could easily see that name passing down to Boleyn. Possible would you know. Didn’t Anne’s line come down through Edward the 111? Jane Seymour’s as well wasn’t it. Those Plantagenets bred like rabbits! Thank you so much, interesting woman 🙏🙏👵🇦🇺

[@lilacgirl-z8w]

Was Mabel an ancestor to either Anne Boleyn or Jane Seymour?

[@RavenIdril2966]

I like to know that too.

[@MarionN-w3d]

Or Bellamy.

[@dead2802]

@@gonefishing167 Where did you here That? How interesting. You could threaten teachers and mean classmates that you would call evil Aunt Bellames ghost up at Halloween to come and punish the kid! Thats leverage! 😳😁

[@EchosNarcissis]

Clearly she saw this question. The comment got a heart directly from her. I guess she just didn't want to answer it....

[@LadybugPrinzess]

Wait, what did she do wrong? She killed ONE guy and that makes her "the most evil"?

[@lilacgirl-z8w]

In fairness rival families were trying to do the same.

[@rhondahuggins9542]

She behaved like the other royals in power at the time...not 'lady-like'.

[@jamiemohan2049]

It was mainly that she was taking land off of people, lots, lots of scheming. Leaving them homeless and starving. She was more greedy than sadistic. Her father was more brutal than her. But unlike her brothers she inherited his ruthlessness. She was also considered to be the driving force between her husbands actions. He appears to have been very easy to control. When he remarried to a nice gentle woman, he basically took on her way of life.

[@RavenIdril2966]

Sounds to me she wore the pants in her marriage.

[@jonmontgomery2109]

Orderic Vitalis, the weasel who wrote most of the libelous accusations against Mabel, was a monk that was patronized by her rivals. She was a strong woman who was faithful to the Duke and defended her lands with her own hands.

[@jamiemohan2049]

I dunno why you said her father wasnt villified and his actions viewed as normal. He was hated and even ran out of his lands for a time. He was not well liked or respected at all. His behaviour was definitely not viewed as normal for high born men and he was considered highly immoral.

[@jjhh320]

Doesn't fit the pay tree arkee narrative...makes the self-aggrandized slave-song of women's plights seem more oppressive if you don't mention how reviled the man already was by society

[@RavenIdril2966]

@@jamiemohan2049 no woman is condoning him for murdering his wife at a church.

[@whylogicalthinking]

⁠I think you’re confusing yourself

[@jamiemohan2049]

@@whylogicalthinking how?

[@risin4949]

Hi Family, Mabel is one of mine too.

[@MagnaMater2]

Ah, that was why the 'enemy' in that old Robin-Hood-seria was Baron de Bellême. I always wondered why those French aristocrats were drawn into the story.

[@RavenIdril2966]

England possessed a lot of French lands that by the tudor period lost all claim.

[@MagnaMater2]

@@RavenIdril2966 I wondered specifically about the Bellême because I didn't know they were Norman. I thought they were 'french-french'.

[@giselematthews7949]

Women have been the world's scape goat thru out time

[@RavenIdril2966]

I can agree with you.

[@lilacgirl-z8w]

Men blaming women for their sins since Samson and Delilah.

[@SafetySpooon]

@@lilacgirl-z8w Since Adam & Eve

[@sarahbritt1234]

Well said.

[@nelliethursday1812]

Thank you very very much for doing Mabel 🎉🎉🎉

[@LadyCat183]

Ooh, this will be good. I have never heard of her by this name and I generally know most of the "forgotten" people

[@Butterflypegasus40]

I like to know how this narrator discovered this woman?

[@kidcarroll7312]

@@Butterflypegasus40I suggested. Came across her in a book abt the House of Normandy.

[@lilacgirl-z8w]

I hope we learn more about the normandy people who conquerored england and their predecessors the saxons.

[@susanhale6197]

Mastitis (infected mammary duct) is a common malady for breastfeeding women- and women who had lots of children often never stopped lactating. The old remedy for mastitis is “Warm compress and a hungry nursing baby”- and the blocked duct may become unblocked and let loose pus- but the child would not eat it- and if they did, it would not kill them. So, if she did not have her nursing child with her, she may HAVE asked to nurse a child. But the “instantly died” part would have been added by the spiteful scribe.

[@abbyonyoutube]

She's so fascinating! Great episode and I definitely feel like she did all or most of the evil things she's accused of, but was a product of her time (and more specifically, her abusive father who murdered her mother). Having land was everything and she was her father's heir, so she had to embody the role of a brutal lord and was unfairly condemned for not acting like a pious lady. Religious men wrote women as angels or demons and nothing in between so Mabel's legacy couldn't explore her shades of grey. The poisoned infant story, though, that's next level dark, even for her time! I know Orderic Vitalis may have been unfairly influenced by the St Evroul monks who obviously disliked Mabel if she ate them out of their hospitality, but I also haven't figured out quite what his angle would have been to have written such horrible lies about her so many years after her death, especially since her lands passed to her son without any challenges IIRC. Maybe I just want to believe it's at least based in truth because I love drama 😇 Fantastic work! Thank you for highlighting this incredibly complex figure!

[@Butterflypegasus40]

This woman would make an interesting tv show.

[@juliarichter2227]

Great Stories about a woman who is vilified by later historian sources. Speaking about sources: I know it's difficult to find suiting pictures of historic figures and I see you solved it by using AI images. But I would suggest to write with it an information such as "Mabel could have looked like this" or "AI generated picture" . Before beeing slautered for this comment, I have to add that pictures are powerful and shape our imagination. on the other side there are so few sources, that we can't be sure, how a specific person has dressed oder looked like. I hope you understand and consider my thoughts of it.

[@silliaek]

I'm really tired of seeing all the ai. At least include some contemporary images.

[@chrisball3778]

I'd not heard of her before, so thanks for this introduction to her. She basically sounds like most 11th century nobles- violent, ruthless and vengeful. She just got portrayed as a monster when the men doing the same thing were falsely idolised as great warriors and conquerors. I.e. probably an absolutely horrible lady, but basically a product of her environment, and no worse than the absolutely vile male warlords that surrounded her that get remembered much more positively.

[@ShannonStevens-gl7le]

She seems like a product of her environment, bless her. She seemed to be ruthless, but they were different times, and what you did to thrive and survive has little resemblance to modern society.

[@Butterflypegasus40]

I'm glad I didn't live in her neighborhood.

[@brigidspencer5123]

Psychopathy has been with us since the beginning. Growing up in such an environment makes cruelty seem normal. Interesting given how powerful the Church was, that such cruelty was common. Epigenetics will provide more answers as time goes on regarding inherited trauma and perhaps psychopathy.

[@dead2802]

@@brigidspencer5123 Dont think we r going to be around that long!

[@mattturner6017]

"Was Mabel de Bellême truly that evil?" Me: Maybe. Let's find out. "Her father liked to blind and mutilate his enemies..." Me: Not a great start...

[@Philip-bk2dm]

Way cool. Such great architecture for such twisted minds. Humanity probably owes its survival to the truly forgotten - the (majority?) of the decent souls at the bottom of the pile. There must have been Levellers even then. Almost no one wants to be lorded over. What a crazy time to be alive if you were one.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

So much of early medieval history (and partly why I love it 😂) is that it seems so completely chaotic and accepted as such at the time. That's why I always think back to that sketch from Monty Python where the two peasants are scrabbling in the mud, and have decided to reject society of the time for an anarchic-syndicalist commune!

[@RavenIdril2966]

I do love medieval castles and abbeys.

[@Philip-bk2dm]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople That was funny. And I had no idea that they were such great equestrians. (Easy boy, easy.)

[@lilacgirl-z8w]

Who were the better horse riders? The Danes, the Saxons or the Normans.

[@SyIe12]

👍⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐Great video on this medieval lady I didn't know about. Thank you very very much for doing Mabel

[@altinaykor364]

I want to ask you a question and I really wish for you to answer because I need it💗 among videos you have made on women, which one of these historical ladies do you believe had the most fairytale-ish lifestyle? and I don't mean in Disney way, I mean in dark and messy way! if it's hard for you to guess, here are my examples as details: more than one husband, a love story which has happy ending for a short time and doesn't last forever, not so much luck with other times, constantly in conflict and ultimately an unknown kind of ending which can be assumed as tragic

[@risin4949]

I have been doing my family history for many years. When I discovered that I was descended from Mabel, I googled the name. I was greeted by "even by the standards of the Normans, the de Belleme family were bad". None the less, although I cannot condone bad things, blood is thicker than water and I have had a place for Mabel in my heart ever since.

[@BeeKool__113]

I agree with many here that she was villianized by the patriarchal history because she was a woman in power. Women in power go against the traditional narrative of what was expected of them. Had she been a man doing any of these things, no one would bat an eye. Although, I don't agree with some of the things she allegedly did; I see her very much a survivor. She did what she felt she must for the continuation of her family. Anyone in a state of power especially in these times do not have clean hands.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Oh, I absolutely agree that the things she did - and indeed, this goes for the men of the time as well - was completely for the survival of their family and lands. That's why her father not getting on with his son Arnulf (if Arnulf was still alive at the time William Telvas had to flee) was such an enormous event, as a family split could spell utter doom. I also think some of the things she was accused of almost certainly never happened, such as the whole incident with the baby!

[@Butterflypegasus40]

​@@HistorysForgottenPeopleshe clearly wasn't a pious woman which helped tarnished her reputation.

[@lilacgirl-z8w]

Mabel was lucky in husband clearly.

[@jamiemohan2049]

Nah, she was a greedy woman. There were other women like her that were respected. Matilda of Flanders, Eleanor of Aquitaine etc. Mabel was greedy, the favourite child of a brutal man. She was described as being like her father even as a girl. There were horrible women in history, they cant all be victims of the patriarchy. She was hated by most who encountered her. She was scheming to take peoples land and did. Leaving a lot of people homeless and starving. She was far more greedy with taking lands than others. Also controlled her husband who was considered to be easily controlled. When he remarried to a nice sweet woman, he took on her way of life and did what he could to make her happy. Mabel WAS bad, this crap of every woman being a victim slander in history is just ridiculous. Most women who did gain land and titles were not hated, slandered or viewed as evil. A spade is a spade, Mabel was evil and immoral. Things are probably exaggerate but doesnt mean they dont give us an idea of the truth.

[@paigeandmiamagicbeautygirl2988]

@@jamiemohan2049 yes but womans bad deeds in history are often seen as a millon times worse that men . woman in power back then had be tough as they where vulnerable yes some women where and are evil but she is the same as a lot of men in those period who did similar things. why is she considered more evil them just because of her gender they did the exact same things but there isnt a video about them

[@TheFiddle101]

Very interesting. Thank you.

[@kidcarroll7312]

One of my suggestions. So excited to see this.

[@RavenIdril2966]

You are very lucky.

[@sharihoward5372]

Mabel was my 31st great Grandmother.

[@kayjay1able]

and my 26th!

[@jefferyeis9287]

Mabel was my 30th great-grandmother

[@mysticallyme]

Hello Cousins! my 27th

[@Ohtaryn]

How did y’all find this out?

[@brigidspencer5123]

I don’t believe you!😊

[@kathleenmccrory9883]

I wonder if she had been less powerful or wealthy if she might have then been accused of witchcraft.

[@nancymoore1240]

Very good point !!!

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

That's an interesting point, and it definitely might have applied had she lived a century or two later. In the 11th century, at least in Normandy, there was still a curious combination of Christianity and older superstitions existing alongside each other. Both William the Conqueror and his wife, Matilda of Flanders, were recorded on at least a few occasions as seeking help from a witch or fortune teller of some sort. Witches were just about still allowed to exist within a political sphere if they helped whoever was in charge, but it was very close to the tipping point where the church would condemn them.

[@kimm.8800]

That time period was before the witch trials. There is an old idea that the witch trials took place in the middle ages, but they actually took place in the 1500s and 1600s, centuries after she lived.

[@kathleenmccrory9883]

@HistorysForgottenPeople That would be an interesting video. Royals who used soothsayers, witches, etc.

[@Butterflypegasus40]

​@@HistorysForgottenPeopleif she were accused of witchcraft the accuser would have been beheaded.

[@lfgifu296]

For the question, what do you think was the best English (later British) dynasty? To study and in terms of success👀 My favourite to learn about is, unsurprisingly, the House of Wessex, but when it comes to judging their success as rulers I rly don’t know! The Plantagenets are usually cited as the best, and they had great kings like Henry II and Edward II, but also terrible ones like John and Edward II😭

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Ooooh.....do I have to just pick one!? This is too hard. 😂 I do agree that the Plantagenets are a brilliant dynasty to study, but I especially prefer the earlier dynasty rather than the later, more famous part. I think other than that, I find the Stuarts quite fascinating, as they had a good mix of good and bad, Catholic and Protestant, party people and puritans. They also had a big impact on many changes in England and Britain. They would definitely not be the most successful, though! 😅 Hmm....most successful? I'd say that would possibly be - as much as they are trotted out all the time - the Tudors? They had a huge impact on history, current events, religion, society, and they were successful in terms of leaving their mark, having the first two female crowned regnants in English history, and for having one of the England's most loved and well-known monarchs, Elizabeth I. Other than them, I would perhaps throw the Hanoverian dynasty in here. They lasted almost 200 years, went through a variety (of largely unpopular) monarchs, but managed to remain relevant. And as much as I hate Queen Victoria, she was also a very successful queen in terms of keeping the royal family popular with the British public. And in theory, their dynasty never really ended, since her descendants are still on the throne today.

[@RavenIdril2966]

​@@HistorysForgottenPeopleI prefer the house of Windsor.

[@Nicholas-mi2vt]

We all know who was the most evil man of the Norman period William the conqueror

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

I mean, she got on really well with him though, so that doesn't always make it any clearer in Mabel's case! 😂

[@Butterflypegasus40]

​@@HistorysForgottenPeoplelords who supported William the conqueror share equal blame.

[@macker33]

Right is right and wrong is wrong, just because someone is a woman doesn't mean she should be excused, circumstances at the time is not a mitigation.

[@patnor7354]

Yep, shocking howthe feminists respond. And very telling...

[@overcomerbtboj]

I totally agree i’m a woman and a lifelong student of history but if we can call out the cruelty and tyranny of men like henry VIII then we need to keep that same energy for evil no matter the gender- evil immoral behavior and deeds have no gender and i’m always disappointed to see so many women excuse what they would call evil just because it’s a woman

[@FelixstoweFoamForge]

I first met Mabel in George Shipway's novel "the wolftime", an old classic, which I first read about 30 years ago. Still go back to it every now and again. Mabel was certainly a nasty piece of work in that story, so it's nice to get an accurate picture of her. Can we have a follow-up on her son Black Robert please?

[@anweshabiswas1483]

I thought that evil women only existed in tudor period , they also existed before was out of my mind. Intresting ❤❤❤❤

[@Butterflypegasus40]

Evil women lived in Bible times.

[@anweshabiswas1483]

@@Butterflypegasus40 Yes Bible also had many evil women

[@Sarafimm2]

She was raised by a pious mother and by a ruthless father. She was a strong woman and acted as she had seen her father and brother act to try to keep her lands, increase them, and keep her line going. Despite all her efforts, her line ended, and she was slandered for it. Most likely, the clergy in the area used her as an example other women should avoid. Wonder what that did for the women in the region, when women with fortitude might have worked out better for all.

[@nancyM1313-Boo]

I enjoyed your video of Mabel..

[@nelliethursday1812]

Please do Joan Greenville she was wife to Roger Mortimer England's worst traitor she went through heck having nothing to do with her husband's machinations she withstood the storm 😊

[@RavenIdril2966]

I didn't know roger mortimer had a wife. Thanks for enlightening me.

[@simonparkinson7078]

George Shipway’s novel “ The Paladin “ is worth a read if you want to hear more about Mabel and her ruthless son Robert. Although fictional it is built around a framework of real people and events.

[@daemonartursson5952]

Writer, Richard Carpenter when writing Robin of Sherwood in the 1980's created the evil Baron Simon deBeleme. A (fictional) descendant of the Countess deBeleme

[@irislorikeet4287]

I'm confused. You say she lived in the 18th century but the title gives her birth and death. Died in 1037 ? ? Or 10 thirty something.

[@Butterflypegasus40]

Madel must not have cared deeply that her father murdered her mother.

[@soxpeewee]

1) It's not proven he did it 2) What's she going to do about it

[@cmn6695]

That "suckle" story is bizarre! Poor child if it is true! Maybe it was streptococci.

[@jonmontgomery2109]

More likely that she was poisoned by the monk that told her she was abusing his hospitality and it transferred into her milk.

[@RobbinGraham]

hey, the Norman period was BRUTAL. it was truly a game of thrones IRL. i can't judge her actions based on my limited, first-world modern day knowledge. she was most likely no more vicious and manipulative than anyone else back then.

[@MichelleBruce-lo4oc]

Hi, awesome live history video I enjoyed it. How are you doing? How is the weather where you are? I'm doing well and so is my cat Benjamin. He turned eight years old this month. We have lots of rain in Ontario Canada. In the next video in the future could you do Elizabeth Seymour and Dorothy Seymour. They were sisters to Queen Jane Seymour. Henry the eighth third wife. From the 16th century. Have a great day see you next video 😊

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Hi Michelle, and happy birthday to Benjamin! 😊 We're doing okay here, we've had funny weather - sunny and hot, then pouring with rain. Typical British weather! 😂 Thanks for the suggestions as always, I'll add them to my list.

[@Butterflypegasus40]

I didn't know Jane had sisters so thanks for the knowledge.

[@MaryLov113]

How did she change time? All she did was live off her father, use his connections to steal land, and then use her husband and sons to continue stealing land, then died. Family became broke.

[@janearcher3834]

I really enjoy the information in your videos, but it would be great if you could superimpose the names and places of some of the places you mention. French is a difficult language to pronounce and I simply cannot understand the names pronounce sometimes. (I am fluent in both English and French)

[@Lost-In-Blank]

Agreed !

[@elizabethnavarre7972]

Excellent, well done. Great pronunciation. I have one tiny critique. The medieval period, roughly, extends from 500 to 1500, again that's a generalization, but generally accepted. Calling the 11th century "early medieval" is not accurate, it's more in the middle or even the height of the medieval age. Even the term "medieval" is falling out favor because of the implication that it's just this random millennium between the Classical Period and the Renaissance when nothing of value happened and people just sat around in their own filth, believing every superstition that came by, and dying of plague. Especially if one considers a less euro-centric view of history, many important events and advancements were taking place during that time. Thank you for highlighting that major events were going on and that, just like the Countess compared to those around her, it was just as brutal as any other time period in history.

[@caiusofglantri5513]

One of the major works of history for this era was written by an English-born monk who adopted the name Orderic Vitalis when he joined his monastery in Normandy. Mabel and her family killed the patrons of Orderic's monastery, so they received a particularly bad write-up from him. The Bellemes' didn't found or support any writers of history themselves, so we never get their side of the story to balance things out. Saying that, murdering people under your protection according to the traditions of hospitality, while not unheard of, were shocking crimes in those days. There were accepted and unaccepted ways of slaughtering your enemies, and poisoning your guests is definitely the former!

[@zackhalter9571]

She sounds like a strong woman that was just trying to survive and succeed in that world.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Pretty much this! Don't get me wrong, she definitely wasn't a 'good' person, and as the old saying goes, there's no smoke without fire. 😅 But she was brought up with an example of brutality that worked for the time she was alive, and had she been male, would not have been viewed in the same light. As an example, her brother Arnulf was also known as being vicious and cruel, but it was accepted of him.

[@lilacgirl-z8w]

​​@@HistorysForgottenPeoplethe Saxons, the Danes and the Normans were bad apples.

[@invisibleman4827]

Possibly, but I don't think there's a single historical example of a woman doing something terrible where someone doesn't go "it's not her fault, she was a victim of the patriarchy" which infantilises women a lot.

[@normbale2757]

People should be judged by the standards of their time. Seems she still failed'

[@michaelwynne7513]

One person's strong is another person's weak.

[@rebekahlafever333]

❤Thank you❤

[@lloroshastar6347]

It's always hard to know what to believe really. Like the early Caesars, seemingly revelling in cruelty but then a lot of what we know about this is written by sources who aren't entirely trustworthy and likely had reason to lie. Part of me though just wishes these things aren't true because of how utterly abhorrent they were, like was is reported to have happened to the children of Sejanus on orders from Tiberius. But then we hear about such cruelties being carried out in modern times, often by serial killers yes, but occasionally by so called 'pillars of the community'. I've not forgotten for example what Ruby Franke the former KZbinr from Utah did to her own kids, she was held in high regard by the Mormon Church and she committed unimaginable cruelty towards her own flesh and blood. I don't know what it is that leads humanity to do this because I simply do not possess the capability to commit such acts. But then often enough perfectly well adjusted members of society will turn into monsters the moment they have control over a military force, their degrees of separation from the atrocities they have others do for them, or atrocities by people they fund or support militarily, seem to act as a comfort blanket. They didn't push the button that killed a bunch of civilians in a Middle-Eastern country, they just gave the act their backing, so they feel like they can be sheltered from the consequences of this cruelty, but the result is still the same.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

You make a really good point about the internal conflict between not wanting to believe something when we have little evidence, and yet needing to rely on it at the same time. I'm similar in that I always try to see if there are other points of view - especially when there have been biases through history for certain groups of people - but at the same time, there's no smoke without fire, as they say. I do absolutely think Mabel did at least the believable things (so the poisoning of a rival, yes; the poisoning of a baby through her boob, not so much), but at the same time, we then have to consider whether that was unusual in itself for the period in which she lived. It wasn't if you were male, so therefore her story was exaggerated due to the fact she was female and women were not seen as capable of these acts...when in fact, Mabel's entire upbringing had taught her exactly how to do that. It's like the famous psychological study where a 'man in a white coat' told perfectly normal members of the public to keep giving shocks to a man (who was acting, of course) until he seemingly had a heart attack. They were then absolved of all responsibility by being told this white-coated man took the responsibility as they had told them to do it. It was used as a hypothesis for what happened during WW2, but it applies to a lot of scenarios.

[@lfgifu296]

Didn’t know of her! Gotta love the debate “was she rly ruthless or is it misogynistic history?”🥲

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

It's always such a good debate! Because obviously she did ruthless stuff - women who didn't got a free ride in the history books of the time - but it's the level of it, and how it stacks up against everyone else, mainly the men. The fact she got on well with William the Conqueror says a lot though, I think. 😂

[@lfgifu296]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople oooh yes- if you get on w William the Conqueror out of anything but fear of death I immediately suspect you💀

[@RavenIdril2966]

​@@lfgifu296 I love that you could go one way or another about her character.

[@bunnymad5049]

Ah, the complex woman - the word "witch" is making a comeback in the west and is still widely used elsewhere.

[@virgiljjacas1229]

But don't anyone forgot who they "really" were. The hypocrisy of the Roman Catholic Church force them to play the survival game.

[@RavenIdril2966]

I'm glad I'm not catholic.

[@seasea12]

????

[@SNP-1999]

She was also allegedly a witch who practiced black magic ceremonies including human sacrifice ! Just saying, mind you, I didn't know her personally! 😂

[@LouLou10000]

Can't say I sympathise considering they were in England suppressing the English and it was the Norman's who started the trouble with Ireland in the first place

[@LTPottenger]

Beautiful but deadly. A true femme fatal.

[@RavenIdril2966]

Wonder if Mabel was a friend of matilda of flanders?

[@lilacgirl-z8w]

Does anyone wonder if William the conqueror ever asked Mabel to do an assassination on his behalf?

[@cocoaswann2095]

She sounds like one of those wealthy people who gave money to the church in order to cover up the True Depravity she held in her heart and soul (thinking she could buy her way into heaven or something similar). Dante Aligheri had a character in The Purgatorio who was like this.

[@jamiemohan2049]

Mabels mother was also murdered by her father, William. They were walking to church when she said something along the lines of loving god more than him. He then strangled her infront of everyone. I dunno if Mabel witnessed this, even if she did she would likely be too young.

[@RavenIdril2966]

@@jamiemohan2049 does anyone know why he killed her?

[@jamiemohan2049]

@leeannproctor2966 Apparently, she said something he didn't like. We are not sure exactly what, but sources say it had something to do with religion. Apparently, she said she loved God above all else, and he killed her.

[@alicesarapa7683]

I am descended from Mabel and Roger, from 3 of their children.

[@Mr.Capricorn11]

She's my 28th great grandmother. Twice. She's an ancestor for a lot of people 😅

[@RavenIdril2966]

Is she the ancestor of the current royal British family?

[@Mr.Capricorn11]

@@RavenIdril2966 yep!

[@poopoosplatter99]

Most important take : don't have drinks with anyone named Mathilda

[@dianewalker9154]

Basically, she was a powerful and successful business woman for her time.

[@thisis.michelletorres444]

She was not just privileged but apparently also smart and courageous. It is not hard to imagine why men in lesser positions hated her. Very interesting.

[@admiralbenbow5083]

She got herself murdered. Very intelligent.

[@christianfreedom-seeker934]

I don't think anything that was written of her was biased or hearsay because even in the 1000's AD, Court proceedings were transcribed in Latin or French. There is a good chance she (or her other family members) ended up before the King's Judge on quite a few occasions when they harmed other lordly families. Also remember the Age! This was all PRE-Victorian!!! Before the Victorian age, MANY people saw ruthless lords and highway men as heroes! Many people likely looked on her with admiration! "Might makes Right" was the rule of the Age.

[@phillipmoore9012]

Pretty far back, required more work on my tree. Mabel de Belleme my 26th GGM through daughters Sybil and Matilda.

[@poopoosplatter99]

The story of her attempting to poison Arnold is almost the exact same story of King Offa's daughter.

[@chestersleezer8821]

In the end she lost her head since the brothers of Hugh Bunel got into her castle and killed her while she was coming out of her bath.

[@DarkKing009]

And now I must subscribe

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

It's great to have you here! 😊

[@aaroncarson1770]

She doesn't sound that evil for the time.

[@laguzl]

Not much is known about Mabel and her motivations outside of what could be considered biased and exaggerated accounts from medieval chroniclers, who viewed women who held power and influence with suspension and mistrust. It is entirely possible her reputation is nothing more than the result of gender stereotyping and prejudices of the time.

[@caribbeantigress78]

Strong women are qualified as “Ruthlessly evil” “bloody” and every name of the book just because they lacked submissive traits: Remember “Bloody Mary” she killed less than 1/16 of her father’s Henry’s, but got labeled “Bloody” and her murderous, vindictive and abusive father reduced by “6 wives” 😏

[@terenceblakely4328]

So there are no evil woman because... patriarchy?

[@caribbeantigress78]

@ Those are the feminists…

[@thewildqueen4976]

She's my 29th great grandmother.

[@brianfuller757]

Her son Robert of Beleme was easily worst than Mum but he learned from her.

[@jefferyeis9287]

Mabel was my 30th great-grandmother

[@soylentgreen6082]

She was far worse than the video suggests. These are just the edited highlights. She tortured her peasants for kicks.

[@ashleymarks3726]

I thought no one could outdo Elizabeth Bathory, but this woman takes the cake!!

[@RavenIdril2966]

I wouldn't go that far.

[@evinnra2779]

Back in those days the rumour mills began to spread stories of cruelty and fearless power grabbing viciousness about anyone - male or female - who had the potential of later becoming a leader. The point in spreading these rumours was to scare the socks off all those who don't want to join the club that supports said individual with leadership potential. Incredible lies have been propagated often based on nothing but wild imagination, but the practice of this kind of survived until today . There are people who profit handsomely from this kind of 'image building ' . Elizabeth Báthory was most likely a victim of these image makers, she died before her name could have been cleared or before she could become a leader of Hungary. Of course I can not testify to the fact that she was completely innocent of all that she's been accused of, but I think she was quite harshly treated by history.

[@annepickering8966]

Half the time the hygiene was called poison as they weren't exactly clean

[@Butterflypegasus40]

Does anyone know who's to blame for spreading that stupidity?

[@yupper4030]

​@@Butterflypegasus40Right! As though they were unaware of soap and water and basic hygiene

[@yarrowwitch]

Normans descended from Vikings, the ladies from Shieldmaidens?

[@apace903]

Her family name sounds very similar to one of King Henry VIII Anne. Anything there?

[@thomasdoggett9919]

Maybe she's born with it.

[@Ann.AndAngela3998]

Lets see . People say a lot of things about women.

[@jerry12314]

Ridiculously bias video. She was notoriously cruel and sadistic but you spin or downplay it because she's a woman that she had to "act tough" because the world around her was full of people like her anyway. There were many people like this (in her case it likely ran in the family) but that's not a good enough reason why she stood out and why she got the ending she had.

[@RavenIdril2966]

All the normans were in the wrong let's not forget.

[@elizabethford7263]

She reminds me of Cersei Lannister in GoT

[@dyejohn1905]

probably not, but she's a person we know about.

[@Elora445]

Was the evil? Quite possible. Do we know that for sure? Nope. She doesn't seem that different from the rest of her family members. The only difference is that she's a woman. Must have made some people angrier than normal. She wasn't the meek, pious woman they idolized. Hence, according to them, she must have been evil. Not so sure one can trust those sources.

[@kevinjamesparr552]

Why were the ladies of that time far better looking than now

[@RavenIdril2966]

They didn't have cigarettes or soda back then.

[@Trancymind]

They were more fit, motivated and tougher.

[@MarionN-w3d]

Only the well off ones .

[@TheCatsofVanRaptor]

I saw this and can only think maybe it’s maybelline

[@3618499]

😩 THIS is yet another warning to beware of gossipers and talebearers…. Testis in uno flasks, in nullo fidem meretur or Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus: “ A witness false in one thing deserves trust in nothing. False in one thing, false in all. ” - Latin Proverb “ Consider the source. ” - Old Saying

[@poetmaggie1]

Evil is Evil and the degree they are evil doesn't matter, all evil is going to end up in the same place.

[@Butterflypegasus40]

I'm glad I don't have their sins.

[@pontiacfan76]

This probably one of those stories that shouldnt be judged my todays standards. It doesnt make her a good person but still. How many things we do now that would be twisted in the future when standards change.

[@SSRT_JubyDuby8742]

Like deployed 👍

[@DakotaFord592]

❤❤

[@Lost-In-Blank]

Maybe tell us some stories that you aren't about to immediately debunk.

[@eilenekellogg-ki2br]

We dont know all of the hidtory of that time.history. Im dure there were mass murders.back then too. Serial killers.

[@carltanner9065]

Great Grandma was a wonderful lady....wasn't she😊😝😝 I can thank my lucky stars I never inherited any of her fine qualities😝😝

[@chriskoch1241]

What part of "Norman" do we not understand?😂

[@wrangelinhabitant161]

Watch or read about Fredegunda and Kriemhild😂those two we're truly sick wibes😂

[@billmago7991]

Arnold stole a pig and away he run