The most important lesson in layout design.

[@leehanna4929]

Every layout design you do is a worthwhile teaching one. Thanks for sharing this simple one, Peter.

[@derekalexander4030]

That was such a great example of what a waste of space the island layout is compared to a around the walls layout and it was a great walk in design. Thanks Peter.

[@chrisfarr2114]

Great video. Lots of commonsense. Great voice over. Clear and eloquent. I wish you had been one of my lecturers at Uni back in the 1970's ! Excellent points made.

[@martin.brandt]

Love the idea of a staging yard just half hidden. Great operation, great optics!

[@_steffinwolf_]

Fantastic. Love the process of the design morphing into the final (nothing is ever final) layout. Cheers!!

[@vincenthuying98]

Dear Peter, such an interesting subject! Can imagine when you are approached by a new customer, it’s at first finding the balance between the customer’s wishlist, the available space, the level of difficulty of the build (when the customer chooses so) and more aspects combined with the knowledge you’ve acquired, the quality of advice and service you offer. From there it can indeed be a hard nut to crack when, as in the example, the initial footprint simply isn’t large enough, or in this case ‘thinks the other way round.’ It also must be very helpful to have obtained the constructor’s and designer’s eye, with which you’re able to point the customer to the storage space under the layout. If only for that simple reason the ‘shelf design’ makes much more sense than the ‘island’ one. Nevertheless, I gather it is a sensitive process, in which you want to serve your customer as best as you possibly can. Think the plan looks awesome, especially for the amount of operational opportunity you were able to provide and the different scenes this design will bring to life. Cheerio

[@Conn653]

Loved this style of presentation. Makes more sense to the everyday model railroader 🙂It brings many possibilities forward to the viewer 🙂

[@mpeterll]

I'm glad you liked it. What specifically did you prefer in this video over what I normally do?

[@TheTrainFreak]

Thanks Peter for sharing your process on all the input it takes going into a design for someone else. New and some experienced modelers do not realize how much time goes into just doing a design that one fits the space and two includes everything (or mostly everything) that they want on their layout. I have my clients give me a two sets of items. First on is a rough not to scale grid of the space they have for me to work with including obstacles and pictures to give me a better visual. The other item is that prioritized list of what they want and soon as I get my bench-work figured out, then I start applying the mainline, then the spurs, and yards based upon their list. I also try my best to make sure that walkways aren't less than 30" and some bigger clients need 36" and that there aren't any hard to reach area's that includes tracks but that's easier said than done when it comes to the turn back loops. Thanks again for sharing! - Jason

[@NorthernOhioRailroadAction]

Excellent update layout looks fantastic keep up the great work looking forward to seeing your next video soon thanks again and have a wonderful weekend

[@TairnKA]

Decades ago a friends dad had this incredible layout in their basement (bought house due to the basement), when you open the door (center of wall), on the right there was a path, with train displays against the wall, on the left, past more displays there were steps leading into a booth, for the father to control the trains and/or watch over his friends keeping to their schedules. Once a month, I believe, his father would invite friends to run various trains, they would receive schedules for trains they were assigned, coupling, uncoupling, transfer cars, engines, fuel, water, etc... looking out from openings (lakes, buildings, mountains) spread out amongst the setup.

[@theyettifromcanada3688]

Great video! I was watching it and realised that I need some windows in my garage for sunlight to better light up things rather than be in the doom and gloom. Thanks for posting the great video!

[@smcnish1droid]

Thank you for another great video. I found it extremely helpful because I am in the process of trying to design my layout. This made me think a little differently than I had before. Thank you again!

[@mistaecco]

I recently was looking into videos about industrial design, and i think the youtube algorithm got a bit confused... Ive never watched any model railroad content in my life 😂 That said, I used to go to shows with my dad as a child, and always loved it. Now with an adult's perspective, it was interesting to watch this to learn a bit more about what went into making those immense scenes! Thanks for this unique diversion to my day - maybe I'll see if my parents still have my N guage gear stored somewhere!

[@RichardKuivila1947]

GREAT videos of "Perfect Ville" PRISTINE !

[@chazzyb8660]

How nice to see your old layout again, happy days! I do hope you will feel able to restart it at some time, but I realise you are having fun, and hopefully making a good income, by working on 'your' other layouts for clients. The problem solving and chances to trial other ideas must be very stimulating in itself. And great to see a 'realistic layout', both in individual labour and cash outlay terms, for a change. Great to see how your analysis of the space available has offered 'the client' a far greater challenge, that is why one goes to an expert in the end. I love your super complex mult-level layouts, as an exercise, but I don't aspire to create models of such daunting complexity myself! Thanks again.

[@mpeterll]

It's not often I get hired to design simple layout like this one. Usually, the reason I get hired is that the client wants to fit a lot of railroad into a space that is too small to do it simply, requiring some complex thinking.

[@derekalexander4030]

That might be the 2nd most important lesson in layout design, lol.

[@markbridgwater]

Well done, Peter. Wise advice indeed, as well as looking beyond the clutter in a garage.

[@riogrande5761]

I digested John Armstrongs book Track Planning for Realistic Operation and designed my own layout to have maximum running for the space I have. I used 11x17 graph paper, a scale ruler and a compass. The layout plan and progress can be found in the AtlasRescueForum in the Project Archive section.

[@ThePaulv12]

I had this in my toilet. I must've read it 40x from cover to cover I reckon. 101 track plans is free now BTW.

[@riogrande5761]

@@ThePaulv12 I had 101 track plans as well, but found Track Planning for Realistic Operation more useful for mid to large layouts.

[@kite7214]

VERY good thought process. Thank goodness I opened this video. You gave me much food for thought. K

[@TickholeProductions]

Well done Nige for getting out there in those conditions to grab some video of the movement.

[@jacko9759]

This is a great design😮

[@robs4516]

I'd bet money that the client got that first shape from Malcolm Furlow's HOn3 layout built in the 1980's. The footprint is an exact match for it. The plan you ended up with looks great. Wish I had that much room.

[@mpeterll]

I assume you are referring to the San Juan Central. I remember being captivated by the photos of that layout, and then very disappointed once I studied it in more detail. The staged photos showed trains as long as 8 cars, but the track-plan couldn't function with anything longer than about 3 (the operations episode at the end of the series confirmed that observation). From memory, I believe Furlow's layout was a little smaller (about 10x10 overall) with mostly curved benchwork and a cut-out in the top left corner - although a pretty good match, not an exact one. Actually, the client got his footprint from a design in a plans book with the main yard removed because he didn't think he had room for it. Of course, removing the yard meant that the remainder of the design was totally illogical.

[@greghayes9118]

That’s given me a few ideas. Thanks for sharing the experience.

[@jonruehle9186]

So what exactly IS the most important lesson in layout design? Is it to design around-the-walls rather than island-style? Is it to not get stuck with the space you have; see if there's a way to re-imagine the space and maximize it for your railroad? Is it to just let Peter design your trackplan? Yes, I believe that last one is it! :-)

[@creamwobbly]

Yeah I hear a lot of very patient explaining what he did, but no indication yet that any fundamental design is incoming at any point this year. I gave up. I'm tempted to give away all this historic Triang and Hornby stuff to some kid who will see how fast they can yeet them off the rails.

[@AndrewGasser]

Great video. I loved your creativity in how you expanded his space.

[@colinfitzgerald4332]

My experience with garage layouts is the accumulation of dust. Some sort of screen or barrier between the vehicle space and the railroad should be constructed. This track design looks like great fun to operate.

[@jonruehle9186]

WORST environment ever for a model railroad.

[@Haymarket47]

@@jonruehle9186Sometimes there is no choice

[@allenkotlan3606]

A typical furnace filter on intake side of a 20" box fan, always running, off in a corner does wonders in reducing dust.

[@allenkotlan3606]

​@@jonruehle9186Try a layout in a hay loft of an old barn!

[@PotentialAutist42069]

love seeing your process. maybe ill contact you to design my next layout in my new space. def subscribing to this channel

[@troysimpson9550]

Solid plan, as well as great advise! keep up the great work.

[@uncipaws7643]

Thanks, very inspiring. In my future apartment I assigned a room for the model layout, 3895 mm wide with a depth of 1830 mm on one side (to a garden door) and 2340 mm on the other side. I also try to do a 90 cm gangway. Total length of the room in the other direction is 3640 mm but I will use the other wall for a shelf and a table for various works (building kits, working on models etc). I think of a station along an alpine mountain line with an industrial branch (maybe a sawmill) and an engine shop (whether I find space for a turntable I'll see). The main station will certainly be along the long rear wall, it might have underground storage tracks underneath where I can park entire trains. I also plan a viaduct across a valley (as deep as the room's floor). Maybe two viaducts as the train also has to return from that side of the layout. Even though I own the place I plan to build in segments that can be moved out of the door (1 m wide if going via the garden) in one piece. I don't like the idea of having a big monolithic installation that's impossible to move out without completely disassembling it. But after moving in I first have a lot of higher priority projects so the model and hobby room is likely the last of the house to ever be "finished" (I know a layout is never finished).

[@RichardKuivila1947]

GREAT suggestions to client !

[@paulhayton3423]

Smart design as usual.

[@drewzdrew27]

As someone who has a 10 X 10 Room for an HO layout - i was looking forward to the smaller layout footprint! lol

[@mpeterll]

I only produce the plans that clients hire me for, and so far no-one as hired me for an HO-scale layout to fit a 10x10 room. Unless you are willing to accept extremely sharp curves, limiting you to short care and only the smallest of locomotives, you are pretty much limited to a "doughnut" footprint. I did publish such a layout a few months ago. Although it was for a space somewhat larger than yours, it could be cut down considerably and might be a good starting point for you.

[@drewzdrew27]

@@mpeterll Oh yeah, i get it! Got a whole layout setup currently. It's a "doughnut" footprint like you said - with 28" min radius mainline. took over the closet for a couple more feet on one side. Thanks for the response!

[@Siabot10]

My goodness what an excellent video and what a pleasure to watch. The things I appreciated (i) clear structure to the video (ii) excellent voiceover (no "ers" or "erms") (iii) succinct and concise presentation without intro music or swirling edits between slides. I wish others would learn from your video production skills, not just your layout design skills! The only question I had on the design was whether the reach across to the staging yard along the garage wall would become tiresome over time - I like to change the configuration of my trains regularly. That aside, I have subscribed and liked and look forward to watching more of your work. Well done!

[@mpeterll]

All the turnouts are easily reachable for maintenance from the two access openings. The expectation is that the staging yard will not be used as an active fiddle yard, but rather for parking trains. They will run over the railroad and exchange blocks of cars at the visible yard, thus their consist changes every session. without the need to reach over.

[@jamessutton9319]

Great video sir!

[@Michael-t3b5b]

The most important lesson is you can never fit as much track as you think you can

[@berenscott8999]

Expansion should be dual track.

[@thebops4180]

Make sure you have the money. 70% of layouts don't complete :(

[@gilbertporter4992]

How so complete? Many are still works in progress.

[@jacqueso8424]

@@gilbertporter4992 some can and has taken beyond 20yrs to complete, considering 1 individual has worked on it(John Allens layout(Gorre/Daphetid), here in SA most guys also go into that timespan. 1 man in Cape province and 2 in Natal that i experienced myself. The experts say people has to plan carefully what they do with their space to make their creation work. Well the experts are correct. Nothing worse than sinking feeling you messed up(much later) and your layouts functionality frustrates you

[@AFmedic]

@@gilbertporter4992 You are so right a lay is never complete. I'm 73 and one of the industries on my layout is expanding its operation by building a facility in another town (aka - on the other end of my layout). It has acquired the real estate (removed some unneeded storage). Now it's waiting for financial backing (aka my small VA pension).

[@HotRodRodney25]

another awesome layout video peter I wish I could figure out my new future layout plan

[@mpetersen6]

Rule #1 should be. "Do not bite off more than you can chew."

[@Keith80027]

Thanks for how you created this railroad.

[@ajkleipass]

While it's incomplete, there is a lot of meat on those bones to satisfy the imagination. And, surprisingly, the client didn't want a 500-stall roundhouse! That's usually a newbie cliché, is it not? Do you know if the client built the layout?

[@guaardsky4404]

Very often less is more, more realistic. Dont use several paralel rails, hundreds of turnouts

[@vikingsoftpaw]

A two track main line would be desirable.

[@mpeterll]

Only if you just want to watch trains run by. If you are interested in proper operation in a setting that makes sense, then only a large and complex layout suitable for long trains can sensibly include a double track main.

[@cncpgreatlakesdiv4896]

awesome thanks for sharing.😊😊👍👍

[@ngaugefouroaksstreetstatio6932]

excellent work as always

[@solutions2exist556]

It will not fit into your room no matter how much you want it to work. Period. But I cut a section of straight out.

[@jacqueso8424]

Am a little perplexed as to why the 2 access points are in 2 opposite corners? Are they meant to be "duck unders"? Though i believe everyone for himself on these designs and their reasons behind it, access might seem a bit restricted especially maintenance purposes. the staging yard being right next against the 1 wall you can take out 2 staging tracks. Im saying this because if you can touch the wall with arm not fully extended, then all will be good to do electrics, scenics etc. Jus my 5cents😂otherwise it appears it would be a great spread and looking forward to see it finished.

[@mpeterll]

On the right side of the plan, there is a minimum-radius turnback curve, resulting in insufficient space for a satisfactory access space behind the curve. Thus, it needs to be on the inside. On the left side, the curve can be a larger radius, providing enough space for the access opening to be on the outside and leaving a lot more space for scenery in front of it. Both openings are needed only for construction and maintenance of the turnouts in in staging yard. All operation will be performed from the walk-in aisle.

[@gerlandkent6377]

[thank, you for you're great video]👍

[@mattp1337]

I'd call that an ambitious but manageable first layout.

[@mpeterll]

Not his very first layout. The client has built a couple of 4x8's and a bunch of structure kits.

[@dennisbailey6067]

The less points the better.Single main will do the job.Plenty of sidings for industries along the main.At least one branch line.A mining branch.Hidden staging?

[@CFFollis_Disabile_DOC]

Dear mpeterll, wonderful video like all the previous ones! Just one question: What software do you use to design layouts? Thank you so much, see you soon!

[@mpeterll]

it's called 3rd-plan-it.

[@CFFollis_Disabile_DOC]

@@mpeterll Very, very Thanks!😉👍

[@musicman8942]

@@mpeterll That's Windows only right? Anything for us Mac users?

[@user-qr7ee2cp4y]

Computer design is the coolest thing to happen to model railroading, especially if you can run trains on your computer to fine tune your layout.

[@mpeterll]

I never bother running trains in the program, but I do always run them in my mind over the finished design. That's the best way to know if the track arrangements will work. I frequently see published layout plans where the designer hasn't done that, resulting in track arrangements that don't work well.

[@RichardKuivila1947]

WOW ! that's a $$$$$ layot !

[@nedmerrill5705]

Hello Peter. Will you be building this layout?

[@beeble2003]

He referred to the client being able to build the flat part, then the raised parts so no.

[@mpeterll]

If I was going to build the layout, i wouldn't have left the design after the rough design. The final design needs completing before starting on benchwork.

[@KitplaneEnthusiast]

Fantastic! Subb'd.

[@vumba1331]

Question, you have a 2 rail system for powering the engine, one rail positive and one rail negative, in my day you had to have a break in the line when you had point because a short could occur when powering a spur. Is that still an issue? Really curious as the setup looks quite sophisticated.

[@SuAlfons]

At a point where you would cross the polarity of the lines, you need to isolate them. When I was a kid, you had to isolate every loop you wanted to control independently (pre-digital)

[@vumba1331]

@@SuAlfons Indeed, the need for isolation. Given you mention 'pre digital', Is this not now a factor?

[@SuAlfons]

@@vumba1331 digital has constant power, locomotives listen for digital commands on whether to move and how fast. Analog just had variable voltage and everything on the same current would move when the power was non-zero. Waggons couldn't have constant lighting. On N-gage, variable voltage was the prevailing system it reversed polarity to drive forward/backward. On H0 gage in Germany, the Märklin system was prevailing - you switch between forward/backward by giving one (or two for ancient locomotives) pulses of over - voltage to the circuit. This would switch a Relais while the actual +/- polarity of the wires stayed the same for forward/backward

[@vumba1331]

@@SuAlfons Thanks for the info, appreciated. The constant power is DC right and then there is a decoder in the engine itself that responds to digital messages? Is the loco therefore 'bound' to the controller as is done with model aircraft, via a 2.4 mhz wireless controller?

[@eldoon2576]

@@vumba1331 I believe the constant power is DC, yes, but it is not bound to any particular controller - you often have one controller that you can connect to many locos and even sometimes other items (like turnouts), which is a stationary control system (or a remote that talks to a stationary control system) that then sends specific little pulses of higher or lower electricity to the item being controlled; when the computer on board detects this, it "decodes" the input (which is why digital controllers installed in locomotives are called decoders) and tells the train what to do, be it move forward or backward, play a sound, etc.

[@rickyeates9810]

Lots of wasted plywood using 3' wide sections. A modular design might allow for sections of the benchwork to be moved if necessary. I presume this is an HO layout.

[@mpeterll]

Not at all. I frequently build 3' wide benchwork and I always use all the off-cuts. Sometimes I even have to cut small pieces out of full sheets.

[@jonruehle9186]

I built my las benchwork "modularly" (I built it to be removed if needed). I ended up moving from TX to NC during mainline track laying. I gave all of the modules away as they would not work in the new space. So just build your railroad to fit the space you have. If you have to move, salvage turnouts, tortoises, structures, etc, and trash the rest. Start fresh and don't make the same mistakes on the next MRR.

[@allenkotlan3606]

​Sound advice when you consider the time & effort to shoehorn the old layout into a new smaller space,but it stills hurts to toss out good old layout.@@jonruehle9186

[@sammyweber5415]

I don’t understand, you have a whole huge room and you’re only dedicating half to a layout?

[@riogrande5761]

Must be the wife will only give him half the room

[@ricardojuricic9027]

he's talking of the garage and leaving door free for parking a car in it in the future.

[@michaelhband]

👍👍👍❤❤❤🚂🚂🚂

[@CrazyBob1357]

Layouts are never finished fool 😅

[@allenkotlan3606]

Keep the thought alive, so I don't feel bad or taking so long to build my layout(60% tracked, 10% with scenic) about 9 years construction, so far.